September 4, 2024 • 37 mins
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Embark on a remarkable journey through Caribbean history with us as we welcome Martine Powers, the senior host of the Washington Post Reports, as well as the host creator of the gripping series "The Empty Grave of Comrade Bishop." Martine's personal connection to the Caribbean, stemming from her Trinidadian heritage and family ties to Grenada, brings an intimate and profound perspective to the complex story of Maurice Bishop. Discover the intricate mysteries surrounding Bishop's execution and the enigmatic disappearance of his body, alongside speculations about possible US government involvement.
Creating this series was no small feat, and Martine's dedication shines through as she shares the challenges and triumphs faced over two years of meticulous reporting. Balancing her primary job, relentless travel, and the hustle of gathering credible sources, Martine's commitment to bringing Caribbean stories to life is nothing short of inspiring. Her journey underscores the cultural significance of accurate storytelling, especially for Caribbean Americans yearning to see their heritage represented with depth and authenticity.
The conversation delves into the politically charged atmosphere of Grenada during Maurice Bishop's era, offering a nuanced view far removed from the stereotypical vacation paradise. Through compelling anecdotes and powerful interviews, the discussion captures the intense experiences of those who lived through this turbulent time. It also shines a light on the often-overlooked histories of other Caribbean nations like Jamaica and Haiti, emphasizing the need for more stories that reflect the vibrant, resilient spirit of Caribbean people. Join us to uncover these untold narratives and gain a richer understanding of the Caribbean's multifaceted heritage.
Connect with Martine Powers - Martine.Powers@washpost.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey there, strictly Facts family.
I hope you are doing well.
I'm away this week, but Icouldn't go away without sharing
some Strictly Facts historywith you all, as I do every
other week.
We have a few conversationscoming up on the Grenada
Revolution, but I thought thiswas a great opportunity for a
crossover episode.
In case you hadn't alreadylistened to the amazing
(00:22):
conversation over on Carry OnFriends, what follows is a
remarkable discussion hosted byStrictly Facts producer Auntie
Carrie Ann Reed-Brown, inconversation with Martine Powers
, senior host of the WashingtonPost reports, who also created
the amazing yet heart-wrenchingseries the Empty Grave of
(00:42):
Comrade Bishop heart-wrenchingseries the Empty Grave of
Comrade Bishop.
In the episode, she discussesthe painstaking years she spent
in creating her podcast, holdingtruth to power to tell the
story of Grenadian leaderMaurice Bishop, one of the
region's most significantrevolutionaries, whose life was
tragically cut short in 1983.
(01:03):
Learn more about Power'sjourney and be sure to tune in
to both Carry On Friends and theEmpty Grave of Comrade Bishop
series for more discussions onCaribbean history, storytelling,
our people and our culture.
As always, we hope you enjoylistening and learning.
Lickle more.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
Hello everyone, welcome to another episode of
Carry On Friends, the CaribbeanAmerican Experience.
And let me tell you I'm reallyexcited about this episode.
But before I get into theepisode, I really want to shout
out Carol.
Carol is a supportive listenerwho is instrumental dare I say
(01:47):
instrumental and the catalystfor making this episode happen.
So before I get into my guest,I'll introduce her shortly.
Carol sent me an email.
Did you hear about this podcast?
I said yes.
Months later, she sent meanother email.
You need to email her so shecould come on the podcast.
She's on vacation, but when shecome back, email her.
And so, as a podcaster, youknow a lot of times you're
(02:10):
talking to yourself and so whenan audience member is that
engaged, they're emailing youand they're doing follow-ups.
It is one of the best giftsthat you can have as a podcaster
.
So, carol, I love you like cookfood as a podcaster.
So, carol, I love you.
Like cook food big up yourself.
And it's because of you myguest, martine Powers, is here
on the podcast.
(02:31):
Hi, martine, welcome.
Speaker 3 (02:33):
Hi, thank you so much for having me.
I'm so excited to be here, andalso thank you to Carol, who I
know I love Carol.
I'm a big fan of Carol now.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Yes, all right.
So I'm going to do a briefintroduction on Martine and then
she's going to tell us a littlebit more about herself.
So Martine is an audiojournalist and she's a senior
host of Post Reports, which isthe Washington Post flagship
daily news podcast and drum roll.
She's also the host of theseven part episode podcast
series the Empty Grave ofComrade Bishop, which is about
none other than Grenada's ownMaurice Bishop, who was executed
(03:10):
in a coup in 1983 with severalother people and the whole
mystery around the body, and thebody disappear.
And so if you have not listenedto this podcast series, well,
after this episode run, golisten to it.
You can binge it, but I'mexcited to talk to Martine.
Martine, welcome to the podcast.
So excited to have you.
(03:30):
How are you?
Speaker 3 (03:31):
I'm good, thank you, and I'm excited to jump into the
podcast.
I have to say it's been likemaybe seven-ish months now since
it came out, and so, as you'resaying this, I'm like, oh yeah,
it's such a fascinating historyand I just love the experience
of being able to dive into it,and now that I'm a few months
out of it, I feel like it's evenmore exciting to hear other
(03:52):
people who find this part ofGrenadian history and Caribbean
history like just as engagingand just as, I think,
informative to like our presentmoment.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
All right.
So why don't you tell thecommunity of friends a little
bit about your personal storyand connection to the Caribbean?
Speaker 3 (04:08):
Oh sure, yeah.
So gosh, where do I start?
Well, I'm Martine.
I am originally from Miami,though I live in Washington DC.
Now, as you said, I work at theWashington Post.
But my mom is from Trinidad andmy whole life had been going to
Trinidad, like twice a year, tovisit my grandma, and my aunts
and my uncles go to Maracas,like do the, do the like typical
(04:31):
things you do in Trinidad.
And in the last what was it?
Seven years my parents havebeen living in Grenada.
My parents lived in Miami formost of my life.
Obviously, that's where I grewup.
Grenada.
My parents lived in Miami formost of my life.
Obviously, that's where I grewup, but they decided to retire
in Grenada because, you know, Ithink, as lots of Trinidadians
will understand like to go backto Trinidad.
(04:52):
As my mom would say plentytraffic, plenty crime, and so
they had friends in Grenada andthey decided to move there.
So in the last few years, I'vebeen spending a lot of time in
Grenada to visit my parents andwe have some longtime family
friends who live there as welland basically what started to
happen was I was there meetingpeople who you know were part of
(05:13):
the Grenadian government in theearly 80s or who lived through
this part of the revolution,that part of the revolution, and
people would talk about therevolution and I didn't even
know what they were talkingabout.
I never heard the revolution.
The airport's called MauriceBishop International Airport.
I was like Maurice Bishop, likewho is that again?
And it was through having moreconversations with people in
(05:34):
Grenada, and even you knowfriends in Trinidad who were
like, oh, you got to, you got tohear more about Maurice Bishop,
you got to listen to the speechthat he gave at Hunter College,
that like changed people'slives.
I started to realize like thisperson is incredible and he was
very controversial as well.
And, you know, I think it'simportant to recognize that
there are a lot of Grenadianswho are not down with the legacy
(05:56):
of Maurice Bishop, but heinspired so many people and
hearing about him and hearingabout what it was like in
Grenada in the early 80s andlike how people take such pride
in this part of Caribbeanhistory, that was really
interesting to me.
And then I heard about thisthing that happened in October
of 1983, where Bishop wasmurdered and these other people
(06:19):
were murdered.
And not only were they murdered, which was, I think, highly
traumatic, basically, foreveryone who was in Grenada at
the time.
But then their bodies werenever recovered, which is like a
whole other mystery unto itself.
And it wasn't until I startedhearing people say, well, you
know, like people have beensaying for a while, it was
actually the US government whodisappeared those bodies, or the
(06:42):
US government had something todo with the fact that those
bodies were never recovered.
First I thought, like is that?
You know, people say stuff likethat, like is that really real?
But I started to look into it, Istarted to see the accounts
people had given in the past,some of the documents, and I was
like, oh, this has some legs toit.
