July 29, 2025 • 32 mins
In the kickoff to Season 2 of The United States of Small Business Podcast, now reimagined as Stories Worth Hearing, host John Quick sits down with one of the most electrifying mentalists in the world—Oz Pearlman. From melting minds on America’s Got Talent to making Joe Rogan visibly uncomfortable by guessing his ATM PIN on-air, Oz has captivated audiences across the globe. But behind the viral moments is a devoted family man and a genuinely kind human being.
In this episode, John explores Oz’s decades-long grind, the magic behind the mentalism, and how his skills are more than just entertainment—they’re tools anyone can use in everyday life. Whether you're a skeptic or a believer, this is one story you’ll be glad you heard.
Look for his book here: https://amzn.to/4miT6U6
Be on the lookout for my Newsmax Column.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
I'm John Quick, and over the years I've had the privilege of
hosting over 400 podcast episodes, most recently the
United States of Small Business.Through all those conversations,
one thing has become clear, people are more than just what
you read about them in the headlines.
That's why I'm watching Stories Worth Hearing, a new series that
(00:20):
dives into the lives behind the headlines.
These raw, real conversations with people whose stories
deserves more than a sound bite.No script, no spin, just the
truth behind their journey. And to get today's guest is a
perfect example of just that. O's Pearlman is one of the most
captivating mentalists in the world.
(00:41):
He amazed millions on America's Got Talent ESPNNBC, but recently
he went viral for doing what most of us thought was
impossible. He guessed Joe Rogan's ATM pin
on air. Some have even called him the
most interesting guest Joe Roganhas ever had.
And if you've seen the show, youknow that's saying something.
(01:03):
But Oz's story goes far beyond mentalist from Wall Street
Careel to be to become a world class performer and an ultra
endurance athlete. His journey is all about belief,
hustle and taking big risks. So without further ado, let's.
Jump right in. Oh, I appreciate you joining me.
You know, one of the things thatI that made me stumble upon kind
(01:27):
of you and, and start to look into your story and was that a
lot of my friends saw you on JoeRogan podcast and they said that
your episode was probably the most intriguing and interesting
episode they've ever seen on JoeRogan, which is pretty nuts
because that's the biggest podcasts in the entire world.
It's consumed by more people than any news show, CNN, Fox
(01:51):
News, all those kind of things combined.
So what was it like being on JoeRogan?
Everybody's seen that ATM pin clip.
Talk to me a little bit about how how what the experience was
like. First off, I love hearing that
because you know when you do it,it's one thing, but you don't
really. There's YouTube comments, but
real life like what people talk about and say that that network
of people telling you like you got to listen to this episode.
(02:14):
I love that. I've been on and off a listener
of his for almost a decade. So I've studied the show and it
didn't. It wasn't by happenstance that I
got on there. I've been trying for years.
For years I've been working at different angles, different
people, Wheeling and dealing behind the scenes.
So I came into that show with what I would describe as
literally years of preparation as to what I thought I would be
(02:35):
doing and all different plans. Plan A, Plan B.
It's almost like an Ocean's 11 type caper where I can even tell
you that I'm already set up for things that I'm going to do when
I go back on Rogan. So, you know, before I left the
room, my goal was to punch my ticket to get back on for
another appearance, and I've already got thoughts of how to
go bigger and better the next time.
(02:55):
It was, it was an incredible experience.
It's incredibly challenging. It's kind of like the Super Bowl
for what I do, but even harder than the Super Bowl because
there's no controlling the environment.
It's Joe's show. Joe does what he wants.
Joe is not, you know, he's the biggest skeptic in the world, so
you're not going to get anythinglike over on him when people are
(03:18):
saying, I think the reason that that AFTM pin code hit people so
hard is because everyone knows. Nobody in the world goes that's
fake. You know, some people say, oh,
it's got to be fake with these football players.
Joe Rogan's not faking it for anyone, not for me, not for
presidents, not for anyone. And the genuine distress and
light anger in his eyes conveyedmore than any, you know, any
(03:40):
words could say. Like he was really startled and
kind of freaked out and started to think, like, how did you do
that? Is this nefarious?
Is this not? And by the end, I think I really
made him somewhat of a believer whereby he got a sense for what
I'm capable of doing. Yeah, I've only, I've only, I've
watched Joe Rogan pretty regularly.
I've only seen him kind of like uncomfortable in two clips. 1
(04:04):
was the guy talking about mushrooms, say he couldn't, he
couldn't talk about mushrooms anymore or he might get clipped.
And the second one was was the ATM pin.
So let's let's take me back to kind of where this all started.
I'd love to hear the story of what first got you started in
mentalism and magic. What drew you to it?
(04:24):
It's, you know, you're at the top of the game now, but I'm
sure that it took years and years and years and years of
work. So talk to me a little bit about
that. Yeah, unfortunately, it always
does, right. It never happens overnight, even
when it looks like overnight success.
I started as a magician. I started as a teenager.
That's where I kind of caught the bug.
That's usually the term is you. Most people see a magician in
(04:45):
some sort of environment. For me to happen to be on a
cruise ship, which was we did that for my 13th birthday, that
was a huge party in lieu of likeI had a bar mitzvah and we
didn't have a party like most people do.
Instead, me and my kind of grandma and my parents went on a
cruise ship with my sisters, sawa magician and was blown away,
absolutely blown away. And then I started where as most
(05:06):
people have a passing interest, they might get a magic kit, they
might, you know, do a couple tricks and then it collects dust
in a drawer. I was obsessed.
So for me, it didn't end there. It continued and it became a
self fulfilling thing where I wanted to keep learning more.
And in order for me to do that, I didn't really have the
financial means in order. My parents, my parents are
divorced right around then. So this was kind of one of those
things that filled the void for me of I would say in hindsight,
(05:29):
not dealing with the trauma and tumultuous nature of my family
was I could just zone in and 110% focus on magic and learning
magic tricks and also get that dopamine hit of seeing people
react and just kind of love whatI'm doing, which is a common
theme and thread with a lot of comedians, a lot of magicians
and performers is there's some of that childhood of like you're
(05:50):
filling in darker times by making it happy.
And I've seen that with a lot ofmy friends who happen to be
comedians and magicians and mentalists.
And, and, and honestly, that's what I started doing.
And I started performing semi professionally in order to pay
for more tricks. So in order for me to get more
stuff and do more stuff, I was doing shows.
And that was honestly my hustle throughout high school and
(06:10):
college as I kind of got better and better, started doing
restaurants, kids birthday parties, advancing to adult
parties, and then continuing on.I actually went to college, got
a degree in electrical engineering, worked on Wall
Street and you Fast forward about 10 years past me getting
into magic is when I quit my dayjob and became a full time
performer. Tell me a little bit about that
(06:32):
moment in time where you know, you have an electrical
engineering degree, you're on Wall Street, by all means, by
all worldly accounts, that's a that's already a successful
career. It's at that there has to be
some moment where you're like, I'm going to now do my dream or
side hustle full time and leave kind of the Wall Street job in
(06:54):
the rear. Tell me about what that moment
looked like for you. So it's it's always funny
because in hindsight, it always seems like that was the moment I
knew, you know, like that you always feel like in hindsight,
things are perfect. But at the moment it was a big
leap of faith. I was, you know, I had a cushy
job. I had a steady paycheck, all
things that I don't take for granted and that, you know, God
(07:15):
bless a lot of people don't have.
But I feel like at my core, I did not think this was my
calling in life, that this was where I would advance.
And if you asked me kind of thatquestion of look yourself in the
mirror, is it? Can you see yourself doing this
in 20 years? What is your automatic answer?
