March 8, 2024 • 44 mins
Hello listeners! Happy March! We are so excited to share with you the release of an incredibly heartfelt episode of the Strength in Recovery podcast, which features two remarkable individuals, Katie S. and her nephew, Dillon S., as they share their individual stories of recovery, and what recovering together as a family can look like. This captivating discussion offers listeners a glimpse into the struggles, victories, and the unwavering bond that can be shared between family members who navigate the journey of recovery hand in hand.
Tune in to hear not only how this extraordinary family navigated the ups and downs of addiction together, but how they made it to the other side, stronger and more united than ever before.
*The views and opinions expressed by the guests of this podcast should not be considered medical or treatment advice. Need treatment? Call 1-833-RCAALUM today. Looking for support? Visit www.rcaalumni.com.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hello listeners, welcome to the Strength in Recovery podcast sponsored by Recovery Centers
(00:23):
of America.
I'm your host, Jay Rodenbush, the director of alumni engagement, and today we're sitting
down with two very special people.
Just the life of RCA in some ways just brings life wherever she goes.
She is our sales and marketing manager for Devon, Katie Sullivan-Clough, and her nephew,
(00:49):
Dylan Sullivan, who's the regional director of our mission center.
It's seven years today that you've been working for RCA.
Seven years today at RCA.
Wow, congratulations.
It's been a long but rewarding journey for sure.
Tell us just briefly, I think the front lines and being in the mission center is such a
(01:11):
special place.
Tell us a little bit about what the mission center is.
Yeah, sure.
I think when I started at RCA, I started as a treatment advisor, taking phone calls.
Obviously, we still have those people today.
I think at the time I came in with no experience.
I just wanted to try and help somebody and it looked like a good job to do that.
(01:32):
My aunt sitting next to me, Katie, helped me get that job.
Really what we do is we take calls from individuals, whether it's patients, family members, anybody
of seeking treatment, practically from all over the country, and try to get them into
one of our facilities.
And we take calls 24 hours a day.
24 hours a day, seven days a week, holidays, everything.
(01:54):
We never close up.
I think the disease of addiction doesn't stop, so we can't stop either.
And I think it's one of the things that's so special about RCA is when you call RCA,
you're getting someone from RCA.
That's not always the case at other facilities.
So, when you walk through the Mission Center today and you just hear the compassion that
(02:19):
you have for your work and all of your fellows that work with you, and just the compassion
and their voices, and people are calling in vulnerable conditions.
Yeah.
I think people are calling at one of the worst moments in their lives and they're reaching
out for help.
And it can be the first time somebody's ever told anyone else that they have a problem.
(02:40):
So, those phone calls can be very challenging, but again, they're very rewarding at the same
time.
You know, you're able to kind of help somebody and help them see kind of that light at the
end of the tunnel and get them somewhere and get them some help.
It's a very fulfilling job.
Yeah.
And you were a part of that for so many years, and now you're working at our Devon facility,
Katie.
Yep.
(03:01):
Tell us a little bit about what you do.
So, currently, I am at Devon.
I'm in person there at Devon five days a week, and I am helping the business development
team and doing sales and marketing.
A big part of my job is hosting events and partnering with other like-minded individuals.
(03:23):
Recently, we partnered with Red Cross, and we had a Red Cross blood drive.
We did a gratitude meeting, and we partnered with another organization.
I guess where my passion comes from is not only helping people get into recovery and
(03:45):
start their recovery journey, but also supporting the staff.
The staff have a very difficult and challenging job every day on site in the call center, and
how can we support our staff and show our gratitude and recognize them for all the hard
work that they do every day?
(04:06):
And you do it so well.
I think people love seeing you.
You came in today to our corporate office, and you had a bag of candy, didn't you?
And you just fastened out candy for the mission center, and just you bring life wherever you
go.
So, thank you so much for your work.
You're very welcome.
And you two kind of have a special recovery bond, right?
(04:27):
I'll bet we have some good stories.
We have some fun stories.
We have some challenging and difficult stories.
I think it's really cool.
Dylan has a picture of my father, myself, and him when he was about three, four-
(04:48):
Yeah, four or five, probably.
Years old, and we're sitting at a picnic table, and I think the picture is still on his desk,
and it's like, here's you were to fault, you know, three alcoholics sitting together
at the table, because my father was a recovering alcoholic and passed away with decades of
continuous sobriety.
(05:09):
It was 35 years.
And you know, I didn't want to be like my father, and I ended up being exactly like my
father and struggled with alcohol.
And Dylan had his own journey, but me and my dad were sort of like, not the outcast,
(05:30):
but we had a special bond and a unique bond.
We understood each other, and we had the gift of recovery and fellowship and authenticity
and truth and trust with that bond.
So when Dylan struggled, and I'm not going to speak for him, I think that's where I
(05:55):
got close with Dylan, and I don't know how he knew, like I got him, but I did, just like
my father knew.
He could help me.
My father helped me in ways that maybe he doesn't even realize just by understanding,
because he walked in my shoes.
(06:19):
So it's been very interesting.
I'm from a large family, but for some reason Dylan and I just have this, like I can't explain
it, like this instinct.
Like I know I can go to Dylan with anything.
One, I can trust him, and two, I can be myself, whether that's crazy happy, crazy sad, crazy
(06:41):
scared, he's been there for me through very painful times in my recovery where I just
wanted someone that was like me, that understood and would love me and support me and get me
through, and he did.
So it's been really cool.
(07:01):
Talk a little bit about your relationship with your aunt.
Yeah.
I think our family's pretty big, Irish Catholic family.
Katie's one of six, so her brother is my dad.
You guys are all very close in age as well, right?
So we have big holidays together and stuff like that.
(07:24):
I think our family is relatively close, most of us, just because of that kind of big Irish
family, but I think over the years when I finally admitted to my mom that I had a problem
with drugs.
That was a very challenging time of my life.
I always knew, right?
I always knew I had a problem.
I always knew I felt different, but the first time I told my mom, the first phone call
(07:48):
she made was to Katie, right?
Hey, let me call somebody that has some experience with this.
I remember the conversation with my mom was she was...
Are you a teenager at this time?
Young adult?
I was 19, I guess.
Yeah, yeah.
Probably 19 at the time.
And my mom was very supportive and she was there for me as my mom.
I remember when I first talked to Katie around that time, obviously we had a relationship
(08:12):
growing up, right?
She's my aunt, but when I first talked to her, I felt different.
I knew she wasn't judging me, right?
She understood how I was feeling, what I was going through.
She was supporting me along the process.
She wasn't making me have to make a decision.
She wanted to support me in what I wanted to do.
I think from that point on, kind of that first time we talked when I had a problem, I think
(08:35):
we grew very, very close right there.
I knew we needed cigarettes.
I knew we needed cigarettes and drinks.
But I think what's cool, kind of what Katie said was that, you know, I have a...
I love all my uncles and aunts and my family, right?
But there's definitely a very special relation there and it could be, you know, down with
a simple fact that I could call Katie tomorrow and say that I want to get high, right?
(08:57):
And she's going to know what to do with that, right?
She's going to know how I feel and how I'm getting about that and be there to support
me.
But I think if I call my mom and said I want to get high more...
It's a different relationship.
Completely different, right?
My mom, who is main cares about me deeply, right?
It was the best for me.
But she's going to look at that situation completely differently than Katie would, right?
So I think to have somebody...
(09:17):
I'm grateful to have somebody in my life like that.
That's not only family, but also a very close friend and mentor and just, you know, person
in recovery that I can talk to and that cares about me and can support me on a deeper level
if it ever goes through.
Katie, if a mom is listening to this today, doesn't have experience in recovery and maybe
(09:40):
doesn't have family in recovery, doesn't have that person they can point to, what would
your advice be to them?
Get connected with a support group in the area.
Go to your church.
Go connect to Alanon's a great support.
Any family.
(10:01):
Talk to someone.
Talk to someone.
See if they can talk to someone that'll get them to people like us.
This is a disease that specifically parents, they're ashamed of.
Well, you know, I mean, we've come a long way, but there's still the sense that this
is something that needs to be swept under the carpet, right?
(10:22):
Absolutely.
And the tragedy is, because when I tell people I work at recovery centers of America, like
just normal people, they always say to me, my cousin has a problem.
My son struggled.
Like it opens up a door like I'm kind of safe.
And I think there's a lot of people, parents, loved ones, spouses that suffer in silence,
(10:47):
and they don't know how to access the services.