And it felt, like you know, asa person who's a journalist at
(07:06):
the Washington Post, what theWashington Post does is we cover
the US government.
I mean, we like hold thegovernment accountable for
things that happen here andhappen in countries around the
world.
And so it felt like there wasthis intersection of here's,
this thing that, like, my familycares deeply about and people
you know that are close to myfamily care deeply about.
And I happen to have this jobthat puts me in a position to,
(07:29):
like, ask some real questionsand try to track down some
answers that you know so manypeople in Grenada are still so
invested in.
So that's kind of where theidea came about.
Though it was, it took years tolike get it off the ground.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
So I'm glad you say that I'm gonna get to the years.
So what I love about the serieswas not only because it was
informative, but there is adistinctive Caribbean element or
essence about the series,because you're speaking with a
lot of people, um, from Grenada,some people from Trinidad and a
(08:06):
couple of Jamaicans in there,and Bajans also, and Bajans.
Yes, but for me I was completelyhooked.
I love documentaries regardless.
I watch so many documentaries.
But you kind of told a similarstory in episode one.
But it's when you called yourmom and your mom said I'm
paraphrasing like honey Martineis on the phone.
(08:27):
Can you stop that?
I can't hear her.
I thought, yes, this is goingto be good, because it was.
And then you heard the cricketsin the background, all of that
stuff, and I thought like yes,this is going to be a nice, warm
blanket reminding me of home.
And that was what drew me in,or made me more excited, not
(08:50):
only because of the historicalelement, but because there was
all these other aspects ofhistory that for lack of a
better word common people areparticipating in, not historians
or not, you know, dr, so-and-solike everyday people who can
recount and tell aspects of ourhistory and do it with the
(09:11):
Caribbean flair that we know ofright.
Speaker 3 (09:14):
Oh, kariana, it just makes me feel so good to hear
you say that, because that'sexactly what I was hoping to do
and, yeah, and I'm just so gladthat that's something that
resonated with you, this idea oflike, because I think that's
the thing that I felt a lot,where I could imagine other
people and, frankly, likeAmericans coming in to tell this
story.
And to be clear, like I'm youknow, I was born in the US, I'm
an American, I speak withAmerican accents, so it's not
(09:36):
like I can like completely standin for the experiences of
people there, but I so wanted.
I was like the texture of whatit means to like be of this
place and to have family hereand to like grown up around
these accents is something thatI really, really wanted to get
across and really wanted to likekind of bring that richness of
here's what you can hearGrenadian accents and Jamaican
(09:56):
accents and Asian accents and so, yeah, I just I thank you for
saying that and I'm glad that wewere successful and trying to
make that texture reallyapparent.
It really was.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
It came with the traditional cast of characters.
You need to find somebody.
There's an auntie who knowssomebody, who knows somebody,
who knows somebody, and therethere was that in the series as
well, and I was just like thisis caribbean life at its finest
right.
So let's go back to how long ittook for this series to
(10:27):
actually happen and let's talkabout the process, like what was
it for you to get this, theseries, approved, and how long
did it take to actually recordand produce the series?
Speaker 3 (10:42):
Yeah, yeah.
So it took a while.
I honestly first startedthinking about this maybe in
2018, so a while back and for ayear or so I was doing some of
that research I was hearingabout.
Oh, there's this mystery, but Ikind of wanted to make sure, if
I pitch this to the Post, is itgoing to be something that I
(11:06):
know?
Who are the people that we needto try to track down?
Like, I have a plan for how wewould investigate this, how we
would report it.
So it was sort of a year ofresearch and, to be clear, like
I have a, I have a real job.
That's like we covered, youknow, this daily podcast.
It's always breaking news aboutTrump and what's happening and
wars around the world orwhatever about Trump and what's
happening and wars around theworld or whatever.
(11:27):
So it's.
You know, a lot of this waslike finding time just on the
edges of my days to be able towork on this, and then, and then
2020 happened, and then it wasCOVID, and then it was like,
like I can't even get to Grenadato see my parents, let alone
like think about traveling forsome documentary thing, and so
it wasn't until like 2021 that Istarted kind of making noise
about it.
But the thing is is that I knewand I don't want to be
(11:50):
disparaging about my employerbecause the post has been
incredibly wonderful and allthis and gave me a ton of time
to work on this, or way morethan I think than people at
other places might have.
But I still knew it was goingto be like an uphill battle,
right, because this is a placefull of Americans who, some of
whom are familiar a little bitwith Grenada from the invasion,
(12:11):
but don't know a lot about thisplace, think that it's called
Grenada, it's like the standardstuff.
And so I was like, okay, how doI make the case that I'm gonna
tell you about this small islandat the bottom of the Caribbean
and you're going to beinterested, as these characters
and the characters are so great.
And so I ended up just makinglike a one episode like history
(12:32):
podcast and not to get too deepinto the details, but there's a
podcast at NPR calledThroughline which, if you're
into history podcasts, youshould definitely listen to
Throughline, because Ramtin andRunt, who are the hosts, they
have a similar kind of take on.
You know, like their familiesare from other places in the
world, you know not Americanplaces in the world, and they
(12:55):
look at history through the lensof, like, what are the stories
that we can tell that aredifferent than how we tell the
story in the US?
And so I kind of went to themand was like, hey, I think you
guys should do a thing on the USinvasion of Grenada.
Like Americans might know thatit happened but they don't know
the story about it.
Like it would be interesting tokind of tell it from the
perspective of, like what washappening in Grenada before the
(13:15):
US showed up.
And so I did this like oneepisode history podcast with
them.
And I wanted to do that podcastbecause I thought it was a
really interesting story to telland it didn't have anything to
do with, like the bodies or muchof like the aftermath of
Bishop's death, but, but mostlyI wanted to use it as like a
proof of concept, right?
So when I came back to peopleat the post, I was like, well,
(13:38):
if you listen to this 45 minutepodcast, like you can hear just
a little flavor of some of thehistory and some of the like
shocking moments that we couldunpack if we really leaned into
this.
And so so there was that Iwrote a pitch memo, I wrote an
outline, I made like a faketrailer.
I mean, most of the tape inthis trailer like never saw the
light of day.
(13:58):
But but just because I likereally had to like dot my I's
and cross my T's to make thecase like I'm capable of doing
this, here's a plan, here's whatit would take.
And so they finally said yes,and then after that it was about
yeah, it was basically one yearof reporting and in that year I
(14:19):
think I made two trips toGrenada.
One was an actual work trip, onewas a like vacation to see my
parents where I was just doingwork stuff on the side, and that
year I was still doing my mainjob but then I'd have one to two
days a week to work on this.
So it was really hustling toget the reporting going.
So that was one year, and thenbasically the nine months after
(14:41):
that I had full time to work onthis, and then it was like we're
writing scripts, we'rerecording narration, we're
making drafts and um, and sothat that last nine months was
the, was the real, like rubberto the road you know, even as
we're writing scripts, peoplethat we're trying to get in
contact with for months andmonths, for over a year, like
are finally calling us back.
(15:02):
So then we have to go back andre-ord things because things are
changing now that we finallyheard from this witness and so
it was definitely exciting, butit was well, it was stress and
and, you know, I think we couldhave worked on it for a whole
nother year and found even moreand but at some point it was
like OK, we got a lot here andlike let's get it out, let's
(15:22):
give people an opportunity tolisten.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
I love that you are able to tell the story in this
way and I'm a history geek andthe fact that you're telling
this story in a way that so,from you know your pre-research,
it's about like what two years,two and a half give and take,
and even you, just talking about, you know the people you are
trying to reach.
(15:45):
One of my favorite parts was, Ithink, towards the end of the
series, you're trying to get intouch with this one person.
Y'all were looking through,scouring through phone books.
Y'all were asking the Jamaicanswho worked at the Washington
Post, do your mother, yourgrandmother, some auntie know
somebody?
And I was just like, yes, thisis how we do things Ask somebody
(16:07):
if they know somebody.
And he came through at the endand I was like they did it.
