September 23, 2025 • 28 mins
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The use of victim imagery can be a powerful tool when changing hearts and minds for LIFE. This week we are joined on Straight Talk on Life Issues by Maison DesChamp and Sarah Terzo as we discuss when, where, and why to use victim imagery. It is important that when we defend life, we know how to use every tool in our toolbox.
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Episode Transcript
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Maison (00:03):
When you see the pictures, it becomes real.
What abortion is.
When you see a picture of thevictims of abortion, when you
see a dead baby, your eyescannot lie to your heart.
Victor (00:19):
Welcome back to Straight Talk on Life Issues.
I'm Victor Nievis.
As always, joined by BradMattis, president of Life Issues
Institute.
Today we'll be having a veryimportant conversation
discussing whether or notgraphic images of abortion's
tiny victims should be used as apro-life tool.
Brad (00:36):
Well, Victor, while almost everyone thinks that people
should have the right to usethese graphic imagery of tiny
victims, many people, includingpro-life advocates, are divided
on whether it's appropriate todo so.
Victor (00:50):
And these graphic images are admittedly horrific to
view, but they're sometimesquite necessary.
Brad (00:57):
There's a time and place for using such imagery as a
pro-life tool.
Seeing those images reminds methat I'm fighting so hard, and
it also tells me how gruesome,violent, and evil abortion
really is.
Victor (01:12):
Let's jump right in today with our guests.
First joining us is SarahTerzo, a pro-life journalist and
blogger who's written over athousand articles on the topic
of abortion.
Her work has been featured byoutlets like live action news,
life news, national right tolife, and many more.
We're also joined by MasonDeschamps.
He's a 25-year-old freeclimber.
You may know him as Pro-LifeSpider-Man.
(01:34):
He climbs the exterior ofbuildings with one thought in
mind, saving the life of anunborn child.
Mason and Sarah, welcome to theshow.
Sarah (01:42):
Thank you.
Victor (01:42):
Thank you.
Brad (01:54):
Let's start with you, Mason.
In Victor's introduction ofyou, he mentioned uh Pro-Life
Spider-Man.
So I'm sure that there arelisteners listening to the
program who may not be aware ofthe uh curious little thing that
you are doing to advocate forlife.
It's so far out of the box.
It just gives me a chill up myspine as I think of your parents
(02:18):
watching that and seeingpictures.
So give us a brief descriptionof what you do as pro-life
Spider-Man.
Maison (02:24):
Yeah, so a few years ago, I was 22 years old and I
was a rock climber.
That's what I did.
When I was 16, my whole familymoved from a small little farm
town in Michigan out to LosAngeles, California.
And for me, it was such aculture shock that the first
thing I wanted to do was toleave.
So when I turned 18, I threweverything into my car and I
(02:44):
skipped my graduation and I leftto Yosemite National Park.
And that was where I reallystarted to rock climb.
And pretty quickly, justbecause of the competitive
nature of Yosemite, I got good.
And I started climbing with allof these professional climbers.
But for people who don'tunderstand climbing, how I try
to explain it to them is that tobe good at it, you have to be a
(03:08):
slave to it.
It has to consume your life.
And so I was literally, I wassleeping in the boulders up
there and living out of my car.
And every morning I would justwake up and go rock climbing for
food.
And this is a common thing inYosemite, is we we'd go to the
pizza deck and we would justwait.
And there's gonna be like acrowd of like five, six climbers
(03:28):
just waiting for somebody toget up and leave half their
pizza, and then you you go andyou eat the rest, and that's how
you survive.
But you get to climb every day,and so that was my life.
You know, I'm gonna be honest,it was a bit vain.
I tell people climbing isprobably the most useless
activity, it doesn't benefitanybody.
You're not producing anythingfor society.
It's fun, but man, is it awaste of time?
(03:50):
And so that's where I was in mylife, and I loved it.
I had no desire to ever leaveit.
And then I was on my phone oneday and I seen this picture, and
it was a picture of a baby.
And normally when you seepictures of babies, they've got
cute little bows on their headand they're smiling.
But this one sat in a ziploccontainer with a smash skull and
(04:11):
one eye left open.
And it was at that moment myheart was just entirely
convicted.
And I started researching,okay, where did this baby come
from?
And this was a baby that waskilled by abortion in
Washington, D.C., in an eventthat's known as the Justice for
the Five.
And so some friends of minewere outside of the clinic when
a medical waste truck driverpulled up, and this guy ended up
(04:34):
giving them one of these boxesof dead babies to give them a
burial.
And they opened it up, andinside there was 115 murdered
babies, five of which werealmost nine months ready to be
born.
And so I saw this and I justknew I wanted to do something.
How could I say that I waspro-life and not realize what it
(04:57):
meant, right?
Because you don't reallyunderstand what you're saying
until you see it.
Until you see it, it's justthis political idea like taxes
and social security or whatever.
But when you see it, youunderstand that this isn't
politics, this is a Holocaust.
And so my whole life wastransformed.
And I thought to myself, whatcould I do?
I'm broke, no influence, whatcould I do?
(05:18):
And I thought back to this guy,his name was Alain Robert.
He was a professional climber.
And back in the 90s and the2000s, he climbed skyscrapers
all over the world to protestfor climate change.
And so I thought to myself,well, I remember seeing that as
a kid, even before I rockclimbed.
It's obviously a good protest.
What if I stole his idea and Idid something similar for the
(05:41):
pro-life movement?
And so that's how I got mystart.
I went and I climbed theSalesforce Tower in San
Francisco, and we raised moneyto help a woman who is in crisis
pregnancy.
And so now, years later, I'veclimbed nine skyscrapers, and
we've been able to raiseprobably a million dollars to
help these women who are incrisis pregnancy.
Uh, and we said we saved a lotof babies, which has been good.
Brad (06:05):
So was you seeing the graphic nature of what abortion
does to its tiny victims thatreally motivated you to climb
those buildings?
Maison (06:13):
Yeah, because when you see the pictures, it becomes
real.
Whether you're pro-life oryou're pro-choice, you
understand what abortion is whenyou see those photos.
And our words there are soimportant.
We need to use radicalrhetoric.
We have to say abortion ismurder.
This is an abomination.
These vivid words, but at thesame time, those words can still
(06:37):
be twisted.
But when you see a picture ofthe victims of abortion, when
you see a dead baby, your eyescannot lie to your heart.
You know what that is.
You can lie to yourself and youcan harden your heart, but you
know deep down that's a babythat was murdered.
Brad (06:53):
The use of graphic imagery is somewhat controversial
within the pro-life movement.
Do you guys think that graphicimagery has a place in the
movement?
Sarah, let's start with you.
Sarah (07:06):
I was nominally pro-life.
Before I saw the picture, Iwould have told you I was
pro-life, but I was not in anyway active.
If someone had asked me, Iwould have probably given an
answer like, I'm pro-life, but Idon't judge other women.
