June 25, 2025 • 53 mins
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When we picture World War I and II, we rarely envision Caribbean soldiers in RAF uniforms flying bombing missions over Nazi Germany or Trinidad's oil refineries fueling the Battle of Britain. Yet these overlooked contributions not only helped defeat fascism but transformed the Caribbean's political landscape forever. In this eye-opening episode, historian John Concagh joins Strictly Facts to uncover how over 15,000 Caribbean volunteers served in WWI and 6,000 more in WWII, despite facing what Concagh calls a "shadow color bar" within British forces. We explore the complex motivations driving Caribbean people to fight in these global conflicts – from colonial loyalty to active anti-fascism – and the bitter disappointment many faced upon being relegated to labor battalions rather than combat roles.
The conversation highlights remarkable individuals whose war service shaped their later political careers, including Errol Barrow, who flew 48 bomber missions before becoming Barbados' first Prime Minister, and Ulric Cross, whose 80 missions with the elite Pathfinder force preceded his influential legal career across the post-colonial Caribbean. As Concagh powerfully observes, "When you've been shot at over Germany at 20,000 feet in the middle of the night, the British aren't very scary anymore" – explaining how military service emboldened veterans to demand independence upon their return. Beyond military service, we discover how the Caribbean's strategic position and resources – from Trinidad's aviation fuel to Jamaica's bauxite – proved crucial to Allied victory. From wartime calypso songs mocking Hitler to today's memorial sites across the region, this episode reveals how the Caribbean's war experiences continue to shape cultural memory and national identity. Listen now to understand how fighting fascism abroad inspired the fight for freedom at home.
John Concagh is a historian from London whose work focuses on the relationship between Britain’s African and Caribbean colonies and the challenges of the Second World War. Follow John online.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Strictly Facts, a guide to Caribbean
history and culture hosted by me, alexandria Miller.
Strictly Facts teaches thehistory, politics and activism
of the Caribbean and connectsthese themes to contemporary
music and popular culture.
Hello, hello everyone, wagwan,and welcome back to another
(00:22):
episode of Strictly Facts, aguide to Caribbean history and
culture, where we dive deep intothe histories, struggles and
resistance that have shapedCaribbean people at home and
abroad.
I'm your host, alexandra Miller, and today we are continuing to
explore Caribbean militaryhistories, this time getting
into the powerful yet oftenoverlooked chapter of global
(00:43):
history how the Caribbeancontributed to and was impacted
by the world wars.
Now, when most people think ofWorld War I and II, you know
things like Normandy and youknow European trenches and all
of these things sort of come tomind, or at least that's what I
was sort of taught about.
However, we cannot overlookthese important contributions of
(01:06):
the rest of the British Empire,so that's including the
Caribbean, of course, but India,many parts of the continent of
Africa, right, they were alldeeply entangled in this
conflict across.
You know the first half of the20th century, and so we'll look
at today.
You know the soldiers century,and so we'll look at today.
(01:27):
You know the soldiers, theworkers, the economy, the
ideologies that emerged fromthis period, and we'll connect
the dots between the globalconflict and the local
transformation.
But before we get too much intothat, I am really grateful to
have John Conka join us for ourdiscussion today.
He is a historian of World WarII and, you know, I'm just again
really grateful to have himbecause this is an episode that
(01:48):
I've really wanted to do forquite some time now.
So, john, welcome to StrictlyFacts.
Why don't you tell ourlisteners a little bit more
about yourself?
You know your, of course,connection to the region and
what inspired your, you know,passion and interest in studying
World War II.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
Yes, well, first of all, thank you.
I'm really excited to be hereto talk about this.
I think this, that connectionbetween the Caribbean and the
global conflict of the 20thcentury, is really important,
especially in our current time.
But how I got here?
Well, it's sort of part familypart, my own madness.
My mother is Trinidadian.
She grew in canada before shemoved to england, which is why I
(02:27):
sound like this.
But I grew up in london, england, my mixed household, my
father's an irishman, mymother's canadian, but a strong
caribbean roots.
Of course, in england,especially in london, south
london, you can't avoid thestrong caribbean diaspora groups
there.
And through that and my owninterests, I sort of stumbled
with a 12-13 year old on storiesof Caribbean veterans.
(02:48):
So I started to prop up aroundyou know the Windrush
celebrations in England aroundRemembrance Day.
You know nothing about it and Istarted to follow and follow it
while continuing my studies indifferent areas and it just
became this thing that I had myacademic work on other things
and then I had all this stuff onCaribbean airmen and soldiers
(03:11):
and sailors in the second worldwar and at some point it just
became.
They just managed to match eachother and I managed to take my
love of the evolving identity ofthe Caribbean and history and
the second world war and putthem together, which is where I
am now, you know, as apostgraduate student of it in
England and I think with asecond world war and doing it
it's an 80 years since the endof the war.
We still live in the shadow ofit, we still have lessons to
(03:32):
learn from it and I thinkespecially Caribbean, the
Caribbean diaspora, should takepride in the role that they
played and if the lessons theydrew from it and I love telling
people about this- certainly,certainly I do want to get some
of the like time period and allthat stuff out of the way before
we really jump into talkingabout the Caribbean.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
So for our listeners, you know, tuning in World War I
, some people know it, as theGreat War started in 1914 and
lasted until 1918.
It was, course, sparked by aconglomeration of things, but
really the assassination ofArchduke Franz Ferdinand from
Austria, you know this quicklyescalated into a global conflict
(04:16):
due to the tangled web ofalliances, imperial ambitions,
militarism several things right,imperial ambitions, militarism,
several things right.
And then you know World War IIpicked off 1939 until 1945,
really massively triggered bythe expansion of Nazi Germany
under Hitler, as a lot of peopleknow.
(04:36):
And once again the world was,you know, really plunged into
the war due to, you know,creating alliances, etc.
But what is often missed,because you know, creating
alliances, et cetera, but whatis often missed because you know
, I think, especially from theUS side over here it's talked
about, you know, the alliedpowers and all of these things,
but what's often missed is thatyou know this wasn't just a
(04:57):
European war right, that's sortof sometimes how it's framed or
not even just European, butmaybe just like a global north
war rather.
I'd say, right it was.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
You know, it's really an imperial war yeah,
especially as an interestingshift that's happening in
especially a lot of Englishhistory now.
So we're getting better, Ithink, of acknowledging that
Britain fought both wars as animperial war.
In the first world war, britainfought as a war of imperial
pride.
You know whether you were anenglishman, an irishman, a
(05:28):
canadian, um, a south african,and then you know the.
It was sold to you.
As this is a war being foughtfor the empire and that's your
role in the empire fight andthat has effects on what happens
between the wars.
But the second world war,especially now, british writers
and even british popular cultureis being acknowledge that we
didn't fight that war alone,that everyone, the British, made
(05:50):
an effort to bring peopletogether to fight fascism and
that had complications in animperial power trying to fight
authoritarian evil while stillruling India, ruling the ruling
the third, the globe, but stillcommitting to a free world.
Afterwards that getscomplicated, we'll get to it.
(06:11):
But these are global wars, asyou say.
We consider them global northwars.
But even though all thefighting doesn't happen in the
global north, even all theeffects of it didn't happen in
the global north and you knowthe caribbean, especially in the
second world war, was't happenin the global North and you know
the Caribbean, especially inthe Second World War, was quite
close to the action.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
Definitely.
I think you know this idea thatyou know the Caribbean or South
Africa other places were justdistant territories is usually
how you know empires talkedabout, especially the British
Empire.
But that's certainly not thetruth, for you know what we
obviously know today, butespecially in this case, for um,
world war one and two, uh, theywere really crucial sources of
(06:49):
manpower, of resources, ofstrategic positioning, you know,
for things like naval bases.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
Um, you know the list goes on, I mean yeah, sugar
bananas, bauxite, we could oil.
One of my favorite anecdotes isum, you know the big like
national mist moment inengland's battle of britain?
You got, you know the?
A spitfire pilots fighting thegerman air force in the skies
over london.
All those planes are being uhflown with fuel refined in
(07:19):
trinidad because it can't comefrom anywhere else and it's the
safest way to get it, and it'salso by time the war starts.
The refineries in Trinidad havethe best engineers and the best
equipment to create the fuelthe air force needs, and they
know this.
So, if you're like, the battleof Britain has won many places
and one of them isPont-au-Pierre in Trinidad.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
So certainly, as we're just sort of, you know,
spitballing things, right, couldyou just share a little bit
more about this idea, as youwere sort of alluding to right
people fighting for the mothercountry, right, and these sort
of varied opinions of Caribbeanpeople just in terms of their
(07:58):
region's involvement?
Speaker 2 (08:01):
yeah, it's a broad, you know, god, I, people have
written papers and I'll try andbe quick about it because,
especially, it's a verydifferent conversation between
the first and second world war.
There is very much anoutpouring of popular support in
the first world war for themother country and for taking
part in the mother countrystruggle.
You know that you've previouslytalked with other people about
(08:21):
the um, the west india regiments, and there's so many people who
want to join up.
They have to create a differentunit for the new volunteers,
which is called the British WestIndia Regiment, and they end up
fighting in modern day Syriaright at the end of the war.
But they also have to do andthat's sort of a nice end, not
nice end, it's.
They are treated reallyhorribly.
(08:45):
The first of all, this is somejuxtaposition of people in the
Caribbean wanting to do theirpart for Britain and for their
locality and hoping that doingso will earn them something in
the future.
And because that doesn't happenby the Second World War,
there's this twist to it thereare lots of people who oppose
the war passively, not actively.
You're never seeing sort ofgeneral active resistance to it.
You to see a lot of.
Why should we take part in thewhite man's fight because we did
(09:07):
it 20 years ago and we gotnothing out of it except riots
and strikes and soldiers on thestreets.
But on the other hand, thereare a lot of people, especially
the younger generation who grewup between the wars, who are
looking at hitler.
They're looking at muslimi.
They're looking at what'shappened, especially in Hitler,
they're looking at Mussolini.
They're looking at what'shappened, especially in Ethiopia
, and they're not willing tostand by.
I think what's foreverinteresting to me is, you know,
(09:34):
there's this whole period wherethe European powers are
attempting to appease the Nazisand the fascists, to try and
push the war off, and on theother hand, in the Caribbean
there are anti-Italian riotsbecause people are so angry
about the Italian invasion ofEthiopia and there are thousands
of people petitioning theBritish government to let them
go and fight the Italians.
You look at a lot of the peoplewho fight in British uniform
(09:55):
later in the war.
They talk about theirradicalizing moment as being the
fall of Ethiopia and the exileof Haïs Elassie.
The fascists are coming for us.
This isn't a European's problemanymore and that motivation
sticks through.
There's a sort of understandingthat we can't sit this one out
either.
I think when the war starts andit looks like it's going to stay
(10:16):
in this, what they call thephony war period, where nobody's
really fighting that oh, thisis just a pointless white man's
war, nothing's going to happen.
But once the Nazis conquerFrance and start bombing Britain
and threatening trade andmovement around the world, this
is going to massively threatenour way of life too.
Because the gamble if you are alot of people who are trying to
(10:39):
remove British rule, introducedemocracy to the colonies, build
the Caribbean that sort of hasbeen imagined, you know, a
century since emancipation thegamble is that the view is well,
we don't like the British.
They're awful, they're happy totreat us badly, cut us out from
leadership, let us live inhorrible conditions, but we can
(11:00):
beat them.
Their system of governancecannot sustain this system.
They're treating us under.
At some point it'll crack,whereas the nazis will just kill
us.
There's a general realacknowledgement there's no way
to negotiate and outfox thenazis.
It will just be violence, andespecially amongst a lot of the
um trade union movements andradicals in places like jamaica.
(11:23):
A lot of these guys are thebritish chucking prison anyway.
The general view is we're goingto resist British rule and
we're going to try and seize theworks.
But we're never going to standin lockstep with, you know,
people who are sympathising withthe Nazis.
We're never going to go andstand in lockstep with the
French collaborators.
It's more of a we're going tostand up for ourselves.
You know, these guys aren'teven bothering to go and do work
(11:48):
with the American governmentbecause they don't trust the
American visa.
