January 21, 2025 • 28 mins
Unlock the mystical layers of Kundalini energy and Tantra with our fascinating guest, Tom Bushku, CEO and founder of Primal Divinity Coaching. This episode promises to redefine your understanding of these ancient spiritual philosophies, often shrouded in misconceptions. Tom recounts his captivating journey from a Reiki master to a pioneer in Kundalini activation, revealing how this powerful life force can transcend the physical realm to offer unparalleled ecstasy and consciousness elevation. Together, we unpack the profound nature of Kundalini, not just as a sexual element but as an integral part of our spiritual journey, deeply rooted in ancient Indian traditions.
Embark on a path of emotional healing and empowerment as we discuss the significance of self-awareness in recognizing and overcoming personal traumas. With Tom's insights, learn how fully experiencing emotions, even discomfort, can lead to profound healing and deeper connections. We also explore the transformative power of balancing spiritual and sexual energies, enhancing not just personal growth but enriching intimate relationships. As we conclude, we invite you to reflect on these insights and consider sharing this episode with others who may benefit from this enlightening conversation. Join us for more thought-provoking discussions.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Straight from the Source's Mouth
.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
Podcast Frank talk about sex and dating.
Hello, tamara here, welcome tothe show.
Today's guest is back again,tom Bushku, ceo and founder of
Primal Divinity Coaching, andthis time we'll be talking about
Kundalini energy and Tantra.
Thanks for joining me again,tom.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
It's great to be back , Tamara.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
But yeah.
So how did you get started withit, or how did you come to know
about it?
Speaker 1 (00:27):
I had heard of the word kundalini just in terms of
kundalini yoga.
I remember I first read aboutit in some fiction book I don't
remember what it was as thisweird mystical thing where
people can control their heartrate and all these crazy things,
and so I knew that this thingexisted, but I didn't know what
(00:47):
it was.
And I'm talking this is yearsago, 10 or 15 years ago but I've
been doing energy work forprobably 25 years.
I'm a Reiki master and I gotattuned to Reiki just so that I
could give the energy healing tomyself without having to go
find somebody else to do it forme, because I experienced it
(01:09):
once.
It made me feel better and Iwanted more of it, and so I've
been in the world of energyhealing for a long time, but I
never really did much with it.
I didn't do it for other peopleother than my mom as she was
getting older, or I would dosome Reiki treatments on my kids
when they were toddlers, tryingto get them to go to sleep,
which works, because it's justlove.
(01:31):
Healing energy that's what allforms of energy healing really
are.
That was really kind of ituntil I started to explore some
other practices through somemen's coaching that I did and we
were doing some, someconsciousness exercises is what
we call them, and that issomatic work.
It's that's about finding theemotions that are stored in our
(01:53):
body and which is absolutelyscientific and legitimate, and
that we go off on a wholetangent on that.
But that's what really kind ofgot me opened up to the idea of
energy.
And as I was doing that work,that somatic work, those
consciousness exercises, I beganto get in touch more with my
own energy and the energy that'sall around us.
(02:15):
Some people will call it thequantum field or the universal
subconscious.
You know it's the same thingthat people use when they're
using psychic abilities orchanneling like mediums.
It's.
You know, in Star Wars theycalled it the force.
It's really all the same thing.
And so I began to get familiarwith this through just wanting
(02:36):
to get better, wanting to healmyself.
And I mentioned Kundalini at onepoint to one of the brothers in
my community and, lo and behold, not a week later it pops up.
I click on a real estate eventon Eventbrite and then at the
bottom you know how it suggestsvarious things you might be
interested, and one of thesuggestions was a Kundalini
(02:59):
activation.
I'm like, hey, I was justtalking about that, let me see
what that's all about.
And it was close by, it waslike 45 minutes away.
It was perfect because it wason what would have been my
anniversary, having just gottendivorced that year, married for
(03:20):
the first time to treat myselfto something like this.
So I went to my first Kundaliniactivation, not really knowing
what to expect, just thinkingthis would be a nice addition to
some of the things that I do,and I was absolutely blown away.
I think I've shared this withyou directly, but it was an
(03:43):
experience beyond anything I'veever had in the 3D world,
meaning that I experienced suchpleasure and bliss and ecstasy
that I honestly don't even careif I have sex again, because it
was 10 times better and thatdoesn't even do it justice.
(04:04):
Because it was 10 times betterand that doesn't even do it
justice.
You know to describe theexperience a little bit more
Well, actually, let me.
Let me back up a little bit,because your question is you
know, around kundalini energy,what?
What is it right?
Because that kind of needs tobe understood first.
Kundalini energy is our lifeforce, it's our chi, our prana,
(04:24):
it's our spirit, it's our soul,it's that which animates us
right, it's what gives our bodylife, it's our consciousness,
it's all those different things.
And this idea of kundalinienergy actually comes from
tantra philosophy, which is bornfrom ancient India a thousand
years ago.
And people automatically hearthe word tantra and they just
(04:46):
think kinky sex.
And it's yes, and it's so muchmore.
Tantra got commercialized andwesternized back in the late 60s
, early 70s, because sex sellsand they took that 1% of 1% of
what tantra is, which is reallyeverything.
It's really a spiritualphilosophy.
But within that tantraphilosophy is this idea of
(05:09):
kundalini energy, this lifeforce, energy that we all have
inside of us.
And in that philosophy thekundalini energy is dormant at
the base of our spine andthere's all these little details
, that kind of don't matterThings like you know.
It's coiled like a serpentthree and a half times and it
rises through these channelscalled nadis which crisscross at
(05:32):
the chakras, and you can getinto some serious woo-woo energy
stuff if you want to.
But the bottom line is thatthis is our life force, this is
our energy, this is ourconsciousness, but in most of us
it's resonating at a lowvibration and it lies dormant
and we're not tapping into it.
So what we're doing in akundalini activation, or the
(06:00):
purpose of practices likekundalini yoga, is we're waking
that up, we're raising thatkundalini energy like we are
uncoilingiling the serpent, andwe're rising it from the root up
to the higher chakras so thatit literally raises the
frequency that we're vibratingat as human beings and as
spiritual beings and it changesour consciousness and it changes
how we experience the worldyeah, that's a lot.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
No, and and I I do think this stuff exists.
