May 11, 2022 • 23 mins
Anne Ahola Ward joins Kelsey Jones for a great discussion about when it's good to hide your thoughts and when it's beneficial, especially for family and friends. We also talk about when it IS beneficial to share your thoughts and opinions with the people who need to hear it.
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You can also connect with @StoryShout on Twitter, LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram. Kelsey is @wonderwall7 on Twitter.
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And don’t forget to leave us a review and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and wherever else you listen to podcasts.
You can also connect with @StoryShout on Twitter, LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram. Kelsey is @wonderwall7 on Twitter.
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Episode Transcript
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Unknown (00:03):
You're listening to the story shout podcast hosted by
Kelsey Jones. We're a weeklypodcast dedicated to
destigmatizing failure andlaughing at our normalcy. Don't
forget to subscribe and leave areview on iTunes.
Hi, everyone, Welcome to Storyshout. My name is Kelsey Jones.
(00:24):
And I'm joined here by an awardand is someone that I've known
for a long time. I know we'vespoken together at conferences,
and just staying in touch you'vealways been really fun to see
throughout the year. So. Andthank you so much for joining
me.
Thanks for having me. Excited tobe here.
So and I can't wait to discusswhat do you suck at?
(00:48):
Well, I appreciate that. It's,it's it goes against my nature
to say I'm bad at anything, as atype A person is so this, I
appreciate your topic onmultiple levels, because it made
me it really made me dig alittle deeper than I think I
have another interviews, but Ithink I very much suck at hiding
my feelings. But beyond that, Iwould actually say hiding my
(01:12):
thoughts. Because when I saidfeelings, I was like, Well,
what's really underneath thatare my thoughts, I have been
known to be asked to deliver badmessages to people, the things
people don't want to say, isearly as my childhood, you know,
getting embroiled in like myparents relationship and others
(01:32):
that not too much. But you knowwhat I mean? I have always been
that person that sort ofunafraid to say things that need
to be said. But I definitelywould say if I suck at anything
professionally and personally,it's hiding how I feel in any
given situation. And when I'mthinking and when I'm truly
(01:54):
thinking, it's not always agreat time to share with people
what they're doing wrong, or whysomething's not happening. But
that is very firmly how I earnedmyself the nickname The mother
of startups.
Yeah, I know, I, as you weretalking, I was thinking, well,
sometimes it's good to be theperson who's telling everyone
(02:15):
what they need to hear, becauseI'm sure you have to. But I've
been in several meetings wherethere's almost an elephant in
the room, because no one wantsto talk about the real issue.
And I've always lean moretowards bringing it up,
especially as I've grown throughmy career, not in the beginning.
But you know, after having overa decade of experience in my
belt, I think is really when Istarted gaining traction. And so
(02:38):
it's a good thing. But then Iget when it's a bad thing too,
because sometimes you need touse tact to make sure that the
outcome is effective. And if youdon't do that, it can really
cause issues that are worse thanyou know, the real issue at hand
deepen.
Absolutely. And keep in mind,I'm a consultant, you know, I
run an agency. So it can be acareer limiting move, to tell
(03:03):
someone what they really need tohear. But I have learned that I
have to do that. Becauseotherwise I can't stand by and
let something happen if I don'twant it to happen, or I don't
think it should happen. If I seemistakes being made. And I know
that that has gotten me firedbefore. I'm very firm on that,
(03:25):
that I know that. But thedifference between me now and me
10 years ago is that I am not asworried about it as I once was,
you know, because after writingan O'Reilly book and being on TV
however many times like youstart to get that confidence
where you're like, wait aminute, my opinions might
actually be good. It wouldcertainly be easier to hide them
(03:48):
in certain instances. But, youknow, being raised by you know,
a man who sought out fraud Myfather was a Fraud Examiner at
one point president of the CFPsof Texas and Certified Fraud
examiner's and was in the paperwhen I was a kid, like we had a
(04:08):
one point our trash was gonethrough through looking for
documents in a lawsuit when Iwas a little kid, and I was
like, Whoa, it's like my dadwasn't like other dads. So I
didn't realize that until laterin life. But like that sort of
questioning of things, wassomething that was ingrained in
me should always question whysomething's happening, which I
(04:29):
and then in turn took, as, youknow, way to grow, you know, way
to grow websites, a way to growcompanies is constantly looking
and evaluating what is working,what is not working. But I
learned early on that you haveto be that person that says this
isn't working sometimes which isnot popular, but you have to be
(04:52):
able to say that to truly grow.
Because if you're not thenyou're just enabling a status
quo. You're not really helping.
So I have been that agent ofchange for a long time, which I
used to feel very guilty about.