Which is true as far as it goesand is still true.
I don't judge women who haveabortions.
I see them more as victims andof our society and of
pro-abortion propaganda, butit's kind of also an evasion.
(07:27):
I really was not vocal aboutbeing pro-life.
And it wasn't until I was inhigh school I saw a picture of
an aborted baby that completelytransformed my life.
I immediately went to thelibrary to do more research on
abortion.
This was before the internet,so it was not so easy to do
research.
And it was such a pivotalmoment in my life.
And I can't say for sure, Ireally do not know that if I had
(07:48):
never seen that picture, if Iwould have become an activist.
That was the catalyst that madeit concrete for me from an
abstract political belief orreligious belief to an actual
flesh and blood human beings aredying issue.
It set a fire in me that I'vekept that promise all my life to
be committed to fightingabortion.
So I definitely feel thosepictures have a place.
I think they may be mosteffective with people who are on
(08:11):
the fence or already nominallypro-life like I was, and like it
sounds like Mason was.
People who maybe need to becommitted, need to be shaken out
of their complacency, need tobe shown the reality.
I set up a website back in likethe early 2000s, and it's still
around, and it had pictures ofaborted babies on it.
It had pages that reached outto women considering abortions,
(08:31):
and it had a picture of thebaby.
It broke it down into differentstages, like 10 weeks, 11
weeks, 9 weeks.
Most of the pictures came fromthe Center for Bioethical
Reform.
I was using them and I gotpermission.
And it had a warning at the topsaying there are graphic
pictures here so that people hadthe opportunity to prepare
themselves.
And then it had a picture of ababy intact in the womb.
And then if you scroll down,you would see the pictures of
(08:53):
aborted babies, and then therewas a message to women
considering abortion or towhoever was reading, you know,
with some facts, statistics,field development information.
And then I had a survey.
And the survey said, if you'repro-choice, did seeing these
pictures change your mind?
And the three options were yes,no, and I have to think about
it more.
And I would say about one outof every four said yes.
And that's out of like hundredsof people seeing these pages a
(09:15):
day.
About one out of four said, Ihave to think about it a little
more, and the rest said no.
So it wasn't the majority thatwere converted on the spot, but
a sizable amount just fromseeing those pictures became
pro-life.
And I don't know what theirbeliefs were before that, but
that's a pretty striking thing.
And there were quite a fewpeople who saw it.
I really lucked out with theGoogle algorithm.
Back then, I knew nothing aboutsearch engine optimization or
(09:37):
how to get traffic from Google,absolutely nothing.
I mean, somehow I managed torank number one on Google above
Planned Parenthood.
Like you typed in abortion at Xweeks, and my site was the
first thing that came up.
I mean, miraculously.
So I got a lot ofabortion-minded women searching
for clinics, and I could tell bythe search terms they would
use.
It was like, what clinic willdo an abortion at 10 weeks in
New York?
(09:58):
Things like that.
So I knew there were peoplesearching for information on how
to get an abortion.
So I got a lot ofabortion-minded women.
And there were people who wroteright in the comments that they
had been planning on getting anabortion and changed their
mind.
And I had my email addressthere, and there were many other
women who wrote to me who werecontemplating abortion.
And me and a close friend,there were too many for me to
respond to alone.
So me and a close friend wouldwrite back and forth with those
(10:20):
women.
And I only know of about maybe30 that I know chose life, but
there were many others, and alot of the times they would stop
talking to me.
And but then nine, you know,then like six months later, I
would get a picture of theirbaby that they just that
happened so many times that Ireally think there are a lot of
them out of there that maybe diddecide on life, but never got
back to writing to the personthat they spoke to for a few
(10:41):
days.
That I mean, with all the newthings about having a baby,
that's not really your firstpriority.
So I think there were probablya lot more that didn't tell me,
but maybe were influenced.
Brad (10:51):
Mason, you uh made some comments about using uh graphic
imagery.
Is there anything you wanted toadd to that?
Maison (10:58):
Yeah, I feel like most of the movement has a sort of
false strategy, and they believein this idea of an overton
window.
And you know, overton windowswe really do see working in
terms of degradation, but interms of righteousness and
converting people torighteousness, when you read
scripture, rarely does it everhappen in this small,
(11:20):
disciplined manner.
It usually happens in thisgreat epiphany, right?
Like people are born again inChrist.
And, you know, I just see withthe pro-life movement, rarely do
we ever convert people slowlyand surely until they're these
radical pro-lifers.
It's usually all at once.
Like there was one time I wasgetting out of my car at the
grocery store.
This is in Nevada, and theywere petitioning for question
(11:44):
six, which legalized abortiontill the day of birth.
And this woman she stops me asI'm getting out of my car and
she says, Hi, sir, would you bewilling to sign my petition for
women's health care?
And I said to her, You just raninto the wrong guy.
And the Holy Spirit gave me thewords to speak, and I just
started preaching.
And I showed her a video fromthe Justice of the Five of them
(12:07):
um examining all of these bodiesof these little babies.
And this woman, she threw thepetitions in the trash and quit
her job and came to church.
And that is the level of changethat we see.
And so we can't be worriedabout, oh, what if this person's
feelings get hurt?
What if this person's feelingsget hurt?
Because people are offended bythe truth.
(12:30):
They're offended when they'reconfronted with their sin.
And we just need to be, youknow, the prophetic voices that
go out and are willing to offendif we have to.
And I do think that there is aplace and a time for victim
imagery.
However, I think more oftenthan not, I tend to use it just
because of its effectiveness.
Uh again, your eyes don't lieto your heart, and you see that
picture of that baby.
(12:50):
And for me in my life, it wastransformative.
There was no looking back.
I knew I had to do something.
Victor (12:55):
Mason, you mentioned that there's a time and a place
for the use of graphic imagery.
What are your thoughts on, forexample, publicly displaying the
images of abortion?
Maison (13:04):
Oh, I think it's great.
The only time I tend to not useit is sometimes when I'm door
knocking, what I found is if Imake a brochure and they open it
and there's just a dead babyright there, they'll close it
and throw it away.
And so, you know, again,there's a time and a place.
And we were doing this campaignagainst an abortion doctor in
Las Vegas who was a pedophile.
(13:24):
And so we were trying to turnthe neighbors against him.
And we had used a picture of adead baby.
And I think that's the onlytime that I've seen it work to
our detriment.
In other circumstances, uh likeshowing pictures in public
places, I think it's reallypowerful.
And people tend to be drawn toit rather than look away.
Even if they try to look away,they'll still peek their eyes
(13:46):
over it.
Gotta see it.
They have to make sense of it.
But yeah, we we go all the timeto college campuses with my
nonprofit anti-abortion front,and we'll hold signs on college
campuses and street corners,everywhere we can.
