What if a 13-year-old trained an AI on fairy tales—and the world learned back? Hollyn sits down with New York Times bestselling author and filmmaker Abigail Hing Wen for our first live taping at Annabelle's Book Club LA to unpack The Vale, Abigail's middle grade debut about a boy who builds an AI-generated realm and then has to save it when reality starts to glitch. From dual timelines and lyrical lore to concrete tech metaphors, Abigail shows how story can make complex ideas feel simple, vivid, and urgent.
We explore the craft behind weaving two narratives—the grounded voice of Bran in the real world and the elevated whimsy of the Book of Elf—plus the Easter eggs that bridge them: recurring motifs, mirrored characters, even accent choices in the audiobook. Abigail shares why she coined “clean AI,” training models on public-domain works and family-made art to seed ethics into the plot itself. You’ll hear how a carnation-in-colored-water metaphor turns data provenance into something kids can see and feel, and why middle grade gives her the space to make kids the heroes without losing emotional depth.
The conversation jumps from page to screen: writing and directing The Vale: Origins as a live action–animation hybrid, the puzzle of designing seamless transitions between worlds, and the lessons she carried over from executive producing Love in Taipei during pandemic lockdowns. We talk about adaptation tradeoffs, diverging endings, and how hundreds of collaborators inevitably shape a movie’s identity—while the books keep telling the longer story. Along the way, Abigail offers grounded advice for aspiring authors and creators on finding your singular perspective, building community, and choosing the right medium for your message.
If stories shape the tools we build, then this is a guide to building better ones. Listen, share with a friend who loves AI or fantasy, and leave a review so more curious minds can find us.
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Instagram: @Stories_WithoutBorders
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Hollyn (00:04):
Welcome to Stories Without Borders, the podcast.
I'm your host, Hollyn.
Here we interview people whouse the power of stories and
service to promote connection,empathy, and understanding
around the world.
You can learn more online atstorieswithoutborders.org or
follow us on Instagram andYouTube at Stories_ Without
Borders.
Thanks for listening.
Here's today's episode.
(00:25):
Hi everybody.
Thank you all so much forcoming to the very first live
taping of Stories WithoutBorders, the podcast.
It means so much to me that youguys are all here.
Before I introduce my lovelyguest, I'd love to give you all
just a little bit more contextand information about my
organization, Stories WithoutBorders.
So, Stories Without Borders, Ifounded it in 2023, and it's a
(00:49):
student-led organization thatuses the power of stories and
service to promote connection,empathy, and understanding
around the world.
And we've done a lot of serviceprojects, including supporting
fire relief in Altadena.
We've worked with kids, refugeeand migrant children in Tijuana
to cultivate a love oflearning.
And we've also providedenvironmentally focused
(01:10):
curriculum to foster youth inTaipei.
And a lot of these serviceprojects are inspired by
real-life stories like books,movies, etc.
And we take the content that'sin the stories and we apply it
into our service projects.
And that's how using the powerof stories comes into the
service projects.
And so this offshoot, thispodcast is the branch off of the
(01:30):
Stories Not Bordersorganization, where I interview
lovely authors, artists,activists, entrepreneurs, people
who use the power of storiesand service to promote
connection, empathy, andunderstanding around the world.
And what better guest to speakwith today than New York Times
best-selling author, filmmaker,and tech leader Abigail
Hing Wen.
(01:51):
Some of you here may knowAbigail from her New York Times
best-selling trilogy, theLoveboat Taipei series.
She also wrote and produced theParamount Plus adaptation,
Love in Taipei, which starsAshley Liao from The Hunger
Games franchise and Ross Butlerfrom Shazam.
Her fourth novel, Kisses,Codes, and Conspiracies, is a
(02:14):
national bestseller and anAmazon editor's pick.
Her fifth novel, The Vale, isher debut middle grade novel,
which is super exciting.
And she also wrote and directedthe short film The Vale:
Origins, which is a prequel toThe Vale.
So thank you so much, Abigail.
I'm so excited to be able tocelebrate your debut in the
(02:34):
middle grade world and also justthis film and just to be here
and talk about your work.
Abigail (02:39):
Oh wow.
And, you know, a fun fact, weactually did a little interview
together in secret while I wasfilming The Vale: Origins.
Hollyn (02:56):
She was my very first podcast guest, which is released
today.
So go check it out after thisevent.
So why don't we get started?
I'm just gonna give you guys alittle information about The
Vale.
So The Vale is about13-year-old Bran Lee, who has
spent the majority of his lifecreating and developing this
AI-generated world.
(03:16):
And he loves spending time inthe Vale.
He's created friends and questsand things for him to do.
And this Vale is sort of anescape for him from the real
world where his parents arestruggling financially.
And he tries to spend as muchtime in the Vale to not have to
interact with the real world andthe problems in the real world.
(03:37):
But then slowly weird thingsstart happening in the Vale.
Like the sunlight is weird,there's things that go missing.
And so Bran has to work againstthe clock to fix the Vale
before it's too late.
So I'd love to know what wasthe inspiration behind the Vale?
Abigail (03:52):
I actually wrote The Vale in 2015, so 10 years ago.
It was my creative thesis in myMFA program at Vermont College
of Fine Arts.
And I was working at the sametime in tech.
I was working in the heart ofthe AI revolution in Silicon
Valley, and I saw this reallypowerful technology that was
just seeping into all aspects ofour lives, and nobody knew
(04:12):
about it, nobody outside thevalley.
I remember there was one year Iwas working in Venture Capital,
and there were 2,000 AIstartups that year pumping this
technology into the world.
And it's a multi-usetechnology, so um, something
that seems as innocuous as likelip reading technology that's
used for the hearing impairedcould be weaponized so I can
hear what you guys arewhispering about at the very
(04:32):
back of this room.
And there was no one thinkingabout this from an ethics or
safety standpoint.
And so I was a lawyer in thatspace, and then eventually I
moved into our AI productsgroup.
But I wanted to democratizeaccess, I wanted to democratize
information about the technologyin a way that was accessible
and fun and engaging.
And the Vale sort of just cametogether partly because it's a
(04:52):
lot of things I love.
It's a family story, so it's afamily that's struggling
together, that's creatingtogether and saving each other.
Um similar to like a wrinkle intime, which is one of my
favorites.
It's also a fantasy I loveNarnia.
Um I love there's so manyfantasy worlds that I love, and
so the idea of a kid that's ableto use these powerful
technologies and build his ownfantasy world was really
(05:15):
appealing to me.
And so that's really the partof the story.
Hollyn (05:17):
And The Vale, like I've said before, is your very first
middle grade book.
All of your books, the Loveboatseries, Kisses, Codes, and
Conspiracies, they've all beenYA books.
So what made you want to writea middle grade book?
Abigail (05:29):
So I actually think middle grade's my first love.
Hollyn (05:32):
Really?
Abigail (05:32):
My very first novel that I wrote, There's no
overnight success.
I wrote now, I think it's been18 years since I first started
writing that novel.
It was a middle grade fantasy,and I um that was when I
realized that there wassomething here.
I didn't even know I wascreative at that time.
But I had this idea for amiddle grade fantasy about a boy
with a sword who goes intoanother world through a portal,
very kind of derivative.
But um, the world is cool, andmy agent today actually still
(05:55):
wants me to fix that story andput it out in the world.
But it was a middle grade, andI see pieces of it now in the
Vale today.
But I was even thinking backbecause I've gotten this
question a lot now, like, whydid you pivot from YA to middle
grade?
Like, well, actually, I firststarted writing middle grade,
and on my honeymoon, I broughtthe Chronicles of Narnia to read
to my husband who had neverread them.
So I think it just shows likeit's always just been in my DNA.
Hollyn (06:16):
And what were some of the similarities and differences
between writing YA and middlegrade?
Like, how does the processdiffer?
Abigail (06:22):
Yeah, I don't know that it's that different.
Um young adults well, actually,one of the things I don't love
about young adult is that rightnow it wants to be angsty, and I
don't necessarily want to likealways do that.
Um I think there's a place forit, and definitely in like the
Loveboat Taipei series, my girlis trying to figure out her
place in the world between Eastand West, and how does she
pursue her passions whilehonoring her family?
