August 2, 2024 • 43 mins
Join me for an eye-opening discussion with the Minister for Foreign Affairs and National Security of the East Turkistan Government in Exile, Salih Hudayar, a Uyghur activist and leader of the East Turkistan National Movement.Tune into this eye-opening interview to:
This is Strategic Wisdom with Andrew Jose. I’m Andrew Jose, a Washington, DC-based security policy analyst and news reporter, bringing you timely analyses and commentary on issues in international relations, war, and security policy.
The views expressed by the podcast guests are their own and do not necessarily represent the official positions of Andrew Jose, Strategic Wisdom with Andrew Jose, and Andrew Jose Media.
Strategic Wisdom with Andrew Jose is an initiative of Andrew Jose Media.
- Discover the story of East Turkistan and the Uyghur nation's fight for independence against China.
- Dive deep into the historical roots of the Uyghur ethnocide carried out by the Chinese state against Turkic ethnics in the area it calls "Xinjiang."
- Understand how the East Turkistan Government in Exile differs from the World Uyghur Congress’s approach to the ethnocide of Uyghurs and other Turkic people in East Turkistan (“Xinjiang”).
- Comprehend how Chinese, specifically Han-ethnic-supremacy, not Communism alone, is the driving factor behind the Chinese attacks on Uyghur and other Turkic peoples in East Turkistan—something evident in the passive and active racist approach many ethnic Chinese anti-CCP and pro-democracy activists have towards Uyghurs and Turkic peoples hailing from occupied East Turkistan.
This is Strategic Wisdom with Andrew Jose. I’m Andrew Jose, a Washington, DC-based security policy analyst and news reporter, bringing you timely analyses and commentary on issues in international relations, war, and security policy.
The views expressed by the podcast guests are their own and do not necessarily represent the official positions of Andrew Jose, Strategic Wisdom with Andrew Jose, and Andrew Jose Media.
Strategic Wisdom with Andrew Jose is an initiative of Andrew Jose Media.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to another episode of Strategic Wisdom with Andrew Jose,
an international relations and current affairs podcast brought to you
by Andrew Jose, a Washington, DC based security policy analyst
and news reporter.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Were your presenters, Gabrielle Sapchak and.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Ian Stormfelt Thank you for tuning into this show.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
As early as twenty seventeen, reports surfaced alleging that the
People's Republic of China was detaining large numbers of Weikers, Kazakhs,
and other non Chinese ethnic groups in the province of Xinjong.
Several human rights groups, including Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch,
accused China of running concentration camps to ethnically cleansed Turkic
groups in the region.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
The revelation of more horrors in the coming months and
years drew public attention to the plight of the Wiga
people and their struggle for self determination against hand dominated China.
Contrary to Chinese claims, Xinjong was not always Chinese territory.
The land was long populated by Turkic groups. In fact,
the name Xinjiang, which means new Frontier, betrays the fact
(00:59):
that China annexed the territory only in the eighteenth century.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Fast forward as early as the early and mid twentieth century,
the Turkic groups in the region declared independence for East Turkestan,
only to be crushed by Chinese forces in a process
of cynicization that continues today as China attempts to remove
the East Turkistani from the Weiker, Kazakh and other Turkic
peoples who live in the region.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
Joining Andrew Jose today is Sally Judia, Minister for Foreign
Affairs and National Security of the East Turkistan Government in Exile.
Andrew and Foreign Minister Judio will discuss the history, background,
internal politics and long term visions shared among Wika and
East Turkistani diaspora groups for the emancipation and independence of
their homeland East Turkistan.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
Without further ado, we are going to hand the floor
over to Andrew Jose.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
Solid Daiar is the leader of the East Turkistan National
Movement and the Minister for Foreign Affairs and National Security
of the East Turkistan Government in Exile. A refugee from
the city of Artush in the Kazil Sakuriyas Autonomous Prefecture
of Chinese occupied East Turkistan Khudayar moved to the US
at the age of seven, where he would grow up
(02:43):
in Oklahoma. Hudayar was a strong advocate of the Wiger
Human Rights Policy Act and has organized several demonstrations in
support of East Turkistani independence and the human rights of
its inhabitants. Prior to becoming Minister for Four Affairs, who
I Are was the Prime Minister of the East Turkistan
(03:04):
Government in exile. Foreign Ministers, Stylidhoda are welcome to the show.
Speaker 4 (03:10):
Thank you for roving me good to be on.
Speaker 3 (03:12):
Could you give us a background of the East Turkistan
National Movement and how ETNM differs from other Uigur and
East Turkistani advocacy groups.
Speaker 5 (03:23):
The East Turkistan National Movement is a nonprofit, non governmental
organization which was established in June twenty seventeen by myself
and other fellow East Turkistan age who had grown up
in the United States and other Western countries. Were based
in Washington, d c Utnam advocates for the political and
(03:46):
human rights of all of East Turkistans people because we
believe that without political rights, there's no way for us
to ensure the human rights.
Speaker 4 (03:53):
Of our people.
Speaker 5 (03:54):
Unlike other weager advocacy groups that might advocate for humor
for simply for only human rights or cultural rights and
you know, autonomy under Chinese rule. Etnam seeks, you know,
the restoration of East Turkistan's full sovereignty and the re
establishment of East Takistan as a democratic republic.
Speaker 3 (04:16):
What is the story of the East Turkistan Government in exile? Now,
many people in the United States and around the world
are not very familiar about the East Turkistan Government in exile.
Often they conflated with the World Uigor Congress headed by
tokun Issa. What is the origins of the East Turkistan
Government in exile, its relationship with the World wigor Congress,
(04:42):
and how the government in exile differs from the Congress.
Speaker 5 (04:48):
The East Takistan Government to Exile sees itself as the
direct successor of the East Takistan Republic, which was overthrown
by the People's Republic of China and December twenty second,
nineteen forty nine. As such, the East Turkistan Government in Exile,
officially known as the Government in Exile the Republic of
East Turkistan, advocates for the complete independence of East Turkistan
(05:11):
emphasizing the restoration of East Turkistan as a sovereign and
democratic republic. The East Turkistan Government in Exile is not,
you know, an organization in the not sense, but rather
a parliamentary based government elected by and made up of
a pro independence Swigers, Kazakhs, another turk of people's in
our diaspora, we advocate for all of East Turkistan's people,
(05:36):
not just the Wears, and this fundamental difference in its makeup, ideology,
and goals you know, clearly distinguish the East Takstan Government
in Exile from the world we were Congress or any
other weaker organizations. We were established on September fourteen, two
thousand four, in Washington, d C. Though we date our
(05:57):
exile date officially back to December twenty second, nineteen forty nine,
as a direct response to the Chinese government's attempts to
suppress East Pakistan's struggle for independents. Historically, all if you know,
if not, the majority of we were and other East
Takistani groups were all pro independents.
Speaker 4 (06:18):
However, as a result of.
Speaker 5 (06:20):
This, on March nineteen, nineteen ninety six, the CCP pull
up euro standing Committee, which is like the top seven
member you know, ruling body of China, held a secret,
top secret meeting in Beijing and issued a ten point
secret directive called Document number seven nineteen ninety six, meaning
(06:41):
it's the seven CCP pull Bureau document from nineteen ninety six.
And this document or these ten point directives was aimed
at suppressing and preventing East ta Kistani independence. Specifically, Directive
number eight of Document number seven nineteen ninety six called
for you know, calls for infiltrating and co opting you know,
(07:03):
East Takistani and weaker organizations and the aspar communities and
using all means is necessary to prevent the internationalization of
these textan problem. So since nineteen ninety six, China began
to implement the directives from Document number seven nineteen ninety
six almost immediately, and by the early two thousands it
(07:25):
had managed to sow discord and influence diaspora organizations and
the communities individuals to oppose independence in favor of human
rights and genuine autonomy is something that you know, is
more acceptable and less harmful from a Chinese government perspective.
(07:48):
And really the turning point came in April two thousand
and four, when the pro independence East Turkistan National Congress,
which was you could say described as are the fact
of government's nextile, then split, leading to the formation of
the Worldwiger Congress, which rejected independence, rejected even you know,
(08:09):
using the term East Taukistan at the time, in favor
of focusing on only weager human rights and autonomy in China,
and they were established in April two thousand and four
in Munich, Germany. In response to this, pro independence, members
of the Easternakistan National Congress, especially those who were you know,
(08:29):
military officers of the second and East t Kistan Republic,
in turn resisted, you know, the attempts to extinguish Eastern
Kistan's independence struggle, and they were successful in convincing many
foreign policy folksure in Washington in the United States, to
allow us to establish the government in exile. And thus,
(08:50):
on September fourteen, two thousand and four, the Eastern Kistan
Republic was formally established in Washington, d C.
