A six-year-old lands in a new country without knowing the alphabet and discovers, by third grade, that reading feels like magic. That spark became Cindy Pon’s compass as she wrote underdogs who straddle worlds, crafting YA stories that welcome readers who’ve never seen themselves on a cover. We sit down with Cindy to trace that path—from Silver Phoenix, a Chinese-inspired fantasy that arrived when the market offered few comps by Asian American authors, to Want, a near-future thriller where Taipei is as vivid as any hero.
Cindy walks us through her creative engine: why she favors duologies, how she breaks rules in service of story, and what it took to write a teen boy’s voice that didn’t sound like her own. We explore the mechanics behind Want’s cyberpunk edge—slang that mirrors power, squads built for heists, and the way tech headlines caught up to her pages. More than set dressing, near-future Taipei becomes a sensory world: traditional temples next to neon-filled, night markets. The conversation moves through gatekeeping and marketing realities, the burden of being first, and the quiet forms of resistance available to any storyteller who insists on centering their community.
Along the way, Cindy shares practical tactics for writer’s block, why food belongs at the heart of worldbuilding, and a first look at her new YA fantasy that travels from London to Mexico City with a Chinese contortionist at a magical circus. The throughline is hope. Even inside dystopia, she believes in found family, small acts that tip the scales, and stories that leave you braver than they found you. If you care about YA fantasy, representation, sensory worldbuilding, or just need the reminder that your voice matters, this conversation will bring you joy.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Hollyn (00:04):
Welcome to Stories Without Borders, the podcast.
I'm your host, Hollyn.
Here we interview people whouse the power of stories and
service to promote connection,empathy, and understanding
around the world.
You can learn more online atstorieswithoutborders.org or
follow us on Instagram andYouTube at stories underscore
without borders.
Thanks for listening.
Here's today's episode.
(00:27):
Today we are speaking with CindyPon.
Cindy is the author of SilverPhoenix, which was named one of
the top ten fantasy and sciencefiction books for youth by
Booklist, and one of 2009's bestfantasy science fiction and
horror by Voya.
Her follow-up novels in thesame universe, Serpentine and
Sacrifice, were both JuniorLibrary Guild selections and
(00:48):
received starred reviews fromthe School Library Journal and
Kirkus Reviews, respectively.
She also wrote Want, a FreemanBook Award honorable mention,
and its sequel Ruse.
She is the co-founder ofDiversity in YA with Malinda Lo.
Cindy has been a student ofChinese brush painting for
almost two decades and has nowdelved into learning how to
(01:09):
paint in oils.
She loves to travel, lift, andhunt for cute shinies on Pokemon
Go.
So welcome, Cindy.
I'm so excited to have you onthis podcast.
Cindy (01:17):
I'm so happy to finally be here.
Thank you, Hollyn.
Hollyn (01:20):
Of course.
I'd love to start off withtalking about your author origin
story.
So specifically, what made youdecide slash want to be a
writer?
Cindy (01:29):
Um, I think I have a little bit of a different
background in that I came tothe United States from Taiwan
when I was six years old.
Hollyn (01:38):
Right.
Cindy (01:39):
And I was ESL in the 80s.
And I have a very distinctmemory of going in mid-year.
It was March, first grade, andI didn't know the alphabet.
I only knew my name was Cindy,and I didn't even know how to
write it.
And so I remember the teacherwriting my name up on the board,
and it was just such a strugglebecause at six, it's that time
(02:00):
where you're learning tocommunicate, and it was
basically all taken away fromme.
Like I went into a world wherenobody could understand me.
And so I was pooled with otherlittle immigrant kids.
I remember in like an hour, Idon't know if it was every day,
but it was to learn English.
Hollyn (02:19):
Right.
Cindy (02:19):
And my mom teaching me like, you know, the colors and
how to spell it out.
And I remember practicing.
And then all of a sudden, inthird grade, I could read.
And it was just like a jumpbetween-- I don't remember
second grade, but when I wasable to read, and then the
Scholastic book orders came andI would choose books, it felt
(02:39):
like literal magic because Iwent from like nothing to all of
a sudden the world opened upfor me.
And I realized that a lot ofthat informs my storytelling
because I always write theunderdog, I always write the
person that's kind of on theoutside or straddling worlds,
literally.
Like, you know, and so I don'trealize that until I'm books in
(03:01):
and I'm like, oh, this is whatis my origin story that affected
me enough that, you know, Imean, now I sound like a Cali
girl, like I'm on the phone andpeople are like, oh, you're
blonde, and you're like, theycan't tell.
But that is, I always rememberbeing on the outside for not,
yeah.
So I think that that informs alot of my storytelling.
Hollyn (03:21):
And so it was really just that moment for you just,
oh my gosh, stories.
I can read stories.
Yes.
Cindy (03:26):
And writers are always readers.
Hollyn (03:28):
Right.
Cindy (03:29):
So yeah.
So if you love to read, then alot of times you're like, can I
tell my own story?
Like, what if I start?
Then you're there's always thisstuff in your head, you know,
like imagination and just makingstuff up.
Yeah, I always describe writingas sort of an outlet for ideas
that you have, especially ifyou're a reader, you have to get
these ideas on the page becauseit's oh, all these other
(03:49):
authors do it.
Why can't I do it?
Definitely, definitely.
Hollyn (03:52):
And I'm curious, you mentioned that you only knew
your name was Cindy.
Did your parents give you thatEnglish name?
Cindy (03:56):
Yeah, my mom gave it to me.
I even asked her, I'm not aCynthia, I'm just a Cindy.
So yeah, I was like, how didyou pick that name?
And she just picked it.
Hollyn (04:05):
And she just picked it?
Cindy (04:06):
I yeah, she liked it, and she doesn't-- I don't even know
why.
And so that's who I am.
Hollyn (04:11):
That's awesome. Was it based on your Chinese
name, or...?
Cindy (04:15):
No, mm-mm, not at all.
My Chinese name is my middlename.
Yeah,
Hollyn (04:18):
Oh, that's awesome.
Cindy (04:19):
Yeah.
Hollyn (04:19):
If you don't mind me asking, what is your Chinese
name?
Cindy (04:21):
Um, it's Wei Jie.
Hollyn (04:22):
Wei Jie, that's such a pretty name.
Cindy (04:24):
Thank you.
Hollyn (04:25):
I'd love to delve into the Kingdom of Xia, which is
your first fantasy and alsodebut universe that you publish
a debut novel in.
You've created this universefull of rich culture.
This is the first book that Ireally saw Asian characters
thrive, and it just felt like,oh, this is not an Asian
character in the Western world.
This is an Asian character inan Asian world.
(04:47):
And obviously there's room forboth, but it was just so
incredible to see-- it has suchinteresting mythology, history,
traditions.
What were some of thechallenges when you were coming
up with this world, creatingthis world?
And what were some things thatyou learned along the way?
Silver Phoenix was my firstnovel that I wrote in my 30s.
And as I told you, it was agood 20 years ago that I started
(05:09):
researching and writing.
And I just kind of did it forfun.
And when I actually finishedthe novel, I was like, oh, why
don't I just try and get itpublished?
And it wasn't until it didpublish that I realized that I
was basically writing for myyounger self because I'm such a
fantasy reader.
(05:29):
Yeah.
Cindy (05:30):
And I didn't know until then, when I saw my cover that
I'd never read a fantasy novelwith anybody that looked like me
in any of the stories that Iread.
And I was a prolific reader.
And so it was kind of, I guess,maybe a healing thing.
Like you do so many things on asubconscious level, especially
when it's your first novel, thatit's with a lens that you look
(05:51):
back and you're like, oh, thisis what I was trying to do.
I was writing for young Cindy.
And so it was hard because atthat time I had never been to
China.
So I was just like, I want todo Chinese inspired.
And there was just a lot ofresearch that went in with it.
And I didn't know how to writea novel.
I wrote the first 50 pages andI kept revising the first 50
pages over and over againbecause I've written short
(06:11):
stories.
Hollyn (06:12):
I feel like we've all been caught in that trap--
Cindy (06:14):
That was my comfort.
And I was like, well, let mejust revise, let me revise.
And I said, What?
And then I thought, Oh, I have200 more pages to write.
What am I gonna do?
It was just very daunting, andI had young kids at the time.
And so I kind of just struggledthrough it.
And after I was done, I wasproud, you know, it's not--
Hollyn (06:32):
As you should be.
Cindy (06:33):
Oh, thank you.
It's not like amazing, but thenI looked around, and when I try
to sell it, they're like,there's nothing.
When you go to a publisher,they always want to compare
because they were like, whenthey try to pitch the sales,
they're like, "This is theequivalent of our Hunger Games
plus this." And my editor thatacquired it, she said, there are
no comps.
(06:53):
We could not find anythingexcept for this maybe adult
thing, but nothing in youngadult.
And at that time, all of theAsian-inspired fantasies were
written by white authors, and sothe lens was very much, I feel
like a lot of times, especiallywhen white men write, it's very
exotified.
Hollyn (07:13):
Oh, 100%.
Cindy (07:14):
Um, yeah.
So I didn't, I mean, justbecause it was my lens, I wasn't
doing that.
And so it kind of became whatdrove me to write more
Asian-inspired fantasy because Iwas one of five doing it in
young adult.
Hollyn (07:29):
We've sort of talked about this, but how did you
approach writing Silver Phoenixand Serpentine in terms of the
chronology and like--
Cindy (07:36):
Oh yeah.
Hollyn (07:36):
Yeah, was there like a specific timeline or order that
you chose to write them in?
Cindy (07:40):
Um, no, I'm a very intuitive writer.
I'm very organic.
I would say I'm a pantser, Idon't plan things out very much.
And I tend to write, becauseI-- when Silver Phoenix came
out, they're like, oh well,that's a cliffhanger.
And you obviously did thatbecause you want to write
another book.
And no, like all of my-- everyone of these duologies I
(08:02):
consider standalone.
Yeah, want could be standalone,Serpentine could be standalone.
And so it's very much a matterof I'll finish it and then
I'll-- and then my editor willbe like, is there more?
And then I'll think about itand I'll be like, oh yeah, there
is more.
You know, I can't-- but it'snever more than a duology
because I feel like for atrilogy, you really do have to
(08:24):
plan it out.
You can't like, you know, kindof bumble your way through--
then the readers will be like,"This is a mess.
This isn't, this doesn't work."And so naturally I kind of
write in duologies.
Hollyn (08:35):
Yeah, I noticed that because all three of your
published series, they're allduologies.
And I was just like, oh, isthis just sort of what she
gravitates to?
Cindy (08:41):
It's just what I do.
Yeah, I just-- I guess, I meanI'll do the first book in a very
close kind of first personperspective.
And then the second book willbe the consequences of the first
book.
And in order to tell the secondstory, I almost always have to
open up to multiple POV.
When you're starting out,there's a lot of rules about
(09:02):
writing, and new writers want toknow the rules.
Hollyn (09:05):
Right.
Cindy (09:06):
But for me as a writer, it's what serves the story.
And I'll break the rules, likeyou know, don't do this, don't
do that.
But if it serves the story andit is doing what I need it to
do, and if you do it well,that's the thing.
If you do it well and you do itwith the conviction that you
are as a storyteller, it'llwork.
Because if you believe it, thenthe reader will believe it.
That's, yeah, that's whatmatters.
(09:27):
So that's that kind of is-- nowthat I'm so many duologies in,
I realize like that's kind ofwhat I do.
Hollyn (09:34):
Would you ever return to the kingdom of Xia?
Cindy (09:37):
Um, never say never.
Hollyn (09:39):
Right.
Cindy (09:39):
For sure.
Uh yeah.
So I don't know.
Um, I tried to-- this new novelthat I just finished that's
being pitched right now, I triedto return and I couldn't.
And so you-- but you neverknow.
Hollyn (09:53):
Right.
Cindy (09:54):
Because, you know, writers, they grow and they
might outgrow a world or theymay outgrow something.
And now I have, like I said,when I was writing it, it was
very much like I want to do thisfor me, but I want to do it for
readers that might look likeme, but at the same time just
for fantasy lovers.
And then by the time that I wasreturning to write another
(10:17):
fantasy novel, there were somany up and coming other Asian
American writers in writingAsian inspired.
Like I was literally, and thenall of a sudden there was like a
whole wave, you know, and manyof them are like, "I read you,
Cindy Pon, and I knew it waspossible." And that really blows
up my world because when I wasdoing it, it was very solitary
and it felt very alone.
(10:38):
And it was very much my firstnovel.
They're like, "You failed." Andyeah, so it was like you failed
and you can't write any moreAsian fantasy.
So it it's yeah, it was kind ofit, it is kind of brutal.
You don't get to come back, youknow, as a writer of color.
Like they make it a lot, likeif you fail the one time,
whereas you know, white storiesthat fail, they they they'll
(10:59):
keep trying, you know.
It's so they're like,obviously, it's because it's
Chinese- inspired, and you-- butit came out in 2009 when the
economy tanked.
Hollyn (11:07):
Right.
Cindy (11:08):
And so it was a lot of other things going on at the
same time.
So yeah.
And they also didn't market it.
So that helps.
I mean, yeah, I mean, thathelps in why it didn't, you
know, do very well.
Hollyn (11:19):
Yeah, I mean, I mean, it-- Silver Phoenix was the
first.
I mean, I think it was thefirst--
Cindy (11:25):
It was the first.
Hollyn (11:25):
--Asian American fantasy novel--
In young adult.
Yeah, to be published by like a major publishing house.
And I mean, and I'm and I'msitting here thinking, why
haven't I heard of this before?
Why haven't, why didn't, youknow, nine-year-old me know
about this?
Cindy (11:41):
Yeah.
It's hard to be a trailblazerbecause you're setting the path
and you have to show that it canit can actually be published.
Then people were using me as acomp.
They'd be like, oh, it wasSilver Phoenix combined with
something else.
And so it's not, it doesn'tseem as risky.
If you're the first, it seemsrisky.
And then they didn't, and thenthey were also trying to
(12:01):
probably-- I had librarians thatwere like, well, we don't have
students of that population inour-- and then I thought, you
know, I love Asian Americanreaders that find me, but I was
reading white fantasy.
Like I'm-- a fantasy reader isa fantasy reader.
Hollyn (12:17):
Exactly!
Cindy (12:17):
So that was what-- you kind of niche it yourself.