So it was a bit of a suspense inthat part as well, but it goes
to show the effort that it takesto tell these very Caribbean
stories in an American context.
Right, and I think where youlive in America, as a Caribbean
(16:29):
Americans, you're like but weknow this, why the world don't
know this?
So what were some of the thingsthat you uncovered or learned
about your culture or beingCaribbean and these things that
are important or known to yourparents and people of your
parents' generation or evenyounger folks, but it's not that
(16:49):
I don't want to say not thatimportant, but it's not top of
mind or front of mind for thosewho live in America and what you
learn about how that impactsCaribbean folks and telling
those stories or trying to getthose stories to be told, if
that makes sense.
Speaker 3 (17:05):
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, I think the trick withthis podcast and what I found
personally really challenging,was this feeling of like I know
there are going to be auntiesand uncles who are going to
listen to people like you, who,like know this history and this
is like a part of their culture.
We're going to listen to thispodcast because you know there
are so few, like from major newsoutlets, right, like there are
(17:27):
so few kind of like deep divestorytelling, especially into
the eastern caribbean.
I mean, I think there's like um, you know a certain way, that,
like haiti and the dominicanrepublic and cuba are covered,
but, like, once you get down tobarbados, grenada, trinidad, um,
uh, dominica, um, I think youdon't see that type of coverage
from mainstream news outlets.
So it was like both trying tospeak to an audience of
(17:49):
Caribbean people and alsospeaking to an audience of
Americans who, again, like thereare people who are going to
listen, who are like Granada,like I thought that was a place
in Spain, and like having togive a dumbed down version
without making it feel likewe're like speaking down to
people or recognizing that it'sgoing to be a diverse audience
(18:10):
hearing this.
But I mean the thing that Ifound so powerful about just
imagining this time in historyis that there's such a kind of
US cultural imagination aboutthe Caribbean.
That's all about like chillvibes, right, you go to the
Caribbean, you go to a resort,there's beautiful rum punch, you
like eat lots of things withcoconut in it, and you know
(18:32):
someone might be playing steelpan and it's great.
You know that it's all verylike tranquil and relaxing and
everything's on island time andyou know, certainly like you can
go to any of these islands andobviously, like there is an
aspect of that and I thinkthat's something to be proud of
too.
Right, it's a place wherepeople love pleasure and love to
be with each other and slowingdown and I think that out there,
(18:53):
making Ronald Reagan mad andannoyed and Maurice Bishop is
(19:13):
living rent-free in RonaldReagan's head and to hear what
it was like in Grenada at thistime, where there is a Soviet
embassy and the Soviets arehobnobbing with the North
Koreans, and then there areEuropeans who are there and they
might be spies, everyone iswondering like who's a spy for
everyone else?
And it's like this you know,what you could describe as a
(19:36):
small place is this epicenterfor so much geopolitical high
stakes negotiations and, likeeveryone here, has this
connection to something biggerin the world, and I think that's
what I was excited to tell that, like this is a part of the
world that is important and has,like this, rich political and
(20:01):
cultural history, and like stuffthat was going on there was
intense and it was, you know,really difficult at times and
obviously really scary at times,but that this time was
important and that the peoplewho are at the center of this
were important people, and Ifeel like that's a lot of what I
wanted to get across.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
Yes, beautifully said .
It was a lot ofmisunderstanding like who are
these people, why?
Why should I care?
But you were able to tell it ina way that I appreciated
because it was through adifferent lens, because, again,
we think of all the ways thatwe've gotten the message or the
story about Grenada, mauriceBishop and even before him, his
(20:44):
coup with Gary and all theseother things.
It was like telling a fullerpicture.
Speaker 3 (20:51):
Because and not to cut you off, but because, yeah,
like, even for people who theAmericans that I find, who know
about the US invasion of Grenada, they still think of it like,
even if they're on the side of Ithink, that the invasion was
the wrong thing for the US to do.
A lot of times it's rooted inthis idea of like, but you know
why did we even show up to thistiny island anyways?
This was so silly and I thoughtat the time like what a waste
(21:13):
of time and resources andAmerican lives to invade this
place that is, you know, thesize of Atlanta.
It's just understanding of thathistory that's not rooted in
what was actually happeningthere and how it felt to be on
the receiving end of that.
But sorry, continue with yourquestion.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
No, exactly that right.
Because again, everything feelsvery distant and it was very
real to the people who livethere, the people in the region,
like all the other Caribbeancountries who came in and to be
part of the investigativeprocess.
I thought that was somethingnew that I learned.
(21:49):
I didn't realize that therewere all these other Caribbean
countries that were part of theinvestigative process and it was
just like wow.
But for me it was the storiesfrom the widows and the children
that was the most impactful,what they remembered, what they
they remember the day veryclearly, you know, cause it's
(22:12):
like it is forever etched,frozen in time in their minds
about what that day was, whatthey were doing.
And I just really appreciatedthe telling of the story.
You know, I felt like thespeech.
Again, we know lots of peopledon't really care for Maurice
(22:32):
Bishop, but I think giving thebroader picture and not being
biased in the telling of thestory, as as in making Maurice
too much of a hero, kind oftelling both sides again love
the story, love the charactersin the story and even you
sharing some of the angst, Iguess, about getting the data or
(22:57):
the information you needed tocomplete the story.
So I kind of felt that you feltsome responsibility in, like I
need to tell this story.
I don't want my mother and myfather to be ashamed of me.
Speaker 3 (23:11):
Yeah, yeah, that's a real honestly yes.
Well, and cause it felt like Imean not to say that other
people can come in uh later andlike make even more progress.
And I still think that there'slike more to uncover and and and
we're still trying to getdocuments and and um and get
more people to talk to us.
But it's like to me it felt alittle bit like this is kind of
(23:32):
one of the last shots to get aclearer picture of this because,
especially, it's been 40 yearsnow and so, like, a lot of
people have died since then.
You know, it's like right aroundthe mark where people who are
in the military if they're like25, 26, 27,.
You know those people are inthe military.
If they're like 25, 26, 27,.
You know those people are intheir late 60s and so that's.
You know they're still youngenough to have really good
(23:53):
memories and to be able to talkreally fully about what happened
there.
But, like, once you get tofolks in their 70s, 80s, like it
gets a little harder.
And so, yeah, if you're hearingangst in there, it's the angst
of feeling that you know theWashington Post is not going to
send another reporter to go likedo more of this again and
(24:14):
really wanting to get as manyanswers as we could with the
opportunity that we had here,and I think we did get like a
lot of pretty good answers.
So I think that there is stillmore to tell of the story.
I do agree.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
And so, as we kind of wrap up, I mean, now that
you've done this, what are yourhopes or what do you think the
opportunity exists for morestories like this, maybe not
from a major news outlet likethe Washington Post, but telling
of Caribbean histories orCaribbean stories in a way that
(24:48):
a mostly American audience canappreciate or learn about the
history of this region, which isso complex, which you know, you
and I know, is.
It was the first little testtube of a lot of things that we
now experience in the world.
So I'd love to get yourperspective on, now that you've
(25:09):
done this project, where elsecan you think it'll go, and the
opportunities for Caribbeanstories and podcasters to tell
more stories.
Speaker 3 (25:19):
Yeah, that's a really good question.
I mean, specifically with thismystery and with Grenada, one of
the big closed doors that wehad that one hopes will open
soon is there's a lot ofclassified documents that the
State Department has about theUS invasion of Grenada that are
currently quote unquote underdeclassification review.
(25:39):
So 40 years is about the periodof time that a lot of these
federal records are supposed tobe made public.
But they still have to gothrough them to make sure that
there's like nothing that wouldstill affect the US's
relationships with other placesor whatever, and so I think,
once some of those documentsbecome public, I have some
optimism that there might benuggets in there that can close
(26:01):
some of these gaps.
You'll also hear when you listento the podcast.
There's one or two people, oneperson in particular, who I'd
really love to get him to agreeto an interview, and he's told
me many a time at this pointthat he doesn't want to be
interviewed about this, but Iremain optimistic that maybe in
the future he'll be open totalking about his time in
(26:22):
Grenada and what that meant.