Speaker 4 (08:57):
With the ceremony inside the US role building.
Speaker 3 (09:01):
There have been other ethnic curves that once had their
own independent state but eventually compromised with the state that
eventually encompassed their historical territory. Why does the government in
exile believe that independence is the optimal path for the
(09:22):
people of East Tarkistan. What case would the East Turkistan
government exile bring in favor of independence over other forms
of settlement of this conflict.
Speaker 4 (09:35):
Well, firstly, we have to look at the fact.
Speaker 5 (09:38):
The fact is that East Takistan was historically an independent nation.
You know, prior to the manchu Qin conquest of East Takistan,
East took us in seventeen fifty nine, East Takistan was
an independent nation known as the Yakan Kanic. We've been
known as Turkistan since you know, the sixth century CE,
(10:00):
and this referred to the Turkic kagan eight at the time,
because Turkistan was the Sordian or Persian name or Tocharian
name in many cases for meaning the country of the Turks,
referring to the turk Karganate. Throughout history, we have you know,
maintained our independence.
Speaker 4 (10:20):
We were an independent Davis.
Speaker 5 (10:22):
We have no you know, cultural, linguistic or historical or
even religious ties to China or the Chinese whatsoever. When
the Chinese manchu Qing dynasty invaded East Turkistan in seventeen
fifty nine and initially ruled us as a military colony.
The people of East Turkistan revolted or resisted the Gustus
(10:45):
occupation some forty two times, and in eighteen sixty we
were able to thaw it off the Chinese occupation and
we re established our independence as Zakistan or State of
Jettasha also known as Kashkari, and we established diplomatic relations
with both the Ottoman Empire, the British Empire and the
(11:05):
Russian Empire, three main big empires of that time. However, unfortunately,
in eighteen seventy six, the Manchu Qing Empire was supported
by the Russian Empire in conquering East Turkistan once more,
and in eighteen eighty four, the Manchu Qing dynasty formally
(11:26):
annexed East Turkistan as Shinzao, meaning the colony. If you
look at the original Chinese English dictionary from the eighteen
eighties and eighteen nineties, translates literally as the colony, and
now it's been translated as the new territory in the
twentieth century. We you know, our people never gave up
(11:46):
on independence. We continuously fought against the occupation, and in
in nineteen thirty three, we formally re established our independence
as the East Turkistan Republic. But unfortunately, again due to
Chinese warlords being supported by the Soviet Union, our independence
was short lived. We declared our independence once more and
(12:10):
nowhere twelfth, nineteen forty four, and again because the Soviet
Union essentially filled the south and supported the Chinese in
assassinating our top leaders. You know, so what is officially
described as a you know, plane crash in both from
the Soviet perspective and even you know, the Chinese government's perspective,
(12:31):
they described it as a tragic plane crash.
Speaker 4 (12:33):
Our top leaders were killed.
Speaker 5 (12:36):
However, recently, the classified CIA document shows that the Soviet
Union assassinated thirty top senior East ta Kistani officials, political
and military officials to prevent the resistance effective resistance against
the ensuing Chinese communist occupation of Eastern Kistan, which they
(12:57):
launched on October twelfth of nineteen forty nine. So from
that perspective, you know, the historical facts show that, you know,
we were an independent nation if you look at you know,
the criteria of an independent nation or criteria of statehood
from the nineteen the thirty three monten Vido mont Invido Convention.
(13:19):
We fit all those you know criteria, We fit all
those requirements, and you know, the only way to ensure
our people's survival is by having our own independent states.
Because in nineteen fifty five, the Chinese designated US as
a so called you know, autonomous region, officially describing us,
(13:41):
giving us, you know, the title of the Shinjiang Autonomous Region.
But what has autonomy brought us? We work from over
ninety percent, ninety two percent of the population in nineteen
forty nine to less than sixty percent of the population today.
The Chinese weren't from less than four percent, and that
four percent in nineteen forty nine was the Chinese military
(14:01):
and their families that were sent and the Chinese government
officials that were sent to colonize and control East Turkistan.
The autonomy that we've been given has resulted in you know,
mass desecration of our people, the numerous massacres, the ongoing
genocide that we face. So for us, the only way
to ensure our survival is through by restoring our national independence,
(14:27):
by restoring our own state, because no government is going
to guarantee our human rights.
Speaker 4 (14:33):
We see this. I was at the UN last week.
Speaker 5 (14:36):
Not a single other than the United States and the UK, no,
no government, you know, dared even condemn China's ongoing genocide
and the crimes against humanity in East ta Kistan, and
even the US and the West condemnation hasn't turned it
to any fruitful action.
Speaker 4 (14:54):
They're like, oh, yeah, we're concerned.
Speaker 5 (14:56):
You know, they've been concerned for decades, but the situation
has got got worse. The Chinese have promised us, you know,
you have autonomy. We've had autonomy on paper since nineteen
fifty five, for the past sixty decades.
Speaker 4 (15:10):
And what has that brought us?
Speaker 5 (15:12):
That has transformed us from being the owners of the
land of the country, from being the majujority to you know,
become nearly becoming.
Speaker 4 (15:21):
A minority in our own country. So this is the
only way for us.
Speaker 5 (15:25):
Independence is the only way to ensure that we have
our political rights.
Speaker 4 (15:29):
Which is the only way to guarantee.
Speaker 5 (15:31):
That we have, you know, our human rights, and the
only way to really guarantee our existence. Because on paper,
everyone says we're concerned about human rights. We condemn human
rights violations, we condem genocide, We can them crimes against humanity,
but that condemnation isnt translated into meaningful action to actually
prevent and punish the crime of genocide, and thus China
(15:53):
is getting away with genocide, with colonization, with occupation, with impunity.
Speaker 4 (15:59):
In the twenty first century.
Speaker 3 (16:01):
Often people condemned the persecution of the Uga and other
East Turkistani people as something characteristic of the Chinese Communist Party,
and with the Cold War there has been this use
of narrative that this is a communist oppression. And when
we look at pro East Tarkustani pro Uigur activists who
(16:24):
are not East Tarkistani I'm referring to allies of the
Uigur and East Rakistani people, they too tend to portray
it as a communism versus freedom struggle. However, when one
looks at the first East Turkistan Republic, it was not
the communist but the woman Toong that tried to ethnically
cleanse wigers. So is the situation a issue of communism
(16:49):
or would you say it's more of a hand and
Chinese ethnic supremacy issue that is at play here. So
does overthrowing this ECP saw the issue, or this is
an underlying issue of hand supremacy that has been going
on for centuries from China via the other countries that
(17:14):
China has come to occupy.
Speaker 5 (17:17):
So simply put, the the ongoing genocide ard other Turkic
peoples in East Turkistan is rooted in the broader issue
of Chinese you know, supremacy, racism, you know, and you
know Chinese colonial.
Speaker 4 (17:38):
Expansionism and imperialism.
Speaker 5 (17:40):
It's rooted in Chinese occupation and colonization of each Cirkuistan.
Rather than folly being a communist issue. Yeah, things got worse,
you know under the communists, but this is not something new,
Like every previous Chinese administration wanted to do the same thing.
(18:00):
It's only that the Communists have been the one. The
Chinese Commists have been the one that have succeeded in
a large part in achieving you know, the show called
Chinese Dream that previous Chinese administrations wanted.
Speaker 4 (18:15):
So like if you look at you know, the historical.
Speaker 5 (18:17):
Facts, the the genocide and the overall persecution of we
would sell the Turkic people predates you know, the Chinese
Communist Party. It started with you know, the man teaching
occupation of East Turkistan.
Speaker 4 (18:32):
Under you know, the Man Treating Empire.
Speaker 5 (18:34):
Even when the Chinese warlords after the Man Treating dynasty
felt the Chinese war, the warl wards wanted to you know,
extensively colonize the East Turkistan and exterminate we were Tuk people.
In fact, if you look at the Chinese, you know,
the Kolaman Tongues leader or founding father as you know,
Hunyat Sin, he has a book in English that he
(18:56):
wrote that that's called the Internationalization of China, and in
it he has a specific chapter specifically calling for the
colonization of East Takistan and Mongolia, in which she at
that time, this is from nineteen twenty one, he wanted to,
you know, settle ten marine Chinese in East Takistan within
(19:18):
ten years. And his argument was, well, you know, the
Anglo Saxins and others engaged in colonization to support their nation,
so it's perfectly fine for the Chinese to do the
same thing.