And then if the publishersniche it or the librarians or
any of the gatekeepers, thebooksellers, if they niche it
and they're like, "We're in themiddle of Idaho and nobody's
gonna buy Asian fantasy," thenyou know, then I get hurt as an
author.
So it's challenging in verymany ways.
Hollyn (12:37):
I feel like if you're only reading books that reflect
yourself, I mean, I feel likeyou do grow, but you're also not
Cindy (12:43):
It's-- I love reading other cultures and other media.
You learn so much becausethey-- that's your-- you're in
their shoes.
And then it's just I love itso much.
Hollyn (12:52):
I mean, obviously you can never fully understand the
experience, but it's really goodto get that perspective and
see, "Oh!" I had a reallyimpactful English teacher and
she's told me, you either readthrough a mirror or you're
reading as a window.
Cindy (13:04):
Yeah.
Hollyn (13:04):
And I feel like it's important to have both.
Cindy (13:06):
Both, yeah.
Hollyn (13:07):
Because if you're only reading through a window, you
might feel isolated.
You might feel, I don't feellike I'm properly reflected on
the page, and this makes youfeel alone, nobody understands
my experience.
But then if you only readthrough a mirror, you don't
grow.
Cindy (13:20):
Yeah.
100%.
Hollyn (13:22):
Yeah.
And sometimes you need to breakthe glass, you'll just be like,
knock knock, I'm making my ownwindow.
Cindy (13:27):
Exactly.
Yeah, it's been a journey.
So I'm-- I've loved it.
It's been a challenge, but Iloved it.
Hollyn (13:32):
Now, why don't we dive into your sci-fi duology Want?
This duology is set in acompletely different world than
the kingdom of Xia.
It's a near future dystopia setin Taipei and Taiwan.
And basically the premise ofthe book is the air pollution is
so bad, and just pollution ingeneral is so bad that the
wealthy have constructed thesespace suits that provide
(13:54):
filtered air and they justbreathe, and then everybody else
is just suffering.
Cindy (13:57):
Yeah.
Hollyn (13:58):
How was it different?
And we've sort of talkedabout-- how was it different?
How was it similar if it wassimilar in certain aspects?
And what did you learn?
Cindy (14:06):
Oh, wow.
Um, it's so different in everyway.
And want came out of a shortstory that I had published in
Diverse Energies, and that wasin 2011 in response to dystopia
being the trend in young adult.
Hollyn (14:23):
Right.
Cindy (14:24):
Um, with The Hunger Games and then Divergent.
Um, there was a lot ofdystopia, and you know, dystopia
is like future and future beingproblematic or whatever, but
the future was very white.
Okay.
And so the Diverse Energies wasin response where we had, you
know, storytellers writing otherperspectives and other, you
(14:44):
know, people of color.
And I just made it up and Ijust thought, let me set it in
Taipei and let me write from ateen boy's, you know, POV, which
I never would have even triedif I was-- if it was a novel.
Like I would have been toointimidated because my voice is
fantasy girl.
Hollyn (15:01):
Right.
Cindy (15:01):
Which is the language is like more languid and more, you
know, lush, and I can fall intothat so easily.
That POV.
And boy, and I was like, oh mygosh, a boy.
But then I'm like, 5,000 words.
That's fine.
I can do 5,000 words.
So I wrote the the the firstchapter, the kidnapping is my
(15:22):
short story.
And so it was when they werelike, "No more fantasy from you
because you can't write.
The market says that you're notselling Asian fantasy.
We want something completelydifferent from you, Cindy Pon.
We like you, but it has to becompletely different." So I was
like, what about this sciencefiction novel full of Asian
(15:43):
people?
It won't be a fantasy full ofAsian people, but let me do this
sci fi.
So that's what I did instead.
And then I thought they werethey fascinated me.
That kidnapping, I was justthinking, why did he do this?
And who is this girl?
Like, I just loved both of themso much that I was brave
(16:03):
enough.
I said, You want somethingdifferent?
This is gonna be somethingdifferent.
And it was so challenging inevery way.
And as a writer, I like tochallenge myself with every new
project.
But this was just so hard forme.
And I would go away, I think Iwas doing, I don't know, but I
was coming back and forthbetween projects and I would
(16:25):
come back to Want.
And I have a critique groupthat I've used since my debut,
2009, which means I send thempages, they read it, they give
me feedback, and I'd step awayfrom Want for a bit.
And their feedback would be,"Um, Joe sounds like a
middle-aged woman again." Andthen I'd be like, crap, because
(16:46):
I had to, I like Joe.
I was like, you're a hottie,you're a hashtag, you're a
hashtag cute Asian boy.
I've been writing that sincebefore Asian boys were popular,
right?
And so I wanted him to be cute.
I wanted him to be a hero thatgirls liked, you know?
And so I-- he can't sound likea middle-aged lady.
And so, voice, I had to keepstruggling with voice.
(17:06):
I had to think about language.
The language is completelydifferent, right?
It's modern.
I had to think about slangbecause any kind of usage of
tech and slang will-- it took meso long to write, I was already
back in-- near future, wasalready current times.
Hollyn (17:23):
Right, right, right.
Cindy (17:24):
That I couldn't keep up.
And so it was challenging inall the ways, but I was so proud
of it and it was so fulfilling,especially because Taipei was a
character in itself, and it wasmy love story to Taipei.
And I had readers that werelike, "I never even knew about
Taipei.
And it seems like kind of likerough there, but it's so cool.
I want to visit, you know?" Andso that like made me so happy.
(17:47):
And it was the first, again,first YA set in Taipei
published.
So back in yeah, 2017.
So I was so proud.
Yeah.
Hollyn (17:56):
I want to go back to the bit where you were talking
about diction and slang.
And I mean, I did notice a lotof that in Want.
For example, the use of "mei",which means not having, is used
to describe people who don'thave spacesuits and who don't
have the ability to purchasethese expensive suits.
And then "you" is the peoplethat can.
And so as slang becomes, youknow, more ingrained in the
(18:19):
culture, it becomes just "mei"means poor and "you" means rich.
Cindy (18:23):
Yeah.
No, I yeah, the Chinese loveplaying with language, right?
And so for the Mandarin, thatworked for sure.
But the backstory to that isthat it used to be "yao" and
"you".
Hollyn (18:35):
Oh.
Cindy (18:36):
And so "yao" is to want.
And so that stayed as my titleand you--but my editor, when he
read it, he was like, I couldkeep up with it, but he was
like, the fact that they bothstart with "y" and and it's
three letters and it's in adifferent language, and he was
just like, "I'm afraid that um,you know, English readers are
(18:59):
gonna get it confused." Andthat's why I changed it, and
that was the only reason.
So yao, you know, they weresupposed to be a group of people
that were called "yao".
But I got to keep the title,and I love the title.
Now I'm wondering what wouldEnglish readers think if it was
just Yao, the title.
Yeah.
Hollyn (19:18):
That's so interesting.
Cindy (19:19):
They would never let you do that.
Hollyn (19:20):
No, no, no, they'd be like, Yeah, what is this?
Cindy (19:24):
Yeah.
Hollyn (19:24):
So I think something that Want did really well, Want
and Ruse, it was able to blendthe already existing culture of
Taipei, this future Taipei,Taipei that doesn't exist yet,
with the already existingTaipei.
And so, what were some of thechallenges you faced when you
were trying to integrate it?
Because obviously you do wantto stay and keep the Taipei
(19:47):
that's familiar to readers, butyou also do want to be like,
hey, this is-- we're not inpresent time, we're in future
time, there's gonna bedifferences.
Cindy (19:53):
So I think it was kind of a trick, really, on my part as
an author.
I don't know if you know HollyBlack. She's a good friend of
mine, and she has been a mentoralmost through most of my books
since Serpentine.
And I love her.
I love her books if you haven'tread her.
She's amazing.
And when I had talked aboutWant before it was even in
(20:15):
existence, she was like, "Oh,well, I would call that a near
future thriller." She's like,"Really, it's a cyberpunk,
Cindy, but they don't know whatcyberpunk is anymore." I was
like, okay, whatever Holly saysgoes.
And then so she was like, "Oh,well, it's going to be a heist.
So you need a squad and youneed a cast of characters, and
everybody brings something tothe table." So this was my first
talk when I was at a writinggroup.
(20:35):
And so I thought about all ofthese things.
And really, it was, I call itnear future thriller, but so
many of the headlines,especially since it took me at
least five years to write it,was they were current news.
So what I was doing was saying,this is our world.
Let me throw in some flyingcars just to trick you.
But what I'm trying to tell youis this could be us really
(20:59):
fast, right?
And so I'm not political, Idon't try to be didactic.
Like I don't think that that'show-- it's just is what went
into the story.
Like you can see what I worryabout and what I think about.
And so that was in the storyitself.
And I love the juxtapositionbecause that's exactly what you
think about when you go toTaiwan of the old juxtaposed
(21:20):
with the new, the temples withthe neon lights.
Like the the traditions of theold world, and then we're still
in the future.
And I just, it's all there.
Like it's not, I was just doinglike, let me just-- and then I
was saying, Oh, there were noApple watches, and they were
talking to their wrists, and Iwas like, Oh no, they have this,
and then they were talking totheir homes, and then the home
(21:41):
stuff.
And I was like, I can't keepup.
Hollyn (21:43):
Right.
Cindy (21:44):
Everything was-- I was writing, I said it was the
future, but I was writingactually into the contemporary
times.
And so, yeah, yeah.
So I say it's near future, butI really, it was really kind of
a warning.
Yeah, it was kind of a warning,especially with the pandemic,
it really underscored thedivision of wealth even more.
So yeah, yeah, it all kind ofis present time for me.
Hollyn (22:08):
Yeah, I mean, that makes sense.
I feel like there is a genre ofdystopian where it's like near
future, this could happenreally, really soon if we're not
careful.
And I feel like want definitelyfalls into that category.
And you said something aboutwhen Holly Black gave you
feedback and she said, Oh, youneed to have a group of friends
at the table.
Like these characters, Jason,Lingyi, Arun, they were all so
(22:31):
fun.
And again, they brought theirown elements to the table.
Lingyi was the leader, Jasonwas sort of like the heartthrob,
and they were almost like eachother's families.
Cindy (22:40):
Definitely it was found family.
Hollyn (22:41):
Yeah, it was a hundred percent found family.
And which of the characterscame to you first?
Was it Jason?
And also how did you developthe other characters and who
was--
Cindy (22:51):
It was definitely Daiyu and Jason because of the
kidnapping story.
So then I had to think aboutthe story and what kind of team
I needed to serve the story.
So it was very deliberate.
And then I thought about justcreating more of a multicultural
but also Asian cast.
And so I just had a lot of fun.
(23:12):
Because I don't plan the story,my first draft is really the
outline.
And then so the characters tellme their story, and then I
finish and I'm like, oh, then Iknow them and what they're
trying to say.
And that's when I go back andI'll revise like at least two to
three times to deepen thestoryline.
But I'm more plot-y.
(23:34):
So I feel like the interactionsand the relationships are what
I need to layer in more.
I feel like readers are reallydrawn to, you know, characters.
They're very invested incharacters.
Hollyn (23:45):
Oh, 100%.
Cindy (23:47):
And so that's what I work on more.
But yeah, I fall in love withthem like the reader falls in
love.
I get to know them like thereader gets to know them.
You know, after the firstdraft, I'm like, oh, now I see
who you are.
And Jason was actually veryinteresting in that I didn't
know where he was-- I didn'tknow where he was in the group.
He was obviously-- I made him ahero because it was his POV.
(24:09):
But I was trying so manydifferent things.
I remember one point, at onepoint Malinda, Malinda Lo, also
read her.
She's amazing.
She's like my author BFF.
She was like, well, maybe he'sa leader.
What if he's a leader?
Then he's important, right?
If you're the leader andeverybody listens to you, and I
kind of wrote that for a hotsecond and it just didn't feel
(24:30):
right.
And then I realized that he wasthe dispensable one.
He was the one that could begone and everybody else, he--
that's what he felt he was.
Hollyn (24:43):
Right.
Cindy (24:43):
That's why in the kidnapping he was like, "I'm
gonna do it because if I'marrested and I'm taken away
forever, everybody else hassomebody, everybody else has a
loved one or family or aconnection, I can be gone." So I
felt like it was veryinteresting to have the hero be
the one that was like, "I can doit.
Nobody needs me, right?
Like I can take the risks,right?
(25:03):
I'm gonna be rash and it'll befine, right?" And so that's why
when we did lose a character, hefelt really bad about it.
And that's why Ruse was allabout everybody getting past,
you know, trying to grieve intheir own way.
So sorry, that's like kind of aspoiler.
It's okay--spoiler alert! Thatmakes sense because you say you
write through the perspective ofthe underdog, usually.
(25:25):
Yeah.
Yeah, that's true.
He is who I was drawn to.
Yeah, yeah.
Hollyn (25:30):
So who was the most challenging character to
develop, would you say?
Well, I feel like I struggledwith him the most because it was
my-- I was trying to writethrough him, you know.
So I wanted to make himinteresting and relatable and
also sound authentic, his voice.
And so I had to really alwaysimmerse myself.
Whereas I didn't have to thinkas much with my other girl
(25:52):
characters.
I would just, you know, fallinto it.
But him, I had to really belike, okay, channel, you know,
cute Asian boy.
Talk like cute Asian boy, youknow, like, yeah, because you
know, so he was definitely themost challenging.
Yeah.
Why was it important for you to tell this specific
story?
I mean, we've talked aboutthis, but I feel like just want
(26:13):
to give you space to really justaddress the why.
Cindy (26:17):
Well, I mean, for me, I the story kind of surprised me
in what I wanted to say, but Ijust want-- it was a lot about
resistance, and this came out in2017.
So it's kind of wild that it'seven more, like it's just as
(26:38):
important now.
And I'll say that my form ofresistance is through my
storytelling.
I am not like-- I definitelysee what's going on in our
country right now, that is notgreat, but I'm not the type to
be holding signs and be on thestreet.
That's just not how I am.
(26:59):
Um, but me existing as astoryteller, as a woman of
color, as somebody who wants totalk about Taiwan, that is my
resistance, you know.
And so I just want the readersand hopefully young readers to
know that you can, you know,just by your voice, sometimes
(27:19):
just by existing is yourresistance because sometimes
things get hard and you might bestruggling with something that
nobody else knows about, or youcan't, you're too scared to talk
about.
Whatever it is, there's quietresistance too, and just that
you can change things.
