April 13, 2022 • 23 mins
Jon Henshaw joins Kelsey Jones this week as we discuss the struggle that comes with being creative: constantly starting new projects and taking side quests to constantly "improve" things, only to our detriment. We talk about when "done is better than perfect," some side projects we're working on, and more!
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And don’t forget to leave us a review and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and wherever else you listen to podcasts.
You can also connect with @StoryShout on Twitter, LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram. Kelsey is @wonderwall7 on Twitter.
To learn more about StoryShout podcast advertising opportunities and guest openings, visit us at StoryShout.co
And don’t forget to leave us a review and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and wherever else you listen to podcasts.
You can also connect with @StoryShout on Twitter, LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram. Kelsey is @wonderwall7 on Twitter.
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Episode Transcript
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Unknown (00:03):
You're listening to the story shout podcast hosted by
Kelsey Jones. We're a weeklypodcast dedicated to
destigmatizing failure andlaughing at our normalcy. Don't
forget to subscribe and leave areview on iTunes.
Hi, everyone, Welcome to Storyshout. My name is Kelsey Jones
(00:24):
and I'm joined here today byJohn Henshaw. John is a friend
of mine from the marketingworld. I think we met speaking
at state of search in Austin, ifI remember right, so that could
be it. Remember, it's,everything's a blur? And then
after two years of nothingness,I have no idea. Yeah, yeah.
Where I've Beensomewhere in a past life we met.
(00:45):
So John, thank you for comingon. Yeah. Have you been here? So
John, what do you suck at?
Well, I guess I have to likepick one.
Right? Yes, just,exactly. I would say that, as it
relates to the kind of stuffthat we do. I, I suck at trying
(01:06):
to do too many things. Two athing. And, and the thing that
probably comes to mind, althoughit's somewhat of a distant
memory, I guess is the yearsthat Raven, with Raven Tools,
we, you know, we started offsimple and, and it was sort of
(01:29):
like, we're going to have a ranktracker, and we're going to read
some reports or whatever. And,and it's only gonna be for SEO.
And I think that it's reallyhard as an entrepreneur, and
wanting to grow a business, tonot want to do all the things.
And I could never overcome that.
(01:51):
I was never able to overcomethat. When I was doing that
software, and you know, wewanted to add social, we wanted
to add paid, we wanted to wewanted to do all the things when
there were already companiesdoing those things, and it was
outside of our wheelhouse.
Particularly mine, I mean, minebeing SEO. So it was it was
(02:12):
along the lines of, you know,what we're going to do all
things social, we're going towe're going to do all the social
posting all the stuff like that.
And of course, you got bufferand and tools out there that
have perfected this, and they'reconstantly improving and
perfecting on it. And I thinkthe the biggest issue was with
(02:33):
that was that we we couldn'tmake it awesome. When when
you're trying to make all thethings you aren't able to ever
get the focus and the attentionthat each one needs to make it
really good to make it look thebest to make it super
(02:53):
competitive, especially whenthere are companies already out
there that that is all they do.
And they do it really well. Andthat's something that I'm not
sure I'm over yet, like I'vegotten over that. I mean, and
and so I've been very slowly onthe side working on my version
of a minimalist, ContactRelationship Manager. And every
single time I look at it, I workon it, I think about a talk to
(03:17):
the developer working on it, itis an absolute complete struggle
for me to not be like, Okay, weneed to ask this, we need to add
this task manager, how are wegonna do calendars and you know,
whatever, whatever. And when allof my past experience says I
shouldn't be doing that. That'sa bad idea, John, you should
perfect the core features ofthis thing, which is managing a
(03:38):
contact, adding a contact,working with your contacts.
Before you go down that road.
I think it's hard in techespecially. And this could
probably apply to anywhere. Butyou see other apps or services
or software like doing thatwell, or what you think of well,
(03:59):
not even competitors to you. Butlike so I'm building an app as a
side project. And I just hiredthe developer this week. And we
had to narrow down whatcomponents to start with in the
app or whatever. And she wantedto add like a community feature
to it. And I'm like, that's noteven, we can't add that. Like
that's gonna be a whole otherthing. Like community building,
(04:22):
adding a community likecomponent to an app is a whole
other dimension that the appdoesn't even need. And so I had
to like put the brakes on it andjust say, you know, we can't do
that right now. Like right nowwe need minimum viable product
or whatever, like just buildsomething. But it's hard when
you're creative, and you're anentrepreneur and you have all
these ideas that could work. Andso you want to see if they will
(04:45):
work but that doesn't mean thatthey should work or that you
should do them.
It's funny because the developeryou're using, it describes the
blessing and curse type ofthing, which is you want to work
with a software developer, I'massuming you can't code with
anything like I can't. And soand so you want somebody who is
(05:08):
going to offer thosesuggestions, you know, be the
guide for how your technology isgoing to work and that type of
thing, you know, you're going tohave an idea of conceptually,
what is probably going to begood and reasonable. But for the
most part, you really need thisperson to make good decisions.