But now I'm like, Hey, you getwhat you get? Isn't that? Like,
I'm so cool about it, but Iforgot about it.
(05:14):
I mean, you're right, though.
Because if you if a company'shiring you to consult, and I
guess I mean, the collectiveview. They want your opinion,
and they want to know whenthings are wrong. So it makes
sense that you would be expectedto do that. But one thing I was
thinking of when you're kind oftalking about your experience
is, does it bother you whenpeople aren't upfront or don't
(05:37):
say their feelings, because itbothers me, because I feel like,
I'm like, I'm putting myself outhere, I'm saying what needs to
be said, and then there's peoplethat kind of pass the buck, or
you could tell they're upset,and they just won't say
anything, and it's gonna make itworse. I mean, that really
bothers me too. Itabsolutely bothers me, and I
will terminate a businessrelationship. If there's
(06:00):
deception, there's, there'slying, and then there's lying by
omission. Or maybe we're not intouch with our feelings, or what
we really think that is, okay, Ican work with that. But when
there's like, outright, likelying about things, and that's
usually especially when it comesto a product, I have dropped
clients for that I don't havevery many, I don't want to make
(06:21):
it sound like I'm harsh. But Ihave terminated, you know, over
the years, a couple for just,you know, lying about where the
product is, or like, you know,that that bothers me when when
someone doesn't know what theywant. But they can't admit it.
That's what frustrates me, it'slike, a lot of people need help.
And they don't want to admitthat they need help. And so
(06:45):
that's always a little harder topull out of them. But I've
learned how to do that over theyears. And just sort of
presenting like, well, here'syour options, here's your
options. But definitely, I thinkthe only organizations I have
seen where that has run rampant.
And keep in mind, I work withtech startups, there's there's a
(07:08):
lot of cowboy elements to that.
Because when there's aninstitution that is fraught with
nepotism, or other things thatare toxic, there is not an
environment of learning. There'snot an environment where it's
okay to be wrong. It's sort oflike a popularity contest, or
those are typically the onesthat I find the hardest to work
(07:30):
with and help. Because if you'renot open to hearing feedback, or
even thinking in your mind thatthere might be an alternative
reality of questioningauthority. If we're just, you
know, the CEO was my friend andhe hired me, I'm not gonna go
against him. Like that's never awinning proposition. It's a
(07:51):
hard, it's a hard battle tofight because the personal has
sifted in there so much that theprofessional is clouded. And so
that's how you end up with, youknow, lack of professional
judgment. And those are theinstitutions I find the hardest
to help.
Yes, I think you're right on themoney. Like, if it's in the
(08:12):
culture, to not really stand upand say anything, then a lot of
issues come from that. Have youever seen something similar in
your personal life, like I had afriend years ago that she just
was not honest with herself withthis relationship she had, and I
tried to help her. And it waslike, she had to realize it for
(08:33):
herself. And we kind of grewapart because it wasn't like she
was in danger or anything. But Ijust, there were just a bunch of
issues that she needed to figureout on her own. And so I don't
know if you've had that kind ofthing happened with friends or
family too.
Absolutely. I did. Someone Igrew up with, ended up in an
(08:54):
abusive relationship. And, youknow, I helped her get out of
it. hurt her child, I helpedthem escape. And sure enough,
she went back to them and calledme a second time. So hard. And,
you know, I called her familybecause I knew them all. And,
you know, they're like, Yeah, wedid this three times, too. And
(09:16):
then I was like, Oh, my gosh, Imy hell am I really helping
here? And so I went to myparents because, you know, who
else do you go to for epicadvice, your your family, people
who love you. And they knew herand her situation as well. And
they said, Look, you have becomea part of this. You are not
qualified for this. And so oneof the hardest things I ever had
(09:39):
to do was I called abusehelplines. And I called the some
national resources and said,This is a situation what do I do
to help her? And they said, Youhave they said, basically what
my parents said, which is youhave become a part of this. She
is in denial of her situationand looking for help and you
were very Very nice to want tohelp her and, you know, did a
(10:03):
lot for this person. Butultimately, I became a part of
the problem because I wasfacilitating this situation,
which I didn't really know. So Ithink getting expert help was
the best thing I did for herbecause I was like, Look, here
are three numbers, you can call,here's a place you can go, you
can no longer come to my house,I'm so sorry. Like, because I'm
(10:28):
just facilitating the situationcontinuing because eventually
she would. He'd say the rightthing, and she go back. And so
it ended up where thatprofessional was able to get her
that help get her to see thingsin a different way. But I was
wondering a few of our friendsthat that went for it, because
how could you not if you seesomeone you care about
struggling, you want to helpthem. So the hardest thing I had
(10:52):
to do for that relationship wasto say, I can't actually help
you anymore, because I'm notreally helping you. That was
hard. For me. That was very,very, I can't even imagine how
difficult that must have been. Ithink about too, and I've gotten
too wrapped up in other people'sissues, or, you know, I say what
needs to be said. And then likeyou said, I'm now a part of it,
(11:12):
whether that's at work or withfriends, and then I, it's almost
like, I get too deep. And I Idon't know, I've always been
someone that people have told methings like even strangers have
come up to me and startedtelling me about their divorce
and things like that, like Imust have that type of energy. I
don't know why. But that happenswith I've had that happen with
(11:34):
colleagues before where they'vebrought me too much into their
personal life. And it's just,it's like too much information
and too many feelings. Andthat's really hard to reset up
the boundaries after you'vealready been a little bit
involved. But I do agree withyou that there's a point where
you being involved isn't reallyhelpful. And that's hard,
(11:56):
because you want to help, butthere's some times when helping
makes it worse.