I just wanted, it doesn't haveto be explosions because
obviously this is all veryexciting, like because it's
storytelling, it's a novel.
Hollyn (27:40):
Right.
Cindy (27:41):
But it's about fighting, it's about finding your group,
finding support, finding love,finding yourself, and still
being able to fight for what youfeel is true, you know, and
what is good and fighting foryour voice.
And so, yeah, that was like thestory I wanted to tell.
And also because again, my lovestory for Taipei, I just was so
(28:02):
happy to be able to publishsomething that I didn't think
that I would ever do that, youknow, because I was a fantasy
girly.
So, like, you know, fantasy is,you know, removed.
And so this, so there's manythings to be happy about for
this novel.
Yeah.
Being in existence.
Hollyn (28:18):
Definitely.
And one of the other things tobe super happy about for this
novel is that the rights aregetting purchased.
Cindy (28:23):
I know.
Yeah.
Very exciting.
Hollyn (28:25):
Congratulations.
Cindy (28:26):
Thank you.
Hollyn (28:26):
And if it ever does become a movie or a screenplay
or a TV show, what changes doyou think there would be?
What do you think would staythe same and what do you think
would be different?
Cindy (28:35):
Um, I mean, hopefully it's in Taipei.
Hollyn (28:39):
Yeah. Fingers crossed.
Cindy (28:40):
Yeah.
And hopefully it's an all-Asiancast.
I'm hoping that those thingsstay the same.
Um, I think like talking to myscript writer Eric, he-- it's
science fiction and fantasy, allof those genres are expensive.
And so just to make.
So I just wonder about budgetand what is doable in this day
(29:04):
and age.
You know, like maybe there'llbe like less kind of flashy
things.
But for me, that doesn'tmatter as much to me as the
point of their fighting forsomething that they believe in
and that it's an all-Asian castand that it's in, you know, set
in the city that I wrote thestory for.
(29:24):
Yeah.
Hollyn (29:25):
That's amazing.
And again, it would be such agood movie or even TV show
because I could when I wasreading it, I thought I can so
vividly see the characters and Ifeel like it's really those
books that translate the best.
Cindy (29:38):
Yeah, I'm very visual.
So yeah.
Hollyn (29:41):
I mean, that translates super well into your writing as
well.
Cindy (29:43):
And Taipei is just a feast for the eyes, for all
the senses.
Hollyn (29:48):
For all the senses, eyes, ears, nose.
Cindy (29:49):
Everything.
Hollyn (29:50):
Especially the mouth.
Cindy (29:51):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Everything.
Everything, yeah.
Hollyn (29:53):
Another reason why I'm obsessed with Want and Ruse,
especially, is because Iactually spend a lot of my
summers in Taipei with my momand my younger brother, and I
get to explore all the nightmarkets and go visit all the
beautiful sites and temples.
And so just seeing anothercharacter and seeing Taipei on
the page, which is somethingwhich I'm very shocked has not
(30:16):
happened more often.
I mean, there was LoveboatTaipei, Abigail Hing Wen's book,
and then there's Want, and thenthat's honestly really it.
That's really what-- that'swhat I've seen.
But it was just so incrediblejust to be able to see such a
beautiful and incredible cityjust on the page and for more
readers to discover, because Ithink more people need to know
about it.
And as we've discussed before,Want and Ruse, a big theme is
(30:40):
environmentalism in a dystopiansociety.
And I wanted to let you knowthat this duology actually
inspired Stories WithoutBorders' second service project,
which is a collaboration with afoster home in Taipei called
Hua Xing Children's Home.
And this, it was actuallyfounded by Chiang Kai-shek's
wife, yeah, and so a lot of thekids they serve, they come from
(31:01):
very difficult backgrounds.
We're gonna be doing a bunchof activities with them, we're
gonna be hanging out with them,we're gonna be teaching them
piano, arts, and basic English.
And we're also gonna be doingan environmentally focused
curriculum, which is what theidea for-- Want
inspired the idea.
(31:49):
Awesome!
Yeah, because one thing that Taiwan does actually pretty well is they really do focus a lot on sorting the trash and recycling, and it's a very clean city. So I feel like it would be really fun to have a conversation with the kids, like "Why do you think this is important? Why do you think Taiwan puts so much emphasis on this?" Honestly, I think just being there for the kids and letting them know, hey, there are people that care about you, there are people that want to spend time with you-- I think that will be really fun.
That's wonderful. That's amazing that you set that up.
Thank you so much. And thank you for making the book that inspired this idea.
Cindy (31:51):
Aw, thank you.
Hollyn (31:51):
Once again, I want to congratulate you on your
upcoming novel.
Cindy (31:55):
Oh, thank you.
Hollyn (31:56):
And I'm so excited to have a new piece of work by you.
And I can't wait to read it.
I know it's still superunder wraps, but could you tell
us a little bit about the novel?
Cindy (32:05):
Um, yeah, it's really under wraps.
I took a long time to write it,three years, which is probably
the longest I've spent on anovel.
And this again is somethingdifferent.
Like I said, I was trying toreturn to the Kingdom of Xia,
which would have been acompanion novel to Serpentine.
Hollyn (32:22):
Right.
Cindy (32:23):
I had a few false starts and I talked to Holly again and
she gave me some ideas.
Then I just thought, oh, maybenot.
Maybe I'll just look intoretelling a Chinese folklore or
something like that and put myspin on it, like I like to do.
But I finally realized thatit's because I kind of outgrew
that world for now.
Like it wasn't calling to me asmuch because there are so many
(32:46):
other voices and stories thatother Asian American authors are
doing.
I didn't feel so compelled thatI needed to represent.
So this story came out of-- itwas like a lightning strike.
And so it is again young adultfantasy, which is what I love.
Coming of age, first love, allof that that I love.
And it's my first non-Chineseinspired.
(33:09):
It starts in London and then itmoves to Mexico City.
Hollyn (33:13):
Oh, awesome!
Cindy (33:14):
Yeah, and then the heroine is Chinese and she is a
contortionist in a magicalcircus.
Hollyn (33:25):
Oh, that's awesome! It sounds like such a fun novel.
Cindy (33:28):
Yeah, it's very fun.
Yeah, I'm very proud of it.
Hollyn (33:31):
I'm really excited to read it, and again,
congratulations.
Cindy (33:34):
Thank you.
Hollyn (33:34):
What are some of your strategies when it comes to
writer's block?
Cindy (33:38):
Oh, yeah, that's always hard.
I feel like taking time awayfrom actually writing.
Hollyn (33:44):
Yeah.
Cindy (33:45):
I-- so this novel that like I said, I'm trying to sell,
it's not-- so nobody waswaiting for it.
It's not a contracted novel.
It wasn't under deadline,everything was on my own.
And that gave me the space todream and to take my time.
It's nice to have a novel undercontract, but then somebody's
kind of like, hey, what's goingon?
(34:06):
Like you just feel like youdon't have as much time to
dream.
And I like to dream and I liketo just think about the story
because I am intuitive.
And I like to just take time tothink because when you're
writing and you're immersed,you're almost always in the back
of your mind thinking about thestory.
Like you're showering, you'rethinking about the story, you're
doing chores, you're thinkingabout the story, you're driving,
(34:26):
you're thinking about thestory.
And so time away helps to kindof you know, just have things
because we'll have-- all authorswill be like, "And then all of
a sudden I knew the answer." Butthat takes time.
And then also, just as a cheat,I will sometimes write
non-chronologically.
Hollyn (34:46):
Oh, yeah.
Cindy (34:46):
So I'll skip it.
So I'll be like, I don't knowwhat's gonna happen between this
and this scene, but I know thatthis scene is gonna happen a
little bit later.
So let me just go ahead andwrite this scene, and then
some-- and it's kind of like ajigsaw puzzle.
And some-- not all of my novelswere written in like linear
form, but this one was, thiscurrent one.
(35:07):
So whatever works for you, youknow.
Yeah.
But time away and then alsoskipping it, so it's not such a
thing, like you're like, oh, Idon't know, I don't know, I
don't know, and then it kind ofbecomes a thing, you know, and
you're-- that you blockyourself.
Hollyn (35:19):
And I feel like a lot of people think that taking time
away is counterproductivebecause it's not- No, if I go
further into the cave, I'll findthe answer.
But yeah, sometimes takingtime.
Cindy (35:26):
And sometimes writing wrong.
Hollyn (35:28):
Right.
Cindy (35:28):
Because you'll write it and you're like, oh, this is
really wrong.
You're like, okay, no,
You just know that it's wrong.
Yeah.
So you sometimes you have towrite wrong to write right.
Yeah.
Hollyn (35:37):
That's a good quote.
I'm gonna steal that.
What is your world buildingprocess?
Because you have thesebeautiful, intricate worlds, so
what is your strategy forcreating worlds that feel real
and detailed?
Cindy (35:51):
Again, I do a lot of research, but as I said, I
hadn't even gone to China by thepoint by when I had written my
debut novel.
So I just had for SilverPhoenix, I had so many books
like reference like giant coffeebooks of China and like just so
I can try and immerse myself.
But for me, my world buildingis very sensory.
(36:12):
So I have adult fantasy, likeKate Elliott is a friend and
also such a good writer,amazing, multiple plot lines,
big cast of characters.
And her world building is like,what is the magic system?
What is the political system?
What religion is dominant?
What is the topography?
(36:32):
What is the geography?
What is grown?
Like she thinks like farming,like she thinks like the whole
world.
Whereas I'm just like in thehead.
That's why young adult tendsto be first person or like very
near third.
So I'm just in their head and Iwant to feel what they feel.
I want to see what they see.
I you know, that's-- my worldbuilding is sensory, and that's
(36:55):
why Taipei was so great.
Because, like you said, everysense, like I know when I land
in Taipei.
Like I I just smell it and Ican feel it, you know, and I
know that like I'm home, youknow.
And so that's how yeah, that'show I write. That's my world
building.
I just try to put you in theirshoes more so than anything
else.
Hollyn (37:14):
Yeah, that feels like a very great strategy, especially
because for a lot of visualwriters, it's really hard to
just be like, oh my gosh, I haveto write, but like I'm so into
the sensory details.
But no, you don't have to, itdoesn't have to be exclusive.
You can just--
Cindy (37:30):
I'm very visceral, yeah.
Hollyn (37:31):
And I mean it sort of works out because I've seen I've
seen writers that are, youknow, very talented, but the
worlds don't-- they feel 2D.
But sometimes being moreimmersed in the senses is just
yeah, it feels 3D.
The author is immersed in thisworld, the senses because they
come alive, because a big partof the world is the senses.
Because if you don't have thesenses, what do you really
(37:53):
have? And as I mentioned in theintroduction, you're the
co-founder of Diversity in YAwith Malinda Lo.
And so why is diversity soimportant to you, especially in
the world of literature and YAliterature specifically?
Cindy (38:06):
Well, we've-- that's kind of like in rest now because
again, something that we startedin 2011.
You know, we I think we carriedit on for a good eight years or
so.
And then I think at that timeit was again very much we didn't
see a lot of representation,especially in young adult, and
middle grade and children'sstories that I feel like you
(38:28):
really should haverepresentation, especially given
how diverse we are in theUnited States, you know, and how
interesting other cultures andother stories and other lens,
you know, P-O-V.
That's it's important.
It's part of us, you know.
So that's what we were kind ofestablishing.
And at that time, there was abig tour going on, like made by
(38:52):
authors themselves.
Because the Diversity in YAtour was just me and Malinda
arranging it.
But a little bit like a year ortwo before that, it was another
book tour, and it was all leadtitle.
It was really all lead titleauthors, and it was very
homogenous.
Let's just say they were goingto all the cities and there was
just not representation.
(39:12):
And so I joked, I'm alwaysjoking.
So I joked with Malinda.
I was like, why don't we justdo a diversity tour by
ourselves?
And so that's exactly what wedid in 2011.
Hollyn (39:22):
That's amazing.
Cindy (39:23):
Yeah, and now it-- we still need it, but it's better.
But it's, you know, it's kindof yeah.
We still we still have work todo, but it's better.
Hollyn (39:31):
What is the most difficult part of writing a
character and developing them?
Cindy (39:35):
I feel like finding the voice and just yeah, just
knowing who they are.
Like I said, a lot of times Idon't know their motivations, I
don't know, you know, whatevertheir hurts and insecurities and
everything until I get to theend of the story.
And so I kind of have to telltheir story to myself first.
Hollyn (39:53):
Yeah.
Cindy (39:53):
Yeah.
It's kind of a get-to-know kindof thing.
Yeah.
Hollyn (39:57):
What is your favorite genre to write in?
Is it fantasy?
Cindy (40:00):
It is fantasy.
It is fantasy.
And even-- I tried contemporaryfor a hot second, and it-- I
tried and I tried, and I waslike, "When do when did the
monsters come?
Like, when does the magichappen?" It's just it's-- and
the contemporary writers arelike, "How do you make all this
weird stuff up?" They're like,"What is this?" They can't
imagine being fantasy writersand yeah, and I--
Hollyn (40:22):
I can't imagine just writing in the real world.
That seems so--
Cindy (40:27):
But contemporary when I read it, I'm like, oh, this is
really good.
Hollyn (40:32):
Same.
Cindy (40:32):
But when do you-- Yeah, so that's just how I am.
Yeah.
Hollyn (40:36):
Yeah.
I mean, I respect thecontemporary writers.
I could never do that.
I always have to include somesort of fantastical element.
Cindy (40:44):
Oh, so you write too?
Hollyn (40:45):
Yeah, I do.
I'm a writer.
Cindy (40:46):
That's awesome!
Hollyn (40:48):
Thank you so much.
In all of your series, foodplays a huge, huge role.
Like, and if to any listenerslistening, do not read Cindy's
books if you're hungry.
Cindy (40:59):
It's true.
Hollyn (40:59):
Eat a dinner, eat a big dinner, and then read Cindy's
books.
And then you'll probably gethungry just reading it.
Was that intentional?
And why was it important foryou to incorporate this?
Cindy (41:10):
It was not intentional.
And so I feel like it'sbecause, like I said, Taiwanese,
we like to eat.
And so it was just obviouslylike, you know, Western fantasy
is like, here's stew.
Hollyn (41:22):
Oh my gosh.
Cindy (41:23):
And a hunk of bread and a slice of cheese or whatever it
is that they eat.
And I'm like, well, I'm gonnawrite my fantasy, and they're
gonna have noodles and you know,dumplings.