Speaker 4 (19:33):
And in fact, you.
Speaker 5 (19:34):
Know, one of the reasons why the first East Turkistan
Republic you know, was so short lived and fell is
because of the treachery of the Chinese Muslims, the Tungans
or the Huais it was the Chinese Muslims, who you know,
came and said, oh, you know, we're your Muslim brothers
were persecuted to give us refuge, so he gave them refuge.
(19:56):
And then the Chinese they aligned themselves with the Chinese nownationalists.
Then they attacked our government in wanting to establish their
own so called you know, Tunkhanistan, or in wanting to
you know, join you know, greater you know, the Chinese nation.
And they were the leading force that the Chinese nationalists
(20:17):
used to you know, overthrow the first.
Speaker 4 (20:20):
East Turkistan Republic.
Speaker 5 (20:22):
They engaged in massacres after they took over Kashgar. They
exterminated several thousand people, women and children, you know, engaging
in ethnic cleansing operation, engaged in you know, mass rapes
of our women in Kashka.
Speaker 4 (20:39):
And this is recorded in history.
Speaker 5 (20:41):
This was done by the Chinese Muslims, you know, who
called themselves, who deceived us by calling themselves our Muslim brothers,
saying that, you know, let's not fight during Ramadan, you know,
let's let's let's have a ceasefire momentarily during this whole month,
and we upheld on our We foolishly upheld that cease fire.
(21:02):
But several days after we you know, sent our troops
back home to spend the month of Ramadan with what
their families, they attacked our capital and sacked it. Then,
you know, as I was mentioning earlier, it's the communists
succeeded in what the previous Chinese have always wanted to do,
(21:22):
and even you know, right now with the ongoing genocide.
Back in twenty twenty one, when the United States government
recognized the genocide of Chinese genocide and needs to stunt
as genocide and crimes against humanity, you had proponents of
you know, so called Chinese democracy, including you know, their
leader Waging Shin, who not only condemned the United States
(21:45):
for recognizing the genocide but falsely claimed that we would
have committed genocide against the Chinese. And you know, he
echoed the Chinese government and even the CCPs racist you
know propaganda talking points demonizing we were was as terrorists
extremists and that you know, what the CCP was doing
(22:06):
was the right thing. And he said that you know,
this could only evolved in this recognition, would only involve
in those fol called terrorists and extremists who want independence,
and that if if we were pushed for independence that
the you know, he openly threatened we were you know,
this was on social media on formerly Twitter now x
(22:29):
where he stated that if we were you know, seek independence,
they will face a real genocide that not even quote
your American friends can stop. This in itself shows you
that this issue is not about you know, simply being
one political party. The Thus, you know, the genocide of
we Wres other Turkic peoples is rooted in the persistent
(22:53):
racist Chinese ethnic supremacy, colonialism, and the Chinese desire to
control East Turkistan, transcending any specific political regimes or political ideologies.
Speaker 3 (23:05):
Does this racism also flow into the anti CCP activist community?
From my personal experience, some people I've spoken to who
are ethnically Chinese and opposed a CCP also tend to
have a dismissive view at best, towards the flight of
the Oiger people. From your experience, have you seen any
(23:29):
cases where this anti Iger racism, anti Turkic racism, or
dismissal of the Higer applight bleeds into many of the
activists that Western people consider.
Speaker 4 (23:43):
To be anti CCP and pro West.
Speaker 5 (23:47):
The Chinese Democracy leader movements leader Reging Shin. And this
is someone that you know, the United States Congress and
other governments have given you know, human rights or the medals.
Speaker 4 (23:59):
To And what did he state?
Speaker 5 (24:01):
He not only denied the genocide, but he threatened us
with quote real genocide if we try to, you know,
advocate for independence. Is this shows you that this is
not just you know that either this shows you not
only are those Chinese so called democracy activists fake in
their you know, advocacy for democracy, because if they were
(24:23):
truly democratic, then they would recognize that we as human
beings like we would have the right to freedom, the
right to democracy, the right to determine our own political
future without some Chinese colonizers telling us what to do. Furthermore,
you know, if you if there's a book that a
(24:44):
Chinese author wrote in two thousand and seven called My
West China, You're East Turkistan, and there's a specific pattage
in which he visits cash Gar and he's, you know,
writes about the whole issue of East Turkistan, and he
states that he.
Speaker 4 (25:02):
Visited and spoke with numerous.
Speaker 5 (25:04):
You know, hundreds of Chinese scholars, you know, liberal elites,
pro human rights, pro democracy folks in China and both
inside and outside China. But he said, when it comes
to the issue of East Turkistan, their mouths, this is
his own words are boeming with the words killed, kill, kill,
(25:24):
And he wrote this in two thousand and seven. If
it takes genocide, if it takes the genocide of millions
of Wikers to keep Chinese rule over you know, East Turkistan,
then don't be surprised if all these liberal liberals, these
pro democracy pro you know, human rights intellectuals, are silent.
(25:45):
And that is exactly what we faced, and that is
exactly what we saw.
Speaker 3 (25:51):
Often, people who are ignorant about the East Turkistan struggle
for independence conflate the movement with the Turkestan Islamic Party
and the East Turkistan Islamic Movement. Unsurprisingly, Chinese propaganda plays
on this ignorance based conflation. Could you explained for some
of our audience who do not know about this distinction,
(26:13):
how the government in exile and the rest of the
movement differs from ETIM and the Turkistan Islamic Party.
Speaker 5 (26:24):
Yeah, so the East Turkistan Independence movement, it's acronym, you know,
if you ticket it happens to be ETIM. Thus, immediately
after you know, the September eleven, two thousand and one
terrorist attacks, China began, you know, taking advantage of the
global war on terror because majority of these Turkistani people
(26:46):
happened to be Muslim. And in no Nonumber two thousand
and one, the Chinese government fabricated the so called East
Turkistan Islamic Movement, which also happens to have the same
acronym ETIM. And this was deliberately done to demonize and
undermine any potential support for East tar Kistan's legitimate independence
(27:09):
move movement by attempting to portray it as you know,
so called extremist Islamist movement or part of the.
Speaker 4 (27:16):
Global jihadist movement.
Speaker 5 (27:18):
It's important to know here that you know, prior to
November two thousand and one, there was no mention of
any entity or any movement called the so called East
ta Kistan Islamic Movement. To date, no weager, organization or
entity or individual has ever, you know, called itself or
(27:39):
claimed to be a part of the so called East
Turkistan Islamic move East Takistan's independent movement has, you know,
independence movement has no ties to Islamic fundamentalism, global jihadism,
or religious extremism or whatever propaganda that the Chinese government
has been throwing out post nine to eleven. It is
(28:00):
in fact an anti colonial national liberation movement. And similarly,
when it comes to the Turkistani Islamic Party, the TP
is you know, believed bias to have been established by
Chinese intelligence. I mean think of it, what country like
if like, how is it possible for a so called
(28:21):
anti China organization to you know, be able to establish
itself in Pakistan and operate, you know, unhindered. Like the
TP was established, we believe by Chinese intelligence in China's
all weather ally Pakistan in late nineteen ninety seven, and
since it's been serving as a controlled, you know, false
(28:43):
flag organization for Chinese intelligence to discredit and derail any
international support for East Turkistan's independence by creating this false
flag entity known as like TIP or the Turkistan Islamic
Part which clearly aligned itself with the Taliban and al
(29:04):
Qaeda and fought alongside those forces against you know, NATO
and the United States in Afghanistan. Beijing aim to associate,
you know, to falsively attempt to portray our national independence
movement and our cause with you know, terrorism and global jihadism,
(29:24):
exploiting you know, global fears and misconceptions. The Eastern Kistan
government in exile, and you know, our broader independence movement
is focused solely on national self determination and national independent
We we you know, advocate for our political rights, our democracy,
and our national independence as as a pluralistic republic, which
(29:48):
clearly distinguishes us from you know, these Chinese fabricated entities.
And I want to make it clear that the East
ta Kistan government in exile is not affiliated with nor
does it nor does it support any hottest extremist groups.