I totally believe what you'resaying.
So, yeah, I know there's someskeptics out there, but I still
think this is great informationto have.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
Yeah, and I mean, this is all real whether
somebody believes in it or not,right?
I mean, you could tell somebodythere's no such thing as gravity
, but if you step off a buildingyou're going to hit the
pavement.
I believe the same thing istrue in this world of energy.
You know, if you need to takeit from a scientific mindset and
say, well, it's just thequantum field, there's science
that proves it's real.
(06:54):
So explain it however you want.
It's real.
And there's no denying what myexperience was and and what
happened.
And I'll tell you.
What happened when I had thatKundalini activation is that
because I had been doing so muchwork previous to that, I did a
lot of shadow work.
I got with all my wounds and mytraumas and my all the things
(07:16):
that are are are shadow right.
All the, all the things that wewe think happened to us, we
think poor me, why was I abused?
Why was I abandoned?
And I felt all that stuff and Ilearned to see the gift in all
those things through the men'swork that I do and because I had
done all of that work prior todoing a kundalini activation,
(07:38):
when I went into the session Iwas already pretty open, like
I'd cleared a lot of theblockages and I was ready to
receive.
And so when the facilitatorcame around the room and was
working on everybody which I canexplain how that works later my
channels were clear and theenergy was able to rise.
(08:01):
And so when it rose, it rose bigand hard to throw a sexual
innuendo in there, right, and itwas like I said.
It was like a spiritual orgasmis how some people describe it
and I was literally on the flooron a yoga mat, back arched,
head thrown back, crying out.
(08:21):
And yet it was not a physicalsensation like a sexual orgasm
when you ejaculate.
It was so much beyond that, itwas whole body and outside of
the body, like I could tell youthat for me it felt like this
ecstatic experience was centeredabout a foot off of my heart
(08:42):
chakra, and that was where Iexperienced this bliss and this
pleasure, and it was new levelsof pleasure than I ever knew was
even possible, and I wasabsolutely blown away and I knew
after the first session that Iwas going to have to learn this
and bring this to more people.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
Yeah, I mean obviously it learn this and
bring this to more people.
Yeah, I mean, obviously itsounds like something people
want to do and you're like, hey,let me tell more people about
this.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
For sure.
And then I had my secondsession and it was even beyond
that, it exceeded the firstsession.
You know, the first session, Ithought I hit the limit of what
pleasure could be.
(09:27):
And then I had the firstsession.
You know the first session, Ithought I hit the limit of what
what pleasure could be.
And then I had the secondsession and it was like, oh my
God, it blew it away and therewas like a new ceiling of what I
could feel, so much so that itactually triggered some feelings
of, oh, am I actually worthy offeeling this?
Good, right, and that's theshadow work that I talked about.
Right, and I've.
Fortunately, I had lots ofexperience feeling that, so I
was able to dive into that andthen come out of it and go back
into the pleasure and the bliss,and it made me realize that,
(09:48):
well, wait a minute, maybe thisisn't really the ceiling of
what's possible to experience.
Maybe there's even more, and Ijust think this is the limit,
just like it did the first time.
And so it really opened my eyesto what we can experience as
human beings, whether we'retalking about sex or energy or
anything else in life.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
Yeah, I mean I need to mention the shadow work.
So I know I told you I had, Idid it with you and then I also
had done it previously and theonly thing that happened really
was my right arm kept hurting,like literally just kept shaking
it because it just felt off.
So I don't know what kind ofblockage that is exactly, but I
have not done as much shadowwork.
I'm aware of everything, but Idon't know if I've done the work
(10:29):
to rid it of whatever you dowith it.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
Well, I'll tell you you don't rid yourself of it,
you don't get free from it, youget free with it.
And that's one of the thingsthat my mentor had learned and
(11:02):
shared with me that allsuffering is really the
avoidance of suffering.
And when we can dive into thesuffering and experience the
beauty of it, it no longer ownsus.
And that's the work that needsto be done before we can open up
to the other experiences thatwe want.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
Yeah, I've heard it said that you choose it.
Is that kind of the same thing?
Would you say, accepting it,choosing it like, instead of
trying, like you said, trying toresist it?
Speaker 1 (11:29):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
That would be another way of describing it All right,
and do you want to talk abouthow you were able to get rid of
this shot or not get rid of, howyou're able to live with the
stuff, or is that?
Or is there more to say aboutkundalini itself, or well, I
just want to give people an eye,a way of how they could do it.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
But then also you know the potential to work with
you or someone like you I'dactually be curious to hear a
little bit more about yourexperience with you know,
whether it was with the previoustime or with me because I, I
think, can give some people anidea of what the other
experiences they might have areor could be yeah, for mine it
was during a retreat the firsttime, and it was all women and
(12:10):
we were in a circle, like ourheads were in the center and we
were kind of fanned out.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
There was a, you know , energy healer, I'm guessing.
Like you, I can't rememberexactly, I just know we were
doing like a ceremony around itand I think, and there was sound
and, like I said, she was justand there's parts are breathing
in it too, like do you dodifferent breathing techniques
or is that there?
I did so many different thingsI can't remember which one was
yeah, it depends.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
I like I'll actually bring in some breathing
techniques, but most kundalinifacilitators do not yes, because
I can't remember if it was withthat or not.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
But I'll, like I said , the main thing I remember is
just like uncontrollably, my arm.
I was just like pain, pain, andI would just shake it out
because it was like hurting andthat's I don't know.
That's really I don't remember.
And then other people aredefinitely like you were saying,
they're making sounds and stuffand they were getting more out
of it or different things out ofit, and I guess she was
(13:06):
explaining where you're feelingstuff is depends on different
things, but I can't rememberwhat she had said about it.
So, I don't know if there's anyspecific thing about arms
hurting or not.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
I'm sure it all has a meaning and I don't pretend to
know it all.
What was your experience lastweek working with me?
Speaker 2 (13:25):
Unfortunately, I turned down the sound, so I
think that was part of it.