And why wouldn't, and so it'spart of world, like I said, it's
sensory and it's part ofworld-building, the rituals
and the cultures that areassociated with food, right?
And so that just seemednatural.
(41:44):
And I didn't realize untilbecause it was one of the first
Asian fantasies in young adultthat I was getting angry tweets
at midnight going, you know,"Cindy Pon, I'm so hungry, and
it can't just be a toast, it hasto be dumplings!" It was so
funny.
So I'm like, maybe I need toput like a little warning label
onto it, like, don't, you know,read it when you're hungry.
(42:06):
Do not read when hungry.
Cereal's not gonna work.
Hollyn (42:08):
What do you hope your audience takes away from all of
your work?
Cindy (42:12):
I feel like I'm hopeful.
That's just how I am.
So I say Want is dystopian, butit's not really dystopian.
I like to leave you with like asense of hope that you can do
something.
I want to leave readers with alove for story.
Hollyn (42:32):
Yeah.
Cindy (42:33):
And just hope like that they can, if there's a
challenge, that they can mayberise to the challenge.
That's what I like to leavereaders with.
Hollyn (42:41):
That's really beautiful.
Cindy (42:42):
Thank you.
Hollyn (42:44):
And now we're gonna go into the more fun section of the
podcast, the lightning roundquestions.
So basically the format forthese is quick question, quick
answer.
Cindy (42:54):
Okay, no wrong answer.
Hollyn (42:55):
No wrong answer at all.
Cindy (42:57):
All right.
Hollyn (42:58):
They're silly questions, they're not like what is the
meaning of life?
Cindy (43:03):
Okay, lightning round.
Yes.
Hollyn (43:04):
Okay, three, two, one.
What is your go-to karaokesong?
Cindy (43:08):
Oh my gosh.
Probably something by Madonna.
Hollyn (43:11):
Oh, obviously.
Madonna's great.
Cindy (43:14):
Yeah.
I think for me, I feel like mygo-to karaoke song is right now
anything Chappell Roan, justbecause.
Oh, I love her.
And that's what I playedcoming.
I wish I saw her in concert.
Hollyn (43:24):
My gosh, me too.
Cindy (43:25):
She's too popular now.
She's probably taking a break,but yeah, next time her tickets
are gonna get so hard to try andget tickets for.
What movie could you watch overand over again?
Um, I love-- probably The Princess Bride.
Hollyn (43:40):
Ooh, Princess Bride's a good one.
Cindy (43:43):
That's a to watch again.
Yeah.
It's so old.
Hollyn (43:46):
Yeah.
How old is it, 20 years?
Cindy (43:49):
Oh my gosh, more than--
Hollyn (43:51):
50?
Cindy (43:52):
Probably going on 40.
Yeah, definitely 30.
Yeah.
Hollyn (43:56):
Yeah.
I mean, that makes sense.
Cindy (43:58):
And that's fantasy.
You know, and it's fun.
It has monsters and it's justsweet.
So yeah.
It's funny.
Yeah.
Hollyn (44:06):
I think for me, I-- my parents and I always used to
joke that I would I could watchHome Alone over and over.
Cindy (44:15):
Is that your comfort show?
Hollyn (44:17):
Kind of.
I mean, right now I'm taking alittle bit of a break because I
have seen it so much that I canrecite certain parts of the
movie by memory.
Cindy (44:25):
And Macaulay's a grown man.
That's how long it's been.
Hollyn (44:29):
Yeah.
And I think also right now I'mgetting into the-- a stupid, a
lot of stupid movies.
So like UHF by Weird Al.
I could watch that movieover and over again.
Cindy (44:40):
So you want to just like relax.
Hollyn (44:42):
I like to relax, yeah.
Cindy (44:42):
And just be brain less.
Hollyn (44:43):
Yeah.
Cindy (44:44):
And just like, ah, yeah.
Hollyn (44:45):
For me, the books is where I really stimulate the
intellect.
Cindy (44:47):
I totally understand that.
Hollyn (44:48):
Um, but the movies are just, oh ha ha, just two guys in
a top hat making weird soundslike...
Cindy (44:53):
Oh, that's funny.
H (44:53):
Do you prefer coffee or tea?
Cindy (44:53):
Coffee.
100%.
Hollyn (45:02):
I don't know.
Where's matcha?
Matcha is a tea.
Yeah, but I feel like it's in between.
It's like that liminal space.
Cindy (45:08):
No.
Hollyn (45:10):
No.
Cindy (45:12):
No. It's tea.
It's tea.
I like matcha, so I guess-- Iguess tea?
I guess I can go with tea.
Yeah.
Hollyn (45:19):
What was your dream job as a kid?
Cindy (45:22):
Oh wow.
Um, I think writer and alsoteacher because I like to write
on the board.
But that was when there waschalk.
Now it's just Expo markers.
So now I definitely don't wantto be a teacher because there's
no, like, I loved writingbecause I would watch my
teachers write with and then I'dbe like you erase.
And I was like, wow, that's socool.
(45:42):
And now there's no, there's nojoy.
There's no chalk boards.
Hollyn (45:49):
I think for a long time I wanted to be an author, but
there was also a phase in mylife where I wanted to be a
marine biologist specifically.
Cindy (45:56):
Yeah.
Hollyn (45:57):
I had no
Cindy (45:58):
Come to UCSD, go to Scripps.
Hollyn (46:00):
Yeah.
Cindy (46:00):
Yeah, for sure.
Hollyn (46:01):
I'll check it out.
Cindy (46:03):
And you can be an author no matter what you're doing.
That's the good thing aboutbeing an author.
Hollyn (46:07):
It's like marine biologist by day, author by
night.
Cindy (46:11):
100%.
Hollyn (46:12):
Are you more of a morning person or a night owl?
Cindy (46:14):
Oh my gosh.
I'm a night owl.
100%.
Yeah, I'm usually up till two.
So yeah, I don't like to get upbefore 10.
Hollyn (46:22):
That's fair.
I'm the complete opposite.
I like being in bed by 9 30.
Cindy (46:27):
Oh my gosh.
Hollyn (46:28):
And I like waking up at 6 30.
Cindy (46:30):
Oh my gosh.
That's wild.
Yeah, I had to get up early formy kids, and now they're both
grown up enough that I don'thave to wake up anymore.
So I can go back to my nightowl ways.
Hollyn (46:40):
Yes.
Yeah.
Do you like your-- and samevein, do you like your
mattresses firm or soft?
Cindy (46:46):
I think I like firm, but with a little padding.
Hollyn (46:49):
Yeah.
Cindy (46:49):
Firm with padding.
Yeah.
Not squidgy.
Squidgy.
I don't want to sink into it.
I like it to be--
Hollyn (46:56):
Agreed.
I think I like firm but with alittle bit of softness as well.
Cindy (46:59):
Yes, exactly.
Hollyn (47:00):
It's not like I'm-- why am I on a plank of wood?
Cindy (47:02):
They'll put like a little plushy pad, but then the actual
mattress itself is supportive.
Hollyn (47:07):
Yeah.
But I like my pillow soft andthen my mattress slightly
firmer.
That's me.
Cindy (47:12):
Okay.
Hollyn (47:14):
If there was a spider in your house, would you kill it
or set it free?
Cindy (47:18):
Um, I was setting it free for a long time until I got bit
by a spider at home and I gotstaph or something, like it
swelled up to like the size of atennis ball.
Hollyn (47:30):
Oh my god.
Cindy (47:30):
And then so then I was like, maybe I shouldn't save the
spiders.
But it it depends becausethere's a daddy long legs.
Hollyn (47:36):
Right, the daddy long legs.
Cindy (47:37):
So it depends.
If they're like kind of big andburly and I can see them from
across the room, then I'm like,mm.
But then I also heard that ifyou put them out, that they die.
Hollyn (47:46):
Yeah, apparently spiders are super territorial.
Cindy (47:49):
Yeah, so I don't know.
So I don't know if I'm doingthem any favors.
It might be like you're liketaking them and you're like
throwing them into Africa orsomething.
Like you're like in Californiaand then you're you toss them
and they're like, What'shappening?
Like maybe they're just likeso...
But then after I got bit, I waslike, uh, maybe not.
Hollyn (48:05):
I mean, I usually just say, Oh, well, maybe they'll
kill the other spider.
Cindy (48:09):
Yeah.
It depends on how scary theylook.
Daddy long legs are not super--Like if they're tiny little
ones, then yeah.
Hollyn (48:15):
Also apparently, even though daddy long legs are like
the most poisonous spider, theycan't actually bite you.
Cindy (48:20):
I didn't know that.
Hollyn (48:20):
Yeah, but their teeth are-- they can't penetrate human
skin.
So you're okay.
Cindy (48:24):
Oh, okay.
Hollyn (48:24):
I usually set them free.
I'm just like, "Fend foryourself, my little gladiator!"
Cindy (48:30):
You do the whole cup thing.
Hollyn (48:31):
Yeah, I do the whole cup thing with the slice of-- the
piece of paper.
And then I'll even go to theeffort of going to the kitchen
and getting it, and then when Icome back, the spider's gone.
Cindy (48:39):
And you're like, where'd you go?
Hollyn (48:40):
And I'm just like, you can have my house now, it's
yours.
What was your last Halloweencostume?
Cindy (48:46):
Oh my gosh.
I can't think of the lastHalloween costume I had on, but
I did dress up as Chun Li forComic Con.
Hollyn (48:52):
Oh my gosh, that's awesome.
Cindy (48:53):
Do you know Chun Li?
Hollyn (48:54):
Chun Li, yeah.
Cindy (48:55):
Okay, yeah, yeah.
From Street Fighter.
Hollyn (48:57):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I didn't know the video gameshe came from, but I knew the
character.
Cindy (49:01):
Okay.
Hollyn (49:01):
I think my last Halloween costume was Little Red
Riding Hood, but she killed thewolf.
So it's like I put wolf fur onthe cape.
Oh, I think.
And then I had like a hatchet--
Cindy (49:11):
Oh, wow.
Hollyn (49:12):
--that I painted blood on.
Um
Cindy (49:14):
So badass Little Red Riding Hood. I like it.
Yeah, badass Little Red Riding Hood. That'sthe way I sold the costume,
I was like, yeah, I'm Little RedRiding Hood, but badass.
That's awesome.
Hollyn (49:21):
Thank you so much.
And what is a skill that youwould really want to have?
Cindy (49:26):
A skill...
to not get lost?
Hollyn (49:30):
Oh. That is so fair.
I'm so directionally challenged. Butnow we, I mean, you don't
understand.
We didn't have the phones.
Right, right.
Cindy (49:39):
I literally drove on the five the wrong way for like I
don't know how long, like when Iwas your age.
Like I got on the freeway and Iwent the wrong way for like who
knows how long.
And then I was like, oh, wheream I?
So yeah, now we do have like atleast we have GPS and stuff,
but--
Hollyn (49:55):
Thank God.
Cindy (49:56):
I was so lost.
I don't know which and yeah,and so interestingly enough, it
comes across in my fantasynovels.
Like one of my editors waslike, Would you like a map?
And I was like, a map for what?
I have no idea where my heroineis.
I go right, I go left.
Hollyn (50:15):
Backwards, forwards.
Cindy (50:15):
There's a blob of a land, like that's why, that's why my
you know, world building doesn'textend to like mountain ranges
and she just kind of wandersaround lost like I do in real
life.
So yeah, it comes across in myfantasy stories.
Hollyn (50:32):
I think for me, a skill that I would really like to have
is dancing.
Like I see all the K-pop.
Cindy (50:37):
For the TikToks?
Hollyn (50:38):
No, no, no, no, not the TikToks.
I mean, like, I don't want todo that.
Cindy (50:41):
Yeah, yeah, the K-pop because they do so much of the
group dancing.
Hollyn (50:44):
Yeah, I feel like that'd be really fun to do.
Also, hip hop would be supercool.
And also just imagine justbreak dancing.
Cindy (50:50):
Oh, I can not dance either.
Hollyn (50:52):
I would love to just do that.
I don't know.
My limbs just-- they don'tcooperate with me when I try to
dance.
Cindy (50:57):
I'm very uncoordinated.
I can't even do aerobics.
So yeah.
Hollyn (51:02):
What is your favorite word?
Cindy (51:04):
I don't know.
I like funny words, funny longwords, like you know, like
bamboozle or befuddled orgobsmacked or flabbergasted,
long words like that.
Hollyn (51:16):
I think I do too.
I love bamboozled.
And I also really like the wordasinine.
It sounds like you're saying abad word, but it's the noun,
it's not--
Cindy (51:28):
You're getting away with it.
Hollyn (51:29):
Yeah, it is because it means foolish or stupid, but
it's not like, oh, you're suchan asinine.
It's that was such an asininething to do.
It's more of an adjective todescribe something.
Cindy (51:38):
That is a good word.
Hollyn (51:39):
Yeah, yeah.
That's mine.
And then now the last question: what advice would you give to (51:41):
undefined
your younger self?
Cindy (51:46):
Um, I think just I think keep going.
Yeah, that's it.
Like enjoy the journey, keepgoing.
And that's what I've alwaysbeen trying to do.
Hollyn (51:55):
That's awesome.
That's such I feel like that'sgreat advice.
I think it's so simple, butit's so easy to forget, too.
Cindy (52:00):
Yeah.
Hollyn (52:00):
So before we wrap up, I wanted to ask if there's a
specific organization or causethat's near and dear to your
heart.
Cindy (52:07):
That's a great question.
And so, We Need Diverse Books,definitely is still going
strong, and that kind of came--they kind of, yeah, they
arrived on the scene, and that'swhy Diversity in YA we're like,
oh man, you guys are doinggreat work, and it's huge.
Like they do so many, they dointernships for people to be in
publishing to trying-- it's notjust about publishing and having
(52:27):
more diversity, but you need adiverse background in all of the
people that are choosing thebooks, right?
Editors, booksellers,librarians, all of that.
So they do so much grants, theydo-- so that I would say, and
they run fundraisers at leastonce a year.
So it's incredible, incrediblework.
Yeah.
Hollyn (52:45):
Well, everybody go check out We Need Diverse Books.
It sounds like an incredibleorganization.
Thank you so much for comingonto this podcast, Cindy.
I had a blast.
Cindy (52:54):
Yes, we laughed a lot.
Hollyn (52:56):
Yes.
Cindy (52:56):
Awesome.
Thank you for having me,Hollyn.
