A revolution uproots a family. A kid grows up between languages and continents. Years later, a studio note says, “cut all the gay characters,” and a writer decides he’s done waiting for permission. Our talk with Abdi Nazemian is a global tour—from Tehran to Paris, Toronto, New York, and LA—and an illustration of how storytelling can hold all those lives in one place.
Abdi talks about how reading scripts in Hollywood taught him structure, even as the system kept pushing his stories out. Self-publishing The Walk-In Closet changed that, giving him a way to tell stories no one else would greenlight. We get into how YA fiction became a space for honesty and detail—like Like a Love Story, which captures AIDS-era New York with both the rage of ACT UP and the hope of the dance floor. The Chandler Legacies looks at the damage and the power of institutions, asking if the same places that hurt us can also help us grow. Only This Beautiful Moment zooms out to three generations of an Iranian family, showing how queerness, exile, denial, and love all mix together when you stop looking for easy villains.
Then there’s Desert Echoes, where young love runs into grief and addiction in the California desert. Music runs through it all—Madonna, Kate Bush, Tori Amos, Lana Del Rey—not as background noise but as a shared language that connects people who feel alone. Abdi reminds us that nuance matters more than purity, that messy conversations with family are worth having, and that history—like the 1953 coup in Iran—still shapes the choices we make now.
In the end, his message is simple but powerful: joy and sorrow always coexist, and stories help us hold both.
If this moves you, share it with a friend, follow the show, and leave a review. The more we talk about complex stories, the more space we make for them.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Hollyn (00:00):
Hey listeners, quick update on today's guest, Abdi
Nazemian.
Abdi has a fantastic new bookout called Exquisite Things,
which was still under wraps whenwe recorded the episode, but is
now available wherever you buybooks.
So please pick up a copy andkeep listening for my
conversation with Abdi.
Welcome to Stories WithoutBorders the Podcast.
(00:22):
I'm your host Hollyn.
Here we interview people who use the power of stories and service to promote connection, empathy and understanding around the world. You can learn more online at StorieWithoutBorders.orgor follow us on
Instagram and YouTube at Stories underscore WithoutBorders. Thanks for listening, here's today's episode.
Today we are speaking with award-winning author, screenwriter and producer, Abdi Nazemian. Abdi has written for a number of TV shows including Ordinary Joe and The Village. He has written films including The Artist's Wife, Menendez (01:03):
Blood Brothers, and The Quiet. Abdi's first novel, The Walk-in Closet, was awarded Best Debut at the Lambda Literary Awards. He has since written five YA
novels, The Authentics, Like aLove Story, Only This Beautiful
Moment, The Chandler Legaciesand Desert Echoes.
Like a Love Story won StonewallHonor and was chosen by Time
Magazine as one of the 100 bestyoung adult books of all time.
Only This Beautiful Moment haswon a number of awards,
including the Stonewall Award,the Lambda Literary Award, and
(01:25):
the Amy Mathers Award from theCanadian Children's Book Center.
As Head of Development forWaters End Productions.
Abdi has been an executiveproducer or associate producer
on numerous films, includingCall Me By Your Name, The House
of Tomorrow and Little Woods.
So yay, welcome, Abdi!
Abdi (01:42):
Thank you for having me.
Hollyn (01:43):
Thank you so much for coming, it's such an honor.
I'm a big fan of all of yourbooks.
So I'm so excited to introduceyou to our audience.
One thing I really love aboutyour work is that you're a very
personal writer.
You incorporate a lot of yourown experiences.
And one of the things that hasstood out is that you mentioned
that you live in a lot ofdifferent places and how you
incorporate that into a lot ofyour stories.
(02:05):
And could you start byexplaining and giving us a brief
snapshot of your own personalstory, including how and when
you decide to be a writer?
Abdi (02:15):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, I'll give the as shorta version as I can and feel free
to ask follow-ups if there'spieces that I skip over too
fast.
But I was born in Iran, whichis an incredibly important part
of my identity that I writeabout often.
But when I was two years old,there was a revolution in Iran.
And my parents left and we wentto France.
Um, we spent five years inParis.
(02:36):
And when I was seven, we allmoved to Toronto and we became
Canadian citizens.
But we only stayed there forthree years.
Um, kind of crucially for me,at least, when we lived in
Toronto, we were living with intwo kind of side-by-side
buildings in the middle of thecity with a lot of my cousins
and aunts and uncles.
So it was a very happy time forme because I felt so culturally
displaced a lot of mychildhood.
(02:57):
But then when I was 10, wemoved to the suburbs of New
York, just my immediate family.
And that was much harder.
Um, that was like probably thefirst time I felt because I was
no longer with my cousins.
Hollyn (03:09):
Right.
Abdi (03:09):
I felt like a real sense of isolation and culture shock.
Up until that point, I'd alsoonly been in cities.
So the suburbs felt veryforeign.
It was very...it was myintroduction to America, and I
didn't fit in.
I mean, I've written about thisin a lot of my books, but um,
and then when I was 14, I wassent away to boarding school to
a school called Choate RosemaryHall in Connecticut, which is
(03:31):
very much the inspiration forthe Chandler Legacies.
Um, and that was probably whenI started to understand that
creativity was something Iloved.
I didn't, I never, you know,like many immigrant kids of my
generation, a career in the artswas not something that seemed
like an option.
So I didn't think that was whatI would do.
But in boarding school, Idiscovered my love for acting
(03:52):
and improv and theater.
And I was the first student atour boarding school to direct a
sh full show.
Hollyn (03:58):
So were you more like a theater kid or were you more
like in tech?
Abdi (04:02):
Theater kid, I would say.
Um, but also just a creativekid.
I loved writing.
I had an English teacher whowas a big, big figure in my
life.
He really gave me an example oflike what it could be to be an
adult that was different fromthe ones I saw.
He was the first person I cameout to.
Um, so I started to get exposedand then went to college in New
York City, did a lot ofinternships in film and media,
(04:27):
and I was told by my last bossto move to LA, just get get a
one-way ticket if you want towork in the entertainment
industry, which I did.
I love, I grew up, I should sayalso those years in the
suburbs, I became obsessed withlike movies, old Hollywood
movies, books, music.
I was because I didn't have alot of friends, I just immersed
myself in fictional worlds.
Hollyn (04:46):
Yeah, I feel like that's the case with a lot of people
that are like, I need to escapethis world that I'm in.
Abdi (04:50):
You need to escape.
And so fiction and anyfictional world, be it through a
book, a film, a musician,whatever it gives you, it
empowers you by making you feellike there's somewhere in the
world you might belong thatisn't where you're from.
And um, so when I came to LA, Idid what everybody does, and I
just got assistant jobs, and fortwo years, I had two different
bosses.
And other than answeringphones, my biggest job was
(05:12):
reading scripts.
So it was after two years ofreading scripts, and you don't
just have to read the script,you have to provide what's
called coverage for your boss,which is a summary of the script
plus a recommendation ofwhether they should read it or
not, because your bosses neverhave time to read these hundreds
of scripts.
And so, in doing so, it'salmost like going to grad school
for screenwriting where you'relike, Well, why does this script
(05:32):
work or not work?
And how do I communicate thatto my boss?
And after two years of that, Iwas like, wait a minute, like,
why shouldn't I be a writer?
Like these people, all thepeople submitting scripts are
getting paid to write.
And I feel like I love towrite, and I'm not making as
much as them answering phones.
And so that's when I called afriend of mine who was getting
an MFA in playwriting and said,Do you want to write a
(05:53):
screenplay together?
And we did, and that started.
I'll stop there because thatlike was the beginning of my
writing career, which startedonly with film and TV.
Hollyn (06:02):
So your first novel, The Walk-in Closet, is
self-published?
Abdi (06:06):
It is self-published, yeah.
Hollyn (06:08):
Um, and it's about the Persian community in Los
Angeles, and it was written foradults.
And then you sort of pivoted tomore YA stuff with The
Authentics.
Uh, can you explain thatprocess and why you decide to
switch genres?
Abdi (06:24):
Yeah, I mean, so The Walk in Closet was a novel I wrote
largely out of a frustration Ifelt in my first decade of
writing in Hollywood, which wasI couldn't get anything about
Iranian people made or queerpeople.
And it was a very differenttime.
Like sometimes I'll tell youngpeople things that I heard back
then and they don't believe it.
But like the very first scriptI wrote for a studio, the first
(06:45):
set of notes came back, and oneof the bullet points was "cut
all gay characters." And thatwas just a it wasn't even
something we flinched at.
Just cut all the gaycharacters.
I mean, that was what we weretold to do.
It was, but it was very, veryclear all along the way that
telling my personal storiesgiven the background I had would
(07:06):
be very hard.
Hollyn (07:06):
Right.
Abdi (07:07):
And after about 10 years, I realized I had written a lot
of personal scripts, they justnever got made.
And I'm like, I have to getsomething out there in the
world.
So I wrote The Walk-in Closetlargely out of like a deep
desire to just put something onthe page about my cultural
community.
Um, it was also, I should say,the first novel to ever have a
truly gay male Iraniancharacter.
(07:29):
That's right.
And it came out in 2014.
So that just tells you how rareit was.
Well, you know
Hollyn (07:34):
And 2014 isn't even that long ago, is it?
Abdi (07:36):
It's not that long ago.
But it's also, you know, in ourcommunity, people weren't
coming out in the same way.
There were, of course, queerpeople, but it wasn't, we
weren't identifying as openlyqueer in the same way as Western
counterparts of ours.
So that book was rejectedeverywhere.
I mean, my-- I got literaryagents, they sent it to every
publishing.
And back then there were morepublishers, but everyone
(07:57):
rejected it.
And I gave up.
I was kind of like, well, it'snot worthy of being published.
And a couple years later, I hadkids and I went to business
school.
So I had a little bit of amid-career moment where I
thought maybe I would stopwriting.
Because it is for anyonelistening who wants to be a
writer, you have to understandthat there's no consistency.
(08:19):
You can have a great successfollowed by the worst failures
of your life.
You can work a lot one year andmake a lot of money and not
make any.
So there was a point when I hadmy kids where I'm like, should
I pivot into something morestable?
Um, but it was ironicallybusiness school that got me back
into writing, but in a muchmore fruitful way.
And one of the things was thatI started to realize like I
(08:43):
believed in The Walk-in Closetas a book.
And yes, it had been rejectedeverywhere, but I was studying
business.
I was studying entrepreneurswho believed in themselves.
So I'm like, well, I believe inmyself, so I'll self-publish
it.
And my agency at the time had alot of infrastructure to help
me.
So I mean, yes, Iself-published it, but they had
relationships with coverdesigners and editors and
distributors, and they helped mea lot.
(09:04):
And the book ended up winningthe Lambda Literary Award, which
is a pretty prestigious awardin the Bell GBT space, and
nobody expected it.
Nobody expected it.
Hollyn (09:14):
Including yourself.
Abdi (09:16):
Including myself.
I went to the I flew to NewYork for the Lambda Literary
Awards.
And my agent at the time, he'snot my agent anymore, but I love
him.
He remains a very good friend.
I always, always laugh aboutthis story with him.
But he met me and my husbandfor drinks before the awards,
and he was like, he was like, ifyou were gonna win, they would
have told me.
So just go have fun.
You're not gonna win.
I'm not gonna go because I wehad a drink now.
(09:38):
And and then I won.
And I texted him, and I'm like,ah, you weren't there, and I
won.
But um, but he he was the onewho then said to me, You should
keep writing books.
This one obviously did a lotbetter than any of us expected,
but you should pick a genre or alane that is a little more
commercial so we can try to sellyour book.
And so I was thinking, youknow, he gave me a list, and the
(09:59):
list was things like you know,you can imagine it's like
thrillers or horror or rom-comor you know, romance, all that
stuff.
But YA was on the list.
And kind of simultaneous tothis, my cousin Vita is a school
teacher.
She's amazing.
I love her.
She was very much like immersedin YA literature before I was
because when I was young, YAwasn't a thing.
(10:20):
And she was sending me books.
So she, you know, through her,I discovered what was happening
in YA.
So I was reading books like UmAristotle and Dante Discover the
Secrets of the Universe, orSimon versus the Homo sapiens,
like a lot of the early queer YAbooks, and they were very like
Aristotle and Dante, especiallyis so culturally specific.
Um, and it was such a bigsuccess.
(10:41):
And so I'm like, wait, there'sa world where people actually
want these small, culturallyspecific, queer stories.
Like, that's what I want to do.
Yeah.
And that that was really whatconvinced me to try YA.
It felt like a world that Icould hopefully write that also
wanted the stories that I tell.
And that's always a very hardthing as a writer, is like
(11:03):
there's a kind of story I know Iwant to tell.
And often I'm picking, like, Ididn't think I could write
books.
Books were way above what Ithought I could do.
I mean, I had to take the TOEFLto get into college.
English was not my firstlanguage.
You know, I writing prose feltway above me.
But I'm like, okay, this is aworld where people seem to want
the stories I have to tell themto learn how to write within
(11:25):
this world.
Hollyn (11:26):
You're a very, very poetic writer.
I mean, at least in my opinion,because you have such vivid
imagery and like metaphors.
I'm like, oh wow, I neverthought of it that way.
Abdi (11:36):
But some, you know, some of that might come from the fact
that I speak, so I speak fivelanguages.
Right.
Um, I love languages.
