#105 What if time doesn’t heal betrayal—and awareness does?

Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Welcome to the Straight from the Source's Mouth
Podcast.
Frank talk about sex and dating.
Hello, it's Amber here.
Welcome to the show.
Today's guest is Dr.
Debbie Silber.
She's a best-selling author andspeaker, and we'll be talking
about betrayal.
Thanks for joining me, Debbie.

SPEAKER_01 (00:15):
Uh, thanks so much.
Looking forward to ourconversation.

SPEAKER_00 (00:18):
I the one thing that caught my eye with your
information was people thinkit's stress, but really it's
potentially something thathappened, like a betrayal that
may have happened.
Um, but yeah, we can talk aboutwhere start wherever you want to
start.
Okay.

SPEAKER_01 (00:34):
Okay.
Yeah, I'm in business 34 years,health, mindset, personal
development.
And then I had a uh painfulbetrayal from my family.
And I thought I did all I neededto do to heal from that.
And then it happened a few yearslater.
This time it was my husband.
So that was the deal breaker.
Got him out of the house andlooked at the two experiences,
thinking, like, what's what'sgoing on here?

(00:54):
And you know, I'm one of thosepeople that believes if nothing
changes, nothing changes.
So usually I go to books orcourses and there wasn't
anything available to help meheal.
So this was for me the biggestthing that I had ever
experienced uh as far as thistype of pain.
So I decided to study it at thePhD level.
So here he was, four kids, sixdogs, a thriving business, and I

(01:16):
enrolled in a PhD program justto help me heal and to help my
clients.
And um, that study led to threegroundbreaking discoveries,
which changed my health, myfamily, my work, my life.

SPEAKER_00 (01:28):
What you said you discovered three breakthrough
things.
What do you want to start bytalking about those?
Or sure.

SPEAKER_01 (01:34):
Okay.
So the first was I had a feelingthat betrayal was a different
type of trauma.
I'd been through Death of aLoved one, I'd been through
disease, but betrayal feltdifferent for me.
I didn't want to assume it wasthe same for all my study
participants, so I asked them,if you've been through other
traumas besides betrayal, doesit feel different for you?
And unanimously, they said it'sso different.

And here's why (01:53):
because it feels so intentional, we take it so
personally.
So the self gets shattered andhas to be rebuilt.
Rejection, abandonment,belonging, confidence,
worthiness, trust.
Like when you lose someone youlove, you grieve, you're sad,
you know, you mourn the loss,but you don't question the
relationship.
You don't question your abilityto trust.

(02:14):
With betrayal, you do.
So that betrayal is a differenttype of trauma that needs a
different way to heal.
That was the first discovery.

SPEAKER_00 (02:22):
Okay.
Yeah.
And I assume you're ready to saythe second, or do you want to
say more about the first?
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (02:27):
Sure.
So the second was that there'sactually this collection of
symptoms, physical, mental, andemotional, so common to
betrayal.
It's now known as post-betrayalsyndrome.
We've had over 100,000 peopletake our post-betrayal syndrome
quiz on our site to see to whatextent they're struggling.
You know, the first thing iswe've all been told and taught
time heals all wounds.

(02:48):
I have the proof that when itcomes to betrayal, that's not
true.
There's a question on the quizthat says, is there anything
else you'd like to share?
And people write things like, Mybetrayal happened 35 years ago.
I'm unwilling to trust.
You know, so we know we can'tcount on time.
We can't even count on a newrelationship to heal it.
Unless and until we deliberatelyand intentionally heal it, it

(03:11):
will follow us around in ourwork, in our health, in our
relationships.

SPEAKER_00 (03:16):
Wow.
Yeah, that doesn't sound good.
So I'm hoping the third one ishow you actually heal it.

SPEAKER_01 (03:22):
Yeah, sure.
So the third, and I'm happy toshare the stats from the
post-betrayal syndrome quiz ifyou want, but I'll go into the
third.
The third discovery was this wasthe most exciting.
And what we learned was while wecan stay stuck for years,
decades, a lifetime, and manypeople do, if we're going to
fully heal, and by fully heal, Imean symptoms of post-betrayal

(03:43):
syndrome, which I'm happy toshare after, to this completely
rebuilt place calledpost-betrayal transformation,
where you rebuild your life andyourself.
We will move through five provenpredictable stages.
And what's even more excitingabout that is we know what
happens physically, mentally,and emotionally at every stage.
And we know what we need to doin order to move from one stage

(04:04):
to the next.
Healing's entirely predictable.

SPEAKER_00 (04:07):
Wow, that's awesome.
Yeah, and I think, like yousaid, maybe go back to stay the
second step with the quiz tofigure out like how bad it is,
basically, I would think.
Sure.

