February 5, 2025 • 42 mins
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Journey through Black history and Caribbean connections, revealing the incredible legacy of Black missionaries in the British and Dutch Guianas. Dr. Briana Royster joins us to discuss how the African Methodist Episcopal Church and the National Baptist Convention played pivotal roles in connecting African American and Afro-Guyanese communities during the 19th and 20th centuries, connecting diasporic communities across the Atlantic and illuminating the intertwined stories of migration, race, and empowerment that span the Caribbean and the Americas. This episode sheds light on the shared struggles and cultural nuances, Black internationalism through religion, and how even Garveyism found contrasting receptions across lines of faith..
Turning our focus to the influential role of Afro-Guyanese women, we highlight the contributions of figures like Mrs. Dorothy Morris and Mrs. Constance Luckie. These trailblazers leveraged mutual aid networks and navigated church bureaucracy to secure vital community resources. We discuss the importance of oral history and personal archives and the often-overlooked influence of religion on global Black solidarity and social justice. Join us as we celebrate these unsung heroes and reflect on the enduring power of faith to unite and uplift Black communities worldwide.
Briana Adline Royster is an Assistant Professor in the Department of Gender and Race Studies at The University of Alabama. She received her PhD in History from New York University with concentrations in African Diaspora history and Latin American and Caribbean history. Her research interests center the histories of Black women primarily in the United States and the Caribbean during the first half of the twentieth century. Follow Dr. Royster on X.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Strictly Facts, a guide to Caribbean
history and culture, hosted byme, alexandria Miller.
Strictly Facts teaches thehistory, politics and activism
of the Caribbean and connectsthese themes to contemporary
music and popular culture.
Wanton people class is back insession with a big celebration
(00:24):
today Happy 100th episode ofStrictly Facts, a guide to
Caribbean history and culture.
What better way to kick offFebruary, with it being Black
History Month, reggae Month andso much more with another
podcast milestone?
And so our episode today is, ofcourse, celebrating Black
history as we trot through thediasporic connections in the
(00:45):
British and Dutch Guianas whatis present-day Guyana and
Suriname to discuss nation power, community building throughout
the 19th and 20th centuries,especially in terms of
missionary work.
And so we won't be taking thisjourney alone, of course, and I
am extremely grateful to have DrBrianna Royster joining us
(01:05):
today, and she is the assistantprofessor in the Department of
Gender and Race Studies at theUniversity of Alabama, and so
again, dr Royster, reallygrateful to have you on the show
.
Why don't you begin withtelling our listeners a little
bit more about yourself, yourconnection to the Caribbean, if
any, and what inspired yourinterest in Black history,
(01:26):
empire religion and Blackinternationalism?
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Sure, alexandria.
First, thank you so much forhaving me here.
I am absolutely honored andthrilled to be here to speak
with you today.
I personally don't have adirect ancestral connection to
the Caribbean as far as I know,like a direct ancestral
connection to the Caribbean asfar as I know.
Some of I think my earliestinterest in history specifically
(01:49):
Black women's history, but alsostories of migration come from
my grandmother right.
So my grandmother always tellsme stories.
When I was little and I thinkone of the stories about my
ancestors that has always stoodout to me was the story of my
fourth great grandmother who wasenslaved in Tennessee and
following emancipation she leftTennessee following a massacre
(02:13):
and according to my grandmothershe did that on foot.
So she walked from Tennessee toAlabama over a period of time
and I think that really sparkedmy interest in stories of
migration.
But also in college I was partof a service learning group
right a study abroad coursewhere we spent time in the DR,
(02:34):
specifically on the batays andyou know, just kind of doing
whatever they asked us to do.
So a lot of that time Iactually spent shelling peas,
which also made me think aboutdiasporic connections, because I
also grew up shelling peas asmy grandparents' farm right, but
also we also went to Dahabon onmarket day and watching the
(02:56):
experiences of Haitians tryingto cross the border to sell
their goods right.
The violence with which theywere met while crossing over, I
think, more directly sparked myinterest in stories of migration
and women and the Caribbeanmore specifically.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
I'm always fascinated to learn how people got
introduced to their work, or youknow what were some of the
early catalysts, because I think, especially when you're doing
research and doing these biggerprojects, it can be you know
you're in such a zone thatsometimes you forget what really
sparked.
You know those early beginnings, so thank you so much for
sharing.
I really want to kick us offwith us having this conversation
(03:38):
about missionary work in a veryintentional way, At least, you
know, in my experiences oflearning Caribbean history and
history broadly, missionariesand missionary work are often
pitted in a particular way and,you know, specifically
acknowledging the harms done atthe hands of, usually foreign,
white religious groups,christian groups usually and I'm
(04:00):
not, you know, discountingthose things and the truths of
those statements or thoseexperiences.
We, you know, discounting thosethings and the truths of those
statements or those experiences.
We've, you know, certainlydiscussed several throughout the
show.
I can think of one episode inparticular where we talked about
sign language and the ways thatyou know, white Christian
missionaries were coming to theCaribbean and sort of really
(04:21):
negatively impacting the localCaribbean sign languages that
were already introduced, right,but I think the interesting part
for me about your work is itkind of, you know, shifts some
of that on its head, especiallywhen it comes to talking about
race, and so the subjects inyour research helped to really
complicate this during a periodof, you know, massive Black
(04:44):
liberation movements over thecourse of, you know, like over a
century really.
And ultimately, your researchexplores Black missionaries from
the African Methodist EpiscopalChurch and the National Baptist
Convention and the work thatthey carried out in the Guianas.
However, you know really seeingits Black majority in the area
(05:05):
as a place of empowerment, asopposed to the US where Black
people were seen as the minority, and so could you help us, you
know, just frame what'shappening in the world at this
time, both within the context ofthe US, of the Caribbean, of
the Guianas, and also you knowwhat's going on in AMEC and the
(05:26):
National Black Convention aswell.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
Sure, so I'm going to start at the very beginning of
my project, which is actuallyoccurs before the missionaries
arrive, and that is 1840, right,so 1838, 1840, when Black
people are immigrating to Guyana.
And it's during that period oftime, where emancipation has not
occurred yet in the US, whereBlack people in the US
(05:52):
absolutely see Guyana as a placeof hope, right, really, the
British Caribbean right as aplace of hope and with the ways
that they are engaging in that.
Now I will say they do notalways engage with the realities
of what is happening on theground, right, once people are
emancipated in Guyana, but it isstill a place of hope, right,
(06:15):
all of these Black people whoare freed, right, it offers a
vision of what the US can be forthem, and some of those people
who immigrate in 1840 stay anddevelop connections there.
But they also continue to writeback home, and quite a few of
them are from Baltimore, right,and they are writing back home
to people who are specificallyinvolved with the AME church,
(06:40):
and that is one of the ways thatthe mission work is kind of
connected through time, eventhough the mission work hasn't
been done in 1840.
And so when the missions began,some of the earlier missions
began with the British MethodistEpiscopal Church in the 1870s,
who eventually they will combinewith AME Church and the AME
(07:03):
Church kind of takes over themission.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
Before we get too deep into talking about the
actual mission work.
I did definitely want tounderscore and ensure that our
listeners know about the AMEChurch.
You know the importance forthem at this moment for Black
people in the US, so could yousort of allow our listeners you
know a lay of the land a littlebit and to understand what these
(07:29):
two organizations really meantin terms of Black collective
religion, black organizing, etc.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
Sure.
So the AME, african MethodistEpiscopal Church and the NBC,
the National Baptist ConventionIncorporated USA are the two
denominations that I look at andduring the time that I am
looking at them the late 19th,early 20th century they are two
of the largest organizations forAfrican Americans right Black
(07:59):
people in, specifically in theUS.
It is where you will find notall right, but a lot of cultural
work happening, a lot ofpolitical work happening.
The AME at the time that I'mstudying they have long, long
been an organization and myproject begins.