I mean, the volunteers knowexactly what they're fighting
for.
You know, in Britain, which isa conscript army, there's a lot
of people who aren't quite surewhat they're fighting for until
they can process it afterwards.
But a lot of the Caribbeanvolunteers are very aware.
There's a story from a Jamaicancalled Dudley Thompson and his
anecdote was he was in a dentistoffice in Kingston and he was
(12:10):
trying to avoid thinking aboutthe surgeries.
He picks up a magazine in frontof him which has an excerpt
from Mein Kampf and he's soupset and angry about what he
reads in Mein Kampf that heimmediately forgets what his
plan is to become a teacher.
It's like I'm going to join theRoyal Air Force.
That's all I've got to do now.
I've got to stop it, supposedlywhen he goes to the recruiting
officer because I like to joinup.
He does all the forms.
The officer goes.
Are you sure you understand?
(12:31):
Because he can't believe thatsome middle-class Black Jamaican
teacher would do this.
And Dudley goes.
Well, of course I do.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
I think that foregrounds and probably even
more so complicates this historyin a lot of ways.
Right, because, as we've talkedabout in the previous episodes,
the experiences of soldiersupon joining, you know, whether
it's the West Indy Regiment orduring, you know, the War of
1812, they weren't great, andthat's me sort of being nice,
(13:11):
right being very nice.
And so, in terms of therecruitment of soldiers and
everything I even you know I'llput it up for our listeners to
check out on the Strictly Factsyllabus, but I even came across
I believe it was either Bahamasor Barbados like a flyer, in
terms of you trying to recruitsoldiers for the, the British
(13:34):
armies, and so you know, couldyou just share about, you know,
ultimately, the experiences ofthese soldiers upon joining
because, as I said, right, theyweren't the nicest and it's very
different depending on the warand the branch.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
I mean the experience in the first of war.
The huge number of volunteersis bad.
You know these guys are signingup with the expectation they're
going to play their part forking and country.
They're going to fight on thefront, they're going to do, in
the very contorted,hyper-masculinity of the 20th
century, proper soldier's work.
You know they think they'regoing to win the glory and they
(14:09):
go through all this brutaltraining that's dehumanising
enough before you deal withracism.
And they arrive in the WesternFront or in Italy or in Egypt
and they discover they're beingused as labourers.
They're being used to digtrenches, dig latrines, move
cargo.
The fury itself.
It really cripples therelationship between the
(14:31):
colonial power and the populacebecause they've sent their young
men to fight and gain glory andthey're not Gaining glory at a
First World War is a little starnext to that, because that's
largely a lot of young men dying.
But it was important at thetime for these people that they
played their part and it becomesa real roost at the end of the
war when there's one unit of theBritish West India Regiment
(14:53):
that's being held as a finallabour unit in Italy as a mutiny
, because they're like we're fedup, we want to go home.
You've told us we can keepgoing home.
White officers andnon-commissioned officers are
abusing us.
We get slurs yelled at us byother soldiers, slurs yelled at
us by other soldiers.
(15:15):
Insanely, when one unit of theWestern Red Ribbon marches
through Alexandria in 1917, theycome through the streets
singing Rule Britannia and theyget jeered by white soldiers for
doing it.
But in their view they haveevery right to because they're
British subjects.
You probably had otherhistorians talk about the
encounter of race.
When you leave the CaribbeanSuddenly you become black in a
way that you aren't in thecolonial space.
And other historians talk aboutthe encounter of race.
When you leave the Caribbean,suddenly you become black in a
way that you aren't in thecolonial space and that's really
(15:39):
alienating for a lot of thesoldiers.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
So you know, Zabitulis.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
Then there are riots when they come back in 1919 and
that kind of this day festersall the way to the Second World
War.
The thing that's different inthe Second World War is they
don't raise a West Indiaregiment until quite late on,
and that's because of what theBritish government is very weird
about.
So the administration doesn'twant to raise a new West Indian
(16:04):
unit for ground fighting and thesort of argument is one, we
don't really know where to useit.
Two, the population is veryuneasy about with us.
They don't like us.
At the moment there's been fiveyears of labour disturbances
the euphemism goes forrebellions and riots and strikes
, and they don't want that yearto cause trouble.
(16:26):
And there's also from thelessons of the First World War.
They do all the numbers inabout 1940-41.
They reckon they could raiseabout three battalions, so about
3,000 men.
All you need is one bad battleand you'd lose 1,000 men.
And there's a real concernabout what would happen if the
news comes back that one of theCaribbean battalions has been
(16:49):
wiped out in a battle in Italyor somewhere.
But it's still pushed back.
So there's a huge protest intrinidad in july 1940 about
wanting to serve as another one,jamaica.
The biggest supporter ingovernment of a west indian
fighter unit is winstonchurchill.
He thinks it's a great idea.
(17:09):
One of these, these veryChurchill.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
I have no idea what it is.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
I guess I don't know, but he's like I really want a
West Indian brigade and he'slike we should send them and
make them a garrison atSingapore.
And he says this in October1941, which is like, oh, that's
nice.
He wants to get them, you know,defend one of Britain's major
naval bases.
But, as some people might know,if they had done that, the
(17:35):
entire brigade would have thenbeen captured by the Japanese
about three months later.
And if we learned anything fromhow the Japanese treat West
African prisoners a few yearslater, it would have ended
really, really badly foreveryone involved.
So this is weird to swing aroundabout, but those who do end up
in service in the Second WorldWar have a very it's a very
similar experience and adifferent one depending on your
(17:57):
branch.
So when the eventual West IndianCaribbean regiment is formed
because they give it a differentname for reasons beyond me,
they basically are used as afetch and carry labour regiment
again by the end of the war.
And that comes down to I, Ithink real anxiety about what
happens if that unit takes heavycasualties, because by the time
(18:18):
they fight in 1943 they're sentout to the middle east in 43,
44.
There's already been instance,with the new zealanders, who you
know are white colonialsoldiers, being withdrawn from
british forces because they'vetaken too many casualties, and
that government is that we can'tface more casualties at home.
(18:39):
It's going to cause too muchdamage to our society and that
the allies but the Americans andthe British and the colonial
British imperial forces aretrying for the second world war
in a way that doesn't involvehaving a lot of young men in
trenches.
The view is that if you havethis Caribbean regiment and they
can do labour work, and thatlabour work means that other men
(18:59):
don't have to go fight as hard,that's fine.
But it still builds this burdenof resentment amongst the
servicemen because they thoughtthey were going to be able to do
something important, and movingboxes in the warehouse might be
important to a bureaucrat andit might be important to a
historian.
80 years later it feels likereal shit at the time.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
Apologies, I shouldn't swear no, but it's
true, and I think you know justto even underscore the numbers,
right, so it's over 15 000caribbean men, um, joining for
World War I and about 6,000 forWorld War II.
Right, and as you were sort ofalluding to by World War II,
things are a lot morecomplicated, especially on the
(19:40):
ground in the Caribbean.
We obviously have the like1930s and 40s labor unrest, as
you also noted, you know, riseof fascism, also, of course,
increased nationalist sentiment.
We can't underscore.
You know how that is obviouslyevolving as well, right, and so
the resistance, of course, isunfolding both at home, you know
(20:04):
, people being sort of by WorldWar II deciding, you know, a
little bit more complicated interms of our involvement.
But what is, as you're sort ofalluding to, some of the
official stances or theconflicts that you know Black
and mixed race people werefacing upon joining the military
(20:24):
, beyond this sort of impetus ofhow they were treating Black
soldiers.
I've just heard several littlecomplicated stories of you know
people like you refer to.
You know teachers joining andother other instances like that
they're sort of multi-layered.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
So I think the one thing is not as black and white
as say, when we talk about blackgis.
Where you have a militarysystem built on, you know
somebody wants to further itcorrectly.
You know it's a parasite in howAmerica fights this war.
Segregation Completely.
They have one of the mostefficient military industrial
(21:03):
complexes ever created in theSecond World War In the middle
of it.
Segregation just completelyscrews it up.
Doesn't happen in the BritishArmy in the same way, especially
the Royal Air Force.
British government has a whatone might call a shadow colour
bar, in the sense that it is onthe rule the books that you
cannot become an officer if youare not of European descent.
(21:25):
Nobody defines what Europeandescent is.
It's very notorious during theFirst World War that British
army has a lot of mixed raceofficers.
We're usually the children ofcolonial bureaucrats and local
women who come back to england,have a british education and
they go to the recruitmentoffice in the first world war
and the recruiting officer sayssomething like are you a pure
(21:47):
european descent?
And either you go yes, and therecruiting officer looks at you,
who goes yeah, right, whatever.
Or you go no and the recruitingofficer looks at you, who goes
yeah, right, whatever.
Or you go no and the recruitingofficer looks at you and goes
walk around the building andcome back and tell me what you
are.
You are then because they don'tcare.
But by the second world warthey're very strict on this and
the interesting thing is thateverybody's very anxious in all
(22:08):
the documents before the war tomake sure nobody knows the rule
exists.
And it's this funny thingthat's absurd to us in the 21st
century that the British Empireis really insistent on the
statute that the official policyis.
There is no racialdiscrimination in the British
Empire.
It's ridiculous.
But all these colonialofficials, all these colonial
(22:29):
office officials.
No one can admit that we do anyof this stuff officially.
So we all know that you'renever going to get a black
foreman in this governmentoffice but you can't admit that
Completely opposite end of theview from the American system.
And it's interesting what theydo to let it through.
I mean, before the war I founddoing solutions the great letter
from a British MP by the nameof Stafford Cripps who ends up
(22:53):
being in the first socialistgovernment after the war and
he's writing to the air ministryto go.
I've got a letter from aconstituent telling me about a
student of his who's mixed racewho was rejected from the royal
air force because of his color.
And the member of parliamentgoes.
But I was told you don't have acolor bar and all the internal
records go.
Okay, we absolutely didn't lethim in the RAF because he's not
(23:14):
white.
But if we admit this inParliament we'll be in trouble.
So we'll just let this oneslide.
And there's another incidentabout six months later where a
Jamaican man goes to London tosign up for the RAF and he's a
very well-credited flightengineer.
He's got all the records andit's only when he walks in for
the interview that the interviewpanel discover he's um black,
(23:37):
he's come all the way fromjamaica on government expense to
do this interview, to be in theroyal air force, and they're
like, well, he's come this far.
We can't tell him no withoutadmitting that it's just a color
issue.
So it's this very odd thingwhere there's a policy that
everyone's kind of aware of,nobody wants to admit it exists,
and it all comes to a head atthe beginning of the war because
(23:59):
the children of a famous blackJamaican civil rights activist,
dr Harold Moody, attempt to jointhe British Army and they're
both turned away and they'reboth privately educated, upper
middle class public school boys.
Apart from their parentsorigins, they're as english as
you can possibly imagine anenglish officer to be.
(24:21):
So when this all comes in frontof the press, the government
doesn't have a leg to standbecause they can't argue, these
guys.
They aren't qualified, theycan't argue, they're unwilling,
they can't argue, they'reforeign nationals.
So the government justbasically goes we're going to
drop the color bar for theduration of hostilities, which
is a code, for we're doing thisbecause there's a war on.
We can do a lot of thingsbecause there's a war on but it
(24:42):
never quite drops.
So it means that by the timeyou have a lot of the West
Indian volunteer servicemenarrive, people like Errol Barrow
, orrick Cross, michael Manley,and when they go through officer
school and pass through becauseof Britain's class system, once
they've got their officer tabsthe prejudice from whatever
prejudice exists drops awaybecause they're officers.
(25:05):
In a certain sense they'reprotected by their military
status in military life.
In a way they aren't civilianlife.
And there's this um billystrachan has a great line about
the sort of complicated natureof it where he says when one
black man walks in he's a friend.
When two walk in they're warybut they can cope and it's
straight when the difficultieshappen.
(25:26):
Strachan was um a force ofnature.
He'd um decided to join the rfin March 1940, sold his
treasured bicycle and saxophoneto pay for his boat ticket to
Liverpool, got off of Liverpool,went to London, walked up to
the Air Ministry and went I'dlike to join the Royal Air Force
.