Our approach, our policy is to advocate for resistance within
the boundaries of international human rights, national self determination, anti colonialism,
(30:14):
and humanitatorian law. We firmly oppose all forms of terrorism,
including Chinese state terrorism, and we are committed to a
strategy that respects international norms and the dignity of our people. Furthermore,
you know, while prioritizing you know, diplomatic and legal avenues,
we you know, reserved of the right to consider necessary
(30:37):
measures for the defense and protection of our people. Of course,
adhere strictly to international laws and the principles of self defense.
Our government in exile adheres to the strict policy of
one enemy, one goal.
Speaker 4 (30:52):
Our sole enemy is the Chinese government and its.
Speaker 5 (30:54):
Occupation forces, and our singular goal is the restoration of
Easter Kastan independence. Thus, unlike China's fabricated entities like the TP,
we don't view any country, government, or people other than
the government of China and.
Speaker 4 (31:09):
It's occupation forces as hostile to or.
Speaker 5 (31:13):
Enemies of the Eastern Stan of Eastern Kistanis people, and
as a responsible government. However, you know, we of course
criticize any government, organization, or individual that undermines the welfare,
the rights and interests of the Eastern Stanic people. And
I want to end with the point that to date,
and this is something that even you know, Western observers
(31:35):
like Jamestown Foundation have noted, the TP has solely functioned
as a propaganda tool for Bejing. Solely creating you know,
is them is propaganda to help China falsely portray we
was a terrorist or extremists and you know, thereby providing
you know, China with manufactured evidence to try to legalize
(31:57):
and justify its ongoing genocide any Turkistan, all under the
false pretense of so called anti terrorism.
Speaker 3 (32:06):
What sort of country does the government in exile envision
for East Turkistan. Would it be an Islamic republic or
would it be a secular state? How would it accommodate
non Muslim East turkistanis. I believe there's a small minority
of Orthodox Christians who are native to East Turkistan and
(32:30):
also the descendants of Chinese settlers in East Turkistan. How
would the government exile envision a solution for dealing with
the descendants of settlers who have been in East Turkistan
for so long? Would there be a pathway to citizenship
for those who commit to adopting East Turkistani culture? What
(32:51):
is the strategy for implementing a state for East Turkistan
in the future.
Speaker 5 (32:59):
Well, so as theash Takistan government in exile, since we
you know, trace our roots in the second East tar
Kistan Republic, our envision is you know, irustration with Thease
Turkistani independence as a democratic, pluralistic republic that upholds the
principles of human rights, religious freedom and equality for all
(33:20):
of its citizens. Yes, while the majority of the East
Turkistanis are Muslims. You know, our state would not be
in an Islamic state, but rather like the neighboring Central
republics of Kazakhstan, Kyrbistan and Uzbekistan.
Speaker 4 (33:32):
It would be much like them, where we ensure the rights.
Speaker 5 (33:36):
Of all of all the religious and ethnic groups are
respected and protected. You know, this inclusive vision again is
based on the state of the reality of the Second
Easter Kastani Republic where the Eastern Kistani nation was made
up of you know, all of these various ethnic groups
with diverse cultures and regious religious beliefs that called East
(34:00):
Takistan their home land. That coexists, you know, peacefully providing
you know, equal opportunities and protections under the law for
both Muslims and non Muslims like the Buddhists, Mongols and others,
and historically our people, the people of East Pakistan. You know,
we've historically been almost every religion out there that you know,
(34:22):
from Zorastrianism to Shamanism to Talentism to Destorying Christianity, to
Buddhism to Islam. So our you know, our vision is
that you know, we're committed to re establishing the East
ta Kistan Republic, where we have national values and we accommodate,
you know, the diversity of our population and fostering and
(34:46):
environment of mutual respect and protection. And by adhering to
these fundamental principles, you know, our aim is to rebuild
our nation where all of its citizens, regardless of their
faith or ethnicity, can thrive and contribute to the country's development.
Speaker 3 (35:07):
What message would you have for the and Uiger American
who's listening to this show, or for a student from
Chinese occupied East Turkestan who is in the United States
as an international student and happens to stumble upon the
podcast like a person who has been brainwashed all his
(35:30):
life about his own identity. What message would you have
to such a Uiger East turkustanding person who's listening to
this show.
Speaker 4 (35:40):
Well, the message is very clear.
Speaker 5 (35:43):
I mean for us, it's very clear from the atrocities
from the genocide that we're facing. China wants to extinguish us,
to exterminate us, not just our identity, but our very
physical existence.
Speaker 4 (35:56):
And we can see this.
Speaker 5 (35:58):
So no matter how much you know so uh, you know,
anyone tries to appeace to China, appease the Chinese, thinking
that you know, if I keep my mouth shut, if
I don't say independence, if I don't say Easter Kistan,
they'll leave me or my family alone. You're it's just
a matter of time because China's goal, the Chinese, you know,
(36:19):
occupation can force the goals, is to completely eradicate us, truly,
but slowly. And just because you're alive right now doesn't
mean that because they don't want to. It just means
that your time hasn't yet come. So in that sense,
the only way for us to you know, preserve our
very existent, not just our identity, but to preserve our
(36:42):
existence and ensure that you know, our children survive is
by restoring our national independence with no compromise whatsoever.
Speaker 4 (36:51):
You know, of course, if.
Speaker 5 (36:54):
You know when I mean no compromise, I mean on
the issue with independence, on the issue of our sovereign,
your territorial integrity. When it comes to other issues, you know,
we can negotiate any anything other beyond that in importance
with you know, international law. But independence is the only
way forward. And thus for those people listening, you know,
(37:16):
they need to take advantages of the opportunities that they
have in the free world and educate themselves in the
necessary you know, subjects, in the necessary fields, so that
they too can contribute to the development, to the growth
and the you know, governance of an independent East Turkistan
(37:39):
in the near future.
Speaker 3 (37:41):
What can East Turkistani Americans and also East Turkistanis who
happen to have a Chinese passport and are studying in
the United States do to better get involved with the
work of the East Turkistan government in exile. Could you
give us a small overview of the programs the internship
(38:03):
opportunities that the government in exile has for members of
the East Turkisten and diaspora and also natives who are
living in East Turkeys Center and are here in the
United States and a student visa, how could they be
better involved with the independence movement through the government in exile.
Speaker 5 (38:22):
Yes, well, as far as you know, for the students
who are still here and still are on you know,
still holding a Chinese passport, one of the first things is,
you know, renounce that Chinese passport, because the longer you
hold on to that Chinese passport, that means you accept,
you know, in buy any sense, you accept Chinese control,
(38:46):
an occupation of East tar Kistan, and this is something
that's absolutely unacceptable. It would be very surprising if people
still have Chinese passports right now, especially after you know,
the ongoing genocide and thinking that they are to have
an opportunity to return. The only way that you can
return to Eastekistan right now is if you plan on
(39:06):
you know, selling out your own people, betraying your own people,
and you know, working with with the Chinese government, the
occupation government.
Speaker 4 (39:14):
So that is something completely unacceptable.
Speaker 5 (39:17):
However, for those who you know, you know, want to
learn more about our government in exile, one, you know,
they can visit our webs if they want to, you know,
learn more about our policies or our you know history. Again,
there's a lot of information on our website as well
as those who want to you know, engage in internships.
(39:37):
So we have you know, all year long internships that
are generally divided into four you know, the four seasons,
and we have internships that are you know, designed for
whatever the abilities that they have. For example, those who
like to write, you know, who like to engage in
(39:57):
social media, we have communications and out each interns who
is for you know, for those who want to support
us through engaging social media and engaging supporters and partners.
We have you know, political and human rights advocacy interns
who want to you know, engage with where they will
work on campaigns to engage with policymakers, governments and other
(40:19):
organizations to raise awareness about the plight of Vastan. We
have events coordination and support internships where, you know, if
they like organizing events, whether it's demonstrations, webinars, conferences, that
would be something good for them. If those If there's
people out there who like creating content, whether it's video
content or you know, uh, you know, infographic, there's internships
(40:43):
for that for that as well. And those who want
to just engage in research, whether it's about our history,
whether it's about you know, geopolitical you know, developments, or
whether it's about specific you know, human rights issues. You know,
there's variety of ways that they can they can get
all involved if they want to do it, even you
(41:05):
know anonymously, there's that option too.
Speaker 3 (41:07):
Ladies and gentlemen, you just listen to Sala who I are,
Minister of Foreign Affairs and National Security of East Turkistance
Government and Exile.
Speaker 4 (41:17):
Sala who they are. Thank you for your time. Thank
you robing me.