SPEAKER_01 (04:17):
Okay, and then happy to go through the stages if you
want to hear them.
So um imagine a hundred thousandpeople, men and women, uh, just
about every country isrepresented.
And while you're gonna hear thesymptoms, listen for the
numbers.
78% constantly revisit theirexperience.
81% feel a loss of personalpower.

(04:37):
When you lose your personalpower, think of the decisions
you make, right?
94% deal with painful triggers,the most common physical
symptoms.
71% have low energy, 68% havesleep issues, 63% have extreme
fatigue.
So you go to sleep, you wake up,you're exhausted.
47% have weight changes.

(04:58):
So in the beginning, maybe youcan't hold food down.
Later on, you're emotionallyeating.
Very, very common.
45% have a digestive issue.
And that could be anything.
Crohn's, IBS, tiberticulitis,whatever.
The most common mental symptoms.
78% are overwhelmed, uh, 64% arein shock, 62% can't concentrate.

(05:19):
So imagine you can'tconcentrate, you're exhausted,
you have a gut issue, you know,you still have to raise your
kids, you still have to go towork, yes, you still have to
take care of, you know, elderlyparents.
That's not even emotional.
Emotionally, 88% experienceextreme sadness.
82%, I'm sorry, 83% are veryangry, and you're gonna be

(05:40):
bouncing back and forth betweenthose two all day long.
Uh, 79% are stressed.
I'll just read a few more.
This is why I wrote my book,Trust Again.
This one killed me.
84% have an inability to trust.
Think about what that's gonna doas far as future relationships.
67% prevent themselves fromforming deep relationships
because they're afraid of beinghurt again.

(06:00):
The big wall goes up, they keepeveryone at a distance.
82% find it hard to moveforward, 90% want to move
forward, but they don't knowhow.
Now, what's crazy about thosestats is first of all, you
didn't hear me say 20%, 30%.
The numbers are super high.
They're also not representativeof a recent betrayal.

(06:22):
This could be from the parentwho did something awful when you
were a kid.
This could be from, you know,the partner who broke your heart
in high school.
So this person may not know,care, remember.
I mean, they didn't may not evenbe alive.
And here we are, years, decadeslater, with these symptoms,
because it was left unhealed.
The good news is you can healfrom all of it, which I

(06:44):
mentioned.
That was a third discovery.

SPEAKER_00 (06:46):
Yeah, I'm definitely ready to hear about that.
It sounds that as soon as youmentioned something, I was like,
oh, I think I might have one ofthese.
So let me let me hear this.

SPEAKER_01 (06:54):
Yeah, yeah.
Okay.
So you want me to go through thefive stages?
Yeah.
Okay.
So this is all we do within thePBT Institute.
It's what I certify all of ourcoaches and practitioners in.
I'm gonna give you a superboiled-down version.
Stage one is before it happens.
And if you can imagine four legsof a table, the four legs being
physical, mental, emotional, andspiritual.
What I saw with everybody, metoo, was a heavy lean on the

(07:17):
physical and the mental thinkingand doing, and kind of
neglecting or ignoring theemotional and the spiritual
feeling and being.
Well, if a table only has twolegs, it's going to be easy for
that table to topple over.
That's us.
Stage two, shock, trauma, D-Day,discovery day.
This is the scariest of all ofthe stages.
And this is where the personjust kind of takes a mask off

(07:39):
and reveals who they've been.
And it's the breakdown of thebody, the mind, and the
worldview.
So, right here, you've ignitedthe stress response.
You're headed for every singlestress-related symptom, illness,
condition, disease.
Your mind is in a complete stateof chaos and overwhelm.
You cannot wrap your mind andunderstand what just happened.

(08:01):
Makes no sense.
And your worldview has just beenshattered.
That's your mental model, therules that govern you that
prevent chaos.
Trust this person, don't gothere.
These are the rules.
And in one earth shatteringmoment or series of moments,
every rule you've been followingis no longer true.
The bottom has bottomed out anda new bottom hasn't been formed

(08:21):
yet.
So it's terrifying, right?
But think about it.
If the bottom were to bottom outon you, what would you do?
You'd grab hold of anything oranyone in order to stay safe and
stay alive.
That's stage three.
Survival instincts emerge.
This is the most practical outof all of the stages.
If you can't help me, get out ofmy way.
How do I survive this?
Where do I go?

(08:42):
Who can I trust?
Here's the trap, though.
Stage three by far is the mostcommon place we get stuck.
And here's why.
Once we've figured out how tosurvive our experience, because
it feels so much better than theshock and trauma we just came
from, we think it's good.
And because we don't knowthere's anywhere else to go, we

(09:03):
don't know there's a stage fouror a stage five.
Transformation doesn't evenbegin until stage four.
But because we don't knowthere's anywhere else to go, we
plant roots here.
We're not supposed to, but wedon't know that.
And four things start to happen.
The first thing is we startgetting all of these small
self-benefits.
We get our story, we get to beright, we get sympathy, you

(09:25):
know, from everyone we share ourstory with.
And on some level, we're sounhappy, we think this is good.
So we take it.
And now because we're herelonger than we should be, now
the mind starts doing thingslike, you know, maybe you're not
that great.
Maybe you deserved it.
Maybe this, maybe that.
So we plant deeper roots.
And now, because these are thethoughts we're thinking, this is
the energy we put out.