Absolutely. And what came out ofthat was probably one of the
best pieces of advice my latefather gave me that really just
like, you know, in times likethis, when you're faced with a
(12:18):
friend and this and you know,people kind of clobbering you
because I have the same thing Ihad, I had a and I'll tell you
that advice in just a second.
But I actually had a friend ofmy mom's when I was like 11 In
the bathroom start telling meher marriage problems. And so
this is I've had this my wholelife. And she's like, you're an
old soul. You're an old soul.
(12:41):
And I like asked my mom, andshe's like what she did. But it
was, I've had that too. And Ithink it's partially just being
an understanding, compassionateperson, you're capable. Like, I
know, you could get anythingdone, you wanted to just like I
could. And so there are peoplethat are attracted to that,
because they don't have thatthey don't have that confidence,
(13:02):
or, you know, or good in acrisis. But what he said to me,
which I think changed, a lot ofhow I operated after that was
being a good friend doesn't meanmaking their problems, your
problems. Oh, wow, that thatjust like, kapow, that moment,
my dad, my dad gave me thestrength. And he just had those,
(13:27):
oh my god, he was amazing. Hehad those lines. But that that
in that was in a situationrelated to the same friend that
I just talked about. So thatgave me the power to say, okay,
like, I don't have to ownwhatever's going on over here.
And the same has happened for mewith clients. Like I see them
step into something with anothervendor, I see them, you know,
(13:48):
I've been called into HR crises,I've been called into all sorts
of things. And so I'll say, youknow, that's the best practice,
I would go over here, I wouldlook this up and I just sort of,
I don't I I'm careful to nottake ownership professionally or
personally, of things that arenot mine to own. And having the
permission to do that is a very,very helpful thing. I mean, it's
(14:11):
a boundary right it's a boundarybut but it is good to realize
like you don't actually havehave to make their problem yours
to be their friend. And thatthat was a pivotal moment for me
and I never got sucked intoanything like that again.
God, I love that I am gonnaremember that like forever now
(14:32):
that's so good. And that's whathappens to me because I I have
so much empathy and I can feelwhen people are upset like when
I see you know that I'm close toif I see them if they come over
or something and I can sensethings about how a situation is
going. But you're totally right.
That doesn't mean I have to makeit my problem just because I'm
aware of a situation or I sensea situation doesn't mean I have
(14:55):
to be in the situation. I mean,we Want to make sure people are
okay? Whether that's a friend oryou know, maybe a client you
work with, you want to make surethat they're not getting taken
advantage of. But you can stillset boundaries where you're
known as that person, that'sgoing to give good advice. But
that doesn't mean you're goingto be involved in everything. So
(15:16):
I love that. So what do youconsider to be a good friend or
working relationship in terms oftelling the truth or telling up
front? Because I think we'vetalked about when you do it, or
when other people do it toomuch. But like, when is it? What
do you expect from arelationship to do for you,
like, tell you the truth? Doesthat make sense?
(15:41):
Yeah, I think it's a verydifficult thing to tell someone
what they need to hear, not whatthey want to hear. But yeah,
what I have what I have learnedas a person walking into a
situation with more power,because I have the knowledge or
I have the experience, like in aprofessional setting, you know,
(16:01):
I'm walking in there as an agentof change, I've made
recommendations that have cost,you know, changed people's
lives, cost, jobs, things likethat. You have, you have to do,
I think when you're approachingit, if you're the person, I
think all messages come across alittle bit better with kindness.
(16:25):
I think that it's it's better tohave empathy delivering a bad
message than to just say it asit is. And to really gauge if
the person is even open tohearing it, because sometimes
they're not there yet. And youkind of have to lead them down
the path. I will even ask sometimes, do you want to know what
I think? Oh, that's good. Yeah.