They are the largest religiousdenomination of black people in
(08:22):
the US.
The National Baptist Conventionbegan fully in name, a bit later
, so not until the 1890s, rightwhen, you like, truly, truly,
truly have a fully formed NBC,although they exist as kind of
smaller independent churches, ifyou will, prior to then,
(08:47):
independent churches, if youwill prior to then, and so
eventually, actually across thetime of my project, you will
eventually have more Blackpeople in the NBC than the AME,
but you're still talking likemillions of Black people at this
time point who are involved,and so using their archives
becomes greatly important forthe work, because it truly is a
hub for so much work, whether itis cultural, social, even
(09:10):
political, religious, a lot ofthat work done, being done
through the church in the late19th century, early 20th century
, when this project really,really, really begins.
And so what is happening inGuyana?
Actually, there are a lot ofissues going on with labor at
(09:33):
the time In the US.
The US is kind of dealing withthe backlash, if you will right,
of reconstruction.
They are dealing with highlyoppressive regimes, right
honestly, in both areas, and Idon't think people in the US
(09:53):
always necessarily appreciatewhat is going on on the ground
in Guyana beforehand, right.
But I will say, what happensover time is that, following
emancipation in the US AfricanAmericans, they begin to think
of other people in the world inneed of their help.
Right, specifically Blackpeople.
I believe there's a genuinecare right for their Black
(10:18):
brothers and sisters across theworld and they're saying how can
we help while also spreadingChrist?
Right, those are their goals.
I think things become a bit of aparadox when you talk about US
imperialism combined with whatit is that they are doing, which
they are not ignorant of.
And so it's interesting becauseat times I will read where they
(10:44):
will talk about those involvedin foreign mission work will say
that they are using thecoattails of American
imperialism to help black peoplein the world.
Like that is actually a directquote.
Right, that they're using thecoattails of the US imperialism
to help other black people inthe world and to spread the word
.
Right.
But there are also times and Iknow we'll talk a little bit
(11:08):
more about the women later on,but there are writings from some
of the women in the US who areactually calling for an end to
foreign entanglements of the USwhile also continuing in foreign
mission work, which they see asa kind of care work right.
That's kind of what's kind ofhappening right in this world,
(11:30):
as these missions are reallystarting out in the late 1800s,
early 1900s, so my project onlygoes through like 1945 or so.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
I think that is a story that's definitely not told
, in a way, right.
I think at least you know someof my experiences learning US
history.
It is very US history based andnobody else matters.
We're exploring today, ofcourse, and as we've done in the
(12:15):
past, that's not the case,especially when you're coming
from you know a moremarginalized status and
recognizing the other thingsthat are going on in the world
Right.
Even Haiti comes out in yourproject and you know this
understanding of.
Haiti is being, you know, sortof like a Mecca in a way Right.
Sort of like a Mecca in a wayright, that they were able to
liberate themselves so manydecades in advance of everybody
else pretty much, more or less,at least you know, over on this
side of the world, and do so ina way that you know is, I think
(12:40):
you know, could be attributed toinspiration right, inspiration
that you know communities Blackto inspiration, right,
inspiration that you knowcommunities Black people in the
US particularly, are drawing onand looking for hope in other
places and trying to understandwhat to do right, and so I was
just gonna say and, if I may, Iwant to be very clear that these
(13:01):
Black missionaries will sayexplicitly that they do not
believe White missionaries cansay explicitly that they do not
believe white missionaries cando this kind of work with black
people in the same way, right,like they are very explicit
about that in their personalletters.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
So they do think that there's a difference in what
they are doing with what blackmissionaries are doing.
I also want to add that theyalso recognize difference, right
, so there is absolutely AfricanAmerican exceptionalism
happening here.
But they do recognizedifference in communities, right
(13:39):
, while also wanting to beattached.
But they also recognize theimportance of people who are
from the area, right, and so,while I work on missionaries and
those involved for missions inthe A&E and the NDC, maybe 80%
of the missionaries that I studyare actually from Guyana, right
(14:00):
, and so only a small amount arefrom the US.
But what happens is that theywill use missionaries who are
born in Guyana and many of themwere educated in the US, right,
so they may have come to an HBCUin the US, became affiliated
with the AME church, and thenthey're sent back to Guyana or
Suriname and work as asmissionaries and work for the
(14:21):
church.
Guyana or Suriname and work asmissionaries and work for the
church.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
I think that brings us to a really interesting point
, as we sort of contextualizediasporic unity in the way that
community builds right, at leastyou know, I think.
Sometimes we tend to talk aboutyou know Harlem as being one of
those places where you knowBlack people from across the
world come together especiallyyou know we're talking the 1920s
(14:47):
Harlem Renaissance period andwe don't necessarily always
think about, you know,decentralizing the US from that
perspective and you know otherways that the very same things
could have been happening, maybein smaller pockets or whatever,
but throughout the world.
And so could you speak a littlebit more to you know this idea
(15:09):
of these diasporic connectionsreally allowing for a different
sort of understanding ofBlackness outside of the US.
As you know, people in Guyana,people in Suriname and then
these black missionaries fromthe US also coming together, I
think, for one, it's actuallyquite educational for people in
(15:32):
the US, right?
Speaker 2 (15:34):
So, while the AME and , honestly, the NBC too, they
have foreign missions all overthe world, they have their own
periodicals over the world.
They have their own periodicalsthat are directly related to
missionary work.
They also will post lettersfrom the missionaries from where
(15:57):
they are, and so there are,like your, regular lay people in
the church in the US who arelearning about Guyana through
writings from missionaries,right, there are also times
where the missionary's children,right, are also writing very,
very, very short letters thatare also at times, being
published, right, pictures arebeing published in the
periodicals, and you havewritings from people in the US
(16:21):
who are then more interested indaily life for people in Guyana,
which also leads to additionaldonations, right, once they feel
like they know someone, if youwill, in these missions.
And so one thing I think thatit does for the people in the US
(16:42):
is it gives Black Americans,like, a greater sense of
connection, right, other ways tosee different parts of the
world that are not necessarilyclouded by a view from, like,
the US government, if you will,right, so they are able to see,
(17:05):
read and learn about people inGuyana, what is going on with
the churches, specifically inGuyana, and the work that
they're doing, and then there's,like, some of the work that
happens behind the scenes withthe women, and there's also a
sense of share oppression, right, and so, while they, people in
(17:26):
the US, know and understand whatthey are going through, I think
to also see what is happeningin Guyana and some of the
oppression that Black people areexperiencing in Guyana also,
like, adds to this sense of likewe are connected, right, how do
we help?
Right, how do we help andsupport each other?
That this fight isn't just afight about um jim crow in the
(17:50):
us, right, this is a globalfight.
Like, how do we assist in thatum?
But also, like, how do we havethese conversations with each
other about, like, what we aregoing to do globally, right, so,
so during this time they areabsolutely in the early 20th
century like using the termuplift, right, so how do we
(18:11):
uplift each other?
And what does that uplift looklike in Guyana?
In ways that may or may not bedifferent than ideas of uplift
in the US, right, but I think insome, what it does is that it
increases feelings of diasporicconnections.
Speaker 1 (18:30):
From here I want us to you know, move through,
talking about the shifts thathappen in their, the sort of
understanding of what'shappening in Guyana, right, and
so you mentioned earlier thissort of impression of these
Black missionaries coming in andbeing like, oh, it's a safe
(18:50):
haven, Right, Black majority, etcetera, and then them actually
getting there and being on theground and being like, oh, you
know, like what is the actualreality of the situation?
And so how does being on theground actually, you know,
demonstrate this difference intheir viewpoints, or you know
(19:11):
the evolution of theirviewpoints and really you know
concepts of imperialism, ofnationalism, and even how they
can lead to division within theBlack diaspora.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
Right.
I think one piece of that isthis kind of African-American
exceptionalism piece right.
That absolutely leads todivision.
There are things and ways inwhich they see the world, things
that they prioritize right.
