March 19, 2025 • 52 mins
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The Caribbean's financial revolution has been quietly unfolding for generations. We delve into the powerful world of rotating savings and credit associations (ROSCAs) known throughout the region as Padna, Susu, Boxhand, and countless other names. Dr. Caroline Hossein joins us as we reveal how these grassroots financial systems challenge Western capitalism by prioritizing collective wellbeing over individual profit.
We trace these practices through the Middle Passage to contemporary Caribbean communities and their diasporas worldwide. Dr. Hossein shares fascinating insights from her research documenting these "banker ladies" who organize and manage these systems with remarkable financial acumen. These community banking practices aren't relics of the past but living demonstrations of alternative economic possibilities – showing how financial systems can be democratized and made to serve community needs. For anyone interested in economic justice, community building, or Caribbean cultural resilience, this episode offers profound insights into how ancient wisdom continues to create pathways to freedom and prosperity.
A multi-award-winning scholar, Dr. Caroline Shenaz Hossein is Canada Research Chair in Africana Development and Feminist Political Economy and Associate Professor of Global Development & Political Economy at the University of Toronto. Hossein is founder of the Diverse Solidarity Economies (DISE) Collective, which involves a wide range of feminist scholars concerned with building a human economy. Hossein’s research navigates solidarity economies–a movement started in the Global South–which prioritizes social profitability over financial gain. She is the author of over 50 scholarly publications, including The Banker Ladies: Vanguards of Solidarity Economics and Community-Based Banks (2024) and produced a documentary of the same name, both about Black women’s participation in mutual aid.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Strictly Facts, a guide to Caribbean
history and culture, hosted byme, alexandria Miller.
Strictly Facts teaches thehistory, politics and activism
of the Caribbean and connectsthese themes to contemporary
music and popular culture.
Hello, hello, good morning,good day, good night.
(00:23):
Thank you so much for spendingsome time with us at Strictly
Facts, a guide to Caribbeanhistory and culture, what I hope
is your favorite Caribbeanhistory and culture podcast.
One aspect I've loved about thepodcast and you know sharing
Strictly Facts and my interestin Caribbean history with so
many of you is the fact thatCaribbean people have always
(00:44):
protested and creativelycircumvented barriers to their
freedom.
In a lot of ways, right, and youknow, in a lot of ways that's a
result of the racial, gendered,social standings.
We'll get into a lot of thosethings today, but our discussion
really is focusing on one ofthose really creative ways of
circumventing these barriers,not just in terms of our social
(01:05):
standings, but also to betterour economic standings, through
community practices, throughunity, through finances
especially.
And so, if you have heard ofPadna, of Susu, of Boxhand there
are many names that you knowand we'll get a little bit more
into that as well in ourconversation today, but that is
precisely what we are discussing, and so, before we get too deep
(01:28):
, I have the pleasure of beingjoined by Dr Caroline
Shannaz-Hossein, canada ResearchChair in Africana Development
and Feminist Political Economyand Associate Professor of
Global Development and PoliticalEconomy at the University of
Toronto, scarborough, as well asthe founder of Diverse
Solidarity Economies Collective.
(01:49):
Dr Hossein, thank you so muchfor joining us here at Strictly
Facts today.
Why don't you kick us off alittle bit with telling us a bit
about yourself, your connectionto the Caribbean and what
inspired your interest inpolitical economy and
development?
Speaker 2 (02:03):
So I want to say thank you, alexandria, for
having me on this podcast, wherewe focus and pay attention to
innovations that are happeningin the Caribbean region, but
also in the diaspora.
It's a real honor and pleasurefor me to be here with you.
So my name is Caroline Hossain.
(02:23):
Most days, I'm so happy to be apart of a feminist economics
collective called the DiceCollective, and that's what
sustains me in terms of theresearch I'm doing, because
we're always thinking aboutpluralizing our economic systems
to ensure that we have moreequality and justness within the
(02:45):
ways in which we work inbusiness and society.
My connection to the Caribbeanis that I am part of that
diaspora.
I was born in New York City toCaribbean parents.
My mom is of Grenadian and StVincent background but grew up
in Trinidad so the ultimateCaribbean woman and my father is
(03:09):
Indo-Guyanese and he is alsosomeone who is very proud of his
culture and legacy, like youjust mentioned earlier, and so I
come from both Africandescendants and Indo descendants
from the Caribbean.
Some of your listeners mightknow what a Dougla is, so I see
(03:31):
myself as a Dougla feminist andI'm very proud of that heritage.
I was born in New York City,raised by Caribbean immigrant
parents who relocated late 60sto the US and then migrated on
to Toronto, canada, where wehave a very vibrant and lively
Caribbean community.
(03:51):
You mentioned you're fromJamaica, so lots and lots of
Jamaicans here for decades inToronto Canada, and so I've had
this back and forth relationshipwith family spread across the
Caribbean but also within theUnited States and Canada, so my
Caribbean histories and tracesare quite rich and diverse in
(04:15):
terms of geography.
So I was fortunate enough whileI was a doctoral student to do
my Fulbright in Jamaica atUEMONA, but I also traveled the
region, particularly in Haiti,jamaica, guyana, trinidad and
Grenada, and to really thinkthrough more formalized
financial programs targeting thepoor, the entrepreneurial poor,
(04:40):
and that's really when Istarted getting interested in
alternative economic systems andhow they touch people within
the Caribbean but also in thediaspora.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
Just a brief shout out to my Scarborough family
that I know is tuning in.
So, as you said, we are a verybig diaspora and so Caribbean
people are all over the place.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
I live in Scarborough .
Speaker 1 (05:04):
Yes.
So I was, like you know, got togive a good shout out.
I know they're tuning in.
All that being said, and youknow, as you really are bringing
us to this point of solidarityeconomies, as I briefly raised
already, there are a lot ofnames that you know these sort
of practices can be known by,and they differ a little bit
(05:24):
across the region.
So you know, padna, as Imentioned, in Jamaica, susu or
Susu in Trinidad, and theBahamas Lodge in St Lucia,
boxhand in Guyana, seoul inHaiti, and the list goes on and
on.
But from an academicperspective, in a way, they're
sometimes referred to asrotating savings and credit
(05:45):
associations and have, you know,really helped Caribbean people,
even members of my own family,make tremendous strides, whether
that be starting a business,you know, putting a down payment
on a house, sending their kidsto college, all of these things
right, and they are, in a way, asort of money pool I'm putting
it very tersely in a sense, butsort of a money pool which
(06:08):
allows, you know, members ofyour family or your community to
get together as an alternativeto maybe taking out a bank loan
or something like that.
So, you know, as our residentexpert sharing with us today.
Could you share with us alittle bit more about this
practice and how it even reallyworks and why people use them
really?
Speaker 2 (06:26):
Yeah, I think, alexandria, you did a great job
at sort of really pinning downthe definition of what I call
are very ancient cooperativeeconomic systems that are global
in their orientation.
These kind of socialinnovations started in the
global South, all over the world.
You know, in India they havechit, in China they have hua.
(06:50):
Across the Arab world it'sgameyas.
Mexico, latin America call themtandas.
So of course, within theCaribbean region, that continues
this rich African tradition ofSusu and Itiga out of Kenya and
Huggabud in Somalia.
(07:10):
So there's so many rich,diverse economic cooperative
institutions that are rooted inwhat we know as mutual aid
groups, and these are mutual aidfinancial groups that are not
unfamiliar to developed countrycontexts.
But everywhere in the worldpeople have a history of using
(07:33):
these kinds of financial systemsthrough some sort of group
mechanism.
And so, as you mentionedcorrectly, roskus is the
official academic word, but mostpeople in the Caribbean region
will refer to them in theirvernacular, as you said.
You know Jamaicans, forJamaicans it's partner right or
(07:54):
partner, or however which waythey say it.
You know you have meeting turnbox, hand, susu.
You know lodge, tontine, soul,I mean there's so many
colloquial, localized love namesthat actually the women who
organize them and callthemselves the banker ladies
(08:16):
have been really big proponentsof call it what you like,
because that's where it givesmeaning, and so we've been
really doing an inventory, if Ican say, of these kinds of
systems that have this sharedglobal phenomenon of people sort
of do-it-yourself finance andpooling economic goods together.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
But really that financial transaction is only
one piece of what Roskas bringto people who participate as
members in these collectiveinstitutions different things,
(09:04):
whether that's food, you know wehave foods that would be called
one thing in one island, it'sthe same food in another island,
it's just by another name.
And I think it even expands outbeyond that because, as you
mentioned, these practices areall over the world.
But even really connecting someof the names to the continent
and you know various countriesin Africa have very similar
names, or you know the samenames to some of the islands in
(09:27):
the region.
And so, just a way to you know,bridge our communities even
beyond the immediate Caribbean,but extend it outward For our
listeners who may not befamiliar.
And I think, in a way, to anextent, as time has gone on,
it's maybe become less currentand maybe future generations are
(09:48):
less aware of Padna or of theseRaskas, as you mentioned.
But the way that it works forour listeners, if you're unaware
, so there is a banker, a bankerlady, if it's a woman or you
know, but generally there's abanker who is, you know, in the
same way we would think of banksas kind of like the holder of
the money, right, and so you getyour group together, everybody
(10:08):
puts in their $100 or whateverthe amount is, and you know
there's a specific way in whichyou set your terms right.