And in some ways, maybe thepoetry comes from the fact that
the Persian language is verypoetic, and we do speak in
different ways, and that mightcolor the way I write in
English, because I don'tnecessarily communicate in
(11:56):
English the way someone does whowas born and raised here.
I still speak Persian with myparents and my cousins all the
time.
I grew up in France and went toFrench school in Canada.
So French is very ingrained inme.
We speak Spanish in our home alot.
Like, so I feel like there'sdifferent ways, kind of in the
same way that like there'smusicians, you know, like ABBA
being the most obvious fromSweden, but there's so many
(12:17):
foreign musicians who write inEnglish and they're so good at
writing lyrics that feel alittle odd.
And I think part of it isbecause English is not their
first language.
Hollyn (12:28):
I've heard you speak a lot about Like a Love Story,
your third novel and second YAnovel, um, and how it was a
turning point for you as awriter.
Um, the book itself is aboutthree teens in 1989, New York
City, um, that navigate love andloss during the AIDS epidemic.
Um, it won several awards andhonors and has also been banned
(12:48):
in certain places.
So I'm wondering why is itimportant for you to tell this
specific story?
Abdi (12:53):
Wow.
Um, yeah, I mean, so Like aLove Story for me is a big
turning point.
I think part of that is becauseit was the first book where I
felt like I was really writingabout my own personal emotional
journeys.
I mean, in The Walk-in Closetand The Authentics, I was
writing about Iranian culture,but I was always writing about
it from the perspective of acharacter who was very different
(13:15):
than me.
I mean, in both books, theprotagonist whose voice you hear
the book through is a femalecharacter.
I was never really plumbing thedepths of my own emotional
journey.
And the way Like a Love Storycame about is that I had The
Authentics had come out.
I had a great editor andpublisher, and they wanted to do
a follow-up book with me.
And they asked me to pitch somestories.
(13:37):
And after a decade inHollywood, I was thinking of
pitches as like what a Hollywoodpitch is like.
Think of a great log line and abig concept.
And so I kept pitching themthese big concept ideas, and
they kept rejecting them.
And then finally I had lunchwith my editor, and she was
like, I want you to write thebook that you want to write,
like the book that's from yourheart, and what is that?
(13:57):
And for many, many years I hadwanted to write a version of
Like a Love Story.
I didn't know what the plotwould be, but I said to her, I'm
like, the only thing that I'vealways wanted to write that I
feel like I couldn't because ofthe the boundaries in Hollywood
was a book about what it feltlike for me moving as an
immigrant kid to New York duringthe worst years of the AIDS
crisis, knowing inside it wasthe first years where I could
(14:19):
feel inside that I was gay, butI didn't even have a word for
it, but I could tell I wasdifferent and attracted to men.
And I came into the city thatwas kind of the center of the
crisis, and all the informationthat was available to me was
about the stigma, the shame, thefear, you know, equating
gayness with death.
And I'm like in my brain, I'mthinking like she's just gonna
(14:42):
be like, You are absolutely outof your mind.
You cannot write that book,especially as a YA book.
And she was like, That's what Iwant you to write.
And I'm like, What?
You know, and that to me,again, like this to me is the
magic of YA.
It's it's a world where editorsand readers are demanding the
most personal stories.
I couldn't believe they wantedthis book.
And I went in, I don't plot outmy book, so I did a lot of, I
(15:04):
went into a deep research mode.
I knew that I wanted to write alot about Act Up.
And so Act Up is anorganization that I grew up
reading about, that I feel verygrateful for.
So I did a lot of research.
I immersed myself back in themusic of the time.
I really put myself for aperiod back in the shoes of my
own childhood self, like takingin in the 80s and 90s.
(15:27):
And and then I took a trip toLondon, which is my favorite
writing city, and I started towrite with no outline, no ideas
of who would the characterswould be or what would happen.
And, you know, Reza came first.
Judy was actually a character Ihad written for one of the
rejected books that neverhappened.
She was a character that I waswriting in a contemporary novel,
and I'd written like a chapteror two, and I loved her.
(15:49):
And I was like, you know what?
I'm gonna take her voicebecause I feel like she'd be
really fun with Reza.
And then Art came from that,and Uncle, so all the characters
flowed.
It was the it was the firsttime, and part of the reason I
think it's why it was a bigturning point.
Number one is because it wasthe first time I wrote genuinely
for my own emotionalexperience.
The second is it was the firsttime I had what I think all
(16:09):
artists want, which is anexperience where you really feel
like the book is writing itselfand you're just a bystander.
You almost like I have memoriesof like just writing and not
even knowing what was happening.
I'm like, all this stuff iscoming, and I'm just like
typing, and it feels like it'scoming from some higher source.
And it was so powerful.
(16:30):
And, you know, I mean, why thebooks resonated, I can't believe
I thought I was writing themost niche book that would, you
know, please me and that nobodywould read.
But I now understand, havinghad that book out for God, I
don't know how many, I thinkit's been out about five years,
that book.
Um, and it's traveled a lot ofthe world.
It's very successful in Brazil,especially, which is a country
(16:51):
that's become very close to myheart because of that.
Um, but I think I realized thatthe the reason I wanted to tell
that story was because I feltlike that story hadn't been
told.
There were, there were a lot ofstories about the generation
that was on the front lines ofthe AIDS crisis.
So, you know, obviously theyget the majority of the
attention as they should,because they're the generation
(17:13):
that lost their whole communityand that fought back and that
did everything to keep mygeneration safe.
And then there's been a lot ofqueer representation about the
generation after mine, which isthe generation that came of age
when AIDS started to becometreatable and less scary and
they were living a more open,queer life.
But I realized there was thisreal gap in storytelling about
(17:34):
my generation.
Like we were the generationthat was coming into our teen
years, realizing our sexualitywhen AIDS was at its worst.
So we were the ones who weregetting all the messaging of
fear and stigma when we werevery young.
And it left such a huge impact.
And I think it made us made itvery hard to be vulnerable and
intimate because we all themessaging worked.
(17:57):
We were afraid and we wereafraid of intimacy.
We equated intimacy with death.
We didn't we all thought wewould die.
I mean, really, like all myfriends of my generation, we
always talk about this.
Like none of us imagined a lifepast 40.
We just grew up thinking to begay meant you died young.
That's and and what I realizedsince writing Like a Love Story
(18:17):
is a lot of people needed thisstory.
A lot of people felt like theirexperience of those years had
never been told.
And then you add the layer ofbeing Iranian and an immigrant,
like so many stories that I grewup with about that era of queer
life was so white.
I mean, it really focused onwhite Western lives, and there
never was anything that dealtwith that intersection.
(18:38):
I feel like I wanted to, youknow, that book has three
narrators who alternates Reza,who's Iranian, um, Judy, who's
white, and has an uncle who'sliving with AIDS and a picked-up
activist, and then Art, who'slike his school's only out gay
teen, but he also gets to bethat because he comes from a
very wealthy white Manhattanfamily, and even though his
(19:01):
family is not supportive, he'sgot like the the privilege of
being able to speak his mind ina way that Reza, as an Iranian,
doesn't.
I think a lot of people don'tunderstand necessarily the
psychology of being an outsiderand how it makes you unable to
shake, you don't, you don't evenunderstand the system.
How are you gonna shake it up?
You're just kind of like, whoam I in this system?
(19:21):
Which is how I often felt whenI was young.
Um, so it was for me, it wasjust it's a very it's a sad
book, but it's also a joyfulbook.
Like I wrote, I cried a lotwhen I wrote it, but I also
laughed a lot and I filled it.
The big surprise of writing thebook for me was that I knew it
would be sad.
How could it not be when it'sabout the AIDS crisis?
(19:42):
What I wasn't prepared for ishow full it would be of like
music and fashion and friendshipand dancing.
And so much of my research, Iwould talk to ACTUP members and
they would tell me, like, yes,we were devastated, we were
losing our community, we werefighting all day, but then we
were dancing all night, we wereflirting, we were laughing.
Like those things coexist.
And I also want young readerswho are going through their own
(20:03):
difficult times right now.
I mean, you guys and your thisgeneration has gone through so
much already between COVID andclimate and fascism and God
knows what else is to come.
But just to remind youngpeople, we have grown up in
times of great crisis before,and we still found ways to
celebrate, dance, have fun,laugh, and that that's okay.
You're not a bad person forhaving a good time when
(20:27):
suffering is happening.
That's just the humanexperience.
And yeah, it's a really specialbook for me, and I'm so happy
that it resonated for others andreally opened the door for
every book that came after.
Because if it weren't, if thatbook hadn't been as well
received, I don't know if Iwould have dug as deep since
then.
I feel like every book I'vewritten is in some way ripping
(20:49):
out from my experience and mycore in a different way.
I'm not just telling storiesbased on plot.
I'm like excavating storiesbased on personal.
Hollyn (20:57):
What lore do I have that I can--
Abdi (21:00):
Absolutely. I always now I begin my books.
I don't begin with I never,like I said, I don't plot out my
books, but I do begin with likea big question or piece of my
life that I'm like, this issomething I've yet to completely
make sense of or a question ofterms with.
Exactly.
Yes.
Is that sort of how you feelabout like The Chandler
(21:22):
Legacies?
Yes.
I mean, Chandler, I went toboarding school in the 90s,
which was, in my opinion, re areally good time to be young.
I was very, very lucky.
Um and the majority of myboarding school experience was
very positive, except for thefirst year.
Hollyn (21:37):
Oh, really?
Abdi (21:38):
Yes, the first year of boarding school was immensely
difficult for me.
I was really out of place.
I did not I didn't feel like Iwas even the same age as
everyone because I grew up muchmore sheltered than a lot of
these kids.
These were kids, you know, Ifeel like in that era, American
kids, especially kids of greatprivilege, like the boarding
school mostly attracted, behavedlike adults.
(22:01):
I was still a very shelteredkid.
And so there was a lot ofbullying, there was a lot of
hazing.
Um, the hazing scenes thatRamin goes through in the book
are completely plucked from myexperience.
And if anything, they're toneddown.
I mean, because a lot of whathappened, I think like would be
too much for a YA book.
Um and but I think for me, thebiggest thing I was grappling
(22:24):
with in that book was thequestion of how can I make peace
with this institution that hurtme in such horrible ways and
hurt so many of my friendsbecause there was this culture
of both
Bullying and hazing.
Bullying and hazing, but also of sexual abuse from
teachers to students.
And so I was trying to makesense of how do I make peace
with the hurt this place caused,with the fact that this
(22:45):
institution also gave me all mybest friends, the teacher that
changed my life, the educationand mentorship to make all my
dreams come true, you know, thesense of community I got like it
really is a confusing thing.
And I think there's an instinctin the world these days to make
everything very black and whiteand right and wrong.
And I really feel like ifanything, all my to me, the
(23:07):
through line of all my books isfighting against that and trying
to build bridges and nuance,because I don't believe that you
can say, like people will sayabout an institution like that,
like, oh, just burn it down.
But it's like, but then whatabout all the good it did?
What about the fact that Iwould never have met my friends
and my mentor and discovered mycreativity?
Were it not like, yes, ofcourse, I wish I hadn't gone
(23:28):
through the horrible stuff, butthe good stuff also happened.
And so the book is to me, it'sa balancing of that, an
exploration of that culture ofabuse with a story of true
friends who meet because of thisschool, who discover their
power because of what the schoolgives them.
And it's try it's an attempt,maybe unsuccessful for some, but
(23:50):
successful for you.
Um but it's an attempt toreconcile all the places in the
world that do both good and badthings.
Hollyn (24:00):
Right.
Because I think a lot ofpeople-- I agree with you, a lot
of people in my generation arelike, this is bad, this is good,
and there's no in-betweenwhatsoever.
And if you say something that'sdifferent than my opinion,
you're wrong, and I'm not evengonna like listen to you.
And I feel like that's just nota great way to approach life,
because that's not how lifeworks.
Abdi (24:21):
I agree.
I mean, I go through this.
This is to me very much what mynext book, Only This Beautiful
Moment, like when I tell when Iask when people ask me what
that's about, because that bookis about an intergenerational
story of an Iranian family.
You're focusing on the threemen in the family, grandfather,
father, son, and two of them arequeer, and one of them is still
somewhat homophobic, and youget into all of their points of
(24:44):
view.
But that book very much wasborn out of a desire I had to
speak to people who alwayswanted to divide like my
experience as a queer personfrom my family and my culture,
because I didn't grow up withlike a culture and a family that
immediately embraced me when Icame out.
It was a struggle, and thatdoesn't mean I didn't love them
or didn't have empathy for wherethey were coming from.
(25:06):
But so many Western people werejust like exactly what you're
saying.
It's like, cut them out of yourlife.
You can't talk to them becausethey don't accept you.
And I'm like, wait, I don'tunderstand.
You're suggesting I cut allthese people out of my life.
They're my family and mycommunity.
Like, so I, you know, there issomething happening right now.
And I I mean, I mostly blamesocial media, but maybe there's
(25:30):
a lot of other factors that I'mnot seeing.
But yeah, you know, we I've hadso many conversations recently
with people who are just like, Idon't talk to my aunt because
she voted for X, or I don't gohome anymore because we don't
agree on this issue.
And I'm like, well, but if allof us stop talking to our
mothers and fathers and auntsand uncles because they don't
agree with us, what do we haveleft?
(25:53):
What's the fabric of oursociety?
And I'm not saying that weshouldn't stand up.
Like I had so manyuncomfortable conversations
within my community.
I still do.
I feel like I've done so muchto try and better conversations
around queerness in the Iraniancommunity and we're seeing the
results.