It was too loud in thebeginning when you were talking,
only so then I turned it downand then when the music was on,
I did not turn it up, so itwasn't getting the full
immersive effect.
That I think would have beenmore helpful.
And, like I said, I haveblockages and all this stuff.
I know of my issues and traumasand stuff, but being aware of
(13:50):
them and doing something aboutthem are two different things
and I have walls up pretty hardlike defense mechanisms and
stuff.
So it might take a little more.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
Tamara, that's great awareness and just like they
tell alcoholics, the first stepis admitting that you have a
problem.
Recognizing that you have sometraumas and some blocks and some
walls is the first thing thatneeds to happen before you can
start to do anything about it.
So give yourself some creditfor that.
Yeah, I mean, I've definitelyworked with people and, through
this, stuff happen before youcan start to do anything about
it.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
So give yourself some credit for that.
Yeah, I mean, I've definitelyworked with people and through
the stuff, but my follow throughhas always been the issue.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
Yeah, Well, it's not.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
I have.
Yeah, I've been aware.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
Yeah, I'm sorry I cut you off, but it's not pleasant
to go into those things andthat's why we avoid it.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
Yeah, I mean, for me it's more a defense mechanism of
pushing people away and keepingpeople at arm's length and
coming off across as aloofgenerally and, yeah, just
protecting myself that way.
But there were a few yearswhere I was not doing that.
I let my walls down and thenthey slowly went back up.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
I appreciate you sharing that and I think that's
something a lot of people canrelate to.
And you know, ultimately, thatall comes down to fear.
You know, fear of losing love,fear of getting hurt.
You know, in some variety, andyou know you asked about the
shadow work that I've donethat's really the core of it is
I have felt all of those thingsand I've allowed myself to go
(15:20):
deeper and deeper and deeperinto those feelings of feeling
unlovable and unworthy and notgood enough and can't get it
right of people in my life willbring that back up right,
they'll trigger those feelingsand even to this day it's not
like you do this once and you'regood.
It's like brushing your teethyou know you brush your teeth
(15:40):
and you're great in the morning,but then by the time you're
going to bed you've eaten allday and you've got to clean
things out.
It's the same thing,energetically and emotionally.
Things happen and old thingscome up again and again and it's
another opportunity to fullyfeel it and experience it.
And that happened, actually,when I did my third Kundalini
(16:02):
session.
And I'll tell you what.
I went in kind of cocky on thethird one.
I was like, oh man, this isgoing to be even better, right?
No, it was pure shadow.
It was feeling all thesuffering, feeling all those
things.
But again, I have gotten to thepoint where I can see the
(16:24):
beauty of all those emotions.
So it was still a wonderfulexperience.
It just wasn't what I wasexpecting.
And that's really important.
That when somebody is doingsomething like a Kundalini
activation or, you know, a Reikisession or even a sound bath or
breath work, is it's importantto let go of having expectations
of what your experience isgoing to be and I say this at
the beginning of every session Ido, whether it's in person or
(16:48):
virtually, is you know, peoplehear my story of the experiences
I've had and they're like ohwell, sign me up, you know I'll
do one of those.
That may not be where you are,as you realize from doing the
session, you will get exactlywhat you need to get out of it,
and I've had people who havethese energetic orgasms and I've
(17:09):
had people who are wailing andcrying because it's bringing up
the trauma that they neverallowed themselves to feel.
And of the two, the latter isprobably more healing because
that is stuff that holds us back.
Like you said, you've got wallsup and you keep people at arm's
length.
When you have the opportunityto feel all of that stuff, as
(17:31):
unpleasant as it might be in themoment, really that's going to
allow you to heal and to beginto open up and that's going to
lead to the bliss and theconnection and the love that we
all want.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
Yeah, I'm actually tearing up talking about or
hearing that, but and that's,I'll do that, I'll cry.
And then my, I guess it's thethroat chakra.
It literally will like stop andseize and like not let me cry,
it'll just like get really dryso I can stop myself from crying
.
So I guess that's part ofsomething too.
I don't know exactly.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
but well, and my, my invitation for you would be stop
stopping yourself and allow itto come up yeah, I feel like I
can't.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
I'm not, I'm not person, I'm not actually
stopping it, it just stops.
But I'm sure there's somechoice in there too.
But I mean, I don't know.
Literally my throat will justget really dry after crying for
like 20 seconds.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
And my suspicion, just based on having worked with
a lot of people, is that whenthere's that kind of a blockage
in the throat chakra, it'sbecause we didn't have an
opportunity to speak up, andusually that's with parents,
sometimes that's in marriages orrelationships, but it often
goes back to a case of notfeeling heard when you were a
(18:43):
kid and I'm not saying this istrue for you.
I'm just saying that this isthings that I've heard from many
of my coaching clients is thatthey grew up in a household
where children were seen and notheard and they didn't have a
chance to voice their emotions,and it wasn't okay.
They weren't validated, and sothey carry this into their adult
(19:05):
life and it literally is storedright here in our throat, where
our voice is.
Speaker 2 (19:10):
Yeah, I would say, that fits for sure.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
In doing this work, I've actually begun to get a
much better appreciation for howwe store things in our body.
Holding our voice back in ourthroats, or I can tell when
somebody's been betrayed or hadheartache in the last six months
or a year.
I can feel the energy aroundtheir heart chakra.
Or if somebody's had sexualtrauma, there's a different
(19:33):
texture, let's say, to theenergy around the root, and I
can just especially if I'm inperson but I can actually do
this over Zoom as well is I canjust energetically scan somebody
from feet to head and findwhere there's some issue and
where it is often relates towhat it is.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
Yeah, I think I've heard that before, Cause I did
do Reiki once over Zoom and Ipretty much fell asleep
immediately.
So I don't know if that wasworking or not, but she and then
she talked about crystals andstuff too.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
So yeah Well, like I said, reiki is is love.
Right, it's love and healing,and it's a very peaceful
experience for most people.
So to fall asleep is actuallywonderful, because it means you
feel safe enough to do that, andthat's what you needed.