So it's, if it's every week or,you know, once a month,
whatever that looks like, andthen each person within the bank
or this banking system rotatesand gets their share of that
(10:28):
collective pool.
So if there are seven peoplewithin the structure you know,
everybody puts in their $100,the pool is $700.
And so every week if that'syour term, that you said it,
every week a different personwithin this pool gets the $700,
for instance, said it, everyweek, a different person within
this pool gets the $700, forinstance.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
And that's what's so beautiful about these systems,
and I think you've really sortof underlined an essential
practice, which is democracybuilding.
These institutions are rootedin democracy and consensus
building.
Members voluntarily cometogether.
It could be because theseinstitutions are born out of
crisis, which could be businessor financial exclusion.
(11:12):
It could be because ofloneliness.
I mean.
The reasons in terms of whypeople come together to create a
Rosca, to create a SUSU, tocreate a POTNA, will vary.
To create a susu, to create apartner, will vary, but what's
key here is that members cometogether.
They decide what thatleadership will look like.
(11:36):
So, as you mentioned, sometimesthere is a chief banker.
So the chief banker, lady right, who will spend a lot of time
organizing and facilitating andmobilizing the membership to
make contributions on cycles anddurations that everyone agrees
to.
That's what's beautiful aboutRosca they have a starting point
and an ending point and everymember has a vote or a voice in
(12:02):
terms of what that institutionwill look like.
So ROSCA's do vary in terms ofcycle and duration, but they're
primarily for people who are notfamiliar with them.
They're primarily a savingsmobilization, where people have
a fixed sum of money that theywill give in intervals to one
(12:23):
another like a gift, and in turn, everyone will access a lump
sum of money that wascontributed to a larger pool, so
that, instead of you savingtirelessly for a year to get
that major purchase, you canactually do that much faster,
particularly if you're earlierin the queue to access that lump
(12:45):
sum of money.
Yeah, and so it's about thisidea of camaraderie people
supporting one another, peopleassisting each other, not just
through financial transactionsalone, because the social
dimension is huge, like peoplemake sure that they're meeting
up to give courage, to continuewith your life and dream
(13:09):
projects, but also to thinkthrough how do you repair harms
that have happened to you insociety.
So it's a real conversation.
It's a real foodie paradise,really.
People get together and do agreat cook-up and they have
great conversation, do a lot ofhealing, but they're also
(13:31):
dreaming while they're comingtogether.
So, yeah, rosca's systems themechanisms in how people
organize these institutions isreally done collectively by
members, and so I like to likenthese institutions to what
people already know cooperativesand credit unions, and many of
(13:55):
those institutions which aremembership-based started off
informally, because they wereoften born because of some major
crisis or tragedy that theyfelt that commercial,
individualized institutions werenot addressing, and so Roskas
(14:17):
belong to that kind of businesslegacy of membership-based
institutions who think of thegroup as being really central to
how we thrive.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
Thank you.
I really appreciate, you know,you cementing us in the sort of
like historical legacies of itand why they've started right,
as we all have, you know,certainly talked about, whether
that's within this podcast orbeyond.
As we know, through historiesof colonialism, of imperialism,
right, these structures havebeen put in place to disinherit
to, you know, I mean bepropertied and and rid people of
(14:55):
their rights in a lot of ways.
And I think oftentimes we talkabout freedom in a sense of
political freedom, right, you'rea citizen not being referred to
as property, but also a largepart of that freedom is our
economic, you know, endeavorsand wanting to feed our families
and grow, et cetera, and inmany ways, you know, these
systems have thwarted people'sabilities to do that.
(15:18):
And you know Patna Raskas, asyou know, it's also known as our
ways to circumvent that.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
People brought over on boats, this idea of food and
music and art and dress fashion,all of these kind of real,
major contributions to make theCaribbean and the world better.
Actually, this infusion ofAfrican culture and life.
(15:50):
Why wouldn't people also bringtheir expertise and know-how
about how we do business insociety?
And that's exactly what peoplebrought.
They taught us how to humanizeeconomic systems.
There's actually a beautifulbook.
It was written in 1996.
I always refer people to it.
(16:11):
It was written by two women,sandra Berman and Shirley Ardner
, and they wrote this bookcalled Money Go Rounds, and
Money Go Rounds is.
I take it as a case study.
It doesn't read as a harshacademic text.
Rather it's a beautifulunfolding of stories from around
the world, in the West but alsoin the South, of why women
(16:36):
particularly gravitate to theseRoska, mutual Aid, financial
Economic Systems, and thestories that unfold are quite
powerful in terms of how peoplemitigate intrusions on their
freedoms, but also how they openup new opportunities in terms
(16:58):
of friendships and the kinds oflife and business projects that
they want to do in the future.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
That sort of you know is a great point to connect us
to even the work in your book aswell For our listeners tuning
in who want to check it out.
The name of Dr Hussain's book isthe Banker Ladies, vanguards of
Solidarity Economics andCommunity-Based Banks.
There's also an accompanyingdocumentary so I'll be sure to
link both of those forinterested listeners.
(17:27):
But in a lot of ways your workhighlights what I think, at
least in my mind, wasn't alwayssuper underscored in my
understanding of Padnas.
It's always been very communalright, but I don't think I
necessarily was aware of howmuch women in a lot of ways
dominated, as you're outliningfor us.
(17:47):
And so in a lot of ways yourwork highlights both how women
have been really central in thecontinuation of Rosca's, as well
as the community knowledge andAfrocentric approaches to
economics that have transpiredas a result and so sort of how
do you see these groupsdiffering from Western
capitalist principles andteachings that you know really
(18:10):
primarily and I may be leadingyou in a way, but they
prioritize the individual rightas opposed to the community in a
lot of ways.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
Yeah, and I think that that's the whole game with
this push for modernity right,we try to give these sort of
corporate, neoliberalprescriptions of what success
and business in society lookslike.
And it's always linear, it'salways a linear project, it's
always individualized, it'salways privatized and there's
(18:42):
always this understanding thatthere's one rational actor, that
there's no other alternative tothe corporate business model.
And what these women whoorganize Roskas in the Caribbean
, in the diaspora, are doing arepushing against inequities,
(19:02):
inequality, business exclusion,by saying that those
prescriptions of individuality,of demeaning culture, of
thinking that the communal isinferior, and what they're doing
is pushing against thatrhetoric, those stereotypes, to
(19:24):
negate African collectivity, toshow that there is value, that
there is a logic to cooperation,that there is a logic to
collectivity.
Nobel Peace Prize winnerEleanor Ostrom wrote a book
called Governing the Commons.
So we know within the academicarenas that women have always
(19:49):
been at the forefront in termsof thinking through how to
mobilize communities in astrategic way to maintain
humanity.
And that's what exactly thebanker ladies are doing.
You know, there is a rationalefor grouping together when times
(20:11):
are complex and so collectivity, this idea of self-initiative
when you're being excluded, isvery much the thought process of
the work and life story ofMarcus Garvey, right, like this
whole idea of thinking throughbusiness on your own terms,
(20:34):
right.
And I like the work of RobinKelly.
You know Freedom Dreams, I mean.
This just shows this idea ofemancipation and liberation
comes from within, right.
And the idea that these womenare pushing against corporate
ways of doing business bychoosing collectivity is really
(20:56):
key because what they're sayingis that trust and reciprocity
trust and reciprocity, not rawprofiteering is what matters in
this world.
And that's a huge response topeople who really are convinced
that there is no otheralternative to the ways and that
growth, the growth thesis, isthe only way that we can move
(21:20):
and modernize society.
And they're like putting thebrakes on that because they're
saying there's value to mutualaid, there's value to
collectivity and that's howwe're going to empower not just
women but all of society.
And so they're leading us toreally think through how does
(21:41):
development look, how does morejust economic systems look, if
we were to do that together,collectively?
Speaker 1 (21:51):
One of the most interesting parts to me in your
book is just the way you havereally mapped what these Roskas
look like across differentplaces.
You have really mapped whatthese Roskas look like across
different places in a very ofcourse you know this is a
Caribbean podcast and we talkabout diaspora all the time,
(22:12):
right, but there are obviously,as you know, distinctions
between.
You know what it looks like inparts of Africa, in the
Caribbean, in you know, theglobal north, as people have
migrated to US, canada, uk, etc.
Global north as people havemigrated to US, canada, uk, etc.
You included a picture in yourbook, but there is this very
vivid moment for me upon readingit, where there's a picture I
can't remember which Africancountry right now, but there's a
(22:33):
picture of like what is more orless their Padna like place,
which to me was so interestingbecause it's always been like a
oh you know, cousin, auntie,whatever has to go drop off the
money at the banker's house orwhatever, as opposed to an
actual location, and so couldyou share a little bit about you
know how you've seen some ofthese distinctions between or
(22:57):
across different places, andanother thing that I think comes
up throughout your book is theways that they're looked at
differently.
It's very much so celebrated inthe Caribbean, but you've seen
very different world,particularly those Caribbean
women who keep holding it upevery day.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
There's a term that I love coming out of Haiti, the
potomitan, because I think thatthat terminology is so powerful
in that it speaks to sort ofwomen holding up society Right,
and there is so much of thatgoing on within the Caribbean
and its diaspora and when youtravel to understand where these
(23:55):
systems come from in Africa.