(06:44):
And and there is angst aroundthat, and and relationships and
romantic relationships andstuff.
But I feel like with middlegrade, there's a purity and
there can be adventure and thekids are heroes, which is I
think my favorite part.
I used to tell stories when Iwas little to my brother and
sister about worlds withoutadults where the kids are the
heroes, and I I love thatbecause I think kids are so
capable of many things.
(07:04):
Um, and if I'm able to helpthem believe in themselves a
little more, I think that'sthat's really all I want to
accomplish.
Hollyn (07:13):
That's beautiful.
And I feel like a lot of timeskids are underestimated.
I think even Bran in the book,he is underestimated time and
time again, and that's one ofthe challenges he has to
overcome, where his parentsunderestimate him, and later on
other figures in his lifeunderestimate him.
And one of the things I reallyenjoyed about The Vale, and I
thought was really unique, isthat there was almost two
(07:34):
different timelines.
It's a split point of view.
There's um one is Bran's pointof view, and the other is the
AI-generated um, the AI, hislittle AI friend that he made
called Gnomly.
And Brand's timeline takesplace partially in the real
world, partially in the veil,and Gnomly's timeline basically
just takes place in the Vale.
And so, what was the process ofcreating those two different
(07:55):
timelines and how did you mergethem together in a way that made
sense with the story?
Abigail (07:59):
Yeah, so it that it that was definitely one of the
hardest parts of writing thisbook.
Um it's a dual narrative, asyou mentioned.
It goes back and forth, notjust it's not a typical dual
narrative in the sense that itum it instead of just like two
different points of view everychapter, um, it goes back and
forth between the live-actionreal world and then the book of
e.l.f.
And the book of elf begins inGenesis and it ends in
(08:22):
Revelations, and so um, andthere's a little trick to it at
the end that um you you realizelater.
So I think it was thatinterweaving that was the
hardest part for me becausethere were two different
timelines and two differentstories, and the stories weren't
necessarily interconnected,right?
And so that was part of myexercise as I revised.
And I'm I'm a writer byrevision, like I don't actually
know how many drafts I've doneof the veil, but my Loveboat
(08:44):
Taipei book published at version31, and I think The Vale must
be more than that because it'sbeen 10 years that I've been
thinking about it.
I I did set it aside for manyyears while I wrote the other
novels, but I think figuring outhow the two worlds were going
to be linked was probably thefinal thing that I had to figure
out to really make the bookwork.
Um, and so there's there'sdragonflies, there are a lot of
(09:05):
Easter eggs that appearthroughout.
There's dragonflies that appearin both worlds, um, there are
analogues between thecharacters, and actually the fun
thing about working in thisbook with so many mediums is
that I get to like see differentdifferent artists will point
out different things.
So, for example, I justdirected the audiobook narration
with Matt Yang King, who isfabulous.
(09:27):
He's um been the voice forAvatar The Last Airbender and
Elemental, and he's so good withso many voices, and he um but
he had to ask me, like, oh, youknow, is this character like
this character?
And um, I don't want to spoilit all, but like Gnomly is a
little bit like Bran's analog,right?
Um, but there are otheranalogues, and so he actually
matched the voices, but one isin a British accent for the Book
(09:47):
of Elf, and the other in thereal world is in an American
accent, which is where our boylives.
Hollyn (09:51):
That's amazing.
And The Vale is a very techforward world, it's filled to
the brim with these intricatedescriptions and intricate uh
technologies of AI and even justrobots in general, which I
guess are technically AI.
And I know that you were a techleader and you are still a tech
leader, and so I'm wonderinghow did your experience in
working in Silicon Valleyinfluence your work?
(10:12):
Like how did you apply thatknowledge into this story?
Abigail (10:15):
So the last thing I did in Silicon Valley before I left
to do content creationfull-time was I actually hosted
the podcast for IntelCorporation.
It was their official podcaston AI, and my goal in
re-rebranding that podcast forthem was like very much the same
of democratizing access to thetechnologies.
So I think that that is kind ofmy secret weapon is I can take
the complicated technologies andmake analogies out of them.
(10:38):
So one of the analogies uh, andone of my hopes actually is for
my young readers and the youngat heart who read the book, um,
is that after you read the book,you will have an intuitive
understanding of how AIgeneration works just by living
it with Bran.
And the Vale itself is trainedon a corpus of books, you know,
in the way that I think mostpeople now are familiar with how
(10:58):
ChatGPT and these other umlarge language models have been
trained.
The Vale's been trained onbooks, but it's been trained in
a clean way.
So it's clean AI, it's a termI'm trying to coin with this
book.
It's trained on works that arenot in the copyright anymore.
So The Brothers Grimm, um AThousand One Arabian Nights, The
Magic Paint Brush, which is aChinese story where everything
you paint comes to life.
That's very much the Vale.
(11:19):
And there's an analogy in thebook that describes it like a
carnation drinking coloredwater.
The carnation turns the colorof the water that it's um
sitting in, and that's kind oflike the Vale, it's absorbing
and learning from all thesethings that have been inputted
into it, not just the stories,but also the drawings that the
Lee family have put into theveil, and then the interactions
with Bran himself.
(11:40):
For better or worse, um, Brandhas been training the Vale
personally for seven years byinteracting and playing in this
world.
Um, and so as you mentioned,part of his journey is learning
to not only live in the Vale.
Hollyn (11:52):
Yeah.
Bran's parents are always veryinvested in their work.
And how do you think that hasshaped Bran's sort of experience
with the real world and hissocial development?
Abigail (12:02):
Yeah, that's a great question.
Um, and I was I was tellingHollyn when we were in the green
room, like, the book's justcome out and I am on tour, so I
keep leaving every city, so Iactually never get to talk to
anyone who's read the book.
Um, but Hollyn read it a whileago, so this is a really
rewarding conversation for me.
Um one of the fun things aboutthe dynamic in the family is mom
and dad love each other somuch.
They're really close, they'resoulmates.
(12:23):
And um, because they're suchsoulmates, Bran actually feels a
little left out.
And not to I I do think that'sactually the right model for
like a family for the parents tohave a strong bond.
Um, but partly why Bran wants alittle brother so badly is so
that he has someone to relate toat his level, someone who can
understand what it is to be theparents of geniuses that are so
brilliant that can create thingslike the veil technology, but
(12:46):
are so absent-minded that theyforget to go to parent teacher
conferences or schedule playdates.
And so that's why he reallylongs for someone he can relate
to, and and he finds thatinitially in the veil.
For many years, that's right.
It's gnomely, it's his elves,it's this world that he's
building.
Hollyn (13:01):
How do the different characters symbolize different
aspects of Bran's life?
Like how what is the chief ofthe elves symbolize?
What is Gnomly's little sistersymbolize?
Abigail (13:10):
Oh gosh, I don't want to spoil anything.
Gnomly has a little sister, hername is Meimei, and that was
that was fun because that--
Hollyn (13:18):
Doesn't Meimei mean little sister in Chinese?
Abigail (13:19):
It does mean little sister in Chinese.
So that was partly, you know,like my way of Bran is is Wasian
kid, um, as you are.
Yes.
And and that's partly like, youknow, what does that mean that
he's a Wasian kid?
It means like he just bringsinputs from both all his
cultures.
So um, so there are things likethe magic paintbrush and that
his little sister in the Vale iscalled Meimei.
But uh the chief, there islike, I don't think it's a
(13:41):
spoiler to say the chief hassome qualities of Bran's father.
Yes.
Even though the chief is thefather of the love interest in
the veil.
Right.
Um, but there's something abouthim where he lacks confidence
to stand up against people thatare trying, you know, that are
opposing him.
And so I and I think that'strue for all art.
Our art reflects who we are,and for Bran, the veil is
(14:01):
Bran's.
So it reflects the world thathe knows and um and who he is.
Hollyn (14:06):
And speaking of the two different um varying
perspectives, how does thediction differ in the Book of
Elf and Bran's perspective?
Abigail (14:14):
So the Book of Elf is the idea is that it's like a
traditional old fantasy novel,and so there's a bit of like
more of a high language.
Yeah.
