July 8, 2025 • 28 mins
Ever noticed how the person you love most can trigger your worst reactions? That's no accident—it's attachment in action.
Couples therapist Figs O'Sullivan joins us to reveal the surprising truth behind relationship conflicts: we don't fight because we don't care, but because we care deeply. Drawing from his journey from childhood dysfunction to creating a loving family, Figgs shares the three-pillar framework that guides his transformative approach to couples therapy.
At the heart of his method lies attachment theory—the understanding that humans need emotional connection from birth until death. When we perceive threats to our bond with a loved one, our nervous system goes into protection mode. Combined with systems theory, we see how couples create feedback loops where one person's defensive reaction triggers the other's fears, escalating conflicts despite their best intentions.
"We're not a threat to each other," Figs explains, "we're just two threatened people having a hard time." This perspective shift is revolutionary—transforming how we view our partner's annoying behaviors as fear responses rather than intentional attacks.
Ready to transform your relationship dynamics? Visit Empathi.com for free resources, including an app to identify your attachment patterns, or explore working with Figgs and his specialized team of couples therapists.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Straight from the Source's Mouth
.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
podcast Frank talk about sex and dating.
Hello everyone, tamara here,welcome to the show.
Today's guest is FiggsO'Sullivan.
He's a couples therapist andwe'll be talking about helping
people go from conflict toconnection.
Thanks for joining me, figgs.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
Thanks for having me on your show, Tamara.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Yes, thank you for being on, and this is for
personal reasons and for theshow, of course.
I found myself newly moved inwith someone and we were getting
snappy with each other for afew days where, for no reason,
it seemed like we just couldn'ttell what was going on.
And then I had just read yourinformation, so it sounded very
relevant for both things at thetime.
Great.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
That's good.
If it can help your listenersand potentially you personally,
that's great.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Yeah, and how do you usually get started with clients
?
Or you can talk about how yougot started in this work first.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
whichever, yeah, so how I get started with how I got
started in the work is, youknow, I came from a
dysfunctional home myself as akid, and so it was kind of
always my biggest heart'slonging to be able to make love
and relationship work and beable to be married, be a dad,
(01:18):
and so you know some people,their life mission is to bring
humanity to Mars.
Other people it's as simple asI want to be able to be a better
spouse, father, than my fatherwas able to be.
I don't say that with anybitterness towards my father, so
(01:43):
that's kind of my life missionand goal.
And then I was lucky enough tobe learned and learning how to
do it myself.
You know, I developed theskills to be able to help other
people do it too.
So, yeah, so you know, I'mmarried, I got two kids, I live,
we live in hawaii, living, I'mstaring, I'm looking out over
(02:06):
the ocean.
When I look off to the right, Iactually am looking at the
ocean.
So all of the dreams of littlefigs have come true, which is
amazing, right?
I mean I literally and I don'tmean that as a boast I literally
pinch myself every day that Icreated a life, a relationship,
(02:31):
a family that my little figsthat didn't have those things
can inhabit and, you know, getthe love and connection and fun
and play that he didn't have asa kid.
But I get to have all of thatnow, which I think is a good
thing to try and help people beable to do Right.
(02:54):
Yeah, so that's you know.
I feel very blessed to get todo work that has a meaningful
impact on people's lives, andevery time I work with someone
it helps me too.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
So yeah, for sure, yeah, having this podcast my
every time I learn stuff and Ijust like I've grown, obviously
from having this, justinterviewing all the people,
that with all the good knowledge, nice.
So and for you, you get to help, you know, hopefully not have
that happen to other kids,because the parents actually
learn how to work together andhave a healthy relationship and
show that to the kids.
(03:28):
So yeah it's like even better.
So what is the usual complaintor who do you usually work with,
like couples first, or people?
Speaker 1 (03:36):
Yeah, I primarily work with couples, right, and
usually the presenting problemis they're struggling to get
along with each other.
Now, whether that's it's gone asfar as there's an affair or,
you know, someone has alreadyleft or they're already divorced
, I mean, obviously there'd bevery extreme scenarios Um, of
(03:58):
course that happens in people'slives.
And then there's like on the far, on the other end, like people
reach out just because they wantto improve their communication
and they scared each otherbecause they had an argument
last night.
They didn't like how it felt.
So there's, you know, differentstarting points, but basically,
you know, typically a couplereaches out because they're
(04:20):
struggling, they're suffering,and then I try and help them
turn that suffering if you thinkof it like turn the suffering,
a base metal, into gold, intolike a transformational
experience that helps them feelmore connected to each other and
love each other in ways thatthey didn't think was even
possible yeah, yeah, and I know,like I said, when I first read
(04:44):
about you, it was kind of itseemed like you basically said
everyone gets this snappy way orlike, some kind of like, and
you forget what you said, how ithappens or what it is exactly
that happens, does that?
I know, you know, it's my.
I'm not very good atremembering, I'm very
improvisational.
I never, I wouldn't, I don'tknow if I ever said the same
(05:06):
thing twice.
I don't know exactly about thesnappy way, but I mean, but
usually most people start offfrom a place where they both,
they both think the other personis the problem, whether they're
they explicit, they're explicitabout that or implicit about it
.
Um, and then one of the firstthings I have to do is help them
(05:26):
see and understand thenarrative of how it's an us
problem, not a me or you problem.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
Yeah, yeah, I can see that.
Yeah, because when you bothassume it's the other person,
then that's when the snappinesshappens, because you're just
like defensive and mad at eachother and they can do no right.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
Exactly yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
And then what are some steps?
Do you have like a basicstructure or does everyone have
the same kind of bottom lineissue?
Speaker 1 (05:55):
Well, so the basic structure.
There's three main pillars tothe work and the first pillar is
attachment theory.
And attachment theory if you'refamiliar with it or your
listeners aren't that familiarwith it, the easiest way to
understand it is we all need tobe emotionally bonded from the
cradle to the grave, and youcould substitute attached for
(06:15):
emotionally bonded, or you couldsubstitute the word loved for
attached.
So everybody needs to feelloved, everybody needs to feel
connected to another person.