I traveled to Ethiopia andGhana a lot in writing this book
, and Ghana a lot in writingthis book, and it was such a
non-issue the value of thesecooperative money systems.
In Ethiopia they call them ekub, and in Ghana it's known as
susu, and I think what you'rereferring to in the book is a
(24:18):
photo of the National Ghana SusuCooperative Institution, and
they had regional offices inCape Town and in Accra.
We have so much to learn fromthe South in terms of their
pragmatism in recognizinginformal institutions that the
(24:41):
populations benefit from, and soin Ghana they have these
powerful susu systems that themajority of the population are
engaging in.
Most of it's informal andthere's no red flags with that
For them.
It's seen as something positivefor society that it enhances
(25:03):
who we are in civil society.
It builds social bonds, butthey also wanted to make room
for those people who wanted moreinsurance or guarantees when
risk could happen.
And so Ghana has taken on avery pragmatic approach to
thinking about SUSU, both in theformal but also in the informal
(25:26):
, and creating that space intheir financial ecosystem so
that both kinds of SUSU canoperate and function in their
business world.
And so Ghana is one example.
In South Africa they have thesestock bail systems and they've
taken on more of a capacitybuilding approach to stock bail
(25:48):
system, and so they have theNational Stock Bail Association
of South Africa, nasasa, andthey do mostly training to
upgrade and to spur on savingsand collectivity among people in
their country.
If we travel to South India, inKerala, people have a powerful
(26:13):
system, generally in India butmostly in the South, of
legalizing the chit system,localizing the CHIT system.
That's what they call theirRASCAs, because they see the
power of collective savingsamong people who feel abused and
(26:34):
profiled when they go intobanking systems.
And so they've thought aboutreally consciously thought about
how do we now incorporate aboutreally consciously thought
about how do we now incorporatelocalized systems that come out
of the grassroots for people whomay feel alienated by corporate
or commercial banks.
And so I think we you know wetend to export knowledge and
(26:58):
technical assistance to theSouth.
But what this work has beendoing has been really importing
expertise from the South toplaces like Canada and really
learning that, you know, racialcapitalism is very much embedded
in the Americas, in Europe,where Blacks are minorities and
(27:22):
are feeling under attack,particularly in this era, and so
this idea of group economicsthat Du Bois wrote about many,
many, many years ago still hasso much relevance in the world
we live in today.
Jessica Gordon-Nembhard is anAmerican feminist and economist
(27:48):
who is writing aboutcooperatives for decades, and
she wrote a book calledCollective Courage where she
outlines traces the historicaltraditions of cooperative
institutions across the UnitedStates and recognizes that many
of these institutions had to behidden because of the dangers
(28:12):
and life threats if people wentpublic about their informal or
formal cooperative institutions.
So there's a real sort ofdivergence in my work between
the Roskas that appear in theCaribbean and then the kind of
traumas that unfold when theyappear in big cities like
(28:37):
Toronto, miami, new York City orLondon, england, the kinds of
harms that are happening to thesame cooperators who come out of
Africa and the Caribbean.
Speaker 1 (28:49):
You did mention risks involved and I don't know if,
in doing the work of trying tounderstand what ROSCA's are and
how they work and you know,obviously they've had a
tremendous impact.
But with all things, they're notperfect right, and so it could
be risky, if no sense, if youknow a person in your group
(29:10):
doesn't put in their hand or youknow the banker goes missing.
Nothing is perfect, but thosecan be certain situations that
arise from being in a ROSCA.
But I think, moreoverwhelmingly than not, we do
have to take into account whatrisks look like in terms of you
know that might be a risk if yougo the ROSCA route, but then
what is the alternative if it's,you know the bank isn't
(29:33):
necessarily even going to lendyou money for whatever reason or
what may have you.
So certain things to just takeinto account for those wanting
to understand Roscoe's.
I did bring up, you know, thissort of changing dynamic in
terms of the awareness andcelebration of Roscoe's,
especially as we, you know, havemoved through time and space.
How have you really seen Roskaschange and really the awareness
(29:57):
and celebration of them?
And you know that could be in alot of ways, due to, of course,
migrations and movement, butalso how have they changed due
to you know things liketechnology.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
Lots of things to unpack here and exciting, and
there's so much scope for newlines of inquiry with this kind
of research.
So I hope that what at leastI'm doing with many others
who've been thinking aboutinformal institutions is really
sort of now creating an openingfor people in the academy to
(30:31):
start really taking serious this, these kinds of institutions
that are women-led, blackwomen-led in particular, but
also that they have chosenpurposefully to work and grow
informal types of institutionsbecause they see value for it in
(30:52):
our quote-unquote modernsociety.
I just wanted to touch a littlebit about the kinds of
challenges that happen withinRASCAs.
As you mentioned earlier, wehave to be careful not to
romanticize RASCAs, because witheverything in our world there's
always a degree of risk, forsure.
(31:15):
And how do you manage that?
And so over the years of doingmy research, I found that people
would come out in droves,unlike when I was studying more
professionalized microfinance.
I had to try to convince peopleto show up to these meetings,
but with the partner or the susuor the box, and people would
(31:36):
fill a room, because this is thefirst time for many that people
were coming to them to ask fortheir expertise on a financial
system.
That was about knowing thingsthat could bring positive change
in society, and so I alwaysfelt very humbled by that
(31:57):
turnout for these focus groupsor meetings, collective meetings
we would have in various places.
And the one thing that I notedpartway through my research is
that I needed to speak to Roscausers, these SUSU you know
participants and members aboutthe dangers or the risks that
(32:20):
unfold when people participatein these groups, just so that we
have clarity on what people aregetting into.
And what I found in thesegroups is that people would let
you know about.
You know there could be theft,there could be someone
absconding.
Sometimes confusion orfavoritism, lack of privacy are
(32:41):
issues that happen when you havean informal, community-driven
bank like a Roscoe Podno or Susugoing on.
That are some of the issuesthat people have to contend with
, and even with the mostegregious stories that I heard
in that room, I would always askthe question how many of you
still participate in one ofthese Roscas?
(33:04):
And overwhelmingly the majorityof people would raise back that
hand after telling me for aboutan hour and a half of the
tragedy and harms theyexperienced or the risks they
endured when they participatedin a ROSCA, and often people
would bring it down togovernance, leadership as being
(33:24):
a problem within the ROSCA tomanage or steward the resources.
So it wasn't as though theywere giving up on the actual
concept of what an informalcollective money system looks
like.
Rather, they weren't convincedby, perhaps, the leadership or
some of the members and how theywere vetted to really manage
those resources.
(33:46):
I say this because there is acommitment and a loyalty to
these Rosca systems,particularly for people who have
very limited options in termsof how they bank, or for people
who find that it's more thanjust a money transaction.
It's about building socialbonds and camaraderie.
And so later I started tounderstand why people would come
(34:11):
to a focus group, speak aboutthe grievances within Orozco but
at the same time admit quitehonestly that they still
participated in those groups.
Because the love for thosefinancial systems is cultural.
It has been a legacy, anheirloom that has been passed
(34:33):
down through generations.
And because there's one mishapdoesn't mean that the system is
defective.
It just means that we have todo better in terms of how we
structure accountability.
And I thought how powerful isthat when people come together
through their own citizenengagement and figure out what
(34:56):
rules make sense?
So I know I diverted away fromyour question in terms of like
sort of innovations that arehappening in the Rosca system,
and they're a lot.
Technology has really taken over, particularly with the younger
generation I say people in their20s and 30s, across Europe and
(35:19):
North America.
It's a way of them staying intouch and expanding membership
to reach all the way back to theCaribbean.
It's beautiful to see thatspace isn't an interruption now
in terms of how Raskas havehistorically been done, many of
the women when I started morethan a decade ago doing this
(35:40):
work, were meeting at people'shouses, churches or mosques, I
mean that's or schools.
That's how people did it Faceto face, in person.
Do a potluck or meet atsomeone's house, right, have
jerk, have your roti, whatever.
It was like a celebration,really a party, and they would
all be like we're doing our FETfor Patna this week or whatever,
(36:03):
and it's great, right.
But now these things haveevolved.
The pandemic happened.
Younger people are seeing thevalue of what they call
peer-to-peer lending and theylike technology and that's why
now banker ladies are thinkingstrategically in Toronto, canada
(36:23):
, about how do you mobilize andadvocate for a rightful
recognition of these informalinstitutions and how do you now
start to think about a littlebit more of not necessarily
formal legal recognition, but anappreciation for the
(36:46):
contributions that mutual aidgroups give to society, so that
when people are using thesesystems, they don't have to do
them in obscurity, they don'thave to be fearful that these
resources will be confiscated,and so that people are now
thinking through and those areadditional risks.
To get back to our story on riskis that in North America, the
(37:10):
divergence is that people arefeeling surveilled when they
participate on their own accordto gift each other these ROSCA
payments.
They feel as though there arethreats to participating in
groups like this.
It's seen as subversive orillegal.
And there's nothing illegalabout these systems because it's
(37:31):
about self-help and cooperation, and so technology has played a
major role.
When people can't meet inperson, pandemics racism, racial
capitalism that people arefiguring out how to use
applications on their phones toshare monies.
Speaker 1 (37:54):
I've certainly thought through that and even
you know, on one sense, theability of that to even extend
out your, your Padna or yourRoscoe, right before it would be
.