And, and, and like I said, havethose ideas. And so it's that
(05:30):
that's like a case of, I likethe way you're thinking, you
know, like, like, Thank you forwaiting to make this better. And
and I think we would probablyagree that a community feature
is not a horrible idea. Yeah,there are plenty of reasons why
wouldn't want to do it, and I'msure you probably would feel the
same. But but their mind is inthe right place, you know,
(05:53):
around that, like, oh, you know,this is, you know, you want that
creativity from that person. Andat the same time, you know,
it's, it's, I think, where youwere just going with it, which
is, but that's not what we'rebuilding right now. Like,
really, truly, I think he mayhave said it, really, truly,
truly need to have a, an MVPthat just does what it's
(06:16):
supposed to do and worked reallywell. And that can be the gravy
that comes later. That can bethe thing that helps grow the
audience for it or, you know,spread the word.
Yeah. And I think what's hard,what is hard when it's not your
main project, or job orwhatever? Is I keep thinking
about that, quote, I thinkFacebook used to say it like
(06:37):
yours when they started back. Idon't want to I don't you know,
I know they're controversialnow. But back in the day, when,
when they were smaller, they allI think Mark Zuckerberg always
said Done is better thanperfect. And I tried to think
about that, like, okay, in allareas of my life, not just my
side projects, but evenespecially my side projects,
(06:57):
like, what can I just get done,where it's not bad, like, I
don't want to make it crappy, orlike, rush in and make it not
work. But what makes it done,and we can move on to the next
step of the building processversus Where's what's our
version of perfect, where wecould add everything all at
once.
So this takes me back to sort ofwhat I was talking about
(07:17):
earlier, which is, I want tooffer some clarity, from my
perspective, like, what I thinkabout, like done and perfect and
that type of thing, which is thehabitual chronic issue that I
had, when I was at Raven for allthose years was, it was done,
but then left. Meaning meaning,and actually, some of it is
(07:41):
definitely my fault, justbecause if we're talking about
like, our, the thing I suck at,but the other thing had to do
with, I have partners and andthere's a whole company being
run, and we're trying to grow.
And so for a lot of otherpeople, when I finally got this
thing done, you know as in youbuilt in it, the first idea
that, you know, you built it,and it technically works, but
(08:03):
it's not complete, and it needsa lot more to go with it. And
this is not going to be goodenough, and everybody would move
on. And I found that to beextremely frustrating. versus
the other approach of not addingon things not moving on, which
would be I so I've been workingon my thing for like three
(08:26):
years. I'm on like my third orfourth developer because it just
everything like one guy had atornado take out everything he
had. And that was Yeah, yeah, Imean, just like horrible stuff
for some of these people. Andit's, it's awful. But it has
delayed and Lane Lane delay, andI've had to start over and that
type of thing. But but with withthis, it's done to me versus
(08:47):
perfect. Has to do with labels.
So the first initial done willbe what we might call an alpha,
you know, but it's not done. Butit's done enough that I'll I'll
feel comfortable enough to, tomaybe have like private invites,
had people come in and startplaying around with this type of
(09:08):
thing. And even when it's readyto take anybody, it won't be
perfect. And it won't be done.
But it will be done. And I knowthis is like probably making no
sense because I'm I'm thinkingabout my own words, right now
does that make a lot of sensebut the thing I think that I
want to bring attention to inregards to like what a sucked in
the past and what I reallyreally want to get over and
(09:30):
change in my life when Iapproach this stuff is that
instead of trying to add a bunchof new features, after gets like
publicly released and everybodycan have it and I know it's not
perfect and stuff trying to adda bunch of stuff. Spin the time
to continue to perfect the thingthat you have released. Just
don't add a bunch of stuff justperfect. What you have for 612
(09:52):
months, whatever it might be,just keep taking the feedback.
You're gonna have have a ton ofpeople, or I'll have a ton of
people or whatever that willcome and be like, Oh, we should
do this? Or can you add thatagainst, you know, it'd be
really cool if he did thisthing. And I can listen to that
I can write it down, but I needto stay away from it, I need to
not do it, what I need to do isreact to the feedback for the
(10:15):
features that exist here. Andnow, you know, when when they're
using it? And? And essentially,because because in order for
something, especially for us,for people who are just like,
individual, yeah, who's hiringsome, some developer, the only
way we're ever going to becompetitive with this, or, you
know, have the market prove itas something that's worthy of,
(10:38):
you know, people using and itcould be become something is
that attention to detail thatattention to even it will never
reach perfection, we willcontinually be like, How can I
tweak this? How can I make thatbetter? How can I make it a
little faster? How can I, howcan I make it so there's just
little to zero friction to dothese very common things that
(11:02):
people do with this app, withoutadding all the other crap.