It's pretty obvious tounderstand the cradle part right
.
We know human beings were notcapable of surviving in the
world without a birth mother orsome really competent primary
(06:38):
caregiver to be there for us.
So you could have every otherneed met, you could have lots of
food in the room you were bornin, you could be very safe, you
could have iPads, you could havean Amazon Prime subscription,
(07:15):
but none of those things willactually keep you alive.
What keeps you alive whenyou're born is connection to
another person.
We're literally connected viathe umbilical cord, dependent on
our mom at first, and then momand dad, and then community to
make sure a dingo doesn't comeand eat us.
So when we grow up we may thinkwe're not as dependent anymore
for attachment to survive.
But nothing actuallyphysiologically has changed that
much.
We might be a little bit morecompetent in the world, but our
system deep down we still getreally scared when it looks like
(07:36):
our primary attachment figure,primary person we are
emotionally bonded with, who,fingers crossed, when you're a
grown up, when you're an adult,that's no longer your mom.
That's a different problem ifyou're still primarily bonded to
your mom when you're a grown up.
But but yeah, like if it lookslike your primary attachment
figure is not there for you oryou're not good enough for them,
(07:58):
it's really terrifying for yourorganism or physiologically,
and then you will do things toprotest, being in the terror of
being disconnected or not beinggood enough for the person that
you is most important to beconnected to or to be enough for
.
And then that brings us to thesecond.
(08:19):
So that's attachment theory.
So everything a member of acouple does, both members of a
couple do, makes sense when welook at it through the lens of
attachment.
And then we add in the secondpillar, which is systems theory.
So because you're not an island, you're not just doing this on
your own.
Now we have two, but you thinkyou're two separate entities,
(08:41):
and you're right.
But when you come together in arelationship, you create a
third entity, which is thesystem of both of you together.
And so then you could imaginehow it works in the system.
When I get threatened because Idon't feel connected, I protest
in a way that sounds blaming andcomplaining, which threatens my
wife, and then she feels likeshe's not enough and she like
(09:02):
then protests by being defensiveor shutting down, which of
course makes me feel even morealone.
You're not here for me.
So then I do more blaming andcriticizing.
Then she feels more threatened,that she's never enough, and so
she is more defensive or shutsdown.
So, through using understandingattachments, you see how we
(09:24):
create a positive feedback loopthat doesn't feel very positive,
and then the third pillar isjust experiential psychotherapy,
and experiential psychotherapyis just.
We believe that in order to helppeople improve, break out of
that negative feeling, positivefeedback loop based on their
(09:50):
need to be emotionally bonded toeach other because they love
each other, they're reallyimportant to each other we have
to actually resolve a presentmoment of time.
I'm not trying to changepeople's behaviors, I'm not
coaching people.
What we're trying to do isthere's a present moment of time
where that system that I justdescribed is happening right now
(10:11):
.
That system that I justdescribed is happening right now
and through helping them see itfrom the outside instead of
going from.
It's not just the other personis blaming me, it's not just the
other person is being defensive, is they see the entire system
and the system is the problem.
And the system's only happeningbecause we really love each
other.
If I can have the coupleactually experience that in
(10:32):
their hearts, in their guts,right, then all of a sudden we
can go from.
We're not a threat to eachother, we're just two threatened
people that are having a reallyhard time.
And you can imagine, instead ofgoing from, we both look like
tigers, a defensive tiger and anattacking tiger.
To now, we look like two scaredlittle kittens and two scared
(10:54):
little kittens.
It's now possible for them toactually have empathy,
compassion and love, comfort andsoothe each other and the big
tigers go away.
Whether you're a defensive,shutdown tiger, blame and tiger
minimizer tiger, whatever yourparticular flavor of tiger is,
(11:16):
if we can get you to be in theexperience of, I'm actually
threatened because it looks likeyou're not there for me.
I'm threatened because it lookslike I'm a disappointment to
you and we're just in ourthreatened selves.
Now we can actually create thisempathic experience with each
other, compassionate experiencewith each other, compassionate
experience with each other,where now we can be there for
each other, love each other theway we both deserve and long for
(11:38):
.
So you know that obviously tookme, whatever it is, five
minutes to say, but that's it.
Another really important part ofthe work is I never deviate
from literally what I justdescribed to you.
That's it Don't ever try and doanything other than make that
(11:59):
experience happen where we cansee it's both of us.
It de-escalates us.
And then, once we'rede-escalated, now we can try and
reach out vulnerably for ourneeds to be met and be there for
each other Right, and reach outvulnerably for our needs to be
met and be there for each otherright In ways that we can't when
we're still protectingourselves as big tigers.
And then, of course, the reasonswhy we might have learned to
(12:20):
protect ourselves the way we do.
Again, whether you're a blamer,criticizer, shutter downer,
minimizer, placater, there'sgood reasons why people learn to
do those things.
And like, when I say goodreasons, there's probably very
smart for your organism to learnhow to protect yourself in one
way to lessen the impact, thereal pain of being abandoned or
(12:42):
rejected or told that you're toomuch, being ashamed of being
too much or being ashamed of notbeing enough right.
You have to find a way tosurvive.
But if you're going to makelove and relationship work, at
some point we have to see.
The way I learned to survive inthe world is now actually
increasing the disconnection inmy present moment relationship
(13:03):
and I got to learn someflexibility and ability to go
from even if I don't I'm noteven, I can't even see how I
protect myself.
I just think it's natural thatthis is what you do when you
don't feel met by yoursignificant other.
You feel totally justified init, right, but at some point we
need to actually reverseengineer from a reactivity to
(13:25):
I'm actually hurting and shareI'm hurting.
And we and it's a three-leggedrace Can't just have one person
doing it.
We need both people to do it,just like in any three-legged
race.
You can't have one person start.
You can't have one personfinish right without the other
person, you're disqualified.
So we've got to do it togetherand lockstep with each other
(13:45):
yeah, and how long does it take?
Speaker 2 (13:47):
or I'm sure there's extremes, but it's like some
couples is it like a week andthen they're totally fine.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
I mean yeah, I mean, look it's for sure, like if you
think about look what I said,like here's what the work is
that everybody's a dog from thepound.