Not that I take all the credit,but I take some credit because
(26:14):
I put myself out there.
Um, but I I just don't believein closing the doors of
communication.
I feel like nothing good'sgonna come from that in the long
run, other than making peoplefeel good in the short term, you
know.
Then it's like, I did this thing and now I feel empowered.
Well, and you feel right and you feel like someone else
is wrong.
Hollyn (26:31):
Yeah.
Abdi (26:32):
But the thing is, is the person like why is the why is
the person wrong?
Like that's what I wanted to doin Only This Beautiful Moment
with the Said character who youknow, you first meet him as a
father who is somewhathomophobic.
I mean, not aggressively so,but very similar to the way I
experience homophobia in myculture.
It's more one of denial andsilence and compartmentalization
of like, I accept you, justdon't talk to me about it.
Hollyn (26:54):
It's kind of like the people that are like, I support
you, but not the lifestyle.
Abdi (26:57):
Exactly, exactly.
But then you go back to the1970s and you understand what he
went through as a teenager,what he lost, the love he lost,
the country he lost, the thingshe fought for.
And hopefully, readers willunderstand that you can't boil
someone down to their one worstquality or one best quality.
(27:19):
You have to get to know them.
And I always tell young people,and that's why I love readers.
Like when I meet people likeyou who are young and read
voraciously, I'm like, thankGod.
Because you have to be curious.
Like, yeah, if someone doessomething or says something that
that puts you on your guard orupsets you, like the right
response is not always to cutthat person out.
Sometimes the right response isto be like, why?
(27:40):
Ask them questions, get to knowwhy they became that way.
Hollyn (27:43):
Kind of like dig deep into that discomfort.
Abdi (27:46):
Well, and offer them-- I think we all want empathy and
curiosity.
So offer it to someone else.
And if you offer, I mean, thatwas one of the big revelations
of my life.
I was always like, oh, myparents don't accept me enough,
or my community doesn't acceptme enough.
And I'm like, well, when have Iasked them questions of their
experience?
Like, yeah, model the behavioryou want others to give you.
(28:06):
It doesn't, it's not alwaysgoing to work.
The world's not gonna be rosyif we all do that, but it'll be
a little bit.
Hollyn (28:13):
A little bit.
I'm like, you know, we'll havepaved the way for someone else
at least.
One hopes.
A little bit.
Abdi (28:18):
One hopes, yeah.
Hollyn (28:19):
So who do you think was the most difficult character for
you to write in Only ThisBeautiful Moment?
Like which of the threeprotagonists?
Abdi (28:25):
I mean, definitely Said.
Oh, yeah, for sure.
Because he's so like I said,he's the the other two
characters are queer and it waseasier to write them for that
reason.
Said is very outside my ownexperience.
Um and I wanted to write himwith a lot of passion.
Like I I I wanted to make surepeople understood that he also
(28:48):
had a broken heart and also hadall these dreams, but he was
still able to be this imperfectfather despite that.
And I mean, I hope I succeeded.
It was hard.
I'm very that's the book I'mproudest of, to be honest,
because it was to me the mostambitious and also the most
personal.
It's the one that really like Ihad to dig very, very deep both
(29:09):
into my own psyche and issueswith generational trauma and
immigration and queerness, andalso it required the most
difficult research because likewith like a love story, it's
very easy to find information onACTUP, it's well documented.
But Iran, unfortunately,doesn't have freedom of
expression or freedom of thepress.
(29:30):
Especially when researchingqueer life in Iran, there there
are no sources, so my sourceswere friends, cousins.
Like I would have to get peopleto talk to me, trust me, tell
me the history.
And so both for thecontemporary Iran that I wrote
and for Iran in the 70s, which Iwrote, I had to really gather
first hand accounts and then usethat to guide the story.
(29:52):
But it was so fun.
Hollyn (29:54):
Because the three characters were very, very
different.
I've read books where theauthors have kind of made the
characters a cut and paste sortof thing.
And that was not the case atall with any of your books, but
especially in Only ThisBeautiful Moment.
Abdi (30:09):
The beauty of writing books for me, who comes from a
screenwriting background, iswhen you write anything for film
or TV.
Hollyn (30:15):
Yeah.
Abdi (30:15):
A little piece of you is going to have to think about
things like budget.
And like you can't, it's noteasy in a movie or a TV show be
like, and now we're going to the1930s in Hollywood and we're on
the MGM lot.
And in a book, it doesn'tmatter.
Like you can be wherever youwant, however you want.
You can go as wide in scope asyou want.
Um, and so with this one, Ijust loved being able to travel
(30:36):
back and forth and show, youknow, that book is all about
contrast.
It's all about like, well, whatwas life like in US versus Iran
in different times and what andalso the contrast of
generations.
Like Bobby is a queer characterwho is in his teen years in the
1930s.
So he's obviously gonna have adifferent experience as Moud
who's come of a coming of age asa queer teen.
Hollyn (30:58):
I just want to give Bobby a hug.
Abdi (30:59):
Oh, I love Bobby.
Hollyn (31:01):
I know and like he went through so much.
Abdi (31:04):
He did, but he ends up having a happy life, I think.
I think and it doesn't looklike the life.
That was another thing.
I I deal with a lot.
It's hard.
I mean, being um being someonefrom a culture that's very
misunderstood in America is veryhard.
And I feel like this book wasalso my way of saying there are
other ways of existing, thereare other ways of being queer.
(31:27):
There are countries wherepeople may not be, they may not
identify as queer, they may notbe publicly queer, they may not
engage in the same rituals ofqueer community that we do, but
they still have a life and theystill have a community.
Um, and I deal with that all.
I mean, now I'm dealing withit, just with there's so much
(31:47):
happening in the world, and Ifeel like I hear so many
ignorant things about thehistory of like the relationship
between the US and the MiddleEast, and so the book is also a
way for me, hopefully in a veryemotional way, because I don't
want to preach to people, andI'm not a historian, I'm not a
nonfiction writer, but it was myway of just reminding people,
because nobody knows in thiscountry that the US ended
(32:10):
democracy in Iran.
It was the CIA, it was thefirst time they staged a coup,
actually.
The CIA was formed.
And then the first coup wasIran.
In the 1950s, there was ademocratically elected leader
who wanted to nationalize theoil, and at that point, the oil
was being taken by the Brits ofthe US, and so they got rid of
him and they put a monarchy init.
And so every time I hear peopletalk about like democracy,
(32:32):
democracy, and the West justwants democracy, and there's no
democracy in the Middle East.
I'm like, yes, of coursethere's no democracy in the
Middle East.
You didn't want them.
You wanted the oil, and youcouldn't get the oil from
democratic leaders.
So but you know, it's and it'snot to say that like the book is
not at all about politics, andit's not about like trying to
make a statement about America,but it is about three
(32:56):
generations.
And I think when we talk aboutgenerations and we we talk about
like moving forward in theworld, we have to acknowledge
the wrongs of the past.
And we're seeing so many peoplestruggling with that right now,
whether it's like curriculumsand schools that are like
barring conversations aboutslavery or the Holocaust or the
(33:16):
real history of what's happenedin the Middle East.
I mean, these are these arejust facts.
So it's like we if we are notstarting with basic facts, how
are we going to find peace?
And so that to me is anotherthing.
When I was writing this book,I'm like, I just want a book
that helps people through thesecharacters understand people
from this region are carrying alot.
(33:37):
They're carrying decades ofconflict that are grounded in
the actions of this country.
Hollyn (33:43):
Speaking of the past, very, very sort of abrupt
transition point.
But you know, Kam in DesertEchoes also sort of has his own
battles with the past.
Uh, he goes to Joshua Treetwice in the book, first time
with his boyfriend Ash, and thesecond time to find closure, you
know, with his close walkinggroup about Ash's disappearance.
(34:05):
And you did mention in yourauthor's note that the character
of Ash was based on your firstboyfriend Damon.
And so I I'm wondering how didyou approach writing Ash
specifically?
And how do you generally writecharacters that are inspired by
different people in your life?
Abdi (34:21):
Oh, that's a good question.
Um so okay, first of all, Iwhen I say someone was inspired
by, I really do mean inspiredby.
Damon is very different thanAsh in so many crucial ways.
So, you know, when I when acharacter is inspired by someone
in my life or by some piece ofmy life, I feel like I take that
(34:46):
energy, the core of what theyrepresented to me, and I try to
then allow creativity to turnthem into something very
different.
So in in very important ways,Ash was like Damon.
Ash is an artist, although inAsh's case he's more of a visual
artist.
Damon was a musician.
Um, but the core of the kind ofrelationship Kam and Ash have
(35:06):
is very similar to the kind ofrelationship Damon and I had.
It was kind of young love, itwas very, you know, in the way
of young love.
It can be very passionate, verymad, very like you kind of are
not looking at things logicallybecause you're so caught up in
the magic of it that you're notthinking like, oh, when he
disappears to the desert tocreate, something's wrong.
(35:27):
You're just like, no, ofcourse.
That's that's what people do ifthey're creative.
They just disappear for a fewdays and don't call their
boyfriends, you know, like whichis something Ash does and
something Damon did.
And so that I think the, youknow, I grew up with no
awareness of addiction, mentalillness.
A lot of things we now knowabout, they were completely
(35:50):
completely hidden from me.
And so when I met Damon in myearly 20s, I wasn't looking for
signs of anything.
I just believed, I was so inlove with him, I believed
everything at face value.
And it wasn't until later Irealized he was struggling with
a lot.
And so I think a lot of whatthis book is about is about
Kam's journey of making peacewith not just losing his
(36:12):
boyfriend, but also making peacewith how could he have missed
all this?
What could he have done to savesomeone?
Because I think inevitably whenwe love someone that we lose,
we go through a period ofblaming ourselves and thinking,
well, what could I have donedifferently?
Why am I to blame?
Am I allowed to feel joy again?
Am I allowed to fall in loveagain?
(36:32):
Um, that's a lot of what that'sabout.
And we should talk about howDamon is peripherally connected
to your life, yeah.
Your mom, right?
So your mom and I first metbecause she was in Damon's show,
which was called Bare (36:44):
A Pop Opera.
Do you know Bare?
Hollyn (36:47):
I don't.
Abdi (36:48):
So there's gonna be a new production.
My this is so wild.
One of, I don't know if youknow who Michelle Mulroney is,
who's uh she's a great, greatwriter who's also on the board
of the WGA.
Her daughter, Stella, who I'venow watched grown up, who I
first met when she was like sixor seven.
Now she works at Yada, where mydaughter does musical theater.
And Stella started a littletheater, and their next show is
gonna be Bare.
So their theater is gonna puton Bare.
(37:09):
Isn't that wild that myfriend's kids we're at now at
the stage where like newproductions of Bare are being
staged by my friends' teenagechildren who started theaters.
But Bare, so I was taken toBare.
I don't even know if you knowthis story, if your mom knows
this story, but I was taken toBare by my friend Mark Russ, who
I met studying at the LeeStrasberg Institute for Acting
(37:30):
when we were teenagers, who Iadore.
I love Mark Russ.
Um, he took me there to set meup with his friend John
Hartmere, who co-wrote Bare withDamon.
The show is spectacular.
The show is a masterpiece.
It really is.
I bawled my eyes out.
I mean, this move this showmoved me so deeply.
I saw it so many times,obviously, because I dated
(37:51):
Damon, but um, it's a gay, kindof a gay Romeo and Juliet set in
a Catholic boarding school.
It's the music is stunning,it's it would rip your heart
out.
Um and then I was supposed tobe set up with John Hartmere,
and then I met Damon outside theshow.
And it was just one of thosethings where I looked in his
eye, and it was very much likeAsh and Kam.
Um, and much, you know, withinDesert Echoes Ash and Kam bond
(38:14):
over the their love for Lana DelRey.
That's how they first meet, isthat they write the same Lana
song.
But for me and Damon, it was itwas music, just different
musicians because Lana wasn'tmaking music yet.
But we realized when we metthat we both had the same Kate
Bush CD in our car, and that wasone of the first things that we
were like, what?
You know, because it just feelslike this instant thing.
Because back then also KateBush, I know she went viral
because of Stranger Things withRunning Up that Hill.
(38:36):
But back in our day in America,Kate Bush was a very niche
artist.
So to have the same Kate BushCD in your car was an odd thing.
And and then we realized wewere both obsessed with Tori
Amos after our first date, andthen she became this huge part
of our courtship.
And so, music, the way thatlike art brings people together
and makes them feel like theyunderstand some secret part of
(38:58):
each other was very, very realum for me and Damon.
And that that is something Iwanted to put in the
relationship as well.
I think if people read like thedescriptions of my books,
they're gonna think every singleone is deeply depressing.
But they're really not.
Hollyn (39:13):
They're not.
Abdi (39:14):
They're not.
And I am generally a hopefulperson.
I'm an open-eyed person and aclear-eyed person who wants to
look at the harder parts of lifebecause I think if you try to
bury them, they're gonna comeback and they're gonna like you.
Yes.
But but I also feel like thecharacters in my books tend to
find joy and hope and love andlike in their deepest, darkest
(39:34):
moods.
Absolutely.
Yeah, absolutely, which is whatlife is, and we should all we
should all, I think, be betteroff accept at accepting that
that is the nature of life, thatthere will always be darkness
and there will always be light,and we cannot control when the
darkness and the light alwayscomes.