I love that. Because I thinkit's so easy to get distracted
with things that you didn't do.
It's, it's easy to miss thethings that should be improved.
Because you're so I thinkthere's in our culture, it's
like, there, you should alwaysbe bigger and better than what
(11:24):
it was before. But things can bebetter and still be the same. If
that makes any sense at all,like, totally like features are
the same, but they can work somuch better. And that's, and
that's really what probablyusers want. Like if I if I want
an email service or something, Ijust want it to work, I don't
(11:45):
want to, oh, create a websitefrom your emails, or like, say,
or share your emails on social,here's all these share buttons,
like I don't even want that ifI'm signing up for an email
provider, I just want to sendemails to my email list. And I
think in tech, we forget aboutthat. So that's a really good
point, like focusing onimproving what you already have,
(12:08):
instead of chasing the next big,like release or feature.
It's really difficult to do it.
I mean, as as, you know, usbeing fellow creators, fellow
entrepreneurs, makers, you wantto make, you want to do
everything in me, says, Keepmaking it more awesome, and add
(12:30):
all these things. And there's alot of pressure to do that, I
mean, that you'll, you'll end upgetting feedback from people who
do use it, where they're justlike, it'd be perfect if I just
had this one feature. And it'sreally hard to ignore that. And
so that and I suck at ignoringthat I suck at ignoring, suck at
not doing a socket, not going toadd all the things and so that's
(12:52):
why this time around, I'm justgonna do my best to remain
disciplined to see if thisapproach works. Yeah,
unfortunately, my life doesn'tdepend on it, you know, it's, it
is a side project, I have a mainjob and I'm fine, you know, but
and so I'm a, I need to remindmyself of that, like, this
doesn't have to be some giantfinancial success, you know,
(13:15):
course I, we dream of thosethings we want it to be but but
I'm building it because I wantit to exist. Like, the thing I'm
building doesn't exist, I'vewanted to build it for forever.
So I'm gonna build it, it mightbe a giant money stuck. Because
I end up being the only personwho uses it. But at least it
exists and I'm happy and I madesomething and, you know,
(13:35):
whatever. So I don't know thatit's just, I hope I could do it.
I hope I hope that 612 monthsor, you know, whatever down the
road after this thing gets doneand is out there that I just I
haven't done the completeopposite of what I just talked
about. Yeah, it continued tosuck.
Right? The app I work I'mworking on it's the same thing.
(13:58):
It's like I want it so I'mthat's why I'm building it and,
but those are the best projectsbecause I think it just it is
the the journey itself isrewarding not to be like cheesy
or cliche, but like to see itget built and finished, I think
will be satisfying.
It is it is for us. I mean, I'msaying like you have to be the
(14:20):
right person. I mean, it'sextremely satisfying. It feels
really good. And then of courseI would say at least for me, it
has less to do about the moneyand if it ever makes any it has
more to do with the excitement Iget from somebody using
something that I also lovethat's i that craft is that I
(14:42):
made that that came from me Imean that's sort of like the
makers dream you know? And and Ithink it's it's amazing if
something like that could go onto be a source of revenue and
you know, be your business oryour lifestyle business or
whatever but But just knowingthat you've poured yourself into
(15:04):
something and something that youreally feel strongly about you
want to exist. And that getsvalidated by the market. You
know, that's, that's, that'skind of exciting. So I don't
know. I mean, that's, there's alittle bit of that that drives
me in it kind of reminds me alittle bit of something I know
you do. I think you do a lot,you know, which is like writing
and stuff, same type of thing.
Like it's, yeah, there's a lotof gratification. Just, I don't
(15:26):
know, emotionally,intellectually, I have no idea,
you know, that. We're just like,awesome. Like, I wrote something
that was important to me that Ithought might be important to
the people and people, and itresonated with a lot of people.
And that there's a really goodfeeling about that. So
yeah, I agree. And that's what Iwas going to ask you, as you
(15:47):
were talking that I thoughtabout is, I think, this process
and probably why it's hard tojust work on what you already
have is because it feels sopersonal. And it feels so at
least for me, I feel vulnerablemaking it because it whether I'm
writing something or you know,building this idea for this app
(16:08):
that I've had for years, I feelvery vulnerable, making that
because I've had the idea andbeen excited about it for so
long. That to finally do it islike very scary for me. And so I
think that, like dealing withthat in my brain, as well as the
logistics of it has have justbeen a really long road because
it's like, you finally get tothe point where you can make it
and I've had some, you know,stop and go moments where I just
(16:32):
am like, not ready, because I'mjust so scared that like, what
if it doesn't work out. And soI've also been working through
the men, you know, the mental, Idon't know, emotional side of
it, as well. And I think whenyou're super creative, you you
struggle with that, too.
