June 24, 2025 • 31 mins
Dating coach Mark Rosenfeld pulls back the curtain on why modern dating feels so frustrating despite our unprecedented connectivity. Drawing from his own journey overcoming social anxiety to become Australia's leading women's dating coach, Mark delivers refreshingly practical wisdom about finding meaningful connections.
"We're so connected, now more than ever, and yet we all feel so disconnected," Mark observes about today's dating landscape. His approach balances strategic action with emotional intelligence, helping women navigate both online platforms and in-person opportunities. Rather than exhausting yourself with marathon swiping sessions, Mark recommends consistent, small daily actions that prevent burnout while maximizing genuine connections.
The conversation explores the surprising truth about "high value" partners - they're rarely who we initially imagine them to be. While many daters fixate on status markers like appearance or profession, true relationship compatibility stems from emotional safety, mutual respect, and relationship skills that only become visible over time. This explains why many of Mark's clients end up happily partnered with someone who didn't match their original checklist but makes them feel deeply understood.
Perhaps most illuminating is Mark's expertise on attachment dynamics, particularly the anxious-avoidant dance that characterizes so many struggling relationships. He shares practical techniques for managing emotional dysregulation during conflicts, including creating agreements in peaceful moments that prevent harmful escalations when triggers arise. His insight that "resentments are unspoken expectations" unlocks a simple yet powerful path to reducing relationship friction through clear communication.
Throughout the episode, vulnerability emerges as the bridge to authentic connection. Whether you're navigating online dating algorithms or trying to communicate needs to a partner, leading with emotional honesty creates the foundation for meaningful relationships. Curious about transforming your approach to dating? Mark's program "Make Him Yours" and his online resources offer pathways to develop both the strategy and emotional intelligence needed to thrive in today's complex dating world.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Straight from the Source's Mouth
.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
Podcast Frank talk about sex and dating.
Hello, Tamara here, Welcome tothe show.
Today's guest is Mark Rosenfeld, Australia's number one dating
and relationship coach for women, and we'll be talking about his
program Make Him Yours andother dating topics.
Thanks for joining me, Mark.
It's a pleasure.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Thank you for having me, Tamara joining me.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Mark, it's a pleasure .
Thank you for having metomorrow.
Yes, I think this will be agreat topic.
Obviously, there's a lot ofstruggles out there for dating,
so I'm sure women would like tohear some answers about how to
do it better.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
There is.
It's a tough landscape outthere and, you know, covid, I
think, really set us back in alot of ways, and we're still
recovering and kind of rallyingback from it, and that there's
just it's.
It's strange, isn't it?
We're so connected, now morethan ever, and yet we all, many
of us, feel so disconnected,especially when it comes to
dating, and it's a real paradoxthat modern daters are
(00:57):
struggling with yeah, because iteveryone's on the apps, or at
least it seems like people arefinally starting to actually
look up in real life and try tomeet people that way.
Yes.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
I'm sure maybe we can start with tips on how women
could make it known that they'reinterested or talk about your
program.
Whichever direction you want tostart with or how you even got
into this.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
Yeah, I mean I got into this from my own.
I was talking about this with aclient this morning.
This, yeah, I mean I got intothis from my own.
I was talking about this with aclient this morning.
Actually, I got into this frommy own place of social anxiety,
which is I just didn't know howto meet women talk about really
girls at the time.
It's kind of that age bracketDidn't know how to meet, didn't
know how to talk.
So much social anxiety, almostno experience.
And it's interesting because aclient asked me this morning.
(01:42):
She said you know, I reallywant to be more social and have
the opportunity to meet more men.
The problem is a lot of peoplein my sort of culture city
aren't used to talking tostrangers and so I kind of get
these weird looks when I do andthen it exacerbates my shame and
I kind of have the same thingthat I'm fearing gets brought up
by literal strangers.
And I said to her look, I canrelate to that when I first
(02:04):
started going out.
You know, you don't have a lotof confidence, you're sort of
extremely shy and awkward.
And then you walk up, you know,to a woman you find attractive
and you go hi, nice to meet you.
I'm Mark.
You know you get the same lookright, which is it's hard to
meet people out there, and a bigpart of this is kind of
(02:25):
discovering all right.
Well, why am I doing thisbeyond just meeting someone?
Where is the growth here?
And for me there was a coupleof things.
There was building my sociallife became one of the big
beacons.
Okay, no matter what happenswith this person, I meet with
this stranger.
I took an action to build mysocial life, so that's still a
win.
And the second is buildingresistance and internal
validation against the storiesthat the process was building up
(02:48):
.
So, oh, I talked to a strangerI'm attracted to and I get a
terrible look or a back turn orsomething that feels really bad.
That brings up my shame and myfears.
Am I a creeper?
Am I bad?
Am I that unattractive?
Whatever the shame is, and thenyou're sort of standing on your
own in that moment.
And who's going to validate you?
(03:10):
The stranger?
Sure as hell isn't.
So you really only haveyourself to validate you in that
moment.
And if you do that enough timesand if you consciously say,
look, it's not about thestranger's validation, it's
actually about me taking actionfor something I believe in, you
start to become more comfortablein the process, so naturally
you relax more and ironically,that's when strangers start
(03:30):
responding to you better, ifyou're out there meeting
strangers in person.
So it's a tough process and Iencourage a lot of clients look.
If you don't want to do it onhard mode to begin with, if you
don't want to walk up to peoplein the supermarket or try to get
people to approach you acrossthe coffee store, whatever it is
, Start in environments whereit's natural to meet people.
Do hobbies, do classes, go toshows, go to dance events, find
(03:52):
stuff that you are learning,meet up groups where it's
expected to meet people.
A lot of these things,especially if you don't have a
social circle, are a great wayto start those social muscles,
get them practiced, get themlubricated again.
Especially for us introvertspost-COVID, that's a hard wheel
to get turning and you have toreally decide.
All right, my social life is apriority, I'm going to work on
(04:13):
it, I'm going to meet people and, no matter what the result is,
I'm proud to work on that area.
That's really going to help youin the offline world, in the
online world.
I don't want to spend too muchtime on this unless your
audience wants to hear it.
I get my clients to be reallyspecific while still being
attractive.
Often it's hard tomorrow forthose two things to come
(04:33):
together.
We can either be extremelyattractive and I'll show my
clients how to glow withfeminine energy and just how to
really show up on an app and howto be the most interesting,
energizing, feminine woman onthe app.
Then every single guy wants tomeet them and they're
overwhelmed by 48,000 matchesvery, very quickly.
Or you go the other route,which is here's what I'm looking
(04:53):
for.
I want someone who was, you know, a strict Christian, born on
the 17th of July, star signCapricorn, who knows how to cook
, who can show sadness.
And you have all these traitsand everyone looks at you and
goes, oh, that's a little bit ofgendery, that's a little bit
much, and no one clicks on you.
So how do you do both at thesame time?
I guess what I've sort ofmastered for myself and my
(05:16):
clients is how to do those twothings at the same time.
How do you be radiant andattractive, feminine, engaging?
How do you be the mostinteresting person that he is
chatting to on that app whilealso being incredibly choosy and
having an excellent filteringprocess and doing all that in
less than 20 minutes a day.
That's kind of the system thatI use for online because, again,
(05:38):
it's hard to do those twothings at the same time.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
Yeah, and that's exactly what you do need, like
you said, the combo of the two,and not to spend so much time,
because people get burned outwithin minutes or days.
They're like I'm over it andthey give up all the time.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
Yeah, and unfortunately, like many things,
slow and steady wins the race Alittle bit each day.
What is it?
The Apple app of the day keepsthe doctor away.
It's kind of that saying we gotas kids.
It's a little bit of exerciseeach day, you know it keeps the
doctor away.