My automatic answer was no. You know, that's not where I
want to be. But you know, reality sometimes
(07:35):
isn't quite the same thing as dreams.
So I set myself up for success. It was a lot of the things I did
in the years leading up saving money, building a network.
I, I wrote a book, it's coming out this year.
And it really shows you how I went from an idea that became a
passion, that became a profession that became, you
know, and now a major success. But it was all those little
(07:56):
steps along the way where I kindof built up enough business
where I said, could I do this? And, and there were a few
moments there where I kind of started to believe in myself
that I'm going to give it a shot.
And eventually I, I end up quitting there.
There was a moment where I performed for the CFO of the
company because I worked for Merrill Lynch.
And what happened during this moment is he had no idea that I
(08:18):
worked for the company. I was hired as a performer.
He thought I was a professional magician.
But I, the event planners withinthe company all knew me because
I did the happy hours, you know what I mean?
I networked within the company. And it's a very like, very
precise moment that I'll never forget where I turned $1.00
bills into hundreds. And he starts laughing and you
know, this is Wall Street, they want to make money.
(08:38):
He goes, oh, we got to have you working here.
And everyone's making them laughing.
Like 5 or 6 guys are all laughing and, and I go, I do
work here, Sir. And he thought I was just
joking. He thought it was like part of
the riff. And he goes, oh, what do you
mean? And I go, no, no, seriously.
Like I, I got serious. All of a sudden I broke the 4th
1. I go, I work in global
technology services at 95 Green St.
And so he, it clicked in his mind, like this guy's not just
(08:58):
joking. And I knew too many acronyms of
the company. He goes, he's Australian goes
what the hell you doing working here, mate?
And it was for him passing comment.
And again, I, I, I haven't met him.
It's funny, James Gorman in many, many years, but I doubt he
would ever remember. But it's those moments that
somebody says the right words inthe right place at the right
time. It's like puzzle pieces that
connect. And I just kind of said to
(09:19):
myself, what am I doing working here?
It was more existential and deep.
And that was kind of where I decided I'm going to quit.
I'm going to go for this. And, you know, lengthy story,
but that was just about 20 yearsago in 2005.
And this is all the stuff that'sbuilt up and happened since.
That's awesome. So let's talk a little bit a
(09:39):
pivot and talk a little bit about this book that's coming
out and I'd love to hear a little bit of background from
it. I know it's I think it's up for
pre sale. We'll put a wherever this lands,
we'll put a link to the book. Talk to me a little bit about
why you wrote the book and what folks could expect that they
take a look at it. Absolutely.
So I think for so many years I always get asked the same
(10:02):
question at the end of every show.
How do you do it right? That is the question people ask.
And after a while I've dissectedthe fact that I don't think
people actually want to know howI do it, because what I have is
a very finite skill set that I'musing primarily for the purpose
of entertainment, which is what looks like reading people's
minds. But I don't read minds.
(10:23):
I am not supernatural. I am not psychic.
I don't claim to have any powersthat you don't have.
Rather what I do is read people,which all of us are capable of
doing, and we do at certain degrees.
Just most of us haven't honed that skill.
The same way a pianist might know a tune or two, but you
might not make it to Carnegie Hall.
So my book is what it does. It shows you how to apply the
(10:44):
principles of mentalism, but instead of for the form of
entertainment to your life at home, at work, in your
relationships, and utilize my skills.
So rather than being a mentalist, which there are lots
of books, if you want to learn to be a mentalist, they're
videos. Good luck.
It's a lot of work and it's years and years.
I wanted you to start to learn how to think like a mentalist
(11:04):
and give you kind of simple strategies and tools that you
can use and pick up quickly. Like, nobody wants to read a
book and spend years and years, frankly, you know, that's why
there's not that many mentalists.
You want to learn something in 10 minutes and still be using it
in 10 years. And that was what the book is
all about is how to find those life hacks that you can use to
(11:26):
supercharge your memory. That's a huge one.
How to win people over and influence them.
Like my Bible from 2 decades agowas How to Win Friends and
Influence People by Dale Carnegie, which is just tried
and true tactics of how to like,like it says win people over.
How to get them to like you because if they like you, they
want to do business with you, they want to be friends with
you, and they want to be around you.
(11:48):
All of those things are very important, whether you're trying
to build relationships or make money.
And so that's that's really whatthe book is all about.
And it dives into some of my funstories, you know, kind of crazy
things with celebrities, things I've done kind of getting behind
the curtain of what I've done, but then teaching every chapter
at the end. Takeaways.
Here's what you're going to learn.
(12:08):
Here's what you're going to do. That's awesome.
So along your journey, did you have somebody that kind of saw
your potential, maybe was a heroin your life, somebody that was
super inspirational? Tell me who that person was and
and maybe why they were here in your life.
(12:28):
So I'm a huge believer in mentors and, and, and that's
like a that's one chapter of thebook is how to find those people
where it's always very overwhelming and daunting when
you have an idea, a concept and you want to see yourself as a
success and you're like, I don'tknow all the steps.
How do I get there? Find someone who's what you want
to be 5 years and 10 years from now and find a way for them to
(12:48):
open up to you. So for me, I got very lucky when
I was a teenager, I met a guy, his name is Bruce Kessler, where
what he was kind of my Magic mentor for a few years where we
randomly saw each other at a Borders at a Borders bookstore.
RIP doesn't even exist anymore and I would always have cards in
my hands from age 13 to 18. You literally could not find
(13:09):
without cards. You ready for this, John Quick?
I found waterproof cards and I would practice in the shower.
That's a true psycho. Waterproof cards in the shower.
You talk about dedication. That's dedication.
And so I would always be practicing because every minute
of the day and even at school, Iwould always have a a coin in my
hand to practice palming and allthese different moves that are
about muscle memory. The more you practice, the more
(13:32):
just like Tiger Woods has swung a club 20 million times, I've
done a lot of card moves over and over and over, which has
helped me with mentalism. You wouldn't think it, but
sleight of hand helps with sleight of mind.
And, and so I met this mentor and Long story short, he just
opened my eyes to all these things where I was a little more
small town boy. I grew up in Wisconsin and
(13:52):
Michigan and my eyes weren't open to all these other things.
The same way somebody, you know,shows you Led Zeppelin showing
my my age and you suddenly learnall these different music and
rock and things you didn't know about.
It's kind of like a Big Brother vibe that I didn't have, and he
showed me how to Start learning what I would describe as how to
view magic from the view of the audience rather than the
(14:15):
performer. At the time, I just wanted to
buy tricks at the store and do them.
I wasn't thinking about how's the audience experiencing what
I'm doing, what's the story they're going to tell to the
next person about me? Because that's really the secret
sauce of what I do. It's what's the memory and
what's the story you tell others.
That's great. Do you have a, I'm sure you've
(14:37):
done thousands of performances. Do you have one or two that have
been your favorite or stick out and and and why do those kind of
stick out or become your favorites?
There's a few that have sentimental value.
There's like there's one where my oldest son last summer I did
a show at in West Hampton Beach Performing Arts Center and I did
(15:00):
a bit where my 8 year old son came on stage, but nobody knew
that he was my son. And it was a very funny, it's a
comedy bit and it ends in the culmination of finding out this
is my son. It was kind of like a mind
reading bit. Nobody knew.
And at the end, I, I kind of go,I don't want to spoil it in case
somebody sees it in the future, but it was so funny.
And watching him shine and watching the look on his face
with 500 people was just, it's next level.
(15:22):
Like, it's one thing for me as aperformer, but to see him and
how much he took it in and how much he'll remember that I think
for the rest of his life took itto another level entirely.