But you got to trust at least one person.
I mean, I hear stories all the time like somebody, my, my loved one needed help.
So I called the back of my insurance card, like there's people out there.
We have intervention services, people that will talk to them, even if you're not ready
(11:07):
to get, because families are scared.
They're tiptoeing around the problem and they don't know how to address it.
And a lot of times with families I've worked with, there's this sense of if we just, you
know, can get through the next 30 days, all of this will kind of go away.
We just get this person into treatment.
(11:29):
They're going to get better and then we don't have to talk about this anymore.
Do you see that kind of happening?
Definitely.
I think kind of what Katie said, like when I've talked to my parents about, you know,
over the years when I was like in active addiction, right, they knew, right?
Like I was probably 105 pounds.
You know, I was pale.
(11:49):
I looked sick, right?
I never had money, right?
It's always down about failing out.
You know, I lost everything, right?
And like it's obvious, but I think when I've talked to them, they didn't want to admit
to other people, but more importantly themselves.
That like my son is a heroin addict, right?
They didn't want to admit that.
And that's hard, I think, for a family member to overcome.
(12:13):
So, you know, I agree with everything that Katie's saying.
I think it's important to kind of, you know, there's so many services out there, right?
For families and patients and people that are struggling, but for whatever reason, they're
hard to access, right?
And I think that's like for me, a big piece of what I try to incorporate at RCA and what
(12:33):
I do at the Mission Center is like accessibility, right?
You know, we try to be quick.
We try to be fast.
We try to get somebody picked up as soon as possible and, you know, be able to, if we
can't accept them for whatever reason, get them to a place that can, right?
Immediately, because those services for whatever reason, they're hard to access.
And we also know that people's willingness, we got to move quick sometimes, right?
(12:57):
The window can be smaller big, depending on the person, for sure.
Yeah.
And it's interesting because my experience was, you know, I said it earlier, I didn't
want to be like my father, but my father was sober, very active in a 12-step program.
And my father knew I was struggling and knew I was suffering and he knew a solution and
(13:19):
he helped me.
I was saying, or like Dylan, I think the first time he knew anything about like I was sober,
he didn't know, he was at school doing his thing.
But I think when we've had this conversation, the first time that he understood pop-ups
recovery, my recovery was my father's funeral service.
(13:46):
Because my father was to the outside of Quietman, he wasn't like social, he didn't have like
lots of friends, he's kind of like a loner a little bit to the, to our family, like he's
like just quiet.
And the day of my father's service, drones and drones of people came in, hundreds.
(14:12):
It was incredible.
And it's the recovery community.
It was the recovery.
And I knew a lot of them because I was in the program.
And my family and Dylan can talk about his experience, but that they were blown away,
like shaking my brother's hand saying, your father saved my life.
My father came and saw me and like, so it was like recovery sometimes could be like a little
(14:36):
bit of a secret club.
But I think that was very moving.
And that was probably Dylan's first time seeing like what recovery was about.
Yeah, that was an incredible day.
I remember we were, we were on the end of the line at the funeral home with people shaking
(14:58):
your hand when they go around.
I'll never forget it was like an older woman came up to me, shook my hand.
She said, I met your grandfather two days ago and he saved my life and I turned my brother.
I was like, what is she talking about?
Yeah, we were, we were talking about pop ups.
I just, I knew he had a secret life, so to speak.
(15:20):
I think pop up as, you know, definitely quiet, reserved.
He would always sit at a counter at our aunt's house on holidays and drink the Iacope and
randomly he would disappear.
And I found out later he was going to a meetings, but he would randomly disappear.
So it was, it was an incredible day.
But I remember in the car on the way home, my dad, which was his dad as well was saying,
(15:44):
like, I can't believe the AAP people.
I'm in the back of the car like, what are you guys talking about?
And my sisters were like, he was in recovery from like alcohol.
And I was like, Oh, like, I didn't know that.
You know, like, why do you think he was disappearing on Christmas and Thanksgiving?
He was going to meetings.
I'm like, Oh, wow.
Yeah.
It's new.
And like, meanwhile, like, you know, and I can admit it now, but like, I was high at
(16:06):
that time, you know, I was, I was inactive.
I was using, you know, and like,
Can you start having this realization that, oh man, I might have a family disease?
I think there was a piece of me that not necessarily family disease.
There was a piece of me that realized that there's, there's a solution to like what I'm
going through.
(16:27):
But I think at the time I was so deep at that point, that was a five second thought, right?
And it passed rather quickly.
But I remember, you know, later on, like when I first kind of talked to Katie, when I, when
I needed to help and talk to my mom, like, I knew she's somebody to go to, you know,
at that time, because I later found out Katie was in recovery as well.
Was there a moment that you just came to that realization that you were going to talk to
(16:53):
your mom?
Um, yeah, I think everyone gets there differently.
Right.
You know, every story is always going to be different.
I think for me, I had a, I'd gotten this in trouble.
It was really what happened.
And my only way out was, was telling my mom what's going on and basically having her pay
(17:13):
somebody off is kind of how it went for me.
Um, I would just,
The gift of desperation, as they say.
Basically, yeah, I just was left with no option.
So I chose that path.
And the first time of the treatment, I think I was there four days, maybe left in the middle
of February, I remember.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Was there for like, you know, four or five days left.
Um, you know, I got high probably within two hours after leaving treatment, you know,
(17:39):
came home and kind of gave my parents the, the spiel of, you know, I'm okay.
I'm good.
I'm good.
I can't relate to these people, you know, you're crazy for putting me in there, all
that sort of stuff.
Deep down.
I'm like, that's exactly where I needed to be, you know,
And so talk to a mom who's taking that phone call right now from somebody in treatment or
somebody who's just recently left treatment saying, I don't really need this.
(18:03):
Yeah.
I think, you know, the best, the best thing that I could tell a mom that, you know, a
lot, I've had parents ask me like, why is my son getting high?
I don't understand.
Right.
Why would someone destroy their lies?
Why would somebody put a substance in their body?
Why would somebody drink every single day and throw their whole life away?
And the answer to that is so hard because kind of back to a Katie and I were saying
(18:25):
that unique relationship, like she understands why, you know what I mean?
I don't, I don't need to tell her why, but to explain that to a parent is difficult.
But I, I was just trying to tell them that like, I can't necessarily give you an answer
as far as why, what I can tell you is like that person is going through a lot of pain.
Um, you know, they're in a very dark place.
They're in pain.
Um, there's a lot of reasons behind that pain, right?
(18:48):
And that's part of like, what treatment can help with this to kind of dig a little bit
deeper and figure out what's going on.
But it's a tough question to answer for somebody.
And I think it's, you know, the best thing that I found, you know, for families is talk
to other family members that experience the same things, you know, very similar to age
and we can connect and we can talk about, you know, what we're experiencing in our lives.
(19:08):
Um, maybe the pain we dealt with and provide some hope for people.
Um, you know, families can do that as well, right?
You know, families that have been through that.
I've been out on meetings.
I've spoken out on meetings.
They're very, very powerful.
Um, and they can offer a ton of support and resources for, you know, a family that has
somebody that's struggling with addiction.
What do you think was helpful about Katie's approach with you?
(19:33):
Um, I gave you the, the bed at Wayne's.
Yeah.
I think Katie's approach was, you know, obviously very loving and caring, but, um, she, and
I hate to say this, but like it was kind of, I don't want to say it was a joke because
obviously it wasn't a joke, but I just knew I didn't feel judgment.
Yeah.
That was like the biggest thing.
(19:53):
I just, I didn't feel judged by her.
And you have to be, you know, you still family member.
This is still somebody you love deeply, but you don't want to scare him off.
So to speak.
Right.
So what, how do you manage those emotions on your side?
So just like when I fall asleep someone or I'm trying to help another person, I'll share
(20:14):
my experience.
I'll say we can help you.
Let's get you and help you need.
You're all right.
And then I joked about the, the, the night he spent on my husband, we were dating at
the time on the couch because, you know, times have changed.
The mission center, we answer calls 24 seven.
(20:35):
Back in the day, the calls weren't being answered and there weren't beds available.
And I had a bed, we had a bed form at a treatment center and they said, but you can't have it
till tomorrow.
So I said, and it's life or death.
Right.
So I know where to go either.
And he had nowhere to go.
And I'm like, I called my husband and I said, you gotta, you gotta let Dylms sleep on the
(20:57):
couch.
I can't get him into treatment tomorrow.
He's in recovery.