We can sometimes add to it,yeah, but but we have to accept
(39:59):
it when it comes and we shouldnever feel guilty about the
darkness and never feel like wedon't deserve the light.
Hollyn (40:06):
I'd also love to ask a few more questions about you
know your process, philosophy,and vision as you know, a
creator.
Um, let's start with in all ofyour books, what has been your
favorite character to write anddevelop?
Abdi (40:19):
Oh my God.
I can't, I really don't know ifI can answer that question.
Um, my favorite character towrite and develop.
I don't know that I have one.
I mean, I do feel the closestemotionally to Only This
Beautiful Moment.
I do think that one.
I mean.
Hollyn (40:35):
You're like, thinking...
Abdi (40:37):
I really can't.
I don't know if I can.
I mean, maybe Bobby, because Ilove that you get to see him as
a teenager and then you get tosee him as a very old man, as a
grandfather.
And there's something I'mobsessed with time.
I've always been obsessed.
I've always been one of thosepeople who's like stuck in time.
I'm always researching somehistorical period.
Um even as a kid, I would belistening to like music from the
(40:57):
30s and watching movies fromthe 40s.
And, you know, I just so to meto get a to write a character
that you see at multiple pointsin time is a very powerful and
wonderful thing.
Hollyn (41:08):
What do you enjoy the most about incorporating music
icons into some of your work,like Madonna and Like a Love
Story and Lana Del Rey andDesert Echoes?
Abdi (41:17):
I you know, I guess it started with Madonna, like with
Like a Love Story.
I didn't realize how big of apart she would end up playing in
the book.
But when I was excavating myown emotional life from that
era, it became so abundantlyclear how important she was to
me and to the whole generation.
(41:39):
Like I, you know, young peoplehave their own opinions of
Madonna based on whatever'shappening, you know, in the
world.
But what I what I hope youngpeople take away from from that
book is that in the 80s and 90s,when the AIDS crisis was
happening, the gay community wasvilified.
They were stigmatized.
We were not the president ofthe United States at the time,
(42:01):
Ronald Reagan, didn't even saythe word AIDS for four years.
So, I mean, right now, as we dothis interview, we are four
years into the COVID pandemic.
It would be as if no USpresident had even said the
word, let alone started apolicy.
Just done nothing, just letpeople die.
So, and there were nocelebrities.
I mean, there were somecelebrities who were many of
whom were older, like ElizabethTaylor, whose careers were
(42:23):
generally behind them, who werestanding up.
And Elizabeth Taylor was a hugeinspiration in.
I do write about her in like alove story as well.
But Madonna was the biggeststar for young people.
I mean, her audience heraudience were like 10, 12, 13,
14.
When she released her Like aPrayer album, I was 13 years
(42:44):
old, and inside there was aleaflet about safe sex and
about, you know, AIDS andfighting the stigma.
Yeah.
That was not being taught to myage group at the time.
I mean, were it not forMadonna, a whole generation, I
was not taught that, like by myfamily or by school, because you
couldn't even talk about gaysex, you know?
Um when Truth or Dare and theVogue video in that whole era,
(43:05):
which was when the book takesplace in 1989 and 1990 came out,
it was the first time that Isaw any image of gay men that
wasn't rooted in their death ortheir stigmatization.
I mean, she presented all thesebrown and black men, men of
color, as her friends, as herdancers, as her family.
She made a whole movie whereshe shone a spotlight on them.
(43:25):
In the movie, there was thefirst gay pride parade I ever
saw, the first gay kiss I eversaw.
You talk to almost every gayman of my generation and say the
same thing.
That was the first gay kissthey saw, the first pride parade
they saw.
Before that, it was just like,you're gonna die and you're
horrible.
And then Madonna came and shetook a lot of really big risks.
And I sometimes get a littledefensive when it comes to her
(43:46):
because people love to say thatshe like exploited the gay
community or stole from the gaycommunity because, of course,
the work she did became sopopular.
But actually, she really riskedquite a lot.
And she did so much in terms ofsupporting the charities,
showing up.
So, you know, for me, that thatwas a very organic thing.
(44:06):
Once I start to write about ActUp, about the activists, the
artists who are helping, I'mlike, how could I not write
about Madonna?
Like it's it it would be a hugeum gap in the in the history.
Then, you know, with Lana, itwas a little different.
Like this book is not about inthis book, Lana is not treated
in the same way as Madonna, youknow.
(44:28):
But to me, Lana is like theartist of the last decade or so
or 15 years of my life.
She really is the artist Ilisten to the most.
She means a lot to me.
She opened a lot of likeemotional avenues for me to
explore through her lyrics andsongwriting.
And when I was writing thisbook, I really wanted that, like
I said, that relationship tomirror the kind of relationship
(44:50):
I have with Damon.
And because music was soimportant to us, and it for us,
it was Tori, really.
But I was like, who is today'sTori?
And it really is Lana.
Um and so I wanted to show thepower of art to bring people
together.
Hollyn (45:04):
And what do you hope your audience takes away from
your work?
Abdi (45:09):
Oh God.
Hollyn (45:10):
I feel like we've sort of talked about this throughout.
Abdi (45:12):
Yeah, I really hope that I hope, and I think my books do
this.
I just hope the audience takesaway from my work that they need
to be more open to newconversations, uncomfortable
conversations, that when you'retalking about the arts, it's a
space to get beyond right andwrong.
(45:33):
When we write a book, we're notwriting it to make one person
right and one person wrong.
We're writing it to delve intothe entire nuance of the human
experience and hopefully makeeveryone equally right and
wrong, or equally not right andnot wrong.
Right.
But to present a way to havedifficult conversations that
aren't about pointing fingersand blame and division.
(45:56):
I really do get frightened byhow divided people are these
days.
Hollyn (46:01):
Um and how people like blame each other just because
you know they don'tshare the exact--
And people don't want to have conversations. They don't want to sit down and have really difficult conversations. And so I hope that what my books help readers get to as they grow up is seeing the value in--
Nuance.
Abdi (46:19):
Yes.
Hollyn (46:20):
And let's do some fun lightning round questions.
So it's like icebreaker style,like quick question, quick
answer.
What's your favorite non-curseword insult?
Abdi (46:29):
I mean, is deranged an insult?
It kind of is.
I mean, I use deranged as acompliment, but I love it.
Hollyn (46:34):
I love being called deranged because people are
like, she's weird.
And I'm like, I'll take that.
Abdi (46:39):
Same.
I'm always like when peoplecall me weird, I'm like, yes,
thank you.
Would you want to be boring andnormal?
What's yours?
Hollyn (46:45):
I use stinky as a noun.
So I'll be like, you stinky.
And then that'll be
Abdi (46:51):
I like stinky.
Hollyn (46:51):
What's your favorite Lana Del Ray song?
Abdi (46:54):
Oh god, it's so hard.
It's genuinely so hard to pickone Lana Del Ray song.
Um I go back and forth all thetime on what my favorite.
Hollyn (47:05):
Well, what about right now?
Abdi (47:08):
The song that I listen to a lot right now is How to
Disappear from NormanF--- Rockwell.
I really love that.
What's yours?
Hollyn (47:16):
Sweet.
Abdi (47:17):
I love sweet.
I love sweet.
That's one of my that's one ofmy top three from the new album.
Hollyn (47:22):
Pineapple on pizza, yes or no?
Abdi (47:25):
No.
Hard pass.
You like it?
Hollyn (47:27):
Well, it's okay.
It's okay.
It's okay.
It's not my go-to, but if it'sthere.
Abdi (47:36):
No, I don't want it anywhere near me.
Hollyn (47:37):
I will.
I mean, if there's otheroptions, I will skip it.
But if it's like
Abdi (47:41):
Do you want to hear something even more
controversial?
Hollyn (47:44):
What?
Abdi (47:45):
I don't like pizza toppings.
I like a margherita.
Hollyn (47:48):
I like margherita.
Abdi (47:48):
I like basil, and that's it.
Hollyn (47:50):
What about mushrooms?
Abdi (47:52):
No.
Well, mushrooms I don't mind.
I don't mind mushrooms, but forthe most part, if you're
ordering pizza with me, I willalways order margherita.
Hollyn (47:59):
I mean, I love margherita, but like seriously?
That's insane.
Abdi (48:04):
Yeah.
Hollyn (48:05):
Are you okay?
Abdi (48:06):
Um, no. [laughter] Is anyone?
Hollyn (48:13):
Um, that's a great, great, great question that we
should do another... [laughter]Um, so do you like the middle
brownie piece or the edgebrownie piece?
Abdi (48:24):
Oh god, now you're really gonna ask if I'm okay.
Hollyn (48:27):
Yeah.
Abdi (48:27):
I hate brownies.
Hollyn (48:28):
How??
Abdi (48:34):
No, I know.
Our daughter is a baker.
She has discovered the thingsthat I like when it comes to
bake because I like like a plainscone.
Hollyn (48:43):
That's so British.
Abdi (48:45):
I'm very British.
I'm obsessed with the UK.
I swear in a past life, I wasmy next book is gonna have a
lot.
It's gonna be my like, I alwayssaid I start from a place of
like these are the things Ilove, and it's gonna have a lot
of London.
But yeah, I don't likebrownies.
I'm sorry.
What about you?
What was the question?
Middle or side?
Hollyn (49:01):
Middle or edge.
Abdi (49:02):
I reject them both.
Which one do you like?
Hollyn (49:04):
I don't know.
It depends on the day.
So sometimes if I want like acrispier outside and a softer
inside, I'll take the edge.
But sometimes I just wantbrownie.
And you know, you see whatyou're like, you're--
Abdi (49:16):
But wouldn't you rather go have brownies with someone like
me who's gonna just give you mypiece?
Yes!
I also don't like donuts, most cookies, the majority of
cake.
But I love sweets.
I'm like a obsessed withsweets.
I love ice cream.
Hollyn (49:29):
I I how how...
Okay, so we're gonna go deepnow.
Are you ready?
Abdi (49:36):
Oh, I'm ready.
Hollyn (49:37):
So if you could give one piece of advice to your younger
self, what would it be?
Abdi (49:43):
Honestly, I think the advice would be not to care so
much what other people think.
That was the that was the thingthat stopped me for so long.
I think all the things I did inmy life, like writing, you
know, all the stuff you askedabout earlier, writing these
books, putting myself on thepage as a queer Iranian.
I'm so happy I did it.
I'm so happy I got to the pointto do it.
(50:03):
The reason I didn't do itsooner was the fear of what
other people think.
And I think when we're young,we care so much about that.
And but I will say for anyyoung listener, and hopefully
there'll be lots of younglisteners, I also very much
believe adults can't tell younot to make your own mistakes.
(50:24):
You have to make your ownmistakes, you know.
Like it's all part of thejourney.
And so, yes, you can alwayslook back and say, Oh, I wish
I'd done X or not cared about Y.
But part of being young islearning by by messing up.
And I think that that's soimportant to remember.
Never strive for perfection.
That's not the goal ever.
The goal is growth.
Hollyn (50:45):
Yeah.
Wow, that that was deep.
You are a very deep person,Abdi.
Abdi (50:51):
Am I?
I mean, I don't know.
Hollyn (50:53):
I mean, I mean...
Abdi (50:54):
I can be very silly.
Hollyn (50:56):
You can be very silly.
I mean, it I think it's verysilly that you don't like the
brownies, but that's a separateconversation.
Abdi (51:02):
But I love ice cream.
Hollyn (51:03):
I agree.
My brother actually doesn'tlike ice cream.
Abdi (51:06):
Okay, see that, and you're concerned about my mental
health 'cause of brownies?
Go take care of your brother.
Hollyn (51:11):
Yeah.
Um, so before we wrap up, Iwanted to ask if there was a
particular cause or organizationthat's you know near and dear
to your heart.
Um, as you may know, StoriesWithout Borders really strives
to um amplify organizations thatyou know use the power of
stories and service topositively impact the world.
So, you know, we'd love to, youknow, amplify anything that you
(51:33):
care about because you knowyou're such an awesome person,
even though you have very wrongopinions about brownies.
Abdi (51:40):
Oh my God, I'm gonna crack up.
Um, there's so manyorganizations I could talk
about.
I mean, obviously, with Like aLove Story, which focuses on
AIDS, you know, I I hopeeveryone who's young, I know
this is not taught still, butunderstands that HIV is not
over.
Yes, it's more treatable, butthere's still quite a lot of
cases, even in the UnitedStates, and it's mostly young
(52:02):
people.
So any organization that'sworking on outreach and
education, you know, like AMFARor AIDS Project Los Angeles, I
mean, there's so many.
But the one I guess I'll shoutout for real because I shout it
out in Desert Echoes at the end.
It's a bit the that book reallytouches on addiction.
I really do believe often likethe organizations we should
shine a light on are smaller,more local.
(52:24):
Um, my husband's on the boardof a recovery home called
Awakening Recovery out here.
Um, it's a really differentmodel.
It's like a sober livingfacility, it's a longer-term
care facility, and the resultsreally speak for themselves.
Um, so everyone should look upAwakening Recovery.
They take donations.
(52:44):
Um, I think unfortunately, wehave seen in the United States,
and I would guess across theworld because of the way the
economy works, that they havecut a lot of funding for
addiction services, mentalhealth services, a lot of the
services people need when theyneed help with their recovery.
And so it's so important tofill those gaps.
Hollyn (53:05):
Yeah.
That's amazing.
And that sounds like a reallyawesome organization.
Abdi (53:11):
Yeah, it is.
