April 16, 2025 • 53 mins
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Episode Transcript
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Jeff Jones (00:09):
Welcome to Strength for Today's Pastor conversations
with current senior pastors andleaders which will strengthen
and help you in your pastoralministry.
And now here's your host, billHoldridge of Poiman Ministries.
Bill Holdridge (00:23):
Welcome to Podcast 171.
Today, once again, we're withPastor Dale Lewis.
We last had Dale for Podcast168, and we entitled that
podcast episode Dale Lewis aPastor you Need to Know, and I
firmly believe that he's apastor you need to know.
But in that podcast Dale spokeabout Barnabas, which is the
(00:47):
name of the men's discipleshipclass that he has been using
over the years to disciplesomewhere around 500 men.
And Dale learned it from mewhen I pastored in Monterey,
california, and I learned itfrom Cliff Stabler, a local
pastor in Monterey who discipledme, and Cliff had been
discipled by Ray Stedman, thewell-known author, who's now in
(01:11):
heaven, and Ray Stedman had beendiscipled by Harry Ironside and
J Vernon McGee.
Well, all that's kind of alead-in to what we're going to
be talking about, because theBarnabas discipleship process
really had its genesis withthese men.
So I've reached out to Dale tocircle back with me to break
(01:31):
down the how-to of Barnabas, andthe reason for that is that
Dale has taken what was ayear-long program when we did it
together back in Monterey.
He took it and made a 13-weekdiscipleship process for the
(01:52):
church that he pastored in theBitterroot Valley in Montana,
and so he's really done a greatjob with that whole thing.
So anyway, welcome to theprogram Dale with all that long
introduction.
Dale Lewis (02:06):
It's great to see you again, bill.
It's good to be back with youand the listeners, and such a
blessing to be able to make thisits own standalone podcast
about mentoring men anddiscipling men such a needed
asset for anybody in ministry.
Bill Holdridge (02:20):
Yeah, totally, so they can find this curriculum
where.
Dale Lewis (02:26):
It's on scripturesupplycom and when they
open it up and of coursebecause of that it would be
available in 103 differentlanguages, so this would also be
translatable to those on theforeign field, so they would be
able to use it on 103 differentlanguages.
But if they go on ScripturesSupply there'll be other
(02:47):
teachings.
A tab there's the Old Testamentand the New Testament and then
extra teachings.
As you go on there you'll seeit right there listed Barnabas,
and it's not a teaching onBarnabas, it's a teaching
discipleship curriculum.
Bill Holdridge (03:02):
Yeah, yeah, we're not doing a character
study on the man named Barnabas,no, no no, well, of course,
Barnabas means son ofencouragement, so that's really
what this process is all aboutencouraging each other to walk
with the Lord.
Okay, so before we go anyfurther, dale, I think you and I
both agree that there needs tobe somewhat of a disclaimer
(03:23):
about this, concerning how willa process of discipleship be
effective, or what would keep itfrom being effective?
Specifically, Barnabas, what doyou think?
Dale Lewis (03:34):
Yeah, we've talked about this before and I've
certainly mentioned this withother people.
I do it with every candidate,but I think, without a doubt,
that the people that utilizethis material, whether they're
leading the class or part ofthat class, they must remain
teachable and open for their owntransparency.
(03:58):
And then transformation.
It's a transformative process.
Our salvation is atransformative process, but our
sanctification is one from fromglory to glory, degree by degree
, and in other words, this is sorelational that it's radically
different.
Um, you know I said this earlierto you is that it so much of of
(04:21):
our learning is mechanical.
You know it's getting the rightanswer.
Barnabas is about becoming theright person.
That's a whole other level oflearning that we must.
It's mandated biblically thatwe remain that way and continue
open to being changed from thatglory to glory, being changed
(04:49):
from that glory to glory.
And then so if somebody isusing a material that is latent
that way that's what it's reallyabout and then they're not
themselves open to that, thenthey're not going to.
This isn't going to work forthem.
Bill Holdridge (05:00):
So the pastor who takes this curriculum, or
the leader and wants to use itas a process to disciple men,
has to be one of the men.
He has to be one of the guys.
He has to be right there ashungry to learn and as hungry to
grow, as are the other guys inthat group.
Dale Lewis (05:21):
I can even say probably more so.
I can even say probably more sobecause he's modeling that
behavior and people won't followsomebody that's just thinking
they've been arrived.
That's one of the great partsof it.
He has to be the guy that showsand leads the way of what that
looks like, because the otherones have not necessarily seen
it.
Bill Holdridge (05:41):
Yeah, necessarily seen it.
Yeah, you know there's a lot ofstudy going on, research into
what accounts for the number ofpastors are leaving the ministry
these days, because it's a hugenumber and why does that happen
?
And some of the things that arebeing discovered are that,
number one, pastors are notspiritually healthy.
(06:04):
They're not experiencing thejoy of the Lord, they're not
experiencing rest, they're notexperiencing peace, their lives
are caught up in the incrediblydemanding and
impossible-to-fulfillexpectations of pastoral
ministry and it sinks them.
(06:25):
It sinks them spiritually andthere are also oftentimes, as
being discovered, they're nothealthy emotionally and a lot of
times not healthy spiritually.
So you and I had the sameexperience coming into Barnabas.
I came into Barnabas with Cliffas a pastor, I had experienced
(06:48):
an almost total crash inministry because I'd been
operating in the flesh in aspecific way of doing ministry
that just about sunk me.
This was before you startedattending Calvary Chapel and I
was introduced to AuthenticChristianity, a book written by
Ray Steadman, and that bookundid me, frankly.
(07:12):
And then, when I found out thatthere was a way to be discipled
into these things of AuthenticChristianity by Cliff, I jumped
at it.
I was hungry, I had to go intoit, just like any of the other
guys that were hungry to grow.
You know it was for me.
I wanted to grow and I know youhad the same experience.
(07:34):
It was a different situationfor you.
You were a relatively newbeliever and you know you'd not
experienced this kind of thingbefore.
But that's important, isn't it?
To be hungry and teachable yeah, I.
Dale Lewis (07:49):
I think that the thing that we, we, uh I mean
it's like I guess I was talkingto somebody the other night
about this.
I teach a class now.
I call it growing in grace.
It's knowing why you believewhat you believe.
That too will will be onScripture Supply soon.
But I was talking about somebodyabout that very issue, about
the sense that we look atmaturity and we chronologically
(08:14):
base it, don't we?
So if I ask you, well, bill,how long have you known the Lord
?
You will say a chronologicalage Would to God.
That was true with all of us.
But it's not.
Maturity isn't a chronologicalage, it is Christ-likeness, it's
looking more like him.
That's the basis of where wereally are with the Lord, which
(08:39):
is wonderful to hear becausethat never ends, but it's also
frightening because that meansthat we can derail it.
We can stop that maturingprocess by not being authentic,
not being teachable, not beingtransparent.
We can prolong what we couldalready enjoy, and I think
(09:01):
that's so just by the stat youjust said, by pastors.
That's so important that we,our identity and sufficiency is
in Christ alone and not in thecongregation, not in the
denomination, not in your boardor your popularity, which is oh,
that's a horrible one becauseit's a vicious trap.
Bill Holdridge (09:23):
So I concur when you and I did Barnabas, we
started it was a vicious trap.
So I concur, when you and I didBarnabas, we started, it was a
year-long program and we startedwith an all-day retreat.
So the 12 guys that were in thegroup for that semester were
there all day long with eachother and we would start with
(09:43):
sharing our personal storyhowever we wanted to.
And when I led it, I went firstand told my story first.
When Cliff led it and I was inhis group, he started first.
So that's why I started firstwhen I started leading the
groups and you had to be openand real, because not just to
(10:08):
perform a program, but becausethat's the only way that this is
going to be effective for me.
If I'm not real and honest, Ican't grow, and if I'm not real
and honest, the men that I'mtrying to work with are likely
not to catch that vision andgrow themselves.
That's how important it is forus, I think.
Dale Lewis (10:28):
Yeah, I think that authenticity is so rare with men
and the vulnerability thatcomes with that, especially with
those in ministry as a whole.
We're often just as men ingeneral, but in ministry even
more so.
We lack that vulnerabilitybecause it comes at a great risk
, but the reward is so muchworth it.
(10:52):
The risk is that some peopleknow that we're really not all
that great and that there's onlyone that is great and that's
Christ Amen, and that at best,every shepherd is just a
sheepdog.
There's only one shepherd.
Every church has the sameshepherd His name is Jesus.
Only one shepherd.
(11:12):
Every church has the sameshepherd His name is Jesus.
And I think that vulnerabilitythat moves us off the pedestal
that people want to place us onor ones that we want to climb up
to, is removed when we'reauthentic and transparent and
vulnerable.
Bill Holdridge (11:25):
Well said and in reality, even though it seems
risky at first to be that way,it's actually a super winning
combination, not just forourselves, so that we're not
thinking too highly of ourselvesor more highly of ourselves
than we ought to think, but forthe guys that we're with,
because they know in their heartof hearts that we're just men.
(11:48):
But it proves it to them, youknow, and that gives them the
ability to be just men in Christand grow in him.
It's just amazing how it works.
Dale Lewis (12:00):
Yeah, if there's one you know statement we should be
able to make about everybeliever, male or female, and
that is that there should be ahumility and a brokenness in all
of us.
And I'm sorry to say it's ararity in the body of Christ,
especially amongst pastoralleadership.
(12:20):
At times there's an arrogancethat's in the pulpit.
At times it's just certainlynot biblical, but it has to be
broken down if we're going tobecome more like him.
I mean, if there's only onethat had the right to be
boastful, it would have beenChrist.
And yet we see his humility andhis servant heart and those
(12:43):
that were around him all pickedup on that.
That's why we read the pages ofour Bible.
We see men like that that areso authentic and so relatable
and yet a lot of times I'mafraid that we don't see it in
modern evangelicalism.
Bill Holdridge (12:59):
Well, that's encouraging to hear that, just
even right now.
So, pastor, we're talking toyou now and we're talking to you
, leader, who wants to mentormen, using something like
Barnabas as a process.
If you've got the hunger and ifyou're teachable, then what
we're about to say will behelpful to you and what you're
(13:21):
about to embark on will behelpful to you.
Is that a fair statement, dale?
I can just say amen, yes, well,good, well, let's talk about,
then, the process of Barnabas.
We've already hinted at some ofit.
It starts with a day-longretreat, but there are things I
mean, if that's the way we do itIn your case with the 13-week
(13:44):
curriculum.
It wasn't quite the same, butnonetheless it starts with
something like that.
So what's the what of Barnabas?
So what's the what of Barnabas?
What's the what of Barnabas?
We've hinted at it already.
What is it?
Dale Lewis (14:00):
It's becoming more like Christ.
It's best summed up by theforerunner of the Messiah he
must increase, I must decrease,and there is a biblical order
for that that can't be reversed.