So I have this life philosophythat I've adhered to for as long
(16:54):
as I can remember, and it'scalled the philosophy of lowered
expectations. And, and it worksfor me, I mean, I don't I don't
think it's a depressing way tolive your life, I think it's, it
has to do with, I don't expectmuch from other people, I don't
expect them and just don't Imean, like, like, if I if I'm
(17:15):
going to the DMV, if I'm goingflying, i My expectations are so
low, that I expect for delays, Iexpect for something stupid to
happen, I expect for it to notgo smoothly. That's my
expectation. So I enter it at amuch slower pace than everybody
else. And when things gosmoothly, or holy crap, like
(17:38):
things go really well like aboveand beyond, you know, something
goes smoothly. It, it makes lifea lot more enjoyable. Like I
have found that, for me. Mysecret to unlocking more
happiness in life as opposed todepression or something is, is
to lower my expectations, youknow, like, and the thing is, is
(18:00):
I think it's consistent withreality, which is it? Yeah,
we're all just people, right?
Doing our best, we're all alittle crazy, we're a little
crazy, very true. And, and, andwe don't know what each other is
going through in life. And so Iwould say that a better way to
say that philosophy of lowerexpectations than it is more of
(18:22):
a practice of empathy. Meaningwhen you leave the door, and you
go out into the world, justimmediately start practice
practicing empathy and assumethat, you know, somebody is, you
know, they're probably being anidiot, because things are hard
for them. Right, they're havinga bad day, or eventually it
wears off and you get angry,angry at the world, tweet,
(18:45):
whatever airlines and dowhatever but, but I find that if
you approach it that way, youget a little bit of cushion
before you reach that place.
I love that I so I needed tohave more empathy for myself and
also not have as highexpectation like, not everything
(19:08):
has to be so scary.
Yeah, well empathy for yourselfand, and everybody else like in
other words, trying to approachit kind of kind of like how, by
the way my backgroundspsychology and counseling, my
educational background, sothat's probably where that's
coming from but but this ideaaround, you know, relationships,
you generally people eitherthink the best of the other
(19:29):
person or they think the worstof the other person, and that
will determine how they relateto each other. And so it's a lot
more along the lines of approachthe world with thinking the best
before you just assume thattrying to screw you over. Wait
until there's some evidence ofthat before Yes, that's your
mindset. So that's that's what Iwas thinking of like, you know,
(19:49):
it's empathy for yourself forsure. But also practicing that
empathy until you have no moreuntil they give you a reason to
be like, Screw you.
I love that. cuz I'm trying toget better at assuming the best
out of people instead of theworst, because I'm really bad
at, like, assuming someone'sdoing something like out of
spite or like, manipulative, andmost of the time people aren't.
(20:14):
So I definitely feel that I needto get better at that.
It's intellect over emotion. Imean, I'm saying, like,
emotionally, I'm pretty muchdown on, on everything. But I'll
actually try to convince myselfthat people were doing the best
I can. But as much as I know, Ijust said all that stuff at the
(20:34):
same time. It's like, but I'm,you know, I'm still human. I'm
an emotional guy. And I stilljust some sort of like, I don't
know, I walk around with just acomplete, complete
disappointment in society atmost.
Yeah, I know, I know. Well, andthat's what this podcast is all
about, like, just talking about,like our failures. And, you
know, everybody's bad at atleast one thing, if not several
(20:56):
things. So that that's kind of agood point for us to wrap up on.
I know, we can talk foreverabout this kind of stuff. But
what's something that you wantto try to work on? Or do you
have like a mantra or like,Mantra is kind of cheesy, but
you know what I mean, likesomething like that's gonna stay
(21:18):
in your head, as you'rebuilding. And working with the
developer that you want toshare.
I think it's just stayingstaying focused and, and
onpoint. Just each time I getnew ideas, don't act on them,
write them down, for sure. Putthem somewhere. If you got to
(21:38):
get out of your brain, get itout of your brain and make sure
you can go back and referenceit. But actually, as my dad
always says, keep the main thingthe main thing. And so I love
that. Yeah, so keep the mainthing. The main thing is what
I'm going to try to do, which Ihave not been good at at the
past in the past.
Okay, I will ask you in a fewmonths if your main thing still
(22:01):
your main thing. John, so ifanybody wants to learn more
about what you do or connectwith you online, where can they
do that?
Probably the best place isTwitter, which is Henshaw the h
e n SHA W. H I can't say myname. H e n, sh. Aw, so
(22:23):
twitter.com/intro And then theycould just go to koi wolf.com
coi wo lf.com Which by the wayis not a koi Wolf. It's actually
a coyote wolf hybrid, andthere's a whole story behind it.
Oh, nothing about it. being coy.
Okay, okay. Good to know. Ididn't know that piece of
trivia.