Um there's quirky language thatI keep getting feedback on this
one line.
This is a description of theVale that people keep saying I
should take it out, but I justcouldn't take it out.
So Gnomly waves to his fellowelves.
"They were always great fun intheir many colored smocks,
(14:35):
taunting the plants, which wereclever with their fingers and
toes but never went anywhere.
Their huts were scattered likewild mushrooms, their young ones
ran about without a stitch ofclothing, and the ambitious
goals of the chief rolled outeach morning, 'gather ye all
fruits of the forest,' he wouldroar from the square, always
went unmet by nightfall.
The elves had other games toplay, and the goal, to be
(14:56):
honest, was not achievable in aforest of a thousand acres.
This was the Vale." So um I didmodify that language, like it
was very like flowery at onepoint, and so I modified it to
make it plainer, but it's stillthere, and it's I think it still
confuses some people, but I Iwanted to keep it because I felt
like it captured the whimsy ofthis world.
Hollyn (15:16):
In addition to publishing and writing The Vale,
you also wrote and directed theshort film The Vale: Origins,
the prequel to The Vale.
What was it like directing afilm for the first time?
Abigail (15:27):
Oh, so it was such a wonderful fit that I never
expected.
And I think the best part ofdoing a film is that you have
this amazing community ofpeople.
And being a writer, being anauthor, it's just you and the
page, and then you've got youreditor, but it's it can be very
solitary.
And I love that filmmaking is ateam sport.
And then being a director, too,is it's hard to actually become
an expert at being a directorbecause you can't practice.
(15:49):
It's like you don't make thatmany movies, but you end up
becoming a lay person in a lotof other art mediums, and so you
know, getting to work on um theproduction design and then
working with our our DP oncameras, and then our animation
team, like thinking about allthe things that go into that.
Um, and then even with myillustrators for the novel, the
(16:09):
novel itself has 40illustrations, so I art directed
that, and then working with myaudiobook narrator, like so.
You end up exercising all thesedifferent muscles, um, and then
all has to come together intoone final product, and that I
think is like it's it's likenothing I've ever experienced.
And I remember Julie, I wasJulie's one of my executive
(16:30):
duties, so she's Ashley Liao'smom, who's my star for Love in
Taipei, and she's here.
Um, we were talking, andJulie's like, it's like an
addiction.
Like once you start doing it,you can't stop because it's just
it's incredible, it's sorewarding.
Hollyn (16:41):
Yeah, and the The Vale: Origins, it's a multimedia
format that transitions back andforth so smoothly.
And so, what was it like justincorporating the the live
action with the animation?
And and how'd you go from thereal world to the veil?
Like, how do those transitionswork?
Abigail (16:58):
Oh yeah, so that that was definitely part of the fun
of it.
And I'm sorry for those whohaven't, most of you haven't
seen it yet.
Um, we can't screen it publiclyyet because we are taking it
through the film festivalcircuit, but I we do have a
trailer that's partly releasedon Instagram, and I will be
releasing the trailer very soonon YouTube, so you'll get a
taste of it there at least.
But part of the reason why Iwanted to do the short was as a
proof of concept for what afeature-length film could be,
(17:20):
and um, you know, even my ownagents were scared, like, oh,
that's going to be a veryexpensive film because it's not
just animation, but the SiliconValley piece is expensive.
But for me, like building theSilicon Valley part was free
because I just sourced materialsfrom everyone I knew in the
valley.
So there's a there's a biginventors lab, all free
materials, and then I workedwith my production designer to
put that together.
But the transitions, as youwere asking about, the
(17:42):
transitions between the realworld and the virtual reality
world were the fun part.
It was we we had fun, like kindof coming up with creative ways
to move in and out of the worldso that it felt seamless, but
it was also if I wanted it to beintriguing, so that we felt
like we were getting glimpses ofthe Vale.
We don't know what it is is abrand's imagination or is it
real?
But it was it definitely addeda lot of complication to the
(18:04):
short, but in a way that I thinkthe whole team enjoyed.
I think that's what attractedso many wonderful people to it
is that it was just a really funpuzzle.
Hollyn (18:10):
And it's very unique too.
I don't think I've seen thatmany films that have just done
such a seamless transitionbetween animation and film.
Abigail (18:18):
Yeah, and well, there were definitely a lot of
iterations to get there.
And I know at one point someonepitched, like, well, maybe we
should just not go back andforth between the worlds, just
have it be a straightforwardlike we're in the real world,
then we go into the veil, and II just I I I felt like it would
just be it would be lessinteresting overall.
Hollyn (18:31):
Yeah, the thing that drew me into The Vale so much
was the the difference betweenthe Book of Elf and Bran's
perspective, and I feel like notreflecting that in the film
wouldn't do justice to the book.
So I'm really glad you guysdecided to do that.
Abigail (18:43):
I'm glad that we made it work.
Hollyn (18:44):
Yeah.
In the film industry, besideswrite writing and directing the
short film, you've also producedLove in Taipei.
And so I'm wondering what weresome of the differences between
the process of pr being aproducer and being a director
and a writer.
Abigail (18:58):
So for Love and Love in Taipei was my very first film,
and I was an executive produceron it.
Right.
So I basically wanted to learnthe ropes from start to finish.
And um, you know, being a goodstudent, I interviewed every
single person that I I couldreach to find out like how do
you do your job?
What do you you know, what isthis about?
And it's great.
When you see all those creditsrolling at the end of a film,
there are 300 names, and theyreally all do something for the
(19:21):
film.
They all touch and shape thefilm in some way, and they leave
their creative mark.
And I I think that's also theother miracle of a film, like
all these creatives like workingtowards this one final thing.
Um, but so as an executiveproducer for Love in Taipei, I
um you know the first step waswell, I guess as the author of
the novel, the first step washearing from studios and
producers.
(19:41):
Like they were asking me, Doyou see this as a TV series or a
film?
Do you see this as a full-blownmusical since there was a big
dance element to it?
Or are we going to just leaninto the dance elements?
So it ended up being a filmthat we leaned into the dance
elements.
And then from there we had tofind a screenwriter, and so I I
we found we auditioned a bunch,we found one that was great, and
then we um I went back andforth with them on the script
(20:03):
until that was greenlit, andthen we brought on the director
um and then we cast, which waswhich is fun, which is the part
that everyone I think getsexcited about.
Um but then we filmed at theheight of pandemic, so that
really shaped our project in adifferent way.
Um, we had to go through twoweeks of quarantine in Taiwan,
and Taiwan is very strict, yes,very strict.
(20:23):
And we had two sets of COVIDprotocols.
We joked that we were thesafest set on the planet because
we had American protocols andTaiwanese ones.
We were COVID testing everythree days, and we all had to
wear masks that were changedlike every couple hours.
So that in itself was its ownexperience.
But strangely enough, becauseof COVID, it it in some ways it
(20:44):
protected the creatives on theproject because we were the only
ones there.
Like it's very hard to do twoweeks of quarantine.
Most people cannot do it, but Ithink as a writer, I was a
writing retreat for me.
So I've actually done it twiceand I love it.
Awesome.
Like nobody could reach me, Icould just write my books and
they feed me.
So um, but it you know, formost people it's it's really
hard, and people just can't doit.
(21:04):
So we ended up just being usrunning around on set together
in Taiwan and shaping things.
And I remember at one point,like we probably would have been
in video village normally, butyou know, instead we were there,
and I remember like we weredoing the calligraphy scene, and
Julie pointed out, oh, they'reall holding their calligraphy
brush wrong.
And we just had the opportunityto say things like that and fix
them right on the spot.
And so there's a lot of littlechanges like that that we did
(21:26):
that I don't think is typicalfor um people in art roles, and
so because of that, that we justwe just learned so much about
how to make a movie, and then ofcourse, there's
post-production, um, which I wasless involved with Love in
Taipei, but we were very heavilyinvolved with with The Vale
because especially with theanimation, um, the live action
people think of animation aspost-production, but the
animation was like a a third ofthe film, and so we um we spent
(21:48):
a lot of time like in thatprocess for the veil itself.
And then I think producing anddirecting and writing to me, I
don't actually have these linesthat I feel like Hollywood has
had traditionally.