At the moment, we go throughlife so stressed out, in this
(20:27):
parasympathetic tone of fight orflight or freeze, and we never
drop the vigilance.
So when we find ourself in aplace where there's safety and
comfort and we can just let ourguard down and relax, it's so
blissful.
People just don't givethemselves that opportunity
often enough.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
Yeah, like people that just stay busy and don't
ever allow themselves to takesome time off to actually think
and hear the voices and all thethings going on.
Speaker 1 (20:56):
Yeah, and I know.
I've been guilty of that myself.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
Yeah, I work where everyone else listens to music
while they work and a couplepeople just recently said it
because they want to drown outthe sound or their voices in
their heads.
But I've always just not usedthe music and I don't know it
helps me be present too.
I feel like it's always a goodthing, absolutely All right.
Well, do you want to say moreabout how, if someone wanted to
(21:22):
work with you, they could onthis stuff, or in general.
Speaker 1 (21:26):
Well, in general, I am a coach.
I work.
I have worked primarily withmen over the last five years,
but I'm finding a lot of womenare actually seeking me out
because of the energy of work is, when you go to an energy
session, it's it's 80 or 90%women, for, for whatever reason,
they're just drawn to it, and Ibelieve there's something
(21:47):
especially healing for women toreceive safety and healing and
presence held by the masculine,and that's something that I
offer in my sessions withouteven intending to.
But what my real mission is isto work with men in the world so
that they can be that beacon oflight for the women around them
(22:10):
, whether it's their romanticpartner or their kids or their
mom or whatever.
I feel like that's part of mymission is to help empower other
men to do the same thing.
So you can certainly find meonline.
My energy website istantratomcom and it's a very
(22:31):
simple website.
You'll have all my socials onthere and then you'll find a way
to connect with me.
But there's also a link onthere where you can find all of
my events that I do KundaliniActivations.
I sometimes collaborate withother practitioners, so we'll
bring in divine, feminine andmasculine healing together,
which is always wonderful towork with.
(22:52):
And they are live and in personin New Jersey, pennsylvania,
sometimes New York.
But I also do virtual sessions,typically once a week, and it
does work virtually just as wellas it does in person, because
we're talking about that quantumfield, so there is no time and
space, so I can literally giveyou a healing right now.
You know whether we're even onZoom or not.
(23:14):
I could actually turn thecomputer off and just think
about it.
It's all about intention.
Speaker 2 (23:19):
Yeah, that's what the other person said too.
And then years ago I was in aconference where they had the
hangers and they were showingout energy, Like if you think
positive thoughts, the hangerswould move a certain way and if
negative thoughts, they move adifferent way or didn't move, or
something.
I forget exactly, but you knowwhat I'm talking about.
I see you're shaking your head.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
Yes, absolutely, and there's tons of studies on this
stuff where, for example, youcould take two identical plants
and put them in the same roomwith the same sunlight, the same
water, and you could write theword love on a piece of paper
and put it next to one plant.
You could write the word loveon a piece of paper and put it
next to one plant.
You could write the word hateand put it on a piece of paper
next to the other plant, and theone with the word love will
(24:00):
grow and flourish.
The one with the word hate willwither and die every time.
How is that even possible?
It's because the written wordon that piece of paper actually
carries the energy of themeaning behind the word, and
that energy has a vibration thatis affecting all living things
around it.
So the words that we speakmatter.
(24:20):
The way you talk to your kidsmatters.
When you complain aboutsomething that your spouse said,
it matters.
It's all about what we'refocused on.
So this energy stuff goes deepand it's a rabbit.
All about what we're focused on.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
So this, this energy stuff goes deep and it's a
rabbit hole that you can reallyfollow a long ways yeah, I just
um had an interview earlier andwe were talking about that too,
like the, what you say and the,and you have a choice to say
what you want to say to yourselfor about yourself.
You can stop if you can beaware again of when you're
having some saying somethingnegative and then turn it around
to a more positive spin.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
Definitely, like you're saying yeah, and the key
to that is catching yourselfright, catching those negative
thoughts.
Most of us are not even awareof our thoughts.
Like you mentioned, yourco-workers that put the earbuds
in and listen to music so theydon't even hear the thoughts.
They're still thinking thethoughts.
They still have that negativevibration.
It's when you stop and listenand you catch yourself you're
(25:13):
like, wow, I'm really talking tomyself like a jerk that you can
start to change that.
And that's where you know asimple meditation practice is.
Even if you did five minutes aday to just sit quietly and
watch your thoughts, you wouldbe amazed at the things you say
to yourself that you would neverallow somebody to say to your
kid or your girlfriend orwhatever.
(25:34):
But we're saying it toourselves all day long.
So taking five minutes and juststarting to create some
mindfulness around that is thefirst step to changing it?
Speaker 2 (25:43):
Yeah, definitely, I started doing transcendental
meditation.
You like forget for like 10minutes that you're even
thinking things and then you'relike, oh wait, I was doing that.
And then you go back tomeditating, which, with
transcendental meditation, it'san actual mantra.
So every time you remember yougo back to your mantra.
But yeah, it's interesting,when I do it less frequently it
(26:04):
takes me a lot longer to getback to remembering to do my
mantra instead of having mybrain go.
Speaker 1 (26:10):
Sure, it's like anything.
You just need to practice it tobe good at it, tamara, the last
thing I want to share aboutthis whole kundalini energy
thing you know we're talkingabout these energetic orgasms
and these ecstatic experiencesthat are better than sex is the
part that your listeners mightbe very interested in is when
you combine the two things.
When you bring this energy workand you combine it with actual
(26:33):
physical sex with somebody thatyou're connected with, it's like
they multiply each other, andthat is the piece that got so
popularized by tantric sex ispeople would bring the energy
work in the rising of thekundalini into the bedroom and
they marketed that, and it is anabsolutely incredible
(26:55):
experience.
But I believe that to havetruly the best experience you
can have, it's got to be rootedin the spiritual aspect of this.
We can go do a kundaliniactivation and hope to get off
cosmically, or we can steal apart of it and bring it into the
bedroom to feed our ego ofbeing a better lover.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
We can really truly dive into it and experience the
bliss of both.