I mean, one of the activismthings I would like to do soon
is hang a giant 100-foot bannerof victim imagery on something
(14:07):
that is a secret.
But yeah, I really do believein it.
And most people aren't gonna goon Google, most people aren't
just gonna go and look into iton their own.
Like her website, right?
I'm sure a lot of those womenthought that they were trying to
find just information on how toget an abortion, and then they
end up seeing the pictures, andthat's a beautiful, awesome,
genius thing.
But most people aren't gonnalook up what does an abortion
look like and this and that.
(14:28):
And so we have to be the onesto show them.
Yeah, like her website is justabsolutely genius.
Victor (14:33):
Sarah, what are your thoughts on public displays of
graphic imagery?
Sarah (14:36):
I think college campuses are a good place to display
them.
There's people there who are atthe age when a lot of abortions
are done.
It's a place where there's lesslikely to be young children,
because I think it's good todisplay them in most cases.
I think even publicly.
But I do have some reservationsabout it, about children seeing
them.
I mean, it's good to have theseconversations even when someone
(14:57):
is relatively young, you know,before they get the a lot of the
pro-abortion propaganda thatpeople get when they're older.
So overall I support it, but Ido have some misgivings of it
being anywhere, like just aboutjust walking down the street.
I hate to say, I mean, I cansort of see both sides of it,
but I definitely support havingthem on college campuses because
that's an age where people arereally developing their values,
(15:17):
they're examining differenttypes of worldviews, different
issues.
Also in high schools, I thinkis a good place, maybe outside
high schools, because thatagain, that's a time when
they're still open to differentideas.
And I know that high school wasa very pivotal time for me when
I was forming my worldview andgrowing up and you know,
suddenly getting into the yearsof adulthood.
I was just leaving childhoodbehind.
And that's I think that's agood time to expose people to
(15:40):
information.
And also I kind of think ifsomeone's old enough to have an
abortion, they're old enough toknow about it.
So even if someone's 14 or 15,that's old enough to have an
abortion.
And if that's the age they arewhen they learn find out about
abortion and it's reality, Ithink that that's okay.
I err on the side of wanting toshow them, but I do have a few
reservations under certaincircumstances.
But I do think they definitelyhave their place.
Maison (16:02):
I don't have as much of a problem with children seeing
it.
Like obviously, we don't wantto go to kindergarten or sit
outside of a, you know, aplayground holding pictures of
dead babies.
But when you're in public andand children see the pictures,
yeah, we we do get a lot ofparents that are mad.
But I think the children are avery powerful tool because they
tend to lie to themselves less.
(16:24):
They know what it is that, youknow, not that this was a baby
killed by abortion, but that isa dead baby.
And a few weeks ago, I was atan abortion clinic and a woman
was walking in with one of herchildren, and he saw the
pictures, and he was looking atour pictures, and he kept
saying, Mom, mom, what happenedto that baby?
Why is that baby dead?
I watched her break down intears, and you could just see
(16:47):
the conviction in her eyes.
I don't think she ever cameback.
She was there for aconsultation.
But when a child says, Mom, whyis that baby dead?
They're confronted and they'reforced to face the truth.
And I was in Las Vegaselectioneering.
I was outside of the pollingbooth, and my sign was very
simple.
It had a picture of a dead babyon it, and it said, America's
(17:08):
Holocaust.
And there were lots of parentscoming in and out with their
children.
And I did have a couple whowere very angry at me for being
out there.
Uh, and I had to apologize.
But at the end of the day, I'mgonna be brutally honest, I'm
not really concerned about theparents' feelings.
I'm concerned about that unbornchild that will die if we don't
(17:29):
do something.
And we have to be strategic.
We don't want to make peopleangry at us to the point where
they start just working againstus because they're mad.
But these children's lives,they they can't be held hostage
by the feelings of an ungodlyworld.
We we have to be willing tooffend if it saves the unborn
(17:49):
life.
Brad (17:50):
My colleague, Dr.
Jack Wilkie, who co-foundedLife Issues Institute with me,
he and his wife, Barbara, whowas a nurse, they pioneered the
use of these graphic imagery.
They felt it was appropriatethat you, you know, present them
in a safe context and letpeople know that this imagery is
(18:10):
is coming up.
As a high school senior at 18,I got involved in the pro-life
movement and I use these graphicimagery.
And uh for many of us, I wouldsay probably millions, that has
motivated us into action becauseyou see the reality and the
carnage that is there.
(18:31):
And I think both Sarah andMason, you'd be interested to
know that while they were doinga on-campus presentation of
graphic imagery in Cincinnati,we did some on the spot research
and we uh asked women and menif they found this to be
effective.
And we were surprised.
We thought they'd be angry, butit really did make an impact in
(18:54):
the end.
So that's something that weneed to be aware of.
Sarah (18:57):
One thing that I do think though, and no one has
mentioned this, so I'll justthrow it out there, is it should
be accompanied with givenresources for post-abortion
abortive women.
I don't think we should notshow them because we don't want
to make it hard forpost-abortion women, but I think
we have to like engage with thefact that they may be upset by
it.
Because for all we know, thisis the first time this woman has
seen the results of anabortion.
(19:19):
She may have gone in to have anabortion with no knowledge of
fetal development at all.
They don't tell her in theclinics what the what the baby
is like or what the baby lookslike or what it can do.
And they may have no idea.
I mean, there are some statesthat require the ultrasound to
be shown or certain informationto be read, you know, which is
good.
But, you know, you can't expecta worker in an abortion
facility who's making money offof selling abortions to give
(19:40):
accurate fetal developmentinformation.
And this may really blindsidesome people who have had
abortions, or the fathers ofaborted babies, anyone who has
an abortion in their past.
So I think it would be good tohand out maybe information on
where to go for post-abortivesupport, or have some a hotline
number that's displayed orsomething like that alongside
(20:01):
these images, because we don'twant to leave people with that
despair and that sorrow withoutproviding them some kind of way
out.
And there are many Christiangroups that help with
post-abortion trauma, butthere's a few secular ones as
well.
And I think there should be,you know, just different
offerings for places people cango for support, maybe spanning a
range of what they'recomfortable with.
(20:22):
And but I think there should besomething because it can really
be difficult for people whomaybe don't have didn't have
that knowledge when they went into have abortions to suddenly
be confronted with it.
That can be extremely difficultfor them.
Brad (20:34):
Very well said.
And it's important to showcompassion from us that we do
not condemn those women and wewant to help them.
Maison (20:42):
I I think the most important thing is that we
accompany all of our work withthe gospel and going out and
preaching the gospel.
And I've said this to a lot ofpeople the only way to heal is
with the blood of Christ.
And if someone feels betterabout themselves, but they
haven't been forgiven by Jesus,then it's it's almost like this
false healing.
Victor (21:02):
Mason, one of the questions I have, you alluded to
this earlier, in that there's atime and a place.
What would you think would beexamples of times not to use
graphic images?