I can't decrease so heincreases.
(14:21):
He must increase in my life sothat I can decrease.
It's the what is becoming morelike him.
It's not just having the rightanswers to becoming the right
person.
Bill Holdridge (14:32):
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
So that's the goal, that's whatwe're aiming at and that's what
you and I would both say is amajor earmark of spiritual
maturity is becoming more likeChrist.
In fact, it is the earmark ofspiritual maturity.
Paul said him.
We preach, teaching every man,warning every man in all wisdom
(14:53):
that we may present every manteleos in Christ, or mature,
complete.
Okay, so it's 13 weeks induration, the version of
Barnabas process that you've puttogether.
It comes by invitation from thepastor.
That's how a man is included,he's invited, and we strongly
(15:15):
recommend that that number 12 isa good number, no more than 12
per group.
Dale Lewis (15:20):
Right.
Bill Holdridge (15:20):
So how did that work out for you?
In your 500 times that you'veused this, I've never went over
12.
Dale Lewis (15:29):
And a lot of times it's been all sorts of numbers.
I try to pair off people.
By the way, though, barnabas,in the material is there's a
section on marriage.
I would take single guys.
It's amazing how many of thosesingle guys just really grew in
their understanding whatmarriage was, either because
they maybe had been divorced orthey had never married and they
(15:51):
didn't have good understandingof what marriage looked like.
So it didn't matter whetherthey were single or married.
But I take all various numbersof that equation, so that and
pairing the guys up, that wasalways a fun part too.
Bill Holdridge (16:09):
Yeah, when we started Barnabas, there were six
of us in our church in Monterey.
We started with six and thenafter six months we added
another six guys and they werethe newbies and they paired up
with the old-timers, the guysthat were there for six months,
and we called that arelationship, a mucker
relationship.
Dale Lewis (16:31):
Yeah, still use that word.
Okay, still use that word, yeah.
Bill Holdridge (16:34):
I think it's a Scottish term.
Dale Lewis (16:36):
Yeah.
Bill Holdridge (16:37):
Yeah, kind of like the idea of back-to-back
fighting in a war or somethinglike that.
Dale Lewis (16:42):
I also like the idea that it always carried the idea
of those that work on a ranchor a farm around cattle or sheep
you put it on your muckingboats.
Or farm around cattle or sheep,you put it on your mucking
boats.
I always thought that was.
I don't know if that's wherethat word came from or not, but
it sure is appropriate.
Bill Holdridge (16:57):
It really is.
So no more than 12 per group.
And then there was theinvitation.
So we're wanting to invite men,but we don't want to just
invite any man.
We want to invite men that areready to benefit from this.
Just like Jesus did, heselected 12, and the night
before he selected those 12, hespent all night in prayer to God
(17:21):
.
So I assume that that's what hewas talking to the Father about
was who are these men going tobe?
So we need to invite men whoare what?
What are their characteristics?
Dale Lewis (17:32):
They need to be teachable, they need to be
transparent.
That is so I always called itthe three Ts teachable,
transparent and transparent.
And so they need to first knowthey don't know.
Secondly, they need to be ableto admit openly they don't know.
Know Secondly, they need to beable to admit openly they don't
(17:54):
know.
Bill Holdridge (17:55):
And third, they need to be willing to take what
they don't know but now know toother people.
Oh, that's great.
Teachable, transparent andtransference yeah the three.
T's.
Yeah, Cliff would tell us menof the word people-oriented.
They need to have a heart forpeople.
You can observe that about somemen and then they have to show
some type of pattern offaithfulness.
(18:17):
Are they going to be reliable?
Are they going to do anythingwith it?
So, before we invite, we'reobserving men, aren't we?
Dale Lewis (18:27):
Yeah, and I think that one of the keys with that
is that it doesn't matter wherethey are or how long they've
chronologically known the Lord.
None of those things reallymatter In my case.
Again, I don't know what theheck you were thinking when you
grabbed me at a year old in theLord, but you did, and it didn't
really matter those things.
I think you'll find thesepeople just hanging around.
(18:48):
You'll find these people justhanging around.
There's a sense you get aboutthese guys that you're going to
invite, irrespective of theirbackgrounds or all the other
things.
But you get a sense for thembecause you're around them.
They come to your midweekservice, not just Sunday morning
.
They're part of the men'sprayer group.
(19:09):
They're picking up bulletins orwhatever else, sweeping the
floors.
There's something about themthat you could tell they want
more and usually that comesabout you being a part of
another group where you begin torecognize that.
Bill Holdridge (19:23):
Great, that's great, great stuff.
So we watch these things inmen's lives and then we extend
an invitation to them.
Now, in my case and I'minterested to hear what you
would say about this In my caseI always wanted that invitation
to be individual, so I wouldmeet a man for lunch or at his
(19:44):
workplace or someplace where wecould just talk for about a half
an hour at least and I couldextend the invitation.
How did you do it?
Dale Lewis (19:52):
talk for about a half an hour at least and I
could extend the invitation.
How did you do it?
The same way, it's interesting.
Some of the things over theyears I've seen with it is the
men.
I've never had a hard timefinding men.
They find me and so it's alwaysinteresting.
They just they're Elijah toElijah.
(20:13):
You know they're just kind ofyou can't, can't get rid of them
and they're just always hangingaround.
Or another thing that's beenvery interesting over the years
is is that the guys that weremarried, they were part of
Barnabas.
When their wives started seeingthe radical transformation of
their husband, I started gettingphone calls from other wives
(20:38):
Please take my husband.
And so a lot of times I did,and a lot of times I took guys
that would come in to me formarriage counseling.
I would disciple the men.
So they came in myriads of ways, other churches.
(21:02):
I would get a lot of guys fromother churches that weren't part
of the fellowship that somebodythat I had discipled had
started sharing with them.
So it's amazing the differentways that they would come.
Bill Holdridge (21:15):
But in any case you you looked for those
qualities and thosecharacteristics.
You know, I've met guys thatseemed like they had a hunger.
They were studying the biblevoraciously, they were becoming
fountains of of.
But then when I got to knowthem personally or exchange with
them personally, there wereguys that they just could not
(21:39):
learn anything from anybody else, and I was always terrified for
men like that.
If you can't learn from anotherman, then that's saying
something about how much are youactually going to be learning
from the Holy Spirit.
Dale Lewis (21:57):
Well, that's the thing about knowledge and wisdom
.
Knowledge is the accumulationof information, Wisdom is the
application.
I was always looking for theguy that had wisdom.
He may not know all the Bibleverses, but what he knew he was
seeking to apply.
Bill Holdridge (22:12):
Yeah, there you go.
Knowledge puffs up, but lovebuilds up.
That's the bottom line.
Okay, so then, after theinvitation, you extended that,
but part of the invitationincludes helping them understand
what the commitment is.
What's the commitment to aBarnabas process?
Dale Lewis (22:30):
Right on the beginning table of Barnabas we
have what that commitment levelis.
So when you tap onto that onour website on Scripture, supply
it'll speak about who Barnabaswas.
What is the commitment level?
You know it says initially itsays what is Barnabas?
To learn and practice, how tobe encouraged by Scripture and
(22:53):
how to be better than thattransformative work to encourage
other people and learning topractice the new covenant, which
we explain later to people.
And then growing man-to-man,small group learning from each
other and passing it on.
And then there's actually whatis expected.
(23:14):
We even have a commitment level, we have a confidentiality
agreement.
All that on the first few pagesof Barnabas.
Bill Holdridge (23:24):
Okay, so what is the commitment level?
Dale Lewis (23:27):
Commitment level is to attend each meeting unless an
emergency, and if theysomething came up, they needed
to call.
So this we're talking 13 weeks.
They needed to make 13 meetings.
If they couldn't make it,something came up, they needed
to let their mucker know whoeverthey were paired up with if
they were unable to attend.
(23:48):
And Also they needed to be ontime.
None of this 30 minutes latestuff Be on time.
Do the assignments faithfully,which included meeting your
mucker and dating your wife.
They needed to share in thegroup.
They needed to be transparentto their comfort level, but they
(24:13):
needed to be transparent.
They needed to share againtheir lessons with their spouse
weekly.
They were required to teach andwe told them they needed to
teach their wives within 48hours.
They would all look at me withtheir eyes rolled back in their
head as if I'm being legalistic.
I said look, guys, I say thisbecause you're going to
(24:34):
procrastinate this to the lastday anyway, so I want you to be
intentional about getting itdone.
Teach your wife.
It's your job.
You are the pastor of your home.
Start doing that and then prayfor each one in the group daily,
and that was the commitmentlevel that we had with them.
Bill Holdridge (24:54):
Okay, that's clear enough.
So they had to count the costis what they had to do,
Absolutely, they had to look attheir calendar and say is there
anything coming up that wouldpreclude me from being part of
this?
Exactly, they needed to talk totheir wife and say is this okay
with you, babe, that I do thisOkay.
The whole thing.
They got to clear the deck andthen make the commitment based
(25:16):
on that.
Dale Lewis (25:18):
Yeah, I think a lot of the discipleship stuff that
people do.
You meet with them once a week.
They don't show up.
They show up or it's just heavyladen with information but not
so much transformation, therepeating or memorizing a verse
(25:39):
or something.
To that extent this is a veryrelational aspect.
It's hard to have arelationship if these things
aren't maintained.
Bill Holdridge (25:47):
Yeah, really.
Dale Lewis (25:48):
Any relationship.
Bill Holdridge (25:49):
Yeah, that's right.
I mean, if I say yes, I'm allin, and then my yes becomes no,
that's an integrity issue.
Jeff Jones (25:57):
I haven't learned much, etc.
Bill Holdridge (26:00):
You know all those things.
Okay, so that's the commitment.
Do all the assignments show upand all the things you listed.
And then the goal.
The goal, as you have statedalready, dale to disciple men in
the new covenant, to disciplemen in their marriages, to
disciple men in how to put onthe armor of God and stand
(26:21):
against the spiritual warfarethat certainly comes against
them, how to live authenticallyas a Christian.
Dale Lewis (26:28):
Right, there's also a section that we put in I don't
remember if this is in theoriginal so when it says under
what is expected there was acommitment, then there was also
an accountability and we wouldhold each other accountable.
They would hold me accountable,we'd all hold each other
accountable, and those thingsare equally important.
(26:50):
One of them was in ourdiscussion is that discuss where
you are, not where others are.
Use a pronoun I rather than you.
Don't give advice orsuggestions to someone less
asked.
Support each other.
Help others to share by beingopen yourself.
(27:11):
Meet each other where they are.
Are not trying to change them.
Not your job.
That's the Holy Spirit's job,amen.
These are accountabilityquestions that we wanted that
group to really bond, and thoselack of those six things are
accountability busters.
You know you can't bond ifthose things aren't maintained.
Same thing with confidentiality.
