January 7, 2025 • 40 mins
As inconspicuous as novel can be, when one thinks of classic literature that unequivocally nails the power of sympathetic villains, landscape as emotional foreshadowing, and reflective monologues that are insightful and entertaining, Jane Eyre by Charlotte Bronte should be a firm contender on every list. Come and immerse yourself in the secrets of the beautifully understated, delightful Victorian classic.
Moderated By: Melissa Grace
Question: what is a story that has changed your life?
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Melissa Grace (00:01):
Hello and welcome to episode number nine of
Stories That Change Us.
I'm Melissa Grace and I'm herewith some of my fabulous writer
friends,
Micah Leydorf (00:13):
Micah Leydorf
Laurel Thomas (00:15):
Laurel Thomas., and
Kat Lewis (00:16):
And Kat Lewis.
Melissa Grace (00:18):
Today we are discussing Jane Eyre.
Micah Leydorf (00:23):
Kat's doing a little dance over here.
Laurel Thomas (00:25):
Happy dance, happy dance.
Kat Lewis (00:27):
Very excited for Jane Eyre.
Melissa Grace (00:29):
Um, it was written by Charlotte Bronte.
First published in 1847 underthe pen name Kerr Bell.
Which was ambiguous as far asgender, purposefully.
It was first person, the firstperson narrative that it was
written in was innovative forits time.
(00:51):
It's been translated into 50languages.
It is cited as an early feministnovel.
I have heard from around thetable that the 2006.
Is it a miniseries or a
Kat Lewis (01:07):
miniseries, a miniseries
Melissa Grace (01:10):
that that is the thing to watch because Rochester
and Jane are both strangely hot.
We don't know, so maybe it fitsthe book.
But, anyway, that I thought wasjust hilarious.
It was made into a Broadwaymusical.
And starting in 2012 is whatthe, my online source said.
(01:33):
But anyway, I just thought thatwas the most hilarious thing.
I would think that would begenerous.
I mean, I just cannot think ofhow you would make a musical out
of this story, out of this.
Micah Leydorf (01:48):
Oh, they made a musical out of Sweeney Todd, so
who knows?
Melissa Grace (01:51):
And also Les Miserables.
I mean, you know, there are,somebody probably looked at that
and said, what?
What are you doing?
But anyway,
Micah Leydorf (01:58):
that's true.
That's true.
Who looked at Victor Hugo's, youknow, like three inch novel and
said, you know what?
This would be great on Broadway.
Melissa Grace (02:05):
Yes, true.
Um, similarities to Bronte'slife.
She worked as a governmentgoverness.
Lowood's school was based onBronte's experience, which broke
my heart when I read that.
Her father sent her and hersisters away to the clergy's
daughter's school after his wifedied.
(02:28):
And Charlotte was only 5 yearsold.
The dastardly schoolmasterBrocklehurst.
Um, was based on a real guy.
And when Jane Eyre became asuccess, he recognized himself
in the character and she had towrite a formal apology to avoid
a lawsuit.
Micah Leydorf (02:48):
Wow.
Laurel Thomas (02:48):
My goodness.
Way to go.
Melissa Grace (02:50):
I was going to say that means she captured him.
She did it well Well, the formatthat we follow here at Stories
That Change Us.
We all have a favorite quote.
There are so many, like, everypassage is so quotable.
Micah Leydorf (03:06):
Well, since we were just talking about the
earlier years; because, youknow, this novel is kind of
divided into her childhood andthen her time as a governess and
in her time with Mr.
Rochester, kind of a couple ofdifferent sections.
My quote is maybe from that era.
I kind of like this.
So this is a little bit longer.
It says, no site so sad as thatof a naughty child.
(03:28):
He began, especially a naughtylittle girl.
Do you know where the wicked goafter death?
They go to hell was my ready andorthodox answer.
And what is hell?
Can you tell me that?
A pit full of fire?
And should you like to fall intothat pit and to be burning there
forever?
No, sir.
What must you do to avoid it?
(03:50):
I deliberated a moment.
My answer when it did come wasobjectionable.
I must keep in good health andnot die.
I love that.
Melissa Grace (04:01):
Well spoken.
Micah Leydorf (04:02):
So I felt like, you know, again, talking about
storytelling techniques, I feltlike that little exchange, you
know, just conveyed so muchabout her character.
And again, when you talk aboutthis being An innovation for its
time in the first feministnovel.
So you have this, um, Heroin whois not like, not like the
others, right?
That we read before, like What?
(04:24):
She speaks her mind.
She speaks up.
She's not following the,
Kat Lewis (04:28):
protocol, and for it to be like shown so early is
like a little girl.
You think about like Pride andPrejudice, where we start out
with Elizabeth Bennett, who isclearly a grown woman, who is
fighting against the norms ofsociety.
But like Jane Eyre, This girl isthoughtful.
She's intelligent.
(04:48):
She's not going to hide it.
She's not going to shrinkherself.
She's very, we see that at likeeight, 10 years old, right?
Yes.
Melissa Grace (04:54):
Yes.
Kat Lewis (04:54):
Yeah.
Melissa Grace (04:55):
And I feel like that Bronte does give us a very
good encapsulation of hercharacter there.
She's very pragmatic.
You just don't die.
Micah Leydorf (05:04):
That's how you don't think about it for a
second.
I guess that's my option becauseyou're telling me I'm naughty.
Kat Lewis (05:10):
And honestly, this is one of my favorite novels, but I
recognize how it can feel alittle bit like trudgery trying
to move through all of Jane'sthoughts to moments of like
clear action, right?
So, so there's two quotes thatstand out to me is, is my
favorite.
One this is coming from Mr.
Rochester's perspective, and hesays, every atom of your flesh
(05:34):
is as dear to me as my own.
In pain and sickness, it wouldstill be dear.
Your mind is my treasure.
And if it were broken, it wouldbe my treasure still.
And I love that becauseRochester is an unapologetically
moody character.
He's unapologetically depressedand apathetic, but I just love
how, Even in him declaring herimportance to him.
(05:56):
We still get like a really likea tangible taste of who he is
and the lens that he lives lifethrough.
But I also like, like theextremeness of that.
Like, you know, in a 21stsociety where women are like,
don't objectify me.
And like, there's more to methan my body.
Da da da da da.
I love how he focuses on likeher mind.
He's like, your mind is what Ifell in love with and your mind
(06:19):
is precious to me.
Yeah.
That stood out to me.
But then also my favoritest lineever.
In any, you know, I know thatthe Pride and Prejudice opening
line, a man, you know, in, inpossession of a good fortune
must be in want of a wife.
Okay.
Sure.
But I love, I love the very lastline of Jane Eyre, which is no,
(06:40):
I think it was like the firstline of like the last chapter,
which is reader.
I married him.
Melissa Grace (06:46):
Well, I, I have to say that even though we spend
a lot of time in her POV, shedoesn't, um.
We don't turn like I feel likethat's what that's kind of the
term I think of when I think ofrevisiting the same emotions
over and over and over again ina way that's really tiresome I
(07:07):
didn't feel that way when IFinished reading this.
I felt like it was all relevantand interesting information that
we were getting and not justrepackaging the same emotion
over and over again.
I Will share my favorite quoteand It is a another from when
she was a little girl very earlyin the book I could not sleep
(07:31):
unless it, and she was talkingabout her doll was folded in my
nightgown.
And when it laid there safe andwarm, I was comparatively happy
believing it to be happy.
Likewise, because it just statedfor us that she's hungry for
love.
Micah Leydorf (07:50):
Right.
And for the people who haven'tread it, she was an orphan.
The quintessential redheadedstepchild, you know, there's the
other than., just like in HarryPotter, that being just that
treated just horribly and, and,or Cinderella, you know, that
whole trope
Kat Lewis (08:04):
cared for under obligation.
Right.
And then the second that heraunt could like offload her to a
boarding school, she did.
Melissa Grace (08:12):
There was another line in there that I liked a
lot, something to the effectiveif I was,"at all charming at all
pretty at all, any of the thingsyou value, you would love me".
Laurel Thomas (08:22):
Wow.
Okay, well, this is so when theyfirst, they declare their love
to each other.
Then Mr.
Rochester's like, okay, get outthe carriage.
You're going to have the finestsilks and we're going to go here
and there.
And I'm like, I think that's thefirst foreshadowing that this
(08:43):
would end very badly.
If this romance continued righthere and right now.
I think that Mr.
Rochester would have beentempted to take over, because
that was his nature.
That would not have worked withJane.
So, She says,"In other people'spresence I was as formerly
deferential and quiet, any otherline of conduct being uncalled
(09:08):
for.
It was only in the eveningconferences I thus thwarted and
afflicted him.
He continued to sin for me,punctually, the moment that The
clock struck seven, though whenI appeared before him now, he
had no such honeyed terms suchas love and darling on his lips.