You know somebody that youcould more easily access by car,
by walking, or you know thosesorts of modes of transportation
, but now you could be in aPadna from.
You were in college in your 20sor something, and then you
(38:17):
migrate out to the US, forinstance, and still want to
participate and in a lot of ways, due to technology, can still
be able to do that.
But also, I think that pointthat you're making in terms of
surveillance and how these othersort of more formalized or, of
course, global and capitaliststructures impact our abilities
(38:39):
to feel safe within thesecommunal practices as well.
Speaker 2 (38:44):
And you know, these systems are evolving all the
time.
Like when you think aboutthings like financial
technologies, or they call themfintech, or you think about
microfinance or microcredit andcrowdfunding.
What are the roots and theorigins of these institutions?
The genealogy will trace youback to these Rosca systems,
(39:08):
which were really communal,collectively, done in a group
circle type setting that peoplethen would help and bestow
resources social or financial onthose that needed that kind of
support.
Right, and so I think that youknow we think of all this
evolution of Roskas.
(39:30):
They have really sort of spreadthe light in terms of what is
possible with the ways in whichwe work with money to repair
harms and deal with inequity inbusiness.
Right, and so crowdfunding isreally an updated version, right
(39:51):
, of this money pooling partnersystem that we all know and love
.
Right, but we often don'tcredit it, we don't cite these
women for this major piece ofwork that they have been doing
for centuries.
Speaker 1 (40:08):
On that point, I will , in a bit of a way, bring us to
one of my favorite segments ofthe podcast, which is our
Strictly Facts Sound segment.
In a lot of ways, I immediatelywent to be quite frank.
When we agreed to do thisepisode, I immediately was like,
oh, I have to talk about thisone song that talks about Padma.
But before we get there, whatare some of your favorite ways
(40:31):
Roskas show up in?
Speaker 2 (40:32):
you know whether that's particularly to the
Caribbean or the diaspora, butfor our popular culture, which
ways they're represented to me,but there's been a number of
(40:54):
calypso hits in Trinidad thatspeak about susu and the value
of people coming together tosupport one another in hard
times.
But for sure, more recentlyI've been really happy with
looking at how a museum hastaken seriously the work and the
writings of the Windrushgeneration coming out of London
(41:19):
and England, particularlyJamaican immigrants who went
there in the 30s, 40s and 50s,and sort of the atrocities and
the vile racism that they had toencounter when they went there
to work, and that in so many ofthe stories.
When you read these smallstories about the Windrush
(41:44):
generation and there's a lot ofthem online, if you just Google
Windrush and you read about thestories, the sort of personal
accounts of what people had togo through without fail, you'll
always hear about the partnersystem, because that played a
vital role in sort of settlingimmigrants into their new
(42:04):
society and giving them a leg up.
People weren't allowed to go tobanks or there was no space for
them, so they created their ownbanking system and what's
beautiful is that decades laterin the United Kingdom, in London
, seat of empire, the Bank ofEngland Museum, in partnership
(42:27):
with a very feisty Caribbean duo, a mother and daughter, who run
this museum and heritage museum, came together and created an
exhibit on the pot in hand, andthat is, to me, the ultimate
expression of art, reallybringing home the value and the
(42:52):
financial expertise thatCaribbean people have brought
from home to the rest of theworld.
Because when corporations andcommercial banks have been
complicit in extending racialcapitalism and bias against
(43:15):
people who emigrate to thesecountries, the Bank of England
recognized the value and theingenuity of Caribbean people to
devise their own cooperativebanks called PARTNA, and to see
and witness that on full displayat the Bank of England's museum
(43:39):
, who has been so problematicwith slavery to be able to, for
us to go to that exhibit wherethousands of people pass through
that museum, was reallysomething to anchor and validate
the work that these women havebeen doing for centuries, and so
(44:01):
for me that is the ultimate.
So if people have time, theywant to check out the Patna
exhibit at the Bank of EnglandMuseum with MuseumAnd they most
definitely should, because it'sbeautiful, it's a beautiful
thing to see.
It kind of really doesunderline sort of all the hard
(44:22):
work that they have been doingfor years without any credit or
citation, and I'm so glad thatwe get to sing about these
experiences.
We write poetry about the Patnaand the Susu system, but to
actually see it in a museum thathas wronged the Caribbean
diaspora for so long and forthem to validate and recognize
(44:45):
that as something we brought asa contribution to financial
economies is important,definitely, definitely.
Speaker 1 (44:53):
I will be sure to link that for our listeners if
they definitely want moreinformation, want to check it
out.
My recommendations are a littleless formal, but I do think
museums, in a way, are veryproud statements, as you
outlined for us right In a lotof ways I hope we take more
advantage of.
And it's like a portal.
Speaker 2 (45:15):
Right, it's a portal for people who don't even know
about these systems and to belike, oh, that's what they're
doing after church, you knowwhat I mean.
And then for them to say, oh,it's not negative, look at how
it's being.
These stories are beingexplained, it has some purpose,
right?
(45:35):
Yeah, go ahead, I want to hearyour contributions I have.
Speaker 1 (45:41):
I have a book which is called Padna Money Stories by
Deanne Heron.
I think there's been a part oneand a part two, I believe and
in a lot of ways, I think it'svery, you know, funny.
It's comical, but also, at thecore of it obviously is Padna
and the ways that it has helpedsupport her family through
(46:02):
migrations beyond Jamaica to,you know, to the UK, to the US,
et cetera.
The other one I'm always goingto, if I can do a song of, just
as a lover of music.
So, in 2018, dance hall artistShano, you know, released a song
called Pana Dra and you know,of course, it's a song, it's a
(46:23):
dance hall song, so it's upbeatsong.
It's a dancehall song, so it'supbeat, it's things to that
nature.
But I think it's reallyspeaking to what we've talked
about today in terms of its, youknow, ability to help really,
um, support our dreams and ourcommunities.
Like, there's a point in thechorus where he says wait till I
get my padna, may I go buy mamaeverything she want?
(46:43):
Or there's another line when hegets his Padna draw, he would
put it down on a house thathe'll be proud of, right?
These are really the thingsthat undergird Padna right, it's
the fact that it is to supportus in funding these things that
have been systemically notreally available to us in a lot
of ways.
Speaker 2 (47:03):
So like the everyday uses right of the system.
Yeah, that's great.
Um, and there is a calypso song.
Um, you know, I'm sort ofpicking up, uh, trinidadians,
but they have a calypso songcalled susu, but I can't
remember for the life of me whosang it.
That they played, I think, atthe carnival.
Speaker 1 (47:22):
I will find it, don't worry I will.
I'm very diligent that way, soI'll find it, and, of course, be
sure to link all of those forour listeners tuning in.
As a closing, you know, reallywe've talked a lot about, you
know, these social and systemicissues that have really hindered
the ways that people of color,that Black people, marginalized
(47:43):
communities, et cetera, and theways that these structures have
really impacted our loans.
But there's also all of theseother sort of, you know, quick
loan businesses and all of theseother things that have been
arising that, in very similarways to or, you know, in line
with these capitalist systems,are threats to our freedoms,
(48:04):
right?
Capitalist systems are threatsto our freedoms, right?
And so, through you know, ourcultural awareness of Roskas and
other community bankingpractices.
Really, how do you hope that?
You know we continue toincrease the awareness of what
it teaches, not just, you know,internally, for being able to
afford, you know, the house, oryou know, sending your kid to
(48:26):
college, but the I think more so.
I'm coming from like aemotional and, you know,
internal knowledge or culturalknowledge perspective and other
things like financial literacyand all of those things that it
also teaches us as well.
Speaker 2 (48:41):
Yeah, I think that the way forward for these ROSCA
systems is to really educate,advocate and stop the harms and
start to recognize.
How do we remunerate?
In the Caribbean at leastthey're recognized and not
(49:06):
vilified like they are in theglobal north, but we're still
not paying or compensating womenfor this community-based work
in terms of mobilizing andsupporting and building really
strong civic societies.
And I think we need to thinkabout how do we start to program
community development funds orinternational development funds
(49:30):
towards community building.
That is, thinking about mutualaid, solidarity economies, rosca
systems where these women arethe experts and hire them.
They're doing this voluntarilyand I think that there has to be
a movement policy-wise to startincorporating Roskas as part of
(49:54):
human development, whether itbe trainings, whether they are
trainers, and to really putpressure on the cooperative
system to expand more democraticinstitutions, and ROSCAs can be
a part of that movementbuilding.
So across the US and Canadathere's lots of credit unions
(50:16):
and cooperatives.
We should start lobbying themto really recognize the validity
of these Roscoe movements andthat their partners wanting to
uplift membership institutionsso policy-wise for sure Share
the film about the banker ladies.
I mean that film was co-createdwith them.
(50:38):
It beat the release of my book.
Because these women were on amission, a practical mission to
change mindsets.
That's all they wanted is tochange mindsets for the kinds of
work that they're doing and forpeople to start seeing the
value of the Patna and Sususystem and to celebrate it in
(51:01):
society.
We all have a stake in makingsure that these ancestral
heirlooms of Roskas stay in oursociety, because it's not just
work that's good for Blackcitizens, but it's good work for
all people who feelmarginalized and alienated by
(51:22):
the current economic system.