So there's some of that stuff.
But I think to your point morebroadly, there's so many stories
in the Caribbean that I thinkare, yeah, just ripe for the
telling.
I mean one that comes to mindJamaica, and I think many of
your listeners either might haveread, or be familiar with, a
(26:44):
Brief History of Seven Killingsby Marlon James, which I believe
they're making into, I think, aNetflix series, or at least
like a TV series.
Speaker 2 (26:52):
Listen, it was supposedly bought by HBO.
I cannot remember her name, butthe woman who did Insecure I
can't I'll butcher her name IssaRae, not Issa, but the woman
Malatakis I cannot remember hername was was associated with it
at this one point, so I don'tknow where it is now.
So it's it's supposed to havesome film rights but it's not
(27:17):
there.
But I agree that book was.
Speaker 3 (27:21):
Yeah, yeah.
And when you talk about therole of, you know, the US
clandestine services in Jamaicaat that time it was, you know,
and like manly, and there's likethe political stuff, the spy
espionage stuff, the Bob Marleystuff.
I mean I think that that's apart of history that would be
like great to dive into more.
One thing that I've also beenthinking about more recently is,
(27:44):
you know, obviously Haiti is inthis like incredibly dire
moment right now with thesituation with gangs there and
this new peacekeeping forcethat's coming in, which includes
, is headed by Kenya, but Ibelieve will also include Bajans
, Bahamians and I thinkJamaicans you might have to fact
(28:07):
check me on that part, I thinkJamaicans, you might have to
fact check me on that part.
But but the idea of Caribbeanpeacekeepers going into another
Caribbean country in, I think, avery fraught and complicated
moment, like some of it, bringsa little Grenada like to me and
what it means for you know, likethe military of one Caribbean
country to go into another.
But also I just think thatthat's a that's a story that is,
(28:29):
at least to an Americanaudience, is being told with
American voices in many ways,and I just feel like there's so
much more that needs to be doneand reported.
That brings in more of thattexture of like what it feels
like for Haitians to be goingthrough this and what it feels
like for Haitian Americans andhow fraught and complicated this
(28:51):
all is.
And, like my uncle, my husbandis Haitian and I love him dearly
and he's just such a like fun,interesting, vibrant, funny
person and I feel like that'ssuch the quality of Haitians
generally and is the quality of,like Caribbean people in
(29:12):
general, right Like.
This is a place of that textureof of how you know, like what
it means to be Haitian and howproud Haitians are of where they
(29:34):
come from.
Even though this is a really,really difficult and frightening
moment, and I yeah, I justthink that there's a lot to do
on that.
I don't know if I'll be the oneto do it, but I would encourage
other people to to really liketake a stab at that I definitely
like that.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
you brought up the point of Jamaica.
So just quick sidebar you know,when I moved here to this
country in like 93, like upuntil that point I mean, I was
too young to participate inpolitics.
But even though I couldn'tparticipate, you experienced
politics, right?
So in Jamaica around electiontime, you know you didn't wear
(30:13):
certain colors.
You know there were certainthings that you experienced and
one of the things, when Istarted studying American
politics and I came here, I waslike, oh, I don't have to be
scared of you know theseconversations about Democrats or
Republicans, right, this issuch a different approach than
when you're in Jamaica.
(30:33):
You live in specific communitiesthat are particular political
party and I think for me whenand January 6th happened and
everything leading up to that,it was very frightening to me
because I saw a point where Iwas I'm over 40.
So there's a point where growingup in Jamaica, where politics
(30:55):
could get very violent, that'swhat this brings up for me, this
anxiety because I can, I knowwhere that can go and seeing
this play out, I'm like, oh,this feels very reminiscent.
I remember there was when I wasvery young there they had a
(31:16):
campaign about wearing blue andthey had this PSA song.
All we are saying is give peacea chance, because they didn't
want political violence, didn'twant political violence.
And to see that play outJanuary 6th and you know all the
all the things that arehappening feels gives me that
(31:37):
level of anxiety, because I'veseen the threads of this.
This is, yes, yeah, in, in inJamaican politics in the
eighties.
So so, so that's so.
It's interesting that you saythat, because we have these
different perspectives, livingoutside the country and now
living here and seeing how thecountry's now changed and
juxtaposed to where ourcountries are now moving to and
(32:00):
the US is moving away from whatwe were trying, it's just very
interesting.
Speaker 3 (32:04):
So yeah, no, I think that's a really important point
and I mean just to just toquickly mention I don't know if
it's OK for us to say like whenwe're recording this, but you
know, we're recording this onwhat?
Friday, may 31st, which is aday after Trump was just
convicted and this hush moneytrial in New York, which is what
I actually now cover, like nowthat I'm back on Daily News.
(32:26):
But I saw this meme thatsomeone posted yesterday that I
thought was really insightful,that it just showed a map of the
Americas and it's like NorthAmerica and South America and
the Caribbean, and like theseare all the places where heads
of state or heads of governmenthave been convicted of a crime,
either before or after they'reelected, and like now you add
(32:47):
the us to that, and I just Ithink that there's been a lot of
the narrative of like oh, thisis historic, that america has
never seen a former presidentcharged with a crime, and that's
true.
But actually, like in thescheme of the world and in the
scheme of this part of the world, it's actually not that unusual
.
And to think about how thesethings can kind of escalate and
(33:08):
play out, and like even I washaving a conversation with one
of the other producers who workson this podcast yesterday where
we're like well, what happensif Trump is put on house arrest
during that campaign?
But what if his supporters wentto his house to try to free him
from house arrest?
Which is like kind of whathappened with Maurice Bishop,
right, that he was on housearrest and people thought that
(33:28):
it was unjust and they tried tofree him, and the circumstances
are hugely different in both ofthese cases.
But that's just all to say that.
I think there is a little bitof an American bias against
thinking that like, oh, the UScan go in that direction, right,
that it's like, well, we'reAmericans, we solve things a
(33:50):
different way and in these likesmall chaotic countries and
Latin American in the Caribbean,they do things a different way.
But like, we're exceptional andwe're not exceptional, and I
think for a lot of people,january 6th was a wake up call
to that.
But I think even now it's,without being too like
pessimistic or alarmist, I dothink it's insightful to
(34:12):
understand well, this is howthings escalate in other
countries and it's not outsidethe realm of possibility that we
could see a future escalationhere in the US, whatever this
looks like.
But not to say that I want thatto happen.
Speaker 2 (34:27):
No, and that's exactly it.
We don't want it to happen.
But you have a generation ofCaribbean folks like my mom and
everyone is just like Lord Jesus.
What is going on?
Like they're very like oh, soum, but this is for another
podcast, but I I do appreciateum you being on the podcast,
truly enjoyed the conversation.
(34:47):
Big up to all the Jamaicans atWashington Post who pitched in
on the investigative.
Speaker 3 (34:55):
Many grandmas were asked if they knew an Earl Brown
.
It was yeah, it was funny tosend out that message because we
have like a Black People Slackchannel at work and I was like,
okay, listen up, black peopleLike among you I'm sure there
are Jamaicans please, everyone,raise your hand and then you
have to commit to uh, yes,calling your family members and
I felt you, you're like when shesaid, when you said Earl Brown,
(35:17):
I said, boy, that feel likeevery other Jamaican, every two
Jamaican men with that name yes,my last name is Brown I'm like,
I don't know not to go down.
Speaker 2 (35:27):
So it was in those moments where you're just like.
I mean, culture is life.
You know, even in these seriousmoments they find some way to
bring some levity into thesethings and it's a really great
series and thank you again forhoping to spearhead this and
bring this again, for helping tospearhead this and bring this.
(35:50):
You know, so a new generationof Caribbean Americans, children
born here to Caribbean parents,can understand a part of their
history and culture.
And so the Empty Grave ofComrade Bishop is available on
all podcast platforms.
I'll include that link in theshow notes.
And, martine, any final wordswhere people could find you all
that good stuff.