The finale of America's Got Talent is one that stays with me
because of the scope, the scale.It was so risky.
It hung by a knife's edge as to going completely wrong.
(15:46):
And that's not me trying to BS you.
I'm, I'm serious. Like, I could watch that and I,
I get sweaty palms if I watch iton YouTube because I remember
the experience and I remember the fact that there's 15 or 16
million people watching live. The clock doesn't stop if you
mess up. And the producers know how
everything works. So it's very important.
It's the only situation where the emperor have no clothing
(16:08):
because in everything else I do,nobody knows how it works.
Joe Rogan has no idea how I did what I did to him.
TV producers on ESPN don't know how I'm doing this.
But AGT is different because they have people on staff like
me. Do you understand what I mean?
So we work together and ideatingand making it the best thing on
TV because they have such a goodsection of magicians and
mentalists. So somebody like me, when I told
(16:29):
them the idea goes, but that cango wrong, like this way, this
way and this way. That's very risky.
And I go, yeah. And they go, you're going to do
that? And I go, yeah.
And they go, what? It goes wrong?
And I go, well, no risk, no reward, right?
I'm not doing singles in baseball.
I do Grand Slam walk off home runs.
And that's been what's elevated me each time.
And level jumped is people can tell.
(16:49):
When you play it safe, they can tell.
When you do things that are risky, you can feel it.
You feel the sweaty palms, you feel the hair rise on your neck.
There's an element of danger. For me, it's not that I'm going
to die, but that it will very well go wrong.
And so for that one, when it worked and it was the
culmination of all this like adrenaline and, and, and that
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show, again, I don't know if you've ever watched it, but when
you make it to the later rounds,you have less time to plan the
next round. So the highs and the lows are
just so vast where you make it onto the, you get on a Wednesday
night, you get voted in and on aThursday morning, you've had the
greatest night of your life. They go, what are you going to
do next Tuesday? It's better.
And you're like, oh, I don't know.
And so those next 48 hours are just insanity.
(17:37):
And and that's where I shine. I shine best under pressure.
One of the things that's also intriguing to me that you do is
these kind of ultra endurance races.
Talk to me a little bit about the kind of the connection
between doing things of the physical feet and the mental
feet and how those kind of play in and tie together.
(17:59):
So the the running serves a few purposes for me.
I do what's called ultra marathon.
So for those of you who are not sure what is that?
A marathon is 26.2 miles and ultra marathon is typically
anything longer, but most peoplewould quantify it as things that
are 100 miles or more. And that means 100 miles running
in a row. So that's typically non-stop.
I've run up to 153 miles in one go.
(18:21):
Crazy. I know I enjoy it for two
reasons. One is I enjoy it because I hate
it. So I think there's a real power
in doing stuff that in the moment is suffering.
You don't want to do you overcome it and then it
strengthens you. It's just like you got a RIP
muscle to grow it back stronger.And that works mentally because
for a, a lot of these races thatI've done, there are people out
(18:43):
there that are slower than me, that are older than me, that are
every quantifiable and objectivemeasure.
They should not finish when I they, they shouldn't beat me.
They shouldn't finish if I didn't finish, but yet they do.
And it's because it's mental. It's mental, like if somebody
told you, John, that you had to run right now 50 miles to save
one of your children's lives, you would do everything in your
(19:03):
power. You would crawl on your knees,
bleeding stumps. You would make it happen.
Do you understand? Your mind is capable of so much
more than what your body thinks.And I think that that's where I
push myself to an edge. And that level of mental acuity,
like a tuning and and focusing my mind in the runs has helped
me so much in my career. And also in when you're reading
(19:24):
body language and you have to becalm under pressure, which I
have to do for what I do to work.
It's kind of similar. I mentioned son Rogan like a
sniper, where when things aren'tgoing right, I have to be in
control for it to work. And I have to dig myself out of
a hole in a lot of instances. And sometimes on very big stages
with millions of people watching, I have to be calm and
the running gets me calm. My lowered heart rate, my
(19:48):
ability to just like cancel out all the noise and focus in the
moment. I think that's something that
being an athlete really helps tremendously because the mind,
body connection. I like that, you know, in
today's day and age, the youngercrowd wants kind of instant
gratification. They want to be the CEO of a
company day 2 on the job. I heard that you had hand cut
(20:11):
your own business cards at 14 and I think that's so cool.
Talk to me a little bit. About for the folks listening in
that are like they have a dream and a goal and, you know,
they're faced with a kind of world today that says they
deserve it. On day one of trying talk to me
a little bit about how that looked differently for you
(20:34):
growing up and kind of, you know, we didn't we didn't have
Facebook and Instagram influencers.
We had to go, you know, door by door or face to face to face,
and it wasn't like what it is now.
But talk to me a little bit moreabout that hustle that you have
when you're younger. And maybe speak to the folks
listening in that have a dream and a goal in their own life,
(20:54):
but maybe don't really know whathustle and grind looks like.
Absolutely. So honestly, not to like overly
self promote, but like the book is exactly this question that
you asked me. This is the playbook where yes,
I'm going to teach you to read people, but it shows you the
come up story because for every person who's successful, there
were all these failures along the way and little steps that
(21:14):
they learn from. And in a perfect world, you
learn those failures early so you can, you know, you don't
have to make them. You don't have to make those
mistakes if you can't avoid them.
And a lot of it is called like for me is stacking the deck in
your favor. In a magicians tricks, a lot of
time you don't realize is they stack the deck before they did
the trick and you even realize it.
And what you have to do is find ways in life to stack the deck
(21:36):
in your favor and to create quantifiable goals.
So I think for so many of us, wehave this idea where let's say
you're in a job you don't like and you're not making enough
money and there's all different things.
You need to boil it down and distill it.
What is it that you really want?Because a lot of the time, those
stories we tell ourselves are not what we really want.
You say I want more money. I go, well, what does that mean
(21:58):
to you? Because a lot of people say that
to me. And I remember myself when I was
a magician coming up and I saw guys who were more successful
than me. And I'm like, oh man, I want to
get paid that much for a gig. And I want to do yes.
But what is it that you really want?
Are you looking for freedom? Is it something you want to buy?
Is it the money? Like there's all different
things that when you dissect in your own mind, read your own
mind and figure out what is you want, it gets you fast track to
(22:20):
how to get there. And again, when you say this, I
set up all these things where I didn't have my parents weren't
paying for my college. Great example.
They got divorced, they moved away, they moved out of the
country. I was my own adult at the time.
I was pretty mad. All my friends go on vacation
with their parents. They got books and school paid
for. They're not worried about how to
pay rent like I am and how to get food.
(22:42):
But in hindsight, it was the biggest silver lining ever
because it forced my hand. It forced me to jump in the deep
end. I started a business.
I started a business installing and moving boat docks.
Couldn't be more different than mentalism.
But I saw a need where I had a friend who lived on a lake.
Shout out to my buddy Mark Walksburg.
His parents hated doing it. Nobody wants to do this.
(23:04):
For those who know, on lakes, the water the first day gets
warm in April. Everybody wants their boat back
in the water. If it's like a lake that freezes
over. You know this if you're in
Alaska. And so somebody's got to get in
the water and install them. Miserable work.
It's freezing cold. And we would do this for his
family because we were told to. But we noticed people will said,
hey, can you do it for us? Can you do it for us?
(23:24):
We can't get a guy to do it. And we realized how much we
could charge, how we could set up a business.
And then we started to understand just the mindset of
businesses. How do we do this effectively?
How do we market ourselves? In my case, I went to the
University of Michigan. I was a Wolverine.
He went to Michigan State, was aSpartan.