Speaker 1 (51:24):
I think that is a beautiful point to end on.
So, dr Hossain, thank you somuch for joining us for this
episode, for sharing yourexpertise with us.
Big up to all Padnaparticipants and all banker
ladies.
This was really a tremendousepisode.
For our listeners tuning in, ifyou hadn't learned and heard of
Padna or Roskas before, I hopeyou really enjoyed and learned a
(51:47):
lot.
And for our listeners who arefamiliar, be sure to you know,
drop it in a comment or send usa DM or something like that and
tell us your familial Padnastory, or Susu or you know what
have you, and share what it hasmeant for the trajectory of your
family.
And so with that I will bringus to a close and until next
time, look more.
(52:07):
Thanks for tuning in toStrictly Facts.
Visit strictlyfactspodcastcomfor more information from each
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at Strictly Facts PD on Twitter.
Welcome to Strictly Facts, a guide to Caribbean
history and culture, hosted byme, alexandria Miller.
Strictly Facts teaches thehistory, politics and activism
of the Caribbean and connectsthese themes to contemporary
music and popular culture.
Hello, hello, good morning,good day, good night.
(00:23):
Thank you so much for spendingsome time with us at Strictly
Facts, a guide to Caribbeanhistory and culture, what I hope
is your favorite Caribbeanhistory and culture podcast.
One aspect I've loved about thepodcast and you know sharing
Strictly Facts and my interestin Caribbean history with so
many of you is the fact thatCaribbean people have always
(00:44):
protested and creativelycircumvented barriers to their
freedom.
In a lot of ways, right, and youknow, in a lot of ways that's a
result of the racial, gendered,social standings.
We'll get into a lot of thosethings today, but our discussion
really is focusing on one ofthose really creative ways of
circumventing these barriers,not just in terms of our social
(01:05):
standings, but also to betterour economic standings, through
community practices, throughunity, through finances
especially.
And so, if you have heard ofPadna, of Susu, of Boxhand there
are many names that you knowand we'll get a little bit more
into that as well in ourconversation today, but that is
precisely what we are discussing, and so, before we get too deep
(01:28):
, I have the pleasure of beingjoined by Dr Caroline
Shannaz-Hossein, canada ResearchChair in Africana Development
and Feminist Political Economyand Associate Professor of
Global Development and PoliticalEconomy at the University of
Toronto, scarborough, as well asthe founder of Diverse
Solidarity Economies Collective.
(01:49):
Dr Hossein, thank you so muchfor joining us here at Strictly
Facts today.
Why don't you kick us off alittle bit with telling us a bit
about yourself, your connectionto the Caribbean and what
inspired your interest inpolitical economy and
development?
Speaker 2 (02:03):
So I want to say thank you, alexandria, for
having me on this podcast, wherewe focus and pay attention to
innovations that are happeningin the Caribbean region, but
also in the diaspora.
It's a real honor and pleasurefor me to be here with you.
So my name is Caroline Hossain.
(02:23):
Most days, I'm so happy to be apart of a feminist economics
collective called the DiceCollective, and that's what
sustains me in terms of theresearch I'm doing, because
we're always thinking aboutpluralizing our economic systems
to ensure that we have moreequality and justness within the
(02:45):
ways in which we work inbusiness and society.
My connection to the Caribbeanis that I am part of that
diaspora.
I was born in New York City toCaribbean parents.
My mom is of Grenadian and StVincent background but grew up
in Trinidad so the ultimateCaribbean woman and my father is
(03:09):
Indo-Guyanese and he is alsosomeone who is very proud of his
culture and legacy, like youjust mentioned earlier, and so I
come from both Africandescendants and Indo descendants
from the Caribbean.
Some of your listeners mightknow what a Dougla is, so I see
(03:31):
myself as a Dougla feminist andI'm very proud of that heritage.
I was born in New York City,raised by Caribbean immigrant
parents who relocated late 60sto the US and then migrated on
to Toronto, canada, where wehave a very vibrant and lively
Caribbean community.
(03:51):
You mentioned you're fromJamaica, so lots and lots of
Jamaicans here for decades inToronto Canada, and so I've had
this back and forth relationshipwith family spread across the
Caribbean but also within theUnited States and Canada, so my
Caribbean histories and tracesare quite rich and diverse in
(04:15):
terms of geography.
So I was fortunate enough whileI was a doctoral student to do
my Fulbright in Jamaica atUEMONA, but I also traveled the
region, particularly in Haiti,jamaica, guyana, trinidad and
Grenada, and to really thinkthrough more formalized
financial programs targeting thepoor, the entrepreneurial poor,
(04:40):
and that's really when Istarted getting interested in
alternative economic systems andhow they touch people within
the Caribbean but also in thediaspora.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
Just a brief shout out to my Scarborough family
that I know is tuning in.
So, as you said, we are a verybig diaspora and so Caribbean
people are all over the place.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
I live in Scarborough .
Speaker 1 (05:04):
Yes.
So I was, like you know, got togive a good shout out.
I know they're tuning in.
All that being said, and youknow, as you really are bringing
us to this point of solidarityeconomies, as I briefly raised
already, there are a lot ofnames that you know these sort
of practices can be known by,and they differ a little bit
(05:24):
across the region.
So you know, padna, as Imentioned, in Jamaica, susu or
Susu in Trinidad, and theBahamas Lodge in St Lucia,
boxhand in Guyana, seoul inHaiti, and the list goes on and
on.
But from an academicperspective, in a way, they're
sometimes referred to asrotating savings and credit
(05:45):
associations and have, you know,really helped Caribbean people,
even members of my own family,make tremendous strides, whether
that be starting a business,you know, putting a down payment
on a house, sending their kidsto college, all of these things
right, and they are, in a way, asort of money pool I'm putting
it very tersely in a sense, butsort of a money pool which
(06:08):
allows, you know, members ofyour family or your community to
get together as an alternativeto maybe taking out a bank loan
or something like that.
So, you know, as our residentexpert sharing with us today.
Could you share with us alittle bit more about this
practice and how it even reallyworks and why people use them
really?
Speaker 2 (06:26):
Yeah, I think, alexandria, you did a great job
at sort of really pinning downthe definition of what I call
are very ancient cooperativeeconomic systems that are global
in their orientation.
These kind of socialinnovations started in the
global South, all over the world.
You know, in India they havechit, in China they have hua.
(06:50):
Across the Arab world it'sgameyas.
Mexico, latin America call themtandas.
So of course, within theCaribbean region, that continues
this rich African tradition ofSusu and Itiga out of Kenya and
Huggabud in Somalia.
(07:10):
So there's so many rich,diverse economic cooperative
institutions that are rooted inwhat we know as mutual aid
groups, and these are mutual aidfinancial groups that are not
unfamiliar to developed countrycontexts.
But everywhere in the worldpeople have a history of using
(07:33):
these kinds of financial systemsthrough some sort of group
mechanism.
And so, as you mentionedcorrectly, roskus is the
official academic word, but mostpeople in the Caribbean region
will refer to them in theirvernacular, as you said.
You know Jamaicans, forJamaicans it's partner right or
(07:54):
partner, or however which waythey say it.
You know you have meeting turnbox, hand, susu.
You know lodge, tontine, soul,I mean there's so many
colloquial, localized love namesthat actually the women who
organize them and callthemselves the banker ladies
(08:16):
have been really big proponentsof call it what you like,
because that's where it givesmeaning, and so we've been
really doing an inventory, if Ican say, of these kinds of
systems that have this sharedglobal phenomenon of people sort
of do-it-yourself finance andpooling economic goods together.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
But really that financial transaction is only
one piece of what Roskas bringto people who participate as
members in these collectiveinstitutions different things,
(09:04):
whether that's food, you know wehave foods that would be called
one thing in one island, it'sthe same food in another island,
it's just by another name.
And I think it even expands outbeyond that because, as you
mentioned, these practices areall over the world.
But even really connecting someof the names to the continent
and you know various countriesin Africa have very similar
names, or you know the samenames to some of the islands in
(09:27):
the region.
And so, just a way to you know,bridge our communities even
beyond the immediate Caribbean,but extend it outward For our
listeners who may not befamiliar.
And I think, in a way, to anextent, as time has gone on,
it's maybe become less currentand maybe future generations are
(09:48):
less aware of Padna or of theseRaskas, as you mentioned.
But the way that it works forour listeners, if you're unaware
, so there is a banker, a bankerlady, if it's a woman or you
know, but generally there's abanker who is, you know, in the
same way we would think of banksas kind of like the holder of
the money, right, and so you getyour group together, everybody
(10:08):
puts in their $100 or whateverthe amount is, and you know
there's a specific way in whichyou set your terms right.
So it's, if it's every week or,you know, once a month,
whatever that looks like, andthen each person within the bank
or this banking system rotatesand gets their share of that
(10:28):
collective pool.
So if there are seven peoplewithin the structure you know,
everybody puts in their $100,the pool is $700.
And so every week if that'syour term, that you said it,
every week a different personwithin this pool gets the $700,
for instance, said it, everyweek, a different person within
this pool gets the $700, forinstance.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
And that's what's so beautiful about these systems,
and I think you've really sortof underlined an essential
practice, which is democracybuilding.
These institutions are rootedin democracy and consensus
building.
Members voluntarily cometogether.