Speaker 3 (36:09):
I just, yeah, just listen to the podcast.
The podcast that I do for myactual job post reports.
That's a daily show, socertainly subscribe to that too.
And yeah, other than that, Itry not to.
I used to be on Instagram andTwitter and went on to try to be
less on that because it's justlike ruining my life.
So so, yeah, just listen.
(36:31):
And, and if you want to reachout my, my email is always open
martinepowers at washpostcom.
So, thank you so much forhaving me.
Speaker 2 (36:39):
Thank you and, as I love to say at the end of every
episode walk good.
Speaker 3 (36:44):
I love that.
Speaker 1 (36:45):
Yeah, good, I love that.
Yeah, thanks for tuning in toStrictly Facts.
Visit strictlyfactspodcastcomfor more information from each
episode.
Follow us at strictlyfactspodon instagram and facebook and at
strictlyfactspd on twitter.
Hey there, strictly Facts family.
I hope you are doing well.
I'm away this week, but Icouldn't go away without sharing
some Strictly Facts historywith you all, as I do every
other week.
We have a few conversationscoming up on the Grenada
Revolution, but I thought thiswas a great opportunity for a
crossover episode.
In case you hadn't alreadylistened to the amazing
(00:22):
conversation over on Carry OnFriends, what follows is a
remarkable discussion hosted byStrictly Facts producer Auntie
Carrie Ann Reed-Brown, inconversation with Martine Powers
, senior host of the WashingtonPost reports, who also created
the amazing yet heart-wrenchingseries the Empty Grave of
(00:42):
Comrade Bishop heart-wrenchingseries the Empty Grave of
Comrade Bishop.
In the episode, she discussesthe painstaking years she spent
in creating her podcast, holdingtruth to power to tell the
story of Grenadian leaderMaurice Bishop, one of the
region's most significantrevolutionaries, whose life was
tragically cut short in 1983.
(01:03):
Learn more about Power'sjourney and be sure to tune in
to both Carry On Friends and theEmpty Grave of Comrade Bishop
series for more discussions onCaribbean history, storytelling,
our people and our culture.
As always, we hope you enjoylistening and learning.
Lickle more.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
Hello everyone, welcome to another episode of
Carry On Friends, the CaribbeanAmerican Experience.
And let me tell you I'm reallyexcited about this episode.
But before I get into theepisode, I really want to shout
out Carol.
Carol is a supportive listenerwho is instrumental dare I say
(01:47):
instrumental and the catalystfor making this episode happen.
So before I get into my guest,I'll introduce her shortly.
Carol sent me an email.
Did you hear about this podcast?
I said yes.
Months later, she sent meanother email.
You need to email her so shecould come on the podcast.
She's on vacation, but when shecome back, email her.
And so, as a podcaster, youknow a lot of times you're
(02:10):
talking to yourself and so whenan audience member is that
engaged, they're emailing youand they're doing follow-ups.
It is one of the best giftsthat you can have as a podcaster
.
So, carol, I love you like cookfood as a podcaster.
So, carol, I love you.
Like cook food big up yourself.
And it's because of you myguest, martine Powers, is here
on the podcast.
(02:31):
Hi, martine, welcome.
Speaker 3 (02:33):
Hi, thank you so much for having me.
I'm so excited to be here, andalso thank you to Carol, who I
know I love Carol.
I'm a big fan of Carol now.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Yes, all right.
So I'm going to do a briefintroduction on Martine and then
she's going to tell us a littlebit more about herself.
So Martine is an audiojournalist and she's a senior
host of Post Reports, which isthe Washington Post flagship
daily news podcast and drum roll.
She's also the host of theseven part episode podcast
series the Empty Grave ofComrade Bishop, which is about
none other than Grenada's ownMaurice Bishop, who was executed
(03:10):
in a coup in 1983 with severalother people and the whole
mystery around the body, and thebody disappear.
And so if you have not listenedto this podcast series, well,
after this episode run, golisten to it.
You can binge it, but I'mexcited to talk to Martine.
Martine, welcome to the podcast.
So excited to have you.
(03:30):
How are you?
Speaker 3 (03:31):
I'm good, thank you, and I'm excited to jump into the
podcast.
I have to say it's been likemaybe seven-ish months now since
it came out, and so, as you'resaying this, I'm like, oh yeah,
it's such a fascinating historyand I just love the experience
of being able to dive into it,and now that I'm a few months
out of it, I feel like it's evenmore exciting to hear other
(03:52):
people who find this part ofGrenadian history and Caribbean
history like just as engagingand just as, I think,
informative to like our presentmoment.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
All right.
So why don't you tell thecommunity of friends a little
bit about your personal storyand connection to the Caribbean?
Speaker 3 (04:08):
Oh sure, yeah.
So gosh, where do I start?
Well, I'm Martine.
I am originally from Miami,though I live in Washington DC.
Now, as you said, I work at theWashington Post.
But my mom is from Trinidad andmy whole life had been going to
Trinidad, like twice a year, tovisit my grandma, and my aunts
and my uncles go to Maracas,like do the, do the like typical
(04:31):
things you do in Trinidad.
And in the last what was it?
Seven years my parents havebeen living in Grenada.
My parents lived in Miami formost of my life.
Obviously, that's where I grewup.
Grenada.
My parents lived in Miami formost of my life.
Obviously, that's where I grewup, but they decided to retire
in Grenada because, you know, Ithink, as lots of Trinidadians
will understand like to go backto Trinidad.
(04:52):
As my mom would say plentytraffic, plenty crime, and so
they had friends in Grenada andthey decided to move there.
So in the last few years, I'vebeen spending a lot of time in
Grenada to visit my parents andwe have some longtime family
friends who live there as welland basically what started to
happen was I was there meetingpeople who you know were part of
(05:13):
the Grenadian government in theearly 80s or who lived through
this part of the revolution,that part of the revolution, and
people would talk about therevolution and I didn't even
know what they were talkingabout.
I never heard the revolution.
The airport's called MauriceBishop International Airport.
I was like Maurice Bishop, likewho is that again?
And it was through having moreconversations with people in
(05:34):
Grenada, and even you knowfriends in Trinidad who were
like, oh, you got to, you got tohear more about Maurice Bishop,
you got to listen to the speechthat he gave at Hunter College,
that like changed people'slives.
I started to realize like thisperson is incredible and he was
very controversial as well.
And, you know, I think it'simportant to recognize that
there are a lot of Grenadianswho are not down with the legacy
(05:56):
of Maurice Bishop, but heinspired so many people and
hearing about him and hearingabout what it was like in
Grenada in the early 80s andlike how people take such pride
in this part of Caribbeanhistory, that was really
interesting to me.
And then I heard about thisthing that happened in October
of 1983, where Bishop wasmurdered and these other people
(06:19):
were murdered.
And not only were they murdered, which was, I think, highly
traumatic, basically, foreveryone who was in Grenada at
the time.
But then their bodies werenever recovered, which is like a
whole other mystery unto itself.
And it wasn't until I startedhearing people say, well, you
know, like people have beensaying for a while, it was
actually the US government whodisappeared those bodies, or the
(06:42):
US government had something todo with the fact that those
bodies were never recovered.
First I thought, like is that?
You know, people say stuff likethat, like is that really real?
But I started to look into it, Istarted to see the accounts
people had given in the past,some of the documents, and I was
like, oh, this has some legs toit.
And it felt, like you know, asa person who's a journalist at
(07:06):
the Washington Post, what theWashington Post does is we cover
the US government.
I mean, we like hold thegovernment accountable for
things that happen here andhappen in countries around the
world.
And so it felt like there wasthis intersection of here's,
this thing that, like, my familycares deeply about and people
you know that are close to myfamily care deeply about.
And I happen to have this jobthat puts me in a position to,
(07:29):
like, ask some real questionsand try to track down some
answers that you know so manypeople in Grenada are still so
invested in.
So that's kind of where theidea came about.
Though it was, it took years tolike get it off the ground.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
So I'm glad you say that I'm gonna get to the years.