(22:43):
Yeah. So hit me up on Twitterand I'll give you more trivia.
Yeah, there you go.
Well, thank you John, so much,and thank you to everyone else
listening and until next timethank you for listening to the
story shout podcast. Don'tforget to review us on iTunes
and connect with us on socialmedia at story shout, or online
(23:04):
at story shout.co Until nexttime, stay normal.
You're listening to the story shout podcast hosted by
Kelsey Jones. We're a weeklypodcast dedicated to
destigmatizing failure andlaughing at our normalcy. Don't
forget to subscribe and leave areview on iTunes.
Hi, everyone, Welcome to Storyshout. My name is Kelsey Jones
(00:24):
and I'm joined here today byJohn Henshaw. John is a friend
of mine from the marketingworld. I think we met speaking
at state of search in Austin, ifI remember right, so that could
be it. Remember, it's,everything's a blur? And then
after two years of nothingness,I have no idea. Yeah, yeah.
Where I've Beensomewhere in a past life we met.
(00:45):
So John, thank you for comingon. Yeah. Have you been here? So
John, what do you suck at?
Well, I guess I have to likepick one.
Right? Yes, just,exactly. I would say that, as it
relates to the kind of stuffthat we do. I, I suck at trying
(01:06):
to do too many things. Two athing. And, and the thing that
probably comes to mind, althoughit's somewhat of a distant
memory, I guess is the yearsthat Raven, with Raven Tools,
we, you know, we started offsimple and, and it was sort of
(01:29):
like, we're going to have a ranktracker, and we're going to read
some reports or whatever. And,and it's only gonna be for SEO.
And I think that it's reallyhard as an entrepreneur, and
wanting to grow a business, tonot want to do all the things.
And I could never overcome that.
(01:51):
I was never able to overcomethat. When I was doing that
software, and you know, wewanted to add social, we wanted
to add paid, we wanted to wewanted to do all the things when
there were already companiesdoing those things, and it was
outside of our wheelhouse.
Particularly mine, I mean, minebeing SEO. So it was it was
(02:12):
along the lines of, you know,what we're going to do all
things social, we're going towe're going to do all the social
posting all the stuff like that.
And of course, you got bufferand and tools out there that
have perfected this, and they'reconstantly improving and
perfecting on it. And I thinkthe the biggest issue was with
(02:33):
that was that we we couldn'tmake it awesome. When when
you're trying to make all thethings you aren't able to ever
get the focus and the attentionthat each one needs to make it
really good to make it look thebest to make it super
(02:53):
competitive, especially whenthere are companies already out
there that that is all they do.
And they do it really well. Andthat's something that I'm not
sure I'm over yet, like I'vegotten over that. I mean, and
and so I've been very slowly onthe side working on my version
of a minimalist, ContactRelationship Manager. And every
single time I look at it, I workon it, I think about a talk to
(03:17):
the developer working on it, itis an absolute complete struggle
for me to not be like, Okay, weneed to ask this, we need to add
this task manager, how are wegonna do calendars and you know,
whatever, whatever. And when allof my past experience says I
shouldn't be doing that. That'sa bad idea, John, you should
perfect the core features ofthis thing, which is managing a
(03:38):
contact, adding a contact,working with your contacts.
Before you go down that road.
I think it's hard in techespecially. And this could
probably apply to anywhere. Butyou see other apps or services
or software like doing thatwell, or what you think of well,
(03:59):
not even competitors to you. Butlike so I'm building an app as a
side project. And I just hiredthe developer this week. And we
had to narrow down whatcomponents to start with in the
app or whatever. And she wantedto add like a community feature
to it. And I'm like, that's noteven, we can't add that. Like
that's gonna be a whole otherthing. Like community building,
(04:22):
adding a community likecomponent to an app is a whole
other dimension that the appdoesn't even need. And so I had
to like put the brakes on it andjust say, you know, we can't do
that right now. Like right nowwe need minimum viable product
or whatever, like just buildsomething. But it's hard when
you're creative, and you're anentrepreneur and you have all
these ideas that could work. Andso you want to see if they will
(04:45):
work but that doesn't mean thatthey should work or that you
should do them.
It's funny because the developeryou're using, it describes the
blessing and curse type ofthing, which is you want to work
with a software developer, I'massuming you can't code with
anything like I can't. And soand so you want somebody who is
(05:08):
going to offer thosesuggestions, you know, be the
guide for how your technology isgoing to work and that type of
thing, you know, you're going tohave an idea of conceptually,
what is probably going to begood and reasonable. But for the
most part, you really need thisperson to make good decisions.