And the sergeant on the doorwent you're not joining the
(25:47):
Royal Air Force, f*** off.
And he has this row with thesergeant at the door until an
officer posts his head out andgoes oh, are you trying to join
up.
No, you have to go around thecorner for that.
And he goes around the cornerand the guy around the corner at
the recruitment officer goes oh, fantastic, great, just
slamming the door to life,because there's just so much
weird circumstantialism to it.
(26:13):
It's not like Britain isn't aracist country.
It's not like all these, allthe recollections talk about
being stared at in the streetand girls and dancers groping
them, looking for their tailsand really awful stories like
that.
But especially in Britain it'sa different experience to what
they're the generation beforehadn't experienced in Italy and
the Mesopotamia.
Number one, they're not in acompletely military space and
two, theain of the second worldwar is an international island.
(26:33):
It's still as frenchman, poles,czechs, indians, um, south
africans, americans of all types.
So the country is just kind ofaccepting that.
It's a full of different peopleand in many senses you, you
walk in, you're in a brituniform.
That puts more people at easethan anything else.
But everybody has a very oddexperience and it depends as
(26:56):
well on where you are.
So if you're in the RAS, royalAir Force at the time, it is
essentially the hotshot, modern,high-tech, futuristic branch of
the service.
It's difficult to comprehend tous because you know you see
pictures of the aircraft theyfly.
They look so antiquated but youknow these are the most
advanced machines in the worldand the people running this are
(27:19):
trying to run the most advancedorganization in the world and
they've got the most for lack ofa better word.
The smartest people in thecountry are largely involved in
the Royal Air Force.
In the Royal Air Force it is acomment that many I think Cy
Grant, who was shot down in theRoyal Air Force in the
Netherlands and then ends up inprison camp, makes that being in
(27:39):
prison with all his RAFcomrades felt like being at
university, because you'resurrounded by all the smartest
people you've ever met sittingaround waiting for something to
happen.
But it's different for the guyswho were in the Honduran
Forestry Corps.
Who were in the honduranforestry corps who were brought
in to replace war workers inscotland, have a very different
experience of the war becausethey are basically about 1200 of
(28:02):
them were dumped in scottishcommunities to conduct forestry
labor and some of them havereally good experiences.
I wildly, about five years ago,the month before COVID kicked
off, I was in a hospital inEdinburgh and I met two old
they'd be aunties in Jamaica,but they had the thickest
Scottish accents I wasn't quitesure what the correct word would
(28:23):
be, but they were lovelybecause their father had been
one of these Honduran forestworkers and he'd met a local
girl and he'd asked when theywere leaving.
He'd asked her father to marryher and the father had said come
back tomorrow and I'll say yes,knowing they were leaving that
night, and he jumped out of thevan as they left in the bush
(28:46):
till the morning and knocked onthe door and go well, here I am,
well, it worked.
So there's these different.
Yeah, there are a surprisingnumber of West Indians come
across just to work in thefactories and in the coal mines
in the Midlands and you knowthen you can't even count the
number of merchants seeming.
They didn't keep those records.
But it's the different.
Experiences really vary.
(29:07):
I don't think any servicemenhave the same experience of
prejudice.
There are a lot of similarities.
I think every record I've saideverybody's just horrified about
how grey and cold England is,which is a universality.
It's grey and cold today.
I can see it outside.
But I think what's interestingas well about these experiences
(29:28):
is a lot of these people arenever quite sure where they
stand with the British Peopleget lots of flack in the British
.
There's a lot of anxiety in theBritish about sexual patriotism
, about British women walkingout with non-white British men.
A lot of that drops awaywhenever the Americans have a go
at West Indian or Africanservicemen.
(29:50):
People in Britain don't likethat.
There's a lot of stories offamously in America.
There's a story of the Battleof Bamberg Bridge where British
civilians stand up for Americanservicemen.
But there's lots of anecdotesof West Indian servicemen being
stood up for by British soldiers, their superiors, civilians.
(30:11):
There's a great anecdote I knowthere was a shared air base and
there was a Jamaican as part ofone of the flight crews and
when some Americans come intothe mess hall they start
berating him and trying to gethim to leave and one of the
volunteer women, a headmistressfrom a local school manning the
mess counter, walks over andslaps the lead American across
(30:32):
the face and tells him to getout and they just leave and
apparently everyone wascompletely shocked that she'd
done it.
No one expected it.
But that's the sort oftreatment you have.
And I think Baron Baker, who wasa Jamaican pilot no, he was an
air crew asked to speak for theBlack British personnel on his
(30:53):
base to an American colonel andhe was very frank.
Which is?
He went.
We are King George VI's sixthsoldiers, not roosevelt's little
black boys.
We are not foreigners, we arebritish subjects and this is a
mother country and you, as ayankee foreigner, aren't beating
us one inch from where we are.
And he said that to a superiorofficer with, and was backed by,
his own superior.
(31:13):
So it sort of tells you aboutthe weird nuances of
relationship.
It's not that it was alwaysthat they weren't always stood
up, for there were multipleriots in London between white
American servicemen and blackAmerican servicemen and black
British servicemen.
Orrick Cross and Billy Strachanhave most often referred to the
American GIs as their littlebrothers in those fights, in
(31:36):
that they'd always end up comingin to protect them from other
people because they knew how toplay the rules.
Speaker 1 (31:41):
I think especially I mean growing up in America we
obviously don't get this side ofthe story at all Right.
But I think one thing aboutwhen it comes to military
histories, there are alwaysspecific soldiers you know whose
names are sort of heraldedRight, and I've virtually got
none of that in my education.
(32:01):
But I think there are someoutstanding people who you know,
especially later on forCaribbean history become, you
know, monuments of nationalismand things like that.
I mean you mentioned ErrolBarrow first.
You know prime minister ofBarbados and so and so for you,
who are some of those standoutindividuals who really
(32:24):
contributed to either World WarI or World War II?
Speaker 2 (32:27):
I'll start with Barrow, because he's always
fascinating that he was going tobe a teacher too.
He signs up as a navigator inthe Second Barbadian Contingent
with his brother and he fightsthrough the whole war and
post-war.
He ends up as chief navigatorto a man called Air Vice-Marshal
(32:48):
Sholto Douglas, who had been areally important planner and
organiser during the war, andthey have such a close
relationship that Arrow Barrowis Sholouglas's son's godfather.
There's a very interestingrelationship.
That barrow flew 48 missions umin tactical bombers between
september 1944 and may 45, sothat over the space of about um
(33:15):
eight months, nine months, whichis a lot.
Most pilots were withdrawnafter about 20, 30 because of
the exhaustion rates and therisk and he didn't find the most
.
We have to talk about Oret Cross, of course, who was one of the
founding fathers in many senses,not just of Trinidad but a
really important jurist andlawyer across the post-Soviet
(33:35):
Caribbean.
Personal relationships withNkrumah, nyerere, governments of
Canada across the post-warCaribbean.
Personal relationships with thecrewmen, the government of.
You know it's incredible whathe did, but he was also an
unbelievably brave man.
He flew 80 missions with a unitknown as Pathfinders.
The Pathfinders' job was to goin before the bombers to mark
(33:57):
the targets in the completenight and they were reliant
completely on the navigationbeing completely accurate and
cross with a navigator.
And he was so good that a lotof the pilots in his squadron
would do what they could to makesure he flew with them.
And he flew 40 missions.
And they asked him do you wantto fly another 20?
And he went yes, and I can'toff the top of me remember the
(34:18):
chest full of medals he has.
But it's incredible, he's oneof these in many senses the
public face of the caribbean war.
After he's involved in all thepropaganda work that's done with
the bbc um.
After the war he's involved inthe colonial office's attempt to
repatriate the huge numbers ofafrican and west indian
settlements across the world.
I think the one thing we forgetthe war ends on the 8th of May
(34:40):
1945.
It takes until 1947, 1948 foreveryone to get home, and that's
just soldiers, huge refugeecrisis everywhere you can
imagine.
But he's involved in the effortto get all those people home.
I thought it was an interestingone because if you go on YouTube
there's a great two-partlecture he gave for the
Trinidadian Military College andyou know he's um, he's in his
(35:02):
mid-80s and he talks and hisarcane is a little bit like a
cartoon british pilot from the40s.
He talks this way he's verydead, paddy, very dry, and he
can sort of see.
He just even at that age oozesabsolute charisma and I really
recommend the listeners try andsearch out and try and watch it
because I could tell you it, youcan hear it from his own words
(35:23):
and I think you know.
And then sort of you've gotpeople like Owen Sylvester, who
had a much harder time thanCross.
He's not as well connected,cross and Ivanka.
Knowing Louis Constantine butyou know, knowing the most
famous athlete of your countryhelps.
But Sylvester is interesting.
Sylvester, if you had oneexample of the kind of prejudice
you could face, sylvester facedit and went past it.
(35:43):
Um, the infamous story of hebecame a warrant officer of a
bomber crew.
That and the bomber crew reallyliked him.
It was interesting.
Half his crew was white southafricans and at the time they
got on really well with him.
There's an infamous story hegot a new commanding officer and
the commanding officer wasgoing down the line of crews and
(36:06):
they get to um sylvester's crewand he goes and talks with
south african navigator and says, oh, you must be the crew
captain and the navigatoranswers the negative and says
it's warrant officer sylvester.
The ceo looked unhappy and thenturned to his aid later and went
.
I know how to deal with thesepeople, I have experience with
them in india and there's thisconstant then battle.
(36:28):
I've seen the records that'sreally grim, where the ceo is
just trying to trip sylvester upand get him out the unit and
prove him wrong and essentiallyeventually he catches him and
it's a dispute over uniform.
Sylvester turns up in the wronguniform to an event and it's
clearly not Sylvester's faultand he's clearly still angry
about it.
(36:48):
40, 50, 60 years later he'sinterviewed, especially
considering the amount of combathe'd seen, and there's one guy
screwing him over, but also thatone officer screwing him over
then ends up being justified toprevent promotions amongst other
West Indians in the next twoyears.
It's mad.
There's a site called CaribbeanM and it's a great digital
(37:11):
archive and I cannot recommendit more in terms of these
personal stories because it'sgot all the photographs and it's
got all these recollections andit'll tell you that I can't
remember if my head and my notes, all my notes, are sort of
linked to it, because I can'trecommend it enough and I don't
want to credit work, take workthat isn't mine, except to say
that people should go and readit.
I think a story that touched mefrom there and I always think
(37:34):
of is there was a pilot calledVictor Tucker who was a Jamaican
.
He'd come to England before thewar to study at Oxford.
He may have a stock program inthe city of London.
He signs up for the Royal AirForce during the Battle of
Britain and he's incrediblypopular with his unit and he
does very well.
And I think it's the 5th of May1942, they go up to do what they
(37:55):
call the sweep, which is whenthey would go with bombers over
to france to hit a target, totry and goad the german air
force into a fight, to try anddegrade their strengths.
And they go on a morning sweepand he comes down and he's
promoted.
On these.
He's done well enough and thensquadron commander promotes him
provisionally promoted from anon-commissioned officer to an
(38:15):
officer.
And they go up in the afternoonand he's shot down and his
parents find out that he's diedthe same day.
They find out the promotioncomes through.
And it's really tragic.
But it tells you what the kindof sacrifice level was.
I think amongst the Caribbeanvolunteers we're looking at a
50% cash-to-rate of people whowent out and didn't come back
(38:39):
across all the islands.
There's not a lot of people butin terms of the scale that's
punching above the rain.
An average cash rate in bomband command is about 30.
So amongst even the deadliestunit in the royal air force
they're doing, they're punchingabout the way in terms of the
sacrifice.
It's a shame because there is anawareness of it, of that
sacrifice.
It's resurfacing now and youcan sort of know why.
(39:01):
It's not in the anti-colonialperiod.
Now a lot of these guys, theseservicemen, these decorated
soldiers, come home and after1948-49 put the uniform in the
drawer because they've got amore important job.
You know they are nowcommitting to the independent
struggle and for some of them itmeans that uniform has to stay
(39:22):
above the drawer, the medalshave to go to the back of the
cupboard, because something elsemore important is, you know,
errol Barrow manages to balanceit.