So we leaned into humor, which is we called our company
Wolverine Spartan Boat Dock. Why did we do this?
(23:46):
Because about 98% of people thatwe would market to had a
connection, either themselves, their spouse, or someone in
their family went to one of those two schools because we
lived in Michigan. So when we would get to the
house, people would always bust our chops because they cheered
for one of the two teams that goes, which one, he was The
Wolverine. And they go, oh, I'm only doing
business with him. Screw this guy.
(24:06):
Like, I know, get rid of this guy.
And we already had rapport. That's how to think like a
mentalist, understand how to winpeople over the moment you meet
them, right? How to overcome those little
moments of resistance. And so again, we didn't have
that from day one. We built that business over the
course of three summers. I saved my money instead of
(24:27):
going on vacation, instead of buying all this stuff.
I had a used Ford Tempo that I bought myself for super cheap
and I pocketed away all that money.
So that it sounds like at the moment, well, you left your job,
you to this. No, no, no.
I spent 10 years setting myself up for success.
So at the moment that that CFO said to me, what are you doing
working here, mate? I had enough money and a little
(24:49):
bit of a runway to give myself that chance, right?
You want to win the lottery, buya lottery ticket.
It's not going to fall down fromthe sky.
So there's all these things thatyou can do that you're not doing
right now. I guarantee you if I looked at
you, I look at your screen time,you've been on the phone 6 hours
today. Why don't we apply one hour of
that to learning something on YouTube or to honing a skill
(25:09):
that you already have and converting it into something
that maybe makes you money or maybe makes you connections or
maybe makes you something. I don't know what it is, but
there's so many ways nowadays tomonetize what you enjoy.
That is so true. You know, my guess is you're
getting, you know, more and morefamous every month, probably
getting pulled in a different directions.
(25:31):
Do you ever miss this simplicityof you know what it was like 20
years ago? Showing up and doing a show to
five people or whatever? Do you ever miss those early
days? I find other creative.
So for me right now, what reallyexcites me doing shows is very
fun. I don't want to by any means,
like I call it more of what my, my, my operational is.
(25:52):
I do events, so I do a lot of corporate events, private
parties, and while those are very fun and very fulfilling,
that's kind of like a band that plays their greatest hits, if
that makes sense. But a lot of bands when they get
up there and they play songs from the new album, even though
the fans don't know those songs,it's really fun for the band.
So for me, when I go on TV and what's been very unique and kind
(26:12):
of like when you when you measure success and why the
Rogen has done well on other things is because I'm constantly
innovating. I am not playing the greatest
hits even today, for example, I don't know when this is going to
come out, but at the end of thismonth and in August is when I go
do football season. I've done it the last three
years and I'm going to go to several football teams in the
NFL and college football team, some of the biggest ones you'll
(26:33):
see. Even today.
I just figured out a trick that I've never done before.
Came up with it this morning while out in a run for what I
would describe as arguably two of the most famous football
players in the world, knock on wood.
And in about 3 weeks I'm hoping to do it.
And I came up with it today. And so that excites me.
That kind of exactly what I saidwith America's Got Talent.
(26:55):
When I'm shoved into a corner, the pressure is on.
I tend to deliver. If you had told me six months
ago, come up with it. I don't feel that anxious.
Oh my God, I've got to get the even for me, 3 weeks out is
quite early. I, I did something last year for
Josh Allen and the Buffalo Billsthat I finished coming up with
the trick during a 22 mile run that ended an hour before I did
(27:19):
it. So an hour I did it at mile 18.
I'll never forget where I was inPittsburgh.
I'll never forget where I was onwhat Rd.
I was when I had a Eureka. Oh my God, I've got it.
Like there was one puzzle piece missing, right?
You know, in one spot that was missing from the trick that put
it all together. And, and I did it that day.
And that's The funny thing aboutmentalism.
(27:40):
Mentalism is not a magic trick. It's not practicing.
It's reverse engineering the human mind.
So most of my practice happens in my brain.
It's all formulating thoughts and then executing them
effectively and having all thesebackup plans.
That's great. I can't wait to watch those.
I've seen a couple of your football ones.
They're really awesome and the whole team goes nuts.
(28:01):
You know, they freak out and allthis kind of stuff.
It's really cool to see those, you know, real authentic
reactions from folks as it's happening.
I want to be mindful your time, but any last minute thoughts
here before we head off the floor is yours.
Take it away if you got any lastminute thoughts.
Let me look at your questions. If you think we got enough, we
got enough. I.
(28:23):
Think we just. I mean, I'm trying to give you
some usable advice, yeah. I don't know if you've got one
or two last ones all fired off and and call it a day.
Is is less memoir and more inspirational, so I hope people
dig it. Yeah, yeah, that's kind of my
style. I guess what one of my last
thoughts or questions would be, what's what's either next for
you or what's kind of your ultimate dream as it relates to
(28:45):
your career? What you know, what is it going
to be that you look, you know, when you're 85 or 90, sip and
Mai tais on the beach, What do you, what's going to be the
thing that you can look back on and say, wow, that was awesome,
that was a fun ride? What?
What? What's the peak of that look
like? So I, I, I'm, I like to look
forward more than backwards, which I've heard a story about
(29:08):
Elton John. I've heard an interview with him
where it's the same thing. He doesn't like rehashing
because it feels like you just think about, oh, I've already
had the greatest things behind me.
And I, I like to find that middle ground of really reveling
in the moment when I was an achievement like Joe Rogan, when
I finished, when I walked out ofhis studio in Austin, TX, I was
glowing. There was a, because I, that was
(29:28):
the culmination of years and years of wanting that.
And it just went as well as I ever could have hoped and
dreamed. And so it's, it's that moment of
enjoying it, but also thinking my mind, how am I going to top
this next, right? It should be that healthy gauge
of what do I do? And for me, I think the ultimate
level of success outside of, youknow, raising kids, family,
(29:51):
juggling the balance of, you know, life in general, but when
it comes to career is I want to promote what mentalism is
because it's a category that doesn't really exist until now.
Yes, some people have heard of it here and there, but I think
I'm bringing it more to the mainstream.
I think through my work with sports, with movie stars, with
musicians, with all of the biggest stars in the world.
And that's hopefully my goal is this next year, you're going to
(30:13):
see me with just more and more of the biggest stars in the
world, seeing them act like kids, seeing them blown away and
wowed and seeing kind of the power of the human mind.
And now especially with the bookcoming out, which is going to
take it from me being more of anentertainer to me being more of
a teacher and showing you how you can apply this to your life.
And I think those two combined, I have a big, I have a Ted Talk
(30:36):
coming out. I have a profile on one of the
on a big news show on TVI can't really tell you which one, but
you know what it's called. And just a lot of other very big
things coming out in the next four months that I'm very
excited to share kind of a new TV show that's also being
produced as we speak. And so there's just a lot of
things that I think are going tokeep making that category shine
(30:56):
where it helps not only me, but all the other mentalists.
Because my hope is that in one year, in two years, in three
years, that if you were to walk up to somebody on the street and
say to them, who's your favoritementalist rather than right now,
most people go to you, what's a mentalist?
That's the answer you get from 9out of 10.
I want 9 out of 10 people to sayto you, you mean like, oh's the
(31:17):
mentalist? That's what I want.
So I want that household name category.
And I want it not just about me,but define the same way Google
or Kleenex is. You're going to Google
something, right? That's what I want it to be.
I want my name to be attached tothis category because no one has
that slot right now. That's great.
Oh, it's one thing that I think is the most inspirational for me
(31:40):
as it relates to your story is, you know, there's there's so
much turn on the news, there's so much negativity, right.