I can't wait to see this.
Hollyn (52:59):
Yes! Thanks for listening to Stories Without
Borders the podcast.
Please rate and review the showon your favorite podcast
platform.
You can learn more online atstorieswithout borders.org or
follow us on Instagram atstories underscore without
borders.
And if you like watching yourpodcasts, subscribe to our
YouTube channel at Storiesunderscore without borders.
(53:22):
Stories Without Borders, thepodcast, is written, hosted, and
produced by me, Hollyn Alpert.
I also wrote and performed thetheme music.
Danuta Amato is our soundengineer, audio editor, and
videographer.
Kennedy Hibbert is our videoeditor.
Thanks to Liberty Yanaga andLangston Williams for production
support.
See you all next time.
Welcome to Stories Without Borders, the podcast.
I'm your host, Hollyn.
Here we interview people whouse the power of stories and
service to promote connection,empathy, and understanding
around the world.
You can learn more online atstorieswithoutborders.org or
follow us on Instagram andYouTube at stories underscore
without borders.
Thanks for listening.
Here's today's episode.
(00:27):
Today we are speaking with CindyPon.
Cindy is the author of SilverPhoenix, which was named one of
the top ten fantasy and sciencefiction books for youth by
Booklist, and one of 2009's bestfantasy science fiction and
horror by Voya.
Her follow-up novels in thesame universe, Serpentine and
Sacrifice, were both JuniorLibrary Guild selections and
(00:48):
received starred reviews fromthe School Library Journal and
Kirkus Reviews, respectively.
She also wrote Want, a FreemanBook Award honorable mention,
and its sequel Ruse.
She is the co-founder ofDiversity in YA with Malinda Lo.
Cindy has been a student ofChinese brush painting for
almost two decades and has nowdelved into learning how to
(01:09):
paint in oils.
She loves to travel, lift, andhunt for cute shinies on Pokemon
Go.
So welcome, Cindy.
I'm so excited to have you onthis podcast.
Cindy (01:17):
I'm so happy to finally be here.
Thank you, Hollyn.
Hollyn (01:20):
Of course.
I'd love to start off withtalking about your author origin
story.
So specifically, what made youdecide slash want to be a
writer?
Cindy (01:29):
Um, I think I have a little bit of a different
background in that I came tothe United States from Taiwan
when I was six years old.
Hollyn (01:38):
Right.
Cindy (01:39):
And I was ESL in the 80s.
And I have a very distinctmemory of going in mid-year.
It was March, first grade, andI didn't know the alphabet.
I only knew my name was Cindy,and I didn't even know how to
write it.
And so I remember the teacherwriting my name up on the board,
and it was just such a strugglebecause at six, it's that time
(02:00):
where you're learning tocommunicate, and it was
basically all taken away fromme.
Like I went into a world wherenobody could understand me.
And so I was pooled with otherlittle immigrant kids.
I remember in like an hour, Idon't know if it was every day,
but it was to learn English.
Hollyn (02:19):
Right.
Cindy (02:19):
And my mom teaching me like, you know, the colors and
how to spell it out.
And I remember practicing.
And then all of a sudden, inthird grade, I could read.
And it was just like a jumpbetween-- I don't remember
second grade, but when I wasable to read, and then the
Scholastic book orders came andI would choose books, it felt
(02:39):
like literal magic because Iwent from like nothing to all of
a sudden the world opened upfor me.
And I realized that a lot ofthat informs my storytelling
because I always write theunderdog, I always write the
person that's kind of on theoutside or straddling worlds,
literally.
Like, you know, and so I don'trealize that until I'm books in
(03:01):
and I'm like, oh, this is whatis my origin story that affected
me enough that, you know, Imean, now I sound like a Cali
girl, like I'm on the phone andpeople are like, oh, you're
blonde, and you're like, theycan't tell.
But that is, I always rememberbeing on the outside for not,
yeah.
So I think that that informs alot of my storytelling.
Hollyn (03:21):
And so it was really just that moment for you just,
oh my gosh, stories.
I can read stories.
Yes.
Cindy (03:26):
And writers are always readers.
Hollyn (03:28):
Right.
Cindy (03:29):
So yeah.
So if you love to read, then alot of times you're like, can I
tell my own story?
Like, what if I start?
Then you're there's always thisstuff in your head, you know,
like imagination and just makingstuff up.
Yeah, I always describe writingas sort of an outlet for ideas
that you have, especially ifyou're a reader, you have to get
these ideas on the page becauseit's oh, all these other
(03:49):
authors do it.
Why can't I do it?
Definitely, definitely.
Hollyn (03:52):
And I'm curious, you mentioned that you only knew
your name was Cindy.
Did your parents give you thatEnglish name?
Cindy (03:56):
Yeah, my mom gave it to me.
I even asked her, I'm not aCynthia, I'm just a Cindy.
So yeah, I was like, how didyou pick that name?
And she just picked it.
Hollyn (04:05):
And she just picked it?
Cindy (04:06):
I yeah, she liked it, and she doesn't-- I don't even know
why.
And so that's who I am.
Hollyn (04:11):
That's awesome. Was it based on your Chinese
name, or...?
Cindy (04:15):
No, mm-mm, not at all.
My Chinese name is my middlename.
Yeah,
Hollyn (04:18):
Oh, that's awesome.
Cindy (04:19):
Yeah.
Hollyn (04:19):
If you don't mind me asking, what is your Chinese
name?
Cindy (04:21):
Um, it's Wei Jie.
Hollyn (04:22):
Wei Jie, that's such a pretty name.
Cindy (04:24):
Thank you.
Hollyn (04:25):
I'd love to delve into the Kingdom of Xia, which is
your first fantasy and alsodebut universe that you publish
a debut novel in.
You've created this universefull of rich culture.
This is the first book that Ireally saw Asian characters
thrive, and it just felt like,oh, this is not an Asian
character in the Western world.
This is an Asian character inan Asian world.
(04:47):
And obviously there's room forboth, but it was just so
incredible to see-- it has suchinteresting mythology, history,
traditions.
What were some of thechallenges when you were coming
up with this world, creatingthis world?
And what were some things thatyou learned along the way?
Silver Phoenix was my firstnovel that I wrote in my 30s.
And as I told you, it was agood 20 years ago that I started
(05:09):
researching and writing.
And I just kind of did it forfun.
And when I actually finishedthe novel, I was like, oh, why
don't I just try and get itpublished?
And it wasn't until it didpublish that I realized that I
was basically writing for myyounger self because I'm such a
fantasy reader.
(05:29):
Yeah.
Cindy (05:30):
And I didn't know until then, when I saw my cover that
I'd never read a fantasy novelwith anybody that looked like me
in any of the stories that Iread.
And I was a prolific reader.
And so it was kind of, I guess,maybe a healing thing.
Like you do so many things on asubconscious level, especially
when it's your first novel, thatit's with a lens that you look
(05:51):
back and you're like, oh, thisis what I was trying to do.
I was writing for young Cindy.
And so it was hard because atthat time I had never been to
China.
So I was just like, I want todo Chinese inspired.
And there was just a lot ofresearch that went in with it.
And I didn't know how to writea novel.
I wrote the first 50 pages andI kept revising the first 50
pages over and over againbecause I've written short
(06:11):
stories.
Hollyn (06:12):
I feel like we've all been caught in that trap--
Cindy (06:14):
That was my comfort.
And I was like, well, let mejust revise, let me revise.
And I said, What?
And then I thought, Oh, I have200 more pages to write.
What am I gonna do?
It was just very daunting, andI had young kids at the time.
And so I kind of just struggledthrough it.
And after I was done, I wasproud, you know, it's not--
Hollyn (06:32):
As you should be.
Cindy (06:33):
Oh, thank you.
It's not like amazing, but thenI looked around, and when I try
to sell it, they're like,there's nothing.
When you go to a publisher,they always want to compare
because they were like, whenthey try to pitch the sales,
they're like, "This is theequivalent of our Hunger Games
plus this." And my editor thatacquired it, she said, there are
no comps.
(06:53):
We could not find anythingexcept for this maybe adult
thing, but nothing in youngadult.
And at that time, all of theAsian-inspired fantasies were
written by white authors, and sothe lens was very much, I feel
like a lot of times, especiallywhen white men write, it's very
exotified.
Hollyn (07:13):
Oh, 100%.
Cindy (07:14):
Um, yeah.
So I didn't, I mean, justbecause it was my lens, I wasn't
doing that.
And so it kind of became whatdrove me to write more
Asian-inspired fantasy because Iwas one of five doing it in
young adult.
Hollyn (07:29):
We've sort of talked about this, but how did you
approach writing Silver Phoenixand Serpentine in terms of the
chronology and like--
Cindy (07:36):
Oh yeah.
Hollyn (07:36):
Yeah, was there like a specific timeline or order that
you chose to write them in?
Cindy (07:40):
Um, no, I'm a very intuitive writer.
I'm very organic.
I would say I'm a pantser, Idon't plan things out very much.
And I tend to write, becauseI-- when Silver Phoenix came
out, they're like, oh well,that's a cliffhanger.
And you obviously did thatbecause you want to write
another book.
And no, like all of my-- everyone of these duologies I
(08:02):
consider standalone.
Yeah, want could be standalone,Serpentine could be standalone.
And so it's very much a matterof I'll finish it and then
I'll-- and then my editor willbe like, is there more?
And then I'll think about itand I'll be like, oh yeah, there
is more.
You know, I can't-- but it'snever more than a duology
because I feel like for atrilogy, you really do have to
(08:24):
plan it out.
You can't like, you know, kindof bumble your way through--
then the readers will be like,"This is a mess.
This isn't, this doesn't work."And so naturally I kind of
write in duologies.
Hollyn (08:35):
Yeah, I noticed that because all three of your
published series, they're allduologies.
And I was just like, oh, isthis just sort of what she
gravitates to?
Cindy (08:41):
It's just what I do.
Yeah, I just-- I guess, I meanI'll do the first book in a very
close kind of first personperspective.
And then the second book willbe the consequences of the first
book.
And in order to tell the secondstory, I almost always have to
open up to multiple POV.
When you're starting out,there's a lot of rules about
(09:02):
writing, and new writers want toknow the rules.
Hollyn (09:05):
Right.
Cindy (09:06):
But for me as a writer, it's what serves the story.
And I'll break the rules, likeyou know, don't do this, don't
do that.
But if it serves the story andit is doing what I need it to
do, and if you do it well,that's the thing.
If you do it well and you do itwith the conviction that you
are as a storyteller, it'llwork.
Because if you believe it, thenthe reader will believe it.
That's, yeah, that's whatmatters.
(09:27):
So that's that kind of is-- nowthat I'm so many duologies in,
I realize like that's kind ofwhat I do.
Hollyn (09:34):
Would you ever return to the kingdom of Xia?
Cindy (09:37):
Um, never say never.
Hollyn (09:39):
Right.
Cindy (09:39):
For sure.
Uh yeah.
So I don't know.
Um, I tried to-- this new novelthat I just finished that's
being pitched right now, I triedto return and I couldn't.
And so you-- but you neverknow.
Hollyn (09:53):
Right.
Cindy (09:54):
Because, you know, writers, they grow and they
might outgrow a world or theymay outgrow something.
And now I have, like I said,when I was writing it, it was
very much like I want to do thisfor me, but I want to do it for
readers that might look likeme, but at the same time just
for fantasy lovers.
And then by the time that I wasreturning to write another
(10:17):
fantasy novel, there were somany up and coming other Asian
American writers in writingAsian inspired.
Like I was literally, and thenall of a sudden there was like a
whole wave, you know, and manyof them are like, "I read you,
Cindy Pon, and I knew it waspossible." And that really blows
up my world because when I wasdoing it, it was very solitary
and it felt very alone.
(10:38):
And it was very much my firstnovel.
They're like, "You failed." Andyeah, so it was like you failed
and you can't write any moreAsian fantasy.
So it it's yeah, it was kind ofit, it is kind of brutal.
You don't get to come back, youknow, as a writer of color.
Like they make it a lot, likeif you fail the one time,
whereas you know, white storiesthat fail, they they they'll
(10:59):
keep trying, you know.
It's so they're like,obviously, it's because it's
Chinese- inspired, and you-- butit came out in 2009 when the
economy tanked.
Hollyn (11:07):
Right.
Cindy (11:08):
And so it was a lot of other things going on at the
same time.
So yeah.
And they also didn't market it.
So that helps.
I mean, yeah, I mean, thathelps in why it didn't, you
know, do very well.
Hollyn (11:19):
Yeah, I mean, I mean, it-- Silver Phoenix was the
first.
I mean, I think it was thefirst--
Cindy (11:25):
It was the first.
Hollyn (11:25):
--Asian American fantasy novel--
In young adult.
Yeah, to be published by like a major publishing house.
And I mean, and I'm and I'msitting here thinking, why
haven't I heard of this before?
Why haven't, why didn't, youknow, nine-year-old me know
about this?
Cindy (11:41):
Yeah.
It's hard to be a trailblazerbecause you're setting the path
and you have to show that it canit can actually be published.
Then people were using me as acomp.
They'd be like, oh, it wasSilver Phoenix combined with
something else.
And so it's not, it doesn'tseem as risky.
If you're the first, it seemsrisky.
And then they didn't, and thenthey were also trying to
(12:01):
probably-- I had librarians thatwere like, well, we don't have
students of that population inour-- and then I thought, you
know, I love Asian Americanreaders that find me, but I was
reading white fantasy.
Like I'm-- a fantasy reader isa fantasy reader.
Hollyn (12:17):
Exactly!
Cindy (12:17):
So that was what-- you kind of niche it yourself.
And then if the publishersniche it or the librarians or
any of the gatekeepers, thebooksellers, if they niche it
and they're like, "We're in themiddle of Idaho and nobody's
gonna buy Asian fantasy," thenyou know, then I get hurt as an
author.
So it's challenging in verymany ways.
Hollyn (12:37):
I feel like if you're only reading books that reflect
yourself, I mean, I feel likeyou do grow, but you're also not
Cindy (12:43):
It's-- I love reading other cultures and other media.
You learn so much becausethey-- that's your-- you're in
their shoes.
And then it's just I love itso much.
Hollyn (12:52):
I mean, obviously you can never fully understand the
experience, but it's really goodto get that perspective and
see, "Oh!" I had a reallyimpactful English teacher and
she's told me, you either readthrough a mirror or you're
reading as a window.