He's like, oh yeah.
He gave him the number and we put him on the couch.
But you know, I could never say to my brother and my sister-in-law, his parents, like, he's
going to be okay.
Like he's got this.
This is, this is the time.
(21:19):
Like, you don't have to worry anymore because it's a, it's a daily reprieve.
Like I can't say, and I've said it to my children, like I will never do this.
I'll never do the skin.
I will never drink again.
And I drank again.
I can't promise my children that I'll never drink again.
I have a daily reprieve.
(21:40):
It's based on what I do on a daily basis to enlarge my spiritual life and work on my character
defects and give back to others.
I mean, it's a gift, but I can't guarantee anybody.
But for Dylan, I'm sorry that he went through all the pain that he went through.
(22:04):
And I'm sorry that he has this horrendous addiction, so purely addiction, addiction to heroin.
But I'm also even more grateful that he has it because it's a gift.
And the relationship that we have, it's because of the recovery.
(22:30):
It's strong because of the recovery.
It's real because of our recovery.
It's authentic.
It is so beautiful.
I love my family.
We're such a big family, but it's so beautiful to be at a family event and just to see Dylan
there across the room.
And I can't explain it.
It's just this connection.
(22:51):
And it's the connection you get in recovery with relationships.
And it's awesome in your ability to help others.
Yeah, we try.
Every day.
We're a best.
We try.
I mean, we've had, we've lost people.
And that's been hard.
(23:12):
And I think of, Dylan's lost a lot of people.
And I just think of times when he's been in pain through recovery.
And I've offered just come lay on my couch.
And I didn't really offer him anything.
(23:35):
I didn't have any resources for him.
I wasn't counseling him.
I just let him lay on my couch.
Yeah, because that's, I guess, what we knew at the time.
And how, how do you explain the difference between letting someone lay on your couch
and establishing a healthy boundary?
When is that helpful?
(23:57):
What it, talk, talk me through that a little bit.
Well, when I say laid, I was talking to him.
She's not going to let you just lay there and relax his seat.
She's going to get some.
I was gently, I was gently, was it gently encouraging him to connect with people that
(24:22):
cared about him to check in.
It was specifically with mission center people and to get re-engaged.
And I knew he would do it when he was ready.
And you know, he did.
(24:44):
But it's interesting because everybody's got opinions.
And I don't know if I did it the right way or not, but like family members were calling
me going, like, is he okay?
Is he okay?
And I looked out.
Yes.
It's laying on the couch.
Like he's okay.
And I talked to, when I introduced myself, I talked, I went through a very painful time
(25:07):
in my recovery.
I mean, I was broke and there was a situation in my personal life that was going on.
And I was, he came over and I was, I was like sobbing, like painful sob.
And I don't like feeling feelings in recovery.
It's not always easy.
He was just in the room and it gave me some sense of peace.
(25:30):
So I don't know if I'm answering your question.
No, I think it's true.
I just think, I think so many of us are fix it people.
Like how do I fix this?
How do I make it better?
And knowing we're limited.
Yeah.
And it's okay not to fix it to just, and that's, I feel that that's what I'm hearing.
(25:51):
Yeah, I had a, you know, one of my best friends and I live with him as well.
He worked at recovery centers in America and, you know, we lived together for like 10 months,
doing really well, you know, just became a supervisor in the mission center.
You know, unfortunately he relapsed one time he used overdose and, you know, found him
(26:13):
in his room dead.
And you know, that was a tough day, right?
And not just because of the, you know, image of finding my best friend like that, but like,
you know, I lost him really close to me, right?
And someone who was on the same path as you doing well.
Absolutely.
And doing really well.
You know, a huge advocate for people that are struggling, you know, helped probably thousands
(26:36):
of people in the treatment and, you know, unfortunately made one phone call and his
life ended, right?
So I think, you know, that day was tough, but, you know, the first phone call I made
was to my boss, actually, which is interesting.
I didn't call my mom or Katie, surprisingly, I called my boss.
And I think the reason why is because I had a meeting and I'm like, dude, I can't like,
(26:57):
I'm not going to make it, right?
Like this is what's going on.
And, you know, his response was some of your address and he stopped everything he was doing.
He came down, but I called Katie second.
She said the same thing.
She said, what's your address, right?
You know, they came right down.
That day to me was, it was probably the hardest day I've ever had in my recovery.
But I think the beautiful thing was, I remember when Katie and Mike showed up and Sam and
(27:22):
I were sitting outside of my apartment, because the police were inside and they both came
and just kind of sat there.
Like they didn't talk.
They knew I didn't want to say anything, right?
I didn't want to talk about it.
I didn't want to think about it, but they just knew like, hey, let me be there just in case,
right?
Like he does want to talk and I can listen, you know?
So to me, to have that relationship and, you know, people in my life that are like that
(27:45):
and can react that way and know me as a person, right?
And the way that I react to things is special.
And I think, you know, that was kind of the time I remember after that, you know, may not
be best to say at my apartment for a little bit.
So, you know, I slept on Katie's couch and she knows me really, really well because I
watched movies all day and hung out and had a good time.
So I think like she knows me.
(28:06):
I think for boundaries to know is the question that you asked.
You know, I think about when I was in active addiction.
My parents kicked me out at one point, right?
They held an intervention.
Didn't go as they thought it would.
And they said, you can go to treatment or you can leave.
And I was like, I'll leave, you know?
And they kicked me out.
And I remember, you know, my mom saying that was the hardest thing for her to ever do,
(28:28):
right?
I'm kicking my son out on the street with nothing, with a backpack and some clothes.
And I might never see him again, right?
Like that was kind of her thought.
He could be dead tomorrow.
Lunette was right and she had to make that.
That's a hard decision for her.
I don't have kids.
I'm sure it's a very hard decision for somebody to make.
And I think that's a tough boundary to hold, right?
(28:50):
With your loved one.
But I think at that point, and I know she talked to you about this and probably Jay
at some point.
But I think at that point, like she knew that she was doing more harm than good for me.
Like she was enabling me.
I could go to my mom and I could beg her for $20 and I could manipulate her and giving
you that $20, right?
(29:11):
Whether she wants to admit it or not, I could.
I can make her feel bad for me and I can get whatever I want out of her.
My dad was a little bit more tough, right?
But my mom, I could manipulate, right?
And she had to understand that like I'm only hurting him at this point, right?
And like he's got to, at some point, I don't want to say like suffer some sort of consequences,
(29:33):
but like I can't be the one here to support in your addiction anymore, right?
I have to hold that line at some point.
So I know like Rob and the intervention team and Tammy and all them here at RCA and intervention
is anywhere.
I mean, they specialize in those sort of things.
Like Jay, obviously, was phenomenal.
He helps kind of start RCA.
She has a long relationship with him as I did too for a couple of years when he was still
(29:57):
here.
And I think they're tough decisions to make, but sometimes that might be the best decision
for your loved one.
And just knowing that there are people out there that can walk you through what's a healthy
boundary, how do I establish that, you know, and give you the best shot.
(30:21):
And these are things you can call and talk to somebody today that can walk you through
that.
I mean, to me, that's amazing.
And I think it's hard when you're going through crises to know, what do I do?
How do I do?
Yeah, you ask for help.
(30:42):
Oh, I think that, I mean, just that is powerful, right?
You ask for help.
That's helpful.
Yeah.
It's just that it's that complicated and simple all at once, right?
Families don't know that.
Like, because they think they're strong enough.
They think they're like, I'm going to save my baby.
I mean, I'm going to help them.
I'm going to be the one.
But that outside person, whether it's intervention, whether it's our family service support team
(31:08):
through the call center, just, and I think as a family member, like, knowing that you're
not alone in it, and you're going to get the guidance and the help and the support and
having no expectation.
Yeah.
Because I've done a lot of, I've tried to help a lot of people and they weren't ready.
(31:29):
And, you know, it says in the big book about, like, if they want to keep drinking, like,
I can't make them stop.
So you can call me if you're ready to stop.
I'll try to help you.
But some people just, it's sad.
And it's sad to watch.
It's really hard to walk away from this.
(31:50):
It's not that I'm walking away.
I'll still check in.
But that day, I know they need, and they're not going to go.
You guys hear it all the time in the call center.
What do you think, working with families day in, day out, what do you feel is the biggest
mistake?
And I hate to say that.
I mean, we're all doing the best we can in any given moment dealing with crises.
(32:11):
But what do you wish, I guess, that you would see families do differently?