The best words at my servicewere provoking puppet, malicious
(09:29):
elf, sprite, and changeling.
And I, I love that she had,somehow she crafted a romance
that would have been doomed ifthe heart had not changed.
Kat Lewis (09:46):
Okay, can we talk about talk about the difference
between Jane Eyre andCinderella, because the first
half of the book, and especiallywhen Rochester proposes, it
seems like that Cinderellamoment, right?
And, um, I think what you'resaying, Laurel, is essentially
like, um, Jane did not sacrificeher individuality and it ended
(10:08):
up being, you know,
Laurel Thomas (10:09):
she saw it and recognized it as a yoke, just as
surely as she had been yoked inother.
Kat Lewis (10:17):
Yeah so we so we compare that to Cinderella who
there's so many Cinderella spinoffs of like what happened when
Cinderella goes to the castleand accepts this gilded cage.
And Jane, I think very muchperceives that this man will
lavish with me with jewels andhe will lavish me with like
luxury But at the cost of myvoice, right?
(10:39):
It was her voice that he fell inlove with.
Laurel Thomas (10:41):
And not that he was aware of that Kat.
I don't think that he was awareof that on a gut level or a core
level.
I think he genuinely obviouslyloved her, but he was not aware
of something working in hischaracter that would have
destroyed that relationship.
Which I, when I read it as ateenager, I was like, Oh, what
Melissa Grace (11:02):
get the pretty dresses.
Yeah.
Laurel Thomas (11:06):
I know.
And I was like, why would Iremember thinking, why do we
have to go to this othersetting, with other kind of
boring girls?
And this guy, who's a realreligious kind of statue, like
why right?
And again, just
Micah Leydorf (11:25):
to fill in the people who haven't read on the
plot that, um, so when itdoesn't work out with Mr.
Rochester, because we find outwhat, wait, the last minute he's
actually already married to acrazy woman who's locked in the
attic.
And Jane
Kat Lewis (11:40):
and who's trying to kill Jane twice by now
Micah Leydorf (11:43):
And so Jane decides she's tempted for a
second, but then she decideshmm.
No, I do love him But this isagainst my morals.
I can't do this.
I can't just like live likehusband and wife even do the
fairy tale.
Because that's not right.
So she leaves.
Which is all
Laurel Thomas (11:59):
very tempting and, and she writes it as very
tempting, which I thought wasauthentic.
Melissa Grace (12:05):
I agree.
And so she leaves, she just veryabruptly leaves and runs into
this home where they take her in
Micah Leydorf (12:13):
that's where we get the, the two sisters and the
brother who has to be amissionary.
Melissa Grace (12:17):
Yes.
Right.
But I just have to say, I, oneof the things that; to me the
theme of the book was that sherespects herself and she sees
herself as worthy of love.
And she doesn't refuse him aftershe figures out that he is
(12:38):
married just because it isagainst her principles, which it
is, and rightly so, and allthat.
But she says, he's going to cometo have contempt for me too.
Laurel Thomas (12:51):
Yes.
Melissa Grace (12:52):
If I, because he's talked about having these
mistresses in the past and hownow he's like, ugh.
Don't even like to think aboutthose trashy ladies or whatever.
And yes, she just valued herselftoo much to put herself in that
position.
Laurel Thomas (13:08):
And really, I think his heart could have gone
that way again.
You know, it didn't at the end,but he was a changed man.
So wouldn't it have been tragicfor him to go unchanged into
this relationship That reallywas such a a redemptive
relationship.
I mean, in all the best ways,right?
(13:29):
In all the sweetest, most honestways, it was redemptive.
Melissa Grace (13:34):
So was him trying to put all the fancy clothes on
her?
Was that, did it have a deepermeaning?
Was, was it trying to changeher,
Kat Lewis (13:41):
so just for context for the readers.
So before Mr.
Rochester proposes to Jane, hespends a lot of time in the book
entertaining the kind of upperechelon crowd.
He thinks that because Jane hasonly known destitution, that she
wants to be raised to that samelevel of frivolousness, of
(14:03):
perceived lightheartedness.
And maybe he's trying to turnher into what all these other
shallow women have wanted to be.
Cause he does kind of ward offthe attentions of Blanche
another, a woman who has her eyeon him and she is decked out in
the finest everything.
She's got a dowry.
She's got all the things andshe's looking at him as a
checkbook.
(14:23):
And maybe that's his characterarc is he goes from being
perceived only as a checkbook tobeing perceived as somebody
who's worthy of love.
Like I fell in love with hermind, but she didn't fall in
love with my checkbook.
She fell in love with my mindtoo.
Laurel Thomas (14:36):
Right.
And I don't think that he knewher.
I mean, he was drawn to her, youknow, the fact that she was
honest and fresh and surprising,you know, drew him, but I don't
think he knew her.
And it wasn't until, you know,the very end when she comes
back, he realizes really who theheart of that young woman is.
(15:00):
And she is a strong little womanand she's equally as strong as
he is.
Kat Lewis (15:05):
Yeah.
Mrs.
Fairfax even says something tothe effect of like, I didn't
think you to be a young woman tobe so overwhelmed.
And I think that maybe it'stouching on all these things
that this is a strong man with astrong personality.
And I don't know if you reallyknow what you're signing up for.
Laurel Thomas (15:20):
I like, I believe that too.
I got that.
Melissa Grace (15:23):
See, I never, I never saw that.
I saw him needing to come to theend of himself.
Which, you know, he does at thevery end
Micah Leydorf (15:33):
But let's compare him to A Long Fatal Love Chase,
but there's obvious comparisonsright here.
So yeah, you have Tempest who isa bad, bad, bad man, bad man,
who essentially the same thing.
He wants the same thing.
He wants to marry.
He's not free to marry.
And he's trying to trick her andhe does trick her; versus
(15:53):
Rochester who is a sympatheticcharacter And he truly loves
Jane and I don't know he mighteven be rationalizing He is
saving her from having to goagainst her morals by not
revealing So that you know thatshe doesn't have to make that
decision and they can both behappy.
Kat Lewis (16:11):
One of the things that Charlotte Bronte does
really well in the story as faras storytelling techniques is I
do think that Rochester is thevillain in this story because
Rochester forces her to, itforces all of these preconceived
moral values, he puts into thetest, right?
(16:33):
Um, I do think that he's like asoft villain.
Maybe this is one of those bookswhere it's like, man versus
self, like it's Jane againstherself, but I do think that
Rochester is kind of the changeengine.
But let's talk about likecreating, especially for the
romance writers in the room,creating a sympathetic villian
to where we understand thatRochester's motives are twisted
(16:53):
but we also feel bad for theguy.
He too was tricked into thismarriage with this crazy lady.
Maybe all he's ever known istrickery when it comes to
relationships.
And so we, as the readers feelthe conflict We see the woman's
heart is like, man, I see hisdepression.
I see how being married to thiswoman is a self fulfilling
(17:16):
generational cycle that he hasjust looped into.
And so the woman's compassionateheart wants to say, I want to be
the solution.
But Jane decides to lean on thatmoral premise that says
Melissa Grace (17:28):
moral premise and her self worth
Laurel Thomas (17:31):
Yeah.
And I, I think though, there wasmore character arc too, because
when she realizes St.
John does not love her and shesays, you don't love me.
And he said, you know, that'snot required in this
relationship.
Micah Leydorf (17:47):
And again, just to fill in the plot, that was
the wannabe missionary brotherwho proposes to her a kind of a,
a platonic deal of, Hey, we'd begreat missionaries together, you
know.
Kat Lewis (17:58):
And he saves her.
This is, this is also like her,her, you know, the, the
emotional pool.
Yeah.
He, so Jane leaves Thornfieldhall because she's like, I can't
marry Rochester.
And I also know that I'm tooweak to be in your presence.
So I have to go.
Right.
And then she proceeds to wanderthe, the moors for a couple of
(18:19):
days, a couple of weeks.
And St.
John this wanna to be missionaryis the guy who scoops her up,
saves her from the moors,
Micah Leydorf (18:27):
so I was just going to say, Kat, what you just
said about that she realized,okay, she doesn't want to do
this=And I can't be in hispresence.
Talk about a lesson for modernaudiences is yeah.
Like, okay.
If we, if you want something,like I say, if you want to like,
if you want to save yourself,right.
For a more importantrelationship; don't be with
(18:48):
people who don't want to likeyou need to remove yourself from
the people, places, and thingsthat are going to, pull you down
the wrong path.
So I think that's, that's areally good,
Laurel Thomas (19:00):
it was a beautiful portrayal of real
temptation, like the real kind.
He loved her.
He loves her and she knows it.
And yet she can't stay.
And she knows that too.
I just thought it was justbeautiful and authentic that the
(19:20):
author would put Jane in thatplace and that all the things
that she lost in leaving.
And I think, you know, when,when we know in our hearts,
we're in a relationship that isnot right.