And, and, and like I said, havethose ideas. And so it's that
(05:30):
that's like a case of, I likethe way you're thinking, you
know, like, like, Thank you forwaiting to make this better. And
and I think we would probablyagree that a community feature
is not a horrible idea. Yeah,there are plenty of reasons why
wouldn't want to do it, and I'msure you probably would feel the
same. But but their mind is inthe right place, you know,
(05:53):
around that, like, oh, you know,this is, you know, you want that
creativity from that person. Andat the same time, you know,
it's, it's, I think, where youwere just going with it, which
is, but that's not what we'rebuilding right now. Like,
really, truly, I think he mayhave said it, really, truly,
truly need to have a, an MVPthat just does what it's
(06:16):
supposed to do and worked reallywell. And that can be the gravy
that comes later. That can bethe thing that helps grow the
audience for it or, you know,spread the word.
Yeah. And I think what's hard,what is hard when it's not your
main project, or job orwhatever? Is I keep thinking
about that, quote, I thinkFacebook used to say it like
(06:37):
yours when they started back. Idon't want to I don't you know,
I know they're controversialnow. But back in the day, when,
when they were smaller, they allI think Mark Zuckerberg always
said Done is better thanperfect. And I tried to think
about that, like, okay, in allareas of my life, not just my
side projects, but evenespecially my side projects,
(06:57):
like, what can I just get done,where it's not bad, like, I
don't want to make it crappy, orlike, rush in and make it not
work. But what makes it done,and we can move on to the next
step of the building processversus Where's what's our
version of perfect, where wecould add everything all at
once.
So this takes me back to sort ofwhat I was talking about
(07:17):
earlier, which is, I want tooffer some clarity, from my
perspective, like, what I thinkabout, like done and perfect and
that type of thing, which is thehabitual chronic issue that I
had, when I was at Raven for allthose years was, it was done,
but then left. Meaning meaning,and actually, some of it is
(07:41):
definitely my fault, justbecause if we're talking about
like, our, the thing I suck at,but the other thing had to do
with, I have partners and andthere's a whole company being
run, and we're trying to grow.
And so for a lot of otherpeople, when I finally got this
thing done, you know as in youbuilt in it, the first idea
that, you know, you built it,and it technically works, but
(08:03):
it's not complete, and it needsa lot more to go with it. And
this is not going to be goodenough, and everybody would move
on. And I found that to beextremely frustrating. versus
the other approach of not addingon things not moving on, which
would be I so I've been workingon my thing for like three
(08:26):
years. I'm on like my third orfourth developer because it just
everything like one guy had atornado take out everything he
had. And that was Yeah, yeah, Imean, just like horrible stuff
for some of these people. Andit's, it's awful. But it has
delayed and Lane Lane delay, andI've had to start over and that
type of thing. But but with withthis, it's done to me versus
(08:47):
perfect. Has to do with labels.
So the first initial done willbe what we might call an alpha,
you know, but it's not done. Butit's done enough that I'll I'll
feel comfortable enough to, tomaybe have like private invites,
had people come in and startplaying around with this type of
(09:08):
thing. And even when it's readyto take anybody, it won't be
perfect. And it won't be done.
But it will be done. And I knowthis is like probably making no
sense because I'm I'm thinkingabout my own words, right now
does that make a lot of sensebut the thing I think that I
want to bring attention to inregards to like what a sucked in
the past and what I reallyreally want to get over and
(09:30):
change in my life when Iapproach this stuff is that
instead of trying to add a bunchof new features, after gets like
publicly released and everybodycan have it and I know it's not
perfect and stuff trying to adda bunch of stuff. Spin the time
to continue to perfect the thingthat you have released. Just
don't add a bunch of stuff justperfect. What you have for 612
(09:52):
months, whatever it might be,just keep taking the feedback.
You're gonna have have a ton ofpeople, or I'll have a ton of
people or whatever that willcome and be like, Oh, we should
do this? Or can you add thatagainst, you know, it'd be
really cool if he did thisthing. And I can listen to that
I can write it down, but I needto stay away from it, I need to
not do it, what I need to do isreact to the feedback for the
(10:15):
features that exist here. Andnow, you know, when when they're
using it? And? And essentially,because because in order for
something, especially for us,for people who are just like,
individual, yeah, who's hiringsome, some developer, the only
way we're ever going to becompetitive with this, or, you
know, have the market prove itas something that's worthy of,
(10:38):
you know, people using and itcould be become something is
that attention to detail thatattention to even it will never
reach perfection, we willcontinually be like, How can I
tweak this? How can I make thatbetter? How can I make it a
little faster? How can I, howcan I make it so there's just
little to zero friction to dothese very common things that
(11:02):
people do with this app, withoutadding all the other crap.
I love that. Because I thinkit's so easy to get distracted
with things that you didn't do.
It's, it's easy to miss thethings that should be improved.