It's hard for people to accepttheir dogs from the pound.
They got injured in a previoushome, they got hurt.
They now walk through lifescared.
They see a shadow over theirhead and they're scared it's
(14:15):
going to happen again.
But now, of course, we have twodogs from the pound in the same
home with each other, sothey're both going to scare the
living daylights out of eachother.
Helping those dogs on the pound.
See, listen, it's not that theother person is a bad dog, it's
not that you're a bad dog,you're both just scared dogs and
you got to accept you're scareddogs and you're going to be
scared dogs forever.
(14:36):
Like, accept surrender, likecollapse into that and then love
each other in the places whereyou've been trying not to feel
and be in all your life.
Look, I can help people do thework, experience it, but then
they have to do it forever.
They don't have to do it withme forever, but it's not like
(14:58):
we're done now.
It's over.
This is who we are.
I'm someone that got hurt aboutbeing abandoned.
I'm going to be sensitive beingabandoned for the rest of my
life.
Or I'm someone that got hurtabout being rejected for not
enough.
I'm going to be sensitive aboutbeing rejected for not being
enough for the rest of my life.
When you feel abandoned, when Ifeel rejected, we're going to
(15:19):
scare the living daylights outof each other and we're both
going to arm up.
Because it's very quick, yourlimbic system reacts very
quickly.
We're going to arm up for therest of our lives.
We're going to arm up for therest of our lives.
We're going to get in thenegative system with each other
for the rest of our lives.
We're going to have to find ourway back to the neutral
de-escalation where we can loveeach other now the way we
(15:39):
couldn't when we were scaredlittle dogs again right and felt
threatened for the rest of ourlives.
So one of the things that let'ssay if I'm successful at this,
it's because it's expectationmanagement.
Where people think they shouldbe, they're never going to get
to.
People think they're going tobecome whole people.
They're a dog from the poundcell.
(16:02):
They'll get to bury them in theback garden or drop them out at
the bottom of a lake.
I never have to feel that part.
You, my dear partner, won'tmake me feel that part of me and
I won't make that you feel thatpart of you.
That's just not on the menu,it's not possible.
So when you say, like, how longdoes it take?
(16:22):
How long does it take forpeople to accept who they really
are and what they co-createwith each other and, you know,
actually be vulnerable, and thatthey're good, now this is what
they have to do for the rest ofyour life, are there people that
it takes one session?
It's like, you know, they gosee, you know some inspiring
minister and it's demons be gone.
(16:43):
Sure, but for most people theresistance is strong, even if
they're not aware of it.
Like, I am absolutely committedto not feeling abandoned, and
anyone that makes me feelabandoned is going to get my
wrath and I'm totally justifiedin it and undoing that narrative
, and you could imagine, ifsomeone is like that, they
probably pick the partner thatis on the same scale of
(17:08):
commitment that if anyone makesme feel bad about myself.
I'll be watching eight Americanfootball games tonight.
You're not going to be seeingme Right In the house.
Right, I'll be down in thebasement.
Thank you very much Right.
So no, it's a lifetime work.
I can you know they can do itall with me or they.
(17:28):
It's a lifetime work.
I can you know they can do itall with me or they.
At some point we got to acceptwho we are and grieve for the
parts of us that were hurt, andthen love, comfort and suit each
other.
And, like I said, we got to doit again and again for the
younger listeners, for EBS.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
There's no final destination final destination,
yeah, although I would I mean, Iknow from personal experience
too sometimes like where you'rewhen you're in that wounded like
dog pound state yeah, you canget out of it faster potentially
, or heal longer.
Speaker 1 (17:59):
Yeah, yeah, well right, no, of course, yeah, like
, yeah, we want to like growyour window of tolerance for
being able to be hurt, thatyou're not like completely
numbing out or you're not likecompletely out of your capacity,
like we've got to grow yourwindow of tolerance to be able
to be hurt.
And then, of course, with acouple, we got to be able to
grow your window of tolerance tobe hurt together.
(18:20):
Because when you're in theplace where one of us feels
abandoned, the other feelsrejected or we both feel
abandoned, that's actually the,that's the most people.
They're trying to connect witheach other in the next place,
the place that isn't we bothfeel abandoned, or one of us is
abandoned, one of us is rejectedor we both feel rejected.
They want to connect in thenext place, but actually the
place we have to connect witheach other is the place where we
(18:42):
both feel rejected, or we bothfeel abandoned, or one of us is
abandoned, the other is.
So that's a really tough thing,and so, in terms of my goal is
always to get people to a placethat they don't need me as soon
as possible, so I try to helpthem have these transformational
experiences, understandthemselves, their partner and
(19:02):
the system that they co-createwith each other and then ideally
we say goodbye because now youcan do it without me, right, you
can.
You can go from disconnectionto de-escalation to meaningful
deep repair where you're lovingeach other now the way you
couldn't in the fight, like youjust don't need me any, like
(19:22):
I'll cry with joy the day youcome in to my office and you
tell me we did all of thiswithout you.
So at first it's training wheelswith me and I'm literally
sometimes I compare myself likeI'm a dance teacher, where at
first I don't know if you'veever worked with a dance teacher
where they literally are movingyour feet.
It doesn't feel like dancing,right, you're literally just
(19:43):
putting your feet in the numbersor the squares that they tell
you to put them in and actuallyat first they might actually be
picking up your legs and movingyour legs.
It doesn't seem like you'redoing any dancing, but over time
, eventually you're actuallyable, because we did it enough
times, there was enoughrepetition.
You have the muscle memory, youhave the experience in your
(20:07):
heart, in your gut.
You can then do that yourself.
You have an experience of it.
Heart in your gut.
You can then do that yourself.
You have an experience of itfeels good.
Oh my God, it's worth actuallydoing this.
So that's the goal, right, youknow, I have a bird's eye view,
understand what's happening,give it to the clients and then
they've incorporated it, they'veingested it all and then they
(20:29):
have a mini little figs insidethem, both of them and they can
do it without me, and that'spart of why I like couples.