I think it's a little bit of what we just talked about, like, down trees, you know.
I think a lot of times, and those are tough conversations to have with a family member
over the phone.
But I think, like, a lot of times what I hear is that, you know, they're kind of enabling
their loved one, right?
(32:32):
Like, oh, you know, he'll call you guys when he makes a decision.
And I think we talk in terms like everybody knows what enabling is.
But can you break that down even just a little further?
What's enabling?
Yeah, I think it's, I don't know, I know for me, like I'm speaking my part, enabling
for me was like kind of my parents letting me stay at home, right?
(32:55):
Like, I might have been working, but I was probably working, you know, I was catting
on a golf course, right?
I'm living at home, I kind of have no path toward my life, you know, spending all my
money and using drugs, getting high in the house, I'm stealing things, right?
I'm stealing jewelry and money and, you know, cell phones, stuff like that, selling it at
Paul and Jobs.
And they're kind of just letting that go, right?
(33:16):
You know, kind of conversations here and there.
But, you know, hopefully he'll get help at some point.
Hopefully, you know, he'll get his life back on track.
Hopefully he'll stop using it.
What did enabling look like in your world or in, maybe not with you personally, but
just...
So, I'm watching someone making poor choices and I'm trying to fix it for them and prevent
(33:39):
the consequences of those choices.
Preventing consequences.
So, not wanting them to suffer.
Right.
And they need, they say hit bottom, but I, if I'm not letting them suffer the consequences,
they may stay sick.
Or if I am making excuses or I'm making it easier for them, they're not going to identify
(34:09):
like the drinkin' or the drug is causing the problem because there's no consequences.
You know, like my mother was an enabler.
My father knew I needed rehab.
Knew it every, like every time.
See it in my eyes, knew the signs, knew the symptoms.
(34:29):
My mother didn't like, didn't want her daughter to be an alcoholic, not her baby girl.
My mother woulda, she wanted to put me in my room and get me on ginger ale and bring
me Jalala and make it better.
But my father was stern, saying she needs help.
My mother loved me dearly.
(34:49):
She couldn't even wrap her head around, she didn't want me to have this disease.
You know, she didn't want me to be an alcoholic.
And she actually got in a fight with my father, they talked to me about it later, that she
was mad at him.
This is your fault that Katie has a drinkin' problem.
It wasn't.
Right.
And it's been the most precious gift I've ever received.
(35:16):
The peace I have today.
And the, like our disease, my disease is in my mind.
It's not about the drink.
My disease is in my mind, right?
I have two solutions every day.
One's still to take a drink.
The other one is to be a service to other people and develop my relationship with something
(35:37):
greater than Katie.
That's what helps me on a daily basis.
But I have no guarantee that I'll be sober tomorrow, next month, next year.
I mean, it's a gift.
It's a precious gift every day.
Had I not called Dylan this past weekend about my resentment, why is that?
(35:59):
But that does ripple into things.
You were about to tell the story before we started recording and I said, save it, save
it.
I didn't want to.
Sounded good.
So I have a disease that suffers in my mind, right?
And I get a thought and my ego attaches to it and starts telling a story.
And I'm off to the races.
I might, like, it's just I'm out, I'm out, like in a resentment or in fear or scared.
(36:26):
And I had resentment and I couldn't get out.
I couldn't get out.
And here's the thing.
It was a resentment I was right about.
So that's very, even worse, like justifiable anger.
And I was like, I got it.
I'm going to ruin my own whole day.
I have to talk this out with somebody, somebody that understands.
So I called him right away.
(36:47):
What are you doing?
He thought like, I mean, it wasn't a resentment.
I guess Tim, no, it was just a situation.
Yeah, it's just, it's not even a big deal today.
Like I'd process it now.
It's like, not even a big deal.
I don't even remember.
I kind of do, but like that type of thing for my alcoholic mind, that can take me into
(37:11):
a bad place.
I can stay there.
I can ruminate on it.
I can, you know, get remorseful.
I can feel sorry for these are all defects that aren't good for Katie's recovery and
block me from being a service to other people.
So I had to call immediately and just, I had to talk it through.
I just sometimes I've set to get it out there.
(37:34):
And I think, I think you asked a question about parents getting help and what do people
need to do?
I think we're doing, we're making a little dent in the ending stigma, but people have
to take, have the courage to say there's a problem because there's no family.
(37:59):
I truly believe there's no family out there that is functional and has no problems, but
we want to act as though we have everything together.
And you have to have enough courage to talk about that secret that nobody's talking about
(38:21):
in family.
Like he's at my dad's funeral.
He doesn't even know what AA is.
It doesn't know where he goes.
Yeah, well, when I found my parties, but that's secret.
You've got to have the courage to talk to somebody or to reach out and say, you know,
I'm scared for my son or I'm scared for my spouse.
(38:42):
And just knowing there is a whole community available.
Huge.
There is help.
There's people.
There's people that will talk to you.
Right.
Today.
Yeah.
That want nothing more than just to help.
So when I'm being a service and doing this, that when I'm being a service to other people,
(39:05):
that's to help me.
But I'm not looking for money or a fee.
I have to give back in order to keep it.
Like outside of even in here, but there's so many people suffering in silence and people
will help.
(39:28):
Thank you both so much for your time, for your story, for just sharing with us and for
helping break the silence about what addiction and recovery looks like in families.
I appreciate the work you both do.
I've seen you go above and beyond for our patients, our alums.
(39:51):
And Katie, especially our employees, you just do so much to keep us all inspired.
So I want to thank you both.
We usually end with favorite recovery quote.
Do you have one?
I can tell you mine.
Okay.
It's posted on my desk.
I keep it everywhere with me, but it's a simple one.
(40:13):
There's much more to it, but the first sentence is acceptance is the answer to all my problems.
And for me, like, and it's part of the big book.
I think I've had to learn to accept things for exactly how they are.
I can kind of give you an example.
I lived in the city about two months ago.
I walked outside to go to work on a Friday and all four of the wheels in my car were
(40:33):
gone.
So, right?
I'm going to have a nice car, but they were taken.
You know, I think a lot of people look at that situation and go, oh my God, right?
What am I going to do?
What's going on?
Blah, blah, blah.
You know, my girlfriend's freaking out, right?
And I'm like standing there like, you know, whatever, like, what am I going to do?
Like, they took the tires are gone, you know, like there's nothing I can do about it, right?
(40:56):
I just need to accept that happened, move on, call the insurance, call the police, get
it set up, get new tires on the car.
It wasn't a big deal.
I'm like, that's a very simple, you know, story that like where I just had to like really,
really practice acceptance and kind of, you know, learn how to accept things for the way
that they are.
It's taken me a long time to do that.
You know, I think if I look in the past, I would have reacted completely differently
(41:20):
to that situation, right?
I would have been angry.
I would have been frustrated.
I would have been, you know, trying to find the person that did it, right?
And, you know, in that morning, I was like, whatever, you know what I mean?
Like, call the police and get back to work.
Like, it wasn't, it wasn't a big deal.
It was frustrating to deal with it, but like I moved on rather quickly, you know?
And I think there's a lot of, there's a lot of things in my life today that I like, I
(41:44):
just have to realize that I need to accept them, you know?
And it takes me, it definitely takes practice and sometimes it might take a little bit longer
to accept, but to me, it's something that taught me tremendously in my recovery for
sure.
Do you have one?
I have tons of them.
How do you pick one?
Well, yeah, it is hard.
(42:07):
There's a line in the, in the big book of alcohols that I love and it says, as we
trudge the road to happy destiny.
And I love the word trudge because it doesn't say skip, doesn't say dance as we trudge the
road to happy destiny.
So you can get destiny.
(42:29):
Like sometimes you got to pull up a bootstraps thing and keep our feet moving.
Work.
And, but I do, I love that one.
Thank you so much for joining us today.
Really appreciate you both.
Thank you, Jay, for all you do.
Thank you listeners for joining us today for the Strength and Recovery podcast.
If you or someone you know is struggling and needs help, there are people standing by 24
(42:52):
hours a day ready to take your call.
Please call 1-833-RCA-ALUM.
Have a great day.
Thank you for listening to the Strength and Recovery podcast.
If you enjoyed this episode, please tap the subscribe button and leave us a review.
(43:17):
We love hearing from our listeners and hope to reach more of you out there as we continue
to share these incredible stories of recovery.
The RCA alumni team aims to provide a safe, supportive environment for those in the recovery
community regardless of their affiliation with RCA.