And yet we say, but I'll losethis and I'll lose this and I'll
lose this if I leave, that's areal portrayal of how temptation
(19:45):
works, right?
Yeah.
It's not a simple choice.
Melissa Grace (19:49):
Well, other truth about society or the human
experience that are explored orconfirmed or challenged in this
novel.
I just looked at it socompletely through the lens of
legalism versus grace.
Grace marked her relationshipwith Rochester in his, in his
(20:12):
presence.
I thoroughly lived and he livedin mine.
And then the legalism came with,there was legalism with Broel
Hearst.
There was legalism with sinJohn.
Um.
To me, he was the embodiment.
I mean, to me, I felt like shewas writing him as the
(20:34):
embodiment of legalism.
Laurel Thomas (20:35):
Okay.
Melissa Grace (20:36):
Because Jane says of St.
John, I daily wish to pleasehim, but to do so, I felt daily
more and more that I must disownhalf my nature.
Stifle half my faculties, restmy taste from their original
bent, force myself to theadoption of pursuits for which I
had no natural vocation.
(20:58):
I mean,
Micah Leydorf (20:59):
it's a really stark contrast.
Melissa Grace (21:01):
It was just so interesting to me that, I mean,
they went on and on about how,handsome St.
John was.
And all she could see was hedoesn't have a husband's heart
toward me.
And I love that because that'sa, that she actually used those
words because that's a themethat I talk about.
(21:21):
Yes.
Yes.
Micah Leydorf (21:22):
In your book.
I love that, that you're Ididn't see that parallelism, but
when you pull it out like that,it's really obvious, Melissa.
But there's so many words inthis book.
Laurel Thomas (21:32):
Tell them a little bit about your story so
that they know where we'regetting these parallels.
So your, your novel is about.
Part of it is about a husband'sheart.
What does that look like?
Melissa Grace (21:43):
Yes.
And what does it look like?
It's a dual storyline, uh, withan American woman, a single
woman who's adopted a baby fromChina and then also following
the the Chinese birth mother.
The baby's birth mother ispraying and asking God to give
her baby a father.
And so on the American side, wesee her dating and when all she
(22:05):
really wants is to be leftalone.
And she has experienced a lot ofrelationships where the man just
has not loved her, has notchosen her.
And she'll finally find somebodywho has a husband's heart toward
her.
And I really believe that thatis a supernatural gift.
It is a gift that God gives topeople who believe in him,
(22:30):
acknowledge him and people whodo not, that it is just a
special grace gift that he putsin men.
To love a woman that way.
Laurel Thomas (22:39):
And they can be very imperfect like Mr.
Rochester.
Melissa Grace (22:42):
Yes, very imperfect.
Micah Leydorf (22:44):
That is what I love about this story.
Is it's not, Oh, these twobeautiful people finally end up
together, which I like thosestories too.
You know, we love Pride andPrejudice.
We love Mr.
Darcy.
We love Jane.
They're both beautiful.
They got together.
Great.
And Cinderella and PrinceCharming, all the things, but
Oh, Oh, Mr.
Rochester and Jane, these,imperfect people who have a
(23:06):
great love for one another andthrough all obstacles, stay true
to themselves and to that love.
Like how much more satisfyingand joyful is that?
Kat Lewis (23:19):
I think about, something that the, this author
does really well.
And what I relearned aboutstorytelling technique was this
idea of creating stories thatare so true to the deep need of
the character that they becomeburned into the brain of the
reader.
Melissa Grace (23:37):
I like that.
Kat Lewis (23:38):
And I think about that reunion scene with Jane and
Rochester, and I love how Brontecould have written this very
dramatic, yeah, very flowery,I'm going to fling the doors
wide open and Rochester, I'mhere my love, you know, no,
that's not what she did.
She stays true to Jane'scharacter and Jane kind of like
(24:00):
walking in and playing a littletrick on him.
I love that scene.
And when she finally speaks andhe immediately reaches out and
like latches onto her hand.
And like, that is the momentthat I live for in this story.
What is it about like theseEdwardian era novels that have
like these little hand moments.
(24:21):
Like in the 2008 Pride andPrejudice, like we have that
hand flex,
Micah Leydorf (24:25):
the hand flex,
Kat Lewis (24:26):
the hand flex.
Laurel Thomas (24:28):
They're not bodice ripping, you know,
they're just.
Passion.
There's passion there.
Micah Leydorf (24:35):
I want you to repeat what you just said
though, Kat.
I thought it was so good about,um, repeat what you said about
like the deep need of thecharacter being fulfilled.
Melissa Grace (24:45):
She stays true to
Kat Lewis (24:46):
Yeah, like as an author, writing these powerful
pivotal scenes that are the deepneed revealed, the deep need
realized, the deep need finallylike satisfied, that like The
reader has been so aware ofthose things that when we get to
this really beautiful, sweetmoment of like the deep need of
(25:08):
both of these characters.
Micah Leydorf (25:09):
So how do you see that, that scene fulfilling
their, what deep need do you seebeing fulfilled in that?
Kat Lewis (25:14):
So I think one for Jane, I think like the deep need
of like, Being able to be lovedas her true self, right?
Not loved as the submissivewife.
Not, you know, she harasses him.
She does.
She says, yeah, he was
Laurel Thomas (25:28):
really good looking.
He's really smart.
Really incredibly talented andall the things
Kat Lewis (25:35):
she said.
She says this, um, I think tosend Jane when she refuses St.
John because St.
John criticizes her for her.
continued love for Mr.
Rochester.
Laurel Thomas (25:43):
Yes.
Kat Lewis (25:44):
And she says he was the first one to love what he
saw.
Laurel Thomas (25:48):
Yes.
Kat Lewis (25:49):
And so I see that confirmed in her willingness to
still reach out to him, knowingthat he's now destitute, that
he's no longer the man that sheonce thought he was.
We see her need confirmed in thepassion that's still felt
between the two of them.
His deep need is confirmedprobably because his need is the
exact same, right?
(26:10):
To be known and loved and seenas you truly are.
Because I think he even sayssomething to be effective.
Like he knows he's kind ofbarking at whoever's in the room
and he's like, I know I'm anogre.
I know I'm a troll now, youknow?
And so for like this moment oflike these two characters who
have been misused and abused andhave found each other and then
(26:31):
thought they lost each other.
I think that's why that scene isso powerful.
We thought that we were donewith Rochester.
We thought that she had givenhim up.
Right.
And that's why that scene islike burned.
Right.
And that's where that handclutch is like, Oh my gosh, like
it just gives me all the feelsbecause I'm like, you know what?
No, they're not rolling aroundin the bed.
They're not, he didn't, youknow, he didn't pull her into
(26:53):
his arms and like ravage her.
Something as simple as yourpresence is what I desire.
Melissa Grace (26:58):
Right.
Right.
Yes.
Kat Lewis (27:00):
Again, but creating scenes that like are so powerful
and we've waited for.
The reader has waited for this.
Like the character has waitedfor this.
that when we get there, if Idon't remember anything else
about Jane Eyre, and I rememberso much about this book, like
that scene is forever etchedinto my little closet romance
(27:21):
brain.
Melissa Grace (27:21):
It.
Well, what other aspects of thecraft of writing were done
really well in this book?
Micah Leydorf (27:26):
Okay.
So I, okay.
This book has a lot of words.
It has a lot more words thanlike books these days.
We know as again, authors, thepublishers just don't put up
with the amount of words thatused to be acceptable in a
novel.
But I am a self professedAnglophile.
I love all things English.
So I love The way that thelandscape plays into and the
(27:48):
setting plays into the story.
It's almost like anothercharacter or maybe even more
than a character this gothic,you know, romantic feel of the
moors and the wind and these,these manor houses and all of
that.
And so I feel like she does anexceptional job.
I'm gonna go ahead and read it.
And I think that's a really goodjob of pulling all that into the
(28:08):
story because it's you know, wejust talked about Wrinkle In
Time last month.
And it's very stark.
Like you, we made the comment,Melissa, there's not a lot of
setting.
And so I love how she does that.
Like this story happens in thisplace and this place affects the
story and it couldn't happenjust somewhere else.
You can't just pick up thisstory and stick it in america
(28:30):
in, Oklahoma, where we're based
Kat Lewis (28:32):
represent the emotional landscape of the
characters, right.
And I think it's interestingthat, like, we in the story in
this kind of wooded cottage fullof greenery and life and
newness.
Whereas, like, the moors werelike this cold, desolate place.
We end the story in thisplaceful loop that's surrounded
by life and continual seasons.
(28:53):
You're so right.
You cannot put Jane Eyre inmodern suburbia and it have the
same effect.
Like, you just can't.
Laurel Thomas (29:01):
And that would be my favorite, is that it is
universal.
Even though it's so specific,you know, the genre and the time
element, you know, it wasflawless, of course, but the,
the characters, the themes, theconflict were all universals.