Maison (21:12):
There's stories of some crazy people going outside of
like kindergartens and trying tostage protests there.
And I'm like, okay, well,that's just kind of asking for
it.
But on my end, I mainly look atstrategy and what is the most
effective at that time.
And I found that's somethingwe're still learning and still
trying to figure out.
Like I said, I used the exampleof us door knocking, and we had
(21:34):
these pamphlets that had apicture of aborted babies on the
inside.
And the reason why it wasn't aseffective is because we didn't
necessarily need it because thedoctor was a pedophile, and so
we're trying to shut his clinicdown.
And tacking that on, it made alot of people close the
pamphlet.
And we wanted them to learnabout this doctor and who he
(21:55):
was.
Now, I understand where peoplewould say, okay, well, you know,
an issue they need to come toterms with, you know, they
shouldn't just be against himbeing a pedophile, they should
also be against him being achild killer.
But we can use strategy that isa tool that we are called to
use as Christians, and we're tobe wise as serpents.
And so I think that's somethingyou have to feel out for
yourself.
And every area is different,every bit of context should be
(22:18):
taken into account.
But more often than not, I tendto share the pictures, and
there will just be some peoplethat get angry no matter what.
But the majority of people thatare angry at you, they're not
so much angry with what you'redoing or how you're doing.
It's always what.
It's not how, it's usuallywhat.
They're just mad that you know,you're a Christian, you're a
pro-lifer, you're calling outsin, and they don't like that.
Sarah (22:41):
I want to agree with Mason here that people are gonna
get mad no matter what.
I recently saw an article inLife News.
I'm not sure if anyone else sawit.
I believe it was Life News.
There was this billboard thatshowed a black family, a father,
a mother, and a child.
And the words, I forget theactual words, I think it was
like choose life or something,or life is beautiful, and it was
Biop for Life Group.
(23:02):
And a woman wrote to the peoplewho did the billboard campaign
saying it was so offensive andshe couldn't believe how
horrible it was, and uh it wasracist.
And I don't know what herreasoning was for that, but she
was like going on and on abouthow offensive it was and how it
would force people to talk totheir children about abortion,
and it didn't even have the wordabortion in it.
It was a picture of this reallysweet family, just with the
(23:24):
words life is beautiful orchoose life or something like
that.
I wish I could rememberexactly.
So if something as simple asthat will offend someone,
there's only so much you can doto avoid offending people.
Some people are just offendedby the message in general.
And I think tiptoeing oneggshells to avoid offending
people is kind of an exercise infutility.
So I want to agree with Masonabout that.
You know, it seems like justabout anything you can do that's
(23:46):
connected to pro-life willoffend someone.
So I just wanted to add that.
And this is something I'veheard and I do not have any
personal experience with it.
I've never had the opportunityto sidewalk counsel in person.
I wish I did.
Fortuitously, I have never hadan abortion facility close to
where I live, which of course isa good thing.
And I don't have access to alot of transportation where I
live, so I haven't been able totravel to one that's a few hours
(24:08):
away.
But I have heard from somepeople who do a lot of sidewalk
counseling that it's better touse pictures of intact babies
outside abortion facilities.
I think Mason may disagree withme and he may have had success
with the aborted baby photos.
So I'm only saying this isbecause of what I've heard, but
like it can kind of drive peopleinto the clinic because they
see it and they recoil.
(24:29):
They associate the people usingit with like, you know,
negative things because it's anegative image and they want to
be somewhere safe or what seemssafe.
Obviously, the clinics are farfrom safe for them, and they're
definitely not safe for theirbabies, but they perceive it as
like an escape.
I don't know if that's true,but I've heard people who work
with sidewalk advocates, I thinkit's called say that.
So I can see how maybe picturesof babies at different stages
(24:51):
of fetal development showingtheir humanity, but not
necessarily the graphic onesmight be better there.
I think there's somesituations, I think the pictures
of intact babies are also verypowerful and should be used
widely as widely as possible.
Maison (25:04):
I'll tell you my view on that.
Um, I've had a lot ofexperience sidewalk counseling.
And the biggest thing aboutsidewalk counseling is it's
different for everybody becausea lot of it is about first
impressions.
When they look at you, do theytrust you?
And the most effective sidewalkcounselors are older black men,
hands down.
(25:24):
I don't know what it is, butwomen trust older black men.
It's just you'll come up andtalk to them, easy.
Like I could sit out there, beas nice as I want.
They would rather go talk tothat guy.
And I'm sure that in someplaces, different clinics, I
don't think a sign of a livebaby does all that much.
Maybe it does.
(25:45):
I don't know.
I'm positive that there arecertain times that perhaps
victim imagery would be a badthing.
And if it's not working, youshould try a different avenue
because we want to save thosebabies.
But one of the most successfulpregnancy centers I have ever
seen in my entire life is in LasVegas, Nevada.
(26:05):
It's called First ChoicePregnancy Center.
And if anybody's ever in LasVegas, tell them I sent you and
ask for Deb and they will giveyou a tour.
They pride themselves on usingvictim imagery, and they do a
really, really good job.
So many women were going inthere because they seen the
pictures of the babies and theydecided not to get their
abortions.
(26:26):
Uh that it is a beautifulthing.
But again, like it's all aboutfirst impressions, and so I
wouldn't say, like, in case ofsidewalk counseling, that it is
a must, but I use it personally,and I do think it helps.
I think the babies that I havesaved mostly have been because
of it.
But there are cases where Idecided to leave it home.
So it's a case by case insidewalk counseling.
Brad (26:45):
Well, thank you both.
Uh, we're running out of time,unfortunately, but um, you've
all imparted wisdom andexperience that I'm sure our
listeners are going toappreciate.
So, Sarah and Mason, thanks forjoining us today.
Sarah (26:59):
Thank you for having us.
Brad (27:00):
Thank you so much for having me.
Victor (27:11):
Well, Brad, I think that we've highlighted a really
important conversation heretoday.
And to get the perspectives ofMason and Sarah, you know, no
matter how hard somebody triesto defend abortion, I just can't
imagine that there's manypeople out there who could look
at the images of a butcheredbaby and still defend abortion.
Brad (27:32):
Well, I think one, because it was graphic imagery that got
me involved in it, you know, 50years ago.
But something has always stuckwith me is that people who get
angry at the pictures need toget angry at what caused those
pictures.
They need to get angry atabortion and its brutality that
(27:54):
victimizes children andfrequently victimizes the
mothers and fathers.
Victor (27:59):
Well, that's such a good point, Brad, to have the
priorities be backwards forsomebody to be mad at the image
and not what caused the image.
I couldn't have said it better.
We need to be mad at the causeof what is happening to those
babies.
And to you, our listener, Iwant to recommend that you go to
our website, lifeissues.org.
There you'll find moreinformation, resources, and
(28:19):
tools that you can share withyour friends, family members,
and your church community sothat you can join us.