Do you want to hear what I woulddo if I were you? Because I
(16:49):
think, you know, we all fallinto this trap with our friends
where, you know, you know whatto do in a situation, you can
see it coming. But when youdispense that advice carte
blanche, and you're just like,well, you should do this. And
you should do that. Sometimesthey don't really feel like
you're listening to them.
Sometimes people just want tosometimes people just want
(17:11):
to talk, right? They don't wantsolutions.
So I will say and I have friendsthat I've said this to like,
Look, I am paid to tell peoplewhat to do for a living. I'm a
consultant. So are you lookingfor fix it? And are you looking
for listen to it? Because ofyou, you want to get that bottle
of wine and you want to, youknow, assassinate someone's
(17:32):
character? Sure. Right? We cando it. But you need to tell me
which and you're looking for.
And I've done that before,because it has occurred to me
over the years that being a verycapable leader person does come
across to people as uncaring, itcomes across as bossy, it comes
across as well. She didn'tlisten, she doesn't care, when
(17:53):
that's really not the case. I'mjust someone who's going to
always try to solve a problem.
And so by approaching withempathy and kindness, you can
generally get through anysituation if the person is
receptive to it, becausesometimes people just clients or
friends, they just want tocomplain, or they just want
someone to hear them. They justwant to know that they're being
(18:15):
seen. And that's, that's okay.
Because if that gets you to thenext stage, then you're you
know, sometimes you have toacknowledge to move on.
Yes, I agree. It's, it's funny,we're talking about this today,
because I'm actually reading abook right now called difficult
conversations. And it's aboutlike, how to have difficult
conversations, whether it's workor personal. And it's really
(18:37):
good for anyone listening. Andradical candor is another one
that's really good. But I dothink leading with empathy, and
also understanding your part inthe conversation. And if it's
not just you giving advice, ifit's like us about a situation
that happened, thinking aboutwhat you could have done
differently, even if somebodyinterpreted what you did wrong.
(19:01):
I don't know. It's hard. That'swhat the book is recommending.
And I agree, but it's also hardbecause you don't always want to
think that you're doingsomething wrong and hearing you
talk about, oh, you know, Imight come across as bossy or
whatever I've had that happen toand when you brought it up, I
thought about my experience andfor me, and I know we're almost
(19:21):
at the end of our time, but forme it's been hard for as a woman
because I think I'm I'm seen aslike more bossy, and that might
be like a good closing thing tokind of talk about if you have
been received more negativelygiving your honest feedback
because you're a woman and ifthat would happen if you were a
man.
(19:41):
Absolutely gender dynamics playa very heavy part into it. There
is you know, pre me too. It wasa bigger issue. Pre me too. In
Silicon Valley. I you know,there's this sort of the myth of
you're either a princess or abitch And that that was very
(20:02):
much the case is, you know, youwere either sweet and kind and
got along with everyone and dideverything or you, you know,
what a nag, and so that thatstereotype was ever present. And
I think it really started tochange with the advent of me
too. There are differentconversations happening within
startups. But it is a very realthing. As a woman, I think it
(20:25):
bothered me more in my 30s. Butnow I think I'm, I'm a little
more secure than to worry aboutthat perception. If, if we're
having those thoughts, and we'renot having a professional
conversation, you know what Imean? And you have to be
fearless. You have to befearless to lead people. And so,
(20:46):
for me to lead you into asuccessful search program or a
successful, you know, onlinegrowth, I have to not be afraid
of what you might think of mepersonally, I will be my best
and most professional, butwhatever issues you have, are
probably not with me. They'rewith powerful women, or they're
with something that happened inyour past, maybe your mom was
(21:08):
me. So I also think a lot of it,people map on their past
experiences to people, youremind them of someone and so
you just have to know that whensomeone has an issue like that
most of the time, it's them, notyou. And so again, you're not
taking ownership of of that I,you know, remember the lady I
(21:29):
knew in Texas years ago said,you know, everybody's got their
mischief. And I kind of likedthat. I was like, I got some
mischief. But but you know,like, you don't need to own
everybody's mischief either. Youknow what I mean? Like, if you
have issues with powerful women,then I'm probably not the SEO
for you.
(21:50):
Yeah, if it's going to be atrigger for you, then it's not
going to be a good situation.
Exactly. Already going into it.
So I love that. Well, I feellike I could talk to you for a
long time about this, especiallyabout gender stuff, because I
think, oh, yeah, thoughts onthat, but, but I know we're kind
of wrapping up. So if anybodywants to learn more about what
(22:11):
you do, and about your book, oranything else you have going on,
where can they find you?
Well, I'm most commonly found onTwitter. My handle is at
Ambonnay nn E B is in boy Oh Tand M and bought it everything
so you can find me all over theinternet is and bought my
(22:32):
moniker of many yearsof that. Well, and thank you so
much for joining me and thanksto everyone else for listening.