(29:21):
I think that whole switch overinto that other part of the
setting, into that other areathat was a long way from
Thornfield was actually veryeffective because Jane needed to
figure things out and she sawherself reflected and she saw a
loveless relationship and whatthat looked like with St.
(29:41):
John.
Anyway, what I thought of as ateenager was an interruption in
the story, I think was a reallyvalid and powerful second
setting that Jane had to go to,to get out of that environment
to be able to see the thingsthat she needed to see.
Melissa Grace (30:02):
Well, what I thought was really strong about
the story was as writers, um,just the very simplest building
block is your character's arcand the changes that they go
through, through the story.
But the way I saw this story isthat she did not change.
(30:23):
Bronte used the same the plot,Jane's circumstances where she,
her circumstances changed frompenniless to independent to
wealthy; but her inner beliefthat she was worthy of love did
not change.
And it was like the plot wasabout testing Belief
Kat Lewis (30:49):
that is an excellent example of a flat character arc
that works,
Melissa Grace (30:53):
right?
Yeah
Kat Lewis (30:54):
I would not have thought of that personally but
looking at Jane's story.
I'm like, yeah, she doesn'tchange.
She does not
Melissa Grace (31:01):
she is the same person When she reunites with
Rochester as she was as a littlechild talking to Aunt Reed
telling her off saying, youknow, you don't love me.
I could lie and say I did loveyou, but um, so what I thought
of with the time with St.
John was that that was the finaltest about, are you, am I worthy
(31:23):
of love?
Laurel Thomas (31:24):
That's good
Melissa Grace (31:25):
because he says to her, you were formed for
labor, not for love.
And that's what she's heard overand over.
That's right.
And that was the finaltemptation to say, Oh, you're
right.
Kat Lewis (31:38):
I also think that like this author's opening and
closing image is so, so, sostrong.
And honestly, I keep envisioningthe 2006 many BBC miniseries in
my head.
I'm like, no, you're in thebook, you're in the book.
But like what you were saying inthe world about like the lack of
family and the lack of warm,loving family to the abundance
of family, right.
(31:59):
And, just this opening image ofJane cowering against a window
because she's afraid of thefamily that she's surrounded
with.
To being surrounded by like thiswarm, loving, you know, I think
those two, those two images arevery, very powerful.
And if you only read chapter oneand the end chapter, you're
gonna be intrigued and say, Howdid we get here?
Laurel Thomas (32:20):
That is so good.
The thing that I noticed too,that I thought spoke to any
culture, the weakest part ofJane, was not being valued and
not being loved, and yet, on theinside of her, she developed
this core.
I am worthy to be loved
Melissa Grace (32:40):
it was there from the beginning
Laurel Thomas (32:42):
and she stands through incredible trials with
that and yet I think that I'veheard in my culture that you
know if you've been in anabusive situation or you've
maybe been in a situation ofneglecting or maybe repeatedly
you've been told over and overthat you were worthless and that
(33:02):
you were not loved
Melissa Grace (33:04):
and she was
Laurel Thomas (33:05):
and she was and yet that belief that she was
worthy to be loved became acore.
It became like more deeperalmost like a gut thing It was
almost like I think of thatverse that says that he causes
our weakness to become ourgreatest weakness to become our
(33:28):
greatest strength.
That, you know, that place whereshe was so hammered actually
becomes a defining element aboutJane that we love.
The quiet Jane who will not bemoved from the reality that she
is worthy to be loved.
Kat Lewis (33:46):
That's so good.
Yes.
Melissa Grace (33:51):
Well, let's wrap up with our character roulette.
We'll put everybody in a pot.
We've got Aunt Reed, we've gotRochester and Jane, we have
characters from her earlychildhood though.
Also, we have Helen at theschool, we have the two cousins.
(34:11):
I don't remember their names.
Micah Leydorf (34:12):
We have her ward.
Was it Adele?
Adele.
Yes.
Kat Lewis (34:17):
Mrs.
Fairfax.
Yes.
We've got the two.
Blanche.
Micah Leydorf (34:21):
Blanche.
Kat Lewis (34:22):
Blanche.
Um.
Micah Leydorf (34:24):
Oh, the crazy woman.
Kat Lewis (34:25):
The crazy woman.
Oh yeah, that's right.
Yes.
Bertha.
Bertha.
Yes.
characters.
Melissa Grace (34:31):
Okay.
All right.
Micah.
Micah Leydorf (34:35):
Okay.
Who am I drawing out?
It is.
Oh, it's Sinjin.
Oh, okay.
I think I'm pronouncing it.
So again, this is the handsome,religious, pious, missionary
wannabe, husband wannabe, who'skind enough to take her in, but
doesn't really Love her.
Kat Lewis (34:53):
He's very, he's a very harsh character.
He's very stark.
His worldviews is very black andwhite.
Micah Leydorf (34:59):
And I love that Melissa's pulled out that he
apparently is thepersonification of, legalism.
So, okay, let's look at, andwe've talked, we've talked a lot
about him already.
Laurel Thomas (35:08):
I think the thing that she, that is really
artfully crafted about him isthat Jane sees his heart.
beyond the legalism because whenMr.
Rochester says, well, is he anunfeeling monster?
She's on the contrary, but hekeeps his passions so tightly
(35:32):
and that they never, they'renever allowed out.
She has a really, she, she has areally well rounded perception
of him so that he doesn't comeacross as just a flat
Micah Leydorf (35:52):
You know, what I like is the fact that I like
what you just said there,Laurel, but also, she shared her
inheritance.
Like, okay, I'm not going tomarry you because you don't love
me and I'm not going to even goserve over there with you or,
you know, Maybe it's a brotherand sister kind of that was the
possibility.
She suggested that.
(36:12):
She's like, okay, I might dothat, but I'm not gonna.
I'm not gonna marry you, but Iam gonna give you a quarter of
my inheritance.
Like, again, I'm going to acceptyou as my daughter.
My family and my cousin, and I'mnot going to say you're like,
you say this horrible monster.
And so I do love that.
I feel like there's almost a, Idon't know.
I'm kind of tend towards theanalogy and the metaphor kind of
(36:35):
the 1st vision of things.
That's just how my mind works.
But I think about like, youknow, um.
When you talk about legals andgrace, my mind automatically
goes to like the church, likethe American church and like,
okay, this denomination swingstowards the grace and this one
swings towards the legalism andall that stuff.
It's like, you know what?
We don't have to like vilify theother, the other.
(36:57):
We can just acknowledge like,okay, you know, maybe that's,
these are your strengths.
These are your weaknesses, butlet's all try to, um, does
Melissa Grace (37:06):
she does that.
I don't feel like I am not asgenerous towards St.
John as readers are not asgenerous as, um, as Jane was.
But, um, yeah, I, I love whatyou're saying though.
It's that pragmatism that neverwaivers in her.
(37:29):
She's, she can see peopleclearly good and bad.
Kat Lewis (37:35):
Jane as a character.
I think that she amplifies thespaces because she, there's
something to be said about, andthis is so beautifully portrayed
in this mini series that we're,that we're talking about, um,
the power of like silence andrevealing, not only revealing
the characters of the peoplearound you, but giving those
(37:55):
characters an opportunity toblossom.
I mean, Rochester even kind ofsays that he's like, You just
sit there and you stare and youpull the secrets of my soul out
of me, right?
And I feel like specificallywith Sinjin, and we even kind of
see it in, in Sinjin'sinteractions with Jane.
Like he goes from this verycold, haughty person to steadily
(38:16):
warming up, right.
And making jokes with her andmaking observations about her.
Right.
Um, you know, that really kindof show you that he's like,
okay, I don't have tonecessarily be this highly
pious, uh, untouchable priestperson with Jane.
She won't let me, right.
She's going to call me out, butit's, it's going to be this very
kind of gentle wooing into self.
(38:39):
And I think that maybe like oneof St.
John's jobs in the, in thisnovel is like highlighting that
what she is, what she allowsherself to do for St.
John is what is the thing thathas been cultivated inside of
her that allows her to do thatfor herself.
Laurel Thomas (38:54):
So it's because she, because she honors being
loved herself, she will releasethat for others.
Is that what you're saying?
She'll release that mindset orthat heartset for other people.
Kat Lewis (39:09):
Just with her presence.
Right.
Like Jane's not a super.
We see her as super talkativebecause we're in her head.
She's really not a talkativeperson.
But just through a presencethat's nonjudgmental, through a
presence that seeks tounderstand, right?
She does release a lot offreedom that's cool.
Micah Leydorf (39:26):
Well, I think that if you haven't read Jane
Eyre, that you're definitelygoing to want to.
Kat Lewis (39:31):
It's a must.
Yes.
You must.
Melissa Grace (39:32):
Or at least see the musical.
Kat Lewis (39:39):
Spare us.