And a little bit of meetingpeople each day, whether it's
online or offline, keeps yoursocial life flowing and probably
keeps your dating life flowingvery well as well.
(06:13):
But if you go in with all gunsblazing, go for a big burst.
Yeah, I often see people burnout very quickly and then it's
not fun.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
And as soon as it stops becoming fun, someone's
going to quit that within weeksor months.
It's not going to last.
And the idea of a high valuewoman what would you say, makes
someone high?
Speaker 1 (06:36):
value, or is that even like a bad term?
Yeah, it's a good question,isn't it?
Because I think the term isoften referred to as status, and
status and relationship are notoften the same thing, or at
least relationship ability,relationship skills, because
high value we often perceive,you know, online it's it's
really the.
There's a very small percentageof people who are they, their
(06:58):
job is successful, they lookattractive, um, they seem to
speak well and you can see thestats.
Most women reject most menonline and, unfortunately, pick
a very small portion of menbecause they're trying to filter
the best men and, with solittle information to go on, the
best profiles get a lot ofattention, but not necessarily
(07:18):
the best men.
So we're going to call thosethe high value men because they
look like models, or maybebecause they have a good job, or
maybe because they could justtake a solid photo and chat
while like it's.
It's a really confusing termand I do think it gets it's hard
for us as human beings not toconsider status, because status
is, it's built into our DNA.
Women are always going to havea level of hmm well, do I feel
(07:42):
safe with him as in in terms ofhis resources, his physical
stature, his looks, how muchmoney he makes I mean, those
things are always going tomatter to a degree.
Is that what makes someone highvalue, though?
Because those things which wefind most attractive are not
necessarily the things that aregoing to make a relationship the
most successful.
What makes a relationshipsuccessful is vulnerability.
(08:02):
What makes a relationshipsuccessful is being able to be
self-aware and seek help for ourtrauma patterns.
What makes a relationshipsuccessful is being able to go
through tough times and exhibitchallenging relationship skills
when trauma comes up.
So are those things high value?
Are they sexy?
I don't know, but they'reeffective.
So, yeah, I think everyone haskind of a different meaning of
(08:26):
that term.
It's not really a term that Iuse.
If someone says, hey, I wantsomeone who's attractive to me
and has compatibility, chemistryand relationship skills, you
know I can get behind that.
That's a high value person.
But it also means that highvalue, then, is something we
need to find out, because you'renever going to know someone's
relationship skills in the firstcouple of dates.
So, yeah, it's not a term thatI use for that reasons.
(08:49):
I think it's just a bit tootied up with status, and status
doesn't necessarily reflectrelationship skills.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
Yeah.
Yeah, I definitely agree Withsome of your clients.
When you work with them, arethey surprised by who they end
up being with or who they'reattracted to.
When you get them to see thevalue versus status stuff.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
I don't know if they're surprised as much as it
sort of happens.
And then I do hear the commentyou know, he maybe didn't have
the great profile, but I gavehim a chance.
Or if I meet the guy in personthey say look, if I met him
online I probably would haveswiped to no.
So I guess from thatperspective there's some
surprise there.
You know, I generally work withwomen most of the time.
(09:30):
Now I still work with a few menhere and there.
Women trust they're intuitive,they're emotional, and this
isn't to generalize, of course,but women really do.
You know they're emotionalbeings, they listen to their
emotions, they listen to theirintuition for guidance, and
that's really important, that'sa really big skill.
So sometimes that persondoesn't come out necessarily how
(09:54):
you perfectly imagined.
It looks wise, emotionally, youfeel so safe with him that that
you connect to him and I I dosee that again and again.
So I guess in that sense isthat the exact physical
description.
Or did I?
Did I ever imagine myselfdating a car mechanic?
Maybe not, but you meet thatcar mechanic.
(10:15):
He makes you feel safe, hetreats you well, he's respectful
, he actually has somerelationship skills which maybe,
stereotypically, isn'tsomething you necessarily quote
unquote.
Imagine a car mechanic wouldhave this one does, and you fall
in love.
And is that surprising?
I?
I guess it is in a way, butit's um, it's part of the
process of being curious about ahuman being, and who knows
(10:36):
where we end up after that yeah,yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
And what?
What do you typical clientscome to you for, like, what have
they struggled with?
Speaker 1 (10:44):
or what's the biggest , I mean the biggest presenting
complaint is always I'm notmeeting the people I want to
meet.
I'm not meeting the caliber orquality of men I want to meet,
and so sometimes there's athere's obviously well, always
there's a strategic component tothat.
How are you meeting?
Well, always there's astrategic component to that.
How are you meeting people?
And then there's a selfcomponent to that how
resourceful are you being?
And sometimes there's a traumacomponent as well.
How are you pushing people awaythat could actually be good for
(11:06):
you?
For example, if you're justdedicated to chasing that banker
who makes 500K and looks greaton paper, there's actually a
subtle form of emotionalunavailability in that on your
side, because it's oh, I'mchasing someone who would never
actually commit to me.
Now I'm not saying there'sbankers that don't commit, but
(11:27):
if we get so specific, soincredibly specific, with our
niche, it's actually a reallysneaky way to avoid almost
everyone.
Because there are so few peoplein that category, the odds of
you meeting someone is prettyslim.
So, ironically, you get to staysafe and single if you just
focus on an extremely tightniche.
Now I can go the other way aswell.
(11:47):
I've also had clients wheretheir niche is too open and
they're too open-minded and Ihad one client, for example,
where she said you know, I justjust I really understand people.
I really get that peoplestruggle and I get that.
I get people in a way mostother women don't or most other
people don't, and she's anempath, she's a former nurse, so
it's kind of fits that mold,but she was allowing in guys who
(12:10):
, it's like they had majortrauma histories that were
unhealed and there's nothingwrong with the trauma history we
all have it.
But if it's unhealed and ifit's getting vomited on you,
then yeah, you do need to judgethat, not as a person, you need
to judge them as a bad match foryou.
Again, I think sometimesthere's women who struggle to
differentiate judgment anddiscernment.
It's like, if we want to putsemantics on it, judgment is I'm
(12:35):
assessing the person'scharacter as negative.
Discernment is I'm assessingthem as a negative match for me
because of the way they'reshowing up and they feel that
when I'm being discerning, I'mbeing judgmental and I don't
want to be judgmental.
Therefore, people get too manychances.
So I've seen both sides of thatspectrum.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
Yeah, yeah, I can see that for sure.
Yeah, it's funny.
Every when I interview people,I always agree so much.
There's like nothing more tosay yes exactly.
Yeah, but I guess at this point, if you want to talk about how
people can reach you, just tolike a little segment changer.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
Yeah, totally, totally.
Probably the easiest way isjust to check out my website,
honestly makehimyourscom.
You'll find all the info on methere.
I've written my book as well,which is how to Make Him Yours.
So you're welcome to check meout, grab the book, get a bunch
of free content from that.
I would say, in general, thewebsite is the best place to
find me.
Or if you want just more of mycontent in general, you can look
me up on YouTube.
Mark Rosenfeld.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
Okay, and then do you want to talk about your
background at all I know it'svery interesting with many
things you've done or focus onjust the coaching side for this?
Speaker 1 (13:41):
I mean, yeah, I can discuss a little bit of that.
I mean, I started out as a well, going back again, I had a lot
of that social anxiety that Igrew up with, and I started out
as a veterinarian, worked inthat field for a little while
and, long story short, once Iworked on building my confidence
, I started doing dancing andstripping, which was really an
exciting time in my life, and Ijust love dancing, I love kind
(14:04):
of loud music, I love being inthe center of energized
environments, so that reallylights me up.
Still does to this day.
And then I sort of moved intothe coaching world and became a
full-time coach, probably aboutsix years ago now.