And together we can create aculture of life and defend
babies all across the country.
Again, those resources areavailable to you free on our
website, lifeissues.org.
When you see the pictures, it becomes real.
What abortion is.
When you see a picture of thevictims of abortion, when you
see a dead baby, your eyescannot lie to your heart.
Victor (00:19):
Welcome back to Straight Talk on Life Issues.
I'm Victor Nievis.
As always, joined by BradMattis, president of Life Issues
Institute.
Today we'll be having a veryimportant conversation
discussing whether or notgraphic images of abortion's
tiny victims should be used as apro-life tool.
Brad (00:36):
Well, Victor, while almost everyone thinks that people
should have the right to usethese graphic imagery of tiny
victims, many people, includingpro-life advocates, are divided
on whether it's appropriate todo so.
Victor (00:50):
And these graphic images are admittedly horrific to
view, but they're sometimesquite necessary.
Brad (00:57):
There's a time and place for using such imagery as a
pro-life tool.
Seeing those images reminds methat I'm fighting so hard, and
it also tells me how gruesome,violent, and evil abortion
really is.
Victor (01:12):
Let's jump right in today with our guests.
First joining us is SarahTerzo, a pro-life journalist and
blogger who's written over athousand articles on the topic
of abortion.
Her work has been featured byoutlets like live action news,
life news, national right tolife, and many more.
We're also joined by MasonDeschamps.
He's a 25-year-old freeclimber.
You may know him as Pro-LifeSpider-Man.
(01:34):
He climbs the exterior ofbuildings with one thought in
mind, saving the life of anunborn child.
Mason and Sarah, welcome to theshow.
Sarah (01:42):
Thank you.
Victor (01:42):
Thank you.
Brad (01:54):
Let's start with you, Mason.
In Victor's introduction ofyou, he mentioned uh Pro-Life
Spider-Man.
So I'm sure that there arelisteners listening to the
program who may not be aware ofthe uh curious little thing that
you are doing to advocate forlife.
It's so far out of the box.
It just gives me a chill up myspine as I think of your parents
(02:18):
watching that and seeingpictures.
So give us a brief descriptionof what you do as pro-life
Spider-Man.
Maison (02:24):
Yeah, so a few years ago, I was 22 years old and I
was a rock climber.
That's what I did.
When I was 16, my whole familymoved from a small little farm
town in Michigan out to LosAngeles, California.
And for me, it was such aculture shock that the first
thing I wanted to do was toleave.
So when I turned 18, I threweverything into my car and I
(02:44):
skipped my graduation and I leftto Yosemite National Park.
And that was where I reallystarted to rock climb.
And pretty quickly, justbecause of the competitive
nature of Yosemite, I got good.
And I started climbing with allof these professional climbers.
But for people who don'tunderstand climbing, how I try
to explain it to them is that tobe good at it, you have to be a
(03:08):
slave to it.
It has to consume your life.
And so I was literally, I wassleeping in the boulders up
there and living out of my car.
And every morning I would justwake up and go rock climbing for
food.
And this is a common thing inYosemite, is we we'd go to the
pizza deck and we would justwait.
And there's gonna be like acrowd of like five, six climbers
(03:28):
just waiting for somebody toget up and leave half their
pizza, and then you you go andyou eat the rest, and that's how
you survive.
But you get to climb every day,and so that was my life.
You know, I'm gonna be honest,it was a bit vain.
I tell people climbing isprobably the most useless
activity, it doesn't benefitanybody.
You're not producing anythingfor society.
It's fun, but man, is it awaste of time?
(03:50):
And so that's where I was in mylife, and I loved it.
I had no desire to ever leaveit.
And then I was on my phone oneday and I seen this picture, and
it was a picture of a baby.
And normally when you seepictures of babies, they've got
cute little bows on their headand they're smiling.
But this one sat in a ziploccontainer with a smash skull and
(04:11):
one eye left open.
And it was at that moment myheart was just entirely
convicted.
And I started researching,okay, where did this baby come
from?
And this was a baby that waskilled by abortion in
Washington, D.C., in an eventthat's known as the Justice for
the Five.
And so some friends of minewere outside of the clinic when
a medical waste truck driverpulled up, and this guy ended up
(04:34):
giving them one of these boxesof dead babies to give them a
burial.
And they opened it up, andinside there was 115 murdered
babies, five of which werealmost nine months ready to be
born.
And so I saw this and I justknew I wanted to do something.
How could I say that I waspro-life and not realize what it
(04:57):
meant, right?
Because you don't reallyunderstand what you're saying
until you see it.
Until you see it, it's justthis political idea like taxes
and social security or whatever.
But when you see it, youunderstand that this isn't
politics, this is a Holocaust.
And so my whole life wastransformed.
And I thought to myself, whatcould I do?
I'm broke, no influence, whatcould I do?
(05:18):
And I thought back to this guy,his name was Alain Robert.
He was a professional climber.
And back in the 90s and the2000s, he climbed skyscrapers
all over the world to protestfor climate change.
And so I thought to myself,well, I remember seeing that as
a kid, even before I rockclimbed.
It's obviously a good protest.
What if I stole his idea and Idid something similar for the
(05:41):
pro-life movement?
And so that's how I got mystart.
I went and I climbed theSalesforce Tower in San
Francisco, and we raised moneyto help a woman who is in crisis
pregnancy.
And so now, years later, I'veclimbed nine skyscrapers, and
we've been able to raiseprobably a million dollars to
help these women who are incrisis pregnancy.
Uh, and we said we saved a lotof babies, which has been good.
Brad (06:05):
So was you seeing the graphic nature of what abortion
does to its tiny victims thatreally motivated you to climb
those buildings?
Maison (06:13):
Yeah, because when you see the pictures, it becomes
real.
Whether you're pro-life oryou're pro-choice, you
understand what abortion is whenyou see those photos.
And our words there are soimportant.
We need to use radicalrhetoric.
We have to say abortion ismurder.
This is an abomination.
These vivid words, but at thesame time, those words can still
(06:37):
be twisted.
But when you see a picture ofthe victims of abortion, when
you see a dead baby, your eyescannot lie to your heart.
You know what that is.
You can lie to yourself and youcan harden your heart, but you
know deep down that's a babythat was murdered.
Brad (06:53):
The use of graphic imagery is somewhat controversial
within the pro-life movement.
Do you guys think that graphicimagery has a place in the
movement?
Sarah, let's start with you.
Sarah (07:06):
I was nominally pro-life.
Before I saw the picture, Iwould have told you I was
pro-life, but I was not in anyway active.
If someone had asked me, Iwould have probably given an
answer like, I'm pro-life, but Idon't judge other women.
Which is true as far as it goesand is still true.
I don't judge women who haveabortions.
I see them more as victims andof our society and of
pro-abortion propaganda, butit's kind of also an evasion.