Melissa Grace (39:42):
Well, thank you for listening and spending this
time with us.
Um, yes, I agree with Micah.
Go read Jane Eyre if you haven'talready.
We'll see Talk to you againsoon.
Bye! Bye guys!
Laurel Thomas (39:56):
Bye bye!
Hello and welcome to episode number nine of
Stories That Change Us.
I'm Melissa Grace and I'm herewith some of my fabulous writer
friends,
Micah Leydorf (00:13):
Micah Leydorf
Laurel Thomas (00:15):
Laurel Thomas., and
Kat Lewis (00:16):
And Kat Lewis.
Melissa Grace (00:18):
Today we are discussing Jane Eyre.
Micah Leydorf (00:23):
Kat's doing a little dance over here.
Laurel Thomas (00:25):
Happy dance, happy dance.
Kat Lewis (00:27):
Very excited for Jane Eyre.
Melissa Grace (00:29):
Um, it was written by Charlotte Bronte.
First published in 1847 underthe pen name Kerr Bell.
Which was ambiguous as far asgender, purposefully.
It was first person, the firstperson narrative that it was
written in was innovative forits time.
(00:51):
It's been translated into 50languages.
It is cited as an early feministnovel.
I have heard from around thetable that the 2006.
Is it a miniseries or a
Kat Lewis (01:07):
miniseries, a miniseries
Melissa Grace (01:10):
that that is the thing to watch because Rochester
and Jane are both strangely hot.
We don't know, so maybe it fitsthe book.
But, anyway, that I thought wasjust hilarious.
It was made into a Broadwaymusical.
And starting in 2012 is whatthe, my online source said.
(01:33):
But anyway, I just thought thatwas the most hilarious thing.
I would think that would begenerous.
I mean, I just cannot think ofhow you would make a musical out
of this story, out of this.
Micah Leydorf (01:48):
Oh, they made a musical out of Sweeney Todd, so
who knows?
Melissa Grace (01:51):
And also Les Miserables.
I mean, you know, there are,somebody probably looked at that
and said, what?
What are you doing?
But anyway,
Micah Leydorf (01:58):
that's true.
That's true.
Who looked at Victor Hugo's, youknow, like three inch novel and
said, you know what?
This would be great on Broadway.
Melissa Grace (02:05):
Yes, true.
Um, similarities to Bronte'slife.
She worked as a governmentgoverness.
Lowood's school was based onBronte's experience, which broke
my heart when I read that.
Her father sent her and hersisters away to the clergy's
daughter's school after his wifedied.
(02:28):
And Charlotte was only 5 yearsold.
The dastardly schoolmasterBrocklehurst.
Um, was based on a real guy.
And when Jane Eyre became asuccess, he recognized himself
in the character and she had towrite a formal apology to avoid
a lawsuit.
Micah Leydorf (02:48):
Wow.
Laurel Thomas (02:48):
My goodness.
Way to go.
Melissa Grace (02:50):
I was going to say that means she captured him.
She did it well Well, the formatthat we follow here at Stories
That Change Us.
We all have a favorite quote.
There are so many, like, everypassage is so quotable.
Micah Leydorf (03:06):
Well, since we were just talking about the
earlier years; because, youknow, this novel is kind of
divided into her childhood andthen her time as a governess and
in her time with Mr.
Rochester, kind of a couple ofdifferent sections.
My quote is maybe from that era.
I kind of like this.
So this is a little bit longer.
It says, no site so sad as thatof a naughty child.
(03:28):
He began, especially a naughtylittle girl.
Do you know where the wicked goafter death?
They go to hell was my ready andorthodox answer.
And what is hell?
Can you tell me that?
A pit full of fire?
And should you like to fall intothat pit and to be burning there
forever?
No, sir.
What must you do to avoid it?
(03:50):
I deliberated a moment.
My answer when it did come wasobjectionable.
I must keep in good health andnot die.
I love that.
Melissa Grace (04:01):
Well spoken.
Micah Leydorf (04:02):
So I felt like, you know, again, talking about
storytelling techniques, I feltlike that little exchange, you
know, just conveyed so muchabout her character.
And again, when you talk aboutthis being An innovation for its
time in the first feministnovel.
So you have this, um, Heroin whois not like, not like the
others, right?
That we read before, like What?
(04:24):
She speaks her mind.
She speaks up.
She's not following the,
Kat Lewis (04:28):
protocol, and for it to be like shown so early is
like a little girl.
You think about like Pride andPrejudice, where we start out
with Elizabeth Bennett, who isclearly a grown woman, who is
fighting against the norms ofsociety.
But like Jane Eyre, This girl isthoughtful.
She's intelligent.
(04:48):
She's not going to hide it.
She's not going to shrinkherself.
She's very, we see that at likeeight, 10 years old, right?
Yes.
Melissa Grace (04:54):
Yes.
Kat Lewis (04:54):
Yeah.
Melissa Grace (04:55):
And I feel like that Bronte does give us a very
good encapsulation of hercharacter there.
She's very pragmatic.
You just don't die.
Micah Leydorf (05:04):
That's how you don't think about it for a
second.
I guess that's my option becauseyou're telling me I'm naughty.
Kat Lewis (05:10):
And honestly, this is one of my favorite novels, but I
recognize how it can feel alittle bit like trudgery trying
to move through all of Jane'sthoughts to moments of like
clear action, right?
So, so there's two quotes thatstand out to me is, is my
favorite.
One this is coming from Mr.
Rochester's perspective, and hesays, every atom of your flesh
(05:34):
is as dear to me as my own.
In pain and sickness, it wouldstill be dear.
Your mind is my treasure.
And if it were broken, it wouldbe my treasure still.
And I love that becauseRochester is an unapologetically
moody character.
He's unapologetically depressedand apathetic, but I just love
how, Even in him declaring herimportance to him.
(05:56):
We still get like a really likea tangible taste of who he is
and the lens that he lives lifethrough.
But I also like, like theextremeness of that.
Like, you know, in a 21stsociety where women are like,
don't objectify me.
And like, there's more to methan my body.
Da da da da da.
I love how he focuses on likeher mind.
He's like, your mind is what Ifell in love with and your mind
(06:19):
is precious to me.
Yeah.
That stood out to me.
But then also my favoritest lineever.
In any, you know, I know thatthe Pride and Prejudice opening
line, a man, you know, in, inpossession of a good fortune
must be in want of a wife.
Okay.
Sure.
But I love, I love the very lastline of Jane Eyre, which is no,
(06:40):
I think it was like the firstline of like the last chapter,
which is reader.
I married him.
Melissa Grace (06:46):
Well, I, I have to say that even though we spend
a lot of time in her POV, shedoesn't, um.
We don't turn like I feel likethat's what that's kind of the
term I think of when I think ofrevisiting the same emotions
over and over and over again ina way that's really tiresome I
(07:07):
didn't feel that way when IFinished reading this.
I felt like it was all relevantand interesting information that
we were getting and not justrepackaging the same emotion
over and over again.
I Will share my favorite quoteand It is a another from when
she was a little girl very earlyin the book I could not sleep
(07:31):
unless it, and she was talkingabout her doll was folded in my
nightgown.
And when it laid there safe andwarm, I was comparatively happy
believing it to be happy.
Likewise, because it just statedfor us that she's hungry for
love.
Micah Leydorf (07:50):
Right.
And for the people who haven'tread it, she was an orphan.
The quintessential redheadedstepchild, you know, there's the
other than., just like in HarryPotter, that being just that
treated just horribly and, and,or Cinderella, you know, that
whole trope
Kat Lewis (08:04):
cared for under obligation.
Right.
And then the second that heraunt could like offload her to a
boarding school, she did.
Melissa Grace (08:12):
There was another line in there that I liked a
lot, something to the effectiveif I was,"at all charming at all
pretty at all, any of the thingsyou value, you would love me".
Laurel Thomas (08:22):
Wow.
Okay, well, this is so when theyfirst, they declare their love
to each other.
Then Mr.
Rochester's like, okay, get outthe carriage.
You're going to have the finestsilks and we're going to go here
and there.
And I'm like, I think that's thefirst foreshadowing that this
(08:43):
would end very badly.
If this romance continued righthere and right now.
I think that Mr.
Rochester would have beentempted to take over, because
that was his nature.
That would not have worked withJane.
So, She says,"In other people'spresence I was as formerly
deferential and quiet, any otherline of conduct being uncalled
(09:08):
for.
It was only in the eveningconferences I thus thwarted and
afflicted him.
He continued to sin for me,punctually, the moment that The
clock struck seven, though whenI appeared before him now, he
had no such honeyed terms suchas love and darling on his lips.
The best words at my servicewere provoking puppet, malicious
(09:29):
elf, sprite, and changeling.
And I, I love that she had,somehow she crafted a romance
that would have been doomed ifthe heart had not changed.