I mean, there's famously thepictures of him on Independence
Day in Barbados.
He's wearing his RAF dress.
Blues Him and actually both ofthem, michael Manley, are always
wearing RAF regimental ties, soit's clearly important.
But others put it aside untilreasonably recently and I think
(39:46):
that's just an odd legacy ofit's not an odd legacy, I think
it's an expected legacy of theanti-colonial struggle.
But a lot of these people Idon't think would have taken up
the mantle of resistance they doin the late 40s and 50s if they
hadn't served, because whenyou've been shot at over Germany
(40:07):
at 20,000 feet in the middle ofthe night the British aren't
very scary anymore.
I think it's the same.
You know, in America you havethe constant double victory in
how you lead.
From the return of the GIAustralian civil rights movement
I think you can see thatparallel in the Caribbean and
microcosm in a very Caribbeanway.
You know it's not as grand butit's very Caribbean.
(40:29):
There's a lot of smallcommittees and people in front
rooms figuring out how they wantto do it and you know a lot of
accusatory letters and peoplewho grudges kind of go back to
when they were at schooltogether but they're still going
to put it aside for the nextfive years and come back to it
when they were independent youbring up, you know just, the
tremendous loss of caribbeansoldiers and I, just off the top
(40:50):
of my head, think of the manymonuments that are back home,
sort of in tribute to the lossof all these airmen.
Speaker 1 (40:59):
You know, workers, etc.
Um, you know, for Jamaica,there, of course, is a monument
in National Heroes Park right.
Um, for Trinidad, there isMemorial Park.
I also think of schools.
If you go to several highschools across Jamaica, whether
it's Wilmer's, whether it's JC,you know, and of course I'm sure
the list goes on.
(41:20):
And even within parishes,there's, I think, also one in
Clocktower Plaza in Clarendon,if I'm not mistaken.
There are so many tributes tothe loss of, and you know, just
to really uphold the memory ofthese servicemen who were lost
throughout the wars.
And so, I guess, paralleling or, you know, as a sort of
(41:40):
continuation of that, what aresome of the ways that you find,
you know, we're reallymemorializing and upholding the
memory of these servicemen incontemporary, you know,
caribbean popular culture andBritish popular culture as well,
british, popular culture aswell.
Speaker 2 (41:57):
I can't speak to the Caribbean side being, you know
diaspora, but I think you'reright.
I do remember from summers inTrinidad and Memorial Park is
just, it is important.
I think what always surpriseswith me when I talk to British
audiences is they aren't awarewhether even the black black
British audiences this is a newthing in a way that it isn't to
(42:18):
that to people in the Caribbean.
When my mother goes home andtalks about what I do to her
relatives, they know whatthey're talking about, they know
who these people are.
I think in Britain it'simportant.
This commemoration is becomingmuch more prominent now and much
more important as the firstWindrush generation moves into
sort of that period ofhistorical memory.
Because the Windrush generationmoves into sort of that period
(42:39):
of that historical memorybecause the Windrush generation
is a war generation.
You know, if you look at theEmpire Windrush itself, a good
quarter of people aboard it wereex-servicemen.
There's a very famousphotograph of the stern of the
Windrush coming into London.
You can see the crowd cheering.
A good half of the men in thatcrowd are in RAF uniforms.
They're in a very distinctiveRAF jacket.
(43:00):
They're all wearing them stilland that's really an important
legacy that people sort of havelost and I think needs to be
regained is that the Britainthat the Windrush generation
were part of, that theycontributed to, was as marked a
product of the war as thecountry they came to.
The Caribbean had its ownexperiences of rationing, of
(43:23):
threats to German attack, oftrying to think about a new
world.
You know, one of the thingsthat everyone is surprised at is
, in the middle of the war,jamaica has a massive
constitutional battle and itsfirst elections.
In the middle of the war,there's a commitment with the
British government and theanti-Globalist system that we're
not going to stop.
In the middle of the world.
There's a commitment with theBritish government and the
anti-global system that we'renot going to stop doing this
because of the war.
It's got to happen.
(43:43):
We have to do this and you know, if you read the propaganda of
the time both the Britishgovernment trying to defend
their constitution and theradical, the Jamaican Labour
Party movement, trying to pushfor it is we're fighting this
war so we can have this scuffleover democracy.
So we shouldn't stop and Ithink that's a legacy.
(44:04):
You know, windrush is possiblebecause fascism is defeated, the
idea that you can have amulticultural britain through
all the struggles that it thathas led to to this day.
That is a thing that can onlyhappen because everybody
contributed to the defeat offascism.
That's a lot of what I come downin terms of why the
(44:24):
commemoration happens isimportant.
I think we are, you know, as ageneration really seriously
slips away.
We had a couple of funerals inthe last couple of years of
Windrush-era immigrants who hadbeen RAF veterans and it really
struck certain parts of thecommunity that these people
weren't really finally going.
But that commemoration becomesmore important and it's left the
(44:48):
community now and hit a lot ofthe national institutions.
You know, the RAF Museum, whichis the official military museum
of the Air Force, has veryserious commemoration around
Black veterans, which every yearI think they get a bit better
at improving on.
They've got a wide base oftalks and I think the literature
here is getting a lot better.
You're more likely to pick itup in the schools, I think, than
(45:10):
you used to be, but there'salways a way to go on this.
But I think to me being able toplace the caribbean diaspora's
role in, you know, fightingfascism, defeating fascism, is
important, especially in ourcurrent crisis.
Speaker 1 (45:25):
I did have one.
I also wanted to add um, justbecause I think you know, when
we talk about war, we usuallytalk about men.
That's a gendered conversationthat we'll get into for another
time.
Um, for for sake of time here,but, um, I think dahlia bean's
book jamaican women and theworld wars on the front lines of
change, I think is one that I Idefinitely wanted to shout out
(45:49):
in our conversation today, justbecause there isn't as much you
know, out there, um sort offormally and accessibly really,
um, just in terms ofunderscoring women's roles in
the world horrendously under isasherrod.
Speaker 2 (46:01):
I know a few people working on it and there's some
wonderful oral histories thatare exist and I, you know, I
look forward.
Yeah, there are people doinganalysis now.
There's bits being done.
I look forward to thecontinuing analysis of women.
You know I I feel bad that it'sonly taking this, taking me
this long to talk about unamarson, who you know not only
(46:22):
big ones and from my parish, ifI may add.
But you know, continue, sorrybut you know, not only you know,
uh, you know the linchpin of,you know, transatlantic
pan-africanism, you know thelink between the garvis and the,
but you know also the linchpinof bringing the war to the
Caribbean, in terms of both WestIndies calling, as this BBC
(46:46):
imperative to get West Indianservicemen to speak to home, but
also in terms of supportingCaribbean voices in England,
bringing the radicals into workwith BBC, introducing them to
the wider literary sphere andconnecting.
You know I can't think of.
You know I'm really lookingforward in my PhD to writing
(47:07):
about Una Marsden because she'sjust absolutely brilliant and I
feel quite bad about it becauseI was like it was in my notes.
It was a big Una Marsden inblock capital.
I just sort of went off on astream because she's brilliant
in block capital and it sort ofwent off on a stream because
she's brilliant and you gothrough the archives and looking
at the work done by people likecarol moody, george padmore,
rid of dumba, and she's alwaysthere.
(47:27):
She's always writing theletters, correcting things,
getting annoyed with peopletalking over her when she knows
better.
You know, knowing exactly whenwhatever white british radical
they're talking to is going toscrew them over.
And also having to tolerateHallie Selassie who by any
standard seems to have been areal asshole.
And if we're talking about aplace for you really to go, I
(47:49):
can't recommend Water and Josh.
More by Stephen Bourne.
I can recommend absolutelyeverything Stephen Bourne's
written in terms of thinkingabout Britain and Black Britain
at war.
He's a great writer, veryintelligent writer, got right
into detail, really dug througharchives and oral history
projects to be able to collatethese brilliant collection of
(48:10):
accounts.
I'll make sure that there's alink in your syllabus to his
work.
It's all brilliant.
He's a lovely guy as well.
Speaker 1 (48:19):
Definitely, definitely, definitely.
Yes, of course, I will add allof these links um to the YouTube
, um, you know that you youreferenced earlier at the
YouTube video um, and all ofthese books and things that
we're sharing, because, again, Ithink it's um, for me at least,
the 20th century is sointeresting, in particular
(48:39):
because it's so close and yetsometimes feels so far away or
so unknown um, and so you knowany way that we can uplift these
stories and, as you're sayingright, some of these people, um,
you know, while that generationis certainly aging and have
maybe passed on right, theirstories certainly are part of
who we are and our enduringlegacies.
(49:00):
My final question, of course,was going to be on Windrush and
the sort of subsequent influenceof, you know, the Caribbean in
England after the World War.
So any final words?
Speaker 2 (49:13):
Well, as I said, that Windrush generation is in many
senses the Caribbean greatestgeneration, especially that
first instance.
But the influence is in manysenses, the Caribbean greatest
generation, especially thatfirst instance.
But the influence is anotherway.
You know I mentioned earlier umCy Grant who'd been a bomber
pilot veteran.
He's one of the people whohelped bring Calypso to England.
A lot of the Calypso artistswho come to England iteration
(49:34):
had and are written lots of wellflack words, anti-nazi songs
and anti-fascist songs in the30s and 40s.
So that legacy comes through.
And there's a few people I knowat the moment who are doing a
lot of new and interesting workon looking at how Second World
War veterans and organisationsplayed a big role in the
development of the Caribbeancommunities in England and
(49:55):
keeping links back to thehomeland, especially in the
run-up to the attempt atfederation.
This is a lot of work to be done.
I think as academics we're onlystarting to grasp the long
legacy of that war generationthe Caribbean on Britain and
connect Britain's story properlywith the Caribbean story.
(50:19):
And you know, I think we beingable to look back and connect
them is really important becauseBritain is beginning to come to
terms with its imperial legacyproperly and with its
post-imperial legacy and seeitself as part of a web of very
messy web of internationalcommunities.
Being able to look back and gothe war is important to Britain,
(50:39):
it's important to people whocame to Britain.
We should be able, we canconnect those beyond the
windrush moment.
I think is something I'mexcited about.
And also, who like, who doesn'tlike punching nazis.
Everyone should be able to seethemselves in history and in
popular culture punching a nazi,no matter where they're from or
who they are.
That's a good place to be.
(51:00):
If you're upset about that,maybe you're the one being
punched.
Speaker 1 (51:03):
Right, certainly a story that I think we should all
know just generally, but Ithink especially for the times
we're in now.
Right, but, john, I mean againcan't thank you enough.
You have crossed one of mymajor bucket list podcast items
off my list today.
So I really appreciate yousharing your knowledge and
(51:24):
expertise on the Second WorldWar with us For all my students
joining the podcast who havebeen guests and have shared
their research and buddingresearch.
Really grateful because I knowwe're all in the trenches trying
to finish, but I wish you thebest of luck starting grad
school this fall.
Speaker 2 (51:41):
Thank, you, thank you very much.
Speaker 1 (51:43):
Yes, of course, and you know, for our listeners
tuning in.
I promised you these links, sothey will be up there on the
website.
So go to strictlyfactspodcom.
I've got one final thing foryour listeners to recommend?
Oh yes, of course.
Speaker 2 (51:56):
When the Athletic Atlantic spreads to the western
side they have to cancel all thecarnivals because the lights
they have to put the black eyein.
And this is a song for the lastperformed I believe it was
performed for the first time onthe last night of the last
Trinidad carnival.
The war ends and it's justcalled Adolf Hitler by Destroyer
(52:16):
and it's brilliant and I won'tattempt to sing it but I will
send you it so you can put it inthe show notes and I recommend
all you listeners listen to itbecause it is that proper dry
old star calypso humor appliedto you know, defeating Nazis,
and I think that's great.
there's a fair few, actually, ofthose anti-Nazi.
There's a great Lord Beginner,run your, run Hitler, one from
(52:37):
1940.
But I thought I'd finish, yeah,finish with a good song we love
it and I appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (52:43):
I'm always, you know, as a lover of music, um, so you
know I will definitely beadding those links to the
website.