We host a full calendar of virtual and in-person meetings seven days a week, 365 days a year,
(43:44):
as well as free sober events every month.
To learn more about what we do, find us at rcaalumni.com.
Remember, if you or a loved one is struggling with addiction, pick up the phone and dial
1-833-RCA-ALUM.
Help is available 24-7.
(44:06):
Listen to another episode now or join us next time for the Strength and Recovery podcast.
Hello listeners, welcome to the Strength in Recovery podcast sponsored by Recovery Centers
(00:23):
of America.
I'm your host, Jay Rodenbush, the director of alumni engagement, and today we're sitting
down with two very special people.
Just the life of RCA in some ways just brings life wherever she goes.
She is our sales and marketing manager for Devon, Katie Sullivan-Clough, and her nephew,
(00:49):
Dylan Sullivan, who's the regional director of our mission center.
It's seven years today that you've been working for RCA.
Seven years today at RCA.
Wow, congratulations.
It's been a long but rewarding journey for sure.
Tell us just briefly, I think the front lines and being in the mission center is such a
(01:11):
special place.
Tell us a little bit about what the mission center is.
Yeah, sure.
I think when I started at RCA, I started as a treatment advisor, taking phone calls.
Obviously, we still have those people today.
I think at the time I came in with no experience.
I just wanted to try and help somebody and it looked like a good job to do that.
(01:32):
My aunt sitting next to me, Katie, helped me get that job.
Really what we do is we take calls from individuals, whether it's patients, family members, anybody
of seeking treatment, practically from all over the country, and try to get them into
one of our facilities.
And we take calls 24 hours a day.
24 hours a day, seven days a week, holidays, everything.
(01:54):
We never close up.
I think the disease of addiction doesn't stop, so we can't stop either.
And I think it's one of the things that's so special about RCA is when you call RCA,
you're getting someone from RCA.
That's not always the case at other facilities.
So, when you walk through the Mission Center today and you just hear the compassion that
(02:19):
you have for your work and all of your fellows that work with you, and just the compassion
and their voices, and people are calling in vulnerable conditions.
Yeah.
I think people are calling at one of the worst moments in their lives and they're reaching
out for help.
And it can be the first time somebody's ever told anyone else that they have a problem.
(02:40):
So, those phone calls can be very challenging, but again, they're very rewarding at the same
time.
You know, you're able to kind of help somebody and help them see kind of that light at the
end of the tunnel and get them somewhere and get them some help.
It's a very fulfilling job.
Yeah.
And you were a part of that for so many years, and now you're working at our Devon facility,
Katie.
Yep.
(03:01):
Tell us a little bit about what you do.
So, currently, I am at Devon.
I'm in person there at Devon five days a week, and I am helping the business development
team and doing sales and marketing.
A big part of my job is hosting events and partnering with other like-minded individuals.
(03:23):
Recently, we partnered with Red Cross, and we had a Red Cross blood drive.
We did a gratitude meeting, and we partnered with another organization.
I guess where my passion comes from is not only helping people get into recovery and
(03:45):
start their recovery journey, but also supporting the staff.
The staff have a very difficult and challenging job every day on site in the call center, and
how can we support our staff and show our gratitude and recognize them for all the hard
work that they do every day?
(04:06):
And you do it so well.
I think people love seeing you.
You came in today to our corporate office, and you had a bag of candy, didn't you?
And you just fastened out candy for the mission center, and just you bring life wherever you
go.
So, thank you so much for your work.
You're very welcome.
And you two kind of have a special recovery bond, right?
(04:27):
I'll bet we have some good stories.
We have some fun stories.
We have some challenging and difficult stories.
I think it's really cool.
Dylan has a picture of my father, myself, and him when he was about three, four-
(04:48):
Yeah, four or five, probably.
Years old, and we're sitting at a picnic table, and I think the picture is still on his desk,
and it's like, here's you were to fault, you know, three alcoholics sitting together
at the table, because my father was a recovering alcoholic and passed away with decades of
continuous sobriety.
(05:09):
It was 35 years.
And you know, I didn't want to be like my father, and I ended up being exactly like my
father and struggled with alcohol.
And Dylan had his own journey, but me and my dad were sort of like, not the outcast,
(05:30):
but we had a special bond and a unique bond.
We understood each other, and we had the gift of recovery and fellowship and authenticity
and truth and trust with that bond.
So when Dylan struggled, and I'm not going to speak for him, I think that's where I
(05:55):
got close with Dylan, and I don't know how he knew, like I got him, but I did, just like
my father knew.
He could help me.
My father helped me in ways that maybe he doesn't even realize just by understanding,
because he walked in my shoes.
(06:19):
So it's been very interesting.
I'm from a large family, but for some reason Dylan and I just have this, like I can't explain
it, like this instinct.
Like I know I can go to Dylan with anything.
One, I can trust him, and two, I can be myself, whether that's crazy happy, crazy sad, crazy
(06:41):
scared, he's been there for me through very painful times in my recovery where I just
wanted someone that was like me, that understood and would love me and support me and get me
through, and he did.
So it's been really cool.
(07:01):
Talk a little bit about your relationship with your aunt.
Yeah.
I think our family's pretty big, Irish Catholic family.
Katie's one of six, so her brother is my dad.
You guys are all very close in age as well, right?
So we have big holidays together and stuff like that.
(07:24):
I think our family is relatively close, most of us, just because of that kind of big Irish
family, but I think over the years when I finally admitted to my mom that I had a problem
with drugs.
That was a very challenging time of my life.
I always knew, right?
I always knew I had a problem.
I always knew I felt different, but the first time I told my mom, the first phone call
(07:48):
she made was to Katie, right?
Hey, let me call somebody that has some experience with this.
I remember the conversation with my mom was she was...
Are you a teenager at this time?
Young adult?
I was 19, I guess.
Yeah, yeah.
Probably 19 at the time.
And my mom was very supportive and she was there for me as my mom.
I remember when I first talked to Katie around that time, obviously we had a relationship
(08:12):
growing up, right?
She's my aunt, but when I first talked to her, I felt different.
I knew she wasn't judging me, right?
She understood how I was feeling, what I was going through.
She was supporting me along the process.
She wasn't making me have to make a decision.
She wanted to support me in what I wanted to do.
I think from that point on, kind of that first time we talked when I had a problem, I think
(08:35):
we grew very, very close right there.
I knew we needed cigarettes.
I knew we needed cigarettes and drinks.
But I think what's cool, kind of what Katie said was that, you know, I have a...
I love all my uncles and aunts and my family, right?
But there's definitely a very special relation there and it could be, you know, down with
a simple fact that I could call Katie tomorrow and say that I want to get high, right?
(08:57):
And she's going to know what to do with that, right?
She's going to know how I feel and how I'm getting about that and be there to support
me.
But I think if I call my mom and said I want to get high more...
It's a different relationship.
Completely different, right?
My mom, who is main cares about me deeply, right?
It was the best for me.
But she's going to look at that situation completely differently than Katie would, right?
So I think to have somebody...
(09:17):
I'm grateful to have somebody in my life like that.
That's not only family, but also a very close friend and mentor and just, you know, person
in recovery that I can talk to and that cares about me and can support me on a deeper level
if it ever goes through.
Katie, if a mom is listening to this today, doesn't have experience in recovery and maybe
(09:40):
doesn't have family in recovery, doesn't have that person they can point to, what would
your advice be to them?
Get connected with a support group in the area.
Go to your church.
Go connect to Alanon's a great support.
Any family.
(10:01):
Talk to someone.
Talk to someone.
See if they can talk to someone that'll get them to people like us.
This is a disease that specifically parents, they're ashamed of.
Well, you know, I mean, we've come a long way, but there's still the sense that this
is something that needs to be swept under the carpet, right?
(10:22):
Absolutely.
And the tragedy is, because when I tell people I work at recovery centers of America, like
just normal people, they always say to me, my cousin has a problem.
My son struggled.
Like it opens up a door like I'm kind of safe.
And I think there's a lot of people, parents, loved ones, spouses that suffer in silence,
(10:47):
and they don't know how to access the services.
But you got to trust at least one person.
I mean, I hear stories all the time like somebody, my, my loved one needed help.
So I called the back of my insurance card, like there's people out there.
We have intervention services, people that will talk to them, even if you're not ready
(11:07):
to get, because families are scared.
They're tiptoeing around the problem and they don't know how to address it.
And a lot of times with families I've worked with, there's this sense of if we just, you
know, can get through the next 30 days, all of this will kind of go away.