That multiplies each other.
Yeah, I can definitely see thatHaving.
The ideal, I would say, is tohave both.
Was that your final thoughts,or did you want to add another
final thought?
Speaker 1 (27:33):
No, I think that's a good place to wrap it up.
Speaker 2 (27:35):
Yeah, I agree, all right.
Well, thank you again for beingon and if you love this episode
, be sure to tell your friendsabout it and rate it as well,
and thank you again.
Thanks, tamara.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
Frank Talk.
Frank Talk Sex and DatingEducates.
Welcome to the Straight from the Source's Mouth
.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
Podcast Frank talk about sex and dating.
Hello, tamara here, welcome tothe show.
Today's guest is back again,tom Bushku, ceo and founder of
Primal Divinity Coaching, andthis time we'll be talking about
Kundalini energy and Tantra.
Thanks for joining me again,tom.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
It's great to be back , Tamara.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
But yeah.
So how did you get started withit, or how did you come to know
about it?
Speaker 1 (00:27):
I had heard of the word kundalini just in terms of
kundalini yoga.
I remember I first read aboutit in some fiction book I don't
remember what it was as thisweird mystical thing where
people can control their heartrate and all these crazy things,
and so I knew that this thingexisted, but I didn't know what
(00:47):
it was.
And I'm talking this is yearsago, 10 or 15 years ago but I've
been doing energy work forprobably 25 years.
I'm a Reiki master and I gotattuned to Reiki just so that I
could give the energy healing tomyself without having to go
find somebody else to do it forme, because I experienced it
(01:09):
once.
It made me feel better and Iwanted more of it, and so I've
been in the world of energyhealing for a long time, but I
never really did much with it.
I didn't do it for other peopleother than my mom as she was
getting older, or I would dosome Reiki treatments on my kids
when they were toddlers, tryingto get them to go to sleep,
which works, because it's justlove.
(01:31):
Healing energy that's what allforms of energy healing really
are.
That was really kind of ituntil I started to explore some
other practices through somemen's coaching that I did and we
were doing some, someconsciousness exercises is what
we call them, and that issomatic work.
It's that's about finding theemotions that are stored in our
(01:53):
body and which is absolutelyscientific and legitimate, and
that we go off on a wholetangent on that.
But that's what really kind ofgot me opened up to the idea of
energy.
And as I was doing that work,that somatic work, those
consciousness exercises, I beganto get in touch more with my
own energy and the energy that'sall around us.
(02:15):
Some people will call it thequantum field or the universal
subconscious.
You know it's the same thingthat people use when they're
using psychic abilities orchanneling like mediums.
It's.
You know, in Star Wars theycalled it the force.
It's really all the same thing.
And so I began to get familiarwith this through just wanting
(02:36):
to get better, wanting to healmyself.
And I mentioned Kundalini at onepoint to one of the brothers in
my community and, lo and behold, not a week later it pops up.
I click on a real estate eventon Eventbrite and then at the
bottom you know how it suggestsvarious things you might be
interested, and one of thesuggestions was a Kundalini
(02:59):
activation.
I'm like, hey, I was justtalking about that, let me see
what that's all about.
And it was close by, it waslike 45 minutes away.
It was perfect because it wason what would have been my
anniversary, having just gottendivorced that year, married for
(03:20):
the first time to treat myselfto something like this.
So I went to my first Kundaliniactivation, not really knowing
what to expect, just thinkingthis would be a nice addition to
some of the things that I do,and I was absolutely blown away.
I think I've shared this withyou directly, but it was an
(03:43):
experience beyond anything I'veever had in the 3D world,
meaning that I experienced suchpleasure and bliss and ecstasy
that I honestly don't even careif I have sex again, because it
was 10 times better and thatdoesn't even do it justice.
(04:04):
Because it was 10 times betterand that doesn't even do it
justice.
You know to describe theexperience a little bit more
Well, actually, let me.
Let me back up a little bit,because your question is you
know, around kundalini energy,what?
What is it right?
Because that kind of needs tobe understood first.
Kundalini energy is our lifeforce, it's our chi, our prana,
(04:24):
it's our spirit, it's our soul,it's that which animates us
right, it's what gives our bodylife, it's our consciousness,
it's all those different things.
And this idea of kundalinienergy actually comes from
tantra philosophy, which is bornfrom ancient India a thousand
years ago.
And people automatically hearthe word tantra and they just
(04:46):
think kinky sex.
And it's yes, and it's so muchmore.
Tantra got commercialized andwesternized back in the late 60s
, early 70s, because sex sellsand they took that 1% of 1% of
what tantra is, which is reallyeverything.
It's really a spiritualphilosophy.
But within that tantraphilosophy is this idea of
(05:09):
kundalini energy, this lifeforce, energy that we all have
inside of us.
And in that philosophy thekundalini energy is dormant at
the base of our spine andthere's all these little details
, that kind of don't matterThings like you know.
It's coiled like a serpentthree and a half times and it
rises through these channelscalled nadis which crisscross at
(05:32):
the chakras, and you can getinto some serious woo-woo energy
stuff if you want to.
But the bottom line is thatthis is our life force, this is
our energy, this is ourconsciousness, but in most of us
it's resonating at a lowvibration and it lies dormant
and we're not tapping into it.
So what we're doing in akundalini activation, or the
(06:00):
purpose of practices likekundalini yoga, is we're waking
that up, we're raising thatkundalini energy like we are
uncoilingiling the serpent, andwe're rising it from the root up
to the higher chakras so thatit literally raises the
frequency that we're vibratingat as human beings and as
spiritual beings and it changesour consciousness and it changes
how we experience the worldyeah, that's a lot.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
No, and and I I do think this stuff exists.
I totally believe what you'resaying.
So, yeah, I know there's someskeptics out there, but I still
think this is great informationto have.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
Yeah, and I mean, this is all real whether
somebody believes in it or not,right?
I mean, you could tell somebodythere's no such thing as gravity
, but if you step off a buildingyou're going to hit the
pavement.
I believe the same thing istrue in this world of energy.