And until next timethank you for listening to the
story shout podcast. Don'tforget to review us on iTunes
and connect with us on socialmedia at story shout or online
at story shout.co Until nexttime, stay normal
You're listening to the story shout podcast hosted by
Kelsey Jones. We're a weeklypodcast dedicated to
destigmatizing failure andlaughing at our normalcy. Don't
forget to subscribe and leave areview on iTunes.
Hi, everyone, Welcome to Storyshout. My name is Kelsey Jones.
(00:24):
And I'm joined here by an awardand is someone that I've known
for a long time. I know we'vespoken together at conferences,
and just staying in touch you'vealways been really fun to see
throughout the year. So. Andthank you so much for joining
me.
Thanks for having me. Excited tobe here.
So and I can't wait to discusswhat do you suck at?
(00:48):
Well, I appreciate that. It's,it's it goes against my nature
to say I'm bad at anything, as atype A person is so this, I
appreciate your topic onmultiple levels, because it made
me it really made me dig alittle deeper than I think I
have another interviews, but Ithink I very much suck at hiding
my feelings. But beyond that, Iwould actually say hiding my
(01:12):
thoughts. Because when I saidfeelings, I was like, Well,
what's really underneath thatare my thoughts, I have been
known to be asked to deliver badmessages to people, the things
people don't want to say, isearly as my childhood, you know,
getting embroiled in like myparents relationship and others
(01:32):
that not too much. But you knowwhat I mean? I have always been
that person that sort ofunafraid to say things that need
to be said. But I definitelywould say if I suck at anything
professionally and personally,it's hiding how I feel in any
given situation. And when I'mthinking and when I'm truly
(01:54):
thinking, it's not always agreat time to share with people
what they're doing wrong, or whysomething's not happening. But
that is very firmly how I earnedmyself the nickname The mother
of startups.
Yeah, I know, I, as you weretalking, I was thinking, well,
sometimes it's good to be theperson who's telling everyone
(02:15):
what they need to hear, becauseI'm sure you have to. But I've
been in several meetings wherethere's almost an elephant in
the room, because no one wantsto talk about the real issue.
And I've always lean moretowards bringing it up,
especially as I've grown throughmy career, not in the beginning.
But you know, after having overa decade of experience in my
belt, I think is really when Istarted gaining traction. And so
(02:38):
it's a good thing. But then Iget when it's a bad thing too,
because sometimes you need touse tact to make sure that the
outcome is effective. And if youdon't do that, it can really
cause issues that are worse thanyou know, the real issue at hand
deepen.
Absolutely. And keep in mind,I'm a consultant, you know, I
run an agency. So it can be acareer limiting move, to tell
(03:03):
someone what they really need tohear. But I have learned that I
have to do that. Becauseotherwise I can't stand by and
let something happen if I don'twant it to happen, or I don't
think it should happen. If I seemistakes being made. And I know
that that has gotten me firedbefore. I'm very firm on that,
(03:25):
that I know that. But thedifference between me now and me
10 years ago is that I am not asworried about it as I once was,
you know, because after writingan O'Reilly book and being on TV
however many times like youstart to get that confidence
where you're like, wait aminute, my opinions might
actually be good. It wouldcertainly be easier to hide them
(03:48):
in certain instances. But, youknow, being raised by you know,
a man who sought out fraud Myfather was a Fraud Examiner at
one point president of the CFPsof Texas and Certified Fraud
examiner's and was in the paperwhen I was a kid, like we had a
(04:08):
one point our trash was gonethrough through looking for
documents in a lawsuit when Iwas a little kid, and I was
like, Whoa, it's like my dadwasn't like other dads. So I
didn't realize that until laterin life. But like that sort of
questioning of things, wassomething that was ingrained in
me should always question whysomething's happening, which I
(04:29):
and then in turn took, as, youknow, way to grow, you know, way
to grow websites, a way to growcompanies is constantly looking
and evaluating what is working,what is not working. But I
learned early on that you haveto be that person that says this
isn't working sometimes which isnot popular, but you have to be
(04:52):
able to say that to truly grow.
Because if you're not thenyou're just enabling a status
quo. You're not really helping.
So I have been that agent ofchange for a long time, which I
used to feel very guilty about.
But now I'm like, Hey, you getwhat you get? Isn't that? Like,
I'm so cool about it, but Iforgot about it.
(05:14):
I mean, you're right, though.