Hollyn (53:11):
Thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
Abdi (53:13):
Oh my god, thank you for having me.
Hollyn (53:14):
I had so much fun.
Abdi (53:15):
This was a blast.
Hollyn (53:16):
I had a blast as well.
Abdi (53:18):
Thank you.
I'm glad there were no browniesin front of us.
Hollyn (53:22):
Thanks for listening to Stories Without Borders the
Podcast.
Please rate and review the showon your favorite podcast
platform.
You can learn more online atstorieswithout borders.org or
follow us on Instagram atstories underscore without
borders.
And if you likewatching your podcasts,
subscribe to our YouTube channelat Stories underscore
(53:42):
Without Borders theStories Without Borders the Podcast is written, hosted and produced by me, Hollyn Alpert. I also wrote and performed the theme music.
Hey listeners, quick update on today's guest, Abdi
Nazemian.
Abdi has a fantastic new bookout called Exquisite Things,
which was still under wraps whenwe recorded the episode, but is
now available wherever you buybooks.
So please pick up a copy andkeep listening for my
conversation with Abdi.
Welcome to Stories WithoutBorders the Podcast.
(00:22):
I'm your host Hollyn.
Here we interview people who use the power of stories and service to promote connection, empathy and understanding around the world. You can learn more online at StorieWithoutBorders.orgor follow us on
Instagram and YouTube at Stories underscore WithoutBorders. Thanks for listening, here's today's episode.
Today we are speaking with award-winning author, screenwriter and producer, Abdi Nazemian. Abdi has written for a number of TV shows including Ordinary Joe and The Village. He has written films including The Artist's Wife, Menendez (01:03):
Blood Brothers, and The Quiet. Abdi's first novel, The Walk-in Closet, was awarded Best Debut at the Lambda Literary Awards. He has since written five YA
novels, The Authentics, Like aLove Story, Only This Beautiful
Moment, The Chandler Legaciesand Desert Echoes.
Like a Love Story won StonewallHonor and was chosen by Time
Magazine as one of the 100 bestyoung adult books of all time.
Only This Beautiful Moment haswon a number of awards,
including the Stonewall Award,the Lambda Literary Award, and
(01:25):
the Amy Mathers Award from theCanadian Children's Book Center.
As Head of Development forWaters End Productions.
Abdi has been an executiveproducer or associate producer
on numerous films, includingCall Me By Your Name, The House
of Tomorrow and Little Woods.
So yay, welcome, Abdi!
Abdi (01:42):
Thank you for having me.
Hollyn (01:43):
Thank you so much for coming, it's such an honor.
I'm a big fan of all of yourbooks.
So I'm so excited to introduceyou to our audience.
One thing I really love aboutyour work is that you're a very
personal writer.
You incorporate a lot of yourown experiences.
And one of the things that hasstood out is that you mentioned
that you live in a lot ofdifferent places and how you
incorporate that into a lot ofyour stories.
(02:05):
And could you start byexplaining and giving us a brief
snapshot of your own personalstory, including how and when
you decide to be a writer?
Abdi (02:15):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, I'll give the as shorta version as I can and feel free
to ask follow-ups if there'spieces that I skip over too
fast.
But I was born in Iran, whichis an incredibly important part
of my identity that I writeabout often.
But when I was two years old,there was a revolution in Iran.
And my parents left and we wentto France.
Um, we spent five years inParis.
(02:36):
And when I was seven, we allmoved to Toronto and we became
Canadian citizens.
But we only stayed there forthree years.
Um, kind of crucially for me,at least, when we lived in
Toronto, we were living with intwo kind of side-by-side
buildings in the middle of thecity with a lot of my cousins
and aunts and uncles.
So it was a very happy time forme because I felt so culturally
displaced a lot of mychildhood.
(02:57):
But then when I was 10, wemoved to the suburbs of New
York, just my immediate family.
And that was much harder.
Um, that was like probably thefirst time I felt because I was
no longer with my cousins.
Hollyn (03:09):
Right.
Abdi (03:09):
I felt like a real sense of isolation and culture shock.
Up until that point, I'd alsoonly been in cities.
So the suburbs felt veryforeign.
It was very...it was myintroduction to America, and I
didn't fit in.
I mean, I've written about thisin a lot of my books, but um,
and then when I was 14, I wassent away to boarding school to
a school called Choate RosemaryHall in Connecticut, which is
(03:31):
very much the inspiration forthe Chandler Legacies.
Um, and that was probably whenI started to understand that
creativity was something Iloved.
I didn't, I never, you know,like many immigrant kids of my
generation, a career in the artswas not something that seemed
like an option.
So I didn't think that was whatI would do.
But in boarding school, Idiscovered my love for acting
(03:52):
and improv and theater.
And I was the first student atour boarding school to direct a
sh full show.
Hollyn (03:58):
So were you more like a theater kid or were you more
like in tech?
Abdi (04:02):
Theater kid, I would say.
Um, but also just a creativekid.
I loved writing.
I had an English teacher whowas a big, big figure in my
life.
He really gave me an example oflike what it could be to be an
adult that was different fromthe ones I saw.
He was the first person I cameout to.
Um, so I started to get exposedand then went to college in New
York City, did a lot ofinternships in film and media,
(04:27):
and I was told by my last bossto move to LA, just get get a
one-way ticket if you want towork in the entertainment
industry, which I did.
I love, I grew up, I should sayalso those years in the
suburbs, I became obsessed withlike movies, old Hollywood
movies, books, music.
I was because I didn't have alot of friends, I just immersed
myself in fictional worlds.
Hollyn (04:46):
Yeah, I feel like that's the case with a lot of people
that are like, I need to escapethis world that I'm in.
Abdi (04:50):
You need to escape.
And so fiction and anyfictional world, be it through a
book, a film, a musician,whatever it gives you, it
empowers you by making you feellike there's somewhere in the
world you might belong thatisn't where you're from.
And um, so when I came to LA, Idid what everybody does, and I
just got assistant jobs, and fortwo years, I had two different
bosses.
And other than answeringphones, my biggest job was
(05:12):
reading scripts.
So it was after two years ofreading scripts, and you don't
just have to read the script,you have to provide what's
called coverage for your boss,which is a summary of the script
plus a recommendation ofwhether they should read it or
not, because your bosses neverhave time to read these hundreds
of scripts.
And so, in doing so, it'salmost like going to grad school
for screenwriting where you'relike, Well, why does this script
(05:32):
work or not work?
And how do I communicate thatto my boss?
And after two years of that, Iwas like, wait a minute, like,
why shouldn't I be a writer?
Like these people, all thepeople submitting scripts are
getting paid to write.
And I feel like I love towrite, and I'm not making as
much as them answering phones.
And so that's when I called afriend of mine who was getting
an MFA in playwriting and said,Do you want to write a
(05:53):
screenplay together?
And we did, and that started.
I'll stop there because thatlike was the beginning of my
writing career, which startedonly with film and TV.
Hollyn (06:02):
So your first novel, The Walk-in Closet, is
self-published?
Abdi (06:06):
It is self-published, yeah.
Hollyn (06:08):
Um, and it's about the Persian community in Los
Angeles, and it was written foradults.
And then you sort of pivoted tomore YA stuff with The
Authentics.
Uh, can you explain thatprocess and why you decide to
switch genres?
Abdi (06:24):
Yeah, I mean, so The Walk in Closet was a novel I wrote
largely out of a frustration Ifelt in my first decade of
writing in Hollywood, which wasI couldn't get anything about
Iranian people made or queerpeople.
And it was a very differenttime.
Like sometimes I'll tell youngpeople things that I heard back
then and they don't believe it.
But like the very first scriptI wrote for a studio, the first
(06:45):
set of notes came back, and oneof the bullet points was "cut
all gay characters." And thatwas just a it wasn't even
something we flinched at.
Just cut all the gaycharacters.
I mean, that was what we weretold to do.
It was, but it was very, veryclear all along the way that
telling my personal storiesgiven the background I had would
(07:06):
be very hard.
Hollyn (07:06):
Right.
Abdi (07:07):
And after about 10 years, I realized I had written a lot
of personal scripts, they justnever got made.
And I'm like, I have to getsomething out there in the
world.
So I wrote The Walk-in Closetlargely out of like a deep
desire to just put something onthe page about my cultural
community.
Um, it was also, I should say,the first novel to ever have a
truly gay male Iraniancharacter.
(07:29):
That's right.
And it came out in 2014.
So that just tells you how rareit was.
Well, you know
Hollyn (07:34):
And 2014 isn't even that long ago, is it?
Abdi (07:36):
It's not that long ago.
But it's also, you know, in ourcommunity, people weren't
coming out in the same way.
There were, of course, queerpeople, but it wasn't, we
weren't identifying as openlyqueer in the same way as Western
counterparts of ours.
So that book was rejectedeverywhere.
I mean, my-- I got literaryagents, they sent it to every
publishing.
And back then there were morepublishers, but everyone
(07:57):
rejected it.
And I gave up.
I was kind of like, well, it'snot worthy of being published.
And a couple years later, I hadkids and I went to business
school.
So I had a little bit of amid-career moment where I
thought maybe I would stopwriting.
Because it is for anyonelistening who wants to be a
writer, you have to understandthat there's no consistency.
(08:19):
You can have a great successfollowed by the worst failures
of your life.
You can work a lot one year andmake a lot of money and not
make any.
So there was a point when I hadmy kids where I'm like, should
I pivot into something morestable?
Um, but it was ironicallybusiness school that got me back
into writing, but in a muchmore fruitful way.
And one of the things was thatI started to realize like I
(08:43):
believed in The Walk-in Closetas a book.
And yes, it had been rejectedeverywhere, but I was studying
business.
I was studying entrepreneurswho believed in themselves.
So I'm like, well, I believe inmyself, so I'll self-publish
it.
And my agency at the time had alot of infrastructure to help
me.
So I mean, yes, Iself-published it, but they had
relationships with coverdesigners and editors and
distributors, and they helped mea lot.
(09:04):
And the book ended up winningthe Lambda Literary Award, which
is a pretty prestigious awardin the Bell GBT space, and
nobody expected it.
Nobody expected it.
Hollyn (09:14):
Including yourself.
Abdi (09:16):
Including myself.
I went to the I flew to NewYork for the Lambda Literary
Awards.
And my agent at the time, he'snot my agent anymore, but I love
him.
He remains a very good friend.
I always, always laugh aboutthis story with him.
But he met me and my husbandfor drinks before the awards,
and he was like, he was like, ifyou were gonna win, they would
have told me.
So just go have fun.
You're not gonna win.
I'm not gonna go because I wehad a drink now.
(09:38):
And and then I won.
And I texted him, and I'm like,ah, you weren't there, and I
won.
But um, but he he was the onewho then said to me, You should
keep writing books.
This one obviously did a lotbetter than any of us expected,
but you should pick a genre or alane that is a little more
commercial so we can try to sellyour book.
And so I was thinking, youknow, he gave me a list, and the
(09:59):
list was things like you know,you can imagine it's like
thrillers or horror or rom-comor you know, romance, all that
stuff.
But YA was on the list.
And kind of simultaneous tothis, my cousin Vita is a school
teacher.
She's amazing.
I love her.
She was very much like immersedin YA literature before I was
because when I was young, YAwasn't a thing.
(10:20):
And she was sending me books.
So she, you know, through her,I discovered what was happening
in YA.
So I was reading books like UmAristotle and Dante Discover the
Secrets of the Universe, orSimon versus the Homo sapiens,
like a lot of the early queer YAbooks, and they were very like
Aristotle and Dante, especiallyis so culturally specific.
Um, and it was such a bigsuccess.
(10:41):
And so I'm like, wait, there'sa world where people actually
want these small, culturallyspecific, queer stories.
Like, that's what I want to do.
Yeah.
And that that was really whatconvinced me to try YA.
It felt like a world that Icould hopefully write that also
wanted the stories that I tell.
And that's always a very hardthing as a writer, is like
(11:03):
there's a kind of story I know Iwant to tell.
And often I'm picking, like, Ididn't think I could write
books.
Books were way above what Ithought I could do.
I mean, I had to take the TOEFLto get into college.
English was not my firstlanguage.
You know, I writing prose feltway above me.
But I'm like, okay, this is aworld where people seem to want
the stories I have to tell themto learn how to write within
(11:25):
this world.
Hollyn (11:26):
You're a very, very poetic writer.
I mean, at least in my opinion,because you have such vivid
imagery and like metaphors.
I'm like, oh wow, I neverthought of it that way.
Abdi (11:36):
But some, you know, some of that might come from the fact
that I speak, so I speak fivelanguages.
Right.
Um, I love languages.
And in some ways, maybe thepoetry comes from the fact that
the Persian language is verypoetic, and we do speak in
different ways, and that mightcolor the way I write in
English, because I don'tnecessarily communicate in
(11:56):
English the way someone does whowas born and raised here.
I still speak Persian with myparents and my cousins all the
time.
I grew up in France and went toFrench school in Canada.
So French is very ingrained inme.
We speak Spanish in our home alot.
Like, so I feel like there'sdifferent ways, kind of in the
same way that like there'smusicians, you know, like ABBA
being the most obvious fromSweden, but there's so many
(12:17):
foreign musicians who write inEnglish and they're so good at
writing lyrics that feel alittle odd.
And I think part of it isbecause English is not their
first language.
Hollyn (12:28):
I've heard you speak a lot about Like a Love Story,
your third novel and second YAnovel, um, and how it was a
turning point for you as awriter.