Because you're so I thinkthere's in our culture, it's
like, there, you should alwaysbe bigger and better than what
(11:24):
it was before. But things can bebetter and still be the same. If
that makes any sense at all,like, totally like features are
the same, but they can work somuch better. And that's, and
that's really what probablyusers want. Like if I if I want
an email service or something, Ijust want it to work, I don't
(11:45):
want to, oh, create a websitefrom your emails, or like, say,
or share your emails on social,here's all these share buttons,
like I don't even want that ifI'm signing up for an email
provider, I just want to sendemails to my email list. And I
think in tech, we forget aboutthat. So that's a really good
point, like focusing onimproving what you already have,
(12:08):
instead of chasing the next big,like release or feature.
It's really difficult to do it.
I mean, as as, you know, usbeing fellow creators, fellow
entrepreneurs, makers, you wantto make, you want to do
everything in me, says, Keepmaking it more awesome, and add
(12:30):
all these things. And there's alot of pressure to do that, I
mean, that you'll, you'll end upgetting feedback from people who
do use it, where they're justlike, it'd be perfect if I just
had this one feature. And it'sreally hard to ignore that. And
so that and I suck at ignoringthat I suck at ignoring, suck at
not doing a socket, not going toadd all the things and so that's
(12:52):
why this time around, I'm justgonna do my best to remain
disciplined to see if thisapproach works. Yeah,
unfortunately, my life doesn'tdepend on it, you know, it's, it
is a side project, I have a mainjob and I'm fine, you know, but
and so I'm a, I need to remindmyself of that, like, this
doesn't have to be some giantfinancial success, you know,
(13:15):
course I, we dream of thosethings we want it to be but but
I'm building it because I wantit to exist. Like, the thing I'm
building doesn't exist, I'vewanted to build it for forever.
So I'm gonna build it, it mightbe a giant money stuck. Because
I end up being the only personwho uses it. But at least it
exists and I'm happy and I madesomething and, you know,
(13:35):
whatever. So I don't know thatit's just, I hope I could do it.
I hope I hope that 612 monthsor, you know, whatever down the
road after this thing gets doneand is out there that I just I
haven't done the completeopposite of what I just talked
about. Yeah, it continued tosuck.
Right? The app I work I'mworking on it's the same thing.
(13:58):
It's like I want it so I'mthat's why I'm building it and,
but those are the best projectsbecause I think it just it is
the the journey itself isrewarding not to be like cheesy
or cliche, but like to see itget built and finished, I think
will be satisfying.
It is it is for us. I mean, I'msaying like you have to be the
(14:20):
right person. I mean, it'sextremely satisfying. It feels
really good. And then of courseI would say at least for me, it
has less to do about the moneyand if it ever makes any it has
more to do with the excitement Iget from somebody using
something that I also lovethat's i that craft is that I
(14:42):
made that that came from me Imean that's sort of like the
makers dream you know? And and Ithink it's it's amazing if
something like that could go onto be a source of revenue and
you know, be your business oryour lifestyle business or
whatever but But just knowingthat you've poured yourself into
(15:04):
something and something that youreally feel strongly about you
want to exist. And that getsvalidated by the market. You
know, that's, that's, that'skind of exciting. So I don't
know. I mean, that's, there's alittle bit of that that drives
me in it kind of reminds me alittle bit of something I know
you do. I think you do a lot,you know, which is like writing
and stuff, same type of thing.
Like it's, yeah, there's a lotof gratification. Just, I don't
(15:26):
know, emotionally,intellectually, I have no idea,
you know, that. We're just like,awesome. Like, I wrote something
that was important to me that Ithought might be important to
the people and people, and itresonated with a lot of people.
And that there's a really goodfeeling about that. So
yeah, I agree. And that's what Iwas going to ask you, as you
(15:47):
were talking that I thoughtabout is, I think, this process
and probably why it's hard tojust work on what you already
have is because it feels sopersonal. And it feels so at
least for me, I feel vulnerablemaking it because it whether I'm
writing something or you know,building this idea for this app
(16:08):
that I've had for years, I feelvery vulnerable, making that
because I've had the idea andbeen excited about it for so
long. That to finally do it islike very scary for me. And so I
think that, like dealing withthat in my brain, as well as the
logistics of it has have justbeen a really long road because
it's like, you finally get tothe point where you can make it
and I've had some, you know,stop and go moments where I just
(16:32):
am like, not ready, because I'mjust so scared that like, what
if it doesn't work out. And soI've also been working through
the men, you know, the mental, Idon't know, emotional side of
it, as well. And I think whenyou're super creative, you you
struggle with that, too.