(27:32):
Yeah, men needed to know thatwhat they were sharing with
their muckers wouldn't be sharedwith the group unless
permission was given.
They needed to know that whatwas shared in the group wouldn't
be shared to their wife or toother guys, right?
So all those things are a keypart of that.
Bill Holdridge (27:48):
So practically what that means is that if you
share something in a group andI'm there in that group with you
, I have to go to you and say,Dale, you shared such and such a
thing.
Is it okay if I share that withmy wife?
And you can either give mepermission or not.
Dale Lewis (28:07):
And we even say, yeah, you can say it further.
Let's say that you and I weremuckers.
Yeah, this, yeah, you wouldn'tsay it further.
Let's say that you and I weremuckers yeah.
This wouldn't you couldn'tshare.
If you share something to me, Icouldn't share it within the
group.
There you go.
We wanted that level ofintimacy.
Bill Holdridge (28:21):
Yeah, that's great.
And then, when it comes to thewhole advice section of this,
I'm not going to just throwaround exhortations and give
advice to people during ourmeeting times.
I have to have permission fromthat person or they have to ask
me a question.
So I could say, dale, is itokay if I?
I've got an idea right nowabout what you're saying, is it
(28:44):
okay if I share something withyou?
And then you've got anopportunity to just say yes or
no and I got to be okay with it.
That's right.
But that's a relationalcourtesy Boy.
I bet you.
It's been true of you.
It sure has been of me over theyears.
That has been all by itselfsuch a huge ministry tool.
Yeah, because who says no?
(29:05):
For one thing, and if they dosay yes, you can share something
with me, it automatically putsthem much more in a teachable
mode than they had been before.
Dale Lewis (29:22):
I asked that permission.
Yeah, it opens people up toknow that they have the keys to
unlock that door yeah, and thenit also shows them that you're
not going to violate it.
There's nothing worse.
I've heard this for years inthe church that it's the women
that you're not going to violateit.
There's nothing worse.
I've heard this for years inthe church that it's the women
that are the gossipers.
In my perspective, men are farworse gossipers than women ever
(29:45):
imagined to be.
And again, it's terrible.
But we need to have anenvironment where men especially
men, because we're not told tospeak about our feelings and
emotions and and relationalaspects.
So we need we need a safety tobe able to do that well.
Bill Holdridge (30:03):
So there's another another point about
barnabas and it's all process.
Like you've said, when we cometogether in a barnabas meeting.
Okay, there we are.
We're going to be together fortwo and a half, three hours,
probably, right, whatever thatmight be.
So that first hour is dedicatedtowards just mutual sharing
with each other.
And the way we've learned to dothat is, say, we've got six,
(30:27):
six guys on our little lunchtimeor our mealtime group, we're
eating our sack lunch, and sohow many guys are there?
Six guys.
We've got 60 minutes, so that's10 minutes a guy.
You've got 10 minutes to talkand we're going to give you a
little tea, a little tea fortimeout when you've got a minute
left.
So you'll know you've got towrap this up and you can talk
(30:49):
about anything you want to, butwhile that man is talking,
nobody else is talking.
So what are we learning?
Dale Lewis (30:57):
No checking your phone.
No checking your phone.
Bill Holdridge (31:04):
And we're learning how to listen Right,
which is a hard thing for men tolearn all of us but we're also
learning how to communicate,which our wives crave for us to
be able to communicate with themand give them something of
ourselves, because they'rewilling to give something of
themselves to us, at a drop of ahat usually.
So, boy, what transferableskills those are.
Dale Lewis (31:26):
Yeah, again, I always said the funny thing
throughout the years a universaltruth.
Like I said, I usually get someof the wives, friends of the
wives of the guys that werethere calling me.
Can you take my husband?
I also said about the bakedgoods cookies, cakes.
(31:47):
If the guy was applying theBarnabas material to his wife,
she was thrilled and without ussaying a word, the baked goods
would start coming into theBarnabas meetings Just because
they were so appreciative oftheir husband listening or
dating her or teaching her.
They'd never seen it before.
Bill Holdridge (32:07):
Yeah, and we even provide tools for that.
The dating of our wives.
You know we've got, I knowyou've got a list in the
curriculum that you've used.
Cliff gave a list, you know, Ithink he called it 42 ways to
romance your wife, or somethinglike that.
And these aren't things thatcost anything necessarily Right,
you know they're free.
Dale Lewis (32:27):
They're something that's just intimate, it's
personal, it's a planned,intentional effort on the part
of a husband to spend time withhis wife and a lot of guys men
in general in our society thinkoh, I date my wife, I date the
woman I want to marry, to winher, and then, after I've won
(32:49):
her, I don't need to anymore.
And the reality is that we Idon't need to anymore.
And the reality is, is that we?
I always I told Denise, beforewe got married, I said don't
ever settle for a man that willwin you once.
Settle for the man who will winyou every day the rest of your
life, because that's what Christhas done with us.
He's never stopped winning usand we need to be men if we're
married to continue.
And, by the way, if there's asingle guy out there, if you
(33:12):
desire to be, feel called to bemarried, you won't have any
problem finding somebody thatwants you if you're going to
treat her that way every day ofher life?
Bill Holdridge (33:20):
Absolutely.
You could look like a bassethound and find somebody that
will love you.
Dale Lewis (33:26):
Well, I do and I have.
So there you go, truth positive.
Bill Holdridge (33:32):
You're a good-looking guy, dale, yeah,
anyway.
Yeah, that's all good.
So the marriage part is reallyimportant, and then we report on
our dates during our sessionstogether.
How'd your date go?
So what if a guy doesn't have adate to report on, what does he
do?
Dale Lewis (33:49):
Well, we cut him a slack at the time and we ask him
why, and we don't let it slide.
We, uh we say, look, man, youneed a.
I mean there's things that comeup when I get that you can.
You know, especially guys andyoung families and in the career
and and she's working, and Iunderstand society.
But I think we we say hey, youknow, maybe it's hey, we'll
(34:12):
watch your kids for you so youcan go out.
Or maybe just a date doesn'thave to be financial.
A lot of people you knowthey're on fixed incomes.
It's hard to financially go outand we understand all that.
That's why those we call it 50ways to lead your Okay, and so
pick one of those.
Sometimes I've had guysactually take and read those 50
(34:35):
Things to Wives and that wastheir date.
And I'm just laughing at howcrazy some of those things were.
And my list came fromcounseling sessions.
I would ask couples over theyears what do you consider a
good date?
Bill Holdridge (34:50):
Good question and in.
Dale Lewis (34:51):
Montana, and in Montana some of them were.
If you go out hunting andskinning a deer, we'd be there.
So it just depends on askingpeople what could you consider a
good date?
What would you enjoy?
Going to coffee.
Bill Holdridge (35:06):
Yeah, that's great, that's really great.
Okay, so that's the commitmentand those are the goals, the
process.
So, first of all, the pastorobserves potential candidates
We've talked about that Invitesthem, confirms the commitment of
(35:27):
each candidate that says yes.
So we don't want them to sayyes right on the spot, do we?
We want them to think about it,pray about it, talk to their
wife about it, and then they cancome back with their yes.
And after that, then weactually do what the Barnabas
process is.
So we start with some kind ofan introduction of ourselves to
each other, whether it's at anall-day retreat or you take a
(35:51):
part of the first session forthat type of thing, and then we
move on from there.
How did it go with you?
Dale Lewis (36:00):
Yeah, the same thing .
It's interesting the timeframes I think about recently
that I have done that.
There was a group I did thefirst group I did.
I did not do that and thatgroup I mean they made it
through the 13 weeks but Iwouldn't say it was successful.
But then I learned somethingfrom that, because getting away
from people is challenging attimes.
(36:22):
So what I did is I planned a, ameal and had the guys with
their wives come to the dinner.
I think there was four, sothere's eight total plus Denise
and I 10 people and we had ameal together and after the meal
and during the meal we got toknow each other because I didn't
(36:42):
know them.
It's new in the church.
And then I had fielded questionsabout Barnabas to the wives as
well.
And that group man, was thatever a successful group?
All of them just took off on it.
So it was matter of fact.
(37:03):
One of the guys just called melast week.
He just came on staff at thisparticular church and he was
only two days on staff at thechurch and they had a pastoral
retreat and one of the questionswas what was the most
successful thing, the mostimpactful thing that's happened
to you in the last year and hesaid, barnabas, wow, he said
(37:25):
it's changed my life, okay.
So I think that kind ofconnection, like you said, that
early connection, is somethingthat I at times haven't always
been able to facilitate, becauseI've done this off of, I've
Skyped it to Zoom meetings, I'vedone a lot of different ways
and it's kind of hard to do itwhen you're doing it that way.
(37:46):
I prefer the way that you'vedescribed.
Bill Holdridge (37:50):
Yeah, yeah.
So we get it started that wayhighly relational, like you've
said a couple times during thispodcast and then we just dive
into the weekly schedule andit's a 13-week curriculum and we
just do it.
But that doesn't make it woodenor mechanical, it's highly
relational.
We're talking about things Likeit would be great, wouldn't it,
(38:12):
if we would deliver ourteaching on Sunday and then we
immediately had a post-servicetime where everybody could just
kind of resonate with thematerial, talk about it, ask
their questions.
Well, that's what Barnabas is.
Barnabas allows that to happen.
Dale Lewis (38:30):
Yeah, exactly, and the weeks are self-contained.
I don't encourage people andpretty much tell them not to go
ahead.
You know, each week isself-contained.
At some point in time theyoverlap the different aspects of
Barnabas, which is, of course,the new covenant, the marriage
(38:51):
aspect, spiritual warfare andmaster plan of evangelism.
Those are the four keycomponents and they overlap at
certain times In a few of thoseweeks I think week six or seven
they've got a lot of stuff toget done, but it's not in the
beginning, it's more in themiddle part of that and um.
So you know they'reself-contained.
(39:14):
Is the idea, in other words, thequestions there, and they're
not.
Again, they're not questionsthat are about finding the right
answer.
There are questions that are sorelatable that what you, what
one person, may say is theanswer, may not be the answer
for another person.
They're very specific and thenthey're even asked at some
aspects to dial that downfurther.
(39:36):
In other words, I you know itcould be one of the questions
could deal something with I needto love my wife more.
I would never let him pass withthat.
I'd say how, how, yeah, whatare you going to do?
Bill Holdridge (39:47):
what?
What's the plan?
Dale Lewis (39:48):
Specifically does that look like, and so that's
how we would work it.
Bill Holdridge (39:54):
Aim at nothing, hit nothing.
Dale Lewis (39:56):
Yes.
Bill Holdridge (39:57):
Okay, well, you know, this part of the
discussion reminds me ofsomething Dale, and I remember
this.
This stood out very powerfullyto me with Cliff when he brought
us into his group.
He didn't have an outputexpectation, in other words, he
wasn't discipling us in order tofill a position in the church
(40:20):
program.