You know, if you need to takeit from a scientific mindset and
say, well, it's just thequantum field, there's science
that proves it's real.
(06:54):
So explain it however you want.
It's real.
And there's no denying what myexperience was and and what
happened.
And I'll tell you.
What happened when I had thatKundalini activation is that
because I had been doing so muchwork previous to that, I did a
lot of shadow work.
I got with all my wounds and mytraumas and my all the things
(07:16):
that are are are shadow right.
All the, all the things that wewe think happened to us, we
think poor me, why was I abused?
Why was I abandoned?
And I felt all that stuff and Ilearned to see the gift in all
those things through the men'swork that I do and because I had
done all of that work prior todoing a kundalini activation,
(07:38):
when I went into the session Iwas already pretty open, like
I'd cleared a lot of theblockages and I was ready to
receive.
And so when the facilitatorcame around the room and was
working on everybody which I canexplain how that works later my
channels were clear and theenergy was able to rise.
(08:01):
And so when it rose, it rose bigand hard to throw a sexual
innuendo in there, right, and itwas like I said.
It was like a spiritual orgasmis how some people describe it
and I was literally on the flooron a yoga mat, back arched,
head thrown back, crying out.
(08:21):
And yet it was not a physicalsensation like a sexual orgasm
when you ejaculate.
It was so much beyond that, itwas whole body and outside of
the body, like I could tell youthat for me it felt like this
ecstatic experience was centeredabout a foot off of my heart
(08:42):
chakra, and that was where Iexperienced this bliss and this
pleasure, and it was new levelsof pleasure than I ever knew was
even possible, and I wasabsolutely blown away and I knew
after the first session that Iwas going to have to learn this
and bring this to more people.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
Yeah, I mean obviously it learn this and
bring this to more people.
Yeah, I mean, obviously itsounds like something people
want to do and you're like, hey,let me tell more people about
this.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
For sure.
And then I had my secondsession and it was even beyond
that, it exceeded the firstsession.
You know, the first session, Ithought I hit the limit of what
pleasure could be.
(09:27):
And then I had the firstsession.
You know the first session, Ithought I hit the limit of what
what pleasure could be.
And then I had the secondsession and it was like, oh my
God, it blew it away and therewas like a new ceiling of what I
could feel, so much so that itactually triggered some feelings
of, oh, am I actually worthy offeeling this?
Good, right, and that's theshadow work that I talked about.
Right, and I've.
Fortunately, I had lots ofexperience feeling that, so I
was able to dive into that andthen come out of it and go back
into the pleasure and the bliss,and it made me realize that,
(09:48):
well, wait a minute, maybe thisisn't really the ceiling of
what's possible to experience.
Maybe there's even more, and Ijust think this is the limit,
just like it did the first time.
And so it really opened my eyesto what we can experience as
human beings, whether we'retalking about sex or energy or
anything else in life.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
Yeah, I mean I need to mention the shadow work.
So I know I told you I had, Idid it with you and then I also
had done it previously and theonly thing that happened really
was my right arm kept hurting,like literally just kept shaking
it because it just felt off.
So I don't know what kind ofblockage that is exactly, but I
have not done as much shadowwork.
I'm aware of everything, but Idon't know if I've done the work
(10:29):
to rid it of whatever you dowith it.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
Well, I'll tell you you don't rid yourself of it,
you don't get free from it, youget free with it.
And that's one of the thingsthat my mentor had learned and
(11:02):
shared with me that allsuffering is really the
avoidance of suffering.
And when we can dive into thesuffering and experience the
beauty of it, it no longer ownsus.
And that's the work that needsto be done before we can open up
to the other experiences thatwe want.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
Yeah, I've heard it said that you choose it.
Is that kind of the same thing?
Would you say, accepting it,choosing it like, instead of
trying, like you said, trying toresist it?
Speaker 1 (11:29):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
That would be another way of describing it All right,
and do you want to talk abouthow you were able to get rid of
this shot or not get rid of, howyou're able to live with the
stuff, or is that?
Or is there more to say aboutkundalini itself, or well, I
just want to give people an eye,a way of how they could do it.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
But then also you know the potential to work with
you or someone like you I'dactually be curious to hear a
little bit more about yourexperience with you know,
whether it was with the previoustime or with me because I, I
think, can give some people anidea of what the other
experiences they might have areor could be yeah, for mine it
was during a retreat the firsttime, and it was all women and
(12:10):
we were in a circle, like ourheads were in the center and we
were kind of fanned out.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
There was a, you know , energy healer, I'm guessing.
Like you, I can't rememberexactly, I just know we were
doing like a ceremony around itand I think, and there was sound
and, like I said, she was justand there's parts are breathing
in it too, like do you dodifferent breathing techniques
or is that there?
I did so many different thingsI can't remember which one was
yeah, it depends.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
I like I'll actually bring in some breathing
techniques, but most kundalinifacilitators do not yes, because
I can't remember if it was withthat or not.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
But I'll, like I said , the main thing I remember is
just like uncontrollably, my arm.
I was just like pain, pain, andI would just shake it out
because it was like hurting andthat's I don't know.
That's really I don't remember.
And then other people aredefinitely like you were saying,
they're making sounds and stuffand they were getting more out
of it or different things out ofit, and I guess she was
(13:06):
explaining where you're feelingstuff is depends on different
things, but I can't rememberwhat she had said about it.
So, I don't know if there's anyspecific thing about arms
hurting or not.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
I'm sure it all has a meaning and I don't pretend to
know it all.
What was your experience lastweek working with me?
Speaker 2 (13:25):
Unfortunately, I turned down the sound, so I
think that was part of it.
It was too loud in thebeginning when you were talking,
only so then I turned it downand then when the music was on,
I did not turn it up, so itwasn't getting the full
immersive effect.
That I think would have beenmore helpful.
And, like I said, I haveblockages and all this stuff.
I know of my issues and traumasand stuff, but being aware of
(13:50):
them and doing something aboutthem are two different things
and I have walls up pretty hardlike defense mechanisms and
stuff.
So it might take a little more.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
Tamara, that's great awareness and just like they
tell alcoholics, the first stepis admitting that you have a
problem.