Because if you if a company'shiring you to consult, and I
guess I mean, the collectiveview. They want your opinion,
and they want to know whenthings are wrong. So it makes
sense that you would be expectedto do that. But one thing I was
thinking of when you're kind oftalking about your experience
is, does it bother you whenpeople aren't upfront or don't
(05:37):
say their feelings, because itbothers me, because I feel like,
I'm like, I'm putting myself outhere, I'm saying what needs to
be said, and then there's peoplethat kind of pass the buck, or
you could tell they're upset,and they just won't say
anything, and it's gonna make itworse. I mean, that really
bothers me too. Itabsolutely bothers me, and I
will terminate a businessrelationship. If there's
(06:00):
deception, there's, there'slying, and then there's lying by
omission. Or maybe we're not intouch with our feelings, or what
we really think that is, okay, Ican work with that. But when
there's like, outright, likelying about things, and that's
usually especially when it comesto a product, I have dropped
clients for that I don't havevery many, I don't want to make
(06:21):
it sound like I'm harsh. But Ihave terminated, you know, over
the years, a couple for just,you know, lying about where the
product is, or like, you know,that that bothers me when when
someone doesn't know what theywant. But they can't admit it.
That's what frustrates me, it'slike, a lot of people need help.
And they don't want to admitthat they need help. And so
(06:45):
that's always a little harder topull out of them. But I've
learned how to do that over theyears. And just sort of
presenting like, well, here'syour options, here's your
options. But definitely, I thinkthe only organizations I have
seen where that has run rampant.
And keep in mind, I work withtech startups, there's there's a
(07:08):
lot of cowboy elements to that.
Because when there's aninstitution that is fraught with
nepotism, or other things thatare toxic, there is not an
environment of learning. There'snot an environment where it's
okay to be wrong. It's sort oflike a popularity contest, or
those are typically the onesthat I find the hardest to work
(07:30):
with and help. Because if you'renot open to hearing feedback, or
even thinking in your mind thatthere might be an alternative
reality of questioningauthority. If we're just, you
know, the CEO was my friend andhe hired me, I'm not gonna go
against him. Like that's never awinning proposition. It's a
(07:51):
hard, it's a hard battle tofight because the personal has
sifted in there so much that theprofessional is clouded. And so
that's how you end up with, youknow, lack of professional
judgment. And those are theinstitutions I find the hardest
to help.
Yes, I think you're right on themoney. Like, if it's in the
(08:12):
culture, to not really stand upand say anything, then a lot of
issues come from that. Have youever seen something similar in
your personal life, like I had afriend years ago that she just
was not honest with herself withthis relationship she had, and I
tried to help her. And it waslike, she had to realize it for
(08:33):
herself. And we kind of grewapart because it wasn't like she
was in danger or anything. But Ijust, there were just a bunch of
issues that she needed to figureout on her own. And so I don't
know if you've had that kind ofthing happened with friends or
family too.
Absolutely. I did. Someone Igrew up with, ended up in an
(08:54):
abusive relationship. And, youknow, I helped her get out of
it. hurt her child, I helpedthem escape. And sure enough,
she went back to them and calledme a second time. So hard. And,
you know, I called her familybecause I knew them all. And,
you know, they're like, Yeah, wedid this three times, too. And
(09:16):
then I was like, Oh, my gosh, Imy hell am I really helping
here? And so I went to myparents because, you know, who
else do you go to for epicadvice, your your family, people
who love you. And they knew herand her situation as well. And
they said, Look, you have becomea part of this. You are not
qualified for this. And so oneof the hardest things I ever had
(09:39):
to do was I called abusehelplines. And I called the some
national resources and said,This is a situation what do I do
to help her? And they said, Youhave they said, basically what
my parents said, which is youhave become a part of this. She
is in denial of her situationand looking for help and you
were very Very nice to want tohelp her and, you know, did a
(10:03):
lot for this person. Butultimately, I became a part of
the problem because I wasfacilitating this situation,
which I didn't really know. So Ithink getting expert help was
the best thing I did for herbecause I was like, Look, here
are three numbers, you can call,here's a place you can go, you
can no longer come to my house,I'm so sorry. Like, because I'm
(10:28):
just facilitating the situationcontinuing because eventually
she would. He'd say the rightthing, and she go back. And so
it ended up where thatprofessional was able to get her
that help get her to see thingsin a different way. But I was
wondering a few of our friendsthat that went for it, because
how could you not if you seesomeone you care about
struggling, you want to helpthem. So the hardest thing I had
(10:52):
to do for that relationship wasto say, I can't actually help
you anymore, because I'm notreally helping you. That was
hard. For me. That was very,very, I can't even imagine how
difficult that must have been. Ithink about too, and I've gotten
too wrapped up in other people'sissues, or, you know, I say what
needs to be said. And then likeyou said, I'm now a part of it,
(11:12):
whether that's at work or withfriends, and then I, it's almost
like, I get too deep. And I Idon't know, I've always been
someone that people have told methings like even strangers have
come up to me and startedtelling me about their divorce
and things like that, like Imust have that type of energy. I
don't know why. But that happenswith I've had that happen with
(11:34):
colleagues before where they'vebrought me too much into their
personal life. And it's just,it's like too much information
and too many feelings. Andthat's really hard to reset up
the boundaries after you'vealready been a little bit
involved. But I do agree withyou that there's a point where
you being involved isn't reallyhelpful. And that's hard,
(11:56):
because you want to help, butthere's some times when helping
makes it worse.