That people in Guyana it isn'tthat they don't always think of
(19:43):
uplift in the same way, althoughsometimes they don't always
think of uplift in the same way,although sometimes they don't
it is that people in the US feelthat they should have more
control over what's happening,right, Whereas people who are
actually in the churches inGuyana in some ways they
absolutely not right Like theseare our churches.
Like, yes, we understand we areaffiliated with you, but these
(20:04):
are our churches.
And so sometimes you seedivision happen in that way.
But in other ways, I think whenwe're talking about what this
idea of hope Black majorityversus what they see and hear
about when they're actually onthe ground In some of the
(20:28):
writings, you see that it's alittle bit startling to them.
But I also think that is partof the reason why having
ministers affiliated withmission work, who were born in
Guyana, becomes so valuable andimportant right, because they
are actually familiar with whatis happening on the ground.
(20:48):
They're familiar with thestructures that they are going
to have to come up against right.
They are familiar with thepeople.
Even if they've been away for afew years, their families have
still been there and theyactually become a great resource
for AME administration in theUS, but also for the Guyanese
people in their churches.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
Certainly Do you spend some time with us just
like explaining what thesenetworks look like, how they
were formed.
I think there are a lot ofinteresting points that come out
through your work, like theimportance of education.
You know these sort ofhierarchical perspectives, the
role of women in this moment andhow those in the Guyanas are
(21:32):
feeling really supported orempowered through this mission
work.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
So I really love talking about the women.
One area I think of differencethat I think is very clear in
writings when it comes to peoplein the US and the AME church
and people in Guyana who areinvolved in the AME church is
Garveyism.
So in the US, the AME church,like, they write privately,
(22:00):
essentially saying they wantnothing to do with it, whereas
some people are familiar withthe fact that Garveyism was
popular in Guyana.
And so on the ground, peoplewho are involved in AME churches
, also going to UNIA meetingsright, they are also going to
hear like Garveyite speak.
(22:20):
And I think one of my moreentertaining archival finds are
from two people who are membersof the AME church and they go to
a UNIA meeting and they're notaware that they're going to see
each other and so they'rewriting in personal
correspondence and they're notsure if they are both actually
(22:42):
people who are interested inGarveyism or if one of them is
an AME spy, if you will, tryingto figure out who was showing up
to these meetings, right, it'samusing to see those letters in
the archive.
But I think that is alsoanother area where, going to
your previous question, wherethere's an absolute split
between what's happening on theground in Guyana and the
(23:03):
interest and needs of people inGuyana versus Black people in
the US, affiliated with thechurch, right, how their
interests divert in particularways Getting back to, like, the
women and the networks.
A lot of the networks areconnected through different
auxiliaries, right.
And so first I want want to say, before I begin even speaking
(23:26):
about these networks, is thatAfro-Guyanese people have had
mutual aid organizations for avery long time.
When my work begins in 1840,looking at immigration, right,
afro-guyanese people alreadyhave mutual aid organizations
set up on the ground runninggood to go, right.
And so AME foreign missions arecoming into a world that is
(23:51):
already doing, right, a lot ofthis work, just without the
religious bent at times, right,but they're already, like, very
well organized in Guyana.
But basically a lot of thenetwork specifically through the
women happens through women'sauxiliaries, and so in the AME
Church that's the Women's ParentLife Missionaries Society and
(24:13):
the Women's Home and ForeignMissions Society.
So initially a lot of theconnections that you see are
happening between the wives ofpastors, the wives of bishops,
in the church and through thesecretary treasurer of foreign
missions who at the time that Iam writing, is always a man, and
(24:33):
so initially the correspondencegoes through the secretary
treasurer of foreign missionsand the presiding elder and
eventually the women'sauxiliaries understand, like
they know, they begin to knowthe wives of the ministers in
Guyana, and then you begin tosee more letters going directly
between them, right At timeswithout their husbands or
(24:57):
without the secretary treasurerfor admissions in the US even
realizing what is happening.
Right?
So the women's auxiliaries areraising a lot of money.
The youth department for theA&E at one time actually takes
over paying all the salaries forthe teachers who are affiliated
(25:18):
with schools that are thenaffiliated with the churches.
Right, and so the women hold alot of the purse strings in the
US.
And because some of theircorrespondence goes through the
secretary treasurer, right, attimes he will deny things in
Guyana and the women will thenbypass him right and write
(25:42):
directly to the auxiliaries inthe US to say this is what we
need and why, and then they willreceive whatever it is they
need.
And at times people in Guyanamay bypass the
Secretary-Treasurer forEmissions and go directly to,
like, the president of one ofthe auxiliaries.
That president will at timessend something directly back to
(26:04):
that woman, but at times thepresident will also send a
letter to the secretarytreasurer for admonishing him,
right, for not sending whateverit is, and then at times also
saying I am giving you this togive to this person and I want
you to know that I am alsosending a letter to this woman
in Guyana to let her know thatyou're going to be sending this
(26:26):
right.
And so those are some of theways that different connections
form and also grow.
And then you have the women inGuyana who are also doing a lot
of work in the community andreaching out to the women's
auxiliaries in the US for help.
But the women in Guyana arealso, if I can be, more relaxed
(26:50):
in speech, right, like they arestaying on the men's necks in
the US, right, and so they arewriting letters.
And I think two of the womenwho I really appreciate in my
work one is Mrs Dorothy Morris,who actually becomes an ordained
deacon in the church.
She's towards the end of mywork and then a little bit
(27:13):
earlier, is a Mrs ConstanceLucky.
And Mrs Lucky is the wife of aminister.
Her minister passes away fairly, I'll say, maybe in the middle
of my project, but she continuesdoing the work of the church,
specifically advocating forwomen and children in Georgetown
(27:33):
.
And so when the Secretary forAdmissions in the US isn't
necessarily doing what he haspromised to do, she continues to
write letters.
Right, she will remind him.
You made me this promise ofthis and I expect this thing to
then happen.
Right, and if it doesn't arriveon time, she sends another
letter.
Right, she sends a letter tothe Women's Auxies at times when
(27:56):
she does receive what she'sasked for and it is late.
Right, she will send a messagesaying thank you.
However, right, we weresupposed to receive Christmas
money, for example, in December,which we greatly appreciate
this money.
Maybe next year you should sendit before Christmas, right?
(28:16):
So, like, I love reading thoseinteractions where these women
are advocating for the people intheir communities and actually
holding some of these menaccountable, saying these are
things that you have promised me, my people and my organizations
.
That's just how some of thenetworks form, what some of the
(28:37):
networks look like On the USside.
They are also and I think it'snot surprising, given the time
period that the women'sauxiliaries are largely
responsible for the funding ofwomen's and children's events.
Right, if you will, in Guyana,and this also pertains to
(28:59):
education at times.
So they will pay for women'seducation, whether that be in
some of the secondary educationschools in Guyana, or whether
that is like a woman coming toreceive college education at
Wilberforce or at Tuskegee, forexample.
(29:19):
Or sometimes it is the wives ofministers in Guyana coming to
the US for a conference, rightthose kinds of things right.
Women's auxiliaries in the USare also responsible for that,
and you'll see correspondencehappening amongst these women
for those needs as well.
Speaker 1 (29:40):
I always love these sort of like niche examples of
people and women, in this caseBlack women, standing on
business right For lack of abetter way to frame me and, just
, you know, being veryintentional about the work and,
I think, allowing us tounderstand that oftentimes we
don't see that there are morebridges than we even, you know,
(30:01):
really know about.
And that, I think, brings me toa really interesting point in
your project is that it iscemented in a lot of ways in
archival research and like a lotof archival research right,
which I think is, you know,there are different institutions
that I think hold theircorrespondences, their records
(30:25):
and things really well, and Ithink churches are one of those
institutions, and so could youtalk about what it was like to,
you know, have this, you know,massive wealth of resources to
go through, to pull from, andhow it really demonstrates the
importance of keeping ourarchives and our stories for
(30:45):
future generations.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
Oh sure.