I try to do the positive things in this world.
And I think that pretty much everything that you've done, at
least that I've seen in your career, you're trying to do
something positive here in the in this world.
And I think that that's a honestly, sometimes a path less
(32:01):
travelled. And I think it's pretty
admirable that you're kind of committed to doing something
that's going to make a positive difference in the world.
So kudos to you. I appreciate you joining me.
Look forward to reading your book.
I'm John Quick, and over the years I've had the privilege of
hosting over 400 podcast episodes, most recently the
United States of Small Business.Through all those conversations,
one thing has become clear, people are more than just what
you read about them in the headlines.
That's why I'm watching Stories Worth Hearing, a new series that
(00:20):
dives into the lives behind the headlines.
These raw, real conversations with people whose stories
deserves more than a sound bite.No script, no spin, just the
truth behind their journey. And to get today's guest is a
perfect example of just that. O's Pearlman is one of the most
captivating mentalists in the world.
(00:41):
He amazed millions on America's Got Talent ESPNNBC, but recently
he went viral for doing what most of us thought was
impossible. He guessed Joe Rogan's ATM pin
on air. Some have even called him the
most interesting guest Joe Roganhas ever had.
And if you've seen the show, youknow that's saying something.
(01:03):
But Oz's story goes far beyond mentalist from Wall Street
Careel to be to become a world class performer and an ultra
endurance athlete. His journey is all about belief,
hustle and taking big risks. So without further ado, let's.
Jump right in. Oh, I appreciate you joining me.
You know, one of the things thatI that made me stumble upon kind
(01:27):
of you and, and start to look into your story and was that a
lot of my friends saw you on JoeRogan podcast and they said that
your episode was probably the most intriguing and interesting
episode they've ever seen on JoeRogan, which is pretty nuts
because that's the biggest podcasts in the entire world.
It's consumed by more people than any news show, CNN, Fox
(01:51):
News, all those kind of things combined.
So what was it like being on JoeRogan?
Everybody's seen that ATM pin clip.
Talk to me a little bit about how how what the experience was
like. First off, I love hearing that
because you know when you do it,it's one thing, but you don't
really. There's YouTube comments, but
real life like what people talk about and say that that network
of people telling you like you got to listen to this episode.
(02:14):
I love that. I've been on and off a listener
of his for almost a decade. So I've studied the show and it
didn't. It wasn't by happenstance that I
got on there. I've been trying for years.
For years I've been working at different angles, different
people, Wheeling and dealing behind the scenes.
So I came into that show with what I would describe as
literally years of preparation as to what I thought I would be
(02:35):
doing and all different plans. Plan A, Plan B.
It's almost like an Ocean's 11 type caper where I can even tell
you that I'm already set up for things that I'm going to do when
I go back on Rogan. So, you know, before I left the
room, my goal was to punch my ticket to get back on for
another appearance, and I've already got thoughts of how to
go bigger and better the next time.
(02:55):
It was, it was an incredible experience.
It's incredibly challenging. It's kind of like the Super Bowl
for what I do, but even harder than the Super Bowl because
there's no controlling the environment.
It's Joe's show. Joe does what he wants.
Joe is not, you know, he's the biggest skeptic in the world, so
you're not going to get anythinglike over on him when people are
(03:18):
saying, I think the reason that that AFTM pin code hit people so
hard is because everyone knows. Nobody in the world goes that's
fake. You know, some people say, oh,
it's got to be fake with these football players.
Joe Rogan's not faking it for anyone, not for me, not for
presidents, not for anyone. And the genuine distress and
light anger in his eyes conveyedmore than any, you know, any
(03:40):
words could say. Like he was really startled and
kind of freaked out and started to think, like, how did you do
that? Is this nefarious?
Is this not? And by the end, I think I really
made him somewhat of a believer whereby he got a sense for what
I'm capable of doing. Yeah, I've only, I've only, I've
watched Joe Rogan pretty regularly.
I've only seen him kind of like uncomfortable in two clips. 1
(04:04):
was the guy talking about mushrooms, say he couldn't, he
couldn't talk about mushrooms anymore or he might get clipped.
And the second one was was the ATM pin.
So let's let's take me back to kind of where this all started.
I'd love to hear the story of what first got you started in
mentalism and magic. What drew you to it?
(04:24):
It's, you know, you're at the top of the game now, but I'm
sure that it took years and years and years and years of
work. So talk to me a little bit about
that. Yeah, unfortunately, it always
does, right. It never happens overnight, even
when it looks like overnight success.
I started as a magician. I started as a teenager.
That's where I kind of caught the bug.
That's usually the term is you. Most people see a magician in
(04:45):
some sort of environment. For me to happen to be on a
cruise ship, which was we did that for my 13th birthday, that
was a huge party in lieu of likeI had a bar mitzvah and we
didn't have a party like most people do.
Instead, me and my kind of grandma and my parents went on a
cruise ship with my sisters, sawa magician and was blown away,
absolutely blown away. And then I started where as most
(05:06):
people have a passing interest, they might get a magic kit, they
might, you know, do a couple tricks and then it collects dust
in a drawer. I was obsessed.
So for me, it didn't end there. It continued and it became a
self fulfilling thing where I wanted to keep learning more.
And in order for me to do that, I didn't really have the
financial means in order. My parents, my parents are
divorced right around then. So this was kind of one of those
things that filled the void for me of I would say in hindsight,
(05:29):
not dealing with the trauma and tumultuous nature of my family
was I could just zone in and 110% focus on magic and learning
magic tricks and also get that dopamine hit of seeing people
react and just kind of love whatI'm doing, which is a common
theme and thread with a lot of comedians, a lot of magicians
and performers is there's some of that childhood of like you're
(05:50):
filling in darker times by making it happy.
And I've seen that with a lot ofmy friends who happen to be
comedians and magicians and mentalists.
And, and, and honestly, that's what I started doing.
And I started performing semi professionally in order to pay
for more tricks. So in order for me to get more
stuff and do more stuff, I was doing shows.
And that was honestly my hustle throughout high school and
(06:10):
college as I kind of got better and better, started doing
restaurants, kids birthday parties, advancing to adult
parties, and then continuing on.I actually went to college, got
a degree in electrical engineering, worked on Wall
Street and you Fast forward about 10 years past me getting
into magic is when I quit my dayjob and became a full time
performer. Tell me a little bit about that
(06:32):
moment in time where you know, you have an electrical
engineering degree, you're on Wall Street, by all means, by
all worldly accounts, that's a that's already a successful
career. It's at that there has to be
some moment where you're like, I'm going to now do my dream or
side hustle full time and leave kind of the Wall Street job in
(06:54):
the rear. Tell me about what that moment
looked like for you. So it's it's always funny
because in hindsight, it always seems like that was the moment I
knew, you know, like that you always feel like in hindsight,
things are perfect. But at the moment it was a big
leap of faith. I was, you know, I had a cushy
job. I had a steady paycheck, all
things that I don't take for granted and that, you know, God
(07:15):
bless a lot of people don't have.
But I feel like at my core, I did not think this was my
calling in life, that this was where I would advance.
And if you asked me kind of thatquestion of look yourself in the
mirror, is it? Can you see yourself doing this
in 20 years? What is your automatic answer?
My automatic answer was no. You know, that's not where I
want to be. But you know, reality sometimes
(07:35):
isn't quite the same thing as dreams.
So I set myself up for success. It was a lot of the things I did
in the years leading up saving money, building a network.
I, I wrote a book, it's coming out this year.