Um, the book itself is aboutthree teens in 1989, New York
City, um, that navigate love andloss during the AIDS epidemic.
Um, it won several awards andhonors and has also been banned
(12:48):
in certain places.
So I'm wondering why is itimportant for you to tell this
specific story?
Abdi (12:53):
Wow.
Um, yeah, I mean, so Like aLove Story for me is a big
turning point.
I think part of that is becauseit was the first book where I
felt like I was really writingabout my own personal emotional
journeys.
I mean, in The Walk-in Closetand The Authentics, I was
writing about Iranian culture,but I was always writing about
it from the perspective of acharacter who was very different
(13:15):
than me.
I mean, in both books, theprotagonist whose voice you hear
the book through is a femalecharacter.
I was never really plumbing thedepths of my own emotional
journey.
And the way Like a Love Storycame about is that I had The
Authentics had come out.
I had a great editor andpublisher, and they wanted to do
a follow-up book with me.
And they asked me to pitch somestories.
(13:37):
And after a decade inHollywood, I was thinking of
pitches as like what a Hollywoodpitch is like.
Think of a great log line and abig concept.
And so I kept pitching themthese big concept ideas, and
they kept rejecting them.
And then finally I had lunchwith my editor, and she was
like, I want you to write thebook that you want to write,
like the book that's from yourheart, and what is that?
(13:57):
And for many, many years I hadwanted to write a version of
Like a Love Story.
I didn't know what the plotwould be, but I said to her, I'm
like, the only thing that I'vealways wanted to write that I
feel like I couldn't because ofthe the boundaries in Hollywood
was a book about what it feltlike for me moving as an
immigrant kid to New York duringthe worst years of the AIDS
crisis, knowing inside it wasthe first years where I could
(14:19):
feel inside that I was gay, butI didn't even have a word for
it, but I could tell I wasdifferent and attracted to men.
And I came into the city thatwas kind of the center of the
crisis, and all the informationthat was available to me was
about the stigma, the shame, thefear, you know, equating
gayness with death.
And I'm like in my brain, I'mthinking like she's just gonna
(14:42):
be like, You are absolutely outof your mind.
You cannot write that book,especially as a YA book.
And she was like, That's what Iwant you to write.
And I'm like, What?
You know, and that to me,again, like this to me is the
magic of YA.
It's it's a world where editorsand readers are demanding the
most personal stories.
I couldn't believe they wantedthis book.
And I went in, I don't plot outmy book, so I did a lot of, I
(15:04):
went into a deep research mode.
I knew that I wanted to write alot about Act Up.
And so Act Up is anorganization that I grew up
reading about, that I feel verygrateful for.
So I did a lot of research.
I immersed myself back in themusic of the time.
I really put myself for aperiod back in the shoes of my
own childhood self, like takingin in the 80s and 90s.
(15:27):
And and then I took a trip toLondon, which is my favorite
writing city, and I started towrite with no outline, no ideas
of who would the characterswould be or what would happen.
And, you know, Reza came first.
Judy was actually a character Ihad written for one of the
rejected books that neverhappened.
She was a character that I waswriting in a contemporary novel,
and I'd written like a chapteror two, and I loved her.
(15:49):
And I was like, you know what?
I'm gonna take her voicebecause I feel like she'd be
really fun with Reza.
And then Art came from that,and Uncle, so all the characters
flowed.
It was the it was the firsttime, and part of the reason I
think it's why it was a bigturning point.
Number one is because it wasthe first time I wrote genuinely
for my own emotionalexperience.
The second is it was the firsttime I had what I think all
(16:09):
artists want, which is anexperience where you really feel
like the book is writing itselfand you're just a bystander.
You almost like I have memoriesof like just writing and not
even knowing what was happening.
I'm like, all this stuff iscoming, and I'm just like
typing, and it feels like it'scoming from some higher source.
And it was so powerful.
(16:30):
And, you know, I mean, why thebooks resonated, I can't believe
I thought I was writing themost niche book that would, you
know, please me and that nobodywould read.
But I now understand, havinghad that book out for God, I
don't know how many, I thinkit's been out about five years,
that book.
Um, and it's traveled a lot ofthe world.
It's very successful in Brazil,especially, which is a country
(16:51):
that's become very close to myheart because of that.
Um, but I think I realized thatthe the reason I wanted to tell
that story was because I feltlike that story hadn't been
told.
There were, there were a lot ofstories about the generation
that was on the front lines ofthe AIDS crisis.
So, you know, obviously theyget the majority of the
attention as they should,because they're the generation
(17:13):
that lost their whole communityand that fought back and that
did everything to keep mygeneration safe.
And then there's been a lot ofqueer representation about the
generation after mine, which isthe generation that came of age
when AIDS started to becometreatable and less scary and
they were living a more open,queer life.
But I realized there was thisreal gap in storytelling about
(17:34):
my generation.
Like we were the generationthat was coming into our teen
years, realizing our sexualitywhen AIDS was at its worst.
So we were the ones who weregetting all the messaging of
fear and stigma when we werevery young.
And it left such a huge impact.
And I think it made us made itvery hard to be vulnerable and
intimate because we all themessaging worked.
(17:57):
We were afraid and we wereafraid of intimacy.
We equated intimacy with death.
We didn't we all thought wewould die.
I mean, really, like all myfriends of my generation, we
always talk about this.
Like none of us imagined a lifepast 40.
We just grew up thinking to begay meant you died young.
That's and and what I realizedsince writing Like a Love Story
(18:17):
is a lot of people needed thisstory.
A lot of people felt like theirexperience of those years had
never been told.
And then you add the layer ofbeing Iranian and an immigrant,
like so many stories that I grewup with about that era of queer
life was so white.
I mean, it really focused onwhite Western lives, and there
never was anything that dealtwith that intersection.
(18:38):
I feel like I wanted to, youknow, that book has three
narrators who alternates Reza,who's Iranian, um, Judy, who's
white, and has an uncle who'sliving with AIDS and a picked-up
activist, and then Art, who'slike his school's only out gay
teen, but he also gets to bethat because he comes from a
very wealthy white Manhattanfamily, and even though his
(19:01):
family is not supportive, he'sgot like the the privilege of
being able to speak his mind ina way that Reza, as an Iranian,
doesn't.
I think a lot of people don'tunderstand necessarily the
psychology of being an outsiderand how it makes you unable to
shake, you don't, you don't evenunderstand the system.
How are you gonna shake it up?
You're just kind of like, whoam I in this system?
(19:21):
Which is how I often felt whenI was young.
Um, so it was for me, it wasjust it's a very it's a sad
book, but it's also a joyfulbook.
Like I wrote, I cried a lotwhen I wrote it, but I also
laughed a lot and I filled it.
The big surprise of writing thebook for me was that I knew it
would be sad.
How could it not be when it'sabout the AIDS crisis?
(19:42):
What I wasn't prepared for ishow full it would be of like
music and fashion and friendshipand dancing.
And so much of my research, Iwould talk to ACTUP members and
they would tell me, like, yes,we were devastated, we were
losing our community, we werefighting all day, but then we
were dancing all night, we wereflirting, we were laughing.
Like those things coexist.
And I also want young readerswho are going through their own
(20:03):
difficult times right now.
I mean, you guys and your thisgeneration has gone through so
much already between COVID andclimate and fascism and God
knows what else is to come.
But just to remind youngpeople, we have grown up in
times of great crisis before,and we still found ways to
celebrate, dance, have fun,laugh, and that that's okay.
You're not a bad person forhaving a good time when
(20:27):
suffering is happening.
That's just the humanexperience.
And yeah, it's a really specialbook for me, and I'm so happy
that it resonated for others andreally opened the door for
every book that came after.
Because if it weren't, if thatbook hadn't been as well
received, I don't know if Iwould have dug as deep since
then.
I feel like every book I'vewritten is in some way ripping
(20:49):
out from my experience and mycore in a different way.
I'm not just telling storiesbased on plot.
I'm like excavating storiesbased on personal.
Hollyn (20:57):
What lore do I have that I can--
Abdi (21:00):
Absolutely. I always now I begin my books.
I don't begin with I never,like I said, I don't plot out my
books, but I do begin with likea big question or piece of my
life that I'm like, this issomething I've yet to completely
make sense of or a question ofterms with.
Exactly.
Yes.
Is that sort of how you feelabout like The Chandler
(21:22):
Legacies?
Yes.
I mean, Chandler, I went toboarding school in the 90s,
which was, in my opinion, re areally good time to be young.
I was very, very lucky.
Um and the majority of myboarding school experience was
very positive, except for thefirst year.
Hollyn (21:37):
Oh, really?
Abdi (21:38):
Yes, the first year of boarding school was immensely
difficult for me.
I was really out of place.
I did not I didn't feel like Iwas even the same age as
everyone because I grew up muchmore sheltered than a lot of
these kids.
These were kids, you know, Ifeel like in that era, American
kids, especially kids of greatprivilege, like the boarding
school mostly attracted, behavedlike adults.
(22:01):
I was still a very shelteredkid.
And so there was a lot ofbullying, there was a lot of
hazing.
Um, the hazing scenes thatRamin goes through in the book
are completely plucked from myexperience.
And if anything, they're toneddown.
I mean, because a lot of whathappened, I think like would be
too much for a YA book.
Um and but I think for me, thebiggest thing I was grappling
(22:24):
with in that book was thequestion of how can I make peace
with this institution that hurtme in such horrible ways and
hurt so many of my friendsbecause there was this culture
of both
Bullying and hazing.
Bullying and hazing, but also of sexual abuse from
teachers to students.
And so I was trying to makesense of how do I make peace
with the hurt this place caused,with the fact that this
(22:45):
institution also gave me all mybest friends, the teacher that
changed my life, the educationand mentorship to make all my
dreams come true, you know, thesense of community I got like it
really is a confusing thing.
And I think there's an instinctin the world these days to make
everything very black and whiteand right and wrong.
And I really feel like ifanything, all my to me, the
(23:07):
through line of all my books isfighting against that and trying
to build bridges and nuance,because I don't believe that you
can say, like people will sayabout an institution like that,
like, oh, just burn it down.
But it's like, but then whatabout all the good it did?
What about the fact that Iwould never have met my friends
and my mentor and discovered mycreativity?
Were it not like, yes, ofcourse, I wish I hadn't gone
(23:28):
through the horrible stuff, butthe good stuff also happened.
And so the book is to me, it'sa balancing of that, an
exploration of that culture ofabuse with a story of true
friends who meet because of thisschool, who discover their
power because of what the schoolgives them.
And it's try it's an attempt,maybe unsuccessful for some, but
(23:50):
successful for you.
Um but it's an attempt toreconcile all the places in the
world that do both good and badthings.
Hollyn (24:00):
Right.
Because I think a lot ofpeople-- I agree with you, a lot
of people in my generation arelike, this is bad, this is good,
and there's no in-betweenwhatsoever.
And if you say something that'sdifferent than my opinion,
you're wrong, and I'm not evengonna like listen to you.
And I feel like that's just nota great way to approach life,
because that's not how lifeworks.
Abdi (24:21):
I agree.
I mean, I go through this.
This is to me very much what mynext book, Only This Beautiful
Moment, like when I tell when Iask when people ask me what
that's about, because that bookis about an intergenerational
story of an Iranian family.
You're focusing on the threemen in the family, grandfather,
father, son, and two of them arequeer, and one of them is still
somewhat homophobic, and youget into all of their points of
(24:44):
view.
But that book very much wasborn out of a desire I had to
speak to people who alwayswanted to divide like my
experience as a queer personfrom my family and my culture,
because I didn't grow up withlike a culture and a family that
immediately embraced me when Icame out.
It was a struggle, and thatdoesn't mean I didn't love them
or didn't have empathy for wherethey were coming from.
(25:06):
But so many Western people werejust like exactly what you're
saying.
It's like, cut them out of yourlife.
You can't talk to them becausethey don't accept you.
And I'm like, wait, I don'tunderstand.
You're suggesting I cut allthese people out of my life.
They're my family and mycommunity.
Like, so I, you know, there issomething happening right now.
And I I mean, I mostly blamesocial media, but maybe there's
(25:30):
a lot of other factors that I'mnot seeing.
But yeah, you know, we I've hadso many conversations recently
with people who are just like, Idon't talk to my aunt because
she voted for X, or I don't gohome anymore because we don't
agree on this issue.
And I'm like, well, but if allof us stop talking to our
mothers and fathers and auntsand uncles because they don't
agree with us, what do we haveleft?
(25:53):
What's the fabric of oursociety?
And I'm not saying that weshouldn't stand up.
Like I had so manyuncomfortable conversations
within my community.
I still do.
I feel like I've done so muchto try and better conversations
around queerness in the Iraniancommunity and we're seeing the
results.
Not that I take all the credit,but I take some credit because
(26:14):
I put myself out there.
Um, but I I just don't believein closing the doors of
communication.
I feel like nothing good'sgonna come from that in the long
run, other than making peoplefeel good in the short term, you
know.
Then it's like, I did this thing and now I feel empowered.
Well, and you feel right and you feel like someone else
is wrong.
Hollyn (26:31):
Yeah.
Abdi (26:32):
But the thing is, is the person like why is the why is
the person wrong?
Like that's what I wanted to doin Only This Beautiful Moment
with the Said character who youknow, you first meet him as a
father who is somewhathomophobic.
I mean, not aggressively so,but very similar to the way I
experience homophobia in myculture.