So again, listeners, be sure tocheck out strictlyfaxpodcom for
more links to learn more about.
You know the tremendous I can'tunderscore enough tremendous
influence and impact of thecarib, world War I and World War
II and thereafter.
(53:03):
And so till next time, look formore.
Thanks for tuning in toStrictly Facts.
Visit strictlyfactspodcastcomfor more information from each
episode.
Follow us at Strictly Facts Podon Instagram and Facebook and
at Strictly Facts Pod onInstagram and Facebook and at
Strictly Facts PD on Twitter.
Welcome to Strictly Facts, a guide to Caribbean
history and culture hosted by me, alexandria Miller.
Strictly Facts teaches thehistory, politics and activism
of the Caribbean and connectsthese themes to contemporary
music and popular culture.
Hello, hello everyone, wagwan,and welcome back to another
(00:22):
episode of Strictly Facts, aguide to Caribbean history and
culture, where we dive deep intothe histories, struggles and
resistance that have shapedCaribbean people at home and
abroad.
I'm your host, alexandra Miller, and today we are continuing to
explore Caribbean militaryhistories, this time getting
into the powerful yet oftenoverlooked chapter of global
(00:43):
history how the Caribbeancontributed to and was impacted
by the world wars.
Now, when most people think ofWorld War I and II, you know
things like Normandy and youknow European trenches and all
of these things sort of come tomind, or at least that's what I
was sort of taught about.
However, we cannot overlookthese important contributions of
(01:06):
the rest of the British Empire,so that's including the
Caribbean, of course, but India,many parts of the continent of
Africa, right, they were alldeeply entangled in this
conflict across.
You know the first half of the20th century, and so we'll look
at today.
You know the soldiers century,and so we'll look at today.
(01:27):
You know the soldiers, theworkers, the economy, the
ideologies that emerged fromthis period, and we'll connect
the dots between the globalconflict and the local
transformation.
But before we get too much intothat, I am really grateful to
have John Conka join us for ourdiscussion today.
He is a historian of World WarII and, you know, I'm just again
really grateful to have himbecause this is an episode that
(01:48):
I've really wanted to do forquite some time now.
So, john, welcome to StrictlyFacts.
Why don't you tell ourlisteners a little bit more
about yourself?
You know your, of course,connection to the region and
what inspired your, you know,passion and interest in studying
World War II.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
Yes, well, first of all, thank you.
I'm really excited to be hereto talk about this.
I think this, that connectionbetween the Caribbean and the
global conflict of the 20thcentury, is really important,
especially in our current time.
But how I got here?
Well, it's sort of part familypart, my own madness.
My mother is Trinidadian.
She grew in canada before shemoved to england, which is why I
(02:27):
sound like this.
But I grew up in london, england, my mixed household, my
father's an irishman, mymother's canadian, but a strong
caribbean roots.
Of course, in england,especially in london, south
london, you can't avoid thestrong caribbean diaspora groups
there.
And through that and my owninterests, I sort of stumbled
with a 12-13 year old on storiesof Caribbean veterans.
(02:48):
So I started to prop up aroundyou know the Windrush
celebrations in England aroundRemembrance Day.
You know nothing about it and Istarted to follow and follow it
while continuing my studies indifferent areas and it just
became this thing that I had myacademic work on other things
and then I had all this stuff onCaribbean airmen and soldiers
(03:11):
and sailors in the second worldwar and at some point it just
became.
They just managed to match eachother and I managed to take my
love of the evolving identity ofthe Caribbean and history and
the second world war and putthem together, which is where I
am now, you know, as apostgraduate student of it in
England and I think with asecond world war and doing it
it's an 80 years since the endof the war.
We still live in the shadow ofit, we still have lessons to
(03:32):
learn from it and I thinkespecially Caribbean, the
Caribbean diaspora, should takepride in the role that they
played and if the lessons theydrew from it and I love telling
people about this- certainly,certainly I do want to get some
of the like time period and allthat stuff out of the way before
we really jump into talkingabout the Caribbean.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
So for our listeners, you know, tuning in World War I
, some people know it, as theGreat War started in 1914 and
lasted until 1918.
It was, course, sparked by aconglomeration of things, but
really the assassination ofArchduke Franz Ferdinand from
Austria, you know this quicklyescalated into a global conflict
(04:16):
due to the tangled web ofalliances, imperial ambitions,
militarism several things right,imperial ambitions, militarism,
several things right.
And then you know World War IIpicked off 1939 until 1945,
really massively triggered bythe expansion of Nazi Germany
under Hitler, as a lot of peopleknow.
(04:36):
And once again the world was,you know, really plunged into
the war due to, you know,creating alliances, etc.
But what is often missed,because you know, creating
alliances, et cetera, but whatis often missed because you know
, I think, especially from theUS side over here it's talked
about, you know, the alliedpowers and all of these things,
but what's often missed is thatyou know this wasn't just a
(04:57):
European war right, that's sortof sometimes how it's framed or
not even just European, butmaybe just like a global north
war rather.
I'd say, right it was.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
You know, it's really an imperial war yeah,
especially as an interestingshift that's happening in
especially a lot of Englishhistory now.
So we're getting better, Ithink, of acknowledging that
Britain fought both wars as animperial war.
In the first world war, britainfought as a war of imperial
pride.
You know whether you were anenglishman, an irishman, a
(05:28):
canadian, um, a south african,and then you know the.
It was sold to you.
As this is a war being foughtfor the empire and that's your
role in the empire fight andthat has effects on what happens
between the wars.
But the second world war,especially now, british writers
and even british popular cultureis being acknowledge that we
didn't fight that war alone,that everyone, the British, made
(05:50):
an effort to bring peopletogether to fight fascism and
that had complications in animperial power trying to fight
authoritarian evil while stillruling India, ruling the ruling
the third, the globe, but stillcommitting to a free world.
Afterwards that getscomplicated, we'll get to it.
(06:11):
But these are global wars, asyou say.
We consider them global northwars.
But even though all thefighting doesn't happen in the
global north, even all theeffects of it didn't happen in
the global north and you knowthe caribbean, especially in the
second world war, was't happenin the global North and you know
the Caribbean, especially inthe Second World War, was quite
close to the action.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
Definitely.
I think you know this idea thatyou know the Caribbean or South
Africa other places were justdistant territories is usually
how you know empires talkedabout, especially the British
Empire.
But that's certainly not thetruth, for you know what we
obviously know today, butespecially in this case, for um,
world war one and two, uh, theywere really crucial sources of
(06:49):
manpower, of resources, ofstrategic positioning, you know,
for things like naval bases.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
Um, you know the list goes on, I mean yeah, sugar
bananas, bauxite, we could oil.
One of my favorite anecdotes isum, you know the big like
national mist moment inengland's battle of britain?
You got, you know the?
A spitfire pilots fighting thegerman air force in the skies
over london.
All those planes are being uhflown with fuel refined in
(07:19):
trinidad because it can't comefrom anywhere else and it's the
safest way to get it, and it'salso by time the war starts.
The refineries in Trinidad havethe best engineers and the best
equipment to create the fuelthe air force needs, and they
know this.
So, if you're like, the battleof Britain has won many places
and one of them isPont-au-Pierre in Trinidad.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
So certainly, as we're just sort of, you know,
spitballing things, right, couldyou just share a little bit
more about this idea, as youwere sort of alluding to right
people fighting for the mothercountry, right, and these sort
of varied opinions of Caribbeanpeople just in terms of their
(07:58):
region's involvement?
Speaker 2 (08:01):
yeah, it's a broad, you know, god, I, people have
written papers and I'll try andbe quick about it because,
especially, it's a verydifferent conversation between
the first and second world war.
There is very much anoutpouring of popular support in
the first world war for themother country and for taking
part in the mother countrystruggle.
You know that you've previouslytalked with other people about
(08:21):
the um, the west india regiments, and there's so many people who
want to join up.
They have to create a differentunit for the new volunteers,
which is called the British WestIndia Regiment, and they end up
fighting in modern day Syriaright at the end of the war.
But they also have to do andthat's sort of a nice end, not
nice end, it's.
They are treated reallyhorribly.
(08:45):
The first of all, this is somejuxtaposition of people in the
Caribbean wanting to do theirpart for Britain and for their
locality and hoping that doingso will earn them something in
the future.
And because that doesn't happenby the Second World War,
there's this twist to it thereare lots of people who oppose
the war passively, not actively.
You're never seeing sort ofgeneral active resistance to it.
You to see a lot of.
Why should we take part in thewhite man's fight because we did
(09:07):
it 20 years ago and we gotnothing out of it except riots
and strikes and soldiers on thestreets.
But on the other hand, thereare a lot of people, especially
the younger generation who grewup between the wars, who are
looking at hitler.
They're looking at muslimi.
They're looking at what'shappened, especially in Hitler,
they're looking at Mussolini.
They're looking at what'shappened, especially in Ethiopia
, and they're not willing tostand by.
I think what's foreverinteresting to me is, you know,
(09:34):
there's this whole period wherethe European powers are
attempting to appease the Nazisand the fascists, to try and
push the war off, and on theother hand, in the Caribbean
there are anti-Italian riotsbecause people are so angry
about the Italian invasion ofEthiopia and there are thousands
of people petitioning theBritish government to let them
go and fight the Italians.
You look at a lot of the peoplewho fight in British uniform
(09:55):
later in the war.
They talk about theirradicalizing moment as being the
fall of Ethiopia and the exileof Haïs Elassie.
The fascists are coming for us.
This isn't a European's problemanymore and that motivation
sticks through.
There's a sort of understandingthat we can't sit this one out
either.
I think when the war starts andit looks like it's going to stay
(10:16):
in this, what they call thephony war period, where nobody's
really fighting that oh, thisis just a pointless white man's
war, nothing's going to happen.
But once the Nazis conquerFrance and start bombing Britain
and threatening trade andmovement around the world, this
is going to massively threatenour way of life too.
Because the gamble if you are alot of people who are trying to
(10:39):
remove British rule, introducedemocracy to the colonies, build
the Caribbean that sort of hasbeen imagined, you know, a
century since emancipation thegamble is that the view is well,
we don't like the British.
They're awful, they're happy totreat us badly, cut us out from
leadership, let us live inhorrible conditions, but we can
(11:00):
beat them.
Their system of governancecannot sustain this system.
They're treating us under.
At some point it'll crack,whereas the nazis will just kill
us.
There's a general realacknowledgement there's no way
to negotiate and outfox thenazis.
It will just be violence, andespecially amongst a lot of the
um trade union movements andradicals in places like jamaica.
(11:23):
A lot of these guys are thebritish chucking prison anyway.
The general view is we're goingto resist British rule and
we're going to try and seize theworks.
But we're never going to standin lockstep with, you know,
people who are sympathising withthe Nazis.
We're never going to go andstand in lockstep with the
French collaborators.
It's more of a we're going tostand up for ourselves.
You know, these guys aren'teven bothering to go and do work
(11:48):
with the American governmentbecause they don't trust the
American visa.
I mean, the volunteers knowexactly what they're fighting
for.
You know, in Britain, which isa conscript army, there's a lot
of people who aren't quite surewhat they're fighting for until
they can process it afterwards.
But a lot of the Caribbeanvolunteers are very aware.
There's a story from a Jamaicancalled Dudley Thompson and his
anecdote was he was in a dentistoffice in Kingston and he was
(12:10):
trying to avoid thinking aboutthe surgeries.
He picks up a magazine in frontof him which has an excerpt
from Mein Kampf and he's soupset and angry about what he
reads in Mein Kampf that heimmediately forgets what his
plan is to become a teacher.
It's like I'm going to join theRoyal Air Force.
That's all I've got to do now.
I've got to stop it, supposedlywhen he goes to the recruiting
officer because I like to joinup.
He does all the forms.
The officer goes.
Are you sure you understand?
(12:31):
Because he can't believe thatsome middle-class Black Jamaican
teacher would do this.
And Dudley goes.
Well, of course I do.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
I think that foregrounds and probably even
more so complicates this historyin a lot of ways.