We just get this person into treatment.
(11:29):
They're going to get better and then we don't have to talk about this anymore.
Do you see that kind of happening?
Definitely.
I think kind of what Katie said, like when I've talked to my parents about, you know,
over the years when I was like in active addiction, right, they knew, right?
Like I was probably 105 pounds.
You know, I was pale.
(11:49):
I looked sick, right?
I never had money, right?
It's always down about failing out.
You know, I lost everything, right?
And like it's obvious, but I think when I've talked to them, they didn't want to admit
to other people, but more importantly themselves.
That like my son is a heroin addict, right?
They didn't want to admit that.
And that's hard, I think, for a family member to overcome.
(12:13):
So, you know, I agree with everything that Katie's saying.
I think it's important to kind of, you know, there's so many services out there, right?
For families and patients and people that are struggling, but for whatever reason, they're
hard to access, right?
And I think that's like for me, a big piece of what I try to incorporate at RCA and what
(12:33):
I do at the Mission Center is like accessibility, right?
You know, we try to be quick.
We try to be fast.
We try to get somebody picked up as soon as possible and, you know, be able to, if we
can't accept them for whatever reason, get them to a place that can, right?
Immediately, because those services for whatever reason, they're hard to access.
And we also know that people's willingness, we got to move quick sometimes, right?
(12:57):
The window can be smaller big, depending on the person, for sure.
Yeah.
And it's interesting because my experience was, you know, I said it earlier, I didn't
want to be like my father, but my father was sober, very active in a 12-step program.
And my father knew I was struggling and knew I was suffering and he knew a solution and
(13:19):
he helped me.
I was saying, or like Dylan, I think the first time he knew anything about like I was sober,
he didn't know, he was at school doing his thing.
But I think when we've had this conversation, the first time that he understood pop-ups
recovery, my recovery was my father's funeral service.
(13:46):
Because my father was to the outside of Quietman, he wasn't like social, he didn't have like
lots of friends, he's kind of like a loner a little bit to the, to our family, like he's
like just quiet.
And the day of my father's service, drones and drones of people came in, hundreds.
(14:12):
It was incredible.
And it's the recovery community.
It was the recovery.
And I knew a lot of them because I was in the program.
And my family and Dylan can talk about his experience, but that they were blown away,
like shaking my brother's hand saying, your father saved my life.
My father came and saw me and like, so it was like recovery sometimes could be like a little
(14:36):
bit of a secret club.
But I think that was very moving.
And that was probably Dylan's first time seeing like what recovery was about.
Yeah, that was an incredible day.
I remember we were, we were on the end of the line at the funeral home with people shaking
(14:58):
your hand when they go around.
I'll never forget it was like an older woman came up to me, shook my hand.
She said, I met your grandfather two days ago and he saved my life and I turned my brother.
I was like, what is she talking about?
Yeah, we were, we were talking about pop ups.
I just, I knew he had a secret life, so to speak.
(15:20):
I think pop up as, you know, definitely quiet, reserved.
He would always sit at a counter at our aunt's house on holidays and drink the Iacope and
randomly he would disappear.
And I found out later he was going to a meetings, but he would randomly disappear.
So it was, it was an incredible day.
But I remember in the car on the way home, my dad, which was his dad as well was saying,
(15:44):
like, I can't believe the AAP people.
I'm in the back of the car like, what are you guys talking about?
And my sisters were like, he was in recovery from like alcohol.
And I was like, Oh, like, I didn't know that.
You know, like, why do you think he was disappearing on Christmas and Thanksgiving?
He was going to meetings.
I'm like, Oh, wow.
Yeah.
It's new.
And like, meanwhile, like, you know, and I can admit it now, but like, I was high at
(16:06):
that time, you know, I was, I was inactive.
I was using, you know, and like,
Can you start having this realization that, oh man, I might have a family disease?
I think there was a piece of me that not necessarily family disease.
There was a piece of me that realized that there's, there's a solution to like what I'm
going through.
(16:27):
But I think at the time I was so deep at that point, that was a five second thought, right?
And it passed rather quickly.
But I remember, you know, later on, like when I first kind of talked to Katie, when I, when
I needed to help and talk to my mom, like, I knew she's somebody to go to, you know,
at that time, because I later found out Katie was in recovery as well.
Was there a moment that you just came to that realization that you were going to talk to
(16:53):
your mom?
Um, yeah, I think everyone gets there differently.
Right.
You know, every story is always going to be different.
I think for me, I had a, I'd gotten this in trouble.
It was really what happened.
And my only way out was, was telling my mom what's going on and basically having her pay
(17:13):
somebody off is kind of how it went for me.
Um, I would just,
The gift of desperation, as they say.
Basically, yeah, I just was left with no option.
So I chose that path.
And the first time of the treatment, I think I was there four days, maybe left in the middle
of February, I remember.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Was there for like, you know, four or five days left.
Um, you know, I got high probably within two hours after leaving treatment, you know,
(17:39):
came home and kind of gave my parents the, the spiel of, you know, I'm okay.
I'm good.
I'm good.
I can't relate to these people, you know, you're crazy for putting me in there, all
that sort of stuff.
Deep down.
I'm like, that's exactly where I needed to be, you know,
And so talk to a mom who's taking that phone call right now from somebody in treatment or
somebody who's just recently left treatment saying, I don't really need this.
(18:03):
Yeah.
I think, you know, the best, the best thing that I could tell a mom that, you know, a
lot, I've had parents ask me like, why is my son getting high?
I don't understand.
Right.
Why would someone destroy their lies?
Why would somebody put a substance in their body?
Why would somebody drink every single day and throw their whole life away?
And the answer to that is so hard because kind of back to a Katie and I were saying
(18:25):
that unique relationship, like she understands why, you know what I mean?
I don't, I don't need to tell her why, but to explain that to a parent is difficult.
But I, I was just trying to tell them that like, I can't necessarily give you an answer
as far as why, what I can tell you is like that person is going through a lot of pain.
Um, you know, they're in a very dark place.
They're in pain.
Um, there's a lot of reasons behind that pain, right?
(18:48):
And that's part of like, what treatment can help with this to kind of dig a little bit
deeper and figure out what's going on.
But it's a tough question to answer for somebody.
And I think it's, you know, the best thing that I found, you know, for families is talk
to other family members that experience the same things, you know, very similar to age
and we can connect and we can talk about, you know, what we're experiencing in our lives.
(19:08):
Um, maybe the pain we dealt with and provide some hope for people.
Um, you know, families can do that as well, right?
You know, families that have been through that.
I've been out on meetings.
I've spoken out on meetings.
They're very, very powerful.
Um, and they can offer a ton of support and resources for, you know, a family that has
somebody that's struggling with addiction.
What do you think was helpful about Katie's approach with you?
(19:33):
Um, I gave you the, the bed at Wayne's.
Yeah.
I think Katie's approach was, you know, obviously very loving and caring, but, um, she, and
I hate to say this, but like it was kind of, I don't want to say it was a joke because
obviously it wasn't a joke, but I just knew I didn't feel judgment.
Yeah.
That was like the biggest thing.
(19:53):
I just, I didn't feel judged by her.
And you have to be, you know, you still family member.
This is still somebody you love deeply, but you don't want to scare him off.
So to speak.
Right.
So what, how do you manage those emotions on your side?
So just like when I fall asleep someone or I'm trying to help another person, I'll share
(20:14):
my experience.
I'll say we can help you.
Let's get you and help you need.
You're all right.
And then I joked about the, the, the night he spent on my husband, we were dating at
the time on the couch because, you know, times have changed.
The mission center, we answer calls 24 seven.
(20:35):
Back in the day, the calls weren't being answered and there weren't beds available.
And I had a bed, we had a bed form at a treatment center and they said, but you can't have it
till tomorrow.
So I said, and it's life or death.
Right.
So I know where to go either.
And he had nowhere to go.
And I'm like, I called my husband and I said, you gotta, you gotta let Dylms sleep on the
(20:57):
couch.
I can't get him into treatment tomorrow.
He's in recovery.
He's like, oh yeah.
He gave him the number and we put him on the couch.
But you know, I could never say to my brother and my sister-in-law, his parents, like, he's
going to be okay.
Like he's got this.
This is, this is the time.
(21:19):
Like, you don't have to worry anymore because it's a, it's a daily reprieve.
Like I can't say, and I've said it to my children, like I will never do this.
I'll never do the skin.
I will never drink again.