I even for TV versus film, itdoesn't seem that different to
me.
It's all just story.
Hollyn (22:02):
Right.
Abigail (22:03):
Sometimes you take longer to tell it, you could
take shorter to tell it, butevery story could be told in
different ways.
Right.
Um, and with different tools.
So for me it all blendstogether.
And the goal at the other dayis to translate the story and
the characters into a mediumthat other people can experience
and connect to.
Hollyn (22:20):
That's awesome.
So normally I would ask Abigailsome lightning round questions
or my guests some lightninground questions, but I wanted to
open it up to you guys if youguys had any questions for
Abigail or just in general.
First audience question (22:31):
Seeing your book, Loveboat Taipei,
turn into a film, what was thething that was the most exciting
for you and what was the mostdifficult for you in that
process?
Abigail (22:43):
Great question.
Most exciting, I think, is tosee all these images that were
just in my head on a screen.
And um, you know, the thingsthat you can't put in a book as
well are like the beauty ofTaiwan, the scenery, and the
kinetic energy of dance.
So those don't appear on a on apage.
So I enjoyed how the othermedium was able to reflect that.
(23:04):
Um, and I loved again meetingall the people who were
involved.
Um, I really connected,especially with my actors on
set, with um the other the otherfolks that were in Taiwan.
And what was the hardest part?
So, you know, with 300 peopleon a film, like it's gonna go in
its own direction.
And I think that's something II came to appreciate over time.
Someone said someone describedit as like, oh, the film wants
(23:25):
to be something, as though thefilm had its own identity.
And there is some truth tothat.
Um, as the author of the book,you have a little bit more
autonomy, um, but you cedecontrol to 300 people, and
everyone brings their ownsensibilities, so the actors
bring their own interpretation,the director brings his own
lens, and then at the end of theday in the in the editing room,
you have to try to figure outlike will all these pieces fit
together in a cohesive story.
(23:46):
So I know that my there were anumber of fans that were um
surprised and actuallydisappointed by the ending of
the movie when she I'm gonnaspoil it for you who haven't
seen it yet, because you shouldhave seen it by now.
Hollyn (23:56):
Um cover your ears if you're haven't seen it.
Abigail (23:59):
So she ends up with the other love interest in the
movie than she ends up with inthe book.
So I had a lot of very upsetfans, and actually just released
on Netflix worldwide a couplemonths ago, so I heard from all
of the people abroad who Ididn't know that that was the
ending.
Um, but what I told them, youknow, is similar to what I said
here, like 300 people are makingthis film, but also um the the
movie ends at the midpoint, likethe the journey continues in
(24:22):
this in the the rest of thetrilogy.
So I feel like I was able to,I'm glad I was able to do that
for my readers and my fans whowere who were hurt by that.
Um, and and to like understandlike the movie itself, it's its
own thing, and it was it'samazing to have all these
talented people like puttingtheir efforts into creating this
world so that so many morepeople could enjoy it, and so
they can enjoy the movie as itis, and then they can still
(24:43):
enjoy like the books and therest of the story
simultaneously.
Hollyn (24:47):
Any other questions?
Next audience question (24:48):
What made you decide to wait so long
before publishing The Vale?
Abigail (24:54):
I didn't have a choice actually.
My um my rep at the time said,you know, I don't know what this
is.
It's a it's a book about AIgeneration.
This is 2015, and she's like, Idon't know what this is, I
don't know how to place this, orI don't so it never saw the
light of day, never went to anypublishers.
And she was right.
I don't think we could havepublished a book like that back
then because really nobodyoutside Silicon Valley knew.
So yeah, it was just too earlyto publish, and then I forgot
(25:16):
about it.
Um I was working on all theseother books, and the reason why
it came back was I, after thesuccess of Loveboat Taipei, I
was meeting with producers, andone of them was um an animation
live-action hybrid producer atNetflix, and I was really
intrigued.
I'm like, oh, I have a projectlike that.
Um, and animators will tell youlike Neil Blevins, who's our um
(25:36):
animation production designer,is here in the audience, and I
think you know you probablyagree, like it's very expensive
to make animation, and there hasto be a good reason why you're
doing an animated film.
There's there are films thatare animated that don't have to
be animated, um, and they theyalways get challenged for that
reason.
But I felt like you know, theveil, it does really have to be
half live action, halfanimation.
I could make it all animation,but you wouldn't get the same
(25:58):
effect from that.
Like you could do a differentquality for the live action
world, but it's it really is itwas meant to be this way.
And so that's what kind of lita fire under me to finish the
novel.
But I actually got the shortfilm going before the novel is
even done.
Hollyn (26:11):
One more question.
And the last audience questionis what advice would you give to
a new author whose biggestdream is to publish a book and
make it into a movie?
Abigail (26:20):
So I think you know, for people who are interested in
writing novels, what I learnedis that you write what you know
and you write what you're theexpert in, versus I was I used
to think I I went to books tolearn things that I didn't know.
But when you do it yourself,it's about digging deep and like
what is what are the storiesthat only you can tell and the
unique point of view that onlyyou bring.
Um and that's I think how youleave a mark and you stand out.
And then how do you make amovie, a book into a movie?
(26:42):
It's hard.
I didn't know until we weredone with Loveboat Taipei that
it's a miracle to get anythingdone.
Um but I I've been really,really blessed to have so much
support from the community.
Um getting the book onto thebestseller list was huge for the
book because it's an AsianAmerican identity story, and so
I think that that also likehelped get us all the way to the
(27:03):
screen.
I had producers already prettymuch ready to go before we
launched, and they were veryproud of that.
They said we liked this bookbefore it was a bestseller.
Um, but I knew it would be along hard road, and so hitting
the bestsellers was actuallyreally important to us
strategically, um not just youknow for the the accolades of
it.
But you don't have to be abestseller novel to become a
(27:24):
film.
So um I think you just it takestime, but you have to find the
people who connect with yourwork, and then you can move it
forward from there.
Hollyn (27:32):
I think we do have some time for a couple of lightning
round questions.
So the lightning roundquestions, what I usually do is
I give a quick question, Abigailgives a quick answer, and then
I give a quick answer, and thenwe talk about it and then move
on to the next.
So the first one is what isyour go-to sushi order?
Abigail (27:50):
Ooh, ooh, great question.
Uh I do love salmon.
Hollyn (27:54):
Salmon? Ooh, salmon's good.
I like um I like yellowtail orToro.
Oh, Toro.
Very good too.
Yeah.
What is your most controversialhot take about food?
Abigail (28:06):
Um, I don't know if this is controversial, but I say
it too often.
Every time I get dim sum, Itell my kids this is the best
part about being Chinese.
It's probably veryreductionist.
Dim sum.
Hollyn (28:20):
Yeah, so I have a pretty controversial one.
So when I have a chocolate chipcookie, I know some people like
to dip them in milk.
See, I don't like doing that.
I like taking a bite out of it,swallowing it, and then like
washing it down with lemonade.
It's something about thesweet and sour that just really
goes together for me.
Abigail (28:37):
I love that.
Hollyn (28:38):
Yeah.
What is an allergy you wouldactually be okay with having?
Abigail (28:42):
I guess there's like Brussels sprouts.
I'd be okay with that.
Hollyn (28:48):
I'm gonna go in the same vein, asparagus.
Abigail (28:50):
There you go.
Hollyn (28:51):
If you could choose any character from The Vale and give
advice to them, which characterwould you choose and what
advice would you give them?
Abigail (28:58):
Oh, I think it's like the whole Lee family.
They're um they're brilliant,they're neuro-diverse, they're
not comfortable in the realworld, um, and they didn't know
how good they were.
So um, I mean, in some ways thewhole story is a love letter to
people like that, to peoplelike them who don't realize how
good you are and don't have theconfidence to move forward.
Um so I I want them to havethat.
And it actually takes their ownbrilliant creation that reveals
(29:19):
that truth to them.
Hollyn (29:20):
Yeah.
Well, thank you guys so much.
And before we get to thesignings and everything, I just
wanted to say a huge thank youto Annabelle's Book Club.