So that's kind of a shortversion of my background.
Um, I guess, in terms ofcoaching, the the biggest things
that I focus on is reallystreamlining that online process
(14:27):
like let's.
It sounds robotic, so I'm goingto paraphrase that.
It sounds it, but it's not.
What I do for my clients is webasically set up a profile
usually just one app, maybe two,if I really feel I can handle
it and then we pre-script 90% ofall their chats so that when
they're online we have aspecific filtering process for
(14:49):
the guys that they want, and wedo it in a way that doesn't
sound robotic at all.
We add personalizations forevery chat and we also do it in
a way that it's filtering in thetraits that they want, the
compatibilities.
So, whether it's livinglocation, religion, when you
want kids, when you want to getmarried, what else are some of
the big ones?
Health and fitness is one we doa lot.
(15:10):
Maybe education level earningswe don't do because we can't
really discuss earning figureson an app, but we can do.
Do you enjoy your job?
Stuff like that career.
So we take whatever is theclient's big things that they're
looking for.
Usually we take the top fourand we build that into both
their bio and their first coupleof messages in a way that is
(15:31):
appealing and feminine andengaging.
Then the guy becomes investedbecause he's answering the
questions.
Once he's answering thequestions, he's going to give
her a phone call and then you'reoffline and you're into real
dating.
So we streamline that wholeprocess.
And then the other thing I do alot with clients is I do a lot
of internal family systems work.
So for any of you who arefamiliar with path psychology, I
have this part of me that wantsme to do this and then this
(15:53):
part of me that wants me to dothat.
I'm level two certified in that.
So I do a lot of the deep exilework, inner children work,
protector parts.
I work with a lot of clientsbecause naturally, when,
unfortunately, when you get in arelationship, it tends to spark
your stuff more than whenyou're single.
We can't this whole theory of,hey, I'm gonna be single, I'm
(16:13):
gonna work on all my stuff andthen I'll be perfectly ready for
relationship relationship.
It doesn't work because a lotof your stuff, unfortunately I
wish it did work.
Unfortunately, a lot of yourstuff will be asleep when you're
single.
There is certainly stuff aboutloneliness, about feeling
ostracized, about feelingunlovable.
That stuff will come up whenyou're single for sure.
A different team of stuff willcome up when you're in a
(16:34):
relationship and even whenyou're in a marriage.
So as you go into dating thatwill start to come up.
And so a lot of my work onceclients are in the dating field,
it's let's find the dates,let's ensure the dates are going
well.
The men want first date, seconddates, third dates, et cetera.
So it's kind of the find thedates, make sure they're
attracted and you're showing upat your best self and then
handle the inevitable trauma orbox that will come up as as you
(16:58):
get closer to someone and as itgets scarier for sure.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
Yeah, I've definitely experienced that, where I was
perfectly comfortable beingsingle and I'm the same.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
yeah, I mean, it's not that I don't like company,
but, um, I in general as someonewho leans more avoidant and we
all have our attachment styles.
We might, you might, be secure,but most of us are not
perfectly secure.
You tend to have a leaning,even if you're secure, if pushed
, we tend to lean one way and Iam more leaning, definitely, on
the avoidant side.
So it's easy for me to besingle and my marriage has
(17:32):
tested me in many ways becauseas you get closer, it's like, oh
my God, there's this.
The avoidant fear, that loss ofself, that loss of my
boundaries, that fear around Idon't have me anymore, has been
sparked as our relationship hasgotten closer.
So that's been something that'sbeen really fulfilling,
challenging at times andfulfilling to work on as being
(17:54):
part of a healthy marriage.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
Yeah, and I'm the opposite, so my anxiety, of
course, would go by anxious,yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
You're anxious.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
Yeah, yeah, and that obviously my partner now is more
avoidant, like you.
So, yeah, we definitelystruggled in the beginning where
I'm like I'm not trying tosuffocate you and I'm just need
reassurance sometimes.
Speaker 1 (18:14):
Exactly A good balance.
The challenge for the avoidantperson is to be really deeply
reassuring and loving towardsthe anxious person.
The challenge for the anxiousperson is also to be reassuring
and loving, but it's areassuring and loving of your
independence and your what's.
The word Self-expression is notquite the word I'm looking for.
(18:37):
Um, I value your, the.
The avoider needs to say Ivalue the connection, and the
anxious needs to say I valueessentially your self-expression
or your autonomy.
That's what I'm looking for,your autonomy.
And that's hard for the anxiousto say, just as it's hard for
the avoidant to say so.
It's that dual lean, in effect,and the more anxious and
avoidant the extremes are, theharder that dynamic will be to
(19:01):
overcome yeah, yeah, definitely,yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
Luckily it didn't take us too long to to figure
that out to do that great.
Yeah, like the first time Ilike smothered him with needing
the impressions he was like soput off.
But when he was calmed down welike talked about it and that's
where yeah, it's.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
It's sometimes hard for the anxious person to ask
for what they need withoutfeeling like they are smothering
, and it's hard for the avoidantperson to ask for what they
need without feeling like theyare disappointing the other
person you know, without feelinglike they are abandoning or
disappointing.
I don't want to disappoint orabandon you, I just need a
(19:40):
little bit of me space.
And the next person says Idon't want to control you or
take you over, I just need alittle bit of reassurance.
And because they're opposites,that's that's.
It sounds like you've done agreat job of working through
that challenge and for any ofyou listening who have this
dynamic, that's going to be yourchallenge to work through with
your partner, and I will say ittends to get harder when life is
(20:01):
harder.
So if someone is under stress,if someone is activated to the
point where they're acting liketheir 5 or 10-year-old self
again because of some lifestressor, you're more likely to
revert to old patterns.
So don't be disheartened ifthings are going well and then
suddenly a bunch of life stresscomes up and someone goes
anxious, avoidant again.
It's quite normal for that tohappen.
(20:23):
It just means you're kind ofprogressing to the next level of
difficulty in terms of workingthrough that together.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
So when that does happen, I know there's people
that can be overstimulated orjust emotional flooding or
overwhelmed, that feeling, likeyou said, where you basically go
to the old brain and just can'tspeak can't function Do you
have any tips for when thathappens?
Speaker 1 (20:44):
Breathe, first of all when it's happening and try to
really become aware of whenyou're dysregulated like that,
because you're never going to doany good to anyone in that
state.
And it's hard if both you andyour partner are dysregulated,
because those parts can take youover and you might say
something, or your partner sayssomething and then you get more
dysregulated and you getdefensive and then your partner
(21:06):
gets defensive.
It can spiral so easily and nogood can come really of chatting
when you're dysregulated.
So I would sit down with yourpartner, kind of talk about
these topics and express howyour dysregulation comes out.
Your partner may not know howhis or hers comes out, but you
can at least express how yourscomes out and say, look, I'm
probably going to say somethingin those moments to exit the
(21:30):
exit stage left or maybe go toanother room or do something to
make sure that I don't wound youin those situations, because I
know that, hey, if I'm takenover by my trauma, I could
potentially wound you and ifyour partner's open to receiving
that, they might want to alsodo the same thing with you.
If it's only your end, yeah,you might say look, there are
times that I've realized and Ican feel my heart starts to race
(21:52):
and I start to breathe morequickly, and it's usually when I
feel real or imagined, thatthere's some level of
abandonment there from you.
That comes from my past and I'maware of it.
That said, I'll probably askfor your help with that as we go
along and share how thatabandonment affects me.
If it takes me over in themoment, one thing I might say is
(22:13):
hey, I'm being overtaken by myfears now and I'm really
starting to dysregulate.
I need to pause and I love youand then leave the room and,
however long it takes Now, yourpartner might be okay with a
30-minute pause or a 12-hourpause, depending on the person.