So the majority of my archivescome from the AME Foreign
Missions Archives and that is atthe Schomburg Center in New
York.
It is greatly important becausethere are even times with those
records where you can tell theSecretary of Foreign Missions
(31:07):
may have kept somecorrespondence and then some is
missing.
But I think oral history isvery important, right, but as
far as like written things,right, if we don't keep these
things I would never know aboutsome of these women, right, the
president of these auxiliariesabsolutely show up in, like the
(31:28):
monthly or the quarterlymissionary periodicals.
I guess, like some of you, morelike average women who are part
of the auxiliaries or the womenwho are writing back and forth
from Guyana do not alwaysnecessarily show up in those
periodicals.
So a lot of what I have, forexample, when I'm talking about
Mrs Constance Lucky, a lot ofthat is from personal
(31:51):
correspondence that was savedbetween women, right, some of
that comes from the Secretary ofForeign Missions and what he
saved, but a lot of it isbecause other women affiliated
with the church saved thiscorrespondence and without that
the stories of these women, Idon't want to say, would be lost
, right, because again, I thinkoral history is largely
(32:14):
important and, I think, alsoright.
If we're just talking about MrsConstance Lucky in general,
right, her legacy in Georgetownin Guyana is solidified.
Right, her story I don't thinkwould be one that is surprising
to people in Guyana.
Right, she has a missionaryorganization named after her
(32:38):
present day in Guyana, right now.
Right.
But on the US side, right,there's not that knowledge of
the importance of her and thework that she has done.
And so, without some of thesewritings, some of these letters
being saved, we lose some of themore granular and everyday
organizing that was happening.
Right, we lose how women werethinking of different forms of
(33:00):
care.
We lose women's some of theirpolitical ideas about what was
happening in the church and howthey connect that politically to
some of the things that they'readvocating for in Guyana.
We lose that again.
On the flip side of in the US,similar things, similar
organizing, is also happening.
(33:21):
So I think it's hugelyimportant that we save documents
.
We have our own archives,whether that is in some place
like the Schomburg or whetherthat's just in churches.
Also, some of the sources thatI use just come directly from
churches Right, they come frommeeting minutes Right.
(33:41):
Some things also come fromobituaries Right In my family, I
think.
When I was little I didn'tunderstand like why are you
saving these obituaries?
Speaker 1 (33:52):
And I love that because that's something that
everybody does right and they'realways very pristine, like kept
well, I think that's one ofthose, those diasporic things
that we don't talk about enough,that it's like somebody's
auntie, somebody's grandmotherhas kept these um, these
obituaries, um these funeralprograms, it's.
Speaker 2 (34:14):
It's one of those things to me, but sorry to cut
you no, no, no, that's um, it'sso true, though right, and I
love that.
Um, like that is something thatwe share across the diaspora,
right, um, and, as I said, likeas a kid I didn't quite
understand it, but now, workingas a historian, I see how
important those are, right, like, not just for personal memories
(34:38):
, right, of this person, thisloved one, this person that
you've known, but for me, as ahistorian, they carry a wealth
of information that I may notfind out anywhere else, right,
and so they allow me to buildconnections and to gain more
insight into this person's life.
And then also, it sends me offin different directions to dig
(34:58):
for other things.
Right and so developing.
Holding on to our own archives Ithink it's just so important.
But also, when I think aboutarchives, I also think about the
things that are important to usright out, but the things that
are important to us, right, sosome institutions may not see
(35:19):
the same importance of aparticular document that I might
, right.
So keeping my own archive, ifyou will right, becomes again
just so, so, so important forfuture work, so that we don't
lose the work that thesehonestly trailblazing women for
me because I specifically lookat women the work that they've
done, right the hard fight thatthey have gone through, and just
(35:44):
an appreciation for their lives, right their grit, right their
loves and just how they caredfor their communities.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
That point on archives, I think, brings me to
what I also love to talk about,which is popular culture, right,
and the way that we sort ofbridge these histories in more
modern and inventive ways, andso could you share with our
listeners and I'll of coursecourse, add this to our Strictly
Facts syllabus some of yourfavorite examples of how this
(36:17):
history shows up in popularculture throughout the diaspora,
when it comes to this missionwork and these sort of Black in
the US and Black in the Guyana'sconnections.
Speaker 2 (36:31):
I think, one connection, not necessarily like
pop culture, but a lot of thedescendants of some of these
women that I am talking aboutspecifically in Guyana, a lot of
their descendants are actuallyin, or have been involved in
Guyana's government at one pointin time, right?
So these are the grandmothers ofsome politicians, right?
(36:56):
But I also think, like forpopular culture, cy Grant has,
like, shown up in my work who'sthought of to be as one of the
first, like Black people,featured regularly in British TV
, and he is Guyanese and hisfather was actually a Moravian
minister.
And so, while I write about theAME, for me it's an interesting
connection because the AMEspeak about the Black ministers
(37:21):
during this time period, one ofwhich was Cy Grant's father, and
the competition, right, likethey think of this as a
competition for souls, right?
And so to see his father as aMoravian minister still show up
in some of these other archives,and then Cy Grant goes on to,
you know, become a very famousChinese man in London, if you
(37:43):
will, I think also speaks tosome of the different
connections that we see when wetalk about Blackness and
religion in the African diaspora.
Speaker 1 (37:54):
Our last question for today.
I think you know you've givenus so much to think about and
also I can see so many differentways.
You know future conversationsabout religion and the diaspora
go from here.
But I think, as a final note,when we think about, you know
(38:15):
things like missionaries, likeBlack international solidarity,
imperialism, all of these verybig topics right, the research
on these topics focus on theselarge scale organizations.
Oftentimes you know big name,quote unquote activists and
groups, groups.
How do you think knowing Idon't like to say lesser known,
(38:37):
you know, because that doesn'tdiminish their importance but
how do you think our knowledgeof these situations, of what's
happening at the time, evolvesor changes when we know a little
bit more about these lesserknown stories and demonstrating
different sides of Blackinternational cooperation that
we sometimes overlook?
Speaker 2 (39:00):
I think it allows us to see multiple visions of
freedom, if you will right,multiple visions of what people
think of as liberation, right.
And so one of my committeemembers the way that he
describes the people that I workon are Black international
(39:23):
actors who do not frontallycontest American imperialism but
use it to pursue Blackpossibility that, if realized,
would undermine imperialism.
Right, these are not like yourClaudia Joneses of the world,
right, they are contemporaries,right, but they see the world
and what they imagine as aliberatory space as a little bit
(39:46):
different, right.
And so I think when we kind ofexpand right or look into some
of these smaller stories, wejust see multiple visions of
freedom, we see multiple visionsof what a liberatory space
looks like.
Whether you agree or disagreewith it, that people had right,
(40:10):
because they do think of it interms of uplift even people on
the ground.
These women in Guyana, right,afro-guyanese women, are also
talking about the ways that theyare uplifting the members of
the church and the largercommunity, right, and in many
times it is in line with AMEteachings and at times it's not
(40:31):
right, but it is still theirvision of how they see that work
happening.
And so I think there are manydifferent ways that people will
talk about and define Blackinternationalism.
If you will and I do I just usemy committee members quote
right To say that you know.
Yes, I understand these are notnecessarily people on the far
(40:53):
left, but they are people who,at least from my understanding,
right, have a genuine care andlove for other black people
across the diaspora.
Right and so, while I workspecifically on Guyana and
Suriname, right, they are alsotalking and writing about other
(41:13):
places in the Caribbean.
Right, they're heavily writingabout connections to Africa, the
US, you know, and Canada aswell.
Right.
So, again, I think, for whatmay be the fourth time, it's
just another way to seeconnections and visions of
freedom amongst people in thediaspora.