They were all just sosupportive of this idea and of
me and of Abigail, and I'm justso grateful to be able to have
(29:40):
this event in their beautifulbookstore.
Thank you guys again so much.
Thanks for listening to StoriesWithout Borders the Podcast.
Please rate and review the showon your favorite podcast
platform.
You can learn more online aboutstorieswithoutborders.org or
follow.
Follow us on Instagram atstories underscore without
(30:03):
borders.
And if you like watching yourpodcasts, subscribe to our
YouTube channel at Storiesunderscore Without Borders.
Stories Without Borders, thepodcast, is written, hosted, and
produced by me, Hollyn Alpert.
I also wrote and performed thetheme music.
Danuta Amato is our soundengineer, audio editor, and
videographer.
Kennedy Hibbert is our videoeditor.
(30:24):
Thanks to Liberty Yanaga andLangston Williams for production
support.
See you all next time.
Welcome to Stories Without Borders, the podcast.
I'm your host, Hollyn.
Here we interview people whouse the power of stories and
service to promote connection,empathy, and understanding
around the world.
You can learn more online atstorieswithoutborders.org or
follow us on Instagram andYouTube at Stories_ Without
Borders.
Thanks for listening.
Here's today's episode.
(00:25):
Hi everybody.
Thank you all so much forcoming to the very first live
taping of Stories WithoutBorders, the podcast.
It means so much to me that youguys are all here.
Before I introduce my lovelyguest, I'd love to give you all
just a little bit more contextand information about my
organization, Stories WithoutBorders.
So, Stories Without Borders, Ifounded it in 2023, and it's a
(00:49):
student-led organization thatuses the power of stories and
service to promote connection,empathy, and understanding
around the world.
And we've done a lot of serviceprojects, including supporting
fire relief in Altadena.
We've worked with kids, refugeeand migrant children in Tijuana
to cultivate a love oflearning.
And we've also providedenvironmentally focused
(01:10):
curriculum to foster youth inTaipei.
And a lot of these serviceprojects are inspired by
real-life stories like books,movies, etc.
And we take the content that'sin the stories and we apply it
into our service projects.
And that's how using the powerof stories comes into the
service projects.
And so this offshoot, thispodcast is the branch off of the
(01:30):
Stories Not Bordersorganization, where I interview
lovely authors, artists,activists, entrepreneurs, people
who use the power of storiesand service to promote
connection, empathy, andunderstanding around the world.
And what better guest to speakwith today than New York Times
best-selling author, filmmaker,and tech leader Abigail
Hing Wen.
(01:51):
Some of you here may knowAbigail from her New York Times
best-selling trilogy, theLoveboat Taipei series.
She also wrote and produced theParamount Plus adaptation,
Love in Taipei, which starsAshley Liao from The Hunger
Games franchise and Ross Butlerfrom Shazam.
Her fourth novel, Kisses,Codes, and Conspiracies, is a
(02:14):
national bestseller and anAmazon editor's pick.
Her fifth novel, The Vale, isher debut middle grade novel,
which is super exciting.
And she also wrote and directedthe short film The Vale:
Origins, which is a prequel toThe Vale.
So thank you so much, Abigail.
I'm so excited to be able tocelebrate your debut in the
(02:34):
middle grade world and also justthis film and just to be here
and talk about your work.
Abigail (02:39):
Oh wow.
And, you know, a fun fact, weactually did a little interview
together in secret while I wasfilming The Vale: Origins.
Hollyn (02:56):
She was my very first podcast guest, which is released
today.
So go check it out after thisevent.
So why don't we get started?
I'm just gonna give you guys alittle information about The
Vale.
So The Vale is about13-year-old Bran Lee, who has
spent the majority of his lifecreating and developing this
AI-generated world.
(03:16):
And he loves spending time inthe Vale.
He's created friends and questsand things for him to do.
And this Vale is sort of anescape for him from the real
world where his parents arestruggling financially.
And he tries to spend as muchtime in the Vale to not have to
interact with the real world andthe problems in the real world.
(03:37):
But then slowly weird thingsstart happening in the Vale.
Like the sunlight is weird,there's things that go missing.
And so Bran has to work againstthe clock to fix the Vale
before it's too late.
So I'd love to know what wasthe inspiration behind the Vale?
Abigail (03:52):
I actually wrote The Vale in 2015, so 10 years ago.
It was my creative thesis in myMFA program at Vermont College
of Fine Arts.
And I was working at the sametime in tech.
I was working in the heart ofthe AI revolution in Silicon
Valley, and I saw this reallypowerful technology that was
just seeping into all aspects ofour lives, and nobody knew
(04:12):
about it, nobody outside thevalley.
I remember there was one year Iwas working in Venture Capital,
and there were 2,000 AIstartups that year pumping this
technology into the world.
And it's a multi-usetechnology, so um, something
that seems as innocuous as likelip reading technology that's
used for the hearing impairedcould be weaponized so I can
hear what you guys arewhispering about at the very
(04:32):
back of this room.
And there was no one thinkingabout this from an ethics or
safety standpoint.
And so I was a lawyer in thatspace, and then eventually I
moved into our AI productsgroup.
But I wanted to democratizeaccess, I wanted to democratize
information about the technologyin a way that was accessible
and fun and engaging.
And the Vale sort of just cametogether partly because it's a
(04:52):
lot of things I love.
It's a family story, so it's afamily that's struggling
together, that's creatingtogether and saving each other.
Um similar to like a wrinkle intime, which is one of my
favorites.
It's also a fantasy I loveNarnia.
Um I love there's so manyfantasy worlds that I love, and
so the idea of a kid that's ableto use these powerful
technologies and build his ownfantasy world was really
(05:15):
appealing to me.
And so that's really the partof the story.
Hollyn (05:17):
And The Vale, like I've said before, is your very first
middle grade book.
All of your books, the Loveboatseries, Kisses, Codes, and
Conspiracies, they've all beenYA books.
So what made you want to writea middle grade book?
Abigail (05:29):
So I actually think middle grade's my first love.
Hollyn (05:32):
Really?
Abigail (05:32):
My very first novel that I wrote, There's no
overnight success.
I wrote now, I think it's been18 years since I first started
writing that novel.
It was a middle grade fantasy,and I um that was when I
realized that there wassomething here.
I didn't even know I wascreative at that time.
But I had this idea for amiddle grade fantasy about a boy
with a sword who goes intoanother world through a portal,
very kind of derivative.
But um, the world is cool, andmy agent today actually still
(05:55):
wants me to fix that story andput it out in the world.
But it was a middle grade, andI see pieces of it now in the
Vale today.
But I was even thinking backbecause I've gotten this
question a lot now, like, whydid you pivot from YA to middle
grade?
Like, well, actually, I firststarted writing middle grade,
and on my honeymoon, I broughtthe Chronicles of Narnia to read
to my husband who had neverread them.
So I think it just shows likeit's always just been in my DNA.
Hollyn (06:16):
And what were some of the similarities and differences
between writing YA and middlegrade?
Like, how does the processdiffer?
Abigail (06:22):
Yeah, I don't know that it's that different.
Um young adults well, actually,one of the things I don't love
about young adult is that rightnow it wants to be angsty, and I
don't necessarily want to likealways do that.
Um I think there's a place forit, and definitely in like the
Loveboat Taipei series, my girlis trying to figure out her
place in the world between Eastand West, and how does she
pursue her passions whilehonoring her family?
(06:44):
And and there is angst aroundthat, and and relationships and
romantic relationships andstuff.
But I feel like with middlegrade, there's a purity and
there can be adventure and thekids are heroes, which is I
think my favorite part.
I used to tell stories when Iwas little to my brother and
sister about worlds withoutadults where the kids are the
heroes, and I I love thatbecause I think kids are so
capable of many things.
(07:04):
Um, and if I'm able to helpthem believe in themselves a
little more, I think that'sthat's really all I want to
accomplish.
Hollyn (07:13):
That's beautiful.
And I feel like a lot of timeskids are underestimated.
I think even Bran in the book,he is underestimated time and
time again, and that's one ofthe challenges he has to
overcome, where his parentsunderestimate him, and later on
other figures in his lifeunderestimate him.