So what I love about the serieswas not only because it was
informative, but there is adistinctive Caribbean element or
essence about the series,because you're speaking with a
lot of people, um, from Grenada,some people from Trinidad and a
(08:06):
couple of Jamaicans in there,and Bajans also, and Bajans.
Yes, but for me I was completelyhooked.
I love documentaries regardless.
I watch so many documentaries.
But you kind of told a similarstory in episode one.
But it's when you called yourmom and your mom said I'm
paraphrasing like honey Martineis on the phone.
(08:27):
Can you stop that?
I can't hear her.
I thought, yes, this is goingto be good, because it was.
And then you heard the cricketsin the background, all of that
stuff, and I thought like yes,this is going to be a nice, warm
blanket reminding me of home.
And that was what drew me in,or made me more excited, not
(08:50):
only because of the historicalelement, but because there was
all these other aspects ofhistory that for lack of a
better word common people areparticipating in, not historians
or not, you know, dr, so-and-solike everyday people who can
recount and tell aspects of ourhistory and do it with the
(09:11):
Caribbean flair that we know ofright.
Speaker 3 (09:14):
Oh, kariana, it just makes me feel so good to hear
you say that, because that'sexactly what I was hoping to do
and, yeah, and I'm just so gladthat that's something that
resonated with you, this idea oflike, because I think that's
the thing that I felt a lot,where I could imagine other
people and, frankly, likeAmericans coming in to tell this
story.
And to be clear, like I'm youknow, I was born in the US, I'm
an American, I speak withAmerican accents, so it's not
(09:36):
like I can like completely standin for the experiences of
people there, but I so wanted.
I was like the texture of whatit means to like be of this
place and to have family hereand to like grown up around
these accents is something thatI really, really wanted to get
across and really wanted to likekind of bring that richness of
here's what you can hearGrenadian accents and Jamaican
(09:56):
accents and Asian accents and so, yeah, I just I thank you for
saying that and I'm glad that wewere successful and trying to
make that texture reallyapparent.
It really was.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
It came with the traditional cast of characters.
You need to find somebody.
There's an auntie who knowssomebody, who knows somebody,
who knows somebody, and therethere was that in the series as
well, and I was just like thisis caribbean life at its finest
right.
So let's go back to how long ittook for this series to
(10:27):
actually happen and let's talkabout the process, like what was
it for you to get this, theseries, approved, and how long
did it take to actually recordand produce the series?
Speaker 3 (10:42):
Yeah, yeah.
So it took a while.
I honestly first startedthinking about this maybe in
2018, so a while back and for ayear or so I was doing some of
that research I was hearingabout.
Oh, there's this mystery, but Ikind of wanted to make sure, if
I pitch this to the Post, is itgoing to be something that I
(11:06):
know?
Who are the people that we needto try to track down?
Like, I have a plan for how wewould investigate this, how we
would report it.
So it was sort of a year ofresearch and, to be clear, like
I have a, I have a real job.
That's like we covered, youknow, this daily podcast.
It's always breaking news aboutTrump and what's happening and
wars around the world orwhatever about Trump and what's
happening and wars around theworld or whatever.
(11:27):
So it's.
You know, a lot of this waslike finding time just on the
edges of my days to be able towork on this, and then, and then
2020 happened, and then it wasCOVID, and then it was like,
like I can't even get to Grenadato see my parents, let alone
like think about traveling forsome documentary thing, and so
it wasn't until like 2021 that Istarted kind of making noise
about it.
But the thing is is that I knewand I don't want to be
(11:50):
disparaging about my employerbecause the post has been
incredibly wonderful and allthis and gave me a ton of time
to work on this, or way morethan I think than people at
other places might have.
But I still knew it was goingto be like an uphill battle,
right, because this is a placefull of Americans who, some of
whom are familiar a little bitwith Grenada from the invasion,
(12:11):
but don't know a lot about thisplace, think that it's called
Grenada, it's like the standardstuff.
And so I was like, okay, how doI make the case that I'm gonna
tell you about this small islandat the bottom of the Caribbean
and you're going to beinterested, as these characters
and the characters are so great.
And so I ended up just makinglike a one episode like history
(12:32):
podcast and not to get too deepinto the details, but there's a
podcast at NPR calledThroughline which, if you're
into history podcasts, youshould definitely listen to
Throughline, because Ramtin andRunt, who are the hosts, they
have a similar kind of take on.
You know, like their familiesare from other places in the
world, you know not Americanplaces in the world, and they
(12:55):
look at history through the lensof, like, what are the stories
that we can tell that aredifferent than how we tell the
story in the US?
And so I kind of went to themand was like, hey, I think you
guys should do a thing on the USinvasion of Grenada.
Like Americans might know thatit happened but they don't know
the story about it.
Like it would be interesting tokind of tell it from the
perspective of, like what washappening in Grenada before the
(13:15):
US showed up.
And so I did this like oneepisode history podcast with
them.
And I wanted to do that podcastbecause I thought it was a
really interesting story to telland it didn't have anything to
do with, like the bodies or muchof like the aftermath of
Bishop's death, but, but mostlyI wanted to use it as like a
proof of concept, right?
So when I came back to peopleat the post, I was like, well,
(13:38):
if you listen to this 45 minutepodcast, like you can hear just
a little flavor of some of thehistory and some of the like
shocking moments that we couldunpack if we really leaned into
this.
And so so there was that Iwrote a pitch memo, I wrote an
outline, I made like a faketrailer.
I mean, most of the tape inthis trailer like never saw the
light of day.
(13:58):
But but just because I likereally had to like dot my I's
and cross my T's to make thecase like I'm capable of doing
this, here's a plan, here's whatit would take.
And so they finally said yes,and then after that it was about
yeah, it was basically one yearof reporting and in that year I
(14:19):
think I made two trips toGrenada.
One was an actual work trip, onewas a like vacation to see my
parents where I was just doingwork stuff on the side, and that
year I was still doing my mainjob but then I'd have one to two
days a week to work on this.
So it was really hustling toget the reporting going.
So that was one year, and thenbasically the nine months after
(14:41):
that I had full time to work onthis, and then it was like we're
writing scripts, we'rerecording narration, we're
making drafts and um, and sothat that last nine months was
the, was the real, like rubberto the road you know, even as
we're writing scripts, peoplethat we're trying to get in
contact with for months andmonths, for over a year, like
are finally calling us back.
(15:02):
So then we have to go back andre-ord things because things are
changing now that we finallyheard from this witness and so
it was definitely exciting, butit was well, it was stress and
and, you know, I think we couldhave worked on it for a whole
nother year and found even moreand but at some point it was
like OK, we got a lot here andlike let's get it out, let's
(15:22):
give people an opportunity tolisten.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
I love that you are able to tell the story in this
way and I'm a history geek andthe fact that you're telling
this story in a way that so,from you know your pre-research,
it's about like what two years,two and a half give and take,
and even you, just talking about, you know the people you are
trying to reach.
(15:45):
One of my favorite parts was, Ithink, towards the end of the
series, you're trying to get intouch with this one person.
Y'all were looking through,scouring through phone books.
Y'all were asking the Jamaicanswho worked at the Washington
Post, do your mother, yourgrandmother, some auntie know
somebody?
And I was just like, yes, thisis how we do things Ask somebody
(16:07):
if they know somebody.
And he came through at the endand I was like they did it.
So it was a bit of a suspense inthat part as well, but it goes
to show the effort that it takesto tell these very Caribbean
stories in an American context.
Right, and I think where youlive in America, as a Caribbean
(16:29):
Americans, you're like but weknow this, why the world don't
know this?
So what were some of the thingsthat you uncovered or learned
about your culture or beingCaribbean and these things that
are important or known to yourparents and people of your
parents' generation or evenyounger folks, but it's not that
(16:49):
I don't want to say not thatimportant, but it's not top of
mind or front of mind for thosewho live in America and what you
learn about how that impactsCaribbean folks and telling
those stories or trying to getthose stories to be told, if
that makes sense.