(09:46):
Like energy attracts likeenergy.
So now we start attracting newpeople and circumstances and
relationships to confirm, yep,this is where we belong.
Here's where we'll join somelame support group and
everybody's complaining andcommiserating, and we will
sabotage our healing and ourgrowth because we found our
people.
Here's where we go to therapy.

(10:07):
And if that therapist is nothighly skilled in betrayal,
well-meaning, you're gonna feelheard, validated, understood.
You're not an inch closer tostage four.
And you're doing that over andover and over again, actually
solidifying your spot in stagethree.
Here's where you may be healing,but your betrayer has no
intention of changing.

(10:27):
So you keep sabotaging yourselfbecause you're afraid to outgrow
your betrayer.
It gets worse, but I'll getchatter.
Because it feels so bad, but wedon't know there's anywhere else
to go, we have to get throughour day.
So right here, we start numbing,avoiding, distracting.
We start using food, drugs,alcohol, whatever, you know, to
numb avoid distress.

(10:47):
So we do it for a day, a week, amonth.
Now it's a habit, a year, 10years, 20 years.
And I can see someone 20 yearslater and say, you know, that
emotional eating you're doing,that drinking you're doing, do
you think that has anything todo with your betrayal?
They'd look at me like I'mcrazy.
They'd say it happened 20 yearsago.
All they did was put themselvesin stage three and stay there.

(11:08):
Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_00 (11:09):
Oh yeah.
Yeah, I can see that.

SPEAKER_01 (11:11):
Yeah, yeah.
Uh anyway, if you're willing, uhwillingness is a big word right
here, to grieve more than theloss, bunch of things you need
to do, you move to stage four.
Stage four is finding andadjusting to a new normal.
So here's where you acknowledgeI can't undo what happened, but
I control what I do with it.
Right there in that decision,you're starting to turn down the

(11:32):
stress response.
You're not healing just yet, butat least you stop the massive
damage that was going on instages two and stage three.
Stage four feels like if you'veever moved, if you've ever moved
to a new house office, whatever.
Your stuff's not there, youknow, it's not quite cozy yet,
but it's this sort of hopefulexcitement.
Feels like that.
But think about it.

(11:53):
If you were planning on moving,you wouldn't take everything
with you.
You know, you don't take thethings that don't represent who
you're now ready to become.
And what I found was there'sthis one spot as people go from
stage three to stage four.
If your friends weren't therefor you, they're not coming
along.
That lame support group, you'redone.
That therapist who doesn'tunderstand betrayal, you're

(12:13):
done.
That betrayer who's notchanging, you're done.
And people ask me all the time,you know, Dr.
Debbie, what the heck is it me?
Yes, it is.
You're undergoing atransformation.
And if they don't rise, theydon't come along.
Anyway, when we've settled intothis space, we've made it
mentally cozy, we've made ithome, we move into the fifth
most beautiful stage.
And this is healing, rebirth,and a new worldview.

(12:34):
The body starts to heal.
Self-love, self-care, eatingwell, exercise.
We we couldn't do that earlier.
We weren't ready.
Um, the mind is healing.
We're making all kinds of newrules, new boundaries based on
the road we just traveled.
And we have a new worldviewbased on everything we see so
clearly now.
And the four legs of that tablein the beginning, it was all
about the physical and themental.

(12:55):
By this point, we're solidlygrounded because we're focused
on the emotional and thespiritual too.
Those are the five stages.

SPEAKER_00 (13:03):
Okay.
Yeah, that's sounds awesome.
Uh is it common to get all theway through five, or I guess
with people you work with,that's how that's that's what we
do.

SPEAKER_01 (13:11):
I mean, that's our our coaches are certified in
moving people through the fivestages.

unknown (13:16):
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (13:17):
And do you want to share about what your program is
and how to reach you and thatkind of information?

SPEAKER_01 (13:22):
Sure.
So everything is at the PBT asin post-betrayal transformation,
the pbtinstitute.com.
So our we have programs for thebetrayer uh in a different
community, ones who are ready tobecome someone they're proud of.
We have uh our reclaim programfor the betrayed, where they
meet privately with our coaches,they go to daily live classes,

(13:45):
they have our signature program,all of that, and we have our
certification program where Icertify coaches and
practitioners to uh predictablymove someone through the five
stages.
Because whether you're atherapist, a coach, a healer of
some kind, it's very likely alot of your clients are coming
your way, and at the root of itis an unhealed betrayal.