And it really shows you how I went from an idea that became a
passion, that became a profession that became, you
know, and now a major success. But it was all those little
(07:56):
steps along the way where I kindof built up enough business
where I said, could I do this? And, and there were a few
moments there where I kind of started to believe in myself
that I'm going to give it a shot.
And eventually I, I end up quitting there.
There was a moment where I performed for the CFO of the
company because I worked for Merrill Lynch.
And what happened during this moment is he had no idea that I
(08:18):
worked for the company. I was hired as a performer.
He thought I was a professional magician.
But I, the event planners withinthe company all knew me because
I did the happy hours, you know what I mean?
I networked within the company. And it's a very like, very
precise moment that I'll never forget where I turned $1.00
bills into hundreds. And he starts laughing and you
know, this is Wall Street, they want to make money.
(08:38):
He goes, oh, we got to have you working here.
And everyone's making them laughing.
Like 5 or 6 guys are all laughing and, and I go, I do
work here, Sir. And he thought I was just
joking. He thought it was like part of
the riff. And he goes, oh, what do you
mean? And I go, no, no, seriously.
Like I, I got serious. All of a sudden I broke the 4th
1. I go, I work in global
technology services at 95 Green St.
And so he, it clicked in his mind, like this guy's not just
(08:58):
joking. And I knew too many acronyms of
the company. He goes, he's Australian goes
what the hell you doing working here, mate?
And it was for him passing comment.
And again, I, I, I haven't met him.
It's funny, James Gorman in many, many years, but I doubt he
would ever remember. But it's those moments that
somebody says the right words inthe right place at the right
time. It's like puzzle pieces that
connect. And I just kind of said to
(09:19):
myself, what am I doing working here?
It was more existential and deep.
And that was kind of where I decided I'm going to quit.
I'm going to go for this. And, you know, lengthy story,
but that was just about 20 yearsago in 2005.
And this is all the stuff that'sbuilt up and happened since.
That's awesome. So let's talk a little bit a
(09:39):
pivot and talk a little bit about this book that's coming
out and I'd love to hear a little bit of background from
it. I know it's I think it's up for
pre sale. We'll put a wherever this lands,
we'll put a link to the book. Talk to me a little bit about
why you wrote the book and what folks could expect that they
take a look at it. Absolutely.
So I think for so many years I always get asked the same
(10:02):
question at the end of every show.
How do you do it right? That is the question people ask.
And after a while I've dissectedthe fact that I don't think
people actually want to know howI do it, because what I have is
a very finite skill set that I'musing primarily for the purpose
of entertainment, which is what looks like reading people's
minds. But I don't read minds.
(10:23):
I am not supernatural. I am not psychic.
I don't claim to have any powersthat you don't have.
Rather what I do is read people,which all of us are capable of
doing, and we do at certain degrees.
Just most of us haven't honed that skill.
The same way a pianist might know a tune or two, but you
might not make it to Carnegie Hall.
So my book is what it does. It shows you how to apply the
(10:44):
principles of mentalism, but instead of for the form of
entertainment to your life at home, at work, in your
relationships, and utilize my skills.
So rather than being a mentalist, which there are lots
of books, if you want to learn to be a mentalist, they're
videos. Good luck.
It's a lot of work and it's years and years.
I wanted you to start to learn how to think like a mentalist
(11:04):
and give you kind of simple strategies and tools that you
can use and pick up quickly. Like, nobody wants to read a
book and spend years and years, frankly, you know, that's why
there's not that many mentalists.
You want to learn something in 10 minutes and still be using it
in 10 years. And that was what the book is
all about is how to find those life hacks that you can use to
(11:26):
supercharge your memory. That's a huge one.
How to win people over and influence them.
Like my Bible from 2 decades agowas How to Win Friends and
Influence People by Dale Carnegie, which is just tried
and true tactics of how to like,like it says win people over.
How to get them to like you because if they like you, they
want to do business with you, they want to be friends with
you, and they want to be around you.
(11:48):
All of those things are very important, whether you're trying
to build relationships or make money.
And so that's that's really whatthe book is all about.
And it dives into some of my funstories, you know, kind of crazy
things with celebrities, things I've done kind of getting behind
the curtain of what I've done, but then teaching every chapter
at the end. Takeaways.
Here's what you're going to learn.
(12:08):
Here's what you're going to do. That's awesome.
So along your journey, did you have somebody that kind of saw
your potential, maybe was a heroin your life, somebody that was
super inspirational? Tell me who that person was and
and maybe why they were here in your life.
(12:28):
So I'm a huge believer in mentors and, and, and that's
like a that's one chapter of thebook is how to find those people
where it's always very overwhelming and daunting when
you have an idea, a concept and you want to see yourself as a
success and you're like, I don'tknow all the steps.
How do I get there? Find someone who's what you want
to be 5 years and 10 years from now and find a way for them to
(12:48):
open up to you. So for me, I got very lucky when
I was a teenager, I met a guy, his name is Bruce Kessler, where
what he was kind of my Magic mentor for a few years where we
randomly saw each other at a Borders at a Borders bookstore.
RIP doesn't even exist anymore and I would always have cards in
my hands from age 13 to 18. You literally could not find
(13:09):
without cards. You ready for this, John Quick?
I found waterproof cards and I would practice in the shower.
That's a true psycho. Waterproof cards in the shower.
You talk about dedication. That's dedication.
And so I would always be practicing because every minute
of the day and even at school, Iwould always have a a coin in my
hand to practice palming and allthese different moves that are
about muscle memory. The more you practice, the more
(13:32):
just like Tiger Woods has swung a club 20 million times, I've
done a lot of card moves over and over and over, which has
helped me with mentalism. You wouldn't think it, but
sleight of hand helps with sleight of mind.
And, and so I met this mentor and Long story short, he just
opened my eyes to all these things where I was a little more
small town boy. I grew up in Wisconsin and
(13:52):
Michigan and my eyes weren't open to all these other things.
The same way somebody, you know,shows you Led Zeppelin showing
my my age and you suddenly learnall these different music and
rock and things you didn't know about.
It's kind of like a Big Brother vibe that I didn't have, and he
showed me how to Start learning what I would describe as how to
view magic from the view of the audience rather than the
(14:15):
performer. At the time, I just wanted to
buy tricks at the store and do them.
I wasn't thinking about how's the audience experiencing what
I'm doing, what's the story they're going to tell to the
next person about me? Because that's really the secret
sauce of what I do. It's what's the memory and
what's the story you tell others.
That's great. Do you have a, I'm sure you've
(14:37):
done thousands of performances. Do you have one or two that have
been your favorite or stick out and and and why do those kind of
stick out or become your favorites?
There's a few that have sentimental value.
There's like there's one where my oldest son last summer I did
a show at in West Hampton Beach Performing Arts Center and I did
(15:00):
a bit where my 8 year old son came on stage, but nobody knew
that he was my son. And it was a very funny, it's a
comedy bit and it ends in the culmination of finding out this
is my son. It was kind of like a mind
reading bit. Nobody knew.
And at the end, I, I kind of go,I don't want to spoil it in case
somebody sees it in the future, but it was so funny.
And watching him shine and watching the look on his face
with 500 people was just, it's next level.
(15:22):
Like, it's one thing for me as aperformer, but to see him and
how much he took it in and how much he'll remember that I think
for the rest of his life took itto another level entirely.
The finale of America's Got Talent is one that stays with me
because of the scope, the scale.It was so risky.
It hung by a knife's edge as to going completely wrong.
(15:46):
And that's not me trying to BS you.
I'm, I'm serious. Like, I could watch that and I,
I get sweaty palms if I watch iton YouTube because I remember
the experience and I remember the fact that there's 15 or 16
million people watching live. The clock doesn't stop if you
mess up. And the producers know how
everything works. So it's very important.