Cindy (13:04):
Yeah.
Hollyn (13:04):
And I feel like it's important to have both.
Cindy (13:06):
Both, yeah.
Hollyn (13:07):
Because if you're only reading through a window, you
might feel isolated.
You might feel, I don't feellike I'm properly reflected on
the page, and this makes youfeel alone, nobody understands
my experience.
But then if you only readthrough a mirror, you don't
grow.
Cindy (13:20):
Yeah.
100%.
Hollyn (13:22):
Yeah.
And sometimes you need to breakthe glass, you'll just be like,
knock knock, I'm making my ownwindow.
Cindy (13:27):
Exactly.
Yeah, it's been a journey.
So I'm-- I've loved it.
It's been a challenge, but Iloved it.
Hollyn (13:32):
Now, why don't we dive into your sci-fi duology Want?
This duology is set in acompletely different world than
the kingdom of Xia.
It's a near future dystopia setin Taipei and Taiwan.
And basically the premise ofthe book is the air pollution is
so bad, and just pollution ingeneral is so bad that the
wealthy have constructed thesespace suits that provide
(13:54):
filtered air and they justbreathe, and then everybody else
is just suffering.
Cindy (13:57):
Yeah.
Hollyn (13:58):
How was it different?
And we've sort of talkedabout-- how was it different?
How was it similar if it wassimilar in certain aspects?
And what did you learn?
Cindy (14:06):
Oh, wow.
Um, it's so different in everyway.
And want came out of a shortstory that I had published in
Diverse Energies, and that wasin 2011 in response to dystopia
being the trend in young adult.
Hollyn (14:23):
Right.
Cindy (14:24):
Um, with The Hunger Games and then Divergent.
Um, there was a lot ofdystopia, and you know, dystopia
is like future and future beingproblematic or whatever, but
the future was very white.
Okay.
And so the Diverse Energies wasin response where we had, you
know, storytellers writing otherperspectives and other, you
(14:44):
know, people of color.
And I just made it up and Ijust thought, let me set it in
Taipei and let me write from ateen boy's, you know, POV, which
I never would have even triedif I was-- if it was a novel.
Like I would have been toointimidated because my voice is
fantasy girl.
Hollyn (15:01):
Right.
Cindy (15:01):
Which is the language is like more languid and more, you
know, lush, and I can fall intothat so easily.
That POV.
And boy, and I was like, oh mygosh, a boy.
But then I'm like, 5,000 words.
That's fine.
I can do 5,000 words.
So I wrote the the the firstchapter, the kidnapping is my
(15:22):
short story.
And so it was when they werelike, "No more fantasy from you
because you can't write.
The market says that you're notselling Asian fantasy.
We want something completelydifferent from you, Cindy Pon.
We like you, but it has to becompletely different." So I was
like, what about this sciencefiction novel full of Asian
(15:43):
people?
It won't be a fantasy full ofAsian people, but let me do this
sci fi.
So that's what I did instead.
And then I thought they werethey fascinated me.
That kidnapping, I was justthinking, why did he do this?
And who is this girl?
Like, I just loved both of themso much that I was brave
(16:03):
enough.
I said, You want somethingdifferent?
This is gonna be somethingdifferent.
And it was so challenging inevery way.
And as a writer, I like tochallenge myself with every new
project.
But this was just so hard forme.
And I would go away, I think Iwas doing, I don't know, but I
was coming back and forthbetween projects and I would
(16:25):
come back to Want.
And I have a critique groupthat I've used since my debut,
2009, which means I send thempages, they read it, they give
me feedback, and I'd step awayfrom Want for a bit.
And their feedback would be,"Um, Joe sounds like a
middle-aged woman again." Andthen I'd be like, crap, because
(16:46):
I had to, I like Joe.
I was like, you're a hottie,you're a hashtag, you're a
hashtag cute Asian boy.
I've been writing that sincebefore Asian boys were popular,
right?
And so I wanted him to be cute.
I wanted him to be a hero thatgirls liked, you know?
And so I-- he can't sound likea middle-aged lady.
And so, voice, I had to keepstruggling with voice.
(17:06):
I had to think about language.
The language is completelydifferent, right?
It's modern.
I had to think about slangbecause any kind of usage of
tech and slang will-- it took meso long to write, I was already
back in-- near future, wasalready current times.
Hollyn (17:23):
Right, right, right.
Cindy (17:24):
That I couldn't keep up.
And so it was challenging inall the ways, but I was so proud
of it and it was so fulfilling,especially because Taipei was a
character in itself, and it wasmy love story to Taipei.
And I had readers that werelike, "I never even knew about
Taipei.
And it seems like kind of likerough there, but it's so cool.
I want to visit, you know?" Andso that like made me so happy.
(17:47):
And it was the first, again,first YA set in Taipei
published.
So back in yeah, 2017.
So I was so proud.
Yeah.
Hollyn (17:56):
I want to go back to the bit where you were talking
about diction and slang.
And I mean, I did notice a lotof that in Want.
For example, the use of "mei",which means not having, is used
to describe people who don'thave spacesuits and who don't
have the ability to purchasethese expensive suits.
And then "you" is the peoplethat can.
And so as slang becomes, youknow, more ingrained in the
(18:19):
culture, it becomes just "mei"means poor and "you" means rich.
Cindy (18:23):
Yeah.
No, I yeah, the Chinese loveplaying with language, right?
And so for the Mandarin, thatworked for sure.
But the backstory to that isthat it used to be "yao" and
"you".
Hollyn (18:35):
Oh.
Cindy (18:36):
And so "yao" is to want.
And so that stayed as my titleand you--but my editor, when he
read it, he was like, I couldkeep up with it, but he was
like, the fact that they bothstart with "y" and and it's
three letters and it's in adifferent language, and he was
just like, "I'm afraid that um,you know, English readers are
(18:59):
gonna get it confused." Andthat's why I changed it, and
that was the only reason.
So yao, you know, they weresupposed to be a group of people
that were called "yao".
But I got to keep the title,and I love the title.
Now I'm wondering what wouldEnglish readers think if it was
just Yao, the title.
Yeah.
Hollyn (19:18):
That's so interesting.
Cindy (19:19):
They would never let you do that.
Hollyn (19:20):
No, no, no, they'd be like, Yeah, what is this?
Cindy (19:24):
Yeah.
Hollyn (19:24):
So I think something that Want did really well, Want
and Ruse, it was able to blendthe already existing culture of
Taipei, this future Taipei,Taipei that doesn't exist yet,
with the already existingTaipei.
And so, what were some of thechallenges you faced when you
were trying to integrate it?
Because obviously you do wantto stay and keep the Taipei
(19:47):
that's familiar to readers, butyou also do want to be like,
hey, this is-- we're not inpresent time, we're in future
time, there's gonna bedifferences.
Cindy (19:53):
So I think it was kind of a trick, really, on my part as
an author.
I don't know if you know HollyBlack. She's a good friend of
mine, and she has been a mentoralmost through most of my books
since Serpentine.
And I love her.
I love her books if you haven'tread her.
She's amazing.
And when I had talked aboutWant before it was even in
(20:15):
existence, she was like, "Oh,well, I would call that a near
future thriller." She's like,"Really, it's a cyberpunk,
Cindy, but they don't know whatcyberpunk is anymore." I was
like, okay, whatever Holly saysgoes.
And then so she was like, "Oh,well, it's going to be a heist.
So you need a squad and youneed a cast of characters, and
everybody brings something tothe table." So this was my first
talk when I was at a writinggroup.
(20:35):
And so I thought about all ofthese things.
And really, it was, I call itnear future thriller, but so
many of the headlines,especially since it took me at
least five years to write it,was they were current news.
So what I was doing was saying,this is our world.
Let me throw in some flyingcars just to trick you.
But what I'm trying to tell youis this could be us really
(20:59):
fast, right?
And so I'm not political, Idon't try to be didactic.
Like I don't think that that'show-- it's just is what went
into the story.
Like you can see what I worryabout and what I think about.
And so that was in the storyitself.
And I love the juxtapositionbecause that's exactly what you
think about when you go toTaiwan of the old juxtaposed
(21:20):
with the new, the temples withthe neon lights.
Like the the traditions of theold world, and then we're still
in the future.
And I just, it's all there.
Like it's not, I was just doinglike, let me just-- and then I
was saying, Oh, there were noApple watches, and they were
talking to their wrists, and Iwas like, Oh no, they have this,
and then they were talking totheir homes, and then the home
(21:41):
stuff.
And I was like, I can't keepup.
Hollyn (21:43):
Right.
Cindy (21:44):
Everything was-- I was writing, I said it was the
future, but I was writingactually into the contemporary
times.
And so, yeah, yeah.
So I say it's near future, butI really, it was really kind of
a warning.
Yeah, it was kind of a warning,especially with the pandemic,
it really underscored thedivision of wealth even more.
So yeah, yeah, it all kind ofis present time for me.
Hollyn (22:08):
Yeah, I mean, that makes sense.
I feel like there is a genre ofdystopian where it's like near
future, this could happenreally, really soon if we're not
careful.
And I feel like want definitelyfalls into that category.
And you said something aboutwhen Holly Black gave you
feedback and she said, Oh, youneed to have a group of friends
at the table.
Like these characters, Jason,Lingyi, Arun, they were all so
(22:31):
fun.
And again, they brought theirown elements to the table.
Lingyi was the leader, Jasonwas sort of like the heartthrob,
and they were almost like eachother's families.
Cindy (22:40):
Definitely it was found family.
Hollyn (22:41):
Yeah, it was a hundred percent found family.
And which of the characterscame to you first?
Was it Jason?
And also how did you developthe other characters and who
was--
Cindy (22:51):
It was definitely Daiyu and Jason because of the
kidnapping story.
So then I had to think aboutthe story and what kind of team
I needed to serve the story.
So it was very deliberate.
And then I thought about justcreating more of a multicultural
but also Asian cast.
And so I just had a lot of fun.
(23:12):
Because I don't plan the story,my first draft is really the
outline.
And then so the characters tellme their story, and then I
finish and I'm like, oh, then Iknow them and what they're
trying to say.
And that's when I go back andI'll revise like at least two to
three times to deepen thestoryline.
But I'm more plot-y.
(23:34):
So I feel like the interactionsand the relationships are what
I need to layer in more.
I feel like readers are reallydrawn to, you know, characters.
They're very invested incharacters.
Hollyn (23:45):
Oh, 100%.
Cindy (23:47):
And so that's what I work on more.
But yeah, I fall in love withthem like the reader falls in
love.
I get to know them like thereader gets to know them.
You know, after the firstdraft, I'm like, oh, now I see
who you are.
And Jason was actually veryinteresting in that I didn't
know where he was-- I didn'tknow where he was in the group.
He was obviously-- I made him ahero because it was his POV.
(24:09):
But I was trying so manydifferent things.
I remember one point, at onepoint Malinda, Malinda Lo, also
read her.
She's amazing.
She's like my author BFF.
She was like, well, maybe he'sa leader.
What if he's a leader?
Then he's important, right?
If you're the leader andeverybody listens to you, and I
kind of wrote that for a hotsecond and it just didn't feel
(24:30):
right.
And then I realized that he wasthe dispensable one.
He was the one that could begone and everybody else, he--
that's what he felt he was.
Hollyn (24:43):
Right.
Cindy (24:43):
That's why in the kidnapping he was like, "I'm
gonna do it because if I'marrested and I'm taken away
forever, everybody else hassomebody, everybody else has a
loved one or family or aconnection, I can be gone." So I
felt like it was veryinteresting to have the hero be
the one that was like, "I can doit.
Nobody needs me, right?
Like I can take the risks,right?
(25:03):
I'm gonna be rash and it'll befine, right?" And so that's why
when we did lose a character, hefelt really bad about it.
And that's why Ruse was allabout everybody getting past,
you know, trying to grieve intheir own way.
So sorry, that's like kind of aspoiler.
It's okay--spoiler alert! Thatmakes sense because you say you
write through the perspective ofthe underdog, usually.
(25:25):
Yeah.
Yeah, that's true.
He is who I was drawn to.
Yeah, yeah.
Hollyn (25:30):
So who was the most challenging character to
develop, would you say?
Well, I feel like I struggledwith him the most because it was
my-- I was trying to writethrough him, you know.
So I wanted to make himinteresting and relatable and
also sound authentic, his voice.
And so I had to really alwaysimmerse myself.
Whereas I didn't have to thinkas much with my other girl
(25:52):
characters.
I would just, you know, fallinto it.
But him, I had to really belike, okay, channel, you know,
cute Asian boy.
Talk like cute Asian boy, youknow, like, yeah, because you
know, so he was definitely themost challenging.
Yeah.
Why was it important for you to tell this specific
story?
I mean, we've talked aboutthis, but I feel like just want
(26:13):
to give you space to really justaddress the why.
Cindy (26:17):
Well, I mean, for me, I the story kind of surprised me
in what I wanted to say, but Ijust want-- it was a lot about
resistance, and this came out in2017.
So it's kind of wild that it'seven more, like it's just as
(26:38):
important now.
And I'll say that my form ofresistance is through my
storytelling.
I am not like-- I definitelysee what's going on in our
country right now, that is notgreat, but I'm not the type to
be holding signs and be on thestreet.
That's just not how I am.
(26:59):
Um, but me existing as astoryteller, as a woman of
color, as somebody who wants totalk about Taiwan, that is my
resistance, you know.
And so I just want the readersand hopefully young readers to
know that you can, you know,just by your voice, sometimes
(27:19):
just by existing is yourresistance because sometimes
things get hard and you might bestruggling with something that
nobody else knows about, or youcan't, you're too scared to talk
about.
Whatever it is, there's quietresistance too, and just that
you can change things.
I just wanted, it doesn't haveto be explosions because
obviously this is all veryexciting, like because it's
storytelling, it's a novel.
Hollyn (27:40):
Right.
Cindy (27:41):
But it's about fighting, it's about finding your group,
finding support, finding love,finding yourself, and still
being able to fight for what youfeel is true, you know, and
what is good and fighting foryour voice.
And so, yeah, that was like thestory I wanted to tell.
And also because again, my lovestory for Taipei, I just was so
(28:02):
happy to be able to publishsomething that I didn't think
that I would ever do that, youknow, because I was a fantasy
girly.
So, like, you know, fantasy is,you know, removed.
And so this, so there's manythings to be happy about for
this novel.
Yeah.
Being in existence.