It wasn't about that.
There's room for that.
I mean, if somebody's going tobe a church administrator, they
need training, so we disciplethem in admin, whatever.
But this was not that he wanted,and of course, the Holy Spirit
wants us to be conformed intothe image of Christ.
That was the thing.
And he knew that if that becamethe outcome in a man's heart,
(40:45):
he'd find out what his spiritualgifts are eventually and he'd
find out where he can serve andhe'd discover his ministries and
his stewardships, and thatwould happen.
And I so appreciated that thatthere was no well, sometimes,
those kinds of approaches.
There was no manipulativeapproach to it at all.
It was just.
It was me, the Lord Jesus, theHoly Spirit and the other men in
(41:07):
that group.
That's what it was, and HolySpirit and the other men in that
group, that's what it was, andmy wife, of course.
Dale Lewis (41:14):
I think I so agree with that because I see it, I've
seen guys try to use thismaterial and churches, and
particularly probably pastors,as another program because
they're looking for, you know, aleadership manual kind of a
thing.
And again I think there's roomclearly 1 and 2.
(41:34):
Timothy Titus, you know, givesyou some of the qualifications
and a mandate really to go outand disciple people for finding
positions.
But again, this is more gearedtowards becoming the right
person and allowing the Lord todirect them to what position he
may want them at, and allowingthe Lord to direct them to what
position he may want them atInstead of saying no, I have a
guy that's an elder, so I wantyou to you know well, no, let's
(41:59):
just get the guy healthyspiritually and go in the right
direction.
But I will say that over theyears for me I didn't have
anybody on my board or inleadership that I didn't
personally disciple.
What an advantage I mean, I usethat as a pool basis all the
time, but I didn't do itinitially because they were an
elder.
They became that after spendingthat much time mentoring them.
Bill Holdridge (42:24):
Yeah, that's golden right there.
That's golden Because you havethe same heart, you have the
same mind, you're speaking thesame language.
Dale Lewis (42:32):
Yeah, that philosophy of ministry I didn't
want yes-men, but we needed toshare the same philosophy.
If we don't share the samephilosophy, you're just going to
pull apart.
Yeah yeah, people are one inthat sense, to that philosophy
instead of being, you know beingdivisive or could have been
(42:55):
divisive.
Bill Holdridge (42:55):
So during those 13 weeks a lot of stuff happens,
A lot of growth occurs, Afoundation's been laid for the
rest of our lives and it's allgood and it's a commitment that
is definitely worth it, and menmove forward and their wives
(43:18):
move forward accordingly becauseof what they've learned.
That's what's so great aboutthis approach and this kind of a
training.
If you will, you know, Iremember first hearing the
phrase in this kind of atraining, if you will, you know,
I remember first hearing thephrase New Covenant Living or
something along those lines, andI thought what does that mean?
(43:40):
But it became clear thedifference between the Old
Covenant and New Covenant kindof living.
Basically it's the contrastbetween the flesh and the spirit
.
But these are biblical words.
Paul used them in 2 Corinthians, right, Right and biblical
phrases.
But I remember verbalizingthose things among some of the
(44:01):
people in our tribe and they'dgo what are you talking about?
Is this a cult that you're partof?
No worries, we're just dealingwith something that's in the
Bible.
So we do the 13-week curriculumand at the end of it there's an
acknowledgement that this partof it is finished, and so on and
(44:24):
so forth.
What's next for the guys afterthat?
Dale Lewis (44:28):
Well, it's always the thing that challenges what
to do after the 13, because that13-week for these men, some of
them, it's always the thing thatchallenges what to do after the
13th, because that 13th weekfor these men, some of them,
it's just so life-changingrelationally with other men.
And so I have guys right nowthat they still, in all the
places I've been, they stillcontact me on a regular basis.
(44:48):
They still meet with theirmucker.
It's an amazing thing and theystill.
You know, I call every monththe pastor now in Montana every
month I call him just to chatand it's sort of the you and the
cliff thing.
You know we still have theserelationships so that doesn't
(45:10):
end as it relates to the body ofChrist and to your life.
My first wife, donna, said itwell, she used to always say to
me she goes, isn't it about timeyou go through another Barnabas
?
And her statement was basicallyyou know, you're kind of
letting some of these thingsslide about dating your wife and
teaching her.
Jeff Jones (45:29):
You know, Okay, there we go.
Dale Lewis (45:30):
And so I really encourage guys that have been
through Barnabas to now be partof that group of discipling
others.
It's that last phase oftransference, and so I encourage
them throughout this time tostart looking for men that you
can disciple.
And right now in this churchthat I'm attending here that you
(45:50):
can disciple.
And right now on this churchthat I'm attending here, I think
there's about I don't knowmaybe four or five guys that are
discipling other people rightnow, and so that's what I want
to see happen, and so thatbecomes what I call the 14th
week.
You know, they start gettinginvolved and doing that.
Some of the guys begin to see,like I said, one guy that I just
(46:14):
finished here about six monthsago, eight months ago, he is now
on staff of this church.
He just got put on staff, sosome of them go into ministry,
which is always wonderful to see.
Bill Holdridge (46:26):
Well, like the current pastor at Bitterroot
Calvary Chapel, Bill Daly.
He was discipled by you for 13weeks in Seattle, Washington.
Dale Lewis (46:37):
That's right, yeah, and then mentored further into
ministry.
But yeah, I think you see allof that.
The other thing I like to dowith these guys is and this is
again something pastors can havea lead way of doing but if you
don't have a men's study or amen's Bible study or a men's
group, that can facilitatesomething really cool as well,
(46:58):
because that can be a landingspot for some of those guys that
maybe not yet ready, but italso can be a hunting ground for
guys that you might want tograb for the next ground.
Bill Holdridge (47:08):
There you go.
There you go, because we'realways looking.
Dale Lewis (47:15):
Because I am doing right now four studies a week
here.
So much for retirement, but I'mteaching four studies a week.
I have a study on Friday nighthere in the Gospel of Luke.
I have a marriage class I'mdoing on Sunday mornings.
I have a men's study on thelife of David on Sunday night
and growing in grace on Sundaynight.
So I have a lot of things thatI'm always looking for those
(47:36):
guys, and if you have a men'sgroup or something you can plug
them into, it's just a really,and I facilitate that men's
group.
I don't teach it per se, Ifacilitate it.
So it has that Barnabas feel toit, but they're familiar with
it.
Yeah, that's great.
And then, hopefully, I'll workmyself out of jobs, I'll turn it
loose and say, hey, why don'tyou take tonight?
(47:57):
So then they can get their feetwet a little bit that way too,
if they have teaching giftingsor other aspects of ministry.
Bill Holdridge (48:05):
So you've probably told them along the way
that, hey, just watch closelywhat I'm doing, because if
you've got this gift ofleadership, you're going to do
it too someday.
Dale Lewis (48:15):
Yeah, I encourage them right away really,
hopefully.
Of course, what they're doingby teaching their wife is
discipling their wife.
So they're doing.
They already have somebodythey're already discipling.
They may not be aware of thatyet, but they're doing their
wife if they're married rightaway.
But you know to look for thenext guy.
Jeff Jones (48:33):
Yeah.
Dale Lewis (48:34):
And that's always the goal, because, you know, the
trouble is that it can bebottlenecked.
If it's dependent upon Bill orDale, it's limited, but if we
each had 10 guys, we discipled,and let's say, five of those 10
discipled other men, this thingwould spread like wildfire.
Bill Holdridge (48:53):
Oh, it's multiplication rather than
addition.
Dale Lewis (48:55):
That's right.
Bill Holdridge (48:55):
Yeah, the math of that is staggering.
Dale Lewis (48:58):
Yeah, and that's how you can effectively change the
dynamic of the church globally.
Bill Holdridge (49:06):
Absolutely.
Not just locally.
Totally agree, totally agree.
Well, we've had so much toshare, dale, and I think it's
time to wrap this up, but thanksso much for joining us and
sharing what you've learned overthe years, because this is
golden.
I'm going to be praying and I'msure you are too, for this to
(49:26):
reach the ears of those that theHoly Spirit wants it to reach,
and we'll see what happens.
But to access again thecurriculum, one must go to
scripturesupplycom, follow theteaching links, special subjects
, and then you'll find Barnabas.
Click on that and that's thecurriculum.
My question, though you've alsogot the entire curriculum in a
(49:49):
PDF format.
I have a copy of that.
I think my copy is probablyclose to what you have now, but
would it be possible for us toinclude a download link to the
PDF copy of the curriculum aswell?
Dale Lewis (50:04):
Yes, you can certainly do the PDF.
So they can do that and, by theway, the material is all.
Everything on that site is 100%free.
You don't need any permissionto grab it and steal anything
you want not stealing it becauseit's not mine, but they can
take whatever they want that wayand utilize for any way they
(50:25):
feel led to utilize it.
So the material is there,wonderful, and they can grab it.
Bill Holdridge (50:31):
So how can a pastor or a leader, a would-be
men's disciple, how can they getin touch with you, Dale?
How would you like that tohappen?
Dale Lewis (50:41):
They can email me.
There's an email address onScripture Supply.
They can also email and I thinkyou sent that out last time my
email address, so you can tagthat if you want.
They can contact that way.
Bill Holdridge (50:54):
Okay.
Dale Lewis (50:55):
And if they have specific questions.
Some of them have called me ortexted me, whatever they want to
do.
That way I can be.
You know, I'm repurposed so Ihave more time to do some of
those things.
Between four studies a week Ican do that, that's good.
Bill Holdridge (51:14):
Okay, that sounds great.
Well, to wrap this up, we'vebeen listening to and talking
with Pastor Dale Lewis.
He lives in Navarre, florida,retired from two long Calvary
Chapel pastorates, but notretired from ministry in any
stretch of the imagination.
As you've heard, we've beentalking about Barnabas, which is
(51:35):
a process of developing men andhelping them become more
conformed into the image ofChrist.
So, again, thanks to Dale Lewisfor joining us and reach out to
him.
All of this information will bein the show notes and you can
take it from there.
And we'd love to have feedbackfrom you, by the way, as to what
(51:56):
the Lord is doing.
It would be wonderful to hearsome of those stories, because
we want what happens to be Godthings, we want them to be God
moments, god experiences.
So feel free to share that withus as well, and the show notes
will be available, like I said,and the announcer will give you
(52:16):
information as to how to reachout to Poimen Ministries.
God bless you and thanks forjoining us on Strength for
Today's Pastor.
Jeff Jones (52:24):
Strength for Today's Pastor is sponsored by Pointman
Ministries.
You can find us atpoimenministries.
com.
That's spelled POIMENMinistries.
com.
If something in today's programprompts a question or comment,
or if you have a topic idea fora future episode, just shoot us
an email atstrongerpastors@gmail.
com.
That's strongerpastors@gmail.
(52:46):
com.