It's the only situation where the emperor have no clothing
(16:08):
because in everything else I do,nobody knows how it works.
Joe Rogan has no idea how I did what I did to him.
TV producers on ESPN don't know how I'm doing this.
But AGT is different because they have people on staff like
me. Do you understand what I mean?
So we work together and ideatingand making it the best thing on
TV because they have such a goodsection of magicians and
mentalists. So somebody like me, when I told
(16:29):
them the idea goes, but that cango wrong, like this way, this
way and this way. That's very risky.
And I go, yeah. And they go, you're going to do
that? And I go, yeah.
And they go, what? It goes wrong?
And I go, well, no risk, no reward, right?
I'm not doing singles in baseball.
I do Grand Slam walk off home runs.
And that's been what's elevated me each time.
And level jumped is people can tell.
(16:49):
When you play it safe, they can tell.
When you do things that are risky, you can feel it.
You feel the sweaty palms, you feel the hair rise on your neck.
There's an element of danger. For me, it's not that I'm going
to die, but that it will very well go wrong.
And so for that one, when it worked and it was the
culmination of all this like adrenaline and, and, and that
(17:14):
show, again, I don't know if you've ever watched it, but when
you make it to the later rounds,you have less time to plan the
next round. So the highs and the lows are
just so vast where you make it onto the, you get on a Wednesday
night, you get voted in and on aThursday morning, you've had the
greatest night of your life. They go, what are you going to
do next Tuesday? It's better.
And you're like, oh, I don't know.
And so those next 48 hours are just insanity.
(17:37):
And and that's where I shine. I shine best under pressure.
One of the things that's also intriguing to me that you do is
these kind of ultra endurance races.
Talk to me a little bit about the kind of the connection
between doing things of the physical feet and the mental
feet and how those kind of play in and tie together.
(17:59):
So the the running serves a few purposes for me.
I do what's called ultra marathon.
So for those of you who are not sure what is that?
A marathon is 26.2 miles and ultra marathon is typically
anything longer, but most peoplewould quantify it as things that
are 100 miles or more. And that means 100 miles running
in a row. So that's typically non-stop.
I've run up to 153 miles in one go.
(18:21):
Crazy. I know I enjoy it for two
reasons. One is I enjoy it because I hate
it. So I think there's a real power
in doing stuff that in the moment is suffering.
You don't want to do you overcome it and then it
strengthens you. It's just like you got a RIP
muscle to grow it back stronger.And that works mentally because
for a, a lot of these races thatI've done, there are people out
(18:43):
there that are slower than me, that are older than me, that are
every quantifiable and objectivemeasure.
They should not finish when I they, they shouldn't beat me.
They shouldn't finish if I didn't finish, but yet they do.
And it's because it's mental. It's mental, like if somebody
told you, John, that you had to run right now 50 miles to save
one of your children's lives, you would do everything in your
(19:03):
power. You would crawl on your knees,
bleeding stumps. You would make it happen.
Do you understand? Your mind is capable of so much
more than what your body thinks.And I think that that's where I
push myself to an edge. And that level of mental acuity,
like a tuning and and focusing my mind in the runs has helped
me so much in my career. And also in when you're reading
(19:24):
body language and you have to becalm under pressure, which I
have to do for what I do to work.
It's kind of similar. I mentioned son Rogan like a
sniper, where when things aren'tgoing right, I have to be in
control for it to work. And I have to dig myself out of
a hole in a lot of instances. And sometimes on very big stages
with millions of people watching, I have to be calm and
the running gets me calm. My lowered heart rate, my
(19:48):
ability to just like cancel out all the noise and focus in the
moment. I think that's something that
being an athlete really helps tremendously because the mind,
body connection. I like that, you know, in
today's day and age, the youngercrowd wants kind of instant
gratification. They want to be the CEO of a
company day 2 on the job. I heard that you had hand cut
(20:11):
your own business cards at 14 and I think that's so cool.
Talk to me a little bit. About for the folks listening in
that are like they have a dream and a goal and, you know,
they're faced with a kind of world today that says they
deserve it. On day one of trying talk to me
a little bit about how that looked differently for you
(20:34):
growing up and kind of, you know, we didn't we didn't have
Facebook and Instagram influencers.
We had to go, you know, door by door or face to face to face,
and it wasn't like what it is now.
But talk to me a little bit moreabout that hustle that you have
when you're younger. And maybe speak to the folks
listening in that have a dream and a goal in their own life,
(20:54):
but maybe don't really know whathustle and grind looks like.
Absolutely. So honestly, not to like overly
self promote, but like the book is exactly this question that
you asked me. This is the playbook where yes,
I'm going to teach you to read people, but it shows you the
come up story because for every person who's successful, there
were all these failures along the way and little steps that
(21:14):
they learn from. And in a perfect world, you
learn those failures early so you can, you know, you don't
have to make them. You don't have to make those
mistakes if you can't avoid them.
And a lot of it is called like for me is stacking the deck in
your favor. In a magicians tricks, a lot of
time you don't realize is they stack the deck before they did
the trick and you even realize it.
And what you have to do is find ways in life to stack the deck
(21:36):
in your favor and to create quantifiable goals.
So I think for so many of us, wehave this idea where let's say
you're in a job you don't like and you're not making enough
money and there's all different things.
You need to boil it down and distill it.
What is it that you really want?Because a lot of the time, those
stories we tell ourselves are not what we really want.
You say I want more money. I go, well, what does that mean
(21:58):
to you? Because a lot of people say that
to me. And I remember myself when I was
a magician coming up and I saw guys who were more successful
than me. And I'm like, oh man, I want to
get paid that much for a gig. And I want to do yes.
But what is it that you really want?
Are you looking for freedom? Is it something you want to buy?
Is it the money? Like there's all different
things that when you dissect in your own mind, read your own
mind and figure out what is you want, it gets you fast track to
(22:20):
how to get there. And again, when you say this, I
set up all these things where I didn't have my parents weren't
paying for my college. Great example.
They got divorced, they moved away, they moved out of the
country. I was my own adult at the time.
I was pretty mad. All my friends go on vacation
with their parents. They got books and school paid
for. They're not worried about how to
pay rent like I am and how to get food.
(22:42):
But in hindsight, it was the biggest silver lining ever
because it forced my hand. It forced me to jump in the deep
end. I started a business.
I started a business installing and moving boat docks.
Couldn't be more different than mentalism.
But I saw a need where I had a friend who lived on a lake.
Shout out to my buddy Mark Walksburg.
His parents hated doing it. Nobody wants to do this.
(23:04):
For those who know, on lakes, the water the first day gets
warm in April. Everybody wants their boat back
in the water. If it's like a lake that freezes
over. You know this if you're in
Alaska. And so somebody's got to get in
the water and install them. Miserable work.
It's freezing cold. And we would do this for his
family because we were told to. But we noticed people will said,
hey, can you do it for us? Can you do it for us?
(23:24):
We can't get a guy to do it. And we realized how much we
could charge, how we could set up a business.
And then we started to understand just the mindset of
businesses. How do we do this effectively?
How do we market ourselves? In my case, I went to the
University of Michigan. I was a Wolverine.
He went to Michigan State, was aSpartan.
So we leaned into humor, which is we called our company
Wolverine Spartan Boat Dock. Why did we do this?
(23:46):
Because about 98% of people thatwe would market to had a
connection, either themselves, their spouse, or someone in
their family went to one of those two schools because we
lived in Michigan. So when we would get to the
house, people would always bust our chops because they cheered
for one of the two teams that goes, which one, he was The
Wolverine. And they go, oh, I'm only doing
business with him. Screw this guy.