Speaker 1 (41:35):
I think that's a beautiful point for us to close
on, especially for Black HistoryMonth right, that there's this
long history of our love for oneanother and our wanting to not
only free ourselves depending onwhere you are geographically,
nationally, et cetera butsupport and uplift Black people
(41:56):
across the world.
So with that, thank you so much, dr Royster, for sharing with
us a bit today.
I know that I really enjoyedthis episode and it gives us a
lot of different ways to thinkabout religion and the impacts
it's had in ways that are notusually always at the forefront.
So, for our listeners, I hopeyou enjoyed it.
Religion and the impacts it'shad in ways that are not usually
always at the forefront.
So for our listeners, I hopeyou enjoyed it.
(42:17):
You know I always put up, youknow, information articles that
Dr Royster has and other, youknow, paralleling research on
our website for you to check outif you'd like to learn more,
and so till next time, look amore.
Welcome to Strictly Facts, a guide to Caribbean
history and culture, hosted byme, alexandria Miller.
Strictly Facts teaches thehistory, politics and activism
of the Caribbean and connectsthese themes to contemporary
music and popular culture.
Wanton people class is back insession with a big celebration
(00:24):
today Happy 100th episode ofStrictly Facts, a guide to
Caribbean history and culture.
What better way to kick offFebruary, with it being Black
History Month, reggae Month andso much more with another
podcast milestone?
And so our episode today is, ofcourse, celebrating Black
history as we trot through thediasporic connections in the
(00:45):
British and Dutch Guianas whatis present-day Guyana and
Suriname to discuss nation power, community building throughout
the 19th and 20th centuries,especially in terms of
missionary work.
And so we won't be taking thisjourney alone, of course, and I
am extremely grateful to have DrBrianna Royster joining us
(01:05):
today, and she is the assistantprofessor in the Department of
Gender and Race Studies at theUniversity of Alabama, and so
again, dr Royster, reallygrateful to have you on the show
.
Why don't you begin withtelling our listeners a little
bit more about yourself, yourconnection to the Caribbean, if
any, and what inspired yourinterest in Black history,
(01:26):
empire religion and Blackinternationalism?
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Sure, alexandria.
First, thank you so much forhaving me here.
I am absolutely honored andthrilled to be here to speak
with you today.
I personally don't have adirect ancestral connection to
the Caribbean as far as I know,like a direct ancestral
connection to the Caribbean asfar as I know.
Some of I think my earliestinterest in history specifically
(01:49):
Black women's history, but alsostories of migration come from
my grandmother right.
So my grandmother always tellsme stories.
When I was little and I thinkone of the stories about my
ancestors that has always stoodout to me was the story of my
fourth great grandmother who wasenslaved in Tennessee and
following emancipation she leftTennessee following a massacre
(02:13):
and according to my grandmothershe did that on foot.
So she walked from Tennessee toAlabama over a period of time
and I think that really sparkedmy interest in stories of
migration.
But also in college I was partof a service learning group
right a study abroad coursewhere we spent time in the DR,
(02:34):
specifically on the batays andyou know, just kind of doing
whatever they asked us to do.
So a lot of that time Iactually spent shelling peas,
which also made me think aboutdiasporic connections, because I
also grew up shelling peas asmy grandparents' farm right, but
also we also went to Dahabon onmarket day and watching the
(02:56):
experiences of Haitians tryingto cross the border to sell
their goods right.
The violence with which theywere met while crossing over, I
think, more directly sparked myinterest in stories of migration
and women and the Caribbeanmore specifically.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
I'm always fascinated to learn how people got
introduced to their work, or youknow what were some of the
early catalysts, because I think, especially when you're doing
research and doing these biggerprojects, it can be you know
you're in such a zone thatsometimes you forget what really
sparked.
You know those early beginnings, so thank you so much for
sharing.
I really want to kick us offwith us having this conversation
(03:38):
about missionary work in a veryintentional way, At least, you
know, in my experiences oflearning Caribbean history and
history broadly, missionariesand missionary work are often
pitted in a particular way and,you know, specifically
acknowledging the harms done atthe hands of, usually foreign,
white religious groups,christian groups usually and I'm
(04:00):
not, you know, discountingthose things and the truths of
those statements or thoseexperiences.
We, you know, discounting thosethings and the truths of those
statements or those experiences.
We've, you know, certainlydiscussed several throughout the
show.
I can think of one episode inparticular where we talked about
sign language and the ways thatyou know, white Christian
missionaries were coming to theCaribbean and sort of really
(04:21):
negatively impacting the localCaribbean sign languages that
were already introduced, right,but I think the interesting part
for me about your work is itkind of, you know, shifts some
of that on its head, especiallywhen it comes to talking about
race, and so the subjects inyour research helped to really
complicate this during a periodof, you know, massive Black
(04:44):
liberation movements over thecourse of, you know, like over a
century really.
And ultimately, your researchexplores Black missionaries from
the African Methodist EpiscopalChurch and the National Baptist
Convention and the work thatthey carried out in the Guianas.
However, you know really seeingits Black majority in the area
(05:05):
as a place of empowerment, asopposed to the US where Black
people were seen as the minority, and so could you help us, you
know, just frame what'shappening in the world at this
time, both within the context ofthe US, of the Caribbean, of
the Guianas, and also you knowwhat's going on in AMEC and the
(05:26):
National Black Convention aswell.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
Sure, so I'm going to start at the very beginning of
my project, which is actuallyoccurs before the missionaries
arrive, and that is 1840, right,so 1838, 1840, when Black
people are immigrating to Guyana.
And it's during that period oftime, where emancipation has not
occurred yet in the US, whereBlack people in the US
(05:52):
absolutely see Guyana as a placeof hope, right, really, the
British Caribbean right as aplace of hope and with the ways
that they are engaging in that.
Now I will say they do notalways engage with the realities
of what is happening on theground, right, once people are
emancipated in Guyana, but it isstill a place of hope, right,
(06:15):
all of these Black people whoare freed, right, it offers a
vision of what the US can be forthem, and some of those people
who immigrate in 1840 stay anddevelop connections there.
But they also continue to writeback home, and quite a few of
them are from Baltimore, right,and they are writing back home
to people who are specificallyinvolved with the AME church,
(06:40):
and that is one of the ways thatthe mission work is kind of
connected through time, eventhough the mission work hasn't
been done in 1840.
And so when the missions began,some of the earlier missions
began with the British MethodistEpiscopal Church in the 1870s,
who eventually they will combinewith AME Church and the AME
(07:03):
Church kind of takes over themission.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
Before we get too deep into talking about the
actual mission work.
I did definitely want tounderscore and ensure that our
listeners know about the AMEChurch.
You know the importance forthem at this moment for Black
people in the US, so could yousort of allow our listeners you
know a lay of the land a littlebit and to understand what these
(07:29):
two organizations really meantin terms of Black collective
religion, black organizing, etc.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
Sure.
So the AME, african MethodistEpiscopal Church and the NBC,
the National Baptist ConventionIncorporated USA are the two
denominations that I look at andduring the time that I am
looking at them the late 19th,early 20th century they are two
of the largest organizations forAfrican Americans right Black
(07:59):
people in, specifically in theUS.
It is where you will find notall right, but a lot of cultural
work happening, a lot ofpolitical work happening.
The AME at the time that I'mstudying they have long, long
been an organization and myproject begins.
They are the largest religiousdenomination of black people in
(08:22):
the US.
The National Baptist Conventionbegan fully in name, a bit later
, so not until the 1890s, rightwhen, you like, truly, truly,
truly have a fully formed NBC,although they exist as kind of
smaller independent churches, ifyou will, prior to then,
(08:47):
independent churches, if youwill prior to then, and so
eventually, actually across thetime of my project, you will
eventually have more Blackpeople in the NBC than the AME,
but you're still talking likemillions of Black people at this
time point who are involved,and so using their archives
becomes greatly important forthe work, because it truly is a
hub for so much work, whether itis cultural, social, even
(09:10):
political, religious, a lot ofthat work done, being done
through the church in the late19th century, early 20th century
, when this project really,really, really begins.