Speaker 1 (41:21):
Strategic Wisdom with Andrew Jose is an initiative of Andrew
Jose Media. The views expressed by guests on this show
do not necessarily represent the official positions and opinions of
Andrew Jose, Andrew Jose Media, and Strategic Wisdom.
Speaker 2 (41:39):
Thank you for listening to Strategic Wisdom. Be sure to
follow and subscribe to us on whatever podcast platform you
are using to listen to this show in order to
not miss out any future interviews and conversations that Andrew
Jose will bring to you on this podcast. We're streaming
on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Yandex, Geosovin, Amazon Music, and
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(42:02):
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Speaker 3 (42:18):
Thank you so much, Gabby, and thank you so much.
Speaker 4 (42:21):
Ian ladies and gentlemen.
Speaker 3 (42:23):
This is your host, Andrew Jose signing off.
Welcome to another episode of Strategic Wisdom with Andrew Jose,
an international relations and current affairs podcast brought to you
by Andrew Jose, a Washington, DC based security policy analyst
and news reporter.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Were your presenters, Gabrielle Sapchak and.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Ian Stormfelt Thank you for tuning into this show.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
As early as twenty seventeen, reports surfaced alleging that the
People's Republic of China was detaining large numbers of Weikers, Kazakhs,
and other non Chinese ethnic groups in the province of Xinjong.
Several human rights groups, including Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch,
accused China of running concentration camps to ethnically cleansed Turkic
groups in the region.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
The revelation of more horrors in the coming months and
years drew public attention to the plight of the Wiga
people and their struggle for self determination against hand dominated China.
Contrary to Chinese claims, Xinjong was not always Chinese territory.
The land was long populated by Turkic groups. In fact,
the name Xinjiang, which means new Frontier, betrays the fact
(00:59):
that China annexed the territory only in the eighteenth century.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Fast forward as early as the early and mid twentieth century,
the Turkic groups in the region declared independence for East Turkestan,
only to be crushed by Chinese forces in a process
of cynicization that continues today as China attempts to remove
the East Turkistani from the Weiker, Kazakh and other Turkic
peoples who live in the region.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
Joining Andrew Jose today is Sally Judia, Minister for Foreign
Affairs and National Security of the East Turkistan Government in Exile.
Andrew and Foreign Minister Judio will discuss the history, background,
internal politics and long term visions shared among Wika and
East Turkistani diaspora groups for the emancipation and independence of
their homeland East Turkistan.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
Without further ado, we are going to hand the floor
over to Andrew Jose.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
Solid Daiar is the leader of the East Turkistan National
Movement and the Minister for Foreign Affairs and National Security
of the East Turkistan Government in Exile. A refugee from
the city of Artush in the Kazil Sakuriyas Autonomous Prefecture
of Chinese occupied East Turkistan Khudayar moved to the US
at the age of seven, where he would grow up
(02:43):
in Oklahoma. Hudayar was a strong advocate of the Wiger
Human Rights Policy Act and has organized several demonstrations in
support of East Turkistani independence and the human rights of
its inhabitants. Prior to becoming Minister for Four Affairs, who
I Are was the Prime Minister of the East Turkistan
(03:04):
Government in exile. Foreign Ministers, Stylidhoda are welcome to the show.
Speaker 4 (03:10):
Thank you for roving me good to be on.
Speaker 3 (03:12):
Could you give us a background of the East Turkistan
National Movement and how ETNM differs from other Uigur and
East Turkistani advocacy groups.
Speaker 5 (03:23):
The East Turkistan National Movement is a nonprofit, non governmental
organization which was established in June twenty seventeen by myself
and other fellow East Turkistan age who had grown up
in the United States and other Western countries. Were based
in Washington, d c Utnam advocates for the political and
(03:46):
human rights of all of East Turkistans people because we
believe that without political rights, there's no way for us
to ensure the human rights.
Speaker 4 (03:53):
Of our people.
Speaker 5 (03:54):
Unlike other weager advocacy groups that might advocate for humor
for simply for only human rights or cultural rights and
you know, autonomy under Chinese rule. Etnam seeks, you know,
the restoration of East Turkistan's full sovereignty and the re
establishment of East Takistan as a democratic republic.
Speaker 3 (04:16):
What is the story of the East Turkistan Government in exile? Now,
many people in the United States and around the world
are not very familiar about the East Turkistan Government in exile.
Often they conflated with the World Uigor Congress headed by
tokun Issa. What is the origins of the East Turkistan
Government in exile, its relationship with the World wigor Congress,
(04:42):
and how the government in exile differs from the Congress.
Speaker 5 (04:48):
The East Takistan Government to Exile sees itself as the
direct successor of the East Takistan Republic, which was overthrown
by the People's Republic of China and December twenty second,
nineteen forty nine. As such, the East Turkistan Government in Exile,
officially known as the Government in Exile the Republic of
East Turkistan, advocates for the complete independence of East Turkistan
(05:11):
emphasizing the restoration of East Turkistan as a sovereign and
democratic republic. The East Turkistan Government in Exile is not,
you know, an organization in the not sense, but rather
a parliamentary based government elected by and made up of
a pro independence Swigers, Kazakhs, another turk of people's in
our diaspora, we advocate for all of East Turkistan's people,
(05:36):
not just the Wears, and this fundamental difference in its makeup, ideology,
and goals you know, clearly distinguish the East Takstan Government
in Exile from the world we were Congress or any
other weaker organizations. We were established on September fourteen, two
thousand four, in Washington, d C. Though we date our
(05:57):
exile date officially back to December twenty second, nineteen forty nine,
as a direct response to the Chinese government's attempts to
suppress East Pakistan's struggle for independents. Historically, all if you know,
if not, the majority of we were and other East
Takistani groups were all pro independents.
Speaker 4 (06:18):
However, as a result of.
Speaker 5 (06:20):
This, on March nineteen, nineteen ninety six, the CCP pull
up euro standing Committee, which is like the top seven
member you know, ruling body of China, held a secret,
top secret meeting in Beijing and issued a ten point
secret directive called Document number seven nineteen ninety six, meaning
(06:41):
it's the seven CCP pull Bureau document from nineteen ninety six.
And this document or these ten point directives was aimed
at suppressing and preventing East ta Kistani independence. Specifically, Directive
number eight of Document number seven nineteen ninety six called
for you know, calls for infiltrating and co opting you know,
(07:03):
East Takistani and weaker organizations and the aspar communities and
using all means is necessary to prevent the internationalization of
these textan problem. So since nineteen ninety six, China began
to implement the directives from Document number seven nineteen ninety
six almost immediately, and by the early two thousands it
(07:25):
had managed to sow discord and influence diaspora organizations and
the communities individuals to oppose independence in favor of human
rights and genuine autonomy is something that you know, is
more acceptable and less harmful from a Chinese government perspective.
(07:48):
And really the turning point came in April two thousand
and four, when the pro independence East Turkistan National Congress,
which was you could say described as are the fact
of government's nextile, then split, leading to the formation of
the Worldwiger Congress, which rejected independence, rejected even you know,
(08:09):
using the term East Taukistan at the time, in favor
of focusing on only weager human rights and autonomy in China,
and they were established in April two thousand and four
in Munich, Germany. In response to this, pro independence, members
of the Easternakistan National Congress, especially those who were you know,
(08:29):
military officers of the second and East t Kistan Republic,
in turn resisted, you know, the attempts to extinguish Eastern
Kistan's independence struggle, and they were successful in convincing many
foreign policy folksure in Washington in the United States, to
allow us to establish the government in exile. And thus,
(08:50):
on September fourteen, two thousand and four, the Eastern Kistan
Republic was formally established in Washington, d C.
Speaker 4 (08:57):
With the ceremony inside the US role building.
Speaker 3 (09:01):
There have been other ethnic curves that once had their
own independent state but eventually compromised with the state that
eventually encompassed their historical territory. Why does the government in
exile believe that independence is the optimal path for the
(09:22):
people of East Tarkistan. What case would the East Turkistan
government exile bring in favor of independence over other forms
of settlement of this conflict.
Speaker 4 (09:35):
Well, firstly, we have to look at the fact.
Speaker 5 (09:38):
The fact is that East Takistan was historically an independent nation.