Kat Lewis (09:46):
Okay, can we talk about talk about the difference
between Jane Eyre andCinderella, because the first
half of the book, and especiallywhen Rochester proposes, it
seems like that Cinderellamoment, right?
And, um, I think what you'resaying, Laurel, is essentially
like, um, Jane did not sacrificeher individuality and it ended
(10:08):
up being, you know,
Laurel Thomas (10:09):
she saw it and recognized it as a yoke, just as
surely as she had been yoked inother.
Kat Lewis (10:17):
Yeah so we so we compare that to Cinderella who
there's so many Cinderella spinoffs of like what happened when
Cinderella goes to the castleand accepts this gilded cage.
And Jane, I think very muchperceives that this man will
lavish with me with jewels andhe will lavish me with like
luxury But at the cost of myvoice, right?
(10:39):
It was her voice that he fell inlove with.
Laurel Thomas (10:41):
And not that he was aware of that Kat.
I don't think that he was awareof that on a gut level or a core
level.
I think he genuinely obviouslyloved her, but he was not aware
of something working in hischaracter that would have
destroyed that relationship.
Which I, when I read it as ateenager, I was like, Oh, what
Melissa Grace (11:02):
get the pretty dresses.
Yeah.
Laurel Thomas (11:06):
I know.
And I was like, why would Iremember thinking, why do we
have to go to this othersetting, with other kind of
boring girls?
And this guy, who's a realreligious kind of statue, like
why right?
And again, just
Micah Leydorf (11:25):
to fill in the people who haven't read on the
plot that, um, so when itdoesn't work out with Mr.
Rochester, because we find outwhat, wait, the last minute he's
actually already married to acrazy woman who's locked in the
attic.
And Jane
Kat Lewis (11:40):
and who's trying to kill Jane twice by now
Micah Leydorf (11:43):
And so Jane decides she's tempted for a
second, but then she decideshmm.
No, I do love him But this isagainst my morals.
I can't do this.
I can't just like live likehusband and wife even do the
fairy tale.
Because that's not right.
So she leaves.
Which is all
Laurel Thomas (11:59):
very tempting and, and she writes it as very
tempting, which I thought wasauthentic.
Melissa Grace (12:05):
I agree.
And so she leaves, she just veryabruptly leaves and runs into
this home where they take her in
Micah Leydorf (12:13):
that's where we get the, the two sisters and the
brother who has to be amissionary.
Melissa Grace (12:17):
Yes.
Right.
But I just have to say, I, oneof the things that; to me the
theme of the book was that sherespects herself and she sees
herself as worthy of love.
And she doesn't refuse him aftershe figures out that he is
(12:38):
married just because it isagainst her principles, which it
is, and rightly so, and allthat.
But she says, he's going to cometo have contempt for me too.
Laurel Thomas (12:51):
Yes.
Melissa Grace (12:52):
If I, because he's talked about having these
mistresses in the past and hownow he's like, ugh.
Don't even like to think aboutthose trashy ladies or whatever.
And yes, she just valued herselftoo much to put herself in that
position.
Laurel Thomas (13:08):
And really, I think his heart could have gone
that way again.
You know, it didn't at the end,but he was a changed man.
So wouldn't it have been tragicfor him to go unchanged into
this relationship That reallywas such a a redemptive
relationship.
I mean, in all the best ways,right?
(13:29):
In all the sweetest, most honestways, it was redemptive.
Melissa Grace (13:34):
So was him trying to put all the fancy clothes on
her?
Was that, did it have a deepermeaning?
Was, was it trying to changeher,
Kat Lewis (13:41):
so just for context for the readers.
So before Mr.
Rochester proposes to Jane, hespends a lot of time in the book
entertaining the kind of upperechelon crowd.
He thinks that because Jane hasonly known destitution, that she
wants to be raised to that samelevel of frivolousness, of
(14:03):
perceived lightheartedness.
And maybe he's trying to turnher into what all these other
shallow women have wanted to be.
Cause he does kind of ward offthe attentions of Blanche
another, a woman who has her eyeon him and she is decked out in
the finest everything.
She's got a dowry.
She's got all the things andshe's looking at him as a
checkbook.
(14:23):
And maybe that's his characterarc is he goes from being
perceived only as a checkbook tobeing perceived as somebody
who's worthy of love.
Like I fell in love with hermind, but she didn't fall in
love with my checkbook.
She fell in love with my mindtoo.
Laurel Thomas (14:36):
Right.
And I don't think that he knewher.
I mean, he was drawn to her, youknow, the fact that she was
honest and fresh and surprising,you know, drew him, but I don't
think he knew her.
And it wasn't until, you know,the very end when she comes
back, he realizes really who theheart of that young woman is.
(15:00):
And she is a strong little womanand she's equally as strong as
he is.
Kat Lewis (15:05):
Yeah.
Mrs.
Fairfax even says something tothe effect of like, I didn't
think you to be a young woman tobe so overwhelmed.
And I think that maybe it'stouching on all these things
that this is a strong man with astrong personality.
And I don't know if you reallyknow what you're signing up for.
Laurel Thomas (15:20):
I like, I believe that too.
I got that.
Melissa Grace (15:23):
See, I never, I never saw that.
I saw him needing to come to theend of himself.
Which, you know, he does at thevery end
Micah Leydorf (15:33):
But let's compare him to A Long Fatal Love Chase,
but there's obvious comparisonsright here.
So yeah, you have Tempest who isa bad, bad, bad man, bad man,
who essentially the same thing.
He wants the same thing.
He wants to marry.
He's not free to marry.
And he's trying to trick her andhe does trick her; versus
(15:53):
Rochester who is a sympatheticcharacter And he truly loves
Jane and I don't know he mighteven be rationalizing He is
saving her from having to goagainst her morals by not
revealing So that you know thatshe doesn't have to make that
decision and they can both behappy.
Kat Lewis (16:11):
One of the things that Charlotte Bronte does
really well in the story as faras storytelling techniques is I
do think that Rochester is thevillain in this story because
Rochester forces her to, itforces all of these preconceived
moral values, he puts into thetest, right?
(16:33):
Um, I do think that he's like asoft villain.
Maybe this is one of those bookswhere it's like, man versus
self, like it's Jane againstherself, but I do think that
Rochester is kind of the changeengine.
But let's talk about likecreating, especially for the
romance writers in the room,creating a sympathetic villian
to where we understand thatRochester's motives are twisted
(16:53):
but we also feel bad for theguy.
He too was tricked into thismarriage with this crazy lady.
Maybe all he's ever known istrickery when it comes to
relationships.
And so we, as the readers feelthe conflict We see the woman's
heart is like, man, I see hisdepression.
I see how being married to thiswoman is a self fulfilling
(17:16):
generational cycle that he hasjust looped into.
And so the woman's compassionateheart wants to say, I want to be
the solution.
But Jane decides to lean on thatmoral premise that says
Melissa Grace (17:28):
moral premise and her self worth
Laurel Thomas (17:31):
Yeah.
And I, I think though, there wasmore character arc too, because
when she realizes St.
John does not love her and shesays, you don't love me.
And he said, you know, that'snot required in this
relationship.
Micah Leydorf (17:47):
And again, just to fill in the plot, that was
the wannabe missionary brotherwho proposes to her a kind of a,
a platonic deal of, Hey, we'd begreat missionaries together, you
know.
Kat Lewis (17:58):
And he saves her.
This is, this is also like her,her, you know, the, the
emotional pool.
Yeah.
He, so Jane leaves Thornfieldhall because she's like, I can't
marry Rochester.
And I also know that I'm tooweak to be in your presence.
So I have to go.
Right.
And then she proceeds to wanderthe, the moors for a couple of
(18:19):
days, a couple of weeks.
And St.
John this wanna to be missionaryis the guy who scoops her up,
saves her from the moors,
Micah Leydorf (18:27):
so I was just going to say, Kat, what you just
said about that she realized,okay, she doesn't want to do
this=And I can't be in hispresence.
Talk about a lesson for modernaudiences is yeah.
Like, okay.
If we, if you want something,like I say, if you want to like,
if you want to save yourself,right.
For a more importantrelationship; don't be with
(18:48):
people who don't want to likeyou need to remove yourself from
the people, places, and thingsthat are going to, pull you down
the wrong path.
So I think that's, that's areally good,
Laurel Thomas (19:00):
it was a beautiful portrayal of real
temptation, like the real kind.
He loved her.
He loves her and she knows it.
And yet she can't stay.
And she knows that too.
I just thought it was justbeautiful and authentic that the
(19:20):
author would put Jane in thatplace and that all the things
that she lost in leaving.
And I think, you know, when,when we know in our hearts,
we're in a relationship that isnot right.
And yet we say, but I'll losethis and I'll lose this and I'll
lose this if I leave, that's areal portrayal of how temptation
(19:45):
works, right?
Yeah.
It's not a simple choice.