It's more one of denial andsilence and compartmentalization
of like, I accept you, justdon't talk to me about it.
Hollyn (26:54):
It's kind of like the people that are like, I support
you, but not the lifestyle.
Abdi (26:57):
Exactly, exactly.
But then you go back to the1970s and you understand what he
went through as a teenager,what he lost, the love he lost,
the country he lost, the thingshe fought for.
And hopefully, readers willunderstand that you can't boil
someone down to their one worstquality or one best quality.
(27:19):
You have to get to know them.
And I always tell young people,and that's why I love readers.
Like when I meet people likeyou who are young and read
voraciously, I'm like, thankGod.
Because you have to be curious.
Like, yeah, if someone doessomething or says something that
that puts you on your guard orupsets you, like the right
response is not always to cutthat person out.
Sometimes the right response isto be like, why?
(27:40):
Ask them questions, get to knowwhy they became that way.
Hollyn (27:43):
Kind of like dig deep into that discomfort.
Abdi (27:46):
Well, and offer them-- I think we all want empathy and
curiosity.
So offer it to someone else.
And if you offer, I mean, thatwas one of the big revelations
of my life.
I was always like, oh, myparents don't accept me enough,
or my community doesn't acceptme enough.
And I'm like, well, when have Iasked them questions of their
experience?
Like, yeah, model the behavioryou want others to give you.
(28:06):
It doesn't, it's not alwaysgoing to work.
The world's not gonna be rosyif we all do that, but it'll be
a little bit.
Hollyn (28:13):
A little bit.
I'm like, you know, we'll havepaved the way for someone else
at least.
One hopes.
A little bit.
Abdi (28:18):
One hopes, yeah.
Hollyn (28:19):
So who do you think was the most difficult character for
you to write in Only ThisBeautiful Moment?
Like which of the threeprotagonists?
Abdi (28:25):
I mean, definitely Said.
Oh, yeah, for sure.
Because he's so like I said,he's the the other two
characters are queer and it waseasier to write them for that
reason.
Said is very outside my ownexperience.
Um and I wanted to write himwith a lot of passion.
Like I I I wanted to make surepeople understood that he also
(28:48):
had a broken heart and also hadall these dreams, but he was
still able to be this imperfectfather despite that.
And I mean, I hope I succeeded.
It was hard.
I'm very that's the book I'mproudest of, to be honest,
because it was to me the mostambitious and also the most
personal.
It's the one that really like Ihad to dig very, very deep both
(29:09):
into my own psyche and issueswith generational trauma and
immigration and queerness, andalso it required the most
difficult research because likewith like a love story, it's
very easy to find information onACTUP, it's well documented.
But Iran, unfortunately,doesn't have freedom of
expression or freedom of thepress.
(29:30):
Especially when researchingqueer life in Iran, there there
are no sources, so my sourceswere friends, cousins.
Like I would have to get peopleto talk to me, trust me, tell
me the history.
And so both for thecontemporary Iran that I wrote
and for Iran in the 70s, which Iwrote, I had to really gather
first hand accounts and then usethat to guide the story.
(29:52):
But it was so fun.
Hollyn (29:54):
Because the three characters were very, very
different.
I've read books where theauthors have kind of made the
characters a cut and paste sortof thing.
And that was not the case atall with any of your books, but
especially in Only ThisBeautiful Moment.
Abdi (30:09):
The beauty of writing books for me, who comes from a
screenwriting background, iswhen you write anything for film
or TV.
Hollyn (30:15):
Yeah.
Abdi (30:15):
A little piece of you is going to have to think about
things like budget.
And like you can't, it's noteasy in a movie or a TV show be
like, and now we're going to the1930s in Hollywood and we're on
the MGM lot.
And in a book, it doesn'tmatter.
Like you can be wherever youwant, however you want.
You can go as wide in scope asyou want.
Um, and so with this one, Ijust loved being able to travel
(30:36):
back and forth and show, youknow, that book is all about
contrast.
It's all about like, well, whatwas life like in US versus Iran
in different times and what andalso the contrast of
generations.
Like Bobby is a queer characterwho is in his teen years in the
1930s.
So he's obviously gonna have adifferent experience as Moud
who's come of a coming of age asa queer teen.
Hollyn (30:58):
I just want to give Bobby a hug.
Abdi (30:59):
Oh, I love Bobby.
Hollyn (31:01):
I know and like he went through so much.
Abdi (31:04):
He did, but he ends up having a happy life, I think.
I think and it doesn't looklike the life.
That was another thing.
I I deal with a lot.
It's hard.
I mean, being um being someonefrom a culture that's very
misunderstood in America is veryhard.
And I feel like this book wasalso my way of saying there are
other ways of existing, thereare other ways of being queer.
(31:27):
There are countries wherepeople may not be, they may not
identify as queer, they may notbe publicly queer, they may not
engage in the same rituals ofqueer community that we do, but
they still have a life and theystill have a community.
Um, and I deal with that all.
I mean, now I'm dealing withit, just with there's so much
(31:47):
happening in the world, and Ifeel like I hear so many
ignorant things about thehistory of like the relationship
between the US and the MiddleEast, and so the book is also a
way for me, hopefully in a veryemotional way, because I don't
want to preach to people, andI'm not a historian, I'm not a
nonfiction writer, but it was myway of just reminding people,
because nobody knows in thiscountry that the US ended
(32:10):
democracy in Iran.
It was the CIA, it was thefirst time they staged a coup,
actually.
The CIA was formed.
And then the first coup wasIran.
In the 1950s, there was ademocratically elected leader
who wanted to nationalize theoil, and at that point, the oil
was being taken by the Brits ofthe US, and so they got rid of
him and they put a monarchy init.
And so every time I hear peopletalk about like democracy,
(32:32):
democracy, and the West justwants democracy, and there's no
democracy in the Middle East.
I'm like, yes, of coursethere's no democracy in the
Middle East.
You didn't want them.
You wanted the oil, and youcouldn't get the oil from
democratic leaders.
So but you know, it's and it'snot to say that like the book is
not at all about politics, andit's not about like trying to
make a statement about America,but it is about three
(32:56):
generations.
And I think when we talk aboutgenerations and we we talk about
like moving forward in theworld, we have to acknowledge
the wrongs of the past.
And we're seeing so many peoplestruggling with that right now,
whether it's like curriculumsand schools that are like
barring conversations aboutslavery or the Holocaust or the
(33:16):
real history of what's happenedin the Middle East.
I mean, these are these arejust facts.
So it's like we if we are notstarting with basic facts, how
are we going to find peace?
And so that to me is anotherthing.
When I was writing this book,I'm like, I just want a book
that helps people through thesecharacters understand people
from this region are carrying alot.
(33:37):
They're carrying decades ofconflict that are grounded in
the actions of this country.
Hollyn (33:43):
Speaking of the past, very, very sort of abrupt
transition point.
But you know, Kam in DesertEchoes also sort of has his own
battles with the past.
Uh, he goes to Joshua Treetwice in the book, first time
with his boyfriend Ash, and thesecond time to find closure, you
know, with his close walkinggroup about Ash's disappearance.
(34:05):
And you did mention in yourauthor's note that the character
of Ash was based on your firstboyfriend Damon.
And so I I'm wondering how didyou approach writing Ash
specifically?
And how do you generally writecharacters that are inspired by
different people in your life?
Abdi (34:21):
Oh, that's a good question.
Um so okay, first of all, Iwhen I say someone was inspired
by, I really do mean inspiredby.
Damon is very different thanAsh in so many crucial ways.
So, you know, when I when acharacter is inspired by someone
in my life or by some piece ofmy life, I feel like I take that
(34:46):
energy, the core of what theyrepresented to me, and I try to
then allow creativity to turnthem into something very
different.
So in in very important ways,Ash was like Damon.
Ash is an artist, although inAsh's case he's more of a visual
artist.
Damon was a musician.
Um, but the core of the kind ofrelationship Kam and Ash have
(35:06):
is very similar to the kind ofrelationship Damon and I had.
It was kind of young love, itwas very, you know, in the way
of young love.
It can be very passionate, verymad, very like you kind of are
not looking at things logicallybecause you're so caught up in
the magic of it that you're notthinking like, oh, when he
disappears to the desert tocreate, something's wrong.
(35:27):
You're just like, no, ofcourse.
That's that's what people do ifthey're creative.
They just disappear for a fewdays and don't call their
boyfriends, you know, like whichis something Ash does and
something Damon did.
And so that I think the, youknow, I grew up with no
awareness of addiction, mentalillness.
A lot of things we now knowabout, they were completely
(35:50):
completely hidden from me.
And so when I met Damon in myearly 20s, I wasn't looking for
signs of anything.
I just believed, I was so inlove with him, I believed
everything at face value.
And it wasn't until later Irealized he was struggling with
a lot.
And so I think a lot of whatthis book is about is about
Kam's journey of making peacewith not just losing his
(36:12):
boyfriend, but also making peacewith how could he have missed
all this?
What could he have done to savesomeone?
Because I think inevitably whenwe love someone that we lose,
we go through a period ofblaming ourselves and thinking,
well, what could I have donedifferently?
Why am I to blame?
Am I allowed to feel joy again?
Am I allowed to fall in loveagain?
(36:32):
Um, that's a lot of what that'sabout.
And we should talk about howDamon is peripherally connected
to your life, yeah.
Your mom, right?
So your mom and I first metbecause she was in Damon's show,
which was called Bare (36:44):
A Pop Opera.
Do you know Bare?
Hollyn (36:47):
I don't.
Abdi (36:48):
So there's gonna be a new production.
My this is so wild.
One of, I don't know if youknow who Michelle Mulroney is,
who's uh she's a great, greatwriter who's also on the board
of the WGA.
Her daughter, Stella, who I'venow watched grown up, who I
first met when she was like sixor seven.
Now she works at Yada, where mydaughter does musical theater.
And Stella started a littletheater, and their next show is
gonna be Bare.
So their theater is gonna puton Bare.
(37:09):
Isn't that wild that myfriend's kids we're at now at
the stage where like newproductions of Bare are being
staged by my friends' teenagechildren who started theaters.
But Bare, so I was taken toBare.
I don't even know if you knowthis story, if your mom knows
this story, but I was taken toBare by my friend Mark Russ, who
I met studying at the LeeStrasberg Institute for Acting
(37:30):
when we were teenagers, who Iadore.
I love Mark Russ.
Um, he took me there to set meup with his friend John
Hartmere, who co-wrote Bare withDamon.
The show is spectacular.
The show is a masterpiece.
It really is.
I bawled my eyes out.
I mean, this move this showmoved me so deeply.
I saw it so many times,obviously, because I dated
(37:51):
Damon, but um, it's a gay, kindof a gay Romeo and Juliet set in
a Catholic boarding school.
It's the music is stunning,it's it would rip your heart
out.
Um and then I was supposed tobe set up with John Hartmere,
and then I met Damon outside theshow.
And it was just one of thosethings where I looked in his
eye, and it was very much likeAsh and Kam.
Um, and much, you know, withinDesert Echoes Ash and Kam bond
(38:14):
over the their love for Lana DelRey.
That's how they first meet, isthat they write the same Lana
song.
But for me and Damon, it was itwas music, just different
musicians because Lana wasn'tmaking music yet.
But we realized when we metthat we both had the same Kate
Bush CD in our car, and that wasone of the first things that we
were like, what?
You know, because it just feelslike this instant thing.
Because back then also KateBush, I know she went viral
because of Stranger Things withRunning Up that Hill.
(38:36):
But back in our day in America,Kate Bush was a very niche
artist.
So to have the same Kate BushCD in your car was an odd thing.
And and then we realized wewere both obsessed with Tori
Amos after our first date, andthen she became this huge part
of our courtship.
And so, music, the way thatlike art brings people together
and makes them feel like theyunderstand some secret part of
(38:58):
each other was very, very realum for me and Damon.
And that that is something Iwanted to put in the
relationship as well.
I think if people read like thedescriptions of my books,
they're gonna think every singleone is deeply depressing.
But they're really not.
Hollyn (39:13):
They're not.
Abdi (39:14):
They're not.
And I am generally a hopefulperson.
I'm an open-eyed person and aclear-eyed person who wants to
look at the harder parts of lifebecause I think if you try to
bury them, they're gonna comeback and they're gonna like you.
Yes.
But but I also feel like thecharacters in my books tend to
find joy and hope and love andlike in their deepest, darkest
(39:34):
moods.
Absolutely.
Yeah, absolutely, which is whatlife is, and we should all we
should all, I think, be betteroff accept at accepting that
that is the nature of life, thatthere will always be darkness
and there will always be light,and we cannot control when the
darkness and the light alwayscomes.
We can sometimes add to it,yeah, but but we have to accept
(39:59):
it when it comes and we shouldnever feel guilty about the
darkness and never feel like wedon't deserve the light.
Hollyn (40:06):
I'd also love to ask a few more questions about you
know your process, philosophy,and vision as you know, a
creator.
Um, let's start with in all ofyour books, what has been your
favorite character to write anddevelop?
Abdi (40:19):
Oh my God.
I can't, I really don't know ifI can answer that question.
Um, my favorite character towrite and develop.
I don't know that I have one.
I mean, I do feel the closestemotionally to Only This
Beautiful Moment.
I do think that one.
I mean.
Hollyn (40:35):
You're like, thinking...
Abdi (40:37):
I really can't.
I don't know if I can.
I mean, maybe Bobby, because Ilove that you get to see him as
a teenager and then you get tosee him as a very old man, as a
grandfather.