(07:27):
I really was not vocal aboutbeing pro-life.
And it wasn't until I was inhigh school I saw a picture of
an aborted baby that completelytransformed my life.
I immediately went to thelibrary to do more research on
abortion.
This was before the internet,so it was not so easy to do
research.
And it was such a pivotalmoment in my life.
And I can't say for sure, Ireally do not know that if I had
(07:48):
never seen that picture, if Iwould have become an activist.
That was the catalyst that madeit concrete for me from an
abstract political belief orreligious belief to an actual
flesh and blood human beings aredying issue.
It set a fire in me that I'vekept that promise all my life to
be committed to fightingabortion.
So I definitely feel thosepictures have a place.
I think they may be mosteffective with people who are on
(08:11):
the fence or already nominallypro-life like I was, and like it
sounds like Mason was.
People who maybe need to becommitted, need to be shaken out
of their complacency, need tobe shown the reality.
I set up a website back in likethe early 2000s, and it's still
around, and it had pictures ofaborted babies on it.
It had pages that reached outto women considering abortions,
(08:31):
and it had a picture of thebaby.
It broke it down into differentstages, like 10 weeks, 11
weeks, 9 weeks.
Most of the pictures came fromthe Center for Bioethical
Reform.
I was using them and I gotpermission.
And it had a warning at the topsaying there are graphic
pictures here so that people hadthe opportunity to prepare
themselves.
And then it had a picture of ababy intact in the womb.
And then if you scroll down,you would see the pictures of
(08:53):
aborted babies, and then therewas a message to women
considering abortion or towhoever was reading, you know,
with some facts, statistics,field development information.
And then I had a survey.
And the survey said, if you'repro-choice, did seeing these
pictures change your mind?
And the three options were yes,no, and I have to think about
it more.
And I would say about one outof every four said yes.
And that's out of like hundredsof people seeing these pages a
(09:15):
day.
About one out of four said, Ihave to think about it a little
more, and the rest said no.
So it wasn't the majority thatwere converted on the spot, but
a sizable amount just fromseeing those pictures became
pro-life.
And I don't know what theirbeliefs were before that, but
that's a pretty striking thing.
And there were quite a fewpeople who saw it.
I really lucked out with theGoogle algorithm.
Back then, I knew nothing aboutsearch engine optimization or
(09:37):
how to get traffic from Google,absolutely nothing.
I mean, somehow I managed torank number one on Google above
Planned Parenthood.
Like you typed in abortion at Xweeks, and my site was the
first thing that came up.
I mean, miraculously.
So I got a lot ofabortion-minded women searching
for clinics, and I could tell bythe search terms they would
use.
It was like, what clinic willdo an abortion at 10 weeks in
New York?
(09:58):
Things like that.
So I knew there were peoplesearching for information on how
to get an abortion.
So I got a lot ofabortion-minded women.
And there were people who wroteright in the comments that they
had been planning on getting anabortion and changed their
mind.
And I had my email addressthere, and there were many other
women who wrote to me who werecontemplating abortion.
And me and a close friend,there were too many for me to
respond to alone.
So me and a close friend wouldwrite back and forth with those
(10:20):
women.
And I only know of about maybe30 that I know chose life, but
there were many others, and alot of the times they would stop
talking to me.
And but then nine, you know,then like six months later, I
would get a picture of theirbaby that they just that
happened so many times that Ireally think there are a lot of
them out of there that maybe diddecide on life, but never got
back to writing to the personthat they spoke to for a few
(10:41):
days.
That I mean, with all the newthings about having a baby,
that's not really your firstpriority.
So I think there were probablya lot more that didn't tell me,
but maybe were influenced.
Brad (10:51):
Mason, you uh made some comments about using uh graphic
imagery.
Is there anything you wanted toadd to that?
Maison (10:58):
Yeah, I feel like most of the movement has a sort of
false strategy, and they believein this idea of an overton
window.
And you know, overton windowswe really do see working in
terms of degradation, but interms of righteousness and
converting people torighteousness, when you read
scripture, rarely does it everhappen in this small,
(11:20):
disciplined manner.
It usually happens in thisgreat epiphany, right?
Like people are born again inChrist.
And, you know, I just see withthe pro-life movement, rarely do
we ever convert people slowlyand surely until they're these
radical pro-lifers.
It's usually all at once.
Like there was one time I wasgetting out of my car at the
grocery store.
This is in Nevada, and theywere petitioning for question
(11:44):
six, which legalized abortiontill the day of birth.
And this woman she stops me asI'm getting out of my car and
she says, Hi, sir, would you bewilling to sign my petition for
women's health care?
And I said to her, You just raninto the wrong guy.
And the Holy Spirit gave me thewords to speak, and I just
started preaching.
And I showed her a video fromthe Justice of the Five of them
(12:07):
um examining all of these bodiesof these little babies.
And this woman, she threw thepetitions in the trash and quit
her job and came to church.
And that is the level of changethat we see.
And so we can't be worriedabout, oh, what if this person's
feelings get hurt?
What if this person's feelingsget hurt?
Because people are offended bythe truth.
(12:30):
They're offended when they'reconfronted with their sin.
And we just need to be, youknow, the prophetic voices that
go out and are willing to offendif we have to.
And I do think that there is aplace and a time for victim
imagery.
However, I think more oftenthan not, I tend to use it just
because of its effectiveness.
Uh again, your eyes don't lieto your heart, and you see that
picture of that baby.
(12:50):
And for me in my life, it wastransformative.
There was no looking back.
I knew I had to do something.
Victor (12:55):
Mason, you mentioned that there's a time and a place
for the use of graphic imagery.
What are your thoughts on, forexample, publicly displaying the
images of abortion?
Maison (13:04):
Oh, I think it's great.
The only time I tend to not useit is sometimes when I'm door
knocking, what I found is if Imake a brochure and they open it
and there's just a dead babyright there, they'll close it
and throw it away.
And so, you know, again,there's a time and a place.
And we were doing this campaignagainst an abortion doctor in
Las Vegas who was a pedophile.
(13:24):
And so we were trying to turnthe neighbors against him.
And we had used a picture of adead baby.
And I think that's the onlytime that I've seen it work to
our detriment.
In other circumstances, uh likeshowing pictures in public
places, I think it's reallypowerful.
And people tend to be drawn toit rather than look away.
Even if they try to look away,they'll still peek their eyes
(13:46):
over it.
Gotta see it.
They have to make sense of it.
But yeah, we we go all the timeto college campuses with my
nonprofit anti-abortion front,and we'll hold signs on college
campuses and street corners,everywhere we can.
I mean, one of the activismthings I would like to do soon
is hang a giant 100-foot bannerof victim imagery on something
(14:07):
that is a secret.
But yeah, I really do believein it.
And most people aren't gonna goon Google, most people aren't
just gonna go and look into iton their own.