May the Lord bless you as youserve him, His pastors and His
church.
Welcome to Strength for Today's Pastor conversations
with current senior pastors andleaders which will strengthen
and help you in your pastoralministry.
And now here's your host, billHoldridge of Poiman Ministries.
Bill Holdridge (00:23):
Welcome to Podcast 171.
Today, once again, we're withPastor Dale Lewis.
We last had Dale for Podcast168, and we entitled that
podcast episode Dale Lewis aPastor you Need to Know, and I
firmly believe that he's apastor you need to know.
But in that podcast Dale spokeabout Barnabas, which is the
(00:47):
name of the men's discipleshipclass that he has been using
over the years to disciplesomewhere around 500 men.
And Dale learned it from mewhen I pastored in Monterey,
california, and I learned itfrom Cliff Stabler, a local
pastor in Monterey who discipledme, and Cliff had been
discipled by Ray Stedman, thewell-known author, who's now in
(01:11):
heaven, and Ray Stedman had beendiscipled by Harry Ironside and
J Vernon McGee.
Well, all that's kind of alead-in to what we're going to
be talking about, because theBarnabas discipleship process
really had its genesis withthese men.
So I've reached out to Dale tocircle back with me to break
(01:31):
down the how-to of Barnabas, andthe reason for that is that
Dale has taken what was ayear-long program when we did it
together back in Monterey.
He took it and made a 13-weekdiscipleship process for the
(01:52):
church that he pastored in theBitterroot Valley in Montana,
and so he's really done a greatjob with that whole thing.
So anyway, welcome to theprogram Dale with all that long
introduction.
Dale Lewis (02:06):
It's great to see you again, bill.
It's good to be back with youand the listeners, and such a
blessing to be able to make thisits own standalone podcast
about mentoring men anddiscipling men such a needed
asset for anybody in ministry.
Bill Holdridge (02:20):
Yeah, totally, so they can find this curriculum
where.
Dale Lewis (02:26):
It's on scripturesupplycom and when they
open it up and of coursebecause of that it would be
available in 103 differentlanguages, so this would also be
translatable to those on theforeign field, so they would be
able to use it on 103 differentlanguages.
But if they go on ScripturesSupply there'll be other
(02:47):
teachings.
A tab there's the Old Testamentand the New Testament and then
extra teachings.
As you go on there you'll seeit right there listed Barnabas,
and it's not a teaching onBarnabas, it's a teaching
discipleship curriculum.
Bill Holdridge (03:02):
Yeah, yeah, we're not doing a character
study on the man named Barnabas,no, no no, well, of course,
Barnabas means son ofencouragement, so that's really
what this process is all aboutencouraging each other to walk
with the Lord.
Okay, so before we go anyfurther, dale, I think you and I
both agree that there needs tobe somewhat of a disclaimer
(03:23):
about this, concerning how willa process of discipleship be
effective, or what would keep itfrom being effective?
Specifically, Barnabas, what doyou think?
Dale Lewis (03:34):
Yeah, we've talked about this before and I've
certainly mentioned this withother people.
I do it with every candidate,but I think, without a doubt,
that the people that utilizethis material, whether they're
leading the class or part ofthat class, they must remain
teachable and open for their owntransparency.
(03:58):
And then transformation.
It's a transformative process.
Our salvation is atransformative process, but our
sanctification is one from fromglory to glory, degree by degree
, and in other words, this is sorelational that it's radically
different.
Um, you know I said this earlierto you is that it so much of of
(04:21):
our learning is mechanical.
You know it's getting the rightanswer.
Barnabas is about becoming theright person.
That's a whole other level oflearning that we must.
It's mandated biblically thatwe remain that way and continue
open to being changed from thatglory to glory, being changed
(04:49):
from that glory to glory.
And then so if somebody isusing a material that is latent
that way that's what it's reallyabout and then they're not
themselves open to that, thenthey're not going to.
This isn't going to work forthem.
Bill Holdridge (05:00):
So the pastor who takes this curriculum, or
the leader and wants to use itas a process to disciple men,
has to be one of the men.
He has to be one of the guys.
He has to be right there ashungry to learn and as hungry to
grow, as are the other guys inthat group.
Dale Lewis (05:21):
I can even say probably more so.
I can even say probably more sobecause he's modeling that
behavior and people won't followsomebody that's just thinking
they've been arrived.
That's one of the great partsof it.
He has to be the guy that showsand leads the way of what that
looks like, because the otherones have not necessarily seen
it.
Bill Holdridge (05:41):
Yeah, necessarily seen it.
Yeah, you know there's a lot ofstudy going on, research into
what accounts for the number ofpastors are leaving the ministry
these days, because it's a hugenumber and why does that happen
?
And some of the things that arebeing discovered are that,
number one, pastors are notspiritually healthy.
(06:04):
They're not experiencing thejoy of the Lord, they're not
experiencing rest, they're notexperiencing peace, their lives
are caught up in the incrediblydemanding and
impossible-to-fulfillexpectations of pastoral
ministry and it sinks them.
(06:25):
It sinks them spiritually andthere are also oftentimes, as
being discovered, they're nothealthy emotionally and a lot of
times not healthy spiritually.
So you and I had the sameexperience coming into Barnabas.
I came into Barnabas with Cliffas a pastor, I had experienced
(06:48):
an almost total crash inministry because I'd been
operating in the flesh in aspecific way of doing ministry
that just about sunk me.
This was before you startedattending Calvary Chapel and I
was introduced to AuthenticChristianity, a book written by
Ray Steadman, and that bookundid me, frankly.
(07:12):
And then, when I found out thatthere was a way to be discipled
into these things of AuthenticChristianity by Cliff, I jumped
at it.
I was hungry, I had to go intoit, just like any of the other
guys that were hungry to grow.
You know it was for me.
I wanted to grow and I know youhad the same experience.
(07:34):
It was a different situationfor you.
You were a relatively newbeliever and you know you'd not
experienced this kind of thingbefore.
But that's important, isn't it?
To be hungry and teachable yeah, I.
Dale Lewis (07:49):
I think that the thing that we, we, uh I mean
it's like I guess I was talkingto somebody the other night
about this.
I teach a class now.
I call it growing in grace.
It's knowing why you believewhat you believe.
That too will will be onScripture Supply soon.
But I was talking about somebodyabout that very issue, about
the sense that we look atmaturity and we chronologically
(08:14):
base it, don't we?
So if I ask you, well, bill,how long have you known the Lord
?
You will say a chronologicalage Would to God.
That was true with all of us.
But it's not.
Maturity isn't a chronologicalage, it is Christ-likeness, it's
looking more like him.
That's the basis of where wereally are with the Lord, which
(08:39):
is wonderful to hear becausethat never ends, but it's also
frightening because that meansthat we can derail it.
We can stop that maturingprocess by not being authentic,
not being teachable, not beingtransparent.
We can prolong what we couldalready enjoy, and I think
(09:01):
that's so just by the stat youjust said, by pastors.
That's so important that we,our identity and sufficiency is
in Christ alone and not in thecongregation, not in the
denomination, not in your boardor your popularity, which is oh,
that's a horrible one becauseit's a vicious trap.
Bill Holdridge (09:23):
So I concur when you and I did Barnabas, we
started it was a vicious trap.
So I concur, when you and I didBarnabas, we started, it was a
year-long program and we startedwith an all-day retreat.
So the 12 guys that were in thegroup for that semester were
there all day long with eachother and we would start with
(09:43):
sharing our personal storyhowever we wanted to.
And when I led it, I went firstand told my story first.
When Cliff led it and I was inhis group, he started first.
So that's why I started firstwhen I started leading the
groups and you had to be openand real, because not just to
(10:08):
perform a program, but becausethat's the only way that this is
going to be effective for me.
If I'm not real and honest, Ican't grow, and if I'm not real
and honest, the men that I'mtrying to work with are likely
not to catch that vision andgrow themselves.
That's how important it is forus, I think.
Dale Lewis (10:28):
Yeah, I think that authenticity is so rare with men
and the vulnerability thatcomes with that, especially with
those in ministry as a whole.
We're often just as men ingeneral, but in ministry even
more so.
We lack that vulnerabilitybecause it comes at a great risk
, but the reward is so muchworth it.
(10:52):
The risk is that some peopleknow that we're really not all
that great and that there's onlyone that is great and that's
Christ Amen, and that at best,every shepherd is just a
sheepdog.
There's only one shepherd.
Every church has the sameshepherd His name is Jesus.
Only one shepherd.
(11:12):
Every church has the sameshepherd His name is Jesus.
And I think that vulnerabilitythat moves us off the pedestal
that people want to place us onor ones that we want to climb up
to, is removed when we'reauthentic and transparent and
vulnerable.
Bill Holdridge (11:25):
Well said and in reality, even though it seems
risky at first to be that way,it's actually a super winning
combination, not just forourselves, so that we're not
thinking too highly of ourselvesor more highly of ourselves
than we ought to think, but forthe guys that we're with,
because they know in their heartof hearts that we're just men.
(11:48):
But it proves it to them, youknow, and that gives them the
ability to be just men in Christand grow in him.
It's just amazing how it works.
Dale Lewis (12:00):
Yeah, if there's one you know statement we should be
able to make about everybeliever, male or female, and
that is that there should be ahumility and a brokenness in all
of us.
And I'm sorry to say it's ararity in the body of Christ,
especially amongst pastoralleadership.
(12:20):
At times there's an arrogancethat's in the pulpit.
At times it's just certainlynot biblical, but it has to be
broken down if we're going tobecome more like him.
I mean, if there's only onethat had the right to be
boastful, it would have beenChrist.
And yet we see his humility andhis servant heart and those
(12:43):
that were around him all pickedup on that.
That's why we read the pages ofour Bible.
We see men like that that areso authentic and so relatable
and yet a lot of times I'mafraid that we don't see it in
modern evangelicalism.
Bill Holdridge (12:59):
Well, that's encouraging to hear that, just
even right now.
So, pastor, we're talking toyou now and we're talking to you
, leader, who wants to mentormen, using something like
Barnabas as a process.
If you've got the hunger and ifyou're teachable, then what
we're about to say will behelpful to you and what you're
(13:21):
about to embark on will behelpful to you.
Is that a fair statement, dale?
I can just say amen, yes, well,good, well, let's talk about,
then, the process of Barnabas.
We've already hinted at some ofit.
It starts with a day-longretreat, but there are things I
mean, if that's the way we do itIn your case with the 13-week
(13:44):
curriculum.
It wasn't quite the same, butnonetheless it starts with
something like that.
So what's the what of Barnabas?
So what's the what of Barnabas?
What's the what of Barnabas?
We've hinted at it already.
What is it?
Dale Lewis (14:00):
It's becoming more like Christ.
It's best summed up by theforerunner of the Messiah he
must increase, I must decrease,and there is a biblical order
for that that can't be reversed.
I can't decrease so heincreases.