And I drank again.
I can't promise my children that I'll never drink again.
I have a daily reprieve.
(21:40):
It's based on what I do on a daily basis to enlarge my spiritual life and work on my character
defects and give back to others.
I mean, it's a gift, but I can't guarantee anybody.
But for Dylan, I'm sorry that he went through all the pain that he went through.
(22:04):
And I'm sorry that he has this horrendous addiction, so purely addiction, addiction to heroin.
But I'm also even more grateful that he has it because it's a gift.
And the relationship that we have, it's because of the recovery.
(22:30):
It's strong because of the recovery.
It's real because of our recovery.
It's authentic.
It is so beautiful.
I love my family.
We're such a big family, but it's so beautiful to be at a family event and just to see Dylan
there across the room.
And I can't explain it.
It's just this connection.
(22:51):
And it's the connection you get in recovery with relationships.
And it's awesome in your ability to help others.
Yeah, we try.
Every day.
We're a best.
We try.
I mean, we've had, we've lost people.
And that's been hard.
(23:12):
And I think of, Dylan's lost a lot of people.
And I just think of times when he's been in pain through recovery.
And I've offered just come lay on my couch.
And I didn't really offer him anything.
(23:35):
I didn't have any resources for him.
I wasn't counseling him.
I just let him lay on my couch.
Yeah, because that's, I guess, what we knew at the time.
And how, how do you explain the difference between letting someone lay on your couch
and establishing a healthy boundary?
When is that helpful?
(23:57):
What it, talk, talk me through that a little bit.
Well, when I say laid, I was talking to him.
She's not going to let you just lay there and relax his seat.
She's going to get some.
I was gently, I was gently, was it gently encouraging him to connect with people that
(24:22):
cared about him to check in.
It was specifically with mission center people and to get re-engaged.
And I knew he would do it when he was ready.
And you know, he did.
(24:44):
But it's interesting because everybody's got opinions.
And I don't know if I did it the right way or not, but like family members were calling
me going, like, is he okay?
Is he okay?
And I looked out.
Yes.
It's laying on the couch.
Like he's okay.
And I talked to, when I introduced myself, I talked, I went through a very painful time
(25:07):
in my recovery.
I mean, I was broke and there was a situation in my personal life that was going on.
And I was, he came over and I was, I was like sobbing, like painful sob.
And I don't like feeling feelings in recovery.
It's not always easy.
He was just in the room and it gave me some sense of peace.
(25:30):
So I don't know if I'm answering your question.
No, I think it's true.
I just think, I think so many of us are fix it people.
Like how do I fix this?
How do I make it better?
And knowing we're limited.
Yeah.
And it's okay not to fix it to just, and that's, I feel that that's what I'm hearing.
(25:51):
Yeah, I had a, you know, one of my best friends and I live with him as well.
He worked at recovery centers in America and, you know, we lived together for like 10 months,
doing really well, you know, just became a supervisor in the mission center.
You know, unfortunately he relapsed one time he used overdose and, you know, found him
(26:13):
in his room dead.
And you know, that was a tough day, right?
And not just because of the, you know, image of finding my best friend like that, but like,
you know, I lost him really close to me, right?
And someone who was on the same path as you doing well.
Absolutely.
And doing really well.
You know, a huge advocate for people that are struggling, you know, helped probably thousands
(26:36):
of people in the treatment and, you know, unfortunately made one phone call and his
life ended, right?
So I think, you know, that day was tough, but, you know, the first phone call I made
was to my boss, actually, which is interesting.
I didn't call my mom or Katie, surprisingly, I called my boss.
And I think the reason why is because I had a meeting and I'm like, dude, I can't like,
(26:57):
I'm not going to make it, right?
Like this is what's going on.
And, you know, his response was some of your address and he stopped everything he was doing.
He came down, but I called Katie second.
She said the same thing.
She said, what's your address, right?
You know, they came right down.
That day to me was, it was probably the hardest day I've ever had in my recovery.
But I think the beautiful thing was, I remember when Katie and Mike showed up and Sam and
(27:22):
I were sitting outside of my apartment, because the police were inside and they both came
and just kind of sat there.
Like they didn't talk.
They knew I didn't want to say anything, right?
I didn't want to talk about it.
I didn't want to think about it, but they just knew like, hey, let me be there just in case,
right?
Like he does want to talk and I can listen, you know?
So to me, to have that relationship and, you know, people in my life that are like that
(27:45):
and can react that way and know me as a person, right?
And the way that I react to things is special.
And I think, you know, that was kind of the time I remember after that, you know, may not
be best to say at my apartment for a little bit.
So, you know, I slept on Katie's couch and she knows me really, really well because I
watched movies all day and hung out and had a good time.
So I think like she knows me.
(28:06):
I think for boundaries to know is the question that you asked.
You know, I think about when I was in active addiction.
My parents kicked me out at one point, right?
They held an intervention.
Didn't go as they thought it would.
And they said, you can go to treatment or you can leave.
And I was like, I'll leave, you know?
And they kicked me out.
And I remember, you know, my mom saying that was the hardest thing for her to ever do,
(28:28):
right?
I'm kicking my son out on the street with nothing, with a backpack and some clothes.
And I might never see him again, right?
Like that was kind of her thought.
He could be dead tomorrow.
Lunette was right and she had to make that.
That's a hard decision for her.
I don't have kids.
I'm sure it's a very hard decision for somebody to make.
And I think that's a tough boundary to hold, right?
(28:50):
With your loved one.
But I think at that point, and I know she talked to you about this and probably Jay
at some point.
But I think at that point, like she knew that she was doing more harm than good for me.
Like she was enabling me.
I could go to my mom and I could beg her for $20 and I could manipulate her and giving
you that $20, right?
(29:11):
Whether she wants to admit it or not, I could.
I can make her feel bad for me and I can get whatever I want out of her.
My dad was a little bit more tough, right?
But my mom, I could manipulate, right?
And she had to understand that like I'm only hurting him at this point, right?
And like he's got to, at some point, I don't want to say like suffer some sort of consequences,
(29:33):
but like I can't be the one here to support in your addiction anymore, right?
I have to hold that line at some point.
So I know like Rob and the intervention team and Tammy and all them here at RCA and intervention
is anywhere.
I mean, they specialize in those sort of things.
Like Jay, obviously, was phenomenal.
He helps kind of start RCA.
She has a long relationship with him as I did too for a couple of years when he was still
(29:57):
here.
And I think they're tough decisions to make, but sometimes that might be the best decision
for your loved one.
And just knowing that there are people out there that can walk you through what's a healthy
boundary, how do I establish that, you know, and give you the best shot.
(30:21):
And these are things you can call and talk to somebody today that can walk you through
that.
I mean, to me, that's amazing.
And I think it's hard when you're going through crises to know, what do I do?
How do I do?
Yeah, you ask for help.
(30:42):
Oh, I think that, I mean, just that is powerful, right?
You ask for help.
That's helpful.
Yeah.
It's just that it's that complicated and simple all at once, right?
Families don't know that.
Like, because they think they're strong enough.
They think they're like, I'm going to save my baby.
I mean, I'm going to help them.
I'm going to be the one.
But that outside person, whether it's intervention, whether it's our family service support team
(31:08):
through the call center, just, and I think as a family member, like, knowing that you're
not alone in it, and you're going to get the guidance and the help and the support and
having no expectation.
Yeah.
Because I've done a lot of, I've tried to help a lot of people and they weren't ready.
(31:29):
And, you know, it says in the big book about, like, if they want to keep drinking, like,
I can't make them stop.
So you can call me if you're ready to stop.
I'll try to help you.
But some people just, it's sad.
And it's sad to watch.
It's really hard to walk away from this.
(31:50):
It's not that I'm walking away.
I'll still check in.
But that day, I know they need, and they're not going to go.
You guys hear it all the time in the call center.
What do you think, working with families day in, day out, what do you feel is the biggest
mistake?
And I hate to say that.
I mean, we're all doing the best we can in any given moment dealing with crises.
(32:11):
But what do you wish, I guess, that you would see families do differently?
I think it's a little bit of what we just talked about, like, down trees, you know.
I think a lot of times, and those are tough conversations to have with a family member
over the phone.
But I think, like, a lot of times what I hear is that, you know, they're kind of enabling
their loved one, right?
(32:32):
Like, oh, you know, he'll call you guys when he makes a decision.
And I think we talk in terms like everybody knows what enabling is.
But can you break that down even just a little further?
What's enabling?