Counseling is individualcounseling, like the person
could be with me for 10 years.
The intimacy is hard for anemotional withdrawer.
Right, avoidantly attachedperson like me.
Couple, I get to help them forthree months, six months and we
(20:51):
say goodbye and they make roomfor the next couple that I can
help.
So, yeah, the goal is it'ssupposed to be short-term,
intermediate-term work, but Ialways like make it's important
to tell people this.
Like say like you're the kind ofperson that doesn't work out
without a coach, well, likedon't, don't, just like beat
(21:13):
yourself up and go, that's it.
I'm not working out now becauseI won't work out on my own.
You, you should still work outevery week with a coach.
Like it's okay, like I don'twork out unless, like I do
competitive paddling.
Well, why do I show up fortraining?
There are five other people inthe boat that are relying on me
to show up.
That's okay, right, it's likeyou know, I'm really glad, like
(21:39):
I'm pretty lazy, if I was goingto do a solo sport.
I might be lucky if I went oncea week to training, because I
have a million ways I canconvince the ocean's too rough
today.
Oh, that's a very strong wind,right, there's a million ways I
will convince myself not to go.
So for the people that it's notthree to six months, it's like
(22:00):
after flip, say, we need tocoach every week forever, or,
like you know, the year twoyears.
To coach every week forever, or, like you know, the year two
years, it's still better thanthe alternative, no working out
and you die 10 years earlier oryour relationship ends because
you just literally fine if we,if we can't get fixed, we just
won't do the work at all.
Speaker 2 (22:18):
Yeah, yeah, and since you talked about how to work,
or working with you, you want toshare how people can work with
you, if they want to, or yourresources.
Yeah, the with you if they wantto, or your resources.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
Yeah, the easiest way is just go to our website.
And you know it's me, my wife.
We do the exact same kind ofwork.
Um, we're both, uh, certifiedemotionally focused couples
therapists.
We have a staff of therapiststhat we and coaches that we
train Um so, um so, and we havekind of like a professional
(22:50):
sports mentality.
It's a little weird for thetherapist, like we really
believe in being the very, verybest.
Everybody's trying to be thebest.
The fee is a rep defeatstherapist charges as a
representation of their abilityto deliver value.
So the best therapist chargedthe most amount of money, um,
and so the only way someone ishere is they're on the path.
(23:11):
They're either at excellence oron the path to excellence, and
so it's kind of a littledifferent than the way most
therapists think of the work.
Um, but yeah, the best place isjust the website.
It's just empathycom and it'sempathy with an I on the end,
not a Y on the endcom, okay, andon the website we have free
(23:32):
resources, not just counselingand therapy.
We actually developed a prettyuh detailed app for couples
where you can work out yourattachment styles and you can
see, by both of you answeringthe questions, you can discover
what is the system that you'reco-creating with each other.
All of that is free and um, wehave courses and but yeah, but
(23:54):
there is no.
All of that stuff it's great,it was fun for us to create, but
there's no substitute for youand a couple's coach or
therapist that really knows whatthey're doing Right.
Um and so, if it's not me orempathy, I would definitely.
If you're a couple, I wouldhighly recommend you finding
(24:14):
someone that really knows notjust that, they did some
training, they know how to doemotionally focused couples
therapy.
That's their specialty.
They focus on it, they don'tdeviate from it.
Um, the reason it works it'sthe gold standard.
That's their specialty.
They focus on it, they don'tdeviate from it.
The reason it works it's thegold standard.
It's the most evidence-based.
We use it because it worksright.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
It's just the most effective way to help couples.
Yeah, and real quick.
What do you?
Well, I guess we already talkedabout this.
What do most couples do is justget defensive and do what you
just said.
So, yeah, never mind, I willask uh, what is your?
Speaker 1 (24:52):
do you have any final thoughts, like just kind of run
down, or yeah, just the onething I would just remind people
is the only people.
The only reason people fight inlove and relationship or argue,
is because they love each other.
It's really.
It's sometimes when things areso simple it's hard to grasp
what that means.
You know, we often get caughtup as ah, we're fighting because
(25:16):
the other person is a pain inthe ass.
Ah, we're fighting because theother person is a ball buster,
like whatever you're like.
Actually, the only reasonthey're paying the ass is
they're threatened inside.
They're scared that they can'tfind you or there's no way
you'll be happy with them.
The only reason they look likea ball buster is because they're
terrified.
Again, right, and why are theyterrified?
(25:36):
Because being connected to youmeans so much to them.
So people's worst behaviors arejust the things they do when
they're scared.
They can't be connected in away that makes them feel safe.
As simple as that sounds, right, that's really important that
you can make that reframe inyour head.
(25:56):
When your partner or spouselooks the most annoying, all
that's happening is they'rehurting because being
disconnected from you is awfulfor them.
They may not react the way youdo.
Like you may be like.
You know, I'm going to like useeight boxes of Kleenex right
now and wail, listening to Allby Myself, by Celine Dion, and
(26:20):
so it might be very hard for youto understand.
Someone else hurt by going downinto the basement and not coming
out for two days, you mightjust think that person didn't
give a shit.
Look at them down there.
That's actually not what'shappening.
No one goes down to thebasement for two days without
really hurting inside.
That's just what they do tosurvive.
Only fighting because you loveeach other, and your worst
(26:41):
behaviors are just the thingsyou do to survive when you're
hurting because disconnection isso terrible.
You've got to always keep comingback to that.
And if you can't come back toit, you've got to do the work
you know to work out those knots, those resistance points,
because everyone has them.
Well, no, you don't understandhow terrible my spouse is right.
(27:02):
Like yeah, we've it right.
Like like yeah, we got to dothe work right to on on what I
do, like like a massage.
Right, we got to like unwindsome of those um friction points
or knots that stop you beingable to see.
Hey, you're both people thatmake sense, you're both people
that are just hurtingeverybody's okay, just calm down
(27:23):
.
Nothing to see folks.
I just got two people that loveeach other that are scaring
each other.
They're going to be okay in aminute.
We've got to be able to makethat shift inside of ourselves
and each other.