Some people like to repairsooner or later.
If you guys can have a systemwhere you can prevent things
(22:39):
escalating and you don't justneed to run away and someone
knows you both know each otheris loved.
You know, sometimes if Sam andI had this, it's like she might
say I love you, I need to leavethe house and walk this off, and
so I know that when she leavesshe'll be back within an hour.
Okay, so I kind of go.
Okay, she's saying that's good,that's an agreement we had, so
those things can just kind ofhelp and that way I don't get
(23:00):
too anxious because I don't knowwhen this is going to be
repaired and she's able to takethat time, or vice versa.
Sometimes it's me that needs togo hang on a minute.
I just I need to breathe nowbecause my inner child is coming
up with wounding here and I'mgoing to be no good talking to
you in this state.
So sometimes I love you, baby.
I'm going to go work on thisand I'll go whatever sit
downstairs or something.
So just discussing it duringpeacetime allows the wounding to
(23:28):
be less, if any duringescalation time.
Does that?
make sense Tamara.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
Yeah, when you know what to expect, you're seeing it
, so you're like, okay, likethey said they would do this
potentially, so let me calm down.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
Resentments.
What's the saying?
Resentments are unspokenexpectations.
So if you have theseexpectations, I'm going to walk
away for 12 hours and be fine,and your partner thinks you're
coming back after 30 minutes,that's going to lead to
resentment, because thatexpectation, when it hasn't been
discussed, is going to createresentment.
There are some expectationsyou're just never going to think
(24:04):
of in advance.
But try to cover as many as youcan, because the more of these
conversations that you have, themore you set in guidelines that
keep both people safe.
And it's hard to talk aboutthis stuff because a lot of
people do have differentexpectations and you're having a
good day you don't really feellike talking about today.
I know we're going to havedifferent expectations.
(24:24):
This could lead to a fight, youknow.
If you're struggling to talkabout in front of a therapist or
a coach or a third party, uh,but have the conversations
because as hard as they are,it's better than resent yeah,
yeah, I've used the line likefor expectation management.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
Can I ask you will will this or that happen?
I like that yeah yeah, and thenthat seems that works for him
too, because sometimes I'm likeyou know, and he'll be more
inclined to answer if I say itthat way.
Like it'll help me, you know,adjust to what we're going to do
.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
For expectation.
Can you give an example of theend of the sentence for
expectation management?
Speaker 2 (25:02):
Yeah, I'm like for my own expectation management.
Are you planning on like goingto the gym after, or you'll be
home, or like which of the two?
Speaker 1 (25:09):
Oh, that's good.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
Where are you leaning , so I can, at least you know,
be aware of which one's probablygoing to happen.
I like that.
Speaker 1 (25:16):
I like that a lot yeah.
And it's also putting it outthere because it's vulnerable
too, because your expectationsmight you might.
The answer might disappoint you.
And understanding or holding aspace of love across when our
partner disappoints us is one ofthe big challenges in forming a
(25:36):
really long-term, healthyrelationship.
Because if I can't disappointmy partner and still feel loved,
then I'm never going to want todisappoint my partner.
So I'm going to hold backanything that disappoints her.
That's going to break intimacyand eventually something really
bad is going to happen.
So that ability to say, hey,what's your truth here?
I still love you even if itdisappoints me, and vice versa,
um yeah, that's huge yeah, thankyou.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
Yeah, yeah, definitely needed to like it
worked.
Yeah, yeah, now I employ itoften take care, love that yeah.
So um, are there any things youwant to say?
To kind of wrap up and justmake sure, like your main points
are covered.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
I would just say you know, in the midst of dating I
work with a lot of businesswomen, a lot of type A personalities.
Keep in mind, vulnerability isusually the way to lead the
conversation.
So if I have a client who says,mark, he's not planning dates
I'm a planner and this guy's notplanning dates, how do I tell
(26:36):
him that I need more planning?
Or how do I yeah, it could beanything how do I tell him that
I would like him to show up more?
How do I tell him that?
Or how do I ask him even to dothis, this or that?
It's usually always aboutleading with vulnerability,
which often includes thebackstory of why you need that.
So in the date planning example,it's not really about the
planning.
(26:56):
It's the lack of safety youfeel when things are unplanned,
which is very likely from achildhood where you learned to
plan because there was nostability or boundaries in the
family unit and it was sounstructured that you learned
when you were very young thatstructuring things was the best
way to keep yourself safe.
And if you really share thatfrom a vulnerable place, the
(27:17):
guy's not going to be like, ohgosh, she's asking me to plan
everything.
She's telling me what to do.
He's going to understand howvulnerable you were and how
vulnerable you still are, andthe planning is not really about
the planning.
It's about you feel unsafe, andthat's it's okay to feel unsafe
.
What's not okay, what's going tobreak intimacy is going to is
(27:38):
going to be to pretend that youdon't.
So I'm as tough like exteriorwho just really likes planning.
Well, that comes from a raw andvulnerable place, and it's the
same for men, from men.
In return, you know, reallyshow up with a level of
vulnerability and express whythings matter to you, from not
just your present perspective,but from your past and from what
(27:59):
you're made to feel.
And that's what's vulnerabilitybridges connection.
So if you can do that with theright people, because you have
the right dating strategy, fromonline or offline, that's going
to lead to quality connectionwith a compatible person.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
Okay.
So when it goes to the male orthe guy planning the dates, is
there some kind of wound that hecould have had?
Like he disappointed someonewhen he plans, he'll never plan
again.
Is that something you canaddress?
Speaker 1 (28:23):
Oh, totally.
I mean, you don't want to becoaching a guy to plan dates
from first date onwards.
You do want to be inviting, youdo want to be able to allow him
to know that you want him to dothat without doing it for him.
The vulnerability from it'slike the bar situation, classic
bar situation woman makes eyeswith the guy she feels attracted
(28:45):
to.
Guy walks over to talk to her.
Who was vulnerable there?
From an observer's point ofview you would probably say the
man is the vulnerable onebecause he's the one who's
risking rejection.
But the woman to make eyecontact and to be inviting is
also risking rejection first.
So there's a sharedvulnerability there.
The woman does the inviting andlike if you've ever invited
someone to a party or a weddingand they don't want to come, it
(29:06):
kind of sucks right.
It's vulnerable to say hey, Iwant your presence here, and
then the person says no, thankyou.
So the woman's vulnerability isaround the invitation.
The man's vulnerability isaround the action.
Don't do the action with me bygeneral advice.
It's not that women can't playat a date.
Of course you can if you reallywant to.
In general, if you want the manto do most of the chasing, then
(29:26):
understand you'll do most of theinviting.
You are the shine, you are thediamond.
You are the shine, you are thediamond, you are the energy
that's being drawn in.
That doesn't mean you'll drawevery man in.
It doesn't mean some men won'tgo.
I don't want that diamondbecause that will happen.
It doesn't mean you did thewrong thing.
It just means that that diamondwasn't a match for that person.
But you do the inviting.
(29:46):
You show the man that he'slikely to be successful if he
attempts.
And then you will see if he isable to get over his trauma and
attempt.
And if he does have a littletrauma there, he gets over it.
He invites you.
You say yes, you show you'reexcited.
You win because he chased.
He wins because he got over hisfear.
Everybody wins.
Some men have too much, they'retoo scared and no matter how
many invitations you give themor how much excitement you show
(30:06):
at the prospect of them askingyou out, they still won't have
the courage to do it.
They'll want you to doeverything and those men are
under functioning men and youprobably just don't deal with
them.
So it's sort of that.
It's it's that dance and bothpeople are vulnerable in the
dance.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
Yeah, okay, awesome, all right.
Well, since I interrupted yourpotential final thoughts, if
there's any one last thought, orwe can.