Speaker 3 (17:05):
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, I think the trick withthis podcast and what I found
personally really challenging,was this feeling of like I know
there are going to be auntiesand uncles who are going to
listen to people like you, who,like know this history and this
is like a part of their culture.
We're going to listen to thispodcast because you know there
are so few, like from major newsoutlets, right, like there are
(17:27):
so few kind of like deep divestorytelling, especially into
the eastern caribbean.
I mean, I think there's like um, you know a certain way, that,
like haiti and the dominicanrepublic and cuba are covered,
but, like, once you get down tobarbados, grenada, trinidad, um,
uh, dominica, um, I think youdon't see that type of coverage
from mainstream news outlets.
So it was like both trying tospeak to an audience of
(17:49):
Caribbean people and alsospeaking to an audience of
Americans who, again, like thereare people who are going to
listen, who are like Granada,like I thought that was a place
in Spain, and like having togive a dumbed down version
without making it feel likewe're like speaking down to
people or recognizing that it'sgoing to be a diverse audience
(18:10):
hearing this.
But I mean the thing that Ifound so powerful about just
imagining this time in historyis that there's such a kind of
US cultural imagination aboutthe Caribbean.
That's all about like chillvibes, right, you go to the
Caribbean, you go to a resort,there's beautiful rum punch, you
like eat lots of things withcoconut in it, and you know
(18:32):
someone might be playing steelpan and it's great.
You know that it's all verylike tranquil and relaxing and
everything's on island time andyou know, certainly like you can
go to any of these islands andobviously, like there is an
aspect of that and I thinkthat's something to be proud of
too.
Right, it's a place wherepeople love pleasure and love to
be with each other and slowingdown and I think that out there,
(18:53):
making Ronald Reagan mad andannoyed and Maurice Bishop is
(19:13):
living rent-free in RonaldReagan's head and to hear what
it was like in Grenada at thistime, where there is a Soviet
embassy and the Soviets arehobnobbing with the North
Koreans, and then there areEuropeans who are there and they
might be spies, everyone iswondering like who's a spy for
everyone else?
And it's like this you know,what you could describe as a
(19:36):
small place is this epicenterfor so much geopolitical high
stakes negotiations and, likeeveryone here, has this
connection to something biggerin the world, and I think that's
what I was excited to tell that, like this is a part of the
world that is important and has,like this, rich political and
(20:01):
cultural history, and like stuffthat was going on there was
intense and it was, you know,really difficult at times and
obviously really scary at times,but that this time was
important and that the peoplewho are at the center of this
were important people, and Ifeel like that's a lot of what I
wanted to get across.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
Yes, beautifully said .
It was a lot ofmisunderstanding like who are
these people, why?
Why should I care?
But you were able to tell it ina way that I appreciated
because it was through adifferent lens, because, again,
we think of all the ways thatwe've gotten the message or the
story about Grenada, mauriceBishop and even before him, his
(20:44):
coup with Gary and all theseother things.
It was like telling a fullerpicture.
Speaker 3 (20:51):
Because and not to cut you off, but because, yeah,
like, even for people who theAmericans that I find, who know
about the US invasion of Grenada, they still think of it like,
even if they're on the side of Ithink, that the invasion was
the wrong thing for the US to do.
A lot of times it's rooted inthis idea of like, but you know
why did we even show up to thistiny island anyways?
This was so silly and I thoughtat the time like what a waste
(21:13):
of time and resources andAmerican lives to invade this
place that is, you know, thesize of Atlanta.
It's just understanding of thathistory that's not rooted in
what was actually happeningthere and how it felt to be on
the receiving end of that.
But sorry, continue with yourquestion.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
No, exactly that right.
Because again, everything feelsvery distant and it was very
real to the people who livethere, the people in the region,
like all the other Caribbeancountries who came in and to be
part of the investigativeprocess.
I thought that was somethingnew that I learned.
(21:49):
I didn't realize that therewere all these other Caribbean
countries that were part of theinvestigative process and it was
just like wow.
But for me it was the storiesfrom the widows and the children
that was the most impactful,what they remembered, what they
they remember the day veryclearly, you know, cause it's
(22:12):
like it is forever etched,frozen in time in their minds
about what that day was, whatthey were doing.
And I just really appreciatedthe telling of the story.
You know, I felt like thespeech.
Again, we know lots of peopledon't really care for Maurice
(22:32):
Bishop, but I think giving thebroader picture and not being
biased in the telling of thestory, as as in making Maurice
too much of a hero, kind oftelling both sides again love
the story, love the charactersin the story and even you
sharing some of the angst, Iguess, about getting the data or
(22:57):
the information you needed tocomplete the story.
So I kind of felt that you feltsome responsibility in, like I
need to tell this story.
I don't want my mother and myfather to be ashamed of me.
Speaker 3 (23:11):
Yeah, yeah, that's a real honestly yes.
Well, and cause it felt like Imean not to say that other
people can come in uh later andlike make even more progress.
And I still think that there'slike more to uncover and and and
we're still trying to getdocuments and and um and get
more people to talk to us.
But it's like to me it felt alittle bit like this is kind of
(23:32):
one of the last shots to get aclearer picture of this because,
especially, it's been 40 yearsnow and so, like, a lot of
people have died since then.
You know, it's like right aroundthe mark where people who are
in the military if they're like25, 26, 27,.
You know those people are inthe military.
If they're like 25, 26, 27,.
You know those people are intheir late 60s and so that's.
You know they're still youngenough to have really good
(23:53):
memories and to be able to talkreally fully about what happened
there.
But, like, once you get tofolks in their 70s, 80s, like it
gets a little harder.
And so, yeah, if you're hearingangst in there, it's the angst
of feeling that you know theWashington Post is not going to
send another reporter to go likedo more of this again and
(24:14):
really wanting to get as manyanswers as we could with the
opportunity that we had here,and I think we did get like a
lot of pretty good answers.
So I think that there is stillmore to tell of the story.
I do agree.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
And so, as we kind of wrap up, I mean, now that
you've done this, what are yourhopes or what do you think the
opportunity exists for morestories like this, maybe not
from a major news outlet likethe Washington Post, but telling
of Caribbean histories orCaribbean stories in a way that
(24:48):
a mostly American audience canappreciate or learn about the
history of this region, which isso complex, which you know, you
and I know, is.
It was the first little testtube of a lot of things that we
now experience in the world.
So I'd love to get yourperspective on, now that you've
(25:09):
done this project, where elsecan you think it'll go, and the
opportunities for Caribbeanstories and podcasters to tell
more stories.
Speaker 3 (25:19):
Yeah, that's a really good question.
I mean, specifically with thismystery and with Grenada, one of
the big closed doors that wehad that one hopes will open
soon is there's a lot ofclassified documents that the
State Department has about theUS invasion of Grenada that are
currently quote unquote underdeclassification review.
(25:39):
So 40 years is about the periodof time that a lot of these
federal records are supposed tobe made public.
But they still have to gothrough them to make sure that
there's like nothing that wouldstill affect the US's
relationships with other placesor whatever, and so I think,
once some of those documentsbecome public, I have some
optimism that there might benuggets in there that can close
(26:01):
some of these gaps.
You'll also hear when you listento the podcast.
There's one or two people, oneperson in particular, who I'd
really love to get him to agreeto an interview, and he's told
me many a time at this pointthat he doesn't want to be
interviewed about this, but Iremain optimistic that maybe in
the future he'll be open totalking about his time in
(26:22):
Grenada and what that meant.
So there's some of that stuff.
But I think to your point morebroadly, there's so many stories
in the Caribbean that I thinkare, yeah, just ripe for the
telling.
I mean one that comes to mindJamaica, and I think many of
your listeners either might haveread, or be familiar with, a
(26:44):
Brief History of Seven Killingsby Marlon James, which I believe
they're making into, I think, aNetflix series, or at least
like a TV series.
Speaker 2 (26:52):
Listen, it was supposedly bought by HBO.
I cannot remember her name, butthe woman who did Insecure I
can't I'll butcher her name IssaRae, not Issa, but the woman
Malatakis I cannot remember hername was was associated with it
at this one point, so I don'tknow where it is now.