Like her website, right?
I'm sure a lot of those womenthought that they were trying to
find just information on how toget an abortion, and then they
end up seeing the pictures, andthat's a beautiful, awesome,
genius thing.
But most people aren't gonnalook up what does an abortion
look like and this and that.
(14:28):
And so we have to be the onesto show them.
Yeah, like her website is justabsolutely genius.
Victor (14:33):
Sarah, what are your thoughts on public displays of
graphic imagery?
Sarah (14:36):
I think college campuses are a good place to display
them.
There's people there who are atthe age when a lot of abortions
are done.
It's a place where there's lesslikely to be young children,
because I think it's good todisplay them in most cases.
I think even publicly.
But I do have some reservationsabout it, about children seeing
them.
I mean, it's good to have theseconversations even when someone
(14:57):
is relatively young, you know,before they get the a lot of the
pro-abortion propaganda thatpeople get when they're older.
So overall I support it, but Ido have some misgivings of it
being anywhere, like just aboutjust walking down the street.
I hate to say, I mean, I cansort of see both sides of it,
but I definitely support havingthem on college campuses because
that's an age where people arereally developing their values,
(15:17):
they're examining differenttypes of worldviews, different
issues.
Also in high schools, I thinkis a good place, maybe outside
high schools, because thatagain, that's a time when
they're still open to differentideas.
And I know that high school wasa very pivotal time for me when
I was forming my worldview andgrowing up and you know,
suddenly getting into the yearsof adulthood.
I was just leaving childhoodbehind.
And that's I think that's agood time to expose people to
(15:40):
information.
And also I kind of think ifsomeone's old enough to have an
abortion, they're old enough toknow about it.
So even if someone's 14 or 15,that's old enough to have an
abortion.
And if that's the age they arewhen they learn find out about
abortion and it's reality, Ithink that that's okay.
I err on the side of wanting toshow them, but I do have a few
reservations under certaincircumstances.
But I do think they definitelyhave their place.
Maison (16:02):
I don't have as much of a problem with children seeing
it.
Like obviously, we don't wantto go to kindergarten or sit
outside of a, you know, aplayground holding pictures of
dead babies.
But when you're in public andand children see the pictures,
yeah, we we do get a lot ofparents that are mad.
But I think the children are avery powerful tool because they
tend to lie to themselves less.
(16:24):
They know what it is that, youknow, not that this was a baby
killed by abortion, but that isa dead baby.
And a few weeks ago, I was atan abortion clinic and a woman
was walking in with one of herchildren, and he saw the
pictures, and he was looking atour pictures, and he kept
saying, Mom, mom, what happenedto that baby?
Why is that baby dead?
I watched her break down intears, and you could just see
(16:47):
the conviction in her eyes.
I don't think she ever cameback.
She was there for aconsultation.
But when a child says, Mom, whyis that baby dead?
They're confronted and they'reforced to face the truth.
And I was in Las Vegaselectioneering.
I was outside of the pollingbooth, and my sign was very
simple.
It had a picture of a dead babyon it, and it said, America's
(17:08):
Holocaust.
And there were lots of parentscoming in and out with their
children.
And I did have a couple whowere very angry at me for being
out there.
Uh, and I had to apologize.
But at the end of the day, I'mgonna be brutally honest, I'm
not really concerned about theparents' feelings.
I'm concerned about that unbornchild that will die if we don't
(17:29):
do something.
And we have to be strategic.
We don't want to make peopleangry at us to the point where
they start just working againstus because they're mad.
But these children's lives,they they can't be held hostage
by the feelings of an ungodlyworld.
We we have to be willing tooffend if it saves the unborn
(17:49):
life.
Brad (17:50):
My colleague, Dr.
Jack Wilkie, who co-foundedLife Issues Institute with me,
he and his wife, Barbara, whowas a nurse, they pioneered the
use of these graphic imagery.
They felt it was appropriatethat you, you know, present them
in a safe context and letpeople know that this imagery is
(18:10):
is coming up.
As a high school senior at 18,I got involved in the pro-life
movement and I use these graphicimagery.
And uh for many of us, I wouldsay probably millions, that has
motivated us into action becauseyou see the reality and the
carnage that is there.
(18:31):
And I think both Sarah andMason, you'd be interested to
know that while they were doinga on-campus presentation of
graphic imagery in Cincinnati,we did some on the spot research
and we uh asked women and menif they found this to be
effective.
And we were surprised.
We thought they'd be angry, butit really did make an impact in
(18:54):
the end.
So that's something that weneed to be aware of.
Sarah (18:57):
One thing that I do think though, and no one has
mentioned this, so I'll justthrow it out there, is it should
be accompanied with givenresources for post-abortion
abortive women.
I don't think we should notshow them because we don't want
to make it hard forpost-abortion women, but I think
we have to like engage with thefact that they may be upset by
it.
Because for all we know, thisis the first time this woman has
seen the results of anabortion.
(19:19):
She may have gone in to have anabortion with no knowledge of
fetal development at all.
They don't tell her in theclinics what the what the baby
is like or what the baby lookslike or what it can do.
And they may have no idea.
I mean, there are some statesthat require the ultrasound to
be shown or certain informationto be read, you know, which is
good.
But, you know, you can't expecta worker in an abortion
facility who's making money offof selling abortions to give
(19:40):
accurate fetal developmentinformation.
And this may really blindsidesome people who have had
abortions, or the fathers ofaborted babies, anyone who has
an abortion in their past.
So I think it would be good tohand out maybe information on
where to go for post-abortivesupport, or have some a hotline
number that's displayed orsomething like that alongside
(20:01):
these images, because we don'twant to leave people with that
despair and that sorrow withoutproviding them some kind of way
out.
And there are many Christiangroups that help with
post-abortion trauma, butthere's a few secular ones as
well.
And I think there should be,you know, just different
offerings for places people cango for support, maybe spanning a
range of what they'recomfortable with.
(20:22):
And but I think there should besomething because it can really
be difficult for people whomaybe don't have didn't have
that knowledge when they went into have abortions to suddenly
be confronted with it.
That can be extremely difficultfor them.
Brad (20:34):
Very well said.
And it's important to showcompassion from us that we do
not condemn those women and wewant to help them.
Maison (20:42):
I I think the most important thing is that we
accompany all of our work withthe gospel and going out and
preaching the gospel.
And I've said this to a lot ofpeople the only way to heal is
with the blood of Christ.
And if someone feels betterabout themselves, but they
haven't been forgiven by Jesus,then it's it's almost like this
false healing.
Victor (21:02):
Mason, one of the questions I have, you alluded to
this earlier, in that there's atime and a place.
What would you think would beexamples of times not to use
graphic images?
Maison (21:12):
There's stories of some crazy people going outside of
like kindergartens and trying tostage protests there.
And I'm like, okay, well,that's just kind of asking for
it.