That's it.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
Okay, yeah, well, thank you very much.
Good stuff, and obviouslyyou're effective, so it's always
good.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
Yeah, no worries, yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:47):
And, like you said, simple steps, but doing it is
easier said than done.
Speaker 1 (27:51):
Great.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
Great information, all right, and if you love this
episode, be sure to tell yourfriends about it and rate it as
well.
And be sure to follow the showas well and check out Empathycom
for all of his FIGS information.
So thank you again.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
You're welcome.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
All right, thanks everyone, frank talk, frank talk
sex and dating educate.
Welcome to the Straight from the Source's Mouth
.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
podcast Frank talk about sex and dating.
Hello everyone, tamara here,welcome to the show.
Today's guest is FiggsO'Sullivan.
He's a couples therapist andwe'll be talking about helping
people go from conflict toconnection.
Thanks for joining me, figgs.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
Thanks for having me on your show, Tamara.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Yes, thank you for being on, and this is for
personal reasons and for theshow, of course.
I found myself newly moved inwith someone and we were getting
snappy with each other for afew days where, for no reason,
it seemed like we just couldn'ttell what was going on.
And then I had just read yourinformation, so it sounded very
relevant for both things at thetime.
Great.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
That's good.
If it can help your listenersand potentially you personally,
that's great.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Yeah, and how do you usually get started with clients
?
Or you can talk about how yougot started in this work first.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
whichever, yeah, so how I get started with how I got
started in the work is, youknow, I came from a
dysfunctional home myself as akid, and so it was kind of
always my biggest heart'slonging to be able to make love
and relationship work and beable to be married, be a dad,
(01:18):
and so you know some people,their life mission is to bring
humanity to Mars.
Other people it's as simple asI want to be able to be a better
spouse, father, than my fatherwas able to be.
I don't say that with anybitterness towards my father, so
(01:43):
that's kind of my life missionand goal.
And then I was lucky enough tobe learned and learning how to
do it myself.
You know, I developed theskills to be able to help other
people do it too.
So, yeah, so you know, I'mmarried, I got two kids, I live,
we live in hawaii, living, I'mstaring, I'm looking out over
(02:06):
the ocean.
When I look off to the right, Iactually am looking at the
ocean.
So all of the dreams of littlefigs have come true, which is
amazing, right?
I mean I literally and I don'tmean that as a boast I literally
pinch myself every day that Icreated a life, a relationship,
(02:31):
a family that my little figsthat didn't have those things
can inhabit and, you know, getthe love and connection and fun
and play that he didn't have asa kid.
But I get to have all of thatnow, which I think is a good
thing to try and help people beable to do Right.
(02:54):
Yeah, so that's you know.
I feel very blessed to get todo work that has a meaningful
impact on people's lives, andevery time I work with someone
it helps me too.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
So yeah, for sure, yeah, having this podcast my
every time I learn stuff and Ijust like I've grown, obviously
from having this, justinterviewing all the people,
that with all the good knowledge, nice.
So and for you, you get to help, you know, hopefully not have
that happen to other kids,because the parents actually
learn how to work together andhave a healthy relationship and
show that to the kids.
(03:28):
So yeah it's like even better.
So what is the usual complaintor who do you usually work with,
like couples first, or people?
Speaker 1 (03:36):
Yeah, I primarily work with couples, right, and
usually the presenting problemis they're struggling to get
along with each other.
Now, whether that's it's gone asfar as there's an affair or,
you know, someone has alreadyleft or they're already divorced
, I mean, obviously there'd bevery extreme scenarios Um, of
(03:58):
course that happens in people'slives.
And then there's like on the far, on the other end, like people
reach out just because they wantto improve their communication
and they scared each otherbecause they had an argument
last night.
They didn't like how it felt.
So there's, you know, differentstarting points, but basically,
you know, typically a couplereaches out because they're
(04:20):
struggling, they're suffering,and then I try and help them
turn that suffering if you thinkof it like turn the suffering,
a base metal, into gold, intolike a transformational
experience that helps them feelmore connected to each other and
love each other in ways thatthey didn't think was even
possible yeah, yeah, and I know,like I said, when I first read
(04:44):
about you, it was kind of itseemed like you basically said
everyone gets this snappy way orlike, some kind of like, and
you forget what you said, how ithappens or what it is exactly
that happens, does that?
I know, you know, it's my.
I'm not very good atremembering, I'm very
improvisational.
I never, I wouldn't, I don'tknow if I ever said the same
(05:06):
thing twice.
I don't know exactly about thesnappy way, but I mean, but
usually most people start offfrom a place where they both,
they both think the other personis the problem, whether they're
they explicit, they're explicitabout that or implicit about it
.
Um, and then one of the firstthings I have to do is help them
(05:26):
see and understand thenarrative of how it's an us
problem, not a me or you problem.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
Yeah, yeah, I can see that.
Yeah, because when you bothassume it's the other person,
then that's when the snappinesshappens, because you're just
like defensive and mad at eachother and they can do no right.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
Exactly yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
And then what are some steps?
Do you have like a basicstructure or does everyone have
the same kind of bottom lineissue?
Speaker 1 (05:55):
Well, so the basic structure.
There's three main pillars tothe work and the first pillar is
attachment theory.
And attachment theory if you'refamiliar with it or your
listeners aren't that familiarwith it, the easiest way to
understand it is we all need tobe emotionally bonded from the
cradle to the grave, and youcould substitute attached for
(06:15):
emotionally bonded, or you couldsubstitute the word loved for
attached.
So everybody needs to feelloved, everybody needs to feel
connected to another person.
It's pretty obvious tounderstand the cradle part right
.
We know human beings were notcapable of surviving in the
world without a birth mother orsome really competent primary
(06:38):
caregiver to be there for us.
So you could have every otherneed met, you could have lots of
food in the room you were bornin, you could be very safe, you
could have iPads, you could havean Amazon Prime subscription,
(07:15):
but none of those things willactually keep you alive.
What keeps you alive whenyou're born is connection to
another person.
We're literally connected viathe umbilical cord, dependent on
our mom at first, and then momand dad, and then community to
make sure a dingo doesn't comeand eat us.