So it's it's supposed to havesome film rights but it's not
(27:17):
there.
But I agree that book was.
Speaker 3 (27:21):
Yeah, yeah.
And when you talk about therole of, you know, the US
clandestine services in Jamaicaat that time it was, you know,
and like manly, and there's likethe political stuff, the spy
espionage stuff, the Bob Marleystuff.
I mean I think that that's apart of history that would be
like great to dive into more.
One thing that I've also beenthinking about more recently is,
(27:44):
you know, obviously Haiti is inthis like incredibly dire
moment right now with thesituation with gangs there and
this new peacekeeping forcethat's coming in, which includes
, is headed by Kenya, but Ibelieve will also include Bajans
, Bahamians and I thinkJamaicans you might have to fact
(28:07):
check me on that part, I thinkJamaicans, you might have to
fact check me on that part.
But but the idea of Caribbeanpeacekeepers going into another
Caribbean country in, I think, avery fraught and complicated
moment, like some of it, bringsa little Grenada like to me and
what it means for you know, likethe military of one Caribbean
country to go into another.
But also I just think thatthat's a that's a story that is,
(28:29):
at least to an Americanaudience, is being told with
American voices in many ways,and I just feel like there's so
much more that needs to be doneand reported.
That brings in more of thattexture of like what it feels
like for Haitians to be goingthrough this and what it feels
like for Haitian Americans andhow fraught and complicated this
(28:51):
all is.
And, like my uncle, my husbandis Haitian and I love him dearly
and he's just such a like fun,interesting, vibrant, funny
person and I feel like that'ssuch the quality of Haitians
generally and is the quality of,like Caribbean people in
(29:12):
general, right Like.
This is a place of that textureof of how you know, like what
it means to be Haitian and howproud Haitians are of where they
(29:34):
come from.
Even though this is a really,really difficult and frightening
moment, and I yeah, I justthink that there's a lot to do
on that.
I don't know if I'll be the oneto do it, but I would encourage
other people to to really liketake a stab at that I definitely
like that.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
you brought up the point of Jamaica.
So just quick sidebar you know,when I moved here to this
country in like 93, like upuntil that point I mean, I was
too young to participate inpolitics.
But even though I couldn'tparticipate, you experienced
politics, right?
So in Jamaica around electiontime, you know you didn't wear
(30:13):
certain colors.
You know there were certainthings that you experienced and
one of the things, when Istarted studying American
politics and I came here, I waslike, oh, I don't have to be
scared of you know theseconversations about Democrats or
Republicans, right, this issuch a different approach than
when you're in Jamaica.
(30:33):
You live in specific communitiesthat are particular political
party and I think for me whenand January 6th happened and
everything leading up to that,it was very frightening to me
because I saw a point where Iwas I'm over 40.
So there's a point where growingup in Jamaica, where politics
(30:55):
could get very violent, that'swhat this brings up for me, this
anxiety because I can, I knowwhere that can go and seeing
this play out, I'm like, oh,this feels very reminiscent.
I remember there was when I wasvery young there they had a
(31:16):
campaign about wearing blue andthey had this PSA song.
All we are saying is give peacea chance, because they didn't
want political violence, didn'twant political violence.
And to see that play outJanuary 6th and you know all the
all the things that arehappening feels gives me that
(31:37):
level of anxiety, because I'veseen the threads of this.
This is, yes, yeah, in, in inJamaican politics in the
eighties.
So so, so that's so.
It's interesting that you saythat, because we have these
different perspectives, livingoutside the country and now
living here and seeing how thecountry's now changed and
juxtaposed to where ourcountries are now moving to and
(32:00):
the US is moving away from whatwe were trying, it's just very
interesting.
Speaker 3 (32:04):
So yeah, no, I think that's a really important point
and I mean just to just toquickly mention I don't know if
it's OK for us to say like whenwe're recording this, but you
know, we're recording this onwhat?
Friday, may 31st, which is aday after Trump was just
convicted and this hush moneytrial in New York, which is what
I actually now cover, like nowthat I'm back on Daily News.
(32:26):
But I saw this meme thatsomeone posted yesterday that I
thought was really insightful,that it just showed a map of the
Americas and it's like NorthAmerica and South America and
the Caribbean, and like theseare all the places where heads
of state or heads of governmenthave been convicted of a crime,
either before or after they'reelected, and like now you add
(32:47):
the us to that, and I just Ithink that there's been a lot of
the narrative of like oh, thisis historic, that america has
never seen a former presidentcharged with a crime, and that's
true.
But actually, like in thescheme of the world and in the
scheme of this part of the world, it's actually not that unusual
.
And to think about how thesethings can kind of escalate and
(33:08):
play out, and like even I washaving a conversation with one
of the other producers who workson this podcast yesterday where
we're like well, what happensif Trump is put on house arrest
during that campaign?
But what if his supporters wentto his house to try to free him
from house arrest?
Which is like kind of whathappened with Maurice Bishop,
right, that he was on housearrest and people thought that
(33:28):
it was unjust and they tried tofree him, and the circumstances
are hugely different in both ofthese cases.
But that's just all to say that.
I think there is a little bitof an American bias against
thinking that like, oh, the UScan go in that direction, right,
that it's like, well, we'reAmericans, we solve things a
(33:50):
different way and in these likesmall chaotic countries and
Latin American in the Caribbean,they do things a different way.
But like, we're exceptional andwe're not exceptional, and I
think for a lot of people,january 6th was a wake up call
to that.
But I think even now it's,without being too like
pessimistic or alarmist, I dothink it's insightful to
(34:12):
understand well, this is howthings escalate in other
countries and it's not outsidethe realm of possibility that we
could see a future escalationhere in the US, whatever this
looks like.
But not to say that I want thatto happen.
Speaker 2 (34:27):
No, and that's exactly it.
We don't want it to happen.
But you have a generation ofCaribbean folks like my mom and
everyone is just like Lord Jesus.
What is going on?
Like they're very like oh, soum, but this is for another
podcast, but I I do appreciateum you being on the podcast,
truly enjoyed the conversation.
(34:47):
Big up to all the Jamaicans atWashington Post who pitched in
on the investigative.
Speaker 3 (34:55):
Many grandmas were asked if they knew an Earl Brown
.
It was yeah, it was funny tosend out that message because we
have like a Black People Slackchannel at work and I was like,
okay, listen up, black peopleLike among you I'm sure there
are Jamaicans please, everyone,raise your hand and then you
have to commit to uh, yes,calling your family members and
I felt you, you're like when shesaid, when you said Earl Brown,
(35:17):
I said, boy, that feel likeevery other Jamaican, every two
Jamaican men with that name yes,my last name is Brown I'm like,
I don't know not to go down.
Speaker 2 (35:27):
So it was in those moments where you're just like.
I mean, culture is life.
You know, even in these seriousmoments they find some way to
bring some levity into thesethings and it's a really great
series and thank you again forhoping to spearhead this and
bring this again, for helping tospearhead this and bring this.
(35:50):
You know, so a new generationof Caribbean Americans, children
born here to Caribbean parents,can understand a part of their
history and culture.
And so the Empty Grave ofComrade Bishop is available on
all podcast platforms.
I'll include that link in theshow notes.
And, martine, any final wordswhere people could find you all
that good stuff.
Speaker 3 (36:09):
I just, yeah, just listen to the podcast.
The podcast that I do for myactual job post reports.
That's a daily show, socertainly subscribe to that too.
And yeah, other than that, Itry not to.
I used to be on Instagram andTwitter and went on to try to be
less on that because it's justlike ruining my life.
So so, yeah, just listen.
(36:31):
And, and if you want to reachout my, my email is always open
martinepowers at washpostcom.
So, thank you so much forhaving me.
Speaker 2 (36:39):
Thank you and, as I love to say at the end of every
episode walk good.
Speaker 3 (36:44):
I love that.
Speaker 1 (36:45):
Yeah, good, I love that.
Yeah, thanks for tuning in toStrictly Facts.
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