Speaker 1 (30:29):
You know what I just?
I just say get out there, becurious and and find a way to
enjoy the process, because if weactually get off the internet,
most of the people we get outthere and meet, even if they
come from the internet, areactually pretty good people and
they're interesting, even ifthey don't become a match for
you.
So just find out how to becurious about other humans and
um and the rest will take careof itself.
Speaker 2 (30:50):
Awesome.
All right, thank you very muchfor being on.
Great information and also helpa lot of people.
If you love this episode, besure to tell your friends about
it and follow the show as well,and check out Mark's information
and website.
All right, thanks again.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
Thanks, Amy Tomorrow.
Speaker 2 (31:05):
And thank you everyone.
Speaker 1 (31:06):
It was a pleasure, Thanks guys.
Speaker 2 (31:08):
Thank you, alrighty, frank Talk.
Welcome to the Straight from the Source's Mouth
.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
Podcast Frank talk about sex and dating.
Hello, Tamara here, Welcome tothe show.
Today's guest is Mark Rosenfeld, Australia's number one dating
and relationship coach for women, and we'll be talking about his
program Make Him Yours andother dating topics.
Thanks for joining me, Mark.
It's a pleasure.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Thank you for having me, Tamara joining me.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Mark, it's a pleasure .
Thank you for having metomorrow.
Yes, I think this will be agreat topic.
Obviously, there's a lot ofstruggles out there for dating,
so I'm sure women would like tohear some answers about how to
do it better.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
There is.
It's a tough landscape outthere and, you know, covid, I
think, really set us back in alot of ways, and we're still
recovering and kind of rallyingback from it, and that there's
just it's.
It's strange, isn't it?
We're so connected, now morethan ever, and yet we all, many
of us, feel so disconnected,especially when it comes to
dating, and it's a real paradoxthat modern daters are
(00:57):
struggling with yeah, because iteveryone's on the apps, or at
least it seems like people arefinally starting to actually
look up in real life and try tomeet people that way.
Yes.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
I'm sure maybe we can start with tips on how women
could make it known that they'reinterested or talk about your
program.
Whichever direction you want tostart with or how you even got
into this.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
Yeah, I mean I got into this from my own.
I was talking about this with aclient this morning.
This, yeah, I mean I got intothis from my own.
I was talking about this with aclient this morning.
Actually, I got into this frommy own place of social anxiety,
which is I just didn't know howto meet women talk about really
girls at the time.
It's kind of that age bracketDidn't know how to meet, didn't
know how to talk.
So much social anxiety, almostno experience.
And it's interesting because aclient asked me this morning.
(01:42):
She said you know, I reallywant to be more social and have
the opportunity to meet more men.
The problem is a lot of peoplein my sort of culture city
aren't used to talking tostrangers and so I kind of get
these weird looks when I do andthen it exacerbates my shame and
I kind of have the same thingthat I'm fearing gets brought up
by literal strangers.
And I said to her look, I canrelate to that when I first
(02:04):
started going out.
You know, you don't have a lotof confidence, you're sort of
extremely shy and awkward.
And then you walk up, you know,to a woman you find attractive
and you go hi, nice to meet you.
I'm Mark.
You know you get the same lookright, which is it's hard to
meet people out there, and a bigpart of this is kind of
(02:25):
discovering all right.
Well, why am I doing thisbeyond just meeting someone?
Where is the growth here?
And for me there was a coupleof things.
There was building my sociallife became one of the big
beacons.
Okay, no matter what happenswith this person, I meet with
this stranger.
I took an action to build mysocial life, so that's still a
win.
And the second is buildingresistance and internal
validation against the storiesthat the process was building up
(02:48):
.
So, oh, I talked to a strangerI'm attracted to and I get a
terrible look or a back turn orsomething that feels really bad.
That brings up my shame and myfears.
Am I a creeper?
Am I bad?
Am I that unattractive?
Whatever the shame is, and thenyou're sort of standing on your
own in that moment.
And who's going to validate you?
(03:10):
The stranger?
Sure as hell isn't.
So you really only haveyourself to validate you in that
moment.
And if you do that enough timesand if you consciously say,
look, it's not about thestranger's validation, it's
actually about me taking actionfor something I believe in, you
start to become more comfortablein the process, so naturally
you relax more and ironically,that's when strangers start
(03:30):
responding to you better, ifyou're out there meeting
strangers in person.
So it's a tough process and Iencourage a lot of clients look.
If you don't want to do it onhard mode to begin with, if you
don't want to walk up to peoplein the supermarket or try to get
people to approach you acrossthe coffee store, whatever it is
, Start in environments whereit's natural to meet people.
Do hobbies, do classes, go toshows, go to dance events, find
(03:52):
stuff that you are learning,meet up groups where it's
expected to meet people.
A lot of these things,especially if you don't have a
social circle, are a great wayto start those social muscles,
get them practiced, get themlubricated again.
Especially for us introvertspost-COVID, that's a hard wheel
to get turning and you have toreally decide.
All right, my social life is apriority, I'm going to work on
(04:13):
it, I'm going to meet people and, no matter what the result is,
I'm proud to work on that area.
That's really going to help youin the offline world, in the
online world.
I don't want to spend too muchtime on this unless your
audience wants to hear it.
I get my clients to be reallyspecific while still being
attractive.
Often it's hard tomorrow forthose two things to come
(04:33):
together.
We can either be extremelyattractive and I'll show my
clients how to glow withfeminine energy and just how to
really show up on an app and howto be the most interesting,
energizing, feminine woman onthe app.
Then every single guy wants tomeet them and they're
overwhelmed by 48,000 matchesvery, very quickly.
Or you go the other route,which is here's what I'm looking
(04:53):
for.
I want someone who was, you know, a strict Christian, born on
the 17th of July, star signCapricorn, who knows how to cook
, who can show sadness.
And you have all these traitsand everyone looks at you and
goes, oh, that's a little bit ofgendery, that's a little bit
much, and no one clicks on you.
So how do you do both at thesame time?
I guess what I've sort ofmastered for myself and my
(05:16):
clients is how to do those twothings at the same time.
How do you be radiant andattractive, feminine, engaging?
How do you be the mostinteresting person that he is
chatting to on that app whilealso being incredibly choosy and
having an excellent filteringprocess and doing all that in
less than 20 minutes a day.
That's kind of the system thatI use for online because, again,
(05:38):
it's hard to do those twothings at the same time.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
Yeah, and that's exactly what you do need, like
you said, the combo of the two,and not to spend so much time,
because people get burned outwithin minutes or days.
They're like I'm over it andthey give up all the time.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
Yeah, and unfortunately, like many things,
slow and steady wins the race Alittle bit each day.
What is it?
The Apple app of the day keepsthe doctor away.
It's kind of that saying we gotas kids.
It's a little bit of exerciseeach day, you know it keeps the
doctor away.
And a little bit of meetingpeople each day, whether it's
online or offline, keeps yoursocial life flowing and probably
keeps your dating life flowingvery well as well.
(06:13):
But if you go in with all gunsblazing, go for a big burst.
Yeah, I often see people burnout very quickly and then it's
not fun.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
And as soon as it stops becoming fun, someone's
going to quit that within weeksor months.
It's not going to last.
And the idea of a high valuewoman what would you say, makes
someone high?
Speaker 1 (06:36):
value, or is that even like a bad term?
Yeah, it's a good question,isn't it?
Because I think the term isoften referred to as status, and
status and relationship are notoften the same thing, or at
least relationship ability,relationship skills, because
high value we often perceive,you know, online it's it's
really the.
There's a very small percentageof people who are they, their
(06:58):
job is successful, they lookattractive, um, they seem to
speak well and you can see thestats.