Right, because, as we've talkedabout in the previous episodes,
the experiences of soldiersupon joining, you know, whether
it's the West Indy Regiment orduring, you know, the War of
1812, they weren't great, andthat's me sort of being nice,
(13:11):
right being very nice.
And so, in terms of therecruitment of soldiers and
everything I even you know I'llput it up for our listeners to
check out on the Strictly Factsyllabus, but I even came across
I believe it was either Bahamasor Barbados like a flyer, in
terms of you trying to recruitsoldiers for the, the British
(13:34):
armies, and so you know, couldyou just share about, you know,
ultimately, the experiences ofthese soldiers upon joining
because, as I said, right, theyweren't the nicest and it's very
different depending on the warand the branch.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
I mean the experience in the first of war.
The huge number of volunteersis bad.
You know these guys are signingup with the expectation they're
going to play their part forking and country.
They're going to fight on thefront, they're going to do, in
the very contorted,hyper-masculinity of the 20th
century, proper soldier's work.
You know they think they'regoing to win the glory and they
(14:09):
go through all this brutaltraining that's dehumanising
enough before you deal withracism.
And they arrive in the WesternFront or in Italy or in Egypt
and they discover they're beingused as labourers.
They're being used to digtrenches, dig latrines, move
cargo.
The fury itself.
It really cripples therelationship between the
(14:31):
colonial power and the populacebecause they've sent their young
men to fight and gain glory andthey're not Gaining glory at a
First World War is a little starnext to that, because that's
largely a lot of young men dying.
But it was important at thetime for these people that they
played their part and it becomesa real roost at the end of the
war when there's one unit of theBritish West India Regiment
(14:53):
that's being held as a finallabour unit in Italy as a mutiny
, because they're like we're fedup, we want to go home.
You've told us we can keepgoing home.
White officers andnon-commissioned officers are
abusing us.
We get slurs yelled at us byother soldiers, slurs yelled at
us by other soldiers.
(15:15):
Insanely, when one unit of theWestern Red Ribbon marches
through Alexandria in 1917, theycome through the streets
singing Rule Britannia and theyget jeered by white soldiers for
doing it.
But in their view they haveevery right to because they're
British subjects.
You probably had otherhistorians talk about the
encounter of race.
When you leave the CaribbeanSuddenly you become black in a
way that you aren't in thecolonial space.
And other historians talk aboutthe encounter of race.
When you leave the Caribbean,suddenly you become black in a
way that you aren't in thecolonial space and that's really
(15:39):
alienating for a lot of thesoldiers.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
So you know, Zabitulis.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
Then there are riots when they come back in 1919 and
that kind of this day festersall the way to the Second World
War.
The thing that's different inthe Second World War is they
don't raise a West Indiaregiment until quite late on,
and that's because of what theBritish government is very weird
about.
So the administration doesn'twant to raise a new West Indian
(16:04):
unit for ground fighting and thesort of argument is one, we
don't really know where to useit.
Two, the population is veryuneasy about with us.
They don't like us.
At the moment there's been fiveyears of labour disturbances
the euphemism goes forrebellions and riots and strikes
, and they don't want that yearto cause trouble.
(16:26):
And there's also from thelessons of the First World War.
They do all the numbers inabout 1940-41.
They reckon they could raiseabout three battalions, so about
3,000 men.
All you need is one bad battleand you'd lose 1,000 men.
And there's a real concernabout what would happen if the
news comes back that one of theCaribbean battalions has been
(16:49):
wiped out in a battle in Italyor somewhere.
But it's still pushed back.
So there's a huge protest intrinidad in july 1940 about
wanting to serve as another one,jamaica.
The biggest supporter ingovernment of a west indian
fighter unit is winstonchurchill.
He thinks it's a great idea.
(17:09):
One of these, these veryChurchill.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
I have no idea what it is.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
I guess I don't know, but he's like I really want a
West Indian brigade and he'slike we should send them and
make them a garrison atSingapore.
And he says this in October1941, which is like, oh, that's
nice.
He wants to get them, you know,defend one of Britain's major
naval bases.
But, as some people might know,if they had done that, the
(17:35):
entire brigade would have thenbeen captured by the Japanese
about three months later.
And if we learned anything fromhow the Japanese treat West
African prisoners a few yearslater, it would have ended
really, really badly foreveryone involved.
So this is weird to swing aroundabout, but those who do end up
in service in the Second WorldWar have a very it's a very
similar experience and adifferent one depending on your
(17:57):
branch.
So when the eventual West IndianCaribbean regiment is formed
because they give it a differentname for reasons beyond me,
they basically are used as afetch and carry labour regiment
again by the end of the war.
And that comes down to I, Ithink real anxiety about what
happens if that unit takes heavycasualties, because by the time
(18:18):
they fight in 1943 they're sentout to the middle east in 43,
44.
There's already been instance,with the new zealanders, who you
know are white colonialsoldiers, being withdrawn from
british forces because they'vetaken too many casualties, and
that government is that we can'tface more casualties at home.
(18:39):
It's going to cause too muchdamage to our society and that
the allies but the Americans andthe British and the colonial
British imperial forces aretrying for the second world war
in a way that doesn't involvehaving a lot of young men in
trenches.
The view is that if you havethis Caribbean regiment and they
can do labour work, and thatlabour work means that other men
(18:59):
don't have to go fight as hard,that's fine.
But it still builds this burdenof resentment amongst the
servicemen because they thoughtthey were going to be able to do
something important, and movingboxes in the warehouse might be
important to a bureaucrat andit might be important to a
historian.
80 years later it feels likereal shit at the time.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
Apologies, I shouldn't swear no, but it's
true, and I think you know justto even underscore the numbers,
right, so it's over 15 000caribbean men, um, joining for
World War I and about 6,000 forWorld War II.
Right, and as you were sort ofalluding to by World War II,
things are a lot morecomplicated, especially on the
(19:40):
ground in the Caribbean.
We obviously have the like1930s and 40s labor unrest, as
you also noted, you know, riseof fascism, also, of course,
increased nationalist sentiment.
We can't underscore.
You know how that is obviouslyevolving as well, right, and so
the resistance, of course, isunfolding both at home, you know
(20:04):
, people being sort of by WorldWar II deciding, you know, a
little bit more complicated interms of our involvement.
But what is, as you're sort ofalluding to, some of the
official stances or theconflicts that you know Black
and mixed race people werefacing upon joining the military
(20:24):
, beyond this sort of impetus ofhow they were treating Black
soldiers.
I've just heard several littlecomplicated stories of you know
people like you refer to.
You know teachers joining andother other instances like that
they're sort of multi-layered.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
So I think the one thing is not as black and white
as say, when we talk about blackgis.
Where you have a militarysystem built on, you know
somebody wants to further itcorrectly.
You know it's a parasite in howAmerica fights this war.
Segregation Completely.
They have one of the mostefficient military industrial
(21:03):
complexes ever created in theSecond World War In the middle
of it.
Segregation just completelyscrews it up.
Doesn't happen in the BritishArmy in the same way, especially
the Royal Air Force.
British government has a whatone might call a shadow colour
bar, in the sense that it is onthe rule the books that you
cannot become an officer if youare not of European descent.
(21:25):
Nobody defines what Europeandescent is.
It's very notorious during theFirst World War that British
army has a lot of mixed raceofficers.
We're usually the children ofcolonial bureaucrats and local
women who come back to england,have a british education and
they go to the recruitmentoffice in the first world war
and the recruiting officer sayssomething like are you a pure
(21:47):
european descent?
And either you go yes, and therecruiting officer looks at you,
who goes yeah, right, whatever.
Or you go no and the recruitingofficer looks at you, who goes
yeah, right, whatever.
Or you go no and the recruitingofficer looks at you and goes
walk around the building andcome back and tell me what you
are.
You are then because they don'tcare.
But by the second world warthey're very strict on this and
the interesting thing is thateverybody's very anxious in all
(22:08):
the documents before the war tomake sure nobody knows the rule
exists.
And it's this funny thingthat's absurd to us in the 21st
century that the British Empireis really insistent on the
statute that the official policyis.
There is no racialdiscrimination in the British
Empire.
It's ridiculous.
But all these colonialofficials, all these colonial
(22:29):
office officials.
No one can admit that we do anyof this stuff officially.
So we all know that you'renever going to get a black
foreman in this governmentoffice but you can't admit that
Completely opposite end of theview from the American system.
And it's interesting what theydo to let it through.
I mean, before the war I founddoing solutions the great letter
from a British MP by the nameof Stafford Cripps who ends up
(22:53):
being in the first socialistgovernment after the war and
he's writing to the air ministryto go.
I've got a letter from aconstituent telling me about a
student of his who's mixed racewho was rejected from the royal
air force because of his color.
And the member of parliamentgoes.
But I was told you don't have acolor bar and all the internal
records go.
Okay, we absolutely didn't lethim in the RAF because he's not
(23:14):
white.
But if we admit this inParliament we'll be in trouble.
So we'll just let this oneslide.
And there's another incidentabout six months later where a
Jamaican man goes to London tosign up for the RAF and he's a
very well-credited flightengineer.
He's got all the records andit's only when he walks in for
the interview that the interviewpanel discover he's um black,
(23:37):
he's come all the way fromjamaica on government expense to
do this interview, to be in theroyal air force, and they're
like, well, he's come this far.
We can't tell him no withoutadmitting that it's just a color
issue.
So it's this very odd thingwhere there's a policy that
everyone's kind of aware of,nobody wants to admit it exists,
and it all comes to a head atthe beginning of the war because
(23:59):
the children of a famous blackJamaican civil rights activist,
dr Harold Moody, attempt to jointhe British Army and they're
both turned away and they'reboth privately educated, upper
middle class public school boys.
Apart from their parentsorigins, they're as english as
you can possibly imagine anenglish officer to be.
(24:21):
So when this all comes in frontof the press, the government
doesn't have a leg to standbecause they can't argue, these
guys.
They aren't qualified, theycan't argue, they're unwilling,
they can't argue, they'reforeign nationals.
So the government justbasically goes we're going to
drop the color bar for theduration of hostilities, which
is a code, for we're doing thisbecause there's a war on.
We can do a lot of thingsbecause there's a war on but it
(24:42):
never quite drops.
So it means that by the timeyou have a lot of the West
Indian volunteer servicemenarrive, people like Errol Barrow
, orrick Cross, michael Manley,and when they go through officer
school and pass through becauseof Britain's class system, once
they've got their officer tabsthe prejudice from whatever
prejudice exists drops awaybecause they're officers.
(25:05):
In a certain sense they'reprotected by their military
status in military life.
In a way they aren't civilianlife.
And there's this um billystrachan has a great line about
the sort of complicated natureof it where he says when one
black man walks in he's a friend.
When two walk in they're warybut they can cope and it's
straight when the difficultieshappen.
(25:26):
Strachan was um a force ofnature.
He'd um decided to join the rfin March 1940, sold his
treasured bicycle and saxophoneto pay for his boat ticket to
Liverpool, got off of Liverpool,went to London, walked up to
the Air Ministry and went I'dlike to join the Royal Air Force
.
And the sergeant on the doorwent you're not joining the
(25:47):
Royal Air Force, f*** off.
And he has this row with thesergeant at the door until an
officer posts his head out andgoes oh, are you trying to join
up.
No, you have to go around thecorner for that.
And he goes around the cornerand the guy around the corner at
the recruitment officer goes oh, fantastic, great, just
slamming the door to life,because there's just so much
weird circumstantialism to it.
(26:13):
It's not like Britain isn't aracist country.
It's not like all these, allthe recollections talk about
being stared at in the streetand girls and dancers groping
them, looking for their tailsand really awful stories like
that.
But especially in Britain it'sa different experience to what
they're the generation beforehadn't experienced in Italy and
the Mesopotamia.
Number one, they're not in acompletely military space and
two, theain of the second worldwar is an international island.
(26:33):
It's still as frenchman, poles,czechs, indians, um, south
africans, americans of all types.
So the country is just kind ofaccepting that.
It's a full of different peopleand in many senses you, you
walk in, you're in a brituniform.
That puts more people at easethan anything else.