Absolutely. And what came out ofthat was probably one of the
best pieces of advice my latefather gave me that really just
like, you know, in times likethis, when you're faced with a
(12:18):
friend and this and you know,people kind of clobbering you
because I have the same thing Ihad, I had a and I'll tell you
that advice in just a second.
But I actually had a friend ofmy mom's when I was like 11 In
the bathroom start telling meher marriage problems. And so
this is I've had this my wholelife. And she's like, you're an
old soul. You're an old soul.
(12:41):
And I like asked my mom, andshe's like what she did. But it
was, I've had that too. And Ithink it's partially just being
an understanding, compassionateperson, you're capable. Like, I
know, you could get anythingdone, you wanted to just like I
could. And so there are peoplethat are attracted to that,
because they don't have thatthey don't have that confidence,
(13:02):
or, you know, or good in acrisis. But what he said to me,
which I think changed, a lot ofhow I operated after that was
being a good friend doesn't meanmaking their problems, your
problems. Oh, wow, that thatjust like, kapow, that moment,
my dad, my dad gave me thestrength. And he just had those,
(13:27):
oh my god, he was amazing. Hehad those lines. But that that
in that was in a situationrelated to the same friend that
I just talked about. So thatgave me the power to say, okay,
like, I don't have to ownwhatever's going on over here.
And the same has happened for mewith clients. Like I see them
step into something with anothervendor, I see them, you know,
(13:48):
I've been called into HR crises,I've been called into all sorts
of things. And so I'll say, youknow, that's the best practice,
I would go over here, I wouldlook this up and I just sort of,
I don't I I'm careful to nottake ownership professionally or
personally, of things that arenot mine to own. And having the
permission to do that is a very,very helpful thing. I mean, it's
(14:11):
a boundary right it's a boundarybut but it is good to realize
like you don't actually havehave to make their problem yours
to be their friend. And thatthat was a pivotal moment for me
and I never got sucked intoanything like that again.
God, I love that I am gonnaremember that like forever now
(14:32):
that's so good. And that's whathappens to me because I I have
so much empathy and I can feelwhen people are upset like when
I see you know that I'm close toif I see them if they come over
or something and I can sensethings about how a situation is
going. But you're totally right.
That doesn't mean I have to makeit my problem just because I'm
aware of a situation or I sensea situation doesn't mean I have
(14:55):
to be in the situation. I mean,we Want to make sure people are
okay? Whether that's a friend oryou know, maybe a client you
work with, you want to make surethat they're not getting taken
advantage of. But you can stillset boundaries where you're
known as that person, that'sgoing to give good advice. But
that doesn't mean you're goingto be involved in everything. So
(15:16):
I love that. So what do youconsider to be a good friend or
working relationship in terms oftelling the truth or telling up
front? Because I think we'vetalked about when you do it, or
when other people do it toomuch. But like, when is it? What
do you expect from arelationship to do for you,
like, tell you the truth? Doesthat make sense?
(15:41):
Yeah, I think it's a verydifficult thing to tell someone
what they need to hear, not whatthey want to hear. But yeah,
what I have what I have learnedas a person walking into a
situation with more power,because I have the knowledge or
I have the experience, like in aprofessional setting, you know,
(16:01):
I'm walking in there as an agentof change, I've made
recommendations that have cost,you know, changed people's
lives, cost, jobs, things likethat. You have, you have to do,
I think when you're approachingit, if you're the person, I
think all messages come across alittle bit better with kindness.
(16:25):
I think that it's it's better tohave empathy delivering a bad
message than to just say it asit is. And to really gauge if
the person is even open tohearing it, because sometimes
they're not there yet. And youkind of have to lead them down
the path. I will even ask sometimes, do you want to know what
I think? Oh, that's good. Yeah.
Do you want to hear what I woulddo if I were you? Because I
(16:49):
think, you know, we all fallinto this trap with our friends
where, you know, you know whatto do in a situation, you can
see it coming. But when youdispense that advice carte
blanche, and you're just like,well, you should do this. And
you should do that. Sometimesthey don't really feel like
you're listening to them.