It could be because theseinstitutions are born out of
crisis, which could be businessor financial exclusion.
(11:12):
It could be because ofloneliness.
I mean.
The reasons in terms of whypeople come together to create a
Rosca, to create a SUSU, tocreate a POTNA, will vary.
To create a susu, to create apartner, will vary, but what's
key here is that members cometogether.
They decide what thatleadership will look like.
(11:36):
So, as you mentioned, sometimesthere is a chief banker.
So the chief banker, lady right, who will spend a lot of time
organizing and facilitating andmobilizing the membership to
make contributions on cycles anddurations that everyone agrees
to.
That's what's beautiful aboutRosca they have a starting point
and an ending point and everymember has a vote or a voice in
(12:02):
terms of what that institutionwill look like.
So ROSCA's do vary in terms ofcycle and duration, but they're
primarily for people who are notfamiliar with them.
They're primarily a savingsmobilization, where people have
a fixed sum of money that theywill give in intervals to one
(12:23):
another like a gift, and in turn, everyone will access a lump
sum of money that wascontributed to a larger pool, so
that, instead of you savingtirelessly for a year to get
that major purchase, you canactually do that much faster,
particularly if you're earlierin the queue to access that lump
(12:45):
sum of money.
Yeah, and so it's about thisidea of camaraderie people
supporting one another, peopleassisting each other, not just
through financial transactionsalone, because the social
dimension is huge, like peoplemake sure that they're meeting
up to give courage, to continuewith your life and dream
(13:09):
projects, but also to thinkthrough how do you repair harms
that have happened to you insociety.
So it's a real conversation.
It's a real foodie paradise,really.
People get together and do agreat cook-up and they have
great conversation, do a lot ofhealing, but they're also
(13:31):
dreaming while they're comingtogether.
So, yeah, rosca's systems themechanisms in how people
organize these institutions isreally done collectively by
members, and so I like to likenthese institutions to what
people already know cooperativesand credit unions, and many of
(13:55):
those institutions which aremembership-based started off
informally, because they wereoften born because of some major
crisis or tragedy that theyfelt that commercial,
individualized institutions werenot addressing, and so Roskas
(14:17):
belong to that kind of businesslegacy of membership-based
institutions who think of thegroup as being really central to
how we thrive.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
Thank you.
I really appreciate, you know,you cementing us in the sort of
like historical legacies of itand why they've started right,
as we all have, you know,certainly talked about, whether
that's within this podcast orbeyond.
As we know, through historiesof colonialism, of imperialism,
right, these structures havebeen put in place to disinherit
to, you know, I mean bepropertied and and rid people of
(14:55):
their rights in a lot of ways.
And I think oftentimes we talkabout freedom in a sense of
political freedom, right, you'rea citizen not being referred to
as property, but also a largepart of that freedom is our
economic, you know, endeavorsand wanting to feed our families
and grow, et cetera, and inmany ways, you know, these
systems have thwarted people'sabilities to do that.
(15:18):
And you know Patna Raskas, asyou know, it's also known as our
ways to circumvent that.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
People brought over on boats, this idea of food and
music and art and dress fashion,all of these kind of real,
major contributions to make theCaribbean and the world better.
Actually, this infusion ofAfrican culture and life.
(15:50):
Why wouldn't people also bringtheir expertise and know-how
about how we do business insociety?
And that's exactly what peoplebrought.
They taught us how to humanizeeconomic systems.
There's actually a beautifulbook.
It was written in 1996.
I always refer people to it.
(16:11):
It was written by two women,sandra Berman and Shirley Ardner
, and they wrote this bookcalled Money Go Rounds, and
Money Go Rounds is.
I take it as a case study.
It doesn't read as a harshacademic text.
Rather it's a beautifulunfolding of stories from around
the world, in the West but alsoin the South, of why women
(16:36):
particularly gravitate to theseRoska, mutual Aid, financial
Economic Systems, and thestories that unfold are quite
powerful in terms of how peoplemitigate intrusions on their
freedoms, but also how they openup new opportunities in terms
(16:58):
of friendships and the kinds oflife and business projects that
they want to do in the future.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
That sort of you know is a great point to connect us
to even the work in your book aswell For our listeners tuning
in who want to check it out.
The name of Dr Hussain's book isthe Banker Ladies, vanguards of
Solidarity Economics andCommunity-Based Banks.
There's also an accompanyingdocumentary so I'll be sure to
link both of those forinterested listeners.
(17:27):
But in a lot of ways your workhighlights what I think, at
least in my mind, wasn't alwayssuper underscored in my
understanding of Padnas.
It's always been very communalright, but I don't think I
necessarily was aware of howmuch women in a lot of ways
dominated, as you're outliningfor us.
(17:47):
And so in a lot of ways yourwork highlights both how women
have been really central in thecontinuation of Rosca's, as well
as the community knowledge andAfrocentric approaches to
economics that have transpiredas a result and so sort of how
do you see these groupsdiffering from Western
capitalist principles andteachings that you know really
(18:10):
primarily and I may be leadingyou in a way, but they
prioritize the individual rightas opposed to the community in a
lot of ways.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
Yeah, and I think that that's the whole game with
this push for modernity right,we try to give these sort of
corporate, neoliberalprescriptions of what success
and business in society lookslike.
And it's always linear, it'salways a linear project, it's
always individualized, it'salways privatized and there's
(18:42):
always this understanding thatthere's one rational actor, that
there's no other alternative tothe corporate business model.
And what these women whoorganize Roskas in the Caribbean
, in the diaspora, are doing arepushing against inequities,
(19:02):
inequality, business exclusion,by saying that those
prescriptions of individuality,of demeaning culture, of
thinking that the communal isinferior, and what they're doing
is pushing against thatrhetoric, those stereotypes, to
(19:24):
negate African collectivity, toshow that there is value, that
there is a logic to cooperation,that there is a logic to
collectivity.
Nobel Peace Prize winnerEleanor Ostrom wrote a book
called Governing the Commons.
So we know within the academicarenas that women have always
(19:49):
been at the forefront in termsof thinking through how to
mobilize communities in astrategic way to maintain
humanity.
And that's what exactly thebanker ladies are doing.
You know, there is a rationalefor grouping together when times
(20:11):
are complex and so collectivity, this idea of self-initiative
when you're being excluded, isvery much the thought process of
the work and life story ofMarcus Garvey, right, like this
whole idea of thinking throughbusiness on your own terms,
(20:34):
right.
And I like the work of RobinKelly.
You know Freedom Dreams, I mean.
This just shows this idea ofemancipation and liberation
comes from within, right.
And the idea that these womenare pushing against corporate
ways of doing business bychoosing collectivity is really
(20:56):
key because what they're sayingis that trust and reciprocity
trust and reciprocity, not rawprofiteering is what matters in
this world.
And that's a huge response topeople who really are convinced
that there is no otheralternative to the ways and that
growth, the growth thesis, isthe only way that we can move
(21:20):
and modernize society.
And they're like putting thebrakes on that because they're
saying there's value to mutualaid, there's value to
collectivity and that's howwe're going to empower not just
women but all of society.
And so they're leading us toreally think through how does
(21:41):
development look, how does morejust economic systems look, if
we were to do that together,collectively?
Speaker 1 (21:51):
One of the most interesting parts to me in your
book is just the way you havereally mapped what these Roskas
look like across differentplaces.
You have really mapped whatthese Roskas look like across
different places in a very ofcourse you know this is a
Caribbean podcast and we talkabout diaspora all the time,
(22:12):
right, but there are obviously,as you know, distinctions
between.
You know what it looks like inparts of Africa, in the
Caribbean, in you know, theglobal north, as people have
migrated to US, canada, uk, etc.
Global north as people havemigrated to US, canada, uk, etc.
You included a picture in yourbook, but there is this very
vivid moment for me upon readingit, where there's a picture I
can't remember which Africancountry right now, but there's a
(22:33):
picture of like what is more orless their Padna like place,
which to me was so interestingbecause it's always been like a
oh you know, cousin, auntie,whatever has to go drop off the
money at the banker's house orwhatever, as opposed to an
actual location, and so couldyou share a little bit about you
know how you've seen some ofthese distinctions between or
(22:57):
across different places, andanother thing that I think comes
up throughout your book is theways that they're looked at
differently.
It's very much so celebrated inthe Caribbean, but you've seen
very different world,particularly those Caribbean
women who keep holding it upevery day.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
There's a term that I love coming out of Haiti, the
potomitan, because I think thatthat terminology is so powerful
in that it speaks to sort ofwomen holding up society Right,
and there is so much of thatgoing on within the Caribbean
and its diaspora and when youtravel to understand where these
(23:55):
systems come from in Africa.
I traveled to Ethiopia andGhana a lot in writing this book
, and Ghana a lot in writingthis book, and it was such a
non-issue the value of thesecooperative money systems.
In Ethiopia they call them ekub, and in Ghana it's known as
susu, and I think what you'rereferring to in the book is a
(24:18):
photo of the National Ghana SusuCooperative Institution, and
they had regional offices inCape Town and in Accra.
We have so much to learn fromthe South in terms of their
pragmatism in recognizinginformal institutions that the
(24:41):
populations benefit from, and soin Ghana they have these
powerful susu systems that themajority of the population are
engaging in.
Most of it's informal andthere's no red flags with that
For them.