(24:06):
Like, I know, get rid of this guy.
And we already had rapport. That's how to think like a
mentalist, understand how to winpeople over the moment you meet
them, right? How to overcome those little
moments of resistance. And so again, we didn't have
that from day one. We built that business over the
course of three summers. I saved my money instead of
(24:27):
going on vacation, instead of buying all this stuff.
I had a used Ford Tempo that I bought myself for super cheap
and I pocketed away all that money.
So that it sounds like at the moment, well, you left your job,
you to this. No, no, no.
I spent 10 years setting myself up for success.
So at the moment that that CFO said to me, what are you doing
working here, mate? I had enough money and a little
(24:49):
bit of a runway to give myself that chance, right?
You want to win the lottery, buya lottery ticket.
It's not going to fall down fromthe sky.
So there's all these things thatyou can do that you're not doing
right now. I guarantee you if I looked at
you, I look at your screen time,you've been on the phone 6 hours
today. Why don't we apply one hour of
that to learning something on YouTube or to honing a skill
(25:09):
that you already have and converting it into something
that maybe makes you money or maybe makes you connections or
maybe makes you something. I don't know what it is, but
there's so many ways nowadays tomonetize what you enjoy.
That is so true. You know, my guess is you're
getting, you know, more and morefamous every month, probably
getting pulled in a different directions.
(25:31):
Do you ever miss this simplicityof you know what it was like 20
years ago? Showing up and doing a show to
five people or whatever? Do you ever miss those early
days? I find other creative.
So for me right now, what reallyexcites me doing shows is very
fun. I don't want to by any means,
like I call it more of what my, my, my operational is.
(25:52):
I do events, so I do a lot of corporate events, private
parties, and while those are very fun and very fulfilling,
that's kind of like a band that plays their greatest hits, if
that makes sense. But a lot of bands when they get
up there and they play songs from the new album, even though
the fans don't know those songs,it's really fun for the band.
So for me, when I go on TV and what's been very unique and kind
(26:12):
of like when you when you measure success and why the
Rogen has done well on other things is because I'm constantly
innovating. I am not playing the greatest
hits even today, for example, I don't know when this is going to
come out, but at the end of thismonth and in August is when I go
do football season. I've done it the last three
years and I'm going to go to several football teams in the
NFL and college football team, some of the biggest ones you'll
(26:33):
see. Even today.
I just figured out a trick that I've never done before.
Came up with it this morning while out in a run for what I
would describe as arguably two of the most famous football
players in the world, knock on wood.
And in about 3 weeks I'm hoping to do it.
And I came up with it today. And so that excites me.
That kind of exactly what I saidwith America's Got Talent.
(26:55):
When I'm shoved into a corner, the pressure is on.
I tend to deliver. If you had told me six months
ago, come up with it. I don't feel that anxious.
Oh my God, I've got to get the even for me, 3 weeks out is
quite early. I, I did something last year for
Josh Allen and the Buffalo Billsthat I finished coming up with
the trick during a 22 mile run that ended an hour before I did
(27:19):
it. So an hour I did it at mile 18.
I'll never forget where I was inPittsburgh.
I'll never forget where I was onwhat Rd.
I was when I had a Eureka. Oh my God, I've got it.
Like there was one puzzle piece missing, right?
You know, in one spot that was missing from the trick that put
it all together. And, and I did it that day.
And that's The funny thing aboutmentalism.
(27:40):
Mentalism is not a magic trick. It's not practicing.
It's reverse engineering the human mind.
So most of my practice happens in my brain.
It's all formulating thoughts and then executing them
effectively and having all thesebackup plans.
That's great. I can't wait to watch those.
I've seen a couple of your football ones.
They're really awesome and the whole team goes nuts.
(28:01):
You know, they freak out and allthis kind of stuff.
It's really cool to see those, you know, real authentic
reactions from folks as it's happening.
I want to be mindful your time, but any last minute thoughts
here before we head off the floor is yours.
Take it away if you got any lastminute thoughts.
Let me look at your questions. If you think we got enough, we
got enough. I.
(28:23):
Think we just. I mean, I'm trying to give you
some usable advice, yeah. I don't know if you've got one
or two last ones all fired off and and call it a day.
Is is less memoir and more inspirational, so I hope people
dig it. Yeah, yeah, that's kind of my
style. I guess what one of my last
thoughts or questions would be, what's what's either next for
you or what's kind of your ultimate dream as it relates to
(28:45):
your career? What you know, what is it going
to be that you look, you know, when you're 85 or 90, sip and
Mai tais on the beach, What do you, what's going to be the
thing that you can look back on and say, wow, that was awesome,
that was a fun ride? What?
What? What's the peak of that look
like? So I, I, I'm, I like to look
forward more than backwards, which I've heard a story about
(29:08):
Elton John. I've heard an interview with him
where it's the same thing. He doesn't like rehashing
because it feels like you just think about, oh, I've already
had the greatest things behind me.
And I, I like to find that middle ground of really reveling
in the moment when I was an achievement like Joe Rogan, when
I finished, when I walked out ofhis studio in Austin, TX, I was
glowing. There was a, because I, that was
(29:28):
the culmination of years and years of wanting that.
And it just went as well as I ever could have hoped and
dreamed. And so it's, it's that moment of
enjoying it, but also thinking my mind, how am I going to top
this next, right? It should be that healthy gauge
of what do I do? And for me, I think the ultimate
level of success outside of, youknow, raising kids, family,
(29:51):
juggling the balance of, you know, life in general, but when
it comes to career is I want to promote what mentalism is
because it's a category that doesn't really exist until now.
Yes, some people have heard of it here and there, but I think
I'm bringing it more to the mainstream.
I think through my work with sports, with movie stars, with
musicians, with all of the biggest stars in the world.
And that's hopefully my goal is this next year, you're going to
(30:13):
see me with just more and more of the biggest stars in the
world, seeing them act like kids, seeing them blown away and
wowed and seeing kind of the power of the human mind.
And now especially with the bookcoming out, which is going to
take it from me being more of anentertainer to me being more of
a teacher and showing you how you can apply this to your life.
And I think those two combined, I have a big, I have a Ted Talk
(30:36):
coming out. I have a profile on one of the
on a big news show on TVI can't really tell you which one, but
you know what it's called. And just a lot of other very big
things coming out in the next four months that I'm very
excited to share kind of a new TV show that's also being
produced as we speak. And so there's just a lot of
things that I think are going tokeep making that category shine
(30:56):
where it helps not only me, but all the other mentalists.
Because my hope is that in one year, in two years, in three
years, that if you were to walk up to somebody on the street and
say to them, who's your favoritementalist rather than right now,
most people go to you, what's a mentalist?
That's the answer you get from 9out of 10.
I want 9 out of 10 people to sayto you, you mean like, oh's the
(31:17):
mentalist? That's what I want.
So I want that household name category.
And I want it not just about me,but define the same way Google
or Kleenex is. You're going to Google
something, right? That's what I want it to be.
I want my name to be attached tothis category because no one has
that slot right now. That's great.
Oh, it's one thing that I think is the most inspirational for me
(31:40):
as it relates to your story is, you know, there's there's so
much turn on the news, there's so much negativity, right.
I try to do the positive things in this world.
And I think that pretty much everything that you've done, at
least that I've seen in your career, you're trying to do
something positive here in the in this world.
And I think that that's a honestly, sometimes a path less
(32:01):
travelled. And I think it's pretty
admirable that you're kind of committed to doing something
that's going to make a positive difference in the world.
So kudos to you. I appreciate you joining me.
Look forward to reading your book.
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