Sometimes people just want tosometimes people just want
(17:11):
to talk, right? They don't wantsolutions.
So I will say and I have friendsthat I've said this to like,
Look, I am paid to tell peoplewhat to do for a living. I'm a
consultant. So are you lookingfor fix it? And are you looking
for listen to it? Because ofyou, you want to get that bottle
of wine and you want to, youknow, assassinate someone's
(17:32):
character? Sure. Right? We cando it. But you need to tell me
which and you're looking for.
And I've done that before,because it has occurred to me
over the years that being a verycapable leader person does come
across to people as uncaring, itcomes across as bossy, it comes
across as well. She didn'tlisten, she doesn't care, when
(17:53):
that's really not the case. I'mjust someone who's going to
always try to solve a problem.
And so by approaching withempathy and kindness, you can
generally get through anysituation if the person is
receptive to it, becausesometimes people just clients or
friends, they just want tocomplain, or they just want
someone to hear them. They justwant to know that they're being
(18:15):
seen. And that's, that's okay.
Because if that gets you to thenext stage, then you're you
know, sometimes you have toacknowledge to move on.
Yes, I agree. It's, it's funny,we're talking about this today,
because I'm actually reading abook right now called difficult
conversations. And it's aboutlike, how to have difficult
conversations, whether it's workor personal. And it's really
(18:37):
good for anyone listening. Andradical candor is another one
that's really good. But I dothink leading with empathy, and
also understanding your part inthe conversation. And if it's
not just you giving advice, ifit's like us about a situation
that happened, thinking aboutwhat you could have done
differently, even if somebodyinterpreted what you did wrong.
(19:01):
I don't know. It's hard. That'swhat the book is recommending.
And I agree, but it's also hardbecause you don't always want to
think that you're doingsomething wrong and hearing you
talk about, oh, you know, Imight come across as bossy or
whatever I've had that happen toand when you brought it up, I
thought about my experience andfor me, and I know we're almost
(19:21):
at the end of our time, but forme it's been hard for as a woman
because I think I'm I'm seen aslike more bossy, and that might
be like a good closing thing tokind of talk about if you have
been received more negativelygiving your honest feedback
because you're a woman and ifthat would happen if you were a
man.
(19:41):
Absolutely gender dynamics playa very heavy part into it. There
is you know, pre me too. It wasa bigger issue. Pre me too. In
Silicon Valley. I you know,there's this sort of the myth of
you're either a princess or abitch And that that was very
(20:02):
much the case is, you know, youwere either sweet and kind and
got along with everyone and dideverything or you, you know,
what a nag, and so that thatstereotype was ever present. And
I think it really started tochange with the advent of me
too. There are differentconversations happening within
startups. But it is a very realthing. As a woman, I think it
(20:25):
bothered me more in my 30s. Butnow I think I'm, I'm a little
more secure than to worry aboutthat perception. If, if we're
having those thoughts, and we'renot having a professional
conversation, you know what Imean? And you have to be
fearless. You have to befearless to lead people. And so,
(20:46):
for me to lead you into asuccessful search program or a
successful, you know, onlinegrowth, I have to not be afraid
of what you might think of mepersonally, I will be my best
and most professional, butwhatever issues you have, are
probably not with me. They'rewith powerful women, or they're
with something that happened inyour past, maybe your mom was
(21:08):
me. So I also think a lot of it,people map on their past
experiences to people, youremind them of someone and so
you just have to know that whensomeone has an issue like that
most of the time, it's them, notyou. And so again, you're not
taking ownership of of that I,you know, remember the lady I
(21:29):
knew in Texas years ago said,you know, everybody's got their
mischief. And I kind of likedthat. I was like, I got some
mischief. But but you know,like, you don't need to own
everybody's mischief either. Youknow what I mean? Like, if you
have issues with powerful women,then I'm probably not the SEO
for you.
(21:50):
Yeah, if it's going to be atrigger for you, then it's not
going to be a good situation.
Exactly. Already going into it.
So I love that. Well, I feellike I could talk to you for a
long time about this, especiallyabout gender stuff, because I
think, oh, yeah, thoughts onthat, but, but I know we're kind
of wrapping up. So if anybodywants to learn more about what
(22:11):
you do, and about your book, oranything else you have going on,
where can they find you?
Well, I'm most commonly found onTwitter. My handle is at
Ambonnay nn E B is in boy Oh Tand M and bought it everything
so you can find me all over theinternet is and bought my
(22:32):
moniker of many yearsof that. Well, and thank you so
much for joining me and thanksto everyone else for listening.
And until next timethank you for listening to the
story shout podcast. Don'tforget to review us on iTunes
and connect with us on socialmedia at story shout or online
at story shout.co Until nexttime, stay normal
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