It's seen as something positivefor society that it enhances
(25:03):
who we are in civil society.
It builds social bonds, butthey also wanted to make room
for those people who wanted moreinsurance or guarantees when
risk could happen.
And so Ghana has taken on avery pragmatic approach to
thinking about SUSU, both in theformal but also in the informal
(25:26):
, and creating that space intheir financial ecosystem so
that both kinds of SUSU canoperate and function in their
business world.
And so Ghana is one example.
In South Africa they have thesestock bail systems and they've
taken on more of a capacitybuilding approach to stock bail
(25:48):
system, and so they have theNational Stock Bail Association
of South Africa, nasasa, andthey do mostly training to
upgrade and to spur on savingsand collectivity among people in
their country.
If we travel to South India, inKerala, people have a powerful
(26:13):
system, generally in India butmostly in the South, of
legalizing the chit system,localizing the CHIT system.
That's what they call theirRASCAs, because they see the
power of collective savingsamong people who feel abused and
(26:34):
profiled when they go intobanking systems.
And so they've thought aboutreally consciously thought about
how do we now incorporate aboutreally consciously thought
about how do we now incorporatelocalized systems that come out
of the grassroots for people whomay feel alienated by corporate
or commercial banks.
And so I think we you know wetend to export knowledge and
(26:58):
technical assistance to theSouth.
But what this work has beendoing has been really importing
expertise from the South toplaces like Canada and really
learning that, you know, racialcapitalism is very much embedded
in the Americas, in Europe,where Blacks are minorities and
(27:22):
are feeling under attack,particularly in this era, and so
this idea of group economicsthat Du Bois wrote about many,
many, many years ago still hasso much relevance in the world
we live in today.
Jessica Gordon-Nembhard is anAmerican feminist and economist
(27:48):
who is writing aboutcooperatives for decades, and
she wrote a book calledCollective Courage where she
outlines traces the historicaltraditions of cooperative
institutions across the UnitedStates and recognizes that many
of these institutions had to behidden because of the dangers
(28:12):
and life threats if people wentpublic about their informal or
formal cooperative institutions.
So there's a real sort ofdivergence in my work between
the Roskas that appear in theCaribbean and then the kind of
traumas that unfold when theyappear in big cities like
(28:37):
Toronto, miami, new York City orLondon, england, the kinds of
harms that are happening to thesame cooperators who come out of
Africa and the Caribbean.
Speaker 1 (28:49):
You did mention risks involved and I don't know if,
in doing the work of trying tounderstand what ROSCA's are and
how they work and you know,obviously they've had a
tremendous impact.
But with all things, they're notperfect right, and so it could
be risky, if no sense, if youknow a person in your group
(29:10):
doesn't put in their hand or youknow the banker goes missing.
Nothing is perfect, but thosecan be certain situations that
arise from being in a ROSCA.
But I think, moreoverwhelmingly than not, we do
have to take into account whatrisks look like in terms of you
know that might be a risk if yougo the ROSCA route, but then
what is the alternative if it's,you know the bank isn't
(29:33):
necessarily even going to lendyou money for whatever reason or
what may have you.
So certain things to just takeinto account for those wanting
to understand Roscoe's.
I did bring up, you know, thissort of changing dynamic in
terms of the awareness andcelebration of Roscoe's,
especially as we, you know, havemoved through time and space.
How have you really seen Roskaschange and really the awareness
(29:57):
and celebration of them?
And you know that could be in alot of ways, due to, of course,
migrations and movement, butalso how have they changed due
to you know things liketechnology.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
Lots of things to unpack here and exciting, and
there's so much scope for newlines of inquiry with this kind
of research.
So I hope that what at leastI'm doing with many others
who've been thinking aboutinformal institutions is really
sort of now creating an openingfor people in the academy to
(30:31):
start really taking serious this, these kinds of institutions
that are women-led, blackwomen-led in particular, but
also that they have chosenpurposefully to work and grow
informal types of institutionsbecause they see value for it in
(30:52):
our quote-unquote modernsociety.
I just wanted to touch a littlebit about the kinds of
challenges that happen withinRASCAs.
As you mentioned earlier, wehave to be careful not to
romanticize RASCAs, because witheverything in our world there's
always a degree of risk, forsure.
(31:15):
And how do you manage that?
And so over the years of doingmy research, I found that people
would come out in droves,unlike when I was studying more
professionalized microfinance.
I had to try to convince peopleto show up to these meetings,
but with the partner or the susuor the box, and people would
(31:36):
fill a room, because this is thefirst time for many that people
were coming to them to ask fortheir expertise on a financial
system.
That was about knowing thingsthat could bring positive change
in society, and so I alwaysfelt very humbled by that
(31:57):
turnout for these focus groupsor meetings, collective meetings
we would have in various places.
And the one thing that I notedpartway through my research is
that I needed to speak to Roscausers, these SUSU you know
participants and members aboutthe dangers or the risks that
(32:20):
unfold when people participatein these groups, just so that we
have clarity on what people aregetting into.
And what I found in thesegroups is that people would let
you know about.
You know there could be theft,there could be someone
absconding.
Sometimes confusion orfavoritism, lack of privacy are
(32:41):
issues that happen when you havean informal, community-driven
bank like a Roscoe Podno or Susugoing on.
That are some of the issuesthat people have to contend with
, and even with the mostegregious stories that I heard
in that room, I would always askthe question how many of you
still participate in one ofthese Roscas?
(33:04):
And overwhelmingly the majorityof people would raise back that
hand after telling me for aboutan hour and a half of the
tragedy and harms theyexperienced or the risks they
endured when they participatedin a ROSCA, and often people
would bring it down togovernance, leadership as being
(33:24):
a problem within the ROSCA tomanage or steward the resources.
So it wasn't as though theywere giving up on the actual
concept of what an informalcollective money system looks
like.
Rather, they weren't convincedby, perhaps, the leadership or
some of the members and how theywere vetted to really manage
those resources.
(33:46):
I say this because there is acommitment and a loyalty to
these Rosca systems,particularly for people who have
very limited options in termsof how they bank, or for people
who find that it's more thanjust a money transaction.
It's about building socialbonds and camaraderie.
And so later I started tounderstand why people would come
(34:11):
to a focus group, speak aboutthe grievances within Orozco but
at the same time admit quitehonestly that they still
participated in those groups.
Because the love for thosefinancial systems is cultural.
It has been a legacy, anheirloom that has been passed
(34:33):
down through generations.
And because there's one mishapdoesn't mean that the system is
defective.
It just means that we have todo better in terms of how we
structure accountability.
And I thought how powerful isthat when people come together
through their own citizenengagement and figure out what
(34:56):
rules make sense?
So I know I diverted away fromyour question in terms of like
sort of innovations that arehappening in the Rosca system,
and they're a lot.
Technology has really taken over, particularly with the younger
generation I say people in their20s and 30s, across Europe and
(35:19):
North America.
It's a way of them staying intouch and expanding membership
to reach all the way back to theCaribbean.
It's beautiful to see thatspace isn't an interruption now
in terms of how Raskas havehistorically been done, many of
the women when I started morethan a decade ago doing this
(35:40):
work, were meeting at people'shouses, churches or mosques, I
mean that's or schools.
That's how people did it Faceto face, in person.
Do a potluck or meet atsomeone's house, right, have
jerk, have your roti, whatever.
It was like a celebration,really a party, and they would
all be like we're doing our FETfor Patna this week or whatever,
(36:03):
and it's great, right.
But now these things haveevolved.
The pandemic happened.
Younger people are seeing thevalue of what they call
peer-to-peer lending and theylike technology and that's why
now banker ladies are thinkingstrategically in Toronto, canada
(36:23):
, about how do you mobilize andadvocate for a rightful
recognition of these informalinstitutions and how do you now
start to think about a littlebit more of not necessarily
formal legal recognition, but anappreciation for the
(36:46):
contributions that mutual aidgroups give to society, so that
when people are using thesesystems, they don't have to do
them in obscurity, they don'thave to be fearful that these
resources will be confiscated,and so that people are now
thinking through and those areadditional risks.
To get back to our story on riskis that in North America, the
(37:10):
divergence is that people arefeeling surveilled when they
participate on their own accordto gift each other these ROSCA
payments.
They feel as though there arethreats to participating in
groups like this.
It's seen as subversive orillegal.
And there's nothing illegalabout these systems because it's
(37:31):
about self-help and cooperation, and so technology has played a
major role.
When people can't meet inperson, pandemics racism, racial
capitalism that people arefiguring out how to use
applications on their phones toshare monies.
Speaker 1 (37:54):
I've certainly thought through that and even
you know, on one sense, theability of that to even extend
out your, your Padna or yourRoscoe, right before it would be
.
You know somebody that youcould more easily access by car,
by walking, or you know thosesorts of modes of transportation
, but now you could be in aPadna from.
You were in college in your 20sor something, and then you
(38:17):
migrate out to the US, forinstance, and still want to
participate and in a lot of ways, due to technology, can still
be able to do that.
But also, I think that pointthat you're making in terms of
surveillance and how these othersort of more formalized or, of
course, global and capitaliststructures impact our abilities
(38:39):
to feel safe within thesecommunal practices as well.
Speaker 2 (38:44):
And you know, these systems are evolving all the
time.
Like when you think aboutthings like financial
technologies, or they call themfintech, or you think about
microfinance or microcredit andcrowdfunding.