But everybody has a very oddexperience and it depends as
(26:56):
well on where you are.
So if you're in the RAS, royalAir Force at the time, it is
essentially the hotshot, modern,high-tech, futuristic branch of
the service.
It's difficult to comprehend tous because you know you see
pictures of the aircraft theyfly.
They look so antiquated but youknow these are the most
advanced machines in the worldand the people running this are
(27:19):
trying to run the most advancedorganization in the world and
they've got the most for lack ofa better word.
The smartest people in thecountry are largely involved in
the Royal Air Force.
In the Royal Air Force it is acomment that many I think Cy
Grant, who was shot down in theRoyal Air Force in the
Netherlands and then ends up inprison camp, makes that being in
(27:39):
prison with all his RAFcomrades felt like being at
university, because you'resurrounded by all the smartest
people you've ever met sittingaround waiting for something to
happen.
But it's different for the guyswho were in the Honduran
Forestry Corps.
Who were in the honduranforestry corps who were brought
in to replace war workers inscotland, have a very different
experience of the war becausethey are basically about 1200 of
(28:02):
them were dumped in scottishcommunities to conduct forestry
labor and some of them havereally good experiences.
I wildly, about five years ago,the month before COVID kicked
off, I was in a hospital inEdinburgh and I met two old
they'd be aunties in Jamaica,but they had the thickest
Scottish accents I wasn't quitesure what the correct word would
(28:23):
be, but they were lovelybecause their father had been
one of these Honduran forestworkers and he'd met a local
girl and he'd asked when theywere leaving.
He'd asked her father to marryher and the father had said come
back tomorrow and I'll say yes,knowing they were leaving that
night, and he jumped out of thevan as they left in the bush
(28:46):
till the morning and knocked onthe door and go well, here I am,
well, it worked.
So there's these different.
Yeah, there are a surprisingnumber of West Indians come
across just to work in thefactories and in the coal mines
in the Midlands and you knowthen you can't even count the
number of merchants seeming.
They didn't keep those records.
But it's the different.
Experiences really vary.
(29:07):
I don't think any servicemenhave the same experience of
prejudice.
There are a lot of similarities.
I think every record I've saideverybody's just horrified about
how grey and cold England is,which is a universality.
It's grey and cold today.
I can see it outside.
But I think what's interestingas well about these experiences
(29:28):
is a lot of these people arenever quite sure where they
stand with the British Peopleget lots of flack in the British
.
There's a lot of anxiety in theBritish about sexual patriotism
, about British women walkingout with non-white British men.
A lot of that drops awaywhenever the Americans have a go
at West Indian or Africanservicemen.
(29:50):
People in Britain don't likethat.
There's a lot of stories offamously in America.
There's a story of the Battleof Bamberg Bridge where British
civilians stand up for Americanservicemen.
But there's lots of anecdotesof West Indian servicemen being
stood up for by British soldiers, their superiors, civilians.
(30:11):
There's a great anecdote I knowthere was a shared air base and
there was a Jamaican as part ofone of the flight crews and
when some Americans come intothe mess hall they start
berating him and trying to gethim to leave and one of the
volunteer women, a headmistressfrom a local school manning the
mess counter, walks over andslaps the lead American across
(30:32):
the face and tells him to getout and they just leave and
apparently everyone wascompletely shocked that she'd
done it.
No one expected it.
But that's the sort oftreatment you have.
And I think Baron Baker, who wasa Jamaican pilot no, he was an
air crew asked to speak for theBlack British personnel on his
(30:53):
base to an American colonel andhe was very frank.
Which is?
He went.
We are King George VI's sixthsoldiers, not roosevelt's little
black boys.
We are not foreigners, we arebritish subjects and this is a
mother country and you, as ayankee foreigner, aren't beating
us one inch from where we are.
And he said that to a superiorofficer with, and was backed by,
his own superior.
(31:13):
So it sort of tells you aboutthe weird nuances of
relationship.
It's not that it was alwaysthat they weren't always stood
up, for there were multipleriots in London between white
American servicemen and blackAmerican servicemen and black
British servicemen.
Orrick Cross and Billy Strachanhave most often referred to the
American GIs as their littlebrothers in those fights, in
(31:36):
that they'd always end up comingin to protect them from other
people because they knew how toplay the rules.
Speaker 1 (31:41):
I think especially I mean growing up in America we
obviously don't get this side ofthe story at all Right.
But I think one thing aboutwhen it comes to military
histories, there are alwaysspecific soldiers you know whose
names are sort of heraldedRight, and I've virtually got
none of that in my education.
(32:01):
But I think there are someoutstanding people who you know,
especially later on forCaribbean history become, you
know, monuments of nationalismand things like that.
I mean you mentioned ErrolBarrow first.
You know prime minister ofBarbados and so and so for you,
who are some of those standoutindividuals who really
(32:24):
contributed to either World WarI or World War II?
Speaker 2 (32:27):
I'll start with Barrow, because he's always
fascinating that he was going tobe a teacher too.
He signs up as a navigator inthe Second Barbadian Contingent
with his brother and he fightsthrough the whole war and
post-war.
He ends up as chief navigatorto a man called Air Vice-Marshal
(32:48):
Sholto Douglas, who had been areally important planner and
organiser during the war, andthey have such a close
relationship that Arrow Barrowis Sholouglas's son's godfather.
There's a very interestingrelationship.
That barrow flew 48 missions umin tactical bombers between
september 1944 and may 45, sothat over the space of about um
(33:15):
eight months, nine months, whichis a lot.
Most pilots were withdrawnafter about 20, 30 because of
the exhaustion rates and therisk and he didn't find the most
.
We have to talk about Oret Cross, of course, who was one of the
founding fathers in many senses,not just of Trinidad but a
really important jurist andlawyer across the post-Soviet
(33:35):
Caribbean.
Personal relationships withNkrumah, nyerere, governments of
Canada across the post-warCaribbean.
Personal relationships with thecrewmen, the government of.
You know it's incredible whathe did, but he was also an
unbelievably brave man.
He flew 80 missions with a unitknown as Pathfinders.
The Pathfinders' job was to goin before the bombers to mark
(33:57):
the targets in the completenight and they were reliant
completely on the navigationbeing completely accurate and
cross with a navigator.
And he was so good that a lotof the pilots in his squadron
would do what they could to makesure he flew with them.
And he flew 40 missions.
And they asked him do you wantto fly another 20?
And he went yes, and I can'toff the top of me remember the
(34:18):
chest full of medals he has.
But it's incredible, he's oneof these in many senses the
public face of the caribbean war.
After he's involved in all thepropaganda work that's done with
the bbc um.
After the war he's involved inthe colonial office's attempt to
repatriate the huge numbers ofafrican and west indian
settlements across the world.
I think the one thing we forgetthe war ends on the 8th of May
(34:40):
1945.
It takes until 1947, 1948 foreveryone to get home, and that's
just soldiers, huge refugeecrisis everywhere you can
imagine.
But he's involved in the effortto get all those people home.
I thought it was an interestingone because if you go on YouTube
there's a great two-partlecture he gave for the
Trinidadian Military College andyou know he's um, he's in his
(35:02):
mid-80s and he talks and hisarcane is a little bit like a
cartoon british pilot from the40s.
He talks this way he's verydead, paddy, very dry, and he
can sort of see.
He just even at that age oozesabsolute charisma and I really
recommend the listeners try andsearch out and try and watch it
because I could tell you it, youcan hear it from his own words
(35:23):
and I think you know.
And then sort of you've gotpeople like Owen Sylvester, who
had a much harder time thanCross.
He's not as well connected,cross and Ivanka.
Knowing Louis Constantine butyou know, knowing the most
famous athlete of your countryhelps.
But Sylvester is interesting.
Sylvester, if you had oneexample of the kind of prejudice
you could face, sylvester facedit and went past it.
(35:43):
Um, the infamous story of hebecame a warrant officer of a
bomber crew.
That and the bomber crew reallyliked him.
It was interesting.
Half his crew was white southafricans and at the time they
got on really well with him.
There's an infamous story hegot a new commanding officer and
the commanding officer wasgoing down the line of crews and
(36:06):
they get to um sylvester's crewand he goes and talks with
south african navigator and says, oh, you must be the crew
captain and the navigatoranswers the negative and says
it's warrant officer sylvester.
The ceo looked unhappy and thenturned to his aid later and went
.
I know how to deal with thesepeople, I have experience with
them in india and there's thisconstant then battle.
(36:28):
I've seen the records that'sreally grim, where the ceo is
just trying to trip sylvester upand get him out the unit and
prove him wrong and essentiallyeventually he catches him and
it's a dispute over uniform.
Sylvester turns up in the wronguniform to an event and it's
clearly not Sylvester's faultand he's clearly still angry
about it.
(36:48):
40, 50, 60 years later he'sinterviewed, especially
considering the amount of combathe'd seen, and there's one guy
screwing him over, but also thatone officer screwing him over
then ends up being justified toprevent promotions amongst other
West Indians in the next twoyears.
It's mad.
There's a site called CaribbeanM and it's a great digital
(37:11):
archive and I cannot recommendit more in terms of these
personal stories because it'sgot all the photographs and it's
got all these recollections andit'll tell you that I can't
remember if my head and my notes, all my notes, are sort of
linked to it, because I can'trecommend it enough and I don't
want to credit work, take workthat isn't mine, except to say
that people should go and readit.
I think a story that touched mefrom there and I always think
(37:34):
of is there was a pilot calledVictor Tucker who was a Jamaican
.
He'd come to England before thewar to study at Oxford.
He may have a stock program inthe city of London.
He signs up for the Royal AirForce during the Battle of
Britain and he's incrediblypopular with his unit and he
does very well.
And I think it's the 5th of May1942, they go up to do what they
(37:55):
call the sweep, which is whenthey would go with bombers over
to france to hit a target, totry and goad the german air
force into a fight, to try anddegrade their strengths.
And they go on a morning sweepand he comes down and he's
promoted.
On these.
He's done well enough and thensquadron commander promotes him
provisionally promoted from anon-commissioned officer to an
(38:15):
officer.
And they go up in the afternoonand he's shot down and his
parents find out that he's diedthe same day.
They find out the promotioncomes through.
And it's really tragic.
But it tells you what the kindof sacrifice level was.
I think amongst the Caribbeanvolunteers we're looking at a
50% cash-to-rate of people whowent out and didn't come back
(38:39):
across all the islands.
There's not a lot of people butin terms of the scale that's
punching above the rain.
An average cash rate in bomband command is about 30.
So amongst even the deadliestunit in the royal air force
they're doing, they're punchingabout the way in terms of the
sacrifice.
It's a shame because there is anawareness of it, of that
sacrifice.
It's resurfacing now and youcan sort of know why.
(39:01):
It's not in the anti-colonialperiod.
Now a lot of these guys, theseservicemen, these decorated
soldiers, come home and after1948-49 put the uniform in the
drawer because they've got amore important job.
You know they are nowcommitting to the independent
struggle and for some of them itmeans that uniform has to stay
(39:22):
above the drawer, the medalshave to go to the back of the
cupboard, because something elsemore important is, you know,
errol Barrow manages to balanceit.
I mean, there's famously thepictures of him on Independence
Day in Barbados.
He's wearing his RAF dress.
Blues Him and actually both ofthem, michael Manley, are always
wearing RAF regimental ties, soit's clearly important.
But others put it aside untilreasonably recently and I think
(39:46):
that's just an odd legacy ofit's not an odd legacy, I think
it's an expected legacy of theanti-colonial struggle.
But a lot of these people Idon't think would have taken up
the mantle of resistance they doin the late 40s and 50s if they
hadn't served, because whenyou've been shot at over Germany
(40:07):
at 20,000 feet in the middle ofthe night the British aren't
very scary anymore.
I think it's the same.
You know, in America you havethe constant double victory in
how you lead.
From the return of the GIAustralian civil rights movement
I think you can see thatparallel in the Caribbean and
microcosm in a very Caribbeanway.
You know it's not as grand butit's very Caribbean.