And one of the things I reallyenjoyed about The Vale, and I
thought was really unique, isthat there was almost two
(07:34):
different timelines.
It's a split point of view.
There's um one is Bran's pointof view, and the other is the
AI-generated um, the AI, hislittle AI friend that he made
called Gnomly.
And Brand's timeline takesplace partially in the real
world, partially in the veil,and Gnomly's timeline basically
just takes place in the Vale.
And so, what was the process ofcreating those two different
(07:55):
timelines and how did you mergethem together in a way that made
sense with the story?
Abigail (07:59):
Yeah, so it that it that was definitely one of the
hardest parts of writing thisbook.
Um it's a dual narrative, asyou mentioned.
It goes back and forth, notjust it's not a typical dual
narrative in the sense that itum it instead of just like two
different points of view everychapter, um, it goes back and
forth between the live-actionreal world and then the book of
e.l.f.
And the book of elf begins inGenesis and it ends in
(08:22):
Revelations, and so um, andthere's a little trick to it at
the end that um you you realizelater.
So I think it was thatinterweaving that was the
hardest part for me becausethere were two different
timelines and two differentstories, and the stories weren't
necessarily interconnected,right?
And so that was part of myexercise as I revised.
And I'm I'm a writer byrevision, like I don't actually
know how many drafts I've doneof the veil, but my Loveboat
(08:44):
Taipei book published at version31, and I think The Vale must
be more than that because it'sbeen 10 years that I've been
thinking about it.
I I did set it aside for manyyears while I wrote the other
novels, but I think figuring outhow the two worlds were going
to be linked was probably thefinal thing that I had to figure
out to really make the bookwork.
Um, and so there's there'sdragonflies, there are a lot of
(09:05):
Easter eggs that appearthroughout.
There's dragonflies that appearin both worlds, um, there are
analogues between thecharacters, and actually the fun
thing about working in thisbook with so many mediums is
that I get to like see differentdifferent artists will point
out different things.
So, for example, I justdirected the audiobook narration
with Matt Yang King, who isfabulous.
(09:27):
He's um been the voice forAvatar The Last Airbender and
Elemental, and he's so good withso many voices, and he um but
he had to ask me, like, oh, youknow, is this character like
this character?
And um, I don't want to spoilit all, but like Gnomly is a
little bit like Bran's analog,right?
Um, but there are otheranalogues, and so he actually
matched the voices, but one isin a British accent for the Book
(09:47):
of Elf, and the other in thereal world is in an American
accent, which is where our boylives.
Hollyn (09:51):
That's amazing.
And The Vale is a very techforward world, it's filled to
the brim with these intricatedescriptions and intricate uh
technologies of AI and even justrobots in general, which I
guess are technically AI.
And I know that you were a techleader and you are still a tech
leader, and so I'm wonderinghow did your experience in
working in Silicon Valleyinfluence your work?
(10:12):
Like how did you apply thatknowledge into this story?
Abigail (10:15):
So the last thing I did in Silicon Valley before I left
to do content creationfull-time was I actually hosted
the podcast for IntelCorporation.
It was their official podcaston AI, and my goal in
re-rebranding that podcast forthem was like very much the same
of democratizing access to thetechnologies.
So I think that that is kind ofmy secret weapon is I can take
the complicated technologies andmake analogies out of them.
(10:38):
So one of the analogies uh, andone of my hopes actually is for
my young readers and the youngat heart who read the book, um,
is that after you read the book,you will have an intuitive
understanding of how AIgeneration works just by living
it with Bran.
And the Vale itself is trainedon a corpus of books, you know,
in the way that I think mostpeople now are familiar with how
(10:58):
ChatGPT and these other umlarge language models have been
trained.
The Vale's been trained onbooks, but it's been trained in
a clean way.
So it's clean AI, it's a termI'm trying to coin with this
book.
It's trained on works that arenot in the copyright anymore.
So The Brothers Grimm, um AThousand One Arabian Nights, The
Magic Paint Brush, which is aChinese story where everything
you paint comes to life.
That's very much the Vale.
(11:19):
And there's an analogy in thebook that describes it like a
carnation drinking coloredwater.
The carnation turns the colorof the water that it's um
sitting in, and that's kind oflike the Vale, it's absorbing
and learning from all thesethings that have been inputted
into it, not just the stories,but also the drawings that the
Lee family have put into theveil, and then the interactions
with Bran himself.
(11:40):
For better or worse, um, Brandhas been training the Vale
personally for seven years byinteracting and playing in this
world.
Um, and so as you mentioned,part of his journey is learning
to not only live in the Vale.
Hollyn (11:52):
Yeah.
Bran's parents are always veryinvested in their work.
And how do you think that hasshaped Bran's sort of experience
with the real world and hissocial development?
Abigail (12:02):
Yeah, that's a great question.
Um, and I was I was tellingHollyn when we were in the green
room, like, the book's justcome out and I am on tour, so I
keep leaving every city, so Iactually never get to talk to
anyone who's read the book.
Um, but Hollyn read it a whileago, so this is a really
rewarding conversation for me.
Um one of the fun things aboutthe dynamic in the family is mom
and dad love each other somuch.
They're really close, they'resoulmates.
(12:23):
And um, because they're suchsoulmates, Bran actually feels a
little left out.
And not to I I do think that'sactually the right model for
like a family for the parents tohave a strong bond.
Um, but partly why Bran wants alittle brother so badly is so
that he has someone to relate toat his level, someone who can
understand what it is to be theparents of geniuses that are so
brilliant that can create thingslike the veil technology, but
(12:46):
are so absent-minded that theyforget to go to parent teacher
conferences or schedule playdates.
And so that's why he reallylongs for someone he can relate
to, and and he finds thatinitially in the veil.
For many years, that's right.
It's gnomely, it's his elves,it's this world that he's
building.
Hollyn (13:01):
How do the different characters symbolize different
aspects of Bran's life?
Like how what is the chief ofthe elves symbolize?
What is Gnomly's little sistersymbolize?
Abigail (13:10):
Oh gosh, I don't want to spoil anything.
Gnomly has a little sister, hername is Meimei, and that was
that was fun because that--
Hollyn (13:18):
Doesn't Meimei mean little sister in Chinese?
Abigail (13:19):
It does mean little sister in Chinese.
So that was partly, you know,like my way of Bran is is Wasian
kid, um, as you are.
Yes.
And and that's partly like, youknow, what does that mean that
he's a Wasian kid?
It means like he just bringsinputs from both all his
cultures.
So um, so there are things likethe magic paintbrush and that
his little sister in the Vale iscalled Meimei.
But uh the chief, there islike, I don't think it's a
(13:41):
spoiler to say the chief hassome qualities of Bran's father.
Yes.
Even though the chief is thefather of the love interest in
the veil.
Right.
Um, but there's something abouthim where he lacks confidence
to stand up against people thatare trying, you know, that are
opposing him.
And so I and I think that'strue for all art.
Our art reflects who we are,and for Bran, the veil is
(14:01):
Bran's.
So it reflects the world thathe knows and um and who he is.
Hollyn (14:06):
And speaking of the two different um varying
perspectives, how does thediction differ in the Book of
Elf and Bran's perspective?
Abigail (14:14):
So the Book of Elf is the idea is that it's like a
traditional old fantasy novel,and so there's a bit of like
more of a high language.
Yeah.
Um there's quirky language thatI keep getting feedback on this
one line.
This is a description of theVale that people keep saying I
should take it out, but I justcouldn't take it out.
So Gnomly waves to his fellowelves.
"They were always great fun intheir many colored smocks,
(14:35):
taunting the plants, which wereclever with their fingers and
toes but never went anywhere.
Their huts were scattered likewild mushrooms, their young ones
ran about without a stitch ofclothing, and the ambitious
goals of the chief rolled outeach morning, 'gather ye all
fruits of the forest,' he wouldroar from the square, always
went unmet by nightfall.
The elves had other games toplay, and the goal, to be
(14:56):
honest, was not achievable in aforest of a thousand acres.
This was the Vale." So um I didmodify that language, like it
was very like flowery at onepoint, and so I modified it to
make it plainer, but it's stillthere, and it's I think it still
confuses some people, but I Iwanted to keep it because I felt
like it captured the whimsy ofthis world.