And there's something I'mobsessed with time.
I've always been obsessed.
I've always been one of thosepeople who's like stuck in time.
I'm always researching somehistorical period.
Um even as a kid, I would belistening to like music from the
(40:57):
30s and watching movies fromthe 40s.
And, you know, I just so to meto get a to write a character
that you see at multiple pointsin time is a very powerful and
wonderful thing.
Hollyn (41:08):
What do you enjoy the most about incorporating music
icons into some of your work,like Madonna and Like a Love
Story and Lana Del Rey andDesert Echoes?
Abdi (41:17):
I you know, I guess it started with Madonna, like with
Like a Love Story.
I didn't realize how big of apart she would end up playing in
the book.
But when I was excavating myown emotional life from that
era, it became so abundantlyclear how important she was to
me and to the whole generation.
(41:39):
Like I, you know, young peoplehave their own opinions of
Madonna based on whatever'shappening, you know, in the
world.
But what I what I hope youngpeople take away from from that
book is that in the 80s and 90s,when the AIDS crisis was
happening, the gay community wasvilified.
They were stigmatized.
We were not the president ofthe United States at the time,
(42:01):
Ronald Reagan, didn't even saythe word AIDS for four years.
So, I mean, right now, as we dothis interview, we are four
years into the COVID pandemic.
It would be as if no USpresident had even said the
word, let alone started apolicy.
Just done nothing, just letpeople die.
So, and there were nocelebrities.
I mean, there were somecelebrities who were many of
whom were older, like ElizabethTaylor, whose careers were
(42:23):
generally behind them, who werestanding up.
And Elizabeth Taylor was a hugeinspiration in.
I do write about her in like alove story as well.
But Madonna was the biggeststar for young people.
I mean, her audience heraudience were like 10, 12, 13,
14.
When she released her Like aPrayer album, I was 13 years
(42:44):
old, and inside there was aleaflet about safe sex and
about, you know, AIDS andfighting the stigma.
Yeah.
That was not being taught to myage group at the time.
I mean, were it not forMadonna, a whole generation, I
was not taught that, like by myfamily or by school, because you
couldn't even talk about gaysex, you know?
Um when Truth or Dare and theVogue video in that whole era,
(43:05):
which was when the book takesplace in 1989 and 1990 came out,
it was the first time that Isaw any image of gay men that
wasn't rooted in their death ortheir stigmatization.
I mean, she presented all thesebrown and black men, men of
color, as her friends, as herdancers, as her family.
She made a whole movie whereshe shone a spotlight on them.
(43:25):
In the movie, there was thefirst gay pride parade I ever
saw, the first gay kiss I eversaw.
You talk to almost every gayman of my generation and say the
same thing.
That was the first gay kissthey saw, the first pride parade
they saw.
Before that, it was just like,you're gonna die and you're
horrible.
And then Madonna came and shetook a lot of really big risks.
And I sometimes get a littledefensive when it comes to her
(43:46):
because people love to say thatshe like exploited the gay
community or stole from the gaycommunity because, of course,
the work she did became sopopular.
But actually, she really riskedquite a lot.
And she did so much in terms ofsupporting the charities,
showing up.
So, you know, for me, that thatwas a very organic thing.
(44:06):
Once I start to write about ActUp, about the activists, the
artists who are helping, I'mlike, how could I not write
about Madonna?
Like it's it it would be a hugeum gap in the in the history.
Then, you know, with Lana, itwas a little different.
Like this book is not about inthis book, Lana is not treated
in the same way as Madonna, youknow.
(44:28):
But to me, Lana is like theartist of the last decade or so
or 15 years of my life.
She really is the artist Ilisten to the most.
She means a lot to me.
She opened a lot of likeemotional avenues for me to
explore through her lyrics andsongwriting.
And when I was writing thisbook, I really wanted that, like
I said, that relationship tomirror the kind of relationship
(44:50):
I have with Damon.
And because music was soimportant to us, and it for us,
it was Tori, really.
But I was like, who is today'sTori?
And it really is Lana.
Um and so I wanted to show thepower of art to bring people
together.
Hollyn (45:04):
And what do you hope your audience takes away from
your work?
Abdi (45:09):
Oh God.
Hollyn (45:10):
I feel like we've sort of talked about this throughout.
Abdi (45:12):
Yeah, I really hope that I hope, and I think my books do
this.
I just hope the audience takesaway from my work that they need
to be more open to newconversations, uncomfortable
conversations, that when you'retalking about the arts, it's a
space to get beyond right andwrong.
(45:33):
When we write a book, we're notwriting it to make one person
right and one person wrong.
We're writing it to delve intothe entire nuance of the human
experience and hopefully makeeveryone equally right and
wrong, or equally not right andnot wrong.
Right.
But to present a way to havedifficult conversations that
aren't about pointing fingersand blame and division.
(45:56):
I really do get frightened byhow divided people are these
days.
Hollyn (46:01):
Um and how people like blame each other just because
you know they don'tshare the exact--
And people don't want to have conversations. They don't want to sit down and have really difficult conversations. And so I hope that what my books help readers get to as they grow up is seeing the value in--
Nuance.
Abdi (46:19):
Yes.
Hollyn (46:20):
And let's do some fun lightning round questions.
So it's like icebreaker style,like quick question, quick
answer.
What's your favorite non-curseword insult?
Abdi (46:29):
I mean, is deranged an insult?
It kind of is.
I mean, I use deranged as acompliment, but I love it.
Hollyn (46:34):
I love being called deranged because people are
like, she's weird.
And I'm like, I'll take that.
Abdi (46:39):
Same.
I'm always like when peoplecall me weird, I'm like, yes,
thank you.
Would you want to be boring andnormal?
What's yours?
Hollyn (46:45):
I use stinky as a noun.
So I'll be like, you stinky.
And then that'll be
Abdi (46:51):
I like stinky.
Hollyn (46:51):
What's your favorite Lana Del Ray song?
Abdi (46:54):
Oh god, it's so hard.
It's genuinely so hard to pickone Lana Del Ray song.
Um I go back and forth all thetime on what my favorite.
Hollyn (47:05):
Well, what about right now?
Abdi (47:08):
The song that I listen to a lot right now is How to
Disappear from NormanF--- Rockwell.
I really love that.
What's yours?
Hollyn (47:16):
Sweet.
Abdi (47:17):
I love sweet.
I love sweet.
That's one of my that's one ofmy top three from the new album.
Hollyn (47:22):
Pineapple on pizza, yes or no?
Abdi (47:25):
No.
Hard pass.
You like it?
Hollyn (47:27):
Well, it's okay.
It's okay.
It's okay.
It's not my go-to, but if it'sthere.
Abdi (47:36):
No, I don't want it anywhere near me.
Hollyn (47:37):
I will.
I mean, if there's otheroptions, I will skip it.
But if it's like
Abdi (47:41):
Do you want to hear something even more
controversial?
Hollyn (47:44):
What?
Abdi (47:45):
I don't like pizza toppings.
I like a margherita.
Hollyn (47:48):
I like margherita.
Abdi (47:48):
I like basil, and that's it.
Hollyn (47:50):
What about mushrooms?
Abdi (47:52):
No.
Well, mushrooms I don't mind.
I don't mind mushrooms, but forthe most part, if you're
ordering pizza with me, I willalways order margherita.
Hollyn (47:59):
I mean, I love margherita, but like seriously?
That's insane.
Abdi (48:04):
Yeah.
Hollyn (48:05):
Are you okay?
Abdi (48:06):
Um, no. [laughter] Is anyone?
Hollyn (48:13):
Um, that's a great, great, great question that we
should do another... [laughter]Um, so do you like the middle
brownie piece or the edgebrownie piece?
Abdi (48:24):
Oh god, now you're really gonna ask if I'm okay.
Hollyn (48:27):
Yeah.
Abdi (48:27):
I hate brownies.
Hollyn (48:28):
How??
Abdi (48:34):
No, I know.
Our daughter is a baker.
She has discovered the thingsthat I like when it comes to
bake because I like like a plainscone.
Hollyn (48:43):
That's so British.
Abdi (48:45):
I'm very British.
I'm obsessed with the UK.
I swear in a past life, I wasmy next book is gonna have a
lot.
It's gonna be my like, I alwayssaid I start from a place of
like these are the things Ilove, and it's gonna have a lot
of London.
But yeah, I don't likebrownies.
I'm sorry.
What about you?
What was the question?
Middle or side?
Hollyn (49:01):
Middle or edge.
Abdi (49:02):
I reject them both.
Which one do you like?
Hollyn (49:04):
I don't know.
It depends on the day.
So sometimes if I want like acrispier outside and a softer
inside, I'll take the edge.
But sometimes I just wantbrownie.
And you know, you see whatyou're like, you're--
Abdi (49:16):
But wouldn't you rather go have brownies with someone like
me who's gonna just give you mypiece?
Yes!
I also don't like donuts, most cookies, the majority of
cake.
But I love sweets.
I'm like a obsessed withsweets.
I love ice cream.
Hollyn (49:29):
I I how how...
Okay, so we're gonna go deepnow.
Are you ready?
Abdi (49:36):
Oh, I'm ready.
Hollyn (49:37):
So if you could give one piece of advice to your younger
self, what would it be?
Abdi (49:43):
Honestly, I think the advice would be not to care so
much what other people think.
That was the that was the thingthat stopped me for so long.
I think all the things I did inmy life, like writing, you
know, all the stuff you askedabout earlier, writing these
books, putting myself on thepage as a queer Iranian.
I'm so happy I did it.
I'm so happy I got to the pointto do it.
(50:03):
The reason I didn't do itsooner was the fear of what
other people think.
And I think when we're young,we care so much about that.
And but I will say for anyyoung listener, and hopefully
there'll be lots of younglisteners, I also very much
believe adults can't tell younot to make your own mistakes.
(50:24):
You have to make your ownmistakes, you know.
Like it's all part of thejourney.
And so, yes, you can alwayslook back and say, Oh, I wish
I'd done X or not cared about Y.
But part of being young islearning by by messing up.
And I think that that's soimportant to remember.
Never strive for perfection.
That's not the goal ever.
The goal is growth.
Hollyn (50:45):
Yeah.
Wow, that that was deep.
You are a very deep person,Abdi.
Abdi (50:51):
Am I?
I mean, I don't know.
Hollyn (50:53):
I mean, I mean...
Abdi (50:54):
I can be very silly.
Hollyn (50:56):
You can be very silly.
I mean, it I think it's verysilly that you don't like the
brownies, but that's a separateconversation.
Abdi (51:02):
But I love ice cream.
Hollyn (51:03):
I agree.
My brother actually doesn'tlike ice cream.
Abdi (51:06):
Okay, see that, and you're concerned about my mental
health 'cause of brownies?
Go take care of your brother.
Hollyn (51:11):
Yeah.
Um, so before we wrap up, Iwanted to ask if there was a
particular cause or organizationthat's you know near and dear
to your heart.
Um, as you may know, StoriesWithout Borders really strives
to um amplify organizations thatyou know use the power of
stories and service topositively impact the world.
So, you know, we'd love to, youknow, amplify anything that you
(51:33):
care about because you knowyou're such an awesome person,
even though you have very wrongopinions about brownies.
Abdi (51:40):
Oh my God, I'm gonna crack up.
Um, there's so manyorganizations I could talk
about.
I mean, obviously, with Like aLove Story, which focuses on
AIDS, you know, I I hopeeveryone who's young, I know
this is not taught still, butunderstands that HIV is not
over.
Yes, it's more treatable, butthere's still quite a lot of
cases, even in the UnitedStates, and it's mostly young
(52:02):
people.
So any organization that'sworking on outreach and
education, you know, like AMFARor AIDS Project Los Angeles, I
mean, there's so many.
But the one I guess I'll shoutout for real because I shout it
out in Desert Echoes at the end.
It's a bit the that book reallytouches on addiction.
I really do believe often likethe organizations we should
shine a light on are smaller,more local.
(52:24):
Um, my husband's on the boardof a recovery home called
Awakening Recovery out here.
Um, it's a really differentmodel.
It's like a sober livingfacility, it's a longer-term
care facility, and the resultsreally speak for themselves.
Um, so everyone should look upAwakening Recovery.
They take donations.
(52:44):
Um, I think unfortunately, wehave seen in the United States,
and I would guess across theworld because of the way the
economy works, that they havecut a lot of funding for
addiction services, mentalhealth services, a lot of the
services people need when theyneed help with their recovery.
And so it's so important tofill those gaps.
Hollyn (53:05):
Yeah.
That's amazing.
And that sounds like a reallyawesome organization.
Abdi (53:11):
Yeah, it is.
Hollyn (53:11):
Thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
Abdi (53:13):
Oh my god, thank you for having me.
Hollyn (53:14):
I had so much fun.
Abdi (53:15):
This was a blast.
Hollyn (53:16):
I had a blast as well.
Abdi (53:18):
Thank you.
I'm glad there were no browniesin front of us.
Hollyn (53:22):
Thanks for listening to Stories Without Borders the
Podcast.
Please rate and review the showon your favorite podcast
platform.
You can learn more online atstorieswithout borders.org or
follow us on Instagram atstories underscore without
borders.
And if you likewatching your podcasts,
subscribe to our YouTube channelat Stories underscore
(53:42):
Without Borders theStories Without Borders the Podcast is written, hosted and produced by me, Hollyn Alpert. I also wrote and performed the theme music.
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