So when we grow up we may thinkwe're not as dependent anymore
for attachment to survive.
But nothing actuallyphysiologically has changed that
much.
We might be a little bit morecompetent in the world, but our
system deep down we still getreally scared when it looks like
(07:36):
our primary attachment figure,primary person we are
emotionally bonded with, who,fingers crossed, when you're a
grown up, when you're an adult,that's no longer your mom.
That's a different problem ifyou're still primarily bonded to
your mom when you're a grown up.
But but yeah, like if it lookslike your primary attachment
figure is not there for you oryou're not good enough for them,
(07:58):
it's really terrifying for yourorganism or physiologically,
and then you will do things toprotest, being in the terror of
being disconnected or not beinggood enough for the person that
you is most important to beconnected to or to be enough for
.
And then that brings us to thesecond.
(08:19):
So that's attachment theory.
So everything a member of acouple does, both members of a
couple do, makes sense when welook at it through the lens of
attachment.
And then we add in the secondpillar, which is systems theory.
So because you're not an island, you're not just doing this on
your own.
Now we have two, but you thinkyou're two separate entities,
(08:41):
and you're right.
But when you come together in arelationship, you create a
third entity, which is thesystem of both of you together.
And so then you could imaginehow it works in the system.
When I get threatened because Idon't feel connected, I protest
in a way that sounds blaming andcomplaining, which threatens my
wife, and then she feels likeshe's not enough and she like
(09:02):
then protests by being defensiveor shutting down, which of
course makes me feel even morealone.
You're not here for me.
So then I do more blaming andcriticizing.
Then she feels more threatened,that she's never enough, and so
she is more defensive or shutsdown.
So, through using understandingattachments, you see how we
(09:24):
create a positive feedback loopthat doesn't feel very positive,
and then the third pillar isjust experiential psychotherapy,
and experiential psychotherapyis just.
We believe that in order to helppeople improve, break out of
that negative feeling, positivefeedback loop based on their
(09:50):
need to be emotionally bonded toeach other because they love
each other, they're reallyimportant to each other we have
to actually resolve a presentmoment of time.
I'm not trying to changepeople's behaviors, I'm not
coaching people.
What we're trying to do isthere's a present moment of time
where that system that I justdescribed is happening right now
(10:11):
.
That system that I justdescribed is happening right now
and through helping them see itfrom the outside instead of
going from.
It's not just the other personis blaming me, it's not just the
other person is being defensive, is they see the entire system
and the system is the problem.
And the system's only happeningbecause we really love each
other.
If I can have the coupleactually experience that in
(10:32):
their hearts, in their guts,right, then all of a sudden we
can go from.
We're not a threat to eachother, we're just two threatened
people that are having a reallyhard time.
And you can imagine, instead ofgoing from, we both look like
tigers, a defensive tiger and anattacking tiger.
To now, we look like two scaredlittle kittens and two scared
(10:54):
little kittens.
It's now possible for them toactually have empathy,
compassion and love, comfort andsoothe each other and the big
tigers go away.
Whether you're a defensive,shutdown tiger, blame and tiger
minimizer tiger, whatever yourparticular flavor of tiger is,
(11:16):
if we can get you to be in theexperience of, I'm actually
threatened because it looks likeyou're not there for me.
I'm threatened because it lookslike I'm a disappointment to
you and we're just in ourthreatened selves.
Now we can actually create thisempathic experience with each
other, compassionate experiencewith each other, compassionate
experience with each other,where now we can be there for
each other, love each other theway we both deserve and long for
(11:38):
.
So you know that obviously tookme, whatever it is, five
minutes to say, but that's it.
Another really important part ofthe work is I never deviate
from literally what I justdescribed to you.
That's it Don't ever try and doanything other than make that
(11:59):
experience happen where we cansee it's both of us.
It de-escalates us.
And then, once we'rede-escalated, now we can try and
reach out vulnerably for ourneeds to be met and be there for
each other Right, and reach outvulnerably for our needs to be
met and be there for each otherright In ways that we can't when
we're still protectingourselves as big tigers.
And then, of course, the reasonswhy we might have learned to
(12:20):
protect ourselves the way we do.
Again, whether you're a blamer,criticizer, shutter downer,
minimizer, placater, there'sgood reasons why people learn to
do those things.
And like, when I say goodreasons, there's probably very
smart for your organism to learnhow to protect yourself in one
way to lessen the impact, thereal pain of being abandoned or
(12:42):
rejected or told that you're toomuch, being ashamed of being
too much or being ashamed of notbeing enough right.
You have to find a way tosurvive.
But if you're going to makelove and relationship work, at
some point we have to see.
The way I learned to survive inthe world is now actually
increasing the disconnection inmy present moment relationship
(13:03):
and I got to learn someflexibility and ability to go
from even if I don't I'm noteven, I can't even see how I
protect myself.
I just think it's natural thatthis is what you do when you
don't feel met by yoursignificant other.
You feel totally justified init, right, but at some point we
need to actually reverseengineer from a reactivity to
(13:25):
I'm actually hurting and shareI'm hurting.
And we and it's a three-leggedrace Can't just have one person
doing it.
We need both people to do it,just like in any three-legged
race.
You can't have one person start.
You can't have one personfinish right without the other
person, you're disqualified.
So we've got to do it togetherand lockstep with each other
(13:45):
yeah, and how long does it take?
Speaker 2 (13:47):
or I'm sure there's extremes, but it's like some
couples is it like a week andthen they're totally fine.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
I mean yeah, I mean, look it's for sure, like if you
think about look what I said,like here's what the work is
that everybody's a dog from thepound.
It's hard for people to accepttheir dogs from the pound.
They got injured in a previoushome, they got hurt.
They now walk through lifescared.
They see a shadow over theirhead and they're scared it's
(14:15):
going to happen again.
But now, of course, we have twodogs from the pound in the same
home with each other, sothey're both going to scare the
living daylights out of eachother.
Helping those dogs on the pound.
See, listen, it's not that theother person is a bad dog, it's
not that you're a bad dog,you're both just scared dogs and
you got to accept you're scareddogs and you're going to be
scared dogs forever.