(14:21):
He must increase in my life sothat I can decrease.
It's the what is becoming morelike him.
It's not just having the rightanswers to becoming the right
person.
Bill Holdridge (14:32):
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
So that's the goal, that's whatwe're aiming at and that's what
you and I would both say is amajor earmark of spiritual
maturity is becoming more likeChrist.
In fact, it is the earmark ofspiritual maturity.
Paul said him.
We preach, teaching every man,warning every man in all wisdom
(14:53):
that we may present every manteleos in Christ, or mature,
complete.
Okay, so it's 13 weeks induration, the version of
Barnabas process that you've puttogether.
It comes by invitation from thepastor.
That's how a man is included,he's invited, and we strongly
(15:15):
recommend that that number 12 isa good number, no more than 12
per group.
Dale Lewis (15:20):
Right.
Bill Holdridge (15:20):
So how did that work out for you?
In your 500 times that you'veused this, I've never went over
12.
Dale Lewis (15:29):
And a lot of times it's been all sorts of numbers.
I try to pair off people.
By the way, though, barnabas,in the material is there's a
section on marriage.
I would take single guys.
It's amazing how many of thosesingle guys just really grew in
their understanding whatmarriage was, either because
they maybe had been divorced orthey had never married and they
(15:51):
didn't have good understandingof what marriage looked like.
So it didn't matter whetherthey were single or married.
But I take all various numbersof that equation, so that and
pairing the guys up, that wasalways a fun part too.
Bill Holdridge (16:09):
Yeah, when we started Barnabas, there were six
of us in our church in Monterey.
We started with six and thenafter six months we added
another six guys and they werethe newbies and they paired up
with the old-timers, the guysthat were there for six months,
and we called that arelationship, a mucker
relationship.
Dale Lewis (16:31):
Yeah, still use that word.
Okay, still use that word, yeah.
Bill Holdridge (16:34):
I think it's a Scottish term.
Dale Lewis (16:36):
Yeah.
Bill Holdridge (16:37):
Yeah, kind of like the idea of back-to-back
fighting in a war or somethinglike that.
Dale Lewis (16:42):
I also like the idea that it always carried the idea
of those that work on a ranchor a farm around cattle or sheep
you put it on your muckingboats.
Or farm around cattle or sheep,you put it on your mucking
boats.
I always thought that was.
I don't know if that's wherethat word came from or not, but
it sure is appropriate.
Bill Holdridge (16:57):
It really is.
So no more than 12 per group.
And then there was theinvitation.
So we're wanting to invite men,but we don't want to just
invite any man.
We want to invite men that areready to benefit from this.
Just like Jesus did, heselected 12, and the night
before he selected those 12, hespent all night in prayer to God
(17:21):
.
So I assume that that's what hewas talking to the Father about
was who are these men going tobe?
So we need to invite men whoare what?
What are their characteristics?
Dale Lewis (17:32):
They need to be teachable, they need to be
transparent.
That is so I always called itthe three Ts teachable,
transparent and transparent.
And so they need to first knowthey don't know.
Secondly, they need to be ableto admit openly they don't know.
Know Secondly, they need to beable to admit openly they don't
(17:54):
know.
Bill Holdridge (17:55):
And third, they need to be willing to take what
they don't know but now know toother people.
Oh, that's great.
Teachable, transparent andtransference yeah the three.
T's.
Yeah, Cliff would tell us menof the word people-oriented.
They need to have a heart forpeople.
You can observe that about somemen and then they have to show
some type of pattern offaithfulness.
(18:17):
Are they going to be reliable?
Are they going to do anythingwith it?
So, before we invite, we'reobserving men, aren't we?
Dale Lewis (18:27):
Yeah, and I think that one of the keys with that
is that it doesn't matter wherethey are or how long they've
chronologically known the Lord.
None of those things reallymatter In my case.
Again, I don't know what theheck you were thinking when you
grabbed me at a year old in theLord, but you did, and it didn't
really matter those things.
I think you'll find thesepeople just hanging around.
(18:48):
You'll find these people justhanging around.
There's a sense you get aboutthese guys that you're going to
invite, irrespective of theirbackgrounds or all the other
things.
But you get a sense for thembecause you're around them.
They come to your midweekservice, not just Sunday morning
.
They're part of the men'sprayer group.
(19:09):
They're picking up bulletins orwhatever else, sweeping the
floors.
There's something about themthat you could tell they want
more and usually that comesabout you being a part of
another group where you begin torecognize that.
Bill Holdridge (19:23):
Great, that's great, great stuff.
So we watch these things inmen's lives and then we extend
an invitation to them.
Now, in my case and I'minterested to hear what you
would say about this In my caseI always wanted that invitation
to be individual, so I wouldmeet a man for lunch or at his
(19:44):
workplace or someplace where wecould just talk for about a half
an hour at least and I couldextend the invitation.
How did you do it?
Dale Lewis (19:52):
talk for about a half an hour at least and I
could extend the invitation.
How did you do it?
The same way, it's interesting.
Some of the things over theyears I've seen with it is the
men.
I've never had a hard timefinding men.
They find me and so it's alwaysinteresting.
They just they're Elijah toElijah.
(20:13):
You know they're just kind ofyou can't, can't get rid of them
and they're just always hangingaround.
Or another thing that's beenvery interesting over the years
is is that the guys that weremarried, they were part of
Barnabas.
When their wives started seeingthe radical transformation of
their husband, I started gettingphone calls from other wives
(20:38):
Please take my husband.
And so a lot of times I did,and a lot of times I took guys
that would come in to me formarriage counseling.
I would disciple the men.
So they came in myriads of ways, other churches.
(21:02):
I would get a lot of guys fromother churches that weren't part
of the fellowship that somebodythat I had discipled had
started sharing with them.
So it's amazing the differentways that they would come.
Bill Holdridge (21:15):
But in any case you you looked for those
qualities and thosecharacteristics.
You know, I've met guys thatseemed like they had a hunger.
They were studying the biblevoraciously, they were becoming
fountains of of.
But then when I got to knowthem personally or exchange with
them personally, there wereguys that they just could not
(21:39):
learn anything from anybody else, and I was always terrified for
men like that.
If you can't learn from anotherman, then that's saying
something about how much are youactually going to be learning
from the Holy Spirit.
Dale Lewis (21:57):
Well, that's the thing about knowledge and wisdom
.
Knowledge is the accumulationof information, Wisdom is the
application.
I was always looking for theguy that had wisdom.
He may not know all the Bibleverses, but what he knew he was
seeking to apply.
Bill Holdridge (22:12):
Yeah, there you go.
Knowledge puffs up, but lovebuilds up.
That's the bottom line.
Okay, so then, after theinvitation, you extended that,
but part of the invitationincludes helping them understand
what the commitment is.
What's the commitment to aBarnabas process?
Dale Lewis (22:30):
Right on the beginning table of Barnabas we
have what that commitment levelis.
So when you tap onto that onour website on Scripture, supply
it'll speak about who Barnabaswas.
What is the commitment level?
You know it says initially itsays what is Barnabas?
To learn and practice, how tobe encouraged by Scripture and
(22:53):
how to be better than thattransformative work to encourage
other people and learning topractice the new covenant, which
we explain later to people.
And then growing man-to-man,small group learning from each
other and passing it on.
And then there's actually whatis expected.
(23:14):
We even have a commitment level, we have a confidentiality
agreement.
All that on the first few pagesof Barnabas.
Bill Holdridge (23:24):
Okay, so what is the commitment level?
Dale Lewis (23:27):
Commitment level is to attend each meeting unless an
emergency, and if theysomething came up, they needed
to call.
So this we're talking 13 weeks.
They needed to make 13 meetings.
If they couldn't make it,something came up, they needed
to let their mucker know whoeverthey were paired up with if
they were unable to attend.
(23:48):
And Also they needed to be ontime.
None of this 30 minutes latestuff Be on time.
Do the assignments faithfully,which included meeting your
mucker and dating your wife.
They needed to share in thegroup.
They needed to be transparentto their comfort level, but they
(24:13):
needed to be transparent.
They needed to share againtheir lessons with their spouse
weekly.
They were required to teach andwe told them they needed to
teach their wives within 48hours.
They would all look at me withtheir eyes rolled back in their
head as if I'm being legalistic.
I said look, guys, I say thisbecause you're going to
(24:34):
procrastinate this to the lastday anyway, so I want you to be
intentional about getting itdone.
Teach your wife.
It's your job.
You are the pastor of your home.
Start doing that and then prayfor each one in the group daily,
and that was the commitmentlevel that we had with them.
Bill Holdridge (24:54):
Okay, that's clear enough.
So they had to count the costis what they had to do,
Absolutely, they had to look attheir calendar and say is there
anything coming up that wouldpreclude me from being part of
this?
Exactly, they needed to talk totheir wife and say is this okay
with you, babe, that I do thisOkay.
The whole thing.
They got to clear the deck andthen make the commitment based
(25:16):
on that.
Dale Lewis (25:18):
Yeah, I think a lot of the discipleship stuff that
people do.
You meet with them once a week.
They don't show up.
They show up or it's just heavyladen with information but not
so much transformation, therepeating or memorizing a verse
(25:39):
or something.
To that extent this is a veryrelational aspect.
It's hard to have arelationship if these things
aren't maintained.
Bill Holdridge (25:47):
Yeah, really.
Dale Lewis (25:48):
Any relationship.
Bill Holdridge (25:49):
Yeah, that's right.
I mean, if I say yes, I'm allin, and then my yes becomes no,
that's an integrity issue.
Jeff Jones (25:57):
I haven't learned much, etc.
Bill Holdridge (26:00):
You know all those things.
Okay, so that's the commitment.
Do all the assignments show upand all the things you listed.
And then the goal.
The goal, as you have statedalready, dale to disciple men in
the new covenant, to disciplemen in their marriages, to
disciple men in how to put onthe armor of God and stand
(26:21):
against the spiritual warfarethat certainly comes against
them, how to live authenticallyas a Christian.
Dale Lewis (26:28):
Right, there's also a section that we put in I don't
remember if this is in theoriginal so when it says under
what is expected there was acommitment, then there was also
an accountability and we wouldhold each other accountable.
They would hold me accountable,we'd all hold each other
accountable, and those thingsare equally important.
(26:50):
One of them was in ourdiscussion is that discuss where
you are, not where others are.
Use a pronoun I rather than you.
Don't give advice orsuggestions to someone less
asked.
Support each other.
Help others to share by beingopen yourself.
(27:11):
Meet each other where they are.
Are not trying to change them.
Not your job.
That's the Holy Spirit's job,amen.
These are accountabilityquestions that we wanted that
group to really bond, and thoselack of those six things are
accountability busters.
You know you can't bond ifthose things aren't maintained.
Same thing with confidentiality.
(27:32):
Yeah, men needed to know thatwhat they were sharing with
their muckers wouldn't be sharedwith the group unless
permission was given.