You know, prior to the manchu Qin conquest of East Takistan,
East took us in seventeen fifty nine, East Takistan was
an independent nation known as the Yakan Kanic. We've been
known as Turkistan since you know, the sixth century CE,
(10:00):
and this referred to the Turkic kagan eight at the time,
because Turkistan was the Sordian or Persian name or Tocharian
name in many cases for meaning the country of the Turks,
referring to the turk Karganate. Throughout history, we have you know,
maintained our independence.
Speaker 4 (10:20):
We were an independent Davis.
Speaker 5 (10:22):
We have no you know, cultural, linguistic or historical or
even religious ties to China or the Chinese whatsoever. When
the Chinese manchu Qing dynasty invaded East Turkistan in seventeen
fifty nine and initially ruled us as a military colony.
The people of East Turkistan revolted or resisted the Gustus
(10:45):
occupation some forty two times, and in eighteen sixty we
were able to thaw it off the Chinese occupation and
we re established our independence as Zakistan or State of
Jettasha also known as Kashkari, and we established diplomatic relations
with both the Ottoman Empire, the British Empire and the
(11:05):
Russian Empire, three main big empires of that time. However, unfortunately,
in eighteen seventy six, the Manchu Qing Empire was supported
by the Russian Empire in conquering East Turkistan once more,
and in eighteen eighty four, the Manchu Qing dynasty formally
(11:26):
annexed East Turkistan as Shinzao, meaning the colony. If you
look at the original Chinese English dictionary from the eighteen
eighties and eighteen nineties, translates literally as the colony, and
now it's been translated as the new territory in the
twentieth century. We you know, our people never gave up
(11:46):
on independence. We continuously fought against the occupation, and in
in nineteen thirty three, we formally re established our independence
as the East Turkistan Republic. But unfortunately, again due to
Chinese warlords being supported by the Soviet Union, our independence
was short lived. We declared our independence once more and
(12:10):
nowhere twelfth, nineteen forty four, and again because the Soviet
Union essentially filled the south and supported the Chinese in
assassinating our top leaders. You know, so what is officially
described as a you know, plane crash in both from
the Soviet perspective and even you know, the Chinese government's perspective,
(12:31):
they described it as a tragic plane crash.
Speaker 4 (12:33):
Our top leaders were killed.
Speaker 5 (12:36):
However, recently, the classified CIA document shows that the Soviet
Union assassinated thirty top senior East ta Kistani officials, political
and military officials to prevent the resistance effective resistance against
the ensuing Chinese communist occupation of Eastern Kistan, which they
(12:57):
launched on October twelfth of nineteen forty nine. So from
that perspective, you know, the historical facts show that, you know,
we were an independent nation if you look at you know,
the criteria of an independent nation or criteria of statehood
from the nineteen the thirty three monten Vido mont Invido Convention.
(13:19):
We fit all those you know criteria, We fit all
those requirements, and you know, the only way to ensure
our people's survival is by having our own independent states.
Because in nineteen fifty five, the Chinese designated US as
a so called you know, autonomous region, officially describing us,
(13:41):
giving us, you know, the title of the Shinjiang Autonomous Region.
But what has autonomy brought us? We work from over
ninety percent, ninety two percent of the population in nineteen
forty nine to less than sixty percent of the population today.
The Chinese weren't from less than four percent, and that
four percent in nineteen forty nine was the Chinese military
(14:01):
and their families that were sent and the Chinese government
officials that were sent to colonize and control East Turkistan.
The autonomy that we've been given has resulted in you know,
mass desecration of our people, the numerous massacres, the ongoing
genocide that we face. So for us, the only way
to ensure our survival is through by restoring our national independence,
(14:27):
by restoring our own state, because no government is going
to guarantee our human rights.
Speaker 4 (14:33):
We see this. I was at the UN last week.
Speaker 5 (14:36):
Not a single other than the United States and the UK, no,
no government, you know, dared even condemn China's ongoing genocide
and the crimes against humanity in East ta Kistan, and
even the US and the West condemnation hasn't turned it
to any fruitful action.
Speaker 4 (14:54):
They're like, oh, yeah, we're concerned.
Speaker 5 (14:56):
You know, they've been concerned for decades, but the situation
has got got worse. The Chinese have promised us, you know,
you have autonomy. We've had autonomy on paper since nineteen
fifty five, for the past sixty decades.
Speaker 4 (15:10):
And what has that brought us?
Speaker 5 (15:12):
That has transformed us from being the owners of the
land of the country, from being the majujority to you know,
become nearly becoming.
Speaker 4 (15:21):
A minority in our own country. So this is the
only way for us.
Speaker 5 (15:25):
Independence is the only way to ensure that we have
our political rights.
Speaker 4 (15:29):
Which is the only way to guarantee.
Speaker 5 (15:31):
That we have, you know, our human rights, and the
only way to really guarantee our existence. Because on paper,
everyone says we're concerned about human rights. We condemn human
rights violations, we condem genocide, We can them crimes against humanity,
but that condemnation isnt translated into meaningful action to actually
prevent and punish the crime of genocide, and thus China
(15:53):
is getting away with genocide, with colonization, with occupation, with impunity.
Speaker 4 (15:59):
In the twenty first century.
Speaker 3 (16:01):
Often people condemned the persecution of the Uga and other
East Turkistani people as something characteristic of the Chinese Communist Party,
and with the Cold War there has been this use
of narrative that this is a communist oppression. And when
we look at pro East Tarkustani pro Uigur activists who
(16:24):
are not East Tarkistani I'm referring to allies of the
Uigur and East Rakistani people, they too tend to portray
it as a communism versus freedom struggle. However, when one
looks at the first East Turkistan Republic, it was not
the communist but the woman Toong that tried to ethnically
cleanse wigers. So is the situation a issue of communism
(16:49):
or would you say it's more of a hand and
Chinese ethnic supremacy issue that is at play here. So
does overthrowing this ECP saw the issue, or this is
an underlying issue of hand supremacy that has been going
on for centuries from China via the other countries that
(17:14):
China has come to occupy.
Speaker 5 (17:17):
So simply put, the the ongoing genocide ard other Turkic
peoples in East Turkistan is rooted in the broader issue
of Chinese you know, supremacy, racism, you know, and you
know Chinese colonial.
Speaker 4 (17:38):
Expansionism and imperialism.
Speaker 5 (17:40):
It's rooted in Chinese occupation and colonization of each Cirkuistan.
Rather than folly being a communist issue. Yeah, things got worse,
you know under the communists, but this is not something new,
Like every previous Chinese administration wanted to do the same thing.
(18:00):
It's only that the Communists have been the one. The
Chinese Commists have been the one that have succeeded in
a large part in achieving you know, the show called
Chinese Dream that previous Chinese administrations wanted.
Speaker 4 (18:15):
So like if you look at you know, the historical.
Speaker 5 (18:17):
Facts, the the genocide and the overall persecution of we
would sell the Turkic people predates you know, the Chinese
Communist Party. It started with you know, the man teaching
occupation of East Turkistan.
Speaker 4 (18:32):
Under you know, the Man Treating Empire.
Speaker 5 (18:34):
Even when the Chinese warlords after the Man Treating dynasty
felt the Chinese war, the warl wards wanted to you know,
extensively colonize the East Turkistan and exterminate we were Tuk people.
In fact, if you look at the Chinese, you know,
the Kolaman Tongues leader or founding father as you know,
Hunyat Sin, he has a book in English that he
(18:56):
wrote that that's called the Internationalization of China, and in
it he has a specific chapter specifically calling for the
colonization of East Takistan and Mongolia, in which she at
that time, this is from nineteen twenty one, he wanted to,
you know, settle ten marine Chinese in East Takistan within
(19:18):
ten years. And his argument was, well, you know, the
Anglo Saxins and others engaged in colonization to support their nation,
so it's perfectly fine for the Chinese to do the
same thing.
Speaker 4 (19:33):
And in fact, you.
Speaker 5 (19:34):
Know, one of the reasons why the first East Turkistan
Republic you know, was so short lived and fell is
because of the treachery of the Chinese Muslims, the Tungans
or the Huais it was the Chinese Muslims, who you know,
came and said, oh, you know, we're your Muslim brothers
were persecuted to give us refuge, so he gave them refuge.
(19:56):
And then the Chinese they aligned themselves with the Chinese nownationalists.
Then they attacked our government in wanting to establish their
own so called you know, Tunkhanistan, or in wanting to
you know, join you know, greater you know, the Chinese nation.
And they were the leading force that the Chinese nationalists
(20:17):
used to you know, overthrow the first.
Speaker 4 (20:20):
East Turkistan Republic.