(14:36):
Like, accept surrender, likecollapse into that and then love
each other in the places whereyou've been trying not to feel
and be in all your life.
Look, I can help people do thework, experience it, but then
they have to do it forever.
They don't have to do it withme forever, but it's not like
(14:58):
we're done now.
It's over.
This is who we are.
I'm someone that got hurt aboutbeing abandoned.
I'm going to be sensitive beingabandoned for the rest of my
life.
Or I'm someone that got hurtabout being rejected for not
enough.
I'm going to be sensitive aboutbeing rejected for not being
enough for the rest of my life.
When you feel abandoned, when Ifeel rejected, we're going to
(15:19):
scare the living daylights outof each other and we're both
going to arm up.
Because it's very quick, yourlimbic system reacts very
quickly.
We're going to arm up for therest of our lives.
We're going to arm up for therest of our lives.
We're going to get in thenegative system with each other
for the rest of our lives.
We're going to have to find ourway back to the neutral
de-escalation where we can loveeach other now the way we
(15:39):
couldn't when we were scaredlittle dogs again right and felt
threatened for the rest of ourlives.
So one of the things that let'ssay if I'm successful at this,
it's because it's expectationmanagement.
Where people think they shouldbe, they're never going to get
to.
People think they're going tobecome whole people.
They're a dog from the poundcell.
(16:02):
They'll get to bury them in theback garden or drop them out at
the bottom of a lake.
I never have to feel that part.
You, my dear partner, won'tmake me feel that part of me and
I won't make that you feel thatpart of you.
That's just not on the menu,it's not possible.
So when you say, like, how longdoes it take?
(16:22):
How long does it take forpeople to accept who they really
are and what they co-createwith each other and, you know,
actually be vulnerable, and thatthey're good, now this is what
they have to do for the rest ofyour life, are there people that
it takes one session?
It's like, you know, they gosee, you know some inspiring
minister and it's demons be gone.
(16:43):
Sure, but for most people theresistance is strong, even if
they're not aware of it.
Like, I am absolutely committedto not feeling abandoned, and
anyone that makes me feelabandoned is going to get my
wrath and I'm totally justifiedin it and undoing that narrative
, and you could imagine, ifsomeone is like that, they
probably pick the partner thatis on the same scale of
(17:08):
commitment that if anyone makesme feel bad about myself.
I'll be watching eight Americanfootball games tonight.
You're not going to be seeingme Right In the house.
Right, I'll be down in thebasement.
Thank you very much Right.
So no, it's a lifetime work.
I can you know they can do itall with me or they.
(17:28):
It's a lifetime work.
I can you know they can do itall with me or they.
At some point we got to acceptwho we are and grieve for the
parts of us that were hurt, andthen love, comfort and suit each
other.
And, like I said, we got to doit again and again for the
younger listeners, for EBS.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
There's no final destination final destination,
yeah, although I would I mean, Iknow from personal experience
too sometimes like where you'rewhen you're in that wounded like
dog pound state yeah, you canget out of it faster potentially
, or heal longer.
Speaker 1 (17:59):
Yeah, yeah, well right, no, of course, yeah, like
, yeah, we want to like growyour window of tolerance for
being able to be hurt, thatyou're not like completely
numbing out or you're not likecompletely out of your capacity,
like we've got to grow yourwindow of tolerance to be able
to be hurt.
And then, of course, with acouple, we got to be able to
grow your window of tolerance tobe hurt together.
(18:20):
Because when you're in theplace where one of us feels
abandoned, the other feelsrejected or we both feel
abandoned, that's actually the,that's the most people.
They're trying to connect witheach other in the next place,
the place that isn't we bothfeel abandoned, or one of us is
abandoned, one of us is rejectedor we both feel rejected.
They want to connect in thenext place, but actually the
place we have to connect witheach other is the place where we
(18:42):
both feel rejected, or we bothfeel abandoned, or one of us is
abandoned, the other is.
So that's a really tough thing,and so, in terms of my goal is
always to get people to a placethat they don't need me as soon
as possible, so I try to helpthem have these transformational
experiences, understandthemselves, their partner and
(19:02):
the system that they co-createwith each other and then ideally
we say goodbye because now youcan do it without me, right, you
can.
You can go from disconnectionto de-escalation to meaningful
deep repair where you're lovingeach other now the way you
couldn't in the fight, like youjust don't need me any, like
(19:22):
I'll cry with joy the day youcome in to my office and you
tell me we did all of thiswithout you.
So at first it's training wheelswith me and I'm literally
sometimes I compare myself likeI'm a dance teacher, where at
first I don't know if you'veever worked with a dance teacher
where they literally are movingyour feet.
It doesn't feel like dancing,right, you're literally just
(19:43):
putting your feet in the numbersor the squares that they tell
you to put them in and actuallyat first they might actually be
picking up your legs and movingyour legs.
It doesn't seem like you'redoing any dancing, but over time
, eventually you're actuallyable, because we did it enough
times, there was enoughrepetition.
You have the muscle memory, youhave the experience in your
(20:07):
heart, in your gut.
You can then do that yourself.
You have an experience of it.
Heart in your gut.
You can then do that yourself.
You have an experience of itfeels good.
Oh my God, it's worth actuallydoing this.
So that's the goal, right, youknow, I have a bird's eye view,
understand what's happening,give it to the clients and then
they've incorporated it, they'veingested it all and then they
(20:29):
have a mini little figs insidethem, both of them and they can
do it without me, and that'spart of why I like couples.
Counseling is individualcounseling, like the person
could be with me for 10 years.
The intimacy is hard for anemotional withdrawer.
Right, avoidantly attachedperson like me.
Couple, I get to help them forthree months, six months and we
(20:51):
say goodbye and they make roomfor the next couple that I can
help.
So, yeah, the goal is it'ssupposed to be short-term,
intermediate-term work, but Ialways like make it's important
to tell people this.
Like say like you're the kind ofperson that doesn't work out
without a coach, well, likedon't, don't, just like beat
(21:13):
yourself up and go, that's it.