Melissa Grace (19:49):
Well, other truth about society or the human
experience that are explored orconfirmed or challenged in this
novel.
I just looked at it socompletely through the lens of
legalism versus grace.
Grace marked her relationshipwith Rochester in his, in his
(20:12):
presence.
I thoroughly lived and he livedin mine.
And then the legalism came with,there was legalism with Broel
Hearst.
There was legalism with sinJohn.
Um.
To me, he was the embodiment.
I mean, to me, I felt like shewas writing him as the
(20:34):
embodiment of legalism.
Laurel Thomas (20:35):
Okay.
Melissa Grace (20:36):
Because Jane says of St.
John, I daily wish to pleasehim, but to do so, I felt daily
more and more that I must disownhalf my nature.
Stifle half my faculties, restmy taste from their original
bent, force myself to theadoption of pursuits for which I
had no natural vocation.
(20:58):
I mean,
Micah Leydorf (20:59):
it's a really stark contrast.
Melissa Grace (21:01):
It was just so interesting to me that, I mean,
they went on and on about how,handsome St.
John was.
And all she could see was hedoesn't have a husband's heart
toward me.
And I love that because that'sa, that she actually used those
words because that's a themethat I talk about.
(21:21):
Yes.
Yes.
Micah Leydorf (21:22):
In your book.
I love that, that you're Ididn't see that parallelism, but
when you pull it out like that,it's really obvious, Melissa.
But there's so many words inthis book.
Laurel Thomas (21:32):
Tell them a little bit about your story so
that they know where we'regetting these parallels.
So your, your novel is about.
Part of it is about a husband'sheart.
What does that look like?
Melissa Grace (21:43):
Yes.
And what does it look like?
It's a dual storyline, uh, withan American woman, a single
woman who's adopted a baby fromChina and then also following
the the Chinese birth mother.
The baby's birth mother ispraying and asking God to give
her baby a father.
And so on the American side, wesee her dating and when all she
(22:05):
really wants is to be leftalone.
And she has experienced a lot ofrelationships where the man just
has not loved her, has notchosen her.
And she'll finally find somebodywho has a husband's heart toward
her.
And I really believe that thatis a supernatural gift.
It is a gift that God gives topeople who believe in him,
(22:30):
acknowledge him and people whodo not, that it is just a
special grace gift that he putsin men.
To love a woman that way.
Laurel Thomas (22:39):
And they can be very imperfect like Mr.
Rochester.
Melissa Grace (22:42):
Yes, very imperfect.
Micah Leydorf (22:44):
That is what I love about this story.
Is it's not, Oh, these twobeautiful people finally end up
together, which I like thosestories too.
You know, we love Pride andPrejudice.
We love Mr.
Darcy.
We love Jane.
They're both beautiful.
They got together.
Great.
And Cinderella and PrinceCharming, all the things, but
Oh, Oh, Mr.
Rochester and Jane, these,imperfect people who have a
(23:06):
great love for one another andthrough all obstacles, stay true
to themselves and to that love.
Like how much more satisfyingand joyful is that?
Kat Lewis (23:19):
I think about, something that the, this author
does really well.
And what I relearned aboutstorytelling technique was this
idea of creating stories thatare so true to the deep need of
the character that they becomeburned into the brain of the
reader.
Melissa Grace (23:37):
I like that.
Kat Lewis (23:38):
And I think about that reunion scene with Jane and
Rochester, and I love how Brontecould have written this very
dramatic, yeah, very flowery,I'm going to fling the doors
wide open and Rochester, I'mhere my love, you know, no,
that's not what she did.
She stays true to Jane'scharacter and Jane kind of like
(24:00):
walking in and playing a littletrick on him.
I love that scene.
And when she finally speaks andhe immediately reaches out and
like latches onto her hand.
And like, that is the momentthat I live for in this story.
What is it about like theseEdwardian era novels that have
like these little hand moments.
(24:21):
Like in the 2008 Pride andPrejudice, like we have that
hand flex,
Micah Leydorf (24:25):
the hand flex,
Kat Lewis (24:26):
the hand flex.
Laurel Thomas (24:28):
They're not bodice ripping, you know,
they're just.
Passion.
There's passion there.
Micah Leydorf (24:35):
I want you to repeat what you just said
though, Kat.
I thought it was so good about,um, repeat what you said about
like the deep need of thecharacter being fulfilled.
Melissa Grace (24:45):
She stays true to
Kat Lewis (24:46):
Yeah, like as an author, writing these powerful
pivotal scenes that are the deepneed revealed, the deep need
realized, the deep need finallylike satisfied, that like The
reader has been so aware ofthose things that when we get to
this really beautiful, sweetmoment of like the deep need of
(25:08):
both of these characters.
Micah Leydorf (25:09):
So how do you see that, that scene fulfilling
their, what deep need do you seebeing fulfilled in that?
Kat Lewis (25:14):
So I think one for Jane, I think like the deep need
of like, Being able to be lovedas her true self, right?
Not loved as the submissivewife.
Not, you know, she harasses him.
She does.
She says, yeah, he was
Laurel Thomas (25:28):
really good looking.
He's really smart.
Really incredibly talented andall the things
Kat Lewis (25:35):
she said.
She says this, um, I think tosend Jane when she refuses St.
John because St.
John criticizes her for her.
continued love for Mr.
Rochester.
Laurel Thomas (25:43):
Yes.
Kat Lewis (25:44):
And she says he was the first one to love what he
saw.
Laurel Thomas (25:48):
Yes.
Kat Lewis (25:49):
And so I see that confirmed in her willingness to
still reach out to him, knowingthat he's now destitute, that
he's no longer the man that sheonce thought he was.
We see her need confirmed in thepassion that's still felt
between the two of them.
His deep need is confirmedprobably because his need is the
exact same, right?
(26:10):
To be known and loved and seenas you truly are.
Because I think he even sayssomething to be effective.
Like he knows he's kind ofbarking at whoever's in the room
and he's like, I know I'm anogre.
I know I'm a troll now, youknow?
And so for like this moment oflike these two characters who
have been misused and abused andhave found each other and then
(26:31):
thought they lost each other.
I think that's why that scene isso powerful.
We thought that we were donewith Rochester.
We thought that she had givenhim up.
Right.
And that's why that scene islike burned.
Right.
And that's where that handclutch is like, Oh my gosh, like
it just gives me all the feelsbecause I'm like, you know what?
No, they're not rolling aroundin the bed.
They're not, he didn't, youknow, he didn't pull her into
(26:53):
his arms and like ravage her.
Something as simple as yourpresence is what I desire.
Melissa Grace (26:58):
Right.
Right.
Yes.
Kat Lewis (27:00):
Again, but creating scenes that like are so powerful
and we've waited for.
The reader has waited for this.
Like the character has waitedfor this.
that when we get there, if Idon't remember anything else
about Jane Eyre, and I rememberso much about this book, like
that scene is forever etchedinto my little closet romance
(27:21):
brain.
Melissa Grace (27:21):
It.
Well, what other aspects of thecraft of writing were done
really well in this book?
Micah Leydorf (27:26):
Okay.
So I, okay.
This book has a lot of words.
It has a lot more words thanlike books these days.
We know as again, authors, thepublishers just don't put up
with the amount of words thatused to be acceptable in a
novel.
But I am a self professedAnglophile.
I love all things English.
So I love The way that thelandscape plays into and the
(27:48):
setting plays into the story.
It's almost like anothercharacter or maybe even more
than a character this gothic,you know, romantic feel of the
moors and the wind and these,these manor houses and all of
that.
And so I feel like she does anexceptional job.
I'm gonna go ahead and read it.
And I think that's a really goodjob of pulling all that into the
(28:08):
story because it's you know, wejust talked about Wrinkle In
Time last month.
And it's very stark.
Like you, we made the comment,Melissa, there's not a lot of
setting.
And so I love how she does that.
Like this story happens in thisplace and this place affects the
story and it couldn't happenjust somewhere else.
You can't just pick up thisstory and stick it in america
(28:30):
in, Oklahoma, where we're based
Kat Lewis (28:32):
represent the emotional landscape of the
characters, right.
And I think it's interestingthat, like, we in the story in
this kind of wooded cottage fullof greenery and life and
newness.
Whereas, like, the moors werelike this cold, desolate place.
We end the story in thisplaceful loop that's surrounded
by life and continual seasons.
(28:53):
You're so right.
You cannot put Jane Eyre inmodern suburbia and it have the
same effect.
Like, you just can't.
Laurel Thomas (29:01):
And that would be my favorite, is that it is
universal.
Even though it's so specific,you know, the genre and the time
element, you know, it wasflawless, of course, but the,
the characters, the themes, theconflict were all universals.
(29:21):
I think that whole switch overinto that other part of the
setting, into that other areathat was a long way from
Thornfield was actually veryeffective because Jane needed to
figure things out and she sawherself reflected and she saw a
loveless relationship and whatthat looked like with St.