What are the roots and theorigins of these institutions?
The genealogy will trace youback to these Rosca systems,
(39:08):
which were really communal,collectively, done in a group
circle type setting that peoplethen would help and bestow
resources social or financial onthose that needed that kind of
support.
Right, and so I think that youknow we think of all this
evolution of Roskas.
(39:30):
They have really sort of spreadthe light in terms of what is
possible with the ways in whichwe work with money to repair
harms and deal with inequity inbusiness.
Right, and so crowdfunding isreally an updated version, right
(39:51):
, of this money pooling partnersystem that we all know and love
.
Right, but we often don'tcredit it, we don't cite these
women for this major piece ofwork that they have been doing
for centuries.
Speaker 1 (40:08):
On that point, I will , in a bit of a way, bring us to
one of my favorite segments ofthe podcast, which is our
Strictly Facts Sound segment.
In a lot of ways, I immediatelywent to be quite frank.
When we agreed to do thisepisode, I immediately was like,
oh, I have to talk about thisone song that talks about Padma.
But before we get there, whatare some of your favorite ways
(40:31):
Roskas show up in?
Speaker 2 (40:32):
you know whether that's particularly to the
Caribbean or the diaspora, butfor our popular culture, which
ways they're represented to me,but there's been a number of
(40:54):
calypso hits in Trinidad thatspeak about susu and the value
of people coming together tosupport one another in hard
times.
But for sure, more recentlyI've been really happy with
looking at how a museum hastaken seriously the work and the
writings of the Windrushgeneration coming out of London
(41:19):
and England, particularlyJamaican immigrants who went
there in the 30s, 40s and 50s,and sort of the atrocities and
the vile racism that they had toencounter when they went there
to work, and that in so many ofthe stories.
When you read these smallstories about the Windrush
(41:44):
generation and there's a lot ofthem online, if you just Google
Windrush and you read about thestories, the sort of personal
accounts of what people had togo through without fail, you'll
always hear about the partnersystem, because that played a
vital role in sort of settlingimmigrants into their new
(42:04):
society and giving them a leg up.
People weren't allowed to go tobanks or there was no space for
them, so they created their ownbanking system and what's
beautiful is that decades laterin the United Kingdom, in London
, seat of empire, the Bank ofEngland Museum, in partnership
(42:27):
with a very feisty Caribbean duo, a mother and daughter, who run
this museum and heritage museum, came together and created an
exhibit on the pot in hand, andthat is, to me, the ultimate
expression of art, reallybringing home the value and the
(42:52):
financial expertise thatCaribbean people have brought
from home to the rest of theworld.
Because when corporations andcommercial banks have been
complicit in extending racialcapitalism and bias against
(43:15):
people who emigrate to thesecountries, the Bank of England
recognized the value and theingenuity of Caribbean people to
devise their own cooperativebanks called PARTNA, and to see
and witness that on full displayat the Bank of England's museum
(43:39):
, who has been so problematicwith slavery to be able to, for
us to go to that exhibit wherethousands of people pass through
that museum, was reallysomething to anchor and validate
the work that these women havebeen doing for centuries, and so
(44:01):
for me that is the ultimate.
So if people have time, theywant to check out the Patna
exhibit at the Bank of EnglandMuseum with MuseumAnd they most
definitely should, because it'sbeautiful, it's a beautiful
thing to see.
It kind of really doesunderline sort of all the hard
(44:22):
work that they have been doingfor years without any credit or
citation, and I'm so glad thatwe get to sing about these
experiences.
We write poetry about the Patnaand the Susu system, but to
actually see it in a museum thathas wronged the Caribbean
diaspora for so long and forthem to validate and recognize
(44:45):
that as something we brought asa contribution to financial
economies is important,definitely, definitely.
Speaker 1 (44:53):
I will be sure to link that for our listeners if
they definitely want moreinformation, want to check it
out.
My recommendations are a littleless formal, but I do think
museums, in a way, are veryproud statements, as you
outlined for us right In a lotof ways I hope we take more
advantage of.
And it's like a portal.
Speaker 2 (45:15):
Right, it's a portal for people who don't even know
about these systems and to belike, oh, that's what they're
doing after church, you knowwhat I mean.
And then for them to say, oh,it's not negative, look at how
it's being.
These stories are beingexplained, it has some purpose,
right?
(45:35):
Yeah, go ahead, I want to hearyour contributions I have.
Speaker 1 (45:41):
I have a book which is called Padna Money Stories by
Deanne Heron.
I think there's been a part oneand a part two, I believe and
in a lot of ways, I think it'svery, you know, funny.
It's comical, but also, at thecore of it obviously is Padna
and the ways that it has helpedsupport her family through
(46:02):
migrations beyond Jamaica to,you know, to the UK, to the US,
et cetera.
The other one I'm always goingto, if I can do a song of, just
as a lover of music.
So, in 2018, dance hall artistShano, you know, released a song
called Pana Dra and you know,of course, it's a song, it's a
(46:23):
dance hall song, so it's upbeatsong.
It's a dancehall song, so it'supbeat, it's things to that
nature.
But I think it's reallyspeaking to what we've talked
about today in terms of its, youknow, ability to help really,
um, support our dreams and ourcommunities.
Like, there's a point in thechorus where he says wait till I
get my padna, may I go buy mamaeverything she want?
(46:43):
Or there's another line when hegets his Padna draw, he would
put it down on a house thathe'll be proud of, right?
These are really the thingsthat undergird Padna right, it's
the fact that it is to supportus in funding these things that
have been systemically notreally available to us in a lot
of ways.
Speaker 2 (47:03):
So like the everyday uses right of the system.
Yeah, that's great.
Um, and there is a calypso song.
Um, you know, I'm sort ofpicking up, uh, trinidadians,
but they have a calypso songcalled susu, but I can't
remember for the life of me whosang it.
That they played, I think, atthe carnival.
Speaker 1 (47:22):
I will find it, don't worry I will.
I'm very diligent that way, soI'll find it, and, of course, be
sure to link all of those forour listeners tuning in.
As a closing, you know, reallywe've talked a lot about, you
know, these social and systemicissues that have really hindered
the ways that people of color,that Black people, marginalized
(47:43):
communities, et cetera, and theways that these structures have
really impacted our loans.
But there's also all of theseother sort of, you know, quick
loan businesses and all of theseother things that have been
arising that, in very similarways to or, you know, in line
with these capitalist systems,are threats to our freedoms,
(48:04):
right?
Capitalist systems are threatsto our freedoms, right?
And so, through you know, ourcultural awareness of Roskas and
other community bankingpractices.
Really, how do you hope that?
You know we continue toincrease the awareness of what
it teaches, not just, you know,internally, for being able to
afford, you know, the house, oryou know, sending your kid to
(48:26):
college, but the I think more so.
I'm coming from like aemotional and, you know,
internal knowledge or culturalknowledge perspective and other
things like financial literacyand all of those things that it
also teaches us as well.
Speaker 2 (48:41):
Yeah, I think that the way forward for these ROSCA
systems is to really educate,advocate and stop the harms and
start to recognize.
How do we remunerate?
In the Caribbean at leastthey're recognized and not
(49:06):
vilified like they are in theglobal north, but we're still
not paying or compensating womenfor this community-based work
in terms of mobilizing andsupporting and building really
strong civic societies.
And I think we need to thinkabout how do we start to program
community development funds orinternational development funds
(49:30):
towards community building.
That is, thinking about mutualaid, solidarity economies, rosca
systems where these women arethe experts and hire them.
They're doing this voluntarilyand I think that there has to be
a movement policy-wise to startincorporating Roskas as part of
(49:54):
human development, whether itbe trainings, whether they are
trainers, and to really putpressure on the cooperative
system to expand more democraticinstitutions, and ROSCAs can be
a part of that movementbuilding.
So across the US and Canadathere's lots of credit unions
(50:16):
and cooperatives.
We should start lobbying themto really recognize the validity
of these Roscoe movements andthat their partners wanting to
uplift membership institutionsso policy-wise for sure Share
the film about the banker ladies.
I mean that film was co-createdwith them.
(50:38):
It beat the release of my book.
Because these women were on amission, a practical mission to
change mindsets.
That's all they wanted is tochange mindsets for the kinds of
work that they're doing and forpeople to start seeing the
value of the Patna and Sususystem and to celebrate it in
(51:01):
society.
We all have a stake in makingsure that these ancestral
heirlooms of Roskas stay in oursociety, because it's not just
work that's good for Blackcitizens, but it's good work for
all people who feelmarginalized and alienated by
(51:22):
the current economic system.
Speaker 1 (51:24):
I think that is a beautiful point to end on.
So, dr Hossain, thank you somuch for joining us for this
episode, for sharing yourexpertise with us.
Big up to all Padnaparticipants and all banker
ladies.
This was really a tremendousepisode.
For our listeners tuning in, ifyou hadn't learned and heard of
Padna or Roskas before, I hopeyou really enjoyed and learned a
(51:47):
lot.
And for our listeners who arefamiliar, be sure to you know,
drop it in a comment or send usa DM or something like that and
tell us your familial Padnastory, or Susu or you know what
have you, and share what it hasmeant for the trajectory of your
family.
And so with that I will bringus to a close and until next
time, look more.
(52:07):
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