(40:29):
There's a lot of smallcommittees and people in front
rooms figuring out how they wantto do it and you know a lot of
accusatory letters and peoplewho grudges kind of go back to
when they were at schooltogether but they're still going
to put it aside for the nextfive years and come back to it
when they were independent youbring up, you know just, the
tremendous loss of caribbeansoldiers and I, just off the top
(40:50):
of my head, think of the manymonuments that are back home,
sort of in tribute to the lossof all these airmen.
Speaker 1 (40:59):
You know, workers, etc.
Um, you know, for Jamaica,there, of course, is a monument
in National Heroes Park right.
Um, for Trinidad, there isMemorial Park.
I also think of schools.
If you go to several highschools across Jamaica, whether
it's Wilmer's, whether it's JC,you know, and of course I'm sure
the list goes on.
(41:20):
And even within parishes,there's, I think, also one in
Clocktower Plaza in Clarendon,if I'm not mistaken.
There are so many tributes tothe loss of, and you know, just
to really uphold the memory ofthese servicemen who were lost
throughout the wars.
And so, I guess, paralleling or, you know, as a sort of
(41:40):
continuation of that, what aresome of the ways that you find,
you know, we're reallymemorializing and upholding the
memory of these servicemen incontemporary, you know,
caribbean popular culture andBritish popular culture as well,
british, popular culture aswell.
Speaker 2 (41:57):
I can't speak to the Caribbean side being, you know
diaspora, but I think you'reright.
I do remember from summers inTrinidad and Memorial Park is
just, it is important.
I think what always surpriseswith me when I talk to British
audiences is they aren't awarewhether even the black black
British audiences this is a newthing in a way that it isn't to
(42:18):
that to people in the Caribbean.
When my mother goes home andtalks about what I do to her
relatives, they know whatthey're talking about, they know
who these people are.
I think in Britain it'simportant.
This commemoration is becomingmuch more prominent now and much
more important as the firstWindrush generation moves into
sort of that period ofhistorical memory.
Because the Windrush generationmoves into sort of that period
(42:39):
of that historical memorybecause the Windrush generation
is a war generation.
You know, if you look at theEmpire Windrush itself, a good
quarter of people aboard it wereex-servicemen.
There's a very famousphotograph of the stern of the
Windrush coming into London.
You can see the crowd cheering.
A good half of the men in thatcrowd are in RAF uniforms.
They're in a very distinctiveRAF jacket.
(43:00):
They're all wearing them stilland that's really an important
legacy that people sort of havelost and I think needs to be
regained is that the Britainthat the Windrush generation
were part of, that theycontributed to, was as marked a
product of the war as thecountry they came to.
The Caribbean had its ownexperiences of rationing, of
(43:23):
threats to German attack, oftrying to think about a new
world.
You know, one of the thingsthat everyone is surprised at is
, in the middle of the war,jamaica has a massive
constitutional battle and itsfirst elections.
In the middle of the war,there's a commitment with the
British government and theanti-Globalist system that we're
not going to stop.
In the middle of the world.
There's a commitment with theBritish government and the
anti-global system that we'renot going to stop doing this
because of the war.
It's got to happen.
(43:43):
We have to do this and you know, if you read the propaganda of
the time both the Britishgovernment trying to defend
their constitution and theradical, the Jamaican Labour
Party movement, trying to pushfor it is we're fighting this
war so we can have this scuffleover democracy.
So we shouldn't stop and Ithink that's a legacy.
(44:04):
You know, windrush is possiblebecause fascism is defeated, the
idea that you can have amulticultural britain through
all the struggles that it thathas led to to this day.
That is a thing that can onlyhappen because everybody
contributed to the defeat offascism.
That's a lot of what I come downin terms of why the
(44:24):
commemoration happens isimportant.
I think we are, you know, as ageneration really seriously
slips away.
We had a couple of funerals inthe last couple of years of
Windrush-era immigrants who hadbeen RAF veterans and it really
struck certain parts of thecommunity that these people
weren't really finally going.
But that commemoration becomesmore important and it's left the
(44:48):
community now and hit a lot ofthe national institutions.
You know, the RAF Museum, whichis the official military museum
of the Air Force, has veryserious commemoration around
Black veterans, which every yearI think they get a bit better
at improving on.
They've got a wide base oftalks and I think the literature
here is getting a lot better.
You're more likely to pick itup in the schools, I think, than
(45:10):
you used to be, but there'salways a way to go on this.
But I think to me being able toplace the caribbean diaspora's
role in, you know, fightingfascism, defeating fascism, is
important, especially in ourcurrent crisis.
Speaker 1 (45:25):
I did have one.
I also wanted to add um, justbecause I think you know, when
we talk about war, we usuallytalk about men.
That's a gendered conversationthat we'll get into for another
time.
Um, for for sake of time here,but, um, I think dahlia bean's
book jamaican women and theworld wars on the front lines of
change, I think is one that I Idefinitely wanted to shout out
(45:49):
in our conversation today, justbecause there isn't as much you
know, out there, um sort offormally and accessibly really,
um, just in terms ofunderscoring women's roles in
the world horrendously under isasherrod.
Speaker 2 (46:01):
I know a few people working on it and there's some
wonderful oral histories thatare exist and I, you know, I
look forward.
Yeah, there are people doinganalysis now.
There's bits being done.
I look forward to thecontinuing analysis of women.
You know I I feel bad that it'sonly taking this, taking me
this long to talk about unamarson, who you know not only
(46:22):
big ones and from my parish, ifI may add.
But you know, continue, sorrybut you know, not only you know,
uh, you know the linchpin of,you know, transatlantic
pan-africanism, you know thelink between the garvis and the,
but you know also the linchpinof bringing the war to the
Caribbean, in terms of both WestIndies calling, as this BBC
(46:46):
imperative to get West Indianservicemen to speak to home, but
also in terms of supportingCaribbean voices in England,
bringing the radicals into workwith BBC, introducing them to
the wider literary sphere andconnecting.
You know I can't think of.
You know I'm really lookingforward in my PhD to writing
(47:07):
about Una Marsden because she'sjust absolutely brilliant and I
feel quite bad about it becauseI was like it was in my notes.
It was a big Una Marsden inblock capital.
I just sort of went off on astream because she's brilliant
in block capital and it sort ofwent off on a stream because
she's brilliant and you gothrough the archives and looking
at the work done by people likecarol moody, george padmore,
rid of dumba, and she's alwaysthere.
(47:27):
She's always writing theletters, correcting things,
getting annoyed with peopletalking over her when she knows
better.
You know, knowing exactly whenwhatever white british radical
they're talking to is going toscrew them over.
And also having to tolerateHallie Selassie who by any
standard seems to have been areal asshole.
And if we're talking about aplace for you really to go, I
(47:49):
can't recommend Water and Josh.
More by Stephen Bourne.
I can recommend absolutelyeverything Stephen Bourne's
written in terms of thinkingabout Britain and Black Britain
at war.
He's a great writer, veryintelligent writer, got right
into detail, really dug througharchives and oral history
projects to be able to collatethese brilliant collection of
(48:10):
accounts.
I'll make sure that there's alink in your syllabus to his
work.
It's all brilliant.
He's a lovely guy as well.
Speaker 1 (48:19):
Definitely, definitely, definitely.
Yes, of course, I will add allof these links um to the YouTube
, um, you know that you youreferenced earlier at the
YouTube video um, and all ofthese books and things that
we're sharing, because, again, Ithink it's um, for me at least,
the 20th century is sointeresting, in particular
(48:39):
because it's so close and yetsometimes feels so far away or
so unknown um, and so you knowany way that we can uplift these
stories and, as you're sayingright, some of these people, um,
you know, while that generationis certainly aging and have
maybe passed on right, theirstories certainly are part of
who we are and our enduringlegacies.
(49:00):
My final question, of course,was going to be on Windrush and
the sort of subsequent influenceof, you know, the Caribbean in
England after the World War.
So any final words?
Speaker 2 (49:13):
Well, as I said, that Windrush generation is in many
senses the Caribbean greatestgeneration, especially that
first instance.
But the influence is in manysenses, the Caribbean greatest
generation, especially thatfirst instance.
But the influence is anotherway.
You know I mentioned earlier umCy Grant who'd been a bomber
pilot veteran.
He's one of the people whohelped bring Calypso to England.
A lot of the Calypso artistswho come to England iteration
(49:34):
had and are written lots of wellflack words, anti-nazi songs
and anti-fascist songs in the30s and 40s.
So that legacy comes through.
And there's a few people I knowat the moment who are doing a
lot of new and interesting workon looking at how Second World
War veterans and organisationsplayed a big role in the
development of the Caribbeancommunities in England and
(49:55):
keeping links back to thehomeland, especially in the
run-up to the attempt atfederation.
This is a lot of work to be done.
I think as academics we're onlystarting to grasp the long
legacy of that war generationthe Caribbean on Britain and
connect Britain's story properlywith the Caribbean story.
(50:19):
And you know, I think we beingable to look back and connect
them is really important becauseBritain is beginning to come to
terms with its imperial legacyproperly and with its
post-imperial legacy and seeitself as part of a web of very
messy web of internationalcommunities.
Being able to look back and gothe war is important to Britain,
(50:39):
it's important to people whocame to Britain.
We should be able, we canconnect those beyond the
windrush moment.
I think is something I'mexcited about.
And also, who like, who doesn'tlike punching nazis.
Everyone should be able to seethemselves in history and in
popular culture punching a nazi,no matter where they're from or
who they are.
That's a good place to be.
(51:00):
If you're upset about that,maybe you're the one being
punched.
Speaker 1 (51:03):
Right, certainly a story that I think we should all
know just generally, but Ithink especially for the times
we're in now.
Right, but, john, I mean againcan't thank you enough.
You have crossed one of mymajor bucket list podcast items
off my list today.
So I really appreciate yousharing your knowledge and
(51:24):
expertise on the Second WorldWar with us For all my students
joining the podcast who havebeen guests and have shared
their research and buddingresearch.
Really grateful because I knowwe're all in the trenches trying
to finish, but I wish you thebest of luck starting grad
school this fall.
Speaker 2 (51:41):
Thank, you, thank you very much.
Speaker 1 (51:43):
Yes, of course, and you know, for our listeners
tuning in.
I promised you these links, sothey will be up there on the
website.
So go to strictlyfactspodcom.
I've got one final thing foryour listeners to recommend?
Oh yes, of course.
Speaker 2 (51:56):
When the Athletic Atlantic spreads to the western
side they have to cancel all thecarnivals because the lights
they have to put the black eyein.
And this is a song for the lastperformed I believe it was
performed for the first time onthe last night of the last
Trinidad carnival.
The war ends and it's justcalled Adolf Hitler by Destroyer
(52:16):
and it's brilliant and I won'tattempt to sing it but I will
send you it so you can put it inthe show notes and I recommend
all you listeners listen to itbecause it is that proper dry
old star calypso humor appliedto you know, defeating Nazis,
and I think that's great.
there's a fair few, actually, ofthose anti-Nazi.
There's a great Lord Beginner,run your, run Hitler, one from
(52:37):
1940.
But I thought I'd finish, yeah,finish with a good song we love
it and I appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (52:43):
I'm always, you know, as a lover of music, um, so you
know I will definitely beadding those links to the
website.
So again, listeners, be sure tocheck out strictlyfaxpodcom for
more links to learn more about.
You know the tremendous I can'tunderscore enough tremendous
influence and impact of thecarib, world War I and World War
II and thereafter.
(53:03):
And so till next time, look formore.
Thanks for tuning in toStrictly Facts.
Visit strictlyfactspodcastcomfor more information from each
episode.
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Football’s funniest family duo — Jason Kelce of the Philadelphia Eagles and Travis Kelce of the Kansas City Chiefs — team up to provide next-level access to life in the league as it unfolds. The two brothers and Super Bowl champions drop weekly insights about the weekly slate of games and share their INSIDE perspectives on trending NFL news and sports headlines. They also endlessly rag on each other as brothers do, chat the latest in pop culture and welcome some very popular and well-known friends to chat with them. Check out new episodes every Wednesday. Follow New Heights on the Wondery App, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to new episodes early and ad-free, and get exclusive content on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And join our new membership for a unique fan experience by going to the New Heights YouTube channel now!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.