Most women reject most menonline and, unfortunately, pick
a very small portion of menbecause they're trying to filter
the best men and, with solittle information to go on, the
best profiles get a lot ofattention, but not necessarily
(07:18):
the best men.
So we're going to call thosethe high value men because they
look like models, or maybebecause they have a good job, or
maybe because they could justtake a solid photo and chat
while like it's.
It's a really confusing termand I do think it gets it's hard
for us as human beings not toconsider status, because status
is, it's built into our DNA.
Women are always going to havea level of hmm well, do I feel
(07:42):
safe with him as in in terms ofhis resources, his physical
stature, his looks, how muchmoney he makes I mean, those
things are always going tomatter to a degree.
Is that what makes someone highvalue, though?
Because those things which wefind most attractive are not
necessarily the things that aregoing to make a relationship the
most successful.
What makes a relationshipsuccessful is vulnerability.
(08:02):
What makes a relationshipsuccessful is being able to be
self-aware and seek help for ourtrauma patterns.
What makes a relationshipsuccessful is being able to go
through tough times and exhibitchallenging relationship skills
when trauma comes up.
So are those things high value?
Are they sexy?
I don't know, but they'reeffective.
So, yeah, I think everyone haskind of a different meaning of
(08:26):
that term.
It's not really a term that Iuse.
If someone says, hey, I wantsomeone who's attractive to me
and has compatibility, chemistryand relationship skills, you
know I can get behind that.
That's a high value person.
But it also means that highvalue, then, is something we
need to find out, because you'renever going to know someone's
relationship skills in the firstcouple of dates.
So, yeah, it's not a term thatI use for that reasons.
(08:49):
I think it's just a bit tootied up with status, and status
doesn't necessarily reflectrelationship skills.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
Yeah.
Yeah, I definitely agree Withsome of your clients.
When you work with them, arethey surprised by who they end
up being with or who they'reattracted to.
When you get them to see thevalue versus status stuff.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
I don't know if they're surprised as much as it
sort of happens.
And then I do hear the commentyou know, he maybe didn't have
the great profile, but I gavehim a chance.
Or if I meet the guy in personthey say look, if I met him
online I probably would haveswiped to no.
So I guess from thatperspective there's some
surprise there.
You know, I generally work withwomen most of the time.
(09:30):
Now I still work with a few menhere and there.
Women trust they're intuitive,they're emotional, and this
isn't to generalize, of course,but women really do.
You know they're emotionalbeings, they listen to their
emotions, they listen to theirintuition for guidance, and
that's really important, that'sa really big skill.
So sometimes that persondoesn't come out necessarily how
(09:54):
you perfectly imagined.
It looks wise, emotionally, youfeel so safe with him that that
you connect to him and I I dosee that again and again.
So I guess in that sense isthat the exact physical
description.
Or did I?
Did I ever imagine myselfdating a car mechanic?
Maybe not, but you meet thatcar mechanic.
(10:15):
He makes you feel safe, hetreats you well, he's respectful
, he actually has somerelationship skills which maybe,
stereotypically, isn'tsomething you necessarily quote
unquote.
Imagine a car mechanic wouldhave this one does, and you fall
in love.
And is that surprising?
I?
I guess it is in a way, butit's um, it's part of the
process of being curious about ahuman being, and who knows
(10:36):
where we end up after that yeah,yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
And what?
What do you typical clientscome to you for, like, what have
they struggled with?
Speaker 1 (10:44):
or what's the biggest , I mean the biggest presenting
complaint is always I'm notmeeting the people I want to
meet.
I'm not meeting the caliber orquality of men I want to meet,
and so sometimes there's athere's obviously well, always
there's a strategic component tothat.
How are you meeting?
Well, always there's astrategic component to that.
How are you meeting people?
And then there's a selfcomponent to that how
resourceful are you being?
And sometimes there's a traumacomponent as well.
How are you pushing people awaythat could actually be good for
(11:06):
you?
For example, if you're justdedicated to chasing that banker
who makes 500K and looks greaton paper, there's actually a
subtle form of emotionalunavailability in that on your
side, because it's oh, I'mchasing someone who would never
actually commit to me.
Now I'm not saying there'sbankers that don't commit, but
(11:27):
if we get so specific, soincredibly specific, with our
niche, it's actually a reallysneaky way to avoid almost
everyone.
Because there are so few peoplein that category, the odds of
you meeting someone is prettyslim.
So, ironically, you get to staysafe and single if you just
focus on an extremely tightniche.
Now I can go the other way aswell.
(11:47):
I've also had clients wheretheir niche is too open and
they're too open-minded and Ihad one client, for example,
where she said you know, I justjust I really understand people.
I really get that peoplestruggle and I get that.
I get people in a way mostother women don't or most other
people don't, and she's anempath, she's a former nurse, so
it's kind of fits that mold,but she was allowing in guys who
(12:10):
, it's like they had majortrauma histories that were
unhealed and there's nothingwrong with the trauma history we
all have it.
But if it's unhealed and ifit's getting vomited on you,
then yeah, you do need to judgethat, not as a person, you need
to judge them as a bad match foryou.
Again, I think sometimesthere's women who struggle to
differentiate judgment anddiscernment.
It's like, if we want to putsemantics on it, judgment is I'm
(12:35):
assessing the person'scharacter as negative.
Discernment is I'm assessingthem as a negative match for me
because of the way they'reshowing up and they feel that
when I'm being discerning, I'mbeing judgmental and I don't
want to be judgmental.
Therefore, people get too manychances.
So I've seen both sides of thatspectrum.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
Yeah, yeah, I can see that for sure.
Yeah, it's funny.
Every when I interview people,I always agree so much.
There's like nothing more tosay yes exactly.
Yeah, but I guess at this point, if you want to talk about how
people can reach you, just tolike a little segment changer.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
Yeah, totally, totally.
Probably the easiest way isjust to check out my website,
honestly makehimyourscom.
You'll find all the info on methere.
I've written my book as well,which is how to Make Him Yours.
So you're welcome to check meout, grab the book, get a bunch
of free content from that.
I would say, in general, thewebsite is the best place to
find me.
Or if you want just more of mycontent in general, you can look
me up on YouTube.
Mark Rosenfeld.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
Okay, and then do you want to talk about your
background at all I know it'svery interesting with many
things you've done or focus onjust the coaching side for this?
Speaker 1 (13:41):
I mean, yeah, I can discuss a little bit of that.
I mean, I started out as a well, going back again, I had a lot
of that social anxiety that Igrew up with, and I started out
as a veterinarian, worked inthat field for a little while
and, long story short, once Iworked on building my confidence
, I started doing dancing andstripping, which was really an
exciting time in my life, and Ijust love dancing, I love kind
(14:04):
of loud music, I love being inthe center of energized
environments, so that reallylights me up.
Still does to this day.
And then I sort of moved intothe coaching world and became a
full-time coach, probably aboutsix years ago now.
So that's kind of a shortversion of my background.
Um, I guess, in terms ofcoaching, the the biggest things
that I focus on is reallystreamlining that online process
(14:27):
like let's.
It sounds robotic, so I'm goingto paraphrase that.
It sounds it, but it's not.
What I do for my clients is webasically set up a profile
usually just one app, maybe two,if I really feel I can handle
it and then we pre-script 90% ofall their chats so that when
they're online we have aspecific filtering process for
(14:49):
the guys that they want, and wedo it in a way that doesn't
sound robotic at all.
We add personalizations forevery chat and we also do it in
a way that it's filtering in thetraits that they want, the
compatibilities.
So, whether it's livinglocation, religion, when you
want kids, when you want to getmarried, what else are some of
the big ones?
Health and fitness is one we doa lot.