I'm not working out now becauseI won't work out on my own.
You, you should still work outevery week with a coach.
Like it's okay, like I don'twork out unless, like I do
competitive paddling.
Well, why do I show up fortraining?
There are five other people inthe boat that are relying on me
to show up.
That's okay, right, it's likeyou know, I'm really glad, like
(21:39):
I'm pretty lazy, if I was goingto do a solo sport.
I might be lucky if I went oncea week to training, because I
have a million ways I canconvince the ocean's too rough
today.
Oh, that's a very strong wind,right, there's a million ways I
will convince myself not to go.
So for the people that it's notthree to six months, it's like
(22:00):
after flip, say, we need tocoach every week forever, or,
like you know, the year twoyears.
To coach every week forever, or, like you know, the year two
years, it's still better thanthe alternative, no working out
and you die 10 years earlier oryour relationship ends because
you just literally fine if we,if we can't get fixed, we just
won't do the work at all.
Speaker 2 (22:18):
Yeah, yeah, and since you talked about how to work,
or working with you, you want toshare how people can work with
you, if they want to, or yourresources.
Yeah, the with you if they wantto, or your resources.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
Yeah, the easiest way is just go to our website.
And you know it's me, my wife.
We do the exact same kind ofwork.
Um, we're both, uh, certifiedemotionally focused couples
therapists.
We have a staff of therapiststhat we and coaches that we
train Um so, um so, and we havekind of like a professional
(22:50):
sports mentality.
It's a little weird for thetherapist, like we really
believe in being the very, verybest.
Everybody's trying to be thebest.
The fee is a rep defeatstherapist charges as a
representation of their abilityto deliver value.
So the best therapist chargedthe most amount of money, um,
and so the only way someone ishere is they're on the path.
(23:11):
They're either at excellence oron the path to excellence, and
so it's kind of a littledifferent than the way most
therapists think of the work.
Um, but yeah, the best place isjust the website.
It's just empathycom and it'sempathy with an I on the end,
not a Y on the endcom, okay, andon the website we have free
(23:32):
resources, not just counselingand therapy.
We actually developed a prettyuh detailed app for couples
where you can work out yourattachment styles and you can
see, by both of you answeringthe questions, you can discover
what is the system that you'reco-creating with each other.
All of that is free and um, wehave courses and but yeah, but
(23:54):
there is no.
All of that stuff it's great,it was fun for us to create, but
there's no substitute for youand a couple's coach or
therapist that really knows whatthey're doing Right.
Um and so, if it's not me orempathy, I would definitely.
If you're a couple, I wouldhighly recommend you finding
(24:14):
someone that really knows notjust that, they did some
training, they know how to doemotionally focused couples
therapy.
That's their specialty.
They focus on it, they don'tdeviate from it.
Um, the reason it works it'sthe gold standard.
That's their specialty.
They focus on it, they don'tdeviate from it.
The reason it works it's thegold standard.
It's the most evidence-based.
We use it because it worksright.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
It's just the most effective way to help couples.
Yeah, and real quick.
What do you?
Well, I guess we already talkedabout this.
What do most couples do is justget defensive and do what you
just said.
So, yeah, never mind, I willask uh, what is your?
Speaker 1 (24:52):
do you have any final thoughts, like just kind of run
down, or yeah, just the onething I would just remind people
is the only people.
The only reason people fight inlove and relationship or argue,
is because they love each other.
It's really.
It's sometimes when things areso simple it's hard to grasp
what that means.
You know, we often get caughtup as ah, we're fighting because
(25:16):
the other person is a pain inthe ass.
Ah, we're fighting because theother person is a ball buster,
like whatever you're like.
Actually, the only reasonthey're paying the ass is
they're threatened inside.
They're scared that they can'tfind you or there's no way
you'll be happy with them.
The only reason they look likea ball buster is because they're
terrified.
Again, right, and why are theyterrified?
(25:36):
Because being connected to youmeans so much to them.
So people's worst behaviors arejust the things they do when
they're scared.
They can't be connected in away that makes them feel safe.
As simple as that sounds, right, that's really important that
you can make that reframe inyour head.
(25:56):
When your partner or spouselooks the most annoying, all
that's happening is they'rehurting because being
disconnected from you is awfulfor them.
They may not react the way youdo.
Like you may be like.
You know, I'm going to like useeight boxes of Kleenex right
now and wail, listening to Allby Myself, by Celine Dion, and
(26:20):
so it might be very hard for youto understand.
Someone else hurt by going downinto the basement and not coming
out for two days, you mightjust think that person didn't
give a shit.
Look at them down there.
That's actually not what'shappening.
No one goes down to thebasement for two days without
really hurting inside.
That's just what they do tosurvive.
Only fighting because you loveeach other, and your worst
(26:41):
behaviors are just the thingsyou do to survive when you're
hurting because disconnection isso terrible.
You've got to always keep comingback to that.
And if you can't come back toit, you've got to do the work
you know to work out those knots, those resistance points,
because everyone has them.
Well, no, you don't understandhow terrible my spouse is right.
(27:02):
Like yeah, we've it right.
Like like yeah, we got to dothe work right to on on what I
do, like like a massage.
Right, we got to like unwindsome of those um friction points
or knots that stop you beingable to see.
Hey, you're both people thatmake sense, you're both people
that are just hurtingeverybody's okay, just calm down
(27:23):
.
Nothing to see folks.
I just got two people that loveeach other that are scaring
each other.
They're going to be okay in aminute.
We've got to be able to makethat shift inside of ourselves
and each other.
That's it.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
Okay, yeah, well, thank you very much.
Good stuff, and obviouslyyou're effective, so it's always
good.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
Yeah, no worries, yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:47):
And, like you said, simple steps, but doing it is
easier said than done.
Speaker 1 (27:51):
Great.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
Great information, all right, and if you love this
episode, be sure to tell yourfriends about it and rate it as
well.
And be sure to follow the showas well and check out Empathycom
for all of his FIGS information.
So thank you again.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
You're welcome.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
All right, thanks everyone, frank talk, frank talk
sex and dating educate.
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