Recognizing that you have sometraumas and some blocks and some
walls is the first thing thatneeds to happen before you can
start to do anything about it.
So give yourself some creditfor that.
Yeah, I mean, I've definitelyworked with people and, through
this, stuff happen before youcan start to do anything about
it.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
So give yourself some credit for that.
Yeah, I mean, I've definitelyworked with people and through
the stuff, but my follow throughhas always been the issue.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
Yeah, Well, it's not.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
I have.
Yeah, I've been aware.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
Yeah, I'm sorry I cut you off, but it's not pleasant
to go into those things andthat's why we avoid it.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
Yeah, I mean, for me it's more a defense mechanism of
pushing people away and keepingpeople at arm's length and
coming off across as aloofgenerally and, yeah, just
protecting myself that way.
But there were a few yearswhere I was not doing that.
I let my walls down and thenthey slowly went back up.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
I appreciate you sharing that and I think that's
something a lot of people canrelate to.
And you know, ultimately, thatall comes down to fear.
You know, fear of losing love,fear of getting hurt.
You know, in some variety, andyou know you asked about the
shadow work that I've donethat's really the core of it is
I have felt all of those thingsand I've allowed myself to go
(15:20):
deeper and deeper and deeperinto those feelings of feeling
unlovable and unworthy and notgood enough and can't get it
right of people in my life willbring that back up right,
they'll trigger those feelingsand even to this day it's not
like you do this once and you'regood.
It's like brushing your teethyou know you brush your teeth
(15:40):
and you're great in the morning,but then by the time you're
going to bed you've eaten allday and you've got to clean
things out.
It's the same thing,energetically and emotionally.
Things happen and old thingscome up again and again and it's
another opportunity to fullyfeel it and experience it.
And that happened, actually,when I did my third Kundalini
(16:02):
session.
And I'll tell you what.
I went in kind of cocky on thethird one.
I was like, oh man, this isgoing to be even better, right?
No, it was pure shadow.
It was feeling all thesuffering, feeling all those
things.
But again, I have gotten to thepoint where I can see the
(16:24):
beauty of all those emotions.
So it was still a wonderfulexperience.
It just wasn't what I wasexpecting.
And that's really important.
That when somebody is doingsomething like a Kundalini
activation or, you know, a Reikisession or even a sound bath or
breath work, is it's importantto let go of having expectations
of what your experience isgoing to be and I say this at
the beginning of every session Ido, whether it's in person or
(16:48):
virtually, is you know, peoplehear my story of the experiences
I've had and they're like ohwell, sign me up, you know I'll
do one of those.
That may not be where you are,as you realize from doing the
session, you will get exactlywhat you need to get out of it,
and I've had people who havethese energetic orgasms and I've
(17:09):
had people who are wailing andcrying because it's bringing up
the trauma that they neverallowed themselves to feel.
And of the two, the latter isprobably more healing because
that is stuff that holds us back.
Like you said, you've got wallsup and you keep people at arm's
length.
When you have the opportunityto feel all of that stuff, as
(17:31):
unpleasant as it might be in themoment, really that's going to
allow you to heal and to beginto open up and that's going to
lead to the bliss and theconnection and the love that we
all want.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
Yeah, I'm actually tearing up talking about or
hearing that, but and that's,I'll do that, I'll cry.
And then my, I guess it's thethroat chakra.
It literally will like stop andseize and like not let me cry,
it'll just like get really dryso I can stop myself from crying
.
So I guess that's part ofsomething too.
I don't know exactly.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
but well, and my, my invitation for you would be stop
stopping yourself and allow itto come up yeah, I feel like I
can't.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
I'm not, I'm not person, I'm not actually
stopping it, it just stops.
But I'm sure there's somechoice in there too.
But I mean, I don't know.
Literally my throat will justget really dry after crying for
like 20 seconds.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
And my suspicion, just based on having worked with
a lot of people, is that whenthere's that kind of a blockage
in the throat chakra, it'sbecause we didn't have an
opportunity to speak up, andusually that's with parents,
sometimes that's in marriages orrelationships, but it often
goes back to a case of notfeeling heard when you were a
(18:43):
kid and I'm not saying this istrue for you.
I'm just saying that this isthings that I've heard from many
of my coaching clients is thatthey grew up in a household
where children were seen and notheard and they didn't have a
chance to voice their emotions,and it wasn't okay.
They weren't validated, and sothey carry this into their adult
(19:05):
life and it literally is storedright here in our throat, where
our voice is.
Speaker 2 (19:10):
Yeah, I would say, that fits for sure.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
In doing this work, I've actually begun to get a
much better appreciation for howwe store things in our body.
Holding our voice back in ourthroats, or I can tell when
somebody's been betrayed or hadheartache in the last six months
or a year.
I can feel the energy aroundtheir heart chakra.
Or if somebody's had sexualtrauma, there's a different
(19:33):
texture, let's say, to theenergy around the root, and I
can just especially if I'm inperson but I can actually do
this over Zoom as well is I canjust energetically scan somebody
from feet to head and findwhere there's some issue and
where it is often relates towhat it is.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
Yeah, I think I've heard that before, Cause I did
do Reiki once over Zoom and Ipretty much fell asleep
immediately.
So I don't know if that wasworking or not, but she and then
she talked about crystals andstuff too.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
So yeah Well, like I said, reiki is is love.
Right, it's love and healing,and it's a very peaceful
experience for most people.
So to fall asleep is actuallywonderful, because it means you
feel safe enough to do that, andthat's what you needed.
At the moment, we go throughlife so stressed out, in this
(20:27):
parasympathetic tone of fight orflight or freeze, and we never
drop the vigilance.
So when we find ourself in aplace where there's safety and
comfort and we can just let ourguard down and relax, it's so
blissful.
People just don't givethemselves that opportunity
often enough.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
Yeah, like people that just stay busy and don't
ever allow themselves to takesome time off to actually think
and hear the voices and all thethings going on.
Speaker 1 (20:56):
Yeah, and I know.
I've been guilty of that myself.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
Yeah, I work where everyone else listens to music
while they work and a couplepeople just recently said it
because they want to drown outthe sound or their voices in
their heads.