(15:10):
Maybe education level earningswe don't do because we can't
really discuss earning figureson an app, but we can do.
Do you enjoy your job?
Stuff like that career.
So we take whatever is theclient's big things that they're
looking for.
Usually we take the top fourand we build that into both
their bio and their first coupleof messages in a way that is
(15:31):
appealing and feminine andengaging.
Then the guy becomes investedbecause he's answering the
questions.
Once he's answering thequestions, he's going to give
her a phone call and then you'reoffline and you're into real
dating.
So we streamline that wholeprocess.
And then the other thing I do alot with clients is I do a lot
of internal family systems work.
So for any of you who arefamiliar with path psychology, I
have this part of me that wantsme to do this and then this
(15:53):
part of me that wants me to dothat.
I'm level two certified in that.
So I do a lot of the deep exilework, inner children work,
protector parts.
I work with a lot of clientsbecause naturally, when,
unfortunately, when you get in arelationship, it tends to spark
your stuff more than whenyou're single.
We can't this whole theory of,hey, I'm gonna be single, I'm
(16:13):
gonna work on all my stuff andthen I'll be perfectly ready for
relationship relationship.
It doesn't work because a lotof your stuff, unfortunately I
wish it did work.
Unfortunately, a lot of yourstuff will be asleep when you're
single.
There is certainly stuff aboutloneliness, about feeling
ostracized, about feelingunlovable.
That stuff will come up whenyou're single for sure.
A different team of stuff willcome up when you're in a
(16:34):
relationship and even whenyou're in a marriage.
So as you go into dating thatwill start to come up.
And so a lot of my work onceclients are in the dating field,
it's let's find the dates,let's ensure the dates are going
well.
The men want first date, seconddates, third dates, et cetera.
So it's kind of the find thedates, make sure they're
attracted and you're showing upat your best self and then
handle the inevitable trauma orbox that will come up as as you
(16:58):
get closer to someone and as itgets scarier for sure.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
Yeah, I've definitely experienced that, where I was
perfectly comfortable beingsingle and I'm the same.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
yeah, I mean, it's not that I don't like company,
but, um, I in general as someonewho leans more avoidant and we
all have our attachment styles.
We might, you might, be secure,but most of us are not
perfectly secure.
You tend to have a leaning,even if you're secure, if pushed
, we tend to lean one way and Iam more leaning, definitely, on
the avoidant side.
So it's easy for me to besingle and my marriage has
(17:32):
tested me in many ways becauseas you get closer, it's like, oh
my God, there's this.
The avoidant fear, that loss ofself, that loss of my
boundaries, that fear around Idon't have me anymore, has been
sparked as our relationship hasgotten closer.
So that's been something that'sbeen really fulfilling,
challenging at times andfulfilling to work on as being
(17:54):
part of a healthy marriage.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
Yeah, and I'm the opposite, so my anxiety, of
course, would go by anxious,yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
You're anxious.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
Yeah, yeah, and that obviously my partner now is more
avoidant, like you.
So, yeah, we definitelystruggled in the beginning where
I'm like I'm not trying tosuffocate you and I'm just need
reassurance sometimes.
Speaker 1 (18:14):
Exactly A good balance.
The challenge for the avoidantperson is to be really deeply
reassuring and loving towardsthe anxious person.
The challenge for the anxiousperson is also to be reassuring
and loving, but it's areassuring and loving of your
independence and your what's.
The word Self-expression is notquite the word I'm looking for.
(18:37):
Um, I value your, the.
The avoider needs to say Ivalue the connection, and the
anxious needs to say I valueessentially your self-expression
or your autonomy.
That's what I'm looking for,your autonomy.
And that's hard for the anxiousto say, just as it's hard for
the avoidant to say so.
It's that dual lean, in effect,and the more anxious and
avoidant the extremes are, theharder that dynamic will be to
(19:01):
overcome yeah, yeah, definitely,yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
Luckily it didn't take us too long to to figure
that out to do that great.
Yeah, like the first time Ilike smothered him with needing
the impressions he was like soput off.
But when he was calmed down welike talked about it and that's
where yeah, it's.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
It's sometimes hard for the anxious person to ask
for what they need withoutfeeling like they are smothering
, and it's hard for the avoidantperson to ask for what they
need without feeling like theyare disappointing the other
person you know, without feelinglike they are abandoning or
disappointing.
I don't want to disappoint orabandon you, I just need a
(19:40):
little bit of me space.
And the next person says Idon't want to control you or
take you over, I just need alittle bit of reassurance.
And because they're opposites,that's that's.
It sounds like you've done agreat job of working through
that challenge and for any ofyou listening who have this
dynamic, that's going to be yourchallenge to work through with
your partner, and I will say ittends to get harder when life is
(20:01):
harder.
So if someone is under stress,if someone is activated to the
point where they're acting liketheir 5 or 10-year-old self
again because of some lifestressor, you're more likely to
revert to old patterns.
So don't be disheartened ifthings are going well and then
suddenly a bunch of life stresscomes up and someone goes
anxious, avoidant again.
It's quite normal for that tohappen.
(20:23):
It just means you're kind ofprogressing to the next level of
difficulty in terms of workingthrough that together.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
So when that does happen, I know there's people
that can be overstimulated orjust emotional flooding or
overwhelmed, that feeling, likeyou said, where you basically go
to the old brain and just can'tspeak can't function Do you
have any tips for when thathappens?
Speaker 1 (20:44):
Breathe, first of all when it's happening and try to
really become aware of whenyou're dysregulated like that,
because you're never going to doany good to anyone in that
state.
And it's hard if both you andyour partner are dysregulated,
because those parts can take youover and you might say
something, or your partner sayssomething and then you get more
dysregulated and you getdefensive and then your partner
(21:06):
gets defensive.
It can spiral so easily and nogood can come really of chatting
when you're dysregulated.
So I would sit down with yourpartner, kind of talk about
these topics and express howyour dysregulation comes out.
Your partner may not know howhis or hers comes out, but you
can at least express how yourscomes out and say, look, I'm
probably going to say somethingin those moments to exit the
(21:30):
exit stage left or maybe go toanother room or do something to
make sure that I don't wound youin those situations, because I
know that, hey, if I'm takenover by my trauma, I could
potentially wound you and ifyour partner's open to receiving
that, they might want to alsodo the same thing with you.
If it's only your end, yeah,you might say look, there are
times that I've realized and Ican feel my heart starts to race
(21:52):
and I start to breathe morequickly, and it's usually when I
feel real or imagined, thatthere's some level of
abandonment there from you.
That comes from my past and I'maware of it.
That said, I'll probably askfor your help with that as we go
along and share how thatabandonment affects me.
If it takes me over in themoment, one thing I might say is
(22:13):
hey, I'm being overtaken by myfears now and I'm really
starting to dysregulate.
I need to pause and I love youand then leave the room and,
however long it takes Now, yourpartner might be okay with a
30-minute pause or a 12-hourpause, depending on the person.
Some people like to repairsooner or later.
If you guys can have a systemwhere you can prevent things
(22:39):
escalating and you don't justneed to run away and someone
knows you both know each otheris loved.
You know, sometimes if Sam andI had this, it's like she might
say I love you, I need to leavethe house and walk this off, and
so I know that when she leavesshe'll be back within an hour.
Okay, so I kind of go.
Okay, she's saying that's good,that's an agreement we had, so
those things can just kind ofhelp and that way I don't get
(23:00):
too anxious because I don't knowwhen this is going to be
repaired and she's able to takethat time, or vice versa.
Sometimes it's me that needs togo hang on a minute.
I just I need to breathe nowbecause my inner child is coming
up with wounding here and I'mgoing to be no good talking to
you in this state.
So sometimes I love you, baby.
I'm going to go work on thisand I'll go whatever sit
downstairs or something.