Hollyn (15:16):
In addition to publishing and writing The Vale,
you also wrote and directed theshort film The Vale: Origins,
the prequel to The Vale.
What was it like directing afilm for the first time?
Abigail (15:27):
Oh, so it was such a wonderful fit that I never
expected.
And I think the best part ofdoing a film is that you have
this amazing community ofpeople.
And being a writer, being anauthor, it's just you and the
page, and then you've got youreditor, but it's it can be very
solitary.
And I love that filmmaking is ateam sport.
And then being a director, too,is it's hard to actually become
an expert at being a directorbecause you can't practice.
(15:49):
It's like you don't make thatmany movies, but you end up
becoming a lay person in a lotof other art mediums, and so you
know, getting to work on um theproduction design and then
working with our our DP oncameras, and then our animation
team, like thinking about allthe things that go into that.
Um, and then even with myillustrators for the novel, the
(16:09):
novel itself has 40illustrations, so I art directed
that, and then working with myaudiobook narrator, like so.
You end up exercising all thesedifferent muscles, um, and then
all has to come together intoone final product, and that I
think is like it's it's likenothing I've ever experienced.
And I remember Julie, I wasJulie's one of my executive
(16:30):
duties, so she's Ashley Liao'smom, who's my star for Love in
Taipei, and she's here.
Um, we were talking, andJulie's like, it's like an
addiction.
Like once you start doing it,you can't stop because it's just
it's incredible, it's sorewarding.
Hollyn (16:41):
Yeah, and the The Vale: Origins, it's a multimedia
format that transitions back andforth so smoothly.
And so, what was it like justincorporating the the live
action with the animation?
And and how'd you go from thereal world to the veil?
Like, how do those transitionswork?
Abigail (16:58):
Oh yeah, so that that was definitely part of the fun
of it.
And I'm sorry for those whohaven't, most of you haven't
seen it yet.
Um, we can't screen it publiclyyet because we are taking it
through the film festivalcircuit, but I we do have a
trailer that's partly releasedon Instagram, and I will be
releasing the trailer very soonon YouTube, so you'll get a
taste of it there at least.
But part of the reason why Iwanted to do the short was as a
proof of concept for what afeature-length film could be,
(17:20):
and um, you know, even my ownagents were scared, like, oh,
that's going to be a veryexpensive film because it's not
just animation, but the SiliconValley piece is expensive.
But for me, like building theSilicon Valley part was free
because I just sourced materialsfrom everyone I knew in the
valley.
So there's a there's a biginventors lab, all free
materials, and then I workedwith my production designer to
put that together.
But the transitions, as youwere asking about, the
(17:42):
transitions between the realworld and the virtual reality
world were the fun part.
It was we we had fun, like kindof coming up with creative ways
to move in and out of the worldso that it felt seamless, but
it was also if I wanted it to beintriguing, so that we felt
like we were getting glimpses ofthe Vale.
We don't know what it is is abrand's imagination or is it
real?
But it was it definitely addeda lot of complication to the
(18:04):
short, but in a way that I thinkthe whole team enjoyed.
I think that's what attractedso many wonderful people to it
is that it was just a really funpuzzle.
Hollyn (18:10):
And it's very unique too.
I don't think I've seen thatmany films that have just done
such a seamless transitionbetween animation and film.
Abigail (18:18):
Yeah, and well, there were definitely a lot of
iterations to get there.
And I know at one point someonepitched, like, well, maybe we
should just not go back andforth between the worlds, just
have it be a straightforwardlike we're in the real world,
then we go into the veil, and II just I I I felt like it would
just be it would be lessinteresting overall.
Hollyn (18:31):
Yeah, the thing that drew me into The Vale so much
was the the difference betweenthe Book of Elf and Bran's
perspective, and I feel like notreflecting that in the film
wouldn't do justice to the book.
So I'm really glad you guysdecided to do that.
Abigail (18:43):
I'm glad that we made it work.
Hollyn (18:44):
Yeah.
In the film industry, besideswrite writing and directing the
short film, you've also producedLove in Taipei.
And so I'm wondering what weresome of the differences between
the process of pr being aproducer and being a director
and a writer.
Abigail (18:58):
So for Love and Love in Taipei was my very first film,
and I was an executive produceron it.
Right.
So I basically wanted to learnthe ropes from start to finish.
And um, you know, being a goodstudent, I interviewed every
single person that I I couldreach to find out like how do
you do your job?
What do you you know, what isthis about?
And it's great.
When you see all those creditsrolling at the end of a film,
there are 300 names, and theyreally all do something for the
(19:21):
film.
They all touch and shape thefilm in some way, and they leave
their creative mark.
And I I think that's also theother miracle of a film, like
all these creatives like workingtowards this one final thing.
Um, but so as an executiveproducer for Love in Taipei, I
um you know the first step waswell, I guess as the author of
the novel, the first step washearing from studios and
producers.
(19:41):
Like they were asking me, Doyou see this as a TV series or a
film?
Do you see this as a full-blownmusical since there was a big
dance element to it?
Or are we going to just leaninto the dance elements?
So it ended up being a filmthat we leaned into the dance
elements.
And then from there we had tofind a screenwriter, and so I I
we found we auditioned a bunch,we found one that was great, and
then we um I went back andforth with them on the script
(20:03):
until that was greenlit, andthen we brought on the director
um and then we cast, which waswhich is fun, which is the part
that everyone I think getsexcited about.
Um but then we filmed at theheight of pandemic, so that
really shaped our project in adifferent way.
Um, we had to go through twoweeks of quarantine in Taiwan,
and Taiwan is very strict, yes,very strict.
(20:23):
And we had two sets of COVIDprotocols.
We joked that we were thesafest set on the planet because
we had American protocols andTaiwanese ones.
We were COVID testing everythree days, and we all had to
wear masks that were changedlike every couple hours.
So that in itself was its ownexperience.
But strangely enough, becauseof COVID, it it in some ways it
(20:44):
protected the creatives on theproject because we were the only
ones there.
Like it's very hard to do twoweeks of quarantine.
Most people cannot do it, but Ithink as a writer, I was a
writing retreat for me.
So I've actually done it twiceand I love it.
Awesome.
Like nobody could reach me, Icould just write my books and
they feed me.
So um, but it you know, formost people it's it's really
hard, and people just can't doit.
(21:04):
So we ended up just being usrunning around on set together
in Taiwan and shaping things.
And I remember at one point,like we probably would have been
in video village normally, butyou know, instead we were there,
and I remember like we weredoing the calligraphy scene, and
Julie pointed out, oh, they'reall holding their calligraphy
brush wrong.
And we just had the opportunityto say things like that and fix
them right on the spot.
And so there's a lot of littlechanges like that that we did
(21:26):
that I don't think is typicalfor um people in art roles, and
so because of that, that we justwe just learned so much about
how to make a movie, and then ofcourse, there's
post-production, um, which I wasless involved with Love in
Taipei, but we were very heavilyinvolved with with The Vale
because especially with theanimation, um, the live action
people think of animation aspost-production, but the
animation was like a a third ofthe film, and so we um we spent
(21:48):
a lot of time like in thatprocess for the veil itself.
And then I think producing anddirecting and writing to me, I
don't actually have these linesthat I feel like Hollywood has
had traditionally.
I even for TV versus film, itdoesn't seem that different to
me.
It's all just story.
Hollyn (22:02):
Right.
Abigail (22:03):
Sometimes you take longer to tell it, you could
take shorter to tell it, butevery story could be told in
different ways.
Right.
Um, and with different tools.
So for me it all blendstogether.
And the goal at the other dayis to translate the story and
the characters into a mediumthat other people can experience
and connect to.
Hollyn (22:20):
That's awesome.
So normally I would ask Abigailsome lightning round questions
or my guests some lightninground questions, but I wanted to
open it up to you guys if youguys had any questions for
Abigail or just in general.
First audience question (22:31):
Seeing your book, Loveboat Taipei,
turn into a film, what was thething that was the most exciting
for you and what was the mostdifficult for you in that
process?
Abigail (22:43):
Great question.