And so what is happening inGuyana?
Actually, there are a lot ofissues going on with labor at
(09:33):
the time In the US.
The US is kind of dealing withthe backlash, if you will right,
of reconstruction.
They are dealing with highlyoppressive regimes, right
honestly, in both areas, and Idon't think people in the US
(09:53):
always necessarily appreciatewhat is going on on the ground
in Guyana beforehand, right.
But I will say, what happensover time is that, following
emancipation in the US AfricanAmericans, they begin to think
of other people in the world inneed of their help.
Right, specifically Blackpeople.
I believe there's a genuinecare right for their Black
(10:18):
brothers and sisters across theworld and they're saying how can
we help while also spreadingChrist?
Right, those are their goals.
I think things become a bit of aparadox when you talk about US
imperialism combined with whatit is that they are doing, which
they are not ignorant of.
And so it's interesting becauseat times I will read where they
(10:44):
will talk about those involvedin foreign mission work will say
that they are using thecoattails of American
imperialism to help black peoplein the world.
Like that is actually a directquote.
Right, that they're using thecoattails of the US imperialism
to help other black people inthe world and to spread the word
.
Right.
But there are also times and Iknow we'll talk a little bit
(11:08):
more about the women later on,but there are writings from some
of the women in the US who areactually calling for an end to
foreign entanglements of the USwhile also continuing in foreign
mission work, which they see asa kind of care work right.
That's kind of what's kind ofhappening right in this world,
(11:30):
as these missions are reallystarting out in the late 1800s,
early 1900s, so my project onlygoes through like 1945 or so.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
I think that is a story that's definitely not told
, in a way, right.
I think at least you know someof my experiences learning US
history.
It is very US history based andnobody else matters.
We're exploring today, ofcourse, and as we've done in the
(12:15):
past, that's not the case,especially when you're coming
from you know a moremarginalized status and
recognizing the other thingsthat are going on in the world
Right.
Even Haiti comes out in yourproject and you know this
understanding of.
Haiti is being, you know, sortof like a Mecca in a way Right.
Sort of like a Mecca in a wayright, that they were able to
liberate themselves so manydecades in advance of everybody
else pretty much, more or less,at least you know, over on this
side of the world, and do so ina way that you know is, I think
(12:40):
you know, could be attributed toinspiration right, inspiration
that you know communities Blackto inspiration, right,
inspiration that you knowcommunities Black people in the
US particularly, are drawing onand looking for hope in other
places and trying to understandwhat to do right, and so I was
just gonna say and, if I may, Iwant to be very clear that these
(13:01):
Black missionaries will sayexplicitly that they do not
believe White missionaries cansay explicitly that they do not
believe white missionaries cando this kind of work with black
people in the same way, right,like they are very explicit
about that in their personalletters.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
So they do think that there's a difference in what
they are doing with what blackmissionaries are doing.
I also want to add that theyalso recognize difference, right
, so there is absolutely AfricanAmerican exceptionalism
happening here.
But they do recognizedifference in communities, right
(13:39):
, while also wanting to beattached.
But they also recognize theimportance of people who are
from the area, right, and so,while I work on missionaries and
those involved for missions inthe A&E and the NDC, maybe 80%
of the missionaries that I studyare actually from Guyana, right
(14:00):
, and so only a small amount arefrom the US.
But what happens is that theywill use missionaries who are
born in Guyana and many of themwere educated in the US, right,
so they may have come to an HBCUin the US, became affiliated
with the AME church, and thenthey're sent back to Guyana or
Suriname and work as asmissionaries and work for the
(14:21):
church.
Guyana or Suriname and work asmissionaries and work for the
church.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
I think that brings us to a really interesting point
, as we sort of contextualizediasporic unity in the way that
community builds right, at leastyou know, I think.
Sometimes we tend to talk aboutyou know Harlem as being one of
those places where you knowBlack people from across the
world come together especiallyyou know we're talking the 1920s
(14:47):
Harlem Renaissance period andwe don't necessarily always
think about, you know,decentralizing the US from that
perspective and you know otherways that the very same things
could have been happening, maybein smaller pockets or whatever,
but throughout the world.
And so could you speak a littlebit more to you know this idea
(15:09):
of these diasporic connectionsreally allowing for a different
sort of understanding ofBlackness outside of the US.
As you know, people in Guyana,people in Suriname and then
these black missionaries fromthe US also coming together, I
think, for one, it's actuallyquite educational for people in
(15:32):
the US, right?
Speaker 2 (15:34):
So, while the AME and , honestly, the NBC too, they
have foreign missions all overthe world, they have their own
periodicals over the world.
They have their own periodicalsthat are directly related to
missionary work.
They also will post lettersfrom the missionaries from where
(15:57):
they are, and so there are,like your, regular lay people in
the church in the US who arelearning about Guyana through
writings from missionaries,right, there are also times
where the missionary's children,right, are also writing very,
very, very short letters thatare also at times, being
published, right, pictures arebeing published in the
periodicals, and you havewritings from people in the US
(16:21):
who are then more interested indaily life for people in Guyana,
which also leads to additionaldonations, right, once they feel
like they know someone, if youwill, in these missions.
And so one thing I think thatit does for the people in the US
(16:42):
is it gives Black Americans,like, a greater sense of
connection, right, other ways tosee different parts of the
world that are not necessarilyclouded by a view from, like,
the US government, if you will,right, so they are able to see,
(17:05):
read and learn about people inGuyana, what is going on with
the churches, specifically inGuyana, and the work that
they're doing, and then there's,like, some of the work that
happens behind the scenes withthe women, and there's also a
sense of share oppression, right, and so, while they, people in
(17:26):
the US, know and understand whatthey are going through, I think
to also see what is happeningin Guyana and some of the
oppression that Black people areexperiencing in Guyana also,
like, adds to this sense of likewe are connected, right, how do
we help?
Right, how do we help andsupport each other?
That this fight isn't just afight about um jim crow in the
(17:50):
us, right, this is a globalfight.
Like, how do we assist in thatum?
But also, like, how do we havethese conversations with each
other about, like, what we aregoing to do globally, right, so,
so during this time they areabsolutely in the early 20th
century like using the termuplift, right, so how do we
(18:11):
uplift each other?
And what does that uplift looklike in Guyana?
In ways that may or may not bedifferent than ideas of uplift
in the US, right, but I think insome, what it does is that it
increases feelings of diasporicconnections.
Speaker 1 (18:30):
From here I want us to you know, move through,
talking about the shifts thathappen in their, the sort of
understanding of what'shappening in Guyana, right, and
so you mentioned earlier thissort of impression of these
Black missionaries coming in andbeing like, oh, it's a safe
(18:50):
haven, Right, Black majority, etcetera, and then them actually
getting there and being on theground and being like, oh, you
know, like what is the actualreality of the situation?
And so how does being on theground actually, you know,
demonstrate this difference intheir viewpoints, or you know
(19:11):
the evolution of theirviewpoints and really you know
concepts of imperialism, ofnationalism, and even how they
can lead to division within theBlack diaspora.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
Right.
I think one piece of that isthis kind of African-American
exceptionalism piece right.
That absolutely leads todivision.
There are things and ways inwhich they see the world, things
that they prioritize right.
That people in Guyana it isn'tthat they don't always think of
(19:43):
uplift in the same way, althoughsometimes they don't always
think of uplift in the same way,although sometimes they don't
it is that people in the US feelthat they should have more
control over what's happening,right, Whereas people who are
actually in the churches inGuyana in some ways they
absolutely not right Like theseare our churches.
Like, yes, we understand we areaffiliated with you, but these
(20:04):
are our churches.
And so sometimes you seedivision happen in that way.
But in other ways, I think whenwe're talking about what this
idea of hope Black majorityversus what they see and hear
about when they're actually onthe ground In some of the
(20:28):
writings, you see that it's alittle bit startling to them.