They needed to know that whatwas shared in the group wouldn't
be shared to their wife or toother guys, right?
So all those things are a keypart of that.
Bill Holdridge (27:48):
So practically what that means is that if you
share something in a group andI'm there in that group with you
, I have to go to you and say,Dale, you shared such and such a
thing.
Is it okay if I share that withmy wife?
And you can either give mepermission or not.
Dale Lewis (28:07):
And we even say, yeah, you can say it further.
Let's say that you and I weremuckers.
Yeah, this, yeah, you wouldn'tsay it further.
Let's say that you and I weremuckers yeah.
This wouldn't you couldn'tshare.
If you share something to me, Icouldn't share it within the
group.
There you go.
We wanted that level ofintimacy.
Bill Holdridge (28:21):
Yeah, that's great.
And then, when it comes to thewhole advice section of this,
I'm not going to just throwaround exhortations and give
advice to people during ourmeeting times.
I have to have permission fromthat person or they have to ask
me a question.
So I could say, dale, is itokay if I?
I've got an idea right nowabout what you're saying, is it
(28:44):
okay if I share something withyou?
And then you've got anopportunity to just say yes or
no and I got to be okay with it.
That's right.
But that's a relationalcourtesy Boy.
I bet you.
It's been true of you.
It sure has been of me over theyears.
That has been all by itselfsuch a huge ministry tool.
Yeah, because who says no?
(29:05):
For one thing, and if they dosay yes, you can share something
with me, it automatically putsthem much more in a teachable
mode than they had been before.
Dale Lewis (29:22):
I asked that permission.
Yeah, it opens people up toknow that they have the keys to
unlock that door yeah, and thenit also shows them that you're
not going to violate it.
There's nothing worse.
I've heard this for years inthe church that it's the women
that you're not going to violateit.
There's nothing worse.
I've heard this for years inthe church that it's the women
that are the gossipers.
In my perspective, men are farworse gossipers than women ever
(29:45):
imagined to be.
And again, it's terrible.
But we need to have anenvironment where men especially
men, because we're not told tospeak about our feelings and
emotions and and relationalaspects.
So we need we need a safety tobe able to do that well.
Bill Holdridge (30:03):
So there's another another point about
barnabas and it's all process.
Like you've said, when we cometogether in a barnabas meeting.
Okay, there we are.
We're going to be together fortwo and a half, three hours,
probably, right, whatever thatmight be.
So that first hour is dedicatedtowards just mutual sharing
with each other.
And the way we've learned to dothat is, say, we've got six,
(30:27):
six guys on our little lunchtimeor our mealtime group, we're
eating our sack lunch, and sohow many guys are there?
Six guys.
We've got 60 minutes, so that's10 minutes a guy.
You've got 10 minutes to talkand we're going to give you a
little tea, a little tea fortimeout when you've got a minute
left.
So you'll know you've got towrap this up and you can talk
(30:49):
about anything you want to, butwhile that man is talking,
nobody else is talking.
So what are we learning?
Dale Lewis (30:57):
No checking your phone.
No checking your phone.
Bill Holdridge (31:04):
And we're learning how to listen Right,
which is a hard thing for men tolearn all of us but we're also
learning how to communicate,which our wives crave for us to
be able to communicate with themand give them something of
ourselves, because they'rewilling to give something of
themselves to us, at a drop of ahat usually.
So, boy, what transferableskills those are.
Dale Lewis (31:26):
Yeah, again, I always said the funny thing
throughout the years a universaltruth.
Like I said, I usually get someof the wives, friends of the
wives of the guys that werethere calling me.
Can you take my husband?
I also said about the bakedgoods cookies, cakes.
(31:47):
If the guy was applying theBarnabas material to his wife,
she was thrilled and without ussaying a word, the baked goods
would start coming into theBarnabas meetings Just because
they were so appreciative oftheir husband listening or
dating her or teaching her.
They'd never seen it before.
Bill Holdridge (32:07):
Yeah, and we even provide tools for that.
The dating of our wives.
You know we've got, I knowyou've got a list in the
curriculum that you've used.
Cliff gave a list, you know, Ithink he called it 42 ways to
romance your wife, or somethinglike that.
And these aren't things thatcost anything necessarily Right,
you know they're free.
Dale Lewis (32:27):
They're something that's just intimate, it's
personal, it's a planned,intentional effort on the part
of a husband to spend time withhis wife and a lot of guys men
in general in our society thinkoh, I date my wife, I date the
woman I want to marry, to winher, and then, after I've won
(32:49):
her, I don't need to anymore.
And the reality is that we Idon't need to anymore.
And the reality is, is that we?
I always I told Denise, beforewe got married, I said don't
ever settle for a man that willwin you once.
Settle for the man who will winyou every day the rest of your
life, because that's what Christhas done with us.
He's never stopped winning usand we need to be men if we're
married to continue.
And, by the way, if there's asingle guy out there, if you
(33:12):
desire to be, feel called to bemarried, you won't have any
problem finding somebody thatwants you if you're going to
treat her that way every day ofher life?
Bill Holdridge (33:20):
Absolutely.
You could look like a bassethound and find somebody that
will love you.
Dale Lewis (33:26):
Well, I do and I have.
So there you go, truth positive.
Bill Holdridge (33:32):
You're a good-looking guy, dale, yeah,
anyway.
Yeah, that's all good.
So the marriage part is reallyimportant, and then we report on
our dates during our sessionstogether.
How'd your date go?
So what if a guy doesn't have adate to report on, what does he
do?
Dale Lewis (33:49):
Well, we cut him a slack at the time and we ask him
why, and we don't let it slide.
We, uh we say, look, man, youneed a.
I mean there's things that comeup when I get that you can.
You know, especially guys andyoung families and in the career
and and she's working, and Iunderstand society.
But I think we we say hey, youknow, maybe it's hey, we'll
(34:12):
watch your kids for you so youcan go out.
Or maybe just a date doesn'thave to be financial.
A lot of people you knowthey're on fixed incomes.
It's hard to financially go outand we understand all that.
That's why those we call it 50ways to lead your Okay, and so
pick one of those.
Sometimes I've had guysactually take and read those 50
(34:35):
Things to Wives and that wastheir date.
And I'm just laughing at howcrazy some of those things were.
And my list came fromcounseling sessions.
I would ask couples over theyears what do you consider a
good date?
Bill Holdridge (34:50):
Good question and in.
Dale Lewis (34:51):
Montana, and in Montana some of them were.
If you go out hunting andskinning a deer, we'd be there.
So it just depends on askingpeople what could you consider a
good date?
What would you enjoy?
Going to coffee.
Bill Holdridge (35:06):
Yeah, that's great, that's really great.
Okay, so that's the commitmentand those are the goals, the
process.
So, first of all, the pastorobserves potential candidates
We've talked about that Invitesthem, confirms the commitment of
(35:27):
each candidate that says yes.
So we don't want them to sayyes right on the spot, do we?
We want them to think about it,pray about it, talk to their
wife about it, and then they cancome back with their yes.
And after that, then weactually do what the Barnabas
process is.
So we start with some kind ofan introduction of ourselves to
each other, whether it's at anall-day retreat or you take a
(35:51):
part of the first session forthat type of thing, and then we
move on from there.
How did it go with you?
Dale Lewis (36:00):
Yeah, the same thing .
It's interesting the timeframes I think about recently
that I have done that.
There was a group I did thefirst group I did.
I did not do that and thatgroup I mean they made it
through the 13 weeks but Iwouldn't say it was successful.
But then I learned somethingfrom that, because getting away
from people is challenging attimes.
(36:22):
So what I did is I planned a, ameal and had the guys with
their wives come to the dinner.
I think there was four, sothere's eight total plus Denise
and I 10 people and we had ameal together and after the meal
and during the meal we got toknow each other because I didn't
(36:42):
know them.
It's new in the church.
And then I had fielded questionsabout Barnabas to the wives as
well.
And that group man, was thatever a successful group?
All of them just took off on it.
So it was matter of fact.
(37:03):
One of the guys just called melast week.
He just came on staff at thisparticular church and he was
only two days on staff at thechurch and they had a pastoral
retreat and one of the questionswas what was the most
successful thing, the mostimpactful thing that's happened
to you in the last year and hesaid, barnabas, wow, he said
(37:25):
it's changed my life, okay.
So I think that kind ofconnection, like you said, that
early connection, is somethingthat I at times haven't always
been able to facilitate, becauseI've done this off of, I've
Skyped it to Zoom meetings, I'vedone a lot of different ways
and it's kind of hard to do itwhen you're doing it that way.
(37:46):
I prefer the way that you'vedescribed.
Bill Holdridge (37:50):
Yeah, yeah.
So we get it started that wayhighly relational, like you've
said a couple times during thispodcast and then we just dive
into the weekly schedule andit's a 13-week curriculum and we
just do it.
But that doesn't make it woodenor mechanical, it's highly
relational.
We're talking about things Likeit would be great, wouldn't it,
(38:12):
if we would deliver ourteaching on Sunday and then we
immediately had a post-servicetime where everybody could just
kind of resonate with thematerial, talk about it, ask
their questions.
Well, that's what Barnabas is.
Barnabas allows that to happen.
Dale Lewis (38:30):
Yeah, exactly, and the weeks are self-contained.
I don't encourage people andpretty much tell them not to go
ahead.
You know, each week isself-contained.
At some point in time theyoverlap the different aspects of
Barnabas, which is, of course,the new covenant, the marriage
(38:51):
aspect, spiritual warfare andmaster plan of evangelism.
Those are the four keycomponents and they overlap at
certain times In a few of thoseweeks I think week six or seven
they've got a lot of stuff toget done, but it's not in the
beginning, it's more in themiddle part of that and um.
So you know they'reself-contained.
(39:14):
Is the idea, in other words, thequestions there, and they're
not.
Again, they're not questionsthat are about finding the right
answer.
There are questions that are sorelatable that what you, what
one person, may say is theanswer, may not be the answer
for another person.
They're very specific and thenthey're even asked at some
aspects to dial that downfurther.
(39:36):
In other words, I you know itcould be one of the questions
could deal something with I needto love my wife more.
I would never let him pass withthat.
I'd say how, how, yeah, whatare you going to do?
Bill Holdridge (39:47):
what?
What's the plan?
Dale Lewis (39:48):
Specifically does that look like, and so that's
how we would work it.
Bill Holdridge (39:54):
Aim at nothing, hit nothing.
Dale Lewis (39:56):
Yes.
Bill Holdridge (39:57):
Okay, well, you know, this part of the
discussion reminds me ofsomething Dale, and I remember
this.
This stood out very powerfullyto me with Cliff when he brought
us into his group.
He didn't have an outputexpectation, in other words, he
wasn't discipling us in order tofill a position in the church
(40:20):
program.
It wasn't about that.