Speaker 5 (20:22):
They engaged in massacres after they took over Kashgar. They
exterminated several thousand people, women and children, you know, engaging
in ethnic cleansing operation, engaged in you know, mass rapes
of our women in Kashka.
Speaker 4 (20:39):
And this is recorded in history.
Speaker 5 (20:41):
This was done by the Chinese Muslims, you know, who
called themselves, who deceived us by calling themselves our Muslim brothers,
saying that, you know, let's not fight during Ramadan, you know,
let's let's let's have a ceasefire momentarily during this whole month,
and we upheld on our We foolishly upheld that cease fire.
(21:02):
But several days after we you know, sent our troops
back home to spend the month of Ramadan with what
their families, they attacked our capital and sacked it. Then,
you know, as I was mentioning earlier, it's the communists
succeeded in what the previous Chinese have always wanted to do,
(21:22):
and even you know, right now with the ongoing genocide.
Back in twenty twenty one, when the United States government
recognized the genocide of Chinese genocide and needs to stunt
as genocide and crimes against humanity, you had proponents of
you know, so called Chinese democracy, including you know, their
leader Waging Shin, who not only condemned the United States
(21:45):
for recognizing the genocide but falsely claimed that we would
have committed genocide against the Chinese. And you know, he
echoed the Chinese government and even the CCPs racist you
know propaganda talking points demonizing we were was as terrorists
extremists and that you know, what the CCP was doing
(22:06):
was the right thing. And he said that you know,
this could only evolved in this recognition, would only involve
in those fol called terrorists and extremists who want independence,
and that if if we were pushed for independence that
the you know, he openly threatened we were you know,
this was on social media on formerly Twitter now x
(22:29):
where he stated that if we were you know, seek independence,
they will face a real genocide that not even quote
your American friends can stop. This in itself shows you
that this issue is not about you know, simply being
one political party. The Thus, you know, the genocide of
we Wres other Turkic peoples is rooted in the persistent
(22:53):
racist Chinese ethnic supremacy, colonialism, and the Chinese desire to
control East Turkistan, transcending any specific political regimes or political ideologies.
Speaker 3 (23:05):
Does this racism also flow into the anti CCP activist community?
From my personal experience, some people I've spoken to who
are ethnically Chinese and opposed a CCP also tend to
have a dismissive view at best, towards the flight of
the Oiger people. From your experience, have you seen any
(23:29):
cases where this anti Iger racism, anti Turkic racism, or
dismissal of the Higer applight bleeds into many of the
activists that Western people consider.
Speaker 4 (23:43):
To be anti CCP and pro West.
Speaker 5 (23:47):
The Chinese Democracy leader movements leader Reging Shin. And this
is someone that you know, the United States Congress and
other governments have given you know, human rights or the medals.
Speaker 4 (23:59):
To And what did he state?
Speaker 5 (24:01):
He not only denied the genocide, but he threatened us
with quote real genocide if we try to, you know,
advocate for independence. Is this shows you that this is
not just you know that either this shows you not
only are those Chinese so called democracy activists fake in
their you know, advocacy for democracy, because if they were
(24:23):
truly democratic, then they would recognize that we as human
beings like we would have the right to freedom, the
right to democracy, the right to determine our own political
future without some Chinese colonizers telling us what to do. Furthermore,
you know, if you if there's a book that a
(24:44):
Chinese author wrote in two thousand and seven called My
West China, You're East Turkistan, and there's a specific pattage
in which he visits cash Gar and he's, you know,
writes about the whole issue of East Turkistan, and he
states that he.
Speaker 4 (25:02):
Visited and spoke with numerous.
Speaker 5 (25:04):
You know, hundreds of Chinese scholars, you know, liberal elites,
pro human rights, pro democracy folks in China and both
inside and outside China. But he said, when it comes
to the issue of East Turkistan, their mouths, this is
his own words are boeming with the words killed, kill, kill,
(25:24):
And he wrote this in two thousand and seven. If
it takes genocide, if it takes the genocide of millions
of Wikers to keep Chinese rule over you know, East Turkistan,
then don't be surprised if all these liberal liberals, these
pro democracy pro you know, human rights intellectuals, are silent.
(25:45):
And that is exactly what we faced, and that is
exactly what we saw.
Speaker 3 (25:51):
Often, people who are ignorant about the East Turkistan struggle
for independence conflate the movement with the Turkestan Islamic Party
and the East Turkistan Islamic Movement. Unsurprisingly, Chinese propaganda plays
on this ignorance based conflation. Could you explained for some
of our audience who do not know about this distinction,
(26:13):
how the government in exile and the rest of the
movement differs from ETIM and the Turkistan Islamic Party.
Speaker 5 (26:24):
Yeah, so the East Turkistan Independence movement, it's acronym, you know,
if you ticket it happens to be ETIM. Thus, immediately
after you know, the September eleven, two thousand and one
terrorist attacks, China began, you know, taking advantage of the
global war on terror because majority of these Turkistani people
(26:46):
happened to be Muslim. And in no Nonumber two thousand
and one, the Chinese government fabricated the so called East
Turkistan Islamic Movement, which also happens to have the same
acronym ETIM. And this was deliberately done to demonize and
undermine any potential support for East tar Kistan's legitimate independence
(27:09):
move movement by attempting to portray it as you know,
so called extremist Islamist movement or part of the.
Speaker 4 (27:16):
Global jihadist movement.
Speaker 5 (27:18):
It's important to know here that you know, prior to
November two thousand and one, there was no mention of
any entity or any movement called the so called East
ta Kistan Islamic Movement. To date, no weager, organization or
entity or individual has ever, you know, called itself or
(27:39):
claimed to be a part of the so called East
Turkistan Islamic move East Takistan's independent movement has, you know,
independence movement has no ties to Islamic fundamentalism, global jihadism,
or religious extremism or whatever propaganda that the Chinese government
has been throwing out post nine to eleven. It is
(28:00):
in fact an anti colonial national liberation movement. And similarly,
when it comes to the Turkistani Islamic Party, the TP
is you know, believed bias to have been established by
Chinese intelligence. I mean think of it, what country like
if like, how is it possible for a so called
(28:21):
anti China organization to you know, be able to establish
itself in Pakistan and operate, you know, unhindered. Like the
TP was established, we believe by Chinese intelligence in China's
all weather ally Pakistan in late nineteen ninety seven, and
since it's been serving as a controlled, you know, false
(28:43):
flag organization for Chinese intelligence to discredit and derail any
international support for East Turkistan's independence by creating this false
flag entity known as like TIP or the Turkistan Islamic
Part which clearly aligned itself with the Taliban and al
(29:04):
Qaeda and fought alongside those forces against you know, NATO
and the United States in Afghanistan. Beijing aim to associate,
you know, to falsively attempt to portray our national independence
movement and our cause with you know, terrorism and global jihadism,
(29:24):
exploiting you know, global fears and misconceptions. The Eastern Kistan
government in exile, and you know, our broader independence movement
is focused solely on national self determination and national independent
We we you know, advocate for our political rights, our democracy,
and our national independence as as a pluralistic republic, which
(29:48):
clearly distinguishes us from you know, these Chinese fabricated entities.
And I want to make it clear that the East
ta Kistan government in exile is not affiliated with nor
does it nor does it support any hottest extremist groups.
Our approach, our policy is to advocate for resistance within
the boundaries of international human rights, national self determination, anti colonialism,
(30:14):
and humanitatorian law. We firmly oppose all forms of terrorism,
including Chinese state terrorism, and we are committed to a
strategy that respects international norms and the dignity of our people. Furthermore,
you know, while prioritizing you know, diplomatic and legal avenues,
we you know, reserved of the right to consider necessary
(30:37):
measures for the defense and protection of our people. Of course,
adhere strictly to international laws and the principles of self defense.
Our government in exile adheres to the strict policy of
one enemy, one goal.
Speaker 4 (30:52):
Our sole enemy is the Chinese government and its.
Speaker 5 (30:54):
Occupation forces, and our singular goal is the restoration of
Easter Kastan independence. Thus, unlike China's fabricated entities like the TP,
we don't view any country, government, or people other than
the government of China and.
Speaker 4 (31:09):
It's occupation forces as hostile to or.