(14:05):
Like, think about it.
Let's say you're the best gutexpert.
45% of everyone betrayed has adigestive issue.
You can be the best gut expertand suggest this great protocol.
But if you know the five stagesand you know that betrayal is
likely at the root of it, thinkabout how much bigger and
greater of a transformation yourclients and patients can have.
So, yeah, all of it is it is isat the pbtinstitute.com.

SPEAKER_00 (14:29):
Okay.
Well, thank you for theinformation.
And yeah, it's funny you saidgut class, because I'm actually
in a gut class, and it's I'msure like she would be would
like to know this informationtoo.
That because she she does knowit's a full you know, whole
person, like functionalmedicine, looking at the whole
person stuff, but and I've heardthis information before-ish, but
not to this extent.

(14:50):
So it's good that there is hopefor people.

SPEAKER_01 (14:53):
Oh, that hope, it's predictable.
If someone's willing to do it,we gotcha.

SPEAKER_00 (14:57):
Yeah.
Okay.
Do you have anything more to sayor anything else you wanted to
add about it?
I mean, it's pretty cut, prettycut and dry, but obviously
you're not going through thesteps.
Yeah, yeah, sure.
How long does it usually takesomeone to or situation
dependent or yeah, I would sayit has more to do with
willingness than time.

SPEAKER_01 (15:19):
That's really the truth.
You could if you're willing, youwill move through the stage
stages way quicker than someonewho just has their story and
they're sticking with it.
Or is numbing avoidingdistracting, or you know, they
just don't have any consequencelike the if the betrayer has no
consequences, you know.
It's and and they they're justacting as if everything is fine.

(15:42):
You know, these you're not gonnaheal if that's the case.
If you're willing to movethrough it, um, that's 90% of
the battle.

SPEAKER_00 (15:49):
Yeah.
And if someone is if someone youknow is in stage three or seems
to be stuck in that stage, isthere something you can offer
them?

SPEAKER_01 (15:56):
I mean, obviously tell them about your program,
but is there like some words ofwisdom to share to Yeah, you
know I it's it's very common tostay stuck there because you
don't know there's anywhere elseto go.
So when you know the stages, ifyou knew what stage four and
five felt like for a minute,you'd never stay in stage three.

(16:16):
It's just a stuck the the afamiliar place.
The only benefit is that it'swhat you know.
But there were so many things inyour life that you didn't know
and then you did it, and now youknow.
So this is one of those things.
Don't take familiarity as good.
It's only familiar.

SPEAKER_00 (16:35):
Yeah, yeah, I can see that.
Is there anything else you wantto share about any of those
areas or have the short andsweet?
Which one?

SPEAKER_01 (16:45):
Yeah, you know, I would say really one of the most
common things is that whenyou're betrayed, you take it
personally.
And and you know, if you have tosay this a million times, it's
worth it.
Even though it happened to you,it's not about you.
You know, I work with thebetrayers as well.
They have their own communitywithin uh the PBT Institute, and
they confirm it all day long.

(17:06):
It had nothing to do with theirpartner, it had everything to do
with their lack, their unhealedtrauma, their sense of
entitlement, their whatever.
Never that it's an excuse, butit's not about it's not about
the person they betrayed.

SPEAKER_00 (17:22):
Yeah, yeah, I'm sure that's helpful to hear.
Or once you start believing it,I'm sure that's in one of the
later phases of where youactually do.
Yeah.
All right.
Well, like so we can leave ithere if you're good with the
information, or if there'sanything else you wanted to
like.
I know you just kind of did alast moment thing, so, or a
final thoughts.
You have yet another finalthought, or we'll call it good.

SPEAKER_01 (17:44):
Uh, you know, I would say just there's staying
stuck is a choice.
Healing is predictable.
So as long as you know there arefive stages, you have access to
them.
There's nothing, there's nothingstopping you from moving through
the stages except for a lack ofawareness, and now you know.

SPEAKER_00 (18:01):
Awesome.
Yes, I mean, thank you so muchfor this information.
I think short and sweet willhelp because, like you said,
they can reach out to you andthey can recognize that they
might be stuck in stage three,since you said so many probably
are.
Yeah.
So there is a better life andthere's hope.
So, all right.
Well, thank you again.
And if you love this episode andfound it helpful, be sure to
tell your friends about it andrate it as well.

(18:22):
And thank you so much forlistening and thank you for
being on Dr.
Debbie.
Thank you.
All right, thanks everyone.

SPEAKER_01 (18:30):
Frank saw! Frank Sawk! Sex and dating and two
kids.

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}#105 What if time doesn’t heal betrayal—and awareness does?

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#105 What if time doesn’t heal betrayal—and awareness does?

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