So I have this life philosophythat I've adhered to for as long
(16:54):
as I can remember, and it'scalled the philosophy of lowered
expectations. And, and it worksfor me, I mean, I don't I don't
think it's a depressing way tolive your life, I think it's, it
has to do with, I don't expectmuch from other people, I don't
expect them and just don't Imean, like, like, if I if I'm
(17:15):
going to the DMV, if I'm goingflying, i My expectations are so
low, that I expect for delays, Iexpect for something stupid to
happen, I expect for it to notgo smoothly. That's my
expectation. So I enter it at amuch slower pace than everybody
else. And when things gosmoothly, or holy crap, like
(17:38):
things go really well like aboveand beyond, you know, something
goes smoothly. It, it makes lifea lot more enjoyable. Like I
have found that, for me. Mysecret to unlocking more
happiness in life as opposed todepression or something is, is
to lower my expectations, youknow, like, and the thing is, is
(18:00):
I think it's consistent withreality, which is it? Yeah,
we're all just people, right?
Doing our best, we're all alittle crazy, we're a little
crazy, very true. And, and, andwe don't know what each other is
going through in life. And so Iwould say that a better way to
say that philosophy of lowerexpectations than it is more of
(18:22):
a practice of empathy. Meaningwhen you leave the door, and you
go out into the world, justimmediately start practice
practicing empathy and assumethat, you know, somebody is, you
know, they're probably being anidiot, because things are hard
for them. Right, they're havinga bad day, or eventually it
wears off and you get angry,angry at the world, tweet,
(18:45):
whatever airlines and dowhatever but, but I find that if
you approach it that way, youget a little bit of cushion
before you reach that place.
I love that I so I needed tohave more empathy for myself and
also not have as highexpectation like, not everything
(19:08):
has to be so scary.
Yeah, well empathy for yourselfand, and everybody else like in
other words, trying to approachit kind of kind of like how, by
the way my backgroundspsychology and counseling, my
educational background, sothat's probably where that's
coming from but but this ideaaround, you know, relationships,
you generally people eitherthink the best of the other
(19:29):
person or they think the worstof the other person, and that
will determine how they relateto each other. And so it's a lot
more along the lines of approachthe world with thinking the best
before you just assume thattrying to screw you over. Wait
until there's some evidence ofthat before Yes, that's your
mindset. So that's that's what Iwas thinking of like, you know,
(19:49):
it's empathy for yourself forsure. But also practicing that
empathy until you have no moreuntil they give you a reason to
be like, Screw you.
I love that. cuz I'm trying toget better at assuming the best
out of people instead of theworst, because I'm really bad
at, like, assuming someone'sdoing something like out of
spite or like, manipulative, andmost of the time people aren't.
(20:14):
So I definitely feel that I needto get better at that.
It's intellect over emotion. Imean, I'm saying, like,
emotionally, I'm pretty muchdown on, on everything. But I'll
actually try to convince myselfthat people were doing the best
I can. But as much as I know, Ijust said all that stuff at the
(20:34):
same time. It's like, but I'm,you know, I'm still human. I'm
an emotional guy. And I stilljust some sort of like, I don't
know, I walk around with just acomplete, complete
disappointment in society atmost.
Yeah, I know, I know. Well, andthat's what this podcast is all
about, like, just talking about,like our failures. And, you
know, everybody's bad at atleast one thing, if not several
(20:56):
things. So that that's kind of agood point for us to wrap up on.
I know, we can talk foreverabout this kind of stuff. But
what's something that you wantto try to work on? Or do you
have like a mantra or like,Mantra is kind of cheesy, but
you know what I mean, likesomething like that's gonna stay
(21:18):
in your head, as you'rebuilding. And working with the
developer that you want toshare.
I think it's just stayingstaying focused and, and
onpoint. Just each time I getnew ideas, don't act on them,
write them down, for sure. Putthem somewhere. If you got to
(21:38):
get out of your brain, get itout of your brain and make sure
you can go back and referenceit. But actually, as my dad
always says, keep the main thingthe main thing. And so I love
that. Yeah, so keep the mainthing. The main thing is what
I'm going to try to do, which Ihave not been good at at the
past in the past.
Okay, I will ask you in a fewmonths if your main thing still
(22:01):
your main thing. John, so ifanybody wants to learn more
about what you do or connectwith you online, where can they
do that?
Probably the best place isTwitter, which is Henshaw the h
e n SHA W. H I can't say myname. H e n, sh. Aw, so
(22:23):
twitter.com/intro And then theycould just go to koi wolf.com
coi wo lf.com Which by the wayis not a koi Wolf. It's actually
a coyote wolf hybrid, andthere's a whole story behind it.
Oh, nothing about it. being coy.
Okay, okay. Good to know. Ididn't know that piece of
trivia.
(22:43):
Yeah. So hit me up on Twitterand I'll give you more trivia.
Yeah, there you go.
Well, thank you John, so much,and thank you to everyone else
listening and until next timethank you for listening to the
story shout podcast. Don'tforget to review us on iTunes
and connect with us on socialmedia at story shout, or online
(23:04):
at story shout.co Until nexttime, stay normal.
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