So just discussing it duringpeacetime allows the wounding to
(23:28):
be less, if any duringescalation time.
Does that?
make sense Tamara.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
Yeah, when you know what to expect, you're seeing it
, so you're like, okay, likethey said they would do this
potentially, so let me calm down.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
Resentments.
What's the saying?
Resentments are unspokenexpectations.
So if you have theseexpectations, I'm going to walk
away for 12 hours and be fine,and your partner thinks you're
coming back after 30 minutes,that's going to lead to
resentment, because thatexpectation, when it hasn't been
discussed, is going to createresentment.
There are some expectationsyou're just never going to think
(24:04):
of in advance.
But try to cover as many as youcan, because the more of these
conversations that you have, themore you set in guidelines that
keep both people safe.
And it's hard to talk aboutthis stuff because a lot of
people do have differentexpectations and you're having a
good day you don't really feellike talking about today.
I know we're going to havedifferent expectations.
(24:24):
This could lead to a fight, youknow.
If you're struggling to talkabout in front of a therapist or
a coach or a third party, uh,but have the conversations
because as hard as they are,it's better than resent yeah,
yeah, I've used the line likefor expectation management.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
Can I ask you will will this or that happen?
I like that yeah yeah, and thenthat seems that works for him
too, because sometimes I'm likeyou know, and he'll be more
inclined to answer if I say itthat way.
Like it'll help me, you know,adjust to what we're going to do
.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
For expectation.
Can you give an example of theend of the sentence for
expectation management?
Speaker 2 (25:02):
Yeah, I'm like for my own expectation management.
Are you planning on like goingto the gym after, or you'll be
home, or like which of the two?
Speaker 1 (25:09):
Oh, that's good.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
Where are you leaning , so I can, at least you know,
be aware of which one's probablygoing to happen.
I like that.
Speaker 1 (25:16):
I like that a lot yeah.
And it's also putting it outthere because it's vulnerable
too, because your expectationsmight you might.
The answer might disappoint you.
And understanding or holding aspace of love across when our
partner disappoints us is one ofthe big challenges in forming a
(25:36):
really long-term, healthyrelationship.
Because if I can't disappointmy partner and still feel loved,
then I'm never going to want todisappoint my partner.
So I'm going to hold backanything that disappoints her.
That's going to break intimacyand eventually something really
bad is going to happen.
So that ability to say, hey,what's your truth here?
I still love you even if itdisappoints me, and vice versa,
um yeah, that's huge yeah, thankyou.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
Yeah, yeah, definitely needed to like it
worked.
Yeah, yeah, now I employ itoften take care, love that yeah.
So um, are there any things youwant to say?
To kind of wrap up and justmake sure, like your main points
are covered.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
I would just say you know, in the midst of dating I
work with a lot of businesswomen, a lot of type A personalities.
Keep in mind, vulnerability isusually the way to lead the
conversation.
So if I have a client who says,mark, he's not planning dates
I'm a planner and this guy's notplanning dates, how do I tell
(26:36):
him that I need more planning?
Or how do I yeah, it could beanything how do I tell him that
I would like him to show up more?
How do I tell him that?
Or how do I ask him even to dothis, this or that?
It's usually always aboutleading with vulnerability,
which often includes thebackstory of why you need that.
So in the date planning example,it's not really about the
planning.
(26:56):
It's the lack of safety youfeel when things are unplanned,
which is very likely from achildhood where you learned to
plan because there was nostability or boundaries in the
family unit and it was sounstructured that you learned
when you were very young thatstructuring things was the best
way to keep yourself safe.
And if you really share thatfrom a vulnerable place, the
(27:17):
guy's not going to be like, ohgosh, she's asking me to plan
everything.
She's telling me what to do.
He's going to understand howvulnerable you were and how
vulnerable you still are, andthe planning is not really about
the planning.
It's about you feel unsafe, andthat's it's okay to feel unsafe
.
What's not okay, what's going tobreak intimacy is going to is
(27:38):
going to be to pretend that youdon't.
So I'm as tough like exteriorwho just really likes planning.
Well, that comes from a raw andvulnerable place, and it's the
same for men, from men.
In return, you know, reallyshow up with a level of
vulnerability and express whythings matter to you, from not
just your present perspective,but from your past and from what
(27:59):
you're made to feel.
And that's what's vulnerabilitybridges connection.
So if you can do that with theright people, because you have
the right dating strategy, fromonline or offline, that's going
to lead to quality connectionwith a compatible person.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
Okay.
So when it goes to the male orthe guy planning the dates, is
there some kind of wound that hecould have had?
Like he disappointed someonewhen he plans, he'll never plan
again.
Is that something you canaddress?
Speaker 1 (28:23):
Oh, totally.
I mean, you don't want to becoaching a guy to plan dates
from first date onwards.
You do want to be inviting, youdo want to be able to allow him
to know that you want him to dothat without doing it for him.
The vulnerability from it'slike the bar situation, classic
bar situation woman makes eyeswith the guy she feels attracted
(28:45):
to.
Guy walks over to talk to her.
Who was vulnerable there?
From an observer's point ofview you would probably say the
man is the vulnerable onebecause he's the one who's
risking rejection.
But the woman to make eyecontact and to be inviting is
also risking rejection first.
So there's a sharedvulnerability there.
The woman does the inviting andlike if you've ever invited
someone to a party or a weddingand they don't want to come, it
(29:06):
kind of sucks right.
It's vulnerable to say hey, Iwant your presence here, and
then the person says no, thankyou.
So the woman's vulnerability isaround the invitation.
The man's vulnerability isaround the action.
Don't do the action with me bygeneral advice.
It's not that women can't playat a date.
Of course you can if you reallywant to.
In general, if you want the manto do most of the chasing, then
(29:26):
understand you'll do most of theinviting.
You are the shine, you are thediamond.
You are the shine, you are thediamond, you are the energy
that's being drawn in.
That doesn't mean you'll drawevery man in.
It doesn't mean some men won'tgo.
I don't want that diamondbecause that will happen.
It doesn't mean you did thewrong thing.
It just means that that diamondwasn't a match for that person.
But you do the inviting.
(29:46):
You show the man that he'slikely to be successful if he
attempts.
And then you will see if he isable to get over his trauma and
attempt.
And if he does have a littletrauma there, he gets over it.
He invites you.
You say yes, you show you'reexcited.
You win because he chased.
He wins because he got over hisfear.
Everybody wins.
Some men have too much, they'retoo scared and no matter how
many invitations you give themor how much excitement you show
(30:06):
at the prospect of them askingyou out, they still won't have
the courage to do it.
They'll want you to doeverything and those men are
under functioning men and youprobably just don't deal with
them.
So it's sort of that.
It's it's that dance and bothpeople are vulnerable in the
dance.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
Yeah, okay, awesome, all right.
Well, since I interrupted yourpotential final thoughts, if
there's any one last thought, orwe can.
Speaker 1 (30:29):
You know what I just?
I just say get out there, becurious and and find a way to
enjoy the process, because if weactually get off the internet,
most of the people we get outthere and meet, even if they
come from the internet, areactually pretty good people and
they're interesting, even ifthey don't become a match for
you.
So just find out how to becurious about other humans and
um and the rest will take careof itself.
Speaker 2 (30:50):
Awesome.
All right, thank you very muchfor being on.
Great information and also helpa lot of people.
If you love this episode, besure to tell your friends about
it and follow the show as well,and check out Mark's information
and website.
All right, thanks again.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
Thanks, Amy Tomorrow.
Speaker 2 (31:05):
And thank you everyone.
Speaker 1 (31:06):
It was a pleasure, Thanks guys.
Speaker 2 (31:08):
Thank you, alrighty, frank Talk.
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