Speaker 5 (31:13):
Enemies of the Eastern Stan of Eastern Kistanis people, and
as a responsible government. However, you know, we of course
criticize any government, organization, or individual that undermines the welfare,
the rights and interests of the Eastern Stanic people. And
I want to end with the point that to date,
and this is something that even you know, Western observers
(31:35):
like Jamestown Foundation have noted, the TP has solely functioned
as a propaganda tool for Bejing. Solely creating you know,
is them is propaganda to help China falsely portray we
was a terrorist or extremists and you know, thereby providing
you know, China with manufactured evidence to try to legalize
(31:57):
and justify its ongoing genocide any Turkistan, all under the
false pretense of so called anti terrorism.
Speaker 3 (32:06):
What sort of country does the government in exile envision
for East Turkistan. Would it be an Islamic republic or
would it be a secular state? How would it accommodate
non Muslim East turkistanis. I believe there's a small minority
of Orthodox Christians who are native to East Turkistan and
(32:30):
also the descendants of Chinese settlers in East Turkistan. How
would the government exile envision a solution for dealing with
the descendants of settlers who have been in East Turkistan
for so long? Would there be a pathway to citizenship
for those who commit to adopting East Turkistani culture? What
(32:51):
is the strategy for implementing a state for East Turkistan
in the future.
Speaker 5 (32:59):
Well, so as theash Takistan government in exile, since we
you know, trace our roots in the second East tar
Kistan Republic, our envision is you know, irustration with Thease
Turkistani independence as a democratic, pluralistic republic that upholds the
principles of human rights, religious freedom and equality for all
(33:20):
of its citizens. Yes, while the majority of the East
Turkistanis are Muslims. You know, our state would not be
in an Islamic state, but rather like the neighboring Central
republics of Kazakhstan, Kyrbistan and Uzbekistan.
Speaker 4 (33:32):
It would be much like them, where we ensure the rights.
Speaker 5 (33:36):
Of all of all the religious and ethnic groups are
respected and protected. You know, this inclusive vision again is
based on the state of the reality of the Second
Easter Kastani Republic where the Eastern Kistani nation was made
up of you know, all of these various ethnic groups
with diverse cultures and regious religious beliefs that called East
(34:00):
Takistan their home land. That coexists, you know, peacefully providing
you know, equal opportunities and protections under the law for
both Muslims and non Muslims like the Buddhists, Mongols and others,
and historically our people, the people of East Pakistan. You know,
we've historically been almost every religion out there that you know,
(34:22):
from Zorastrianism to Shamanism to Talentism to Destorying Christianity, to
Buddhism to Islam. So our you know, our vision is
that you know, we're committed to re establishing the East
ta Kistan Republic, where we have national values and we accommodate,
you know, the diversity of our population and fostering and
(34:46):
environment of mutual respect and protection. And by adhering to
these fundamental principles, you know, our aim is to rebuild
our nation where all of its citizens, regardless of their
faith or ethnicity, can thrive and contribute to the country's development.
Speaker 3 (35:07):
What message would you have for the and Uiger American
who's listening to this show, or for a student from
Chinese occupied East Turkestan who is in the United States
as an international student and happens to stumble upon the
podcast like a person who has been brainwashed all his
(35:30):
life about his own identity. What message would you have
to such a Uiger East turkustanding person who's listening to
this show.
Speaker 4 (35:40):
Well, the message is very clear.
Speaker 5 (35:43):
I mean for us, it's very clear from the atrocities
from the genocide that we're facing. China wants to extinguish us,
to exterminate us, not just our identity, but our very
physical existence.
Speaker 4 (35:56):
And we can see this.
Speaker 5 (35:58):
So no matter how much you know so uh, you know,
anyone tries to appeace to China, appease the Chinese, thinking
that you know, if I keep my mouth shut, if
I don't say independence, if I don't say Easter Kistan,
they'll leave me or my family alone. You're it's just
a matter of time because China's goal, the Chinese, you know,
(36:19):
occupation can force the goals, is to completely eradicate us, truly,
but slowly. And just because you're alive right now doesn't
mean that because they don't want to. It just means
that your time hasn't yet come. So in that sense,
the only way for us to you know, preserve our
very existent, not just our identity, but to preserve our
(36:42):
existence and ensure that you know, our children survive is
by restoring our national independence with no compromise whatsoever.
Speaker 4 (36:51):
You know, of course, if.
Speaker 5 (36:54):
You know when I mean no compromise, I mean on
the issue with independence, on the issue of our sovereign,
your territorial integrity. When it comes to other issues, you know,
we can negotiate any anything other beyond that in importance
with you know, international law. But independence is the only
way forward. And thus for those people listening, you know,
(37:16):
they need to take advantages of the opportunities that they
have in the free world and educate themselves in the
necessary you know, subjects, in the necessary fields, so that
they too can contribute to the development, to the growth
and the you know, governance of an independent East Turkistan
(37:39):
in the near future.
Speaker 3 (37:41):
What can East Turkistani Americans and also East Turkistanis who
happen to have a Chinese passport and are studying in
the United States do to better get involved with the
work of the East Turkistan government in exile. Could you
give us a small overview of the programs the internship
(38:03):
opportunities that the government in exile has for members of
the East Turkisten and diaspora and also natives who are
living in East Turkeys Center and are here in the
United States and a student visa, how could they be
better involved with the independence movement through the government in exile.
Speaker 5 (38:22):
Yes, well, as far as you know, for the students
who are still here and still are on you know,
still holding a Chinese passport, one of the first things is,
you know, renounce that Chinese passport, because the longer you
hold on to that Chinese passport, that means you accept,
you know, in buy any sense, you accept Chinese control,
(38:46):
an occupation of East tar Kistan, and this is something
that's absolutely unacceptable. It would be very surprising if people
still have Chinese passports right now, especially after you know,
the ongoing genocide and thinking that they are to have
an opportunity to return. The only way that you can
return to Eastekistan right now is if you plan on
(39:06):
you know, selling out your own people, betraying your own people,
and you know, working with with the Chinese government, the
occupation government.
Speaker 4 (39:14):
So that is something completely unacceptable.
Speaker 5 (39:17):
However, for those who you know, you know, want to
learn more about our government in exile, one, you know,
they can visit our webs if they want to, you know,
learn more about our policies or our you know history. Again,
there's a lot of information on our website as well
as those who want to you know, engage in internships.
(39:37):
So we have you know, all year long internships that
are generally divided into four you know, the four seasons,
and we have internships that are you know, designed for
whatever the abilities that they have. For example, those who
like to write, you know, who like to engage in
(39:57):
social media, we have communications and out each interns who
is for you know, for those who want to support
us through engaging social media and engaging supporters and partners.
We have you know, political and human rights advocacy interns
who want to you know, engage with where they will
work on campaigns to engage with policymakers, governments and other
(40:19):
organizations to raise awareness about the plight of Vastan. We
have events coordination and support internships where, you know, if
they like organizing events, whether it's demonstrations, webinars, conferences, that
would be something good for them. If those If there's
people out there who like creating content, whether it's video
content or you know, uh, you know, infographic, there's internships
(40:43):
for that for that as well. And those who want
to just engage in research, whether it's about our history,
whether it's about you know, geopolitical you know, developments, or
whether it's about specific you know, human rights issues. You know,
there's variety of ways that they can they can get
all involved if they want to do it, even you
(41:05):
know anonymously, there's that option too.
Speaker 3 (41:07):
Ladies and gentlemen, you just listen to Sala who I are,
Minister of Foreign Affairs and National Security of East Turkistance
Government and Exile.
Speaker 4 (41:17):
Sala who they are. Thank you for your time. Thank
you robing me.
Speaker 1 (41:21):
Strategic Wisdom with Andrew Jose is an initiative of Andrew
Jose Media. The views expressed by guests on this show
do not necessarily represent the official positions and opinions of
Andrew Jose, Andrew Jose Media, and Strategic Wisdom.
Speaker 2 (41:39):
Thank you for listening to Strategic Wisdom. Be sure to
follow and subscribe to us on whatever podcast platform you
are using to listen to this show in order to
not miss out any future interviews and conversations that Andrew
Jose will bring to you on this podcast. We're streaming
on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Yandex, Geosovin, Amazon Music, and
many other podcasts streaming service is also. Be sure to
(42:02):
subscribe to Strategic Wisdom on substack at Strategicwisdom dot substack
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Instagram at Stratwisdom. Do support our work by buying from
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Speaker 3 (42:18):
Thank you so much, Gabby, and thank you so much.
Speaker 4 (42:21):
Ian ladies and gentlemen.
Speaker 3 (42:23):
This is your host, Andrew Jose signing off.
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