But I've always just not usedthe music and I don't know it
helps me be present too.
I feel like it's always a goodthing, absolutely All right.
Well, do you want to say moreabout how, if someone wanted to
(21:22):
work with you, they could onthis stuff, or in general.
Speaker 1 (21:26):
Well, in general, I am a coach.
I work.
I have worked primarily withmen over the last five years,
but I'm finding a lot of womenare actually seeking me out
because of the energy of work is, when you go to an energy
session, it's it's 80 or 90%women, for, for whatever reason,
they're just drawn to it, and Ibelieve there's something
(21:47):
especially healing for women toreceive safety and healing and
presence held by the masculine,and that's something that I
offer in my sessions withouteven intending to.
But what my real mission is isto work with men in the world so
that they can be that beacon oflight for the women around them
(22:10):
, whether it's their romanticpartner or their kids or their
mom or whatever.
I feel like that's part of mymission is to help empower other
men to do the same thing.
So you can certainly find meonline.
My energy website istantratomcom and it's a very
(22:31):
simple website.
You'll have all my socials onthere and then you'll find a way
to connect with me.
But there's also a link onthere where you can find all of
my events that I do KundaliniActivations.
I sometimes collaborate withother practitioners, so we'll
bring in divine, feminine andmasculine healing together,
which is always wonderful towork with.
(22:52):
And they are live and in personin New Jersey, pennsylvania,
sometimes New York.
But I also do virtual sessions,typically once a week, and it
does work virtually just as wellas it does in person, because
we're talking about that quantumfield, so there is no time and
space, so I can literally giveyou a healing right now.
You know whether we're even onZoom or not.
(23:14):
I could actually turn thecomputer off and just think
about it.
It's all about intention.
Speaker 2 (23:19):
Yeah, that's what the other person said too.
And then years ago I was in aconference where they had the
hangers and they were showingout energy, Like if you think
positive thoughts, the hangerswould move a certain way and if
negative thoughts, they move adifferent way or didn't move, or
something.
I forget exactly, but you knowwhat I'm talking about.
I see you're shaking your head.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
Yes, absolutely, and there's tons of studies on this
stuff where, for example, youcould take two identical plants
and put them in the same roomwith the same sunlight, the same
water, and you could write theword love on a piece of paper
and put it next to one plant.
You could write the word loveon a piece of paper and put it
next to one plant.
You could write the word hateand put it on a piece of paper
next to the other plant, and theone with the word love will
(24:00):
grow and flourish.
The one with the word hate willwither and die every time.
How is that even possible?
It's because the written wordon that piece of paper actually
carries the energy of themeaning behind the word, and
that energy has a vibration thatis affecting all living things
around it.
So the words that we speakmatter.
(24:20):
The way you talk to your kidsmatters.
When you complain aboutsomething that your spouse said,
it matters.
It's all about what we'refocused on.
So this energy stuff goes deepand it's a rabbit.
All about what we're focused on.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
So this, this energy stuff goes deep and it's a
rabbit hole that you can reallyfollow a long ways yeah, I just
um had an interview earlier andwe were talking about that too,
like the, what you say and the,and you have a choice to say
what you want to say to yourselfor about yourself.
You can stop if you can beaware again of when you're
having some saying somethingnegative and then turn it around
to a more positive spin.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
Definitely, like you're saying yeah, and the key
to that is catching yourselfright, catching those negative
thoughts.
Most of us are not even awareof our thoughts.
Like you mentioned, yourco-workers that put the earbuds
in and listen to music so theydon't even hear the thoughts.
They're still thinking thethoughts.
They still have that negativevibration.
It's when you stop and listenand you catch yourself you're
(25:13):
like, wow, I'm really talking tomyself like a jerk that you can
start to change that.
And that's where you know asimple meditation practice is.
Even if you did five minutes aday to just sit quietly and
watch your thoughts, you wouldbe amazed at the things you say
to yourself that you would neverallow somebody to say to your
kid or your girlfriend orwhatever.
(25:34):
But we're saying it toourselves all day long.
So taking five minutes and juststarting to create some
mindfulness around that is thefirst step to changing it?
Speaker 2 (25:43):
Yeah, definitely, I started doing transcendental
meditation.
You like forget for like 10minutes that you're even
thinking things and then you'relike, oh wait, I was doing that.
And then you go back tomeditating, which, with
transcendental meditation, it'san actual mantra.
So every time you remember yougo back to your mantra.
But yeah, it's interesting,when I do it less frequently it
(26:04):
takes me a lot longer to getback to remembering to do my
mantra instead of having mybrain go.
Speaker 1 (26:10):
Sure, it's like anything.
You just need to practice it tobe good at it, tamara, the last
thing I want to share aboutthis whole kundalini energy
thing you know we're talkingabout these energetic orgasms
and these ecstatic experiencesthat are better than sex is the
part that your listeners mightbe very interested in is when
you combine the two things.
When you bring this energy workand you combine it with actual
(26:33):
physical sex with somebody thatyou're connected with, it's like
they multiply each other, andthat is the piece that got so
popularized by tantric sex ispeople would bring the energy
work in the rising of thekundalini into the bedroom and
they marketed that, and it is anabsolutely incredible
(26:55):
experience.
But I believe that to havetruly the best experience you
can have, it's got to be rootedin the spiritual aspect of this.
We can go do a kundaliniactivation and hope to get off
cosmically, or we can steal apart of it and bring it into the
bedroom to feed our ego ofbeing a better lover.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
We can really truly dive into it and experience the
bliss of both.
That multiplies each other.
Yeah, I can definitely see thatHaving.
The ideal, I would say, is tohave both.
Was that your final thoughts,or did you want to add another
final thought?
Speaker 1 (27:33):
No, I think that's a good place to wrap it up.
Speaker 2 (27:35):
Yeah, I agree, all right.
Well, thank you again for beingon and if you love this episode
, be sure to tell your friendsabout it and rate it as well,
and thank you again.
Thanks, tamara.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
Frank Talk.
Frank Talk Sex and DatingEducates.
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