Most exciting, I think, is tosee all these images that were
just in my head on a screen.
And um, you know, the thingsthat you can't put in a book as
well are like the beauty ofTaiwan, the scenery, and the
kinetic energy of dance.
So those don't appear on a on apage.
So I enjoyed how the othermedium was able to reflect that.
(23:04):
Um, and I loved again meetingall the people who were
involved.
Um, I really connected,especially with my actors on
set, with um the other the otherfolks that were in Taiwan.
And what was the hardest part?
So, you know, with 300 peopleon a film, like it's gonna go in
its own direction.
And I think that's something II came to appreciate over time.
Someone said someone describedit as like, oh, the film wants
(23:25):
to be something, as though thefilm had its own identity.
And there is some truth tothat.
Um, as the author of the book,you have a little bit more
autonomy, um, but you cedecontrol to 300 people, and
everyone brings their ownsensibilities, so the actors
bring their own interpretation,the director brings his own
lens, and then at the end of theday in the in the editing room,
you have to try to figure outlike will all these pieces fit
together in a cohesive story.
(23:46):
So I know that my there were anumber of fans that were um
surprised and actuallydisappointed by the ending of
the movie when she I'm gonnaspoil it for you who haven't
seen it yet, because you shouldhave seen it by now.
Hollyn (23:56):
Um cover your ears if you're haven't seen it.
Abigail (23:59):
So she ends up with the other love interest in the
movie than she ends up with inthe book.
So I had a lot of very upsetfans, and actually just released
on Netflix worldwide a couplemonths ago, so I heard from all
of the people abroad who Ididn't know that that was the
ending.
Um, but what I told them, youknow, is similar to what I said
here, like 300 people are makingthis film, but also um the the
movie ends at the midpoint, likethe the journey continues in
(24:22):
this in the the rest of thetrilogy.
So I feel like I was able to,I'm glad I was able to do that
for my readers and my fans whowere who were hurt by that.
Um, and and to like understandlike the movie itself, it's its
own thing, and it was it'samazing to have all these
talented people like puttingtheir efforts into creating this
world so that so many morepeople could enjoy it, and so
they can enjoy the movie as itis, and then they can still
(24:43):
enjoy like the books and therest of the story
simultaneously.
Hollyn (24:47):
Any other questions?
Next audience question (24:48):
What made you decide to wait so long
before publishing The Vale?
Abigail (24:54):
I didn't have a choice actually.
My um my rep at the time said,you know, I don't know what this
is.
It's a it's a book about AIgeneration.
This is 2015, and she's like, Idon't know what this is, I
don't know how to place this, orI don't so it never saw the
light of day, never went to anypublishers.
And she was right.
I don't think we could havepublished a book like that back
then because really nobodyoutside Silicon Valley knew.
So yeah, it was just too earlyto publish, and then I forgot
(25:16):
about it.
Um I was working on all theseother books, and the reason why
it came back was I, after thesuccess of Loveboat Taipei, I
was meeting with producers, andone of them was um an animation
live-action hybrid producer atNetflix, and I was really
intrigued.
I'm like, oh, I have a projectlike that.
Um, and animators will tell youlike Neil Blevins, who's our um
(25:36):
animation production designer,is here in the audience, and I
think you know you probablyagree, like it's very expensive
to make animation, and there hasto be a good reason why you're
doing an animated film.
There's there are films thatare animated that don't have to
be animated, um, and they theyalways get challenged for that
reason.
But I felt like you know, theveil, it does really have to be
half live action, halfanimation.
I could make it all animation,but you wouldn't get the same
(25:58):
effect from that.
Like you could do a differentquality for the live action
world, but it's it really is itwas meant to be this way.
And so that's what kind of lita fire under me to finish the
novel.
But I actually got the shortfilm going before the novel is
even done.
Hollyn (26:11):
One more question.
And the last audience questionis what advice would you give to
a new author whose biggestdream is to publish a book and
make it into a movie?
Abigail (26:20):
So I think you know, for people who are interested in
writing novels, what I learnedis that you write what you know
and you write what you're theexpert in, versus I was I used
to think I I went to books tolearn things that I didn't know.
But when you do it yourself,it's about digging deep and like
what is what are the storiesthat only you can tell and the
unique point of view that onlyyou bring.
Um and that's I think how youleave a mark and you stand out.
And then how do you make amovie, a book into a movie?
(26:42):
It's hard.
I didn't know until we weredone with Loveboat Taipei that
it's a miracle to get anythingdone.
Um but I I've been really,really blessed to have so much
support from the community.
Um getting the book onto thebestseller list was huge for the
book because it's an AsianAmerican identity story, and so
I think that that also likehelped get us all the way to the
(27:03):
screen.
I had producers already prettymuch ready to go before we
launched, and they were veryproud of that.
They said we liked this bookbefore it was a bestseller.
Um, but I knew it would be along hard road, and so hitting
the bestsellers was actuallyreally important to us
strategically, um not just youknow for the the accolades of
it.
But you don't have to be abestseller novel to become a
(27:24):
film.
So um I think you just it takestime, but you have to find the
people who connect with yourwork, and then you can move it
forward from there.
Hollyn (27:32):
I think we do have some time for a couple of lightning
round questions.
So the lightning roundquestions, what I usually do is
I give a quick question, Abigailgives a quick answer, and then
I give a quick answer, and thenwe talk about it and then move
on to the next.
So the first one is what isyour go-to sushi order?
Abigail (27:50):
Ooh, ooh, great question.
Uh I do love salmon.
Hollyn (27:54):
Salmon? Ooh, salmon's good.
I like um I like yellowtail orToro.
Oh, Toro.
Very good too.
Yeah.
What is your most controversialhot take about food?
Abigail (28:06):
Um, I don't know if this is controversial, but I say
it too often.
Every time I get dim sum, Itell my kids this is the best
part about being Chinese.
It's probably veryreductionist.
Dim sum.
Hollyn (28:20):
Yeah, so I have a pretty controversial one.
So when I have a chocolate chipcookie, I know some people like
to dip them in milk.
See, I don't like doing that.
I like taking a bite out of it,swallowing it, and then like
washing it down with lemonade.
It's something about thesweet and sour that just really
goes together for me.
Abigail (28:37):
I love that.
Hollyn (28:38):
Yeah.
What is an allergy you wouldactually be okay with having?
Abigail (28:42):
I guess there's like Brussels sprouts.
I'd be okay with that.
Hollyn (28:48):
I'm gonna go in the same vein, asparagus.
Abigail (28:50):
There you go.
Hollyn (28:51):
If you could choose any character from The Vale and give
advice to them, which characterwould you choose and what
advice would you give them?
Abigail (28:58):
Oh, I think it's like the whole Lee family.
They're um they're brilliant,they're neuro-diverse, they're
not comfortable in the realworld, um, and they didn't know
how good they were.
So um, I mean, in some ways thewhole story is a love letter to
people like that, to peoplelike them who don't realize how
good you are and don't have theconfidence to move forward.
Um so I I want them to havethat.
And it actually takes their ownbrilliant creation that reveals
(29:19):
that truth to them.
Hollyn (29:20):
Yeah.
Well, thank you guys so much.
And before we get to thesignings and everything, I just
wanted to say a huge thank youto Annabelle's Book Club.
They were all just sosupportive of this idea and of
me and of Abigail, and I'm justso grateful to be able to have
(29:40):
this event in their beautifulbookstore.
Thank you guys again so much.
Thanks for listening to StoriesWithout Borders the Podcast.
Please rate and review the showon your favorite podcast
platform.
You can learn more online aboutstorieswithoutborders.org or
follow.
Follow us on Instagram atstories underscore without
(30:03):
borders.
And if you like watching yourpodcasts, subscribe to our
YouTube channel at Storiesunderscore Without Borders.
Stories Without Borders, thepodcast, is written, hosted, and
produced by me, Hollyn Alpert.
I also wrote and performed thetheme music.
Danuta Amato is our soundengineer, audio editor, and
videographer.
Kennedy Hibbert is our videoeditor.
(30:24):
Thanks to Liberty Yanaga andLangston Williams for production
support.
See you all next time.
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