Hollyn (28:18):
Definitely.
And one of the other things tobe super happy about for this
novel is that the rights aregetting purchased.
Cindy (28:23):
I know.
Yeah.
Very exciting.
Hollyn (28:25):
Congratulations.
Cindy (28:26):
Thank you.
Hollyn (28:26):
And if it ever does become a movie or a screenplay
or a TV show, what changes doyou think there would be?
What do you think would staythe same and what do you think
would be different?
Cindy (28:35):
Um, I mean, hopefully it's in Taipei.
Hollyn (28:39):
Yeah. Fingers crossed.
Cindy (28:40):
Yeah.
And hopefully it's an all-Asiancast.
I'm hoping that those thingsstay the same.
Um, I think like talking to myscript writer Eric, he-- it's
science fiction and fantasy, allof those genres are expensive.
And so just to make.
So I just wonder about budgetand what is doable in this day
(29:04):
and age.
You know, like maybe there'llbe like less kind of flashy
things.
But for me, that doesn'tmatter as much to me as the
point of their fighting forsomething that they believe in
and that it's an all-Asian castand that it's in, you know, set
in the city that I wrote thestory for.
(29:24):
Yeah.
Hollyn (29:25):
That's amazing.
And again, it would be such agood movie or even TV show
because I could when I wasreading it, I thought I can so
vividly see the characters and Ifeel like it's really those
books that translate the best.
Cindy (29:38):
Yeah, I'm very visual.
So yeah.
Hollyn (29:41):
I mean, that translates super well into your writing as
well.
Cindy (29:43):
And Taipei is just a feast for the eyes, for all
the senses.
Hollyn (29:48):
For all the senses, eyes, ears, nose.
Cindy (29:49):
Everything.
Hollyn (29:50):
Especially the mouth.
Cindy (29:51):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Everything.
Everything, yeah.
Hollyn (29:53):
Another reason why I'm obsessed with Want and Ruse,
especially, is because Iactually spend a lot of my
summers in Taipei with my momand my younger brother, and I
get to explore all the nightmarkets and go visit all the
beautiful sites and temples.
And so just seeing anothercharacter and seeing Taipei on
the page, which is somethingwhich I'm very shocked has not
(30:16):
happened more often.
I mean, there was LoveboatTaipei, Abigail Hing Wen's book,
and then there's Want, and thenthat's honestly really it.
That's really what-- that'swhat I've seen.
But it was just so incrediblejust to be able to see such a
beautiful and incredible cityjust on the page and for more
readers to discover, because Ithink more people need to know
about it.
And as we've discussed before,Want and Ruse, a big theme is
(30:40):
environmentalism in a dystopiansociety.
And I wanted to let you knowthat this duology actually
inspired Stories WithoutBorders' second service project,
which is a collaboration with afoster home in Taipei called
Hua Xing Children's Home.
And this, it was actuallyfounded by Chiang Kai-shek's
wife, yeah, and so a lot of thekids they serve, they come from
(31:01):
very difficult backgrounds.
We're gonna be doing a bunchof activities with them, we're
gonna be hanging out with them,we're gonna be teaching them
piano, arts, and basic English.
And we're also gonna be doingan environmentally focused
curriculum, which is what theidea for-- Want
inspired the idea.
(31:49):
Awesome!
Yeah, because one thing that Taiwan does actually pretty well is they really do focus a lot on sorting the trash and recycling, and it's a very clean city. So I feel like it would be really fun to have a conversation with the kids, like "Why do you think this is important? Why do you think Taiwan puts so much emphasis on this?" Honestly, I think just being there for the kids and letting them know, hey, there are people that care about you, there are people that want to spend time with you-- I think that will be really fun.
That's wonderful. That's amazing that you set that up.
Thank you so much. And thank you for making the book that inspired this idea.
Cindy (31:51):
Aw, thank you.
Hollyn (31:51):
Once again, I want to congratulate you on your
upcoming novel.
Cindy (31:55):
Oh, thank you.
Hollyn (31:56):
And I'm so excited to have a new piece of work by you.
And I can't wait to read it.
I know it's still superunder wraps, but could you tell
us a little bit about the novel?
Cindy (32:05):
Um, yeah, it's really under wraps.
I took a long time to write it,three years, which is probably
the longest I've spent on anovel.
And this again is somethingdifferent.
Like I said, I was trying toreturn to the Kingdom of Xia,
which would have been acompanion novel to Serpentine.
Hollyn (32:22):
Right.
Cindy (32:23):
I had a few false starts and I talked to Holly again and
she gave me some ideas.
Then I just thought, oh, maybenot.
Maybe I'll just look intoretelling a Chinese folklore or
something like that and put myspin on it, like I like to do.
But I finally realized thatit's because I kind of outgrew
that world for now.
Like it wasn't calling to me asmuch because there are so many
(32:46):
other voices and stories thatother Asian American authors are
doing.
I didn't feel so compelled thatI needed to represent.
So this story came out of-- itwas like a lightning strike.
And so it is again young adultfantasy, which is what I love.
Coming of age, first love, allof that that I love.
And it's my first non-Chineseinspired.
(33:09):
It starts in London and then itmoves to Mexico City.
Hollyn (33:13):
Oh, awesome!
Cindy (33:14):
Yeah, and then the heroine is Chinese and she is a
contortionist in a magicalcircus.
Hollyn (33:25):
Oh, that's awesome! It sounds like such a fun novel.
Cindy (33:28):
Yeah, it's very fun.
Yeah, I'm very proud of it.
Hollyn (33:31):
I'm really excited to read it, and again,
congratulations.
Cindy (33:34):
Thank you.
Hollyn (33:34):
What are some of your strategies when it comes to
writer's block?
Cindy (33:38):
Oh, yeah, that's always hard.
I feel like taking time awayfrom actually writing.
Hollyn (33:44):
Yeah.
Cindy (33:45):
I-- so this novel that like I said, I'm trying to sell,
it's not-- so nobody waswaiting for it.
It's not a contracted novel.
It wasn't under deadline,everything was on my own.
And that gave me the space todream and to take my time.
It's nice to have a novel undercontract, but then somebody's
kind of like, hey, what's goingon?
(34:06):
Like you just feel like youdon't have as much time to
dream.
And I like to dream and I liketo just think about the story
because I am intuitive.
And I like to just take time tothink because when you're
writing and you're immersed,you're almost always in the back
of your mind thinking about thestory.
Like you're showering, you'rethinking about the story, you're
doing chores, you're thinkingabout the story, you're driving,
(34:26):
you're thinking about thestory.
And so time away helps to kindof you know, just have things
because we'll have-- all authorswill be like, "And then all of
a sudden I knew the answer." Butthat takes time.
And then also, just as a cheat,I will sometimes write
non-chronologically.
Hollyn (34:46):
Oh, yeah.
Cindy (34:46):
So I'll skip it.
So I'll be like, I don't knowwhat's gonna happen between this
and this scene, but I know thatthis scene is gonna happen a
little bit later.
So let me just go ahead andwrite this scene, and then
some-- and it's kind of like ajigsaw puzzle.
And some-- not all of my novelswere written in like linear
form, but this one was, thiscurrent one.
(35:07):
So whatever works for you, youknow.
Yeah.
But time away and then alsoskipping it, so it's not such a
thing, like you're like, oh, Idon't know, I don't know, I
don't know, and then it kind ofbecomes a thing, you know, and
you're-- that you blockyourself.
Hollyn (35:19):
And I feel like a lot of people think that taking time
away is counterproductivebecause it's not- No, if I go
further into the cave, I'll findthe answer.
But yeah, sometimes takingtime.
Cindy (35:26):
And sometimes writing wrong.
Hollyn (35:28):
Right.
Cindy (35:28):
Because you'll write it and you're like, oh, this is
really wrong.
You're like, okay, no,
You just know that it's wrong.
Yeah.
So you sometimes you have towrite wrong to write right.
Yeah.
Hollyn (35:37):
That's a good quote.
I'm gonna steal that.
What is your world buildingprocess?
Because you have thesebeautiful, intricate worlds, so
what is your strategy forcreating worlds that feel real
and detailed?
Cindy (35:51):
Again, I do a lot of research, but as I said, I
hadn't even gone to China by thepoint by when I had written my
debut novel.
So I just had for SilverPhoenix, I had so many books
like reference like giant coffeebooks of China and like just so
I can try and immerse myself.
But for me, my world buildingis very sensory.
(36:12):
So I have adult fantasy, likeKate Elliott is a friend and
also such a good writer,amazing, multiple plot lines,
big cast of characters.
And her world building is like,what is the magic system?
What is the political system?
What religion is dominant?
What is the topography?
(36:32):
What is the geography?
What is grown?
Like she thinks like farming,like she thinks like the whole
world.
Whereas I'm just like in thehead.
That's why young adult tendsto be first person or like very
near third.
So I'm just in their head and Iwant to feel what they feel.
I want to see what they see.
I you know, that's-- my worldbuilding is sensory, and that's
(36:55):
why Taipei was so great.
Because, like you said, everysense, like I know when I land
in Taipei.
Like I I just smell it and Ican feel it, you know, and I
know that like I'm home, youknow.
And so that's how yeah, that'show I write. That's my world
building.
I just try to put you in theirshoes more so than anything
else.
Hollyn (37:14):
Yeah, that feels like a very great strategy, especially
because for a lot of visualwriters, it's really hard to
just be like, oh my gosh, I haveto write, but like I'm so into
the sensory details.
But no, you don't have to, itdoesn't have to be exclusive.
You can just--
Cindy (37:30):
I'm very visceral, yeah.
Hollyn (37:31):
And I mean it sort of works out because I've seen I've
seen writers that are, youknow, very talented, but the
worlds don't-- they feel 2D.
But sometimes being moreimmersed in the senses is just
yeah, it feels 3D.
The author is immersed in thisworld, the senses because they
come alive, because a big partof the world is the senses.
Because if you don't have thesenses, what do you really
(37:53):
have? And as I mentioned in theintroduction, you're the
co-founder of Diversity in YAwith Malinda Lo.
And so why is diversity soimportant to you, especially in
the world of literature and YAliterature specifically?
Cindy (38:06):
Well, we've-- that's kind of like in rest now because
again, something that we startedin 2011.
You know, we I think we carriedit on for a good eight years or
so.
And then I think at that timeit was again very much we didn't
see a lot of representation,especially in young adult, and
middle grade and children'sstories that I feel like you
(38:28):
really should haverepresentation, especially given
how diverse we are in theUnited States, you know, and how
interesting other cultures andother stories and other lens,
you know, P-O-V.
That's it's important.
It's part of us, you know.
So that's what we were kind ofestablishing.
And at that time, there was abig tour going on, like made by
(38:52):
authors themselves.
Because the Diversity in YAtour was just me and Malinda
arranging it.
But a little bit like a year ortwo before that, it was another
book tour, and it was all leadtitle.
It was really all lead titleauthors, and it was very
homogenous.
Let's just say they were goingto all the cities and there was
just not representation.
(39:12):
And so I joked, I'm alwaysjoking.
So I joked with Malinda.
I was like, why don't we justdo a diversity tour by
ourselves?
And so that's exactly what wedid in 2011.
Hollyn (39:22):
That's amazing.
Cindy (39:23):
Yeah, and now it-- we still need it, but it's better.
But it's, you know, it's kindof yeah.
We still we still have work todo, but it's better.
Hollyn (39:31):
What is the most difficult part of writing a
character and developing them?
Cindy (39:35):
I feel like finding the voice and just yeah, just
knowing who they are.
Like I said, a lot of times Idon't know their motivations, I
don't know, you know, whatevertheir hurts and insecurities and
everything until I get to theend of the story.
And so I kind of have to telltheir story to myself first.
Hollyn (39:53):
Yeah.
Cindy (39:53):
Yeah.
It's kind of a get-to-know kindof thing.
Yeah.
Hollyn (39:57):
What is your favorite genre to write in?
Is it fantasy?
Cindy (40:00):
It is fantasy.
It is fantasy.
And even-- I tried contemporaryfor a hot second, and it-- I
tried and I tried, and I waslike, "When do when did the
monsters come?
Like, when does the magichappen?" It's just it's-- and
the contemporary writers arelike, "How do you make all this
weird stuff up?" They're like,"What is this?" They can't
imagine being fantasy writersand yeah, and I--
Hollyn (40:22):
I can't imagine just writing in the real world.
That seems so--
Cindy (40:27):
But contemporary when I read it, I'm like, oh, this is
really good.
Hollyn (40:32):
Same.
Cindy (40:32):
But when do you-- Yeah, so that's just how I am.
Yeah.
Hollyn (40:36):
Yeah.
I mean, I respect thecontemporary writers.
I could never do that.
I always have to include somesort of fantastical element.
Cindy (40:44):
Oh, so you write too?
Hollyn (40:45):
Yeah, I do.
I'm a writer.
Cindy (40:46):
That's awesome!
Hollyn (40:48):
Thank you so much.
In all of your series, foodplays a huge, huge role.
Like, and if to any listenerslistening, do not read Cindy's
books if you're hungry.
Cindy (40:59):
It's true.
Hollyn (40:59):
Eat a dinner, eat a big dinner, and then read Cindy's
books.
And then you'll probably gethungry just reading it.
Was that intentional?
And why was it important foryou to incorporate this?
Cindy (41:10):
It was not intentional.
And so I feel like it'sbecause, like I said, Taiwanese,
we like to eat.
And so it was just obviouslylike, you know, Western fantasy
is like, here's stew.
Hollyn (41:22):
Oh my gosh.
Cindy (41:23):
And a hunk of bread and a slice of cheese or whatever it
is that they eat.
And I'm like, well, I'm gonnawrite my fantasy, and they're
gonna have noodles and you know,dumplings.
And why wouldn't, and so it'spart of world, like I said, it's
sensory and it's part ofworld-building, the rituals
and the cultures that areassociated with food, right?
And so that just seemednatural.
(41:44):
And I didn't realize untilbecause it was one of the first
Asian fantasies in young adultthat I was getting angry tweets
at midnight going, you know,"Cindy Pon, I'm so hungry, and
it can't just be a toast, it hasto be dumplings!" It was so
funny.
So I'm like, maybe I need toput like a little warning label
onto it, like, don't, you know,read it when you're hungry.
(42:06):
Do not read when hungry.
Cereal's not gonna work.
Hollyn (42:08):
What do you hope your audience takes away from all of
your work?