Yeah, I think it's, I don't know, I know for me, like I'm speaking my part, enabling
for me was like kind of my parents letting me stay at home, right?
(32:55):
Like, I might have been working, but I was probably working, you know, I was catting
on a golf course, right?
I'm living at home, I kind of have no path toward my life, you know, spending all my
money and using drugs, getting high in the house, I'm stealing things, right?
I'm stealing jewelry and money and, you know, cell phones, stuff like that, selling it at
Paul and Jobs.
And they're kind of just letting that go, right?
(33:16):
You know, kind of conversations here and there.
But, you know, hopefully he'll get help at some point.
Hopefully, you know, he'll get his life back on track.
Hopefully he'll stop using it.
What did enabling look like in your world or in, maybe not with you personally, but
just...
So, I'm watching someone making poor choices and I'm trying to fix it for them and prevent
(33:39):
the consequences of those choices.
Preventing consequences.
So, not wanting them to suffer.
Right.
And they need, they say hit bottom, but I, if I'm not letting them suffer the consequences,
they may stay sick.
Or if I am making excuses or I'm making it easier for them, they're not going to identify
(34:09):
like the drinkin' or the drug is causing the problem because there's no consequences.
You know, like my mother was an enabler.
My father knew I needed rehab.
Knew it every, like every time.
See it in my eyes, knew the signs, knew the symptoms.
(34:29):
My mother didn't like, didn't want her daughter to be an alcoholic, not her baby girl.
My mother woulda, she wanted to put me in my room and get me on ginger ale and bring
me Jalala and make it better.
But my father was stern, saying she needs help.
My mother loved me dearly.
(34:49):
She couldn't even wrap her head around, she didn't want me to have this disease.
You know, she didn't want me to be an alcoholic.
And she actually got in a fight with my father, they talked to me about it later, that she
was mad at him.
This is your fault that Katie has a drinkin' problem.
It wasn't.
Right.
And it's been the most precious gift I've ever received.
(35:16):
The peace I have today.
And the, like our disease, my disease is in my mind.
It's not about the drink.
My disease is in my mind, right?
I have two solutions every day.
One's still to take a drink.
The other one is to be a service to other people and develop my relationship with something
(35:37):
greater than Katie.
That's what helps me on a daily basis.
But I have no guarantee that I'll be sober tomorrow, next month, next year.
I mean, it's a gift.
It's a precious gift every day.
Had I not called Dylan this past weekend about my resentment, why is that?
(35:59):
But that does ripple into things.
You were about to tell the story before we started recording and I said, save it, save
it.
I didn't want to.
Sounded good.
So I have a disease that suffers in my mind, right?
And I get a thought and my ego attaches to it and starts telling a story.
And I'm off to the races.
I might, like, it's just I'm out, I'm out, like in a resentment or in fear or scared.
(36:26):
And I had resentment and I couldn't get out.
I couldn't get out.
And here's the thing.
It was a resentment I was right about.
So that's very, even worse, like justifiable anger.
And I was like, I got it.
I'm going to ruin my own whole day.
I have to talk this out with somebody, somebody that understands.
So I called him right away.
(36:47):
What are you doing?
He thought like, I mean, it wasn't a resentment.
I guess Tim, no, it was just a situation.
Yeah, it's just, it's not even a big deal today.
Like I'd process it now.
It's like, not even a big deal.
I don't even remember.
I kind of do, but like that type of thing for my alcoholic mind, that can take me into
(37:11):
a bad place.
I can stay there.
I can ruminate on it.
I can, you know, get remorseful.
I can feel sorry for these are all defects that aren't good for Katie's recovery and
block me from being a service to other people.
So I had to call immediately and just, I had to talk it through.
I just sometimes I've set to get it out there.
(37:34):
And I think, I think you asked a question about parents getting help and what do people
need to do?
I think we're doing, we're making a little dent in the ending stigma, but people have
to take, have the courage to say there's a problem because there's no family.
(37:59):
I truly believe there's no family out there that is functional and has no problems, but
we want to act as though we have everything together.
And you have to have enough courage to talk about that secret that nobody's talking about
(38:21):
in family.
Like he's at my dad's funeral.
He doesn't even know what AA is.
It doesn't know where he goes.
Yeah, well, when I found my parties, but that's secret.
You've got to have the courage to talk to somebody or to reach out and say, you know,
I'm scared for my son or I'm scared for my spouse.
(38:42):
And just knowing there is a whole community available.
Huge.
There is help.
There's people.
There's people that will talk to you.
Right.
Today.
Yeah.
That want nothing more than just to help.
So when I'm being a service and doing this, that when I'm being a service to other people,
(39:05):
that's to help me.
But I'm not looking for money or a fee.
I have to give back in order to keep it.
Like outside of even in here, but there's so many people suffering in silence and people
will help.
(39:28):
Thank you both so much for your time, for your story, for just sharing with us and for
helping break the silence about what addiction and recovery looks like in families.
I appreciate the work you both do.
I've seen you go above and beyond for our patients, our alums.
(39:51):
And Katie, especially our employees, you just do so much to keep us all inspired.
So I want to thank you both.
We usually end with favorite recovery quote.
Do you have one?
I can tell you mine.
Okay.
It's posted on my desk.
I keep it everywhere with me, but it's a simple one.
(40:13):
There's much more to it, but the first sentence is acceptance is the answer to all my problems.
And for me, like, and it's part of the big book.
I think I've had to learn to accept things for exactly how they are.
I can kind of give you an example.
I lived in the city about two months ago.
I walked outside to go to work on a Friday and all four of the wheels in my car were
(40:33):
gone.
So, right?
I'm going to have a nice car, but they were taken.
You know, I think a lot of people look at that situation and go, oh my God, right?
What am I going to do?
What's going on?
Blah, blah, blah.
You know, my girlfriend's freaking out, right?
And I'm like standing there like, you know, whatever, like, what am I going to do?
Like, they took the tires are gone, you know, like there's nothing I can do about it, right?
(40:56):
I just need to accept that happened, move on, call the insurance, call the police, get
it set up, get new tires on the car.
It wasn't a big deal.
I'm like, that's a very simple, you know, story that like where I just had to like really,
really practice acceptance and kind of, you know, learn how to accept things for the way
that they are.
It's taken me a long time to do that.
You know, I think if I look in the past, I would have reacted completely differently
(41:20):
to that situation, right?
I would have been angry.
I would have been frustrated.
I would have been, you know, trying to find the person that did it, right?
And, you know, in that morning, I was like, whatever, you know what I mean?
Like, call the police and get back to work.
Like, it wasn't, it wasn't a big deal.
It was frustrating to deal with it, but like I moved on rather quickly, you know?
And I think there's a lot of, there's a lot of things in my life today that I like, I
(41:44):
just have to realize that I need to accept them, you know?
And it takes me, it definitely takes practice and sometimes it might take a little bit longer
to accept, but to me, it's something that taught me tremendously in my recovery for
sure.
Do you have one?
I have tons of them.
How do you pick one?
Well, yeah, it is hard.
(42:07):
There's a line in the, in the big book of alcohols that I love and it says, as we
trudge the road to happy destiny.
And I love the word trudge because it doesn't say skip, doesn't say dance as we trudge the
road to happy destiny.
So you can get destiny.
(42:29):
Like sometimes you got to pull up a bootstraps thing and keep our feet moving.
Work.
And, but I do, I love that one.
Thank you so much for joining us today.
Really appreciate you both.
Thank you, Jay, for all you do.
Thank you listeners for joining us today for the Strength and Recovery podcast.
If you or someone you know is struggling and needs help, there are people standing by 24
(42:52):
hours a day ready to take your call.
Please call 1-833-RCA-ALUM.
Have a great day.
Thank you for listening to the Strength and Recovery podcast.
If you enjoyed this episode, please tap the subscribe button and leave us a review.
(43:17):
We love hearing from our listeners and hope to reach more of you out there as we continue
to share these incredible stories of recovery.
The RCA alumni team aims to provide a safe, supportive environment for those in the recovery
community regardless of their affiliation with RCA.
We host a full calendar of virtual and in-person meetings seven days a week, 365 days a year,
(43:44):
as well as free sober events every month.
To learn more about what we do, find us at rcaalumni.com.
Remember, if you or a loved one is struggling with addiction, pick up the phone and dial
1-833-RCA-ALUM.
Help is available 24-7.
(44:06):
Listen to another episode now or join us next time for the Strength and Recovery podcast.
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