But I also think that is partof the reason why having
ministers affiliated withmission work, who were born in
Guyana, becomes so valuable andimportant right, because they
are actually familiar with whatis happening on the ground.
(20:48):
They're familiar with thestructures that they are going
to have to come up against right.
They are familiar with thepeople.
Even if they've been away for afew years, their families have
still been there and theyactually become a great resource
for AME administration in theUS, but also for the Guyanese
people in their churches.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
Certainly Do you spend some time with us just
like explaining what thesenetworks look like, how they
were formed.
I think there are a lot ofinteresting points that come out
through your work, like theimportance of education.
You know these sort ofhierarchical perspectives, the
role of women in this moment andhow those in the Guyanas are
(21:32):
feeling really supported orempowered through this mission
work.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
So I really love talking about the women.
One area I think of differencethat I think is very clear in
writings when it comes to peoplein the US and the AME church
and people in Guyana who areinvolved in the AME church is
Garveyism.
So in the US, the AME church,like, they write privately,
(22:00):
essentially saying they wantnothing to do with it, whereas
some people are familiar withthe fact that Garveyism was
popular in Guyana.
And so on the ground, peoplewho are involved in AME churches
, also going to UNIA meetingsright, they are also going to
hear like Garveyite speak.
(22:20):
And I think one of my moreentertaining archival finds are
from two people who are membersof the AME church and they go to
a UNIA meeting and they're notaware that they're going to see
each other and so they'rewriting in personal
correspondence and they're notsure if they are both actually
(22:42):
people who are interested inGarveyism or if one of them is
an AME spy, if you will, tryingto figure out who was showing up
to these meetings, right, it'samusing to see those letters in
the archive.
But I think that is alsoanother area where, going to
your previous question, wherethere's an absolute split
between what's happening on theground in Guyana and the
(23:03):
interest and needs of people inGuyana versus Black people in
the US, affiliated with thechurch, right, how their
interests divert in particularways Getting back to, like, the
women and the networks.
A lot of the networks areconnected through different
auxiliaries, right.
And so first I want want to say, before I begin even speaking
(23:26):
about these networks, is thatAfro-Guyanese people have had
mutual aid organizations for avery long time.
When my work begins in 1840,looking at immigration, right,
afro-guyanese people alreadyhave mutual aid organizations
set up on the ground runninggood to go, right.
And so AME foreign missions arecoming into a world that is
(23:51):
already doing, right, a lot ofthis work, just without the
religious bent at times, right,but they're already, like, very
well organized in Guyana.
But basically a lot of thenetwork specifically through the
women happens through women'sauxiliaries, and so in the AME
Church that's the Women's ParentLife Missionaries Society and
(24:13):
the Women's Home and ForeignMissions Society.
So initially a lot of theconnections that you see are
happening between the wives ofpastors, the wives of bishops,
in the church and through thesecretary treasurer of foreign
missions who at the time that Iam writing, is always a man, and
(24:33):
so initially the correspondencegoes through the secretary
treasurer of foreign missionsand the presiding elder and
eventually the women'sauxiliaries understand, like
they know, they begin to knowthe wives of the ministers in
Guyana, and then you begin tosee more letters going directly
between them, right At timeswithout their husbands or
(24:57):
without the secretary treasurerfor admissions in the US even
realizing what is happening.
Right?
So the women's auxiliaries areraising a lot of money.
The youth department for theA&E at one time actually takes
over paying all the salaries forthe teachers who are affiliated
(25:18):
with schools that are thenaffiliated with the churches.
Right, and so the women hold alot of the purse strings in the
US.
And because some of theircorrespondence goes through the
secretary treasurer, right, attimes he will deny things in
Guyana and the women will thenbypass him right and write
(25:42):
directly to the auxiliaries inthe US to say this is what we
need and why, and then they willreceive whatever it is they
need.
And at times people in Guyanamay bypass the
Secretary-Treasurer forEmissions and go directly to,
like, the president of one ofthe auxiliaries.
That president will at timessend something directly back to
(26:04):
that woman, but at times thepresident will also send a
letter to the secretarytreasurer for admonishing him,
right, for not sending whateverit is, and then at times also
saying I am giving you this togive to this person and I want
you to know that I am alsosending a letter to this woman
in Guyana to let her know thatyou're going to be sending this
(26:26):
right.
And so those are some of theways that different connections
form and also grow.
And then you have the women inGuyana who are also doing a lot
of work in the community andreaching out to the women's
auxiliaries in the US for help.
But the women in Guyana arealso, if I can be, more relaxed
(26:50):
in speech, right, like they arestaying on the men's necks in
the US, right, and so they arewriting letters.
And I think two of the womenwho I really appreciate in my
work one is Mrs Dorothy Morris,who actually becomes an ordained
deacon in the church.
She's towards the end of mywork and then a little bit
(27:13):
earlier, is a Mrs ConstanceLucky.
And Mrs Lucky is the wife of aminister.
Her minister passes away fairly, I'll say, maybe in the middle
of my project, but she continuesdoing the work of the church,
specifically advocating forwomen and children in Georgetown
(27:33):
.
And so when the Secretary forAdmissions in the US isn't
necessarily doing what he haspromised to do, she continues to
write letters.
Right, she will remind him.
You made me this promise ofthis and I expect this thing to
then happen.
Right, and if it doesn't arriveon time, she sends another
letter.
Right, she sends a letter tothe Women's Auxies at times when
(27:56):
she does receive what she'sasked for and it is late.
Right, she will send a messagesaying thank you.
However, right, we weresupposed to receive Christmas
money, for example, in December,which we greatly appreciate
this money.
Maybe next year you should sendit before Christmas, right?
(28:16):
So, like, I love reading thoseinteractions where these women
are advocating for the people intheir communities and actually
holding some of these menaccountable, saying these are
things that you have promised me, my people and my organizations
.
That's just how some of thenetworks form, what some of the
(28:37):
networks look like On the USside.
They are also and I think it'snot surprising, given the time
period that the women'sauxiliaries are largely
responsible for the funding ofwomen's and children's events.
Right, if you will, in Guyana,and this also pertains to
(28:59):
education at times.
So they will pay for women'seducation, whether that be in
some of the secondary educationschools in Guyana, or whether
that is like a woman coming toreceive college education at
Wilberforce or at Tuskegee, forexample.
(29:19):
Or sometimes it is the wives ofministers in Guyana coming to
the US for a conference, rightthose kinds of things right.
Women's auxiliaries in the USare also responsible for that,
and you'll see correspondencehappening amongst these women
for those needs as well.
Speaker 1 (29:40):
I always love these sort of like niche examples of
people and women, in this caseBlack women, standing on
business right For lack of abetter way to frame me and, just
, you know, being veryintentional about the work and,
I think, allowing us tounderstand that oftentimes we
don't see that there are morebridges than we even, you know,
(30:01):
really know about.
And that, I think, brings me toa really interesting point in
your project is that it iscemented in a lot of ways in
archival research and like a lotof archival research right,
which I think is, you know,there are different institutions
that I think hold theircorrespondences, their records
(30:25):
and things really well, and Ithink churches are one of those
institutions, and so could youtalk about what it was like to,
you know, have this, you know,massive wealth of resources to
go through, to pull from, andhow it really demonstrates the
importance of keeping ourarchives and our stories for
(30:45):
future generations.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
Oh sure.
So the majority of my archivescome from the AME Foreign
Missions Archives and that is atthe Schomburg Center in New
York.
It is greatly important becausethere are even times with those
records where you can tell theSecretary of Foreign Missions
(31:07):
may have kept somecorrespondence and then some is
missing.
But I think oral history isvery important, right, but as
far as like written things,right, if we don't keep these
things I would never know aboutsome of these women, right, the
president of these auxiliariesabsolutely show up in, like the
(31:28):
monthly or the quarterlymissionary periodicals.