But on my end, I mainly look atstrategy and what is the most
effective at that time.
And I found that's somethingwe're still learning and still
trying to figure out.
Like I said, I used the exampleof us door knocking, and we had
(21:34):
these pamphlets that had apicture of aborted babies on the
inside.
And the reason why it wasn't aseffective is because we didn't
necessarily need it because thedoctor was a pedophile, and so
we're trying to shut his clinicdown.
And tacking that on, it made alot of people close the
pamphlet.
And we wanted them to learnabout this doctor and who he
(21:55):
was.
Now, I understand where peoplewould say, okay, well, you know,
an issue they need to come toterms with, you know, they
shouldn't just be against himbeing a pedophile, they should
also be against him being achild killer.
But we can use strategy that isa tool that we are called to
use as Christians, and we're tobe wise as serpents.
And so I think that's somethingyou have to feel out for
yourself.
And every area is different,every bit of context should be
(22:18):
taken into account.
But more often than not, I tendto share the pictures, and
there will just be some peoplethat get angry no matter what.
But the majority of people thatare angry at you, they're not
so much angry with what you'redoing or how you're doing.
It's always what.
It's not how, it's usuallywhat.
They're just mad that you know,you're a Christian, you're a
pro-lifer, you're calling outsin, and they don't like that.
Sarah (22:41):
I want to agree with Mason here that people are gonna
get mad no matter what.
I recently saw an article inLife News.
I'm not sure if anyone else sawit.
I believe it was Life News.
There was this billboard thatshowed a black family, a father,
a mother, and a child.
And the words, I forget theactual words, I think it was
like choose life or something,or life is beautiful, and it was
Biop for Life Group.
(23:02):
And a woman wrote to the peoplewho did the billboard campaign
saying it was so offensive andshe couldn't believe how
horrible it was, and uh it wasracist.
And I don't know what herreasoning was for that, but she
was like going on and on abouthow offensive it was and how it
would force people to talk totheir children about abortion,
and it didn't even have the wordabortion in it.
It was a picture of this reallysweet family, just with the
(23:24):
words life is beautiful orchoose life or something like
that.
I wish I could rememberexactly.
So if something as simple asthat will offend someone,
there's only so much you can doto avoid offending people.
Some people are just offendedby the message in general.
And I think tiptoeing oneggshells to avoid offending
people is kind of an exercise infutility.
So I want to agree with Masonabout that.
You know, it seems like justabout anything you can do that's
(23:46):
connected to pro-life willoffend someone.
So I just wanted to add that.
And this is something I'veheard and I do not have any
personal experience with it.
I've never had the opportunityto sidewalk counsel in person.
I wish I did.
Fortuitously, I have never hadan abortion facility close to
where I live, which of course isa good thing.
And I don't have access to alot of transportation where I
live, so I haven't been able totravel to one that's a few hours
(24:08):
away.
But I have heard from somepeople who do a lot of sidewalk
counseling that it's better touse pictures of intact babies
outside abortion facilities.
I think Mason may disagree withme and he may have had success
with the aborted baby photos.
So I'm only saying this isbecause of what I've heard, but
like it can kind of drive peopleinto the clinic because they
see it and they recoil.
(24:29):
They associate the people usingit with like, you know,
negative things because it's anegative image and they want to
be somewhere safe or what seemssafe.
Obviously, the clinics are farfrom safe for them, and they're
definitely not safe for theirbabies, but they perceive it as
like an escape.
I don't know if that's true,but I've heard people who work
with sidewalk advocates, I thinkit's called say that.
So I can see how maybe picturesof babies at different stages
(24:51):
of fetal development showingtheir humanity, but not
necessarily the graphic onesmight be better there.
I think there's somesituations, I think the pictures
of intact babies are also verypowerful and should be used
widely as widely as possible.
Maison (25:04):
I'll tell you my view on that.
Um, I've had a lot ofexperience sidewalk counseling.
And the biggest thing aboutsidewalk counseling is it's
different for everybody becausea lot of it is about first
impressions.
When they look at you, do theytrust you?
And the most effective sidewalkcounselors are older black men,
hands down.
(25:24):
I don't know what it is, butwomen trust older black men.
It's just you'll come up andtalk to them, easy.
Like I could sit out there, beas nice as I want.
They would rather go talk tothat guy.
And I'm sure that in someplaces, different clinics, I
don't think a sign of a livebaby does all that much.
Maybe it does.
(25:45):
I don't know.
I'm positive that there arecertain times that perhaps
victim imagery would be a badthing.
And if it's not working, youshould try a different avenue
because we want to save thosebabies.
But one of the most successfulpregnancy centers I have ever
seen in my entire life is in LasVegas, Nevada.
(26:05):
It's called First ChoicePregnancy Center.
And if anybody's ever in LasVegas, tell them I sent you and
ask for Deb and they will giveyou a tour.
They pride themselves on usingvictim imagery, and they do a
really, really good job.
So many women were going inthere because they seen the
pictures of the babies and theydecided not to get their
abortions.
(26:26):
Uh that it is a beautifulthing.
But again, like it's all aboutfirst impressions, and so I
wouldn't say, like, in case ofsidewalk counseling, that it is
a must, but I use it personally,and I do think it helps.
I think the babies that I havesaved mostly have been because
of it.
But there are cases where Idecided to leave it home.
So it's a case by case insidewalk counseling.
Brad (26:45):
Well, thank you both.
Uh, we're running out of time,unfortunately, but um, you've
all imparted wisdom andexperience that I'm sure our
listeners are going toappreciate.
So, Sarah and Mason, thanks forjoining us today.
Sarah (26:59):
Thank you for having us.
Brad (27:00):
Thank you so much for having me.
Victor (27:11):
Well, Brad, I think that we've highlighted a really
important conversation heretoday.
And to get the perspectives ofMason and Sarah, you know, no
matter how hard somebody triesto defend abortion, I just can't
imagine that there's manypeople out there who could look
at the images of a butcheredbaby and still defend abortion.
Brad (27:32):
Well, I think one, because it was graphic imagery that got
me involved in it, you know, 50years ago.
But something has always stuckwith me is that people who get
angry at the pictures need toget angry at what caused those
pictures.
They need to get angry atabortion and its brutality that
(27:54):
victimizes children andfrequently victimizes the
mothers and fathers.
Victor (27:59):
Well, that's such a good point, Brad, to have the
priorities be backwards forsomebody to be mad at the image
and not what caused the image.
I couldn't have said it better.
We need to be mad at the causeof what is happening to those
babies.
And to you, our listener, Iwant to recommend that you go to
our website, lifeissues.org.
There you'll find moreinformation, resources, and
(28:19):
tools that you can share withyour friends, family members,
and your church community sothat you can join us.
And together we can create aculture of life and defend
babies all across the country.
Again, those resources areavailable to you free on our
website, lifeissues.org.
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