Cindy (42:12):
I feel like I'm hopeful.
That's just how I am.
So I say Want is dystopian, butit's not really dystopian.
I like to leave you with like asense of hope that you can do
something.
I want to leave readers with alove for story.
Hollyn (42:32):
Yeah.
Cindy (42:33):
And just hope like that they can, if there's a
challenge, that they can mayberise to the challenge.
That's what I like to leavereaders with.
Hollyn (42:41):
That's really beautiful.
Cindy (42:42):
Thank you.
Hollyn (42:44):
And now we're gonna go into the more fun section of the
podcast, the lightning roundquestions.
So basically the format forthese is quick question, quick
answer.
Cindy (42:54):
Okay, no wrong answer.
Hollyn (42:55):
No wrong answer at all.
Cindy (42:57):
All right.
Hollyn (42:58):
They're silly questions, they're not like what is the
meaning of life?
Cindy (43:03):
Okay, lightning round.
Yes.
Hollyn (43:04):
Okay, three, two, one.
What is your go-to karaokesong?
Cindy (43:08):
Oh my gosh.
Probably something by Madonna.
Hollyn (43:11):
Oh, obviously.
Madonna's great.
Cindy (43:14):
Yeah.
I think for me, I feel like mygo-to karaoke song is right now
anything Chappell Roan, justbecause.
Oh, I love her.
And that's what I playedcoming.
I wish I saw her in concert.
Hollyn (43:24):
My gosh, me too.
Cindy (43:25):
She's too popular now.
She's probably taking a break,but yeah, next time her tickets
are gonna get so hard to try andget tickets for.
What movie could you watch overand over again?
Um, I love-- probably The Princess Bride.
Hollyn (43:40):
Ooh, Princess Bride's a good one.
Cindy (43:43):
That's a to watch again.
Yeah.
It's so old.
Hollyn (43:46):
Yeah.
How old is it, 20 years?
Cindy (43:49):
Oh my gosh, more than--
Hollyn (43:51):
50?
Cindy (43:52):
Probably going on 40.
Yeah, definitely 30.
Yeah.
Hollyn (43:56):
Yeah.
I mean, that makes sense.
Cindy (43:58):
And that's fantasy.
You know, and it's fun.
It has monsters and it's justsweet.
So yeah.
It's funny.
Yeah.
Hollyn (44:06):
I think for me, I-- my parents and I always used to
joke that I would I could watchHome Alone over and over.
Cindy (44:15):
Is that your comfort show?
Hollyn (44:17):
Kind of.
I mean, right now I'm taking alittle bit of a break because I
have seen it so much that I canrecite certain parts of the
movie by memory.
Cindy (44:25):
And Macaulay's a grown man.
That's how long it's been.
Hollyn (44:29):
Yeah.
And I think also right now I'mgetting into the-- a stupid, a
lot of stupid movies.
So like UHF by Weird Al.
I could watch that movieover and over again.
Cindy (44:40):
So you want to just like relax.
Hollyn (44:42):
I like to relax, yeah.
Cindy (44:42):
And just be brain less.
Hollyn (44:43):
Yeah.
Cindy (44:44):
And just like, ah, yeah.
Hollyn (44:45):
For me, the books is where I really stimulate the
intellect.
Cindy (44:47):
I totally understand that.
Hollyn (44:48):
Um, but the movies are just, oh ha ha, just two guys in
a top hat making weird soundslike...
Cindy (44:53):
Oh, that's funny.
H (44:53):
Do you prefer coffee or tea?
Cindy (44:53):
Coffee.
100%.
Hollyn (45:02):
I don't know.
Where's matcha?
Matcha is a tea.
Yeah, but I feel like it's in between.
It's like that liminal space.
Cindy (45:08):
No.
Hollyn (45:10):
No.
Cindy (45:12):
No. It's tea.
It's tea.
I like matcha, so I guess-- Iguess tea?
I guess I can go with tea.
Yeah.
Hollyn (45:19):
What was your dream job as a kid?
Cindy (45:22):
Oh wow.
Um, I think writer and alsoteacher because I like to write
on the board.
But that was when there waschalk.
Now it's just Expo markers.
So now I definitely don't wantto be a teacher because there's
no, like, I loved writingbecause I would watch my
teachers write with and then I'dbe like you erase.
And I was like, wow, that's socool.
(45:42):
And now there's no, there's nojoy.
There's no chalk boards.
Hollyn (45:49):
I think for a long time I wanted to be an author, but
there was also a phase in mylife where I wanted to be a
marine biologist specifically.
Cindy (45:56):
Yeah.
Hollyn (45:57):
I had no
Cindy (45:58):
Come to UCSD, go to Scripps.
Hollyn (46:00):
Yeah.
Cindy (46:00):
Yeah, for sure.
Hollyn (46:01):
I'll check it out.
Cindy (46:03):
And you can be an author no matter what you're doing.
That's the good thing aboutbeing an author.
Hollyn (46:07):
It's like marine biologist by day, author by
night.
Cindy (46:11):
100%.
Hollyn (46:12):
Are you more of a morning person or a night owl?
Cindy (46:14):
Oh my gosh.
I'm a night owl.
100%.
Yeah, I'm usually up till two.
So yeah, I don't like to get upbefore 10.
Hollyn (46:22):
That's fair.
I'm the complete opposite.
I like being in bed by 9 30.
Cindy (46:27):
Oh my gosh.
Hollyn (46:28):
And I like waking up at 6 30.
Cindy (46:30):
Oh my gosh.
That's wild.
Yeah, I had to get up early formy kids, and now they're both
grown up enough that I don'thave to wake up anymore.
So I can go back to my nightowl ways.
Hollyn (46:40):
Yes.
Yeah.
Do you like your-- and samevein, do you like your
mattresses firm or soft?
Cindy (46:46):
I think I like firm, but with a little padding.
Hollyn (46:49):
Yeah.
Cindy (46:49):
Firm with padding.
Yeah.
Not squidgy.
Squidgy.
I don't want to sink into it.
I like it to be--
Hollyn (46:56):
Agreed.
I think I like firm but with alittle bit of softness as well.
Cindy (46:59):
Yes, exactly.
Hollyn (47:00):
It's not like I'm-- why am I on a plank of wood?
Cindy (47:02):
They'll put like a little plushy pad, but then the actual
mattress itself is supportive.
Hollyn (47:07):
Yeah.
But I like my pillow soft andthen my mattress slightly
firmer.
That's me.
Cindy (47:12):
Okay.
Hollyn (47:14):
If there was a spider in your house, would you kill it
or set it free?
Cindy (47:18):
Um, I was setting it free for a long time until I got bit
by a spider at home and I gotstaph or something, like it
swelled up to like the size of atennis ball.
Hollyn (47:30):
Oh my god.
Cindy (47:30):
And then so then I was like, maybe I shouldn't save the
spiders.
But it it depends becausethere's a daddy long legs.
Hollyn (47:36):
Right, the daddy long legs.
Cindy (47:37):
So it depends.
If they're like kind of big andburly and I can see them from
across the room, then I'm like,mm.
But then I also heard that ifyou put them out, that they die.
Hollyn (47:46):
Yeah, apparently spiders are super territorial.
Cindy (47:49):
Yeah, so I don't know.
So I don't know if I'm doingthem any favors.
It might be like you're liketaking them and you're like
throwing them into Africa orsomething.
Like you're like in Californiaand then you're you toss them
and they're like, What'shappening?
Like maybe they're just likeso...
But then after I got bit, I waslike, uh, maybe not.
Hollyn (48:05):
I mean, I usually just say, Oh, well, maybe they'll
kill the other spider.
Cindy (48:09):
Yeah.
It depends on how scary theylook.
Daddy long legs are not super--Like if they're tiny little
ones, then yeah.
Hollyn (48:15):
Also apparently, even though daddy long legs are like
the most poisonous spider, theycan't actually bite you.
Cindy (48:20):
I didn't know that.
Hollyn (48:20):
Yeah, but their teeth are-- they can't penetrate human
skin.
So you're okay.
Cindy (48:24):
Oh, okay.
Hollyn (48:24):
I usually set them free.
I'm just like, "Fend foryourself, my little gladiator!"
Cindy (48:30):
You do the whole cup thing.
Hollyn (48:31):
Yeah, I do the whole cup thing with the slice of-- the
piece of paper.
And then I'll even go to theeffort of going to the kitchen
and getting it, and then when Icome back, the spider's gone.
Cindy (48:39):
And you're like, where'd you go?
Hollyn (48:40):
And I'm just like, you can have my house now, it's
yours.
What was your last Halloweencostume?
Cindy (48:46):
Oh my gosh.
I can't think of the lastHalloween costume I had on, but
I did dress up as Chun Li forComic Con.
Hollyn (48:52):
Oh my gosh, that's awesome.
Cindy (48:53):
Do you know Chun Li?
Hollyn (48:54):
Chun Li, yeah.
Cindy (48:55):
Okay, yeah, yeah.
From Street Fighter.
Hollyn (48:57):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I didn't know the video gameshe came from, but I knew the
character.
Cindy (49:01):
Okay.
Hollyn (49:01):
I think my last Halloween costume was Little Red
Riding Hood, but she killed thewolf.
So it's like I put wolf fur onthe cape.
Oh, I think.
And then I had like a hatchet--
Cindy (49:11):
Oh, wow.
Hollyn (49:12):
--that I painted blood on.
Um
Cindy (49:14):
So badass Little Red Riding Hood. I like it.
Yeah, badass Little Red Riding Hood. That'sthe way I sold the costume,
I was like, yeah, I'm Little RedRiding Hood, but badass.
That's awesome.
Hollyn (49:21):
Thank you so much.
And what is a skill that youwould really want to have?
Cindy (49:26):
A skill...
to not get lost?
Hollyn (49:30):
Oh. That is so fair.
I'm so directionally challenged. Butnow we, I mean, you don't
understand.
We didn't have the phones.
Right, right.
Cindy (49:39):
I literally drove on the five the wrong way for like I
don't know how long, like when Iwas your age.
Like I got on the freeway and Iwent the wrong way for like who
knows how long.
And then I was like, oh, wheream I?
So yeah, now we do have like atleast we have GPS and stuff,
but--
Hollyn (49:55):
Thank God.
Cindy (49:56):
I was so lost.
I don't know which and yeah,and so interestingly enough, it
comes across in my fantasynovels.
Like one of my editors waslike, Would you like a map?
And I was like, a map for what?
I have no idea where my heroineis.
I go right, I go left.
Hollyn (50:15):
Backwards, forwards.
Cindy (50:15):
There's a blob of a land, like that's why, that's why my
you know, world building doesn'textend to like mountain ranges
and she just kind of wandersaround lost like I do in real
life.
So yeah, it comes across in myfantasy stories.
Hollyn (50:32):
I think for me, a skill that I would really like to have
is dancing.
Like I see all the K-pop.
Cindy (50:37):
For the TikToks?
Hollyn (50:38):
No, no, no, no, not the TikToks.
I mean, like, I don't want todo that.
Cindy (50:41):
Yeah, yeah, the K-pop because they do so much of the
group dancing.
Hollyn (50:44):
Yeah, I feel like that'd be really fun to do.
Also, hip hop would be supercool.
And also just imagine justbreak dancing.
Cindy (50:50):
Oh, I can not dance either.
Hollyn (50:52):
I would love to just do that.
I don't know.
My limbs just-- they don'tcooperate with me when I try to
dance.
Cindy (50:57):
I'm very uncoordinated.
I can't even do aerobics.
So yeah.
Hollyn (51:02):
What is your favorite word?
Cindy (51:04):
I don't know.
I like funny words, funny longwords, like you know, like
bamboozle or befuddled orgobsmacked or flabbergasted,
long words like that.
Hollyn (51:16):
I think I do too.
I love bamboozled.
And I also really like the wordasinine.
It sounds like you're saying abad word, but it's the noun,
it's not--
Cindy (51:28):
You're getting away with it.
Hollyn (51:29):
Yeah, it is because it means foolish or stupid, but
it's not like, oh, you're suchan asinine.
It's that was such an asininething to do.
It's more of an adjective todescribe something.
Cindy (51:38):
That is a good word.
Hollyn (51:39):
Yeah, yeah.
That's mine.
And then now the last question: what advice would you give to (51:41):
undefined
your younger self?
Cindy (51:46):
Um, I think just I think keep going.
Yeah, that's it.
Like enjoy the journey, keepgoing.
And that's what I've alwaysbeen trying to do.
Hollyn (51:55):
That's awesome.
That's such I feel like that'sgreat advice.
I think it's so simple, butit's so easy to forget, too.
Cindy (52:00):
Yeah.
Hollyn (52:00):
So before we wrap up, I wanted to ask if there's a
specific organization or causethat's near and dear to your
heart.
Cindy (52:07):
That's a great question.
And so, We Need Diverse Books,definitely is still going
strong, and that kind of came--they kind of, yeah, they
arrived on the scene, and that'swhy Diversity in YA we're like,
oh man, you guys are doinggreat work, and it's huge.
Like they do so many, they dointernships for people to be in
publishing to trying-- it's notjust about publishing and having
(52:27):
more diversity, but you need adiverse background in all of the
people that are choosing thebooks, right?
Editors, booksellers,librarians, all of that.
So they do so much grants, theydo-- so that I would say, and
they run fundraisers at leastonce a year.
So it's incredible, incrediblework.
Yeah.
Hollyn (52:45):
Well, everybody go check out We Need Diverse Books.
It sounds like an incredibleorganization.
Thank you so much for comingonto this podcast, Cindy.
I had a blast.
Cindy (52:54):
Yes, we laughed a lot.
Hollyn (52:56):
Yes.
Cindy (52:56):
Awesome.
Thank you for having me,Hollyn.
I can't wait to see this.
Hollyn (52:59):
Yes! Thanks for listening to Stories Without
Borders the podcast.
Please rate and review the showon your favorite podcast
platform.
You can learn more online atstorieswithout borders.org or
follow us on Instagram atstories underscore without
borders.
And if you like watching yourpodcasts, subscribe to our
YouTube channel at Storiesunderscore without borders.
(53:22):
Stories Without Borders, thepodcast, is written, hosted, and
produced by me, Hollyn Alpert.
I also wrote and performed thetheme music.
Danuta Amato is our soundengineer, audio editor, and
videographer.
Kennedy Hibbert is our videoeditor.
Thanks to Liberty Yanaga andLangston Williams for production
support.
See you all next time.
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