I guess, like some of you, morelike average women who are part
of the auxiliaries or the womenwho are writing back and forth
from Guyana do not alwaysnecessarily show up in those
periodicals.
So a lot of what I have, forexample, when I'm talking about
Mrs Constance Lucky, a lot ofthat is from personal
(31:51):
correspondence that was savedbetween women, right, some of
that comes from the Secretary ofForeign Missions and what he
saved, but a lot of it isbecause other women affiliated
with the church saved thiscorrespondence and without that
the stories of these women, Idon't want to say, would be lost
, right, because again, I thinkoral history is largely
(32:14):
important and, I think, alsoright.
If we're just talking about MrsConstance Lucky in general,
right, her legacy in Georgetownin Guyana is solidified.
Right, her story I don't thinkwould be one that is surprising
to people in Guyana.
Right, she has a missionaryorganization named after her
(32:38):
present day in Guyana, right now.
Right.
But on the US side, right,there's not that knowledge of
the importance of her and thework that she has done.
And so, without some of thesewritings, some of these letters
being saved, we lose some of themore granular and everyday
organizing that was happening.
Right, we lose how women werethinking of different forms of
(33:00):
care.
We lose women's some of theirpolitical ideas about what was
happening in the church and howthey connect that politically to
some of the things that they'readvocating for in Guyana.
We lose that again.
On the flip side of in the US,similar things, similar
organizing, is also happening.
(33:21):
So I think it's hugelyimportant that we save documents
.
We have our own archives,whether that is in some place
like the Schomburg or whetherthat's just in churches.
Also, some of the sources thatI use just come directly from
churches Right, they come frommeeting minutes Right.
(33:41):
Some things also come fromobituaries Right In my family, I
think.
When I was little I didn'tunderstand like why are you
saving these obituaries?
Speaker 1 (33:52):
And I love that because that's something that
everybody does right and they'realways very pristine, like kept
well, I think that's one ofthose, those diasporic things
that we don't talk about enough,that it's like somebody's
auntie, somebody's grandmotherhas kept these um, these
obituaries, um these funeralprograms, it's.
Speaker 2 (34:14):
It's one of those things to me, but sorry to cut
you no, no, no, that's um, it'sso true, though right, and I
love that.
Um, like that is something thatwe share across the diaspora,
right, um, and, as I said, likeas a kid I didn't quite
understand it, but now, workingas a historian, I see how
important those are, right, like, not just for personal memories
(34:38):
, right, of this person, thisloved one, this person that
you've known, but for me, as ahistorian, they carry a wealth
of information that I may notfind out anywhere else, right,
and so they allow me to buildconnections and to gain more
insight into this person's life.
And then also, it sends me offin different directions to dig
(34:58):
for other things.
Right and so developing.
Holding on to our own archives Ithink it's just so important.
But also, when I think aboutarchives, I also think about the
things that are important to usright out, but the things that
are important to us, right, sosome institutions may not see
(35:19):
the same importance of aparticular document that I might
, right.
So keeping my own archive, ifyou will right, becomes again
just so, so, so important forfuture work, so that we don't
lose the work that thesehonestly trailblazing women for
me because I specifically lookat women the work that they've
done, right the hard fight thatthey have gone through, and just
(35:44):
an appreciation for their lives, right their grit, right their
loves and just how they caredfor their communities.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
That point on archives, I think, brings me to
what I also love to talk about,which is popular culture, right,
and the way that we sort ofbridge these histories in more
modern and inventive ways, andso could you share with our
listeners and I'll of coursecourse, add this to our Strictly
Facts syllabus some of yourfavorite examples of how this
(36:17):
history shows up in popularculture throughout the diaspora,
when it comes to this missionwork and these sort of Black in
the US and Black in the Guyana'sconnections.
Speaker 2 (36:31):
I think, one connection, not necessarily like
pop culture, but a lot of thedescendants of some of these
women that I am talking aboutspecifically in Guyana, a lot of
their descendants are actuallyin, or have been involved in
Guyana's government at one pointin time, right?
So these are the grandmothers ofsome politicians, right?
(36:56):
But I also think, like forpopular culture, cy Grant has,
like, shown up in my work who'sthought of to be as one of the
first, like Black people,featured regularly in British TV
, and he is Guyanese and hisfather was actually a Moravian
minister.
And so, while I write about theAME, for me it's an interesting
connection because the AMEspeak about the Black ministers
(37:21):
during this time period, one ofwhich was Cy Grant's father, and
the competition, right, likethey think of this as a
competition for souls, right?
And so to see his father as aMoravian minister still show up
in some of these other archives,and then Cy Grant goes on to,
you know, become a very famousChinese man in London, if you
(37:43):
will, I think also speaks tosome of the different
connections that we see when wetalk about Blackness and
religion in the African diaspora.
Speaker 1 (37:54):
Our last question for today.
I think you know you've givenus so much to think about and
also I can see so many differentways.
You know future conversationsabout religion and the diaspora
go from here.
But I think, as a final note,when we think about, you know
(38:15):
things like missionaries, likeBlack international solidarity,
imperialism, all of these verybig topics right, the research
on these topics focus on theselarge scale organizations.
Oftentimes you know big name,quote unquote activists and
groups, groups.
How do you think knowing Idon't like to say lesser known,
(38:37):
you know, because that doesn'tdiminish their importance but
how do you think our knowledgeof these situations, of what's
happening at the time, evolvesor changes when we know a little
bit more about these lesserknown stories and demonstrating
different sides of Blackinternational cooperation that
we sometimes overlook?
Speaker 2 (39:00):
I think it allows us to see multiple visions of
freedom, if you will right,multiple visions of what people
think of as liberation, right.
And so one of my committeemembers the way that he
describes the people that I workon are Black international
(39:23):
actors who do not frontallycontest American imperialism but
use it to pursue Blackpossibility that, if realized,
would undermine imperialism.
Right, these are not like yourClaudia Joneses of the world,
right, they are contemporaries,right, but they see the world
and what they imagine as aliberatory space as a little bit
(39:46):
different, right.
And so I think when we kind ofexpand right or look into some
of these smaller stories, wejust see multiple visions of
freedom, we see multiple visionsof what a liberatory space
looks like.
Whether you agree or disagreewith it, that people had right,
(40:10):
because they do think of it interms of uplift even people on
the ground.
These women in Guyana, right,afro-guyanese women, are also
talking about the ways that theyare uplifting the members of
the church and the largercommunity, right, and in many
times it is in line with AMEteachings and at times it's not
(40:31):
right, but it is still theirvision of how they see that work
happening.
And so I think there are manydifferent ways that people will
talk about and define Blackinternationalism.
If you will and I do I just usemy committee members quote
right To say that you know.
Yes, I understand these are notnecessarily people on the far
(40:53):
left, but they are people who,at least from my understanding,
right, have a genuine care andlove for other black people
across the diaspora.
Right and so, while I workspecifically on Guyana and
Suriname, right, they are alsotalking and writing about other
(41:13):
places in the Caribbean.
Right, they're heavily writingabout connections to Africa, the
US, you know, and Canada aswell.
Right.
So, again, I think, for whatmay be the fourth time, it's
just another way to seeconnections and visions of
freedom amongst people in thediaspora.
Speaker 1 (41:35):
I think that's a beautiful point for us to close
on, especially for Black HistoryMonth right, that there's this
long history of our love for oneanother and our wanting to not
only free ourselves depending onwhere you are geographically,
nationally, et cetera butsupport and uplift Black people
(41:56):
across the world.
So with that, thank you so much, dr Royster, for sharing with
us a bit today.
I know that I really enjoyedthis episode and it gives us a
lot of different ways to thinkabout religion and the impacts
it's had in ways that are notusually always at the forefront.
So, for our listeners, I hopeyou enjoyed it.
Religion and the impacts it'shad in ways that are not usually
always at the forefront.
So for our listeners, I hopeyou enjoyed it.
(42:17):
You know I always put up, youknow, information articles that