There's room for that.
I mean, if somebody's going tobe a church administrator, they
need training, so we disciplethem in admin, whatever.
But this was not that he wanted,and of course, the Holy Spirit
wants us to be conformed intothe image of Christ.
That was the thing.
And he knew that if that becamethe outcome in a man's heart,
(40:45):
he'd find out what his spiritualgifts are eventually and he'd
find out where he can serve andhe'd discover his ministries and
his stewardships, and thatwould happen.
And I so appreciated that thatthere was no well, sometimes,
those kinds of approaches.
There was no manipulativeapproach to it at all.
It was just.
It was me, the Lord Jesus, theHoly Spirit and the other men in
(41:07):
that group.
That's what it was, and HolySpirit and the other men in that
group, that's what it was, andmy wife, of course.
Dale Lewis (41:14):
I think I so agree with that because I see it, I've
seen guys try to use thismaterial and churches, and
particularly probably pastors,as another program because
they're looking for, you know, aleadership manual kind of a
thing.
And again I think there's roomclearly 1 and 2.
(41:34):
Timothy Titus, you know, givesyou some of the qualifications
and a mandate really to go outand disciple people for finding
positions.
But again, this is more gearedtowards becoming the right
person and allowing the Lord todirect them to what position he
may want them at, and allowingthe Lord to direct them to what
position he may want them atInstead of saying no, I have a
guy that's an elder, so I wantyou to you know well, no, let's
(41:59):
just get the guy healthyspiritually and go in the right
direction.
But I will say that over theyears for me I didn't have
anybody on my board or inleadership that I didn't
personally disciple.
What an advantage I mean, I usethat as a pool basis all the
time, but I didn't do itinitially because they were an
elder.
They became that after spendingthat much time mentoring them.
Bill Holdridge (42:24):
Yeah, that's golden right there.
That's golden Because you havethe same heart, you have the
same mind, you're speaking thesame language.
Dale Lewis (42:32):
Yeah, that philosophy of ministry I didn't
want yes-men, but we needed toshare the same philosophy.
If we don't share the samephilosophy, you're just going to
pull apart.
Yeah yeah, people are one inthat sense, to that philosophy
instead of being, you know beingdivisive or could have been
(42:55):
divisive.
Bill Holdridge (42:55):
So during those 13 weeks a lot of stuff happens,
A lot of growth occurs, Afoundation's been laid for the
rest of our lives and it's allgood and it's a commitment that
is definitely worth it, and menmove forward and their wives
(43:18):
move forward accordingly becauseof what they've learned.
That's what's so great aboutthis approach and this kind of a
training.
If you will, you know, Iremember first hearing the
phrase in this kind of atraining, if you will, you know,
I remember first hearing thephrase New Covenant Living or
something along those lines, andI thought what does that mean?
(43:40):
But it became clear thedifference between the Old
Covenant and New Covenant kindof living.
Basically it's the contrastbetween the flesh and the spirit
.
But these are biblical words.
Paul used them in 2 Corinthians, right, Right and biblical
phrases.
But I remember verbalizingthose things among some of the
(44:01):
people in our tribe and they'dgo what are you talking about?
Is this a cult that you're partof?
No worries, we're just dealingwith something that's in the
Bible.
So we do the 13-week curriculumand at the end of it there's an
acknowledgement that this partof it is finished, and so on and
(44:24):
so forth.
What's next for the guys afterthat?
Dale Lewis (44:28):
Well, it's always the thing that challenges what
to do after the 13, because that13-week for these men, some of
them, it's always the thing thatchallenges what to do after the
13th, because that 13th weekfor these men, some of them,
it's just so life-changingrelationally with other men.
And so I have guys right nowthat they still, in all the
places I've been, they stillcontact me on a regular basis.
(44:48):
They still meet with theirmucker.
It's an amazing thing and theystill.
You know, I call every monththe pastor now in Montana every
month I call him just to chatand it's sort of the you and the
cliff thing.
You know we still have theserelationships so that doesn't
(45:10):
end as it relates to the body ofChrist and to your life.
My first wife, donna, said itwell, she used to always say to
me she goes, isn't it about timeyou go through another Barnabas
?
And her statement was basicallyyou know, you're kind of
letting some of these thingsslide about dating your wife and
teaching her.
Jeff Jones (45:29):
You know, Okay, there we go.
Dale Lewis (45:30):
And so I really encourage guys that have been
through Barnabas to now be partof that group of discipling
others.
It's that last phase oftransference, and so I encourage
them throughout this time tostart looking for men that you
can disciple.
And right now in this churchthat I'm attending here that you
(45:50):
can disciple.
And right now on this churchthat I'm attending here, I think
there's about I don't knowmaybe four or five guys that are
discipling other people rightnow, and so that's what I want
to see happen, and so thatbecomes what I call the 14th
week.
You know, they start gettinginvolved and doing that.
Some of the guys begin to see,like I said, one guy that I just
(46:14):
finished here about six monthsago, eight months ago, he is now
on staff of this church.
He just got put on staff, sosome of them go into ministry,
which is always wonderful to see.
Bill Holdridge (46:26):
Well, like the current pastor at Bitterroot
Calvary Chapel, Bill Daly.
He was discipled by you for 13weeks in Seattle, Washington.
Dale Lewis (46:37):
That's right, yeah, and then mentored further into
ministry.
But yeah, I think you see allof that.
The other thing I like to dowith these guys is and this is
again something pastors can havea lead way of doing but if you
don't have a men's study or amen's Bible study or a men's
group, that can facilitatesomething really cool as well,
(46:58):
because that can be a landingspot for some of those guys that
maybe not yet ready, but italso can be a hunting ground for
guys that you might want tograb for the next ground.
Bill Holdridge (47:08):
There you go.
There you go, because we'realways looking.
Dale Lewis (47:15):
Because I am doing right now four studies a week
here.
So much for retirement, but I'mteaching four studies a week.
I have a study on Friday nighthere in the Gospel of Luke.
I have a marriage class I'mdoing on Sunday mornings.
I have a men's study on thelife of David on Sunday night
and growing in grace on Sundaynight.
So I have a lot of things thatI'm always looking for those
(47:36):
guys, and if you have a men'sgroup or something you can plug
them into, it's just a really,and I facilitate that men's
group.
I don't teach it per se, Ifacilitate it.
So it has that Barnabas feel toit, but they're familiar with
it.
Yeah, that's great.
And then, hopefully, I'll workmyself out of jobs, I'll turn it
loose and say, hey, why don'tyou take tonight?
(47:57):
So then they can get their feetwet a little bit that way too,
if they have teaching giftingsor other aspects of ministry.
Bill Holdridge (48:05):
So you've probably told them along the way
that, hey, just watch closelywhat I'm doing, because if
you've got this gift ofleadership, you're going to do
it too someday.
Dale Lewis (48:15):
Yeah, I encourage them right away really,
hopefully.
Of course, what they're doingby teaching their wife is
discipling their wife.
So they're doing.
They already have somebodythey're already discipling.
They may not be aware of thatyet, but they're doing their
wife if they're married rightaway.
But you know to look for thenext guy.
Jeff Jones (48:33):
Yeah.
Dale Lewis (48:34):
And that's always the goal, because, you know, the
trouble is that it can bebottlenecked.
If it's dependent upon Bill orDale, it's limited, but if we
each had 10 guys, we discipled,and let's say, five of those 10
discipled other men, this thingwould spread like wildfire.
Bill Holdridge (48:53):
Oh, it's multiplication rather than
addition.
Dale Lewis (48:55):
That's right.
Bill Holdridge (48:55):
Yeah, the math of that is staggering.
Dale Lewis (48:58):
Yeah, and that's how you can effectively change the
dynamic of the church globally.
Bill Holdridge (49:06):
Absolutely.
Not just locally.
Totally agree, totally agree.
Well, we've had so much toshare, dale, and I think it's
time to wrap this up, but thanksso much for joining us and
sharing what you've learned overthe years, because this is
golden.
I'm going to be praying and I'msure you are too, for this to
(49:26):
reach the ears of those that theHoly Spirit wants it to reach,
and we'll see what happens.
But to access again thecurriculum, one must go to
scripturesupplycom, follow theteaching links, special subjects
, and then you'll find Barnabas.
Click on that and that's thecurriculum.
My question, though you've alsogot the entire curriculum in a
(49:49):
PDF format.
I have a copy of that.
I think my copy is probablyclose to what you have now, but
would it be possible for us toinclude a download link to the
PDF copy of the curriculum aswell?
Dale Lewis (50:04):
Yes, you can certainly do the PDF.
So they can do that and, by theway, the material is all.
Everything on that site is 100%free.
You don't need any permissionto grab it and steal anything
you want not stealing it becauseit's not mine, but they can
take whatever they want that wayand utilize for any way they
(50:25):
feel led to utilize it.
So the material is there,wonderful, and they can grab it.
Bill Holdridge (50:31):
So how can a pastor or a leader, a would-be
men's disciple, how can they getin touch with you, Dale?
How would you like that tohappen?
Dale Lewis (50:41):
They can email me.
There's an email address onScripture Supply.
They can also email and I thinkyou sent that out last time my
email address, so you can tagthat if you want.
They can contact that way.
Bill Holdridge (50:54):
Okay.
Dale Lewis (50:55):
And if they have specific questions.
Some of them have called me ortexted me, whatever they want to
do.
That way I can be.
You know, I'm repurposed so Ihave more time to do some of
those things.
Between four studies a week Ican do that, that's good.
Bill Holdridge (51:14):
Okay, that sounds great.
Well, to wrap this up, we'vebeen listening to and talking
with Pastor Dale Lewis.
He lives in Navarre, florida,retired from two long Calvary
Chapel pastorates, but notretired from ministry in any
stretch of the imagination.
As you've heard, we've beentalking about Barnabas, which is
(51:35):
a process of developing men andhelping them become more
conformed into the image ofChrist.
So, again, thanks to Dale Lewisfor joining us and reach out to
him.
All of this information will bein the show notes and you can
take it from there.
And we'd love to have feedbackfrom you, by the way, as to what
(51:56):
the Lord is doing.
It would be wonderful to hearsome of those stories, because
we want what happens to be Godthings, we want them to be God
moments, god experiences.
So feel free to share that withus as well, and the show notes
will be available, like I said,and the announcer will give you
(52:16):
information as to how to reachout to Poimen Ministries.
God bless you and thanks forjoining us on Strength for
Today's Pastor.
Jeff Jones (52:24):
Strength for Today's Pastor is sponsored by Pointman
Ministries.
You can find us atpoimenministries.
com.
That's spelled POIMENMinistries.
com.
If something in today's programprompts a question or comment,
or if you have a topic idea fora future episode, just shoot us
an email atstrongerpastors@gmail.
com.
That's strongerpastors@gmail.
(52:46):
com.
May the Lord bless you as youserve him, His pastors and His
church.
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