(29:41):
John.
Anyway, what I thought of as ateenager was an interruption in
the story, I think was a reallyvalid and powerful second
setting that Jane had to go to,to get out of that environment
to be able to see the thingsthat she needed to see.
Melissa Grace (30:02):
Well, what I thought was really strong about
the story was as writers, um,just the very simplest building
block is your character's arcand the changes that they go
through, through the story.
But the way I saw this story isthat she did not change.
(30:23):
Bronte used the same the plot,Jane's circumstances where she,
her circumstances changed frompenniless to independent to
wealthy; but her inner beliefthat she was worthy of love did
not change.
And it was like the plot wasabout testing Belief
Kat Lewis (30:49):
that is an excellent example of a flat character arc
that works,
Melissa Grace (30:53):
right?
Yeah
Kat Lewis (30:54):
I would not have thought of that personally but
looking at Jane's story.
I'm like, yeah, she doesn'tchange.
She does not
Melissa Grace (31:01):
she is the same person When she reunites with
Rochester as she was as a littlechild talking to Aunt Reed
telling her off saying, youknow, you don't love me.
I could lie and say I did loveyou, but um, so what I thought
of with the time with St.
John was that that was the finaltest about, are you, am I worthy
(31:23):
of love?
Laurel Thomas (31:24):
That's good
Melissa Grace (31:25):
because he says to her, you were formed for
labor, not for love.
And that's what she's heard overand over.
That's right.
And that was the finaltemptation to say, Oh, you're
right.
Kat Lewis (31:38):
I also think that like this author's opening and
closing image is so, so, sostrong.
And honestly, I keep envisioningthe 2006 many BBC miniseries in
my head.
I'm like, no, you're in thebook, you're in the book.
But like what you were saying inthe world about like the lack of
family and the lack of warm,loving family to the abundance
of family, right.
(31:59):
And, just this opening image ofJane cowering against a window
because she's afraid of thefamily that she's surrounded
with.
To being surrounded by like thiswarm, loving, you know, I think
those two, those two images arevery, very powerful.
And if you only read chapter oneand the end chapter, you're
gonna be intrigued and say, Howdid we get here?
Laurel Thomas (32:20):
That is so good.
The thing that I noticed too,that I thought spoke to any
culture, the weakest part ofJane, was not being valued and
not being loved, and yet, on theinside of her, she developed
this core.
I am worthy to be loved
Melissa Grace (32:40):
it was there from the beginning
Laurel Thomas (32:42):
and she stands through incredible trials with
that and yet I think that I'veheard in my culture that you
know if you've been in anabusive situation or you've
maybe been in a situation ofneglecting or maybe repeatedly
you've been told over and overthat you were worthless and that
(33:02):
you were not loved
Melissa Grace (33:04):
and she was
Laurel Thomas (33:05):
and she was and yet that belief that she was
worthy to be loved became acore.
It became like more deeperalmost like a gut thing It was
almost like I think of thatverse that says that he causes
our weakness to become ourgreatest weakness to become our
(33:28):
greatest strength.
That, you know, that place whereshe was so hammered actually
becomes a defining element aboutJane that we love.
The quiet Jane who will not bemoved from the reality that she
is worthy to be loved.
Kat Lewis (33:46):
That's so good.
Yes.
Melissa Grace (33:51):
Well, let's wrap up with our character roulette.
We'll put everybody in a pot.
We've got Aunt Reed, we've gotRochester and Jane, we have
characters from her earlychildhood though.
Also, we have Helen at theschool, we have the two cousins.
(34:11):
I don't remember their names.
Micah Leydorf (34:12):
We have her ward.
Was it Adele?
Adele.
Yes.
Kat Lewis (34:17):
Mrs.
Fairfax.
Yes.
We've got the two.
Blanche.
Micah Leydorf (34:21):
Blanche.
Kat Lewis (34:22):
Blanche.
Um.
Micah Leydorf (34:24):
Oh, the crazy woman.
Kat Lewis (34:25):
The crazy woman.
Oh yeah, that's right.
Yes.
Bertha.
Bertha.
Yes.
characters.
Melissa Grace (34:31):
Okay.
All right.
Micah.
Micah Leydorf (34:35):
Okay.
Who am I drawing out?
It is.
Oh, it's Sinjin.
Oh, okay.
I think I'm pronouncing it.
So again, this is the handsome,religious, pious, missionary
wannabe, husband wannabe, who'skind enough to take her in, but
doesn't really Love her.
Kat Lewis (34:53):
He's very, he's a very harsh character.
He's very stark.
His worldviews is very black andwhite.
Micah Leydorf (34:59):
And I love that Melissa's pulled out that he
apparently is thepersonification of, legalism.
So, okay, let's look at, andwe've talked, we've talked a lot
about him already.
Laurel Thomas (35:08):
I think the thing that she, that is really
artfully crafted about him isthat Jane sees his heart.
beyond the legalism because whenMr.
Rochester says, well, is he anunfeeling monster?
She's on the contrary, but hekeeps his passions so tightly
(35:32):
and that they never, they'renever allowed out.
She has a really, she, she has areally well rounded perception
of him so that he doesn't comeacross as just a flat
Micah Leydorf (35:52):
You know, what I like is the fact that I like
what you just said there,Laurel, but also, she shared her
inheritance.
Like, okay, I'm not going tomarry you because you don't love
me and I'm not going to even goserve over there with you or,
you know, Maybe it's a brotherand sister kind of that was the
possibility.
She suggested that.
(36:12):
She's like, okay, I might dothat, but I'm not gonna.
I'm not gonna marry you, but Iam gonna give you a quarter of
my inheritance.
Like, again, I'm going to acceptyou as my daughter.
My family and my cousin, and I'mnot going to say you're like,
you say this horrible monster.
And so I do love that.
I feel like there's almost a, Idon't know.
I'm kind of tend towards theanalogy and the metaphor kind of
(36:35):
the 1st vision of things.
That's just how my mind works.
But I think about like, youknow, um.
When you talk about legals andgrace, my mind automatically
goes to like the church, likethe American church and like,
okay, this denomination swingstowards the grace and this one
swings towards the legalism andall that stuff.
It's like, you know what?
We don't have to like vilify theother, the other.
(36:57):
We can just acknowledge like,okay, you know, maybe that's,
these are your strengths.
These are your weaknesses, butlet's all try to, um, does
Melissa Grace (37:06):
she does that.
I don't feel like I am not asgenerous towards St.
John as readers are not asgenerous as, um, as Jane was.
But, um, yeah, I, I love whatyou're saying though.
It's that pragmatism that neverwaivers in her.
(37:29):
She's, she can see peopleclearly good and bad.
Kat Lewis (37:35):
Jane as a character.
I think that she amplifies thespaces because she, there's
something to be said about, andthis is so beautifully portrayed
in this mini series that we're,that we're talking about, um,
the power of like silence andrevealing, not only revealing
the characters of the peoplearound you, but giving those
(37:55):
characters an opportunity toblossom.
I mean, Rochester even kind ofsays that he's like, You just
sit there and you stare and youpull the secrets of my soul out
of me, right?
And I feel like specificallywith Sinjin, and we even kind of
see it in, in Sinjin'sinteractions with Jane.
Like he goes from this verycold, haughty person to steadily
(38:16):
warming up, right.
And making jokes with her andmaking observations about her.
Right.
Um, you know, that really kindof show you that he's like,
okay, I don't have tonecessarily be this highly
pious, uh, untouchable priestperson with Jane.
She won't let me, right.
She's going to call me out, butit's, it's going to be this very
kind of gentle wooing into self.
(38:39):
And I think that maybe like oneof St.
John's jobs in the, in thisnovel is like highlighting that
what she is, what she allowsherself to do for St.
John is what is the thing thathas been cultivated inside of
her that allows her to do thatfor herself.
Laurel Thomas (38:54):
So it's because she, because she honors being
loved herself, she will releasethat for others.
Is that what you're saying?
She'll release that mindset orthat heartset for other people.
Kat Lewis (39:09):
Just with her presence.
Right.
Like Jane's not a super.
We see her as super talkativebecause we're in her head.
She's really not a talkativeperson.
But just through a presencethat's nonjudgmental, through a
presence that seeks tounderstand, right?
She does release a lot offreedom that's cool.
Micah Leydorf (39:26):
Well, I think that if you haven't read Jane
Eyre, that you're definitelygoing to want to.
Kat Lewis (39:31):
It's a must.
Yes.
You must.
Melissa Grace (39:32):
Or at least see the musical.
Kat Lewis (39:39):
Spare us.
Melissa Grace (39:42):
Well, thank you for listening and spending this
time with us.
Um, yes, I agree with Micah.
Go read Jane Eyre if you haven'talready.
We'll see Talk to you againsoon.
Bye! Bye guys!
Laurel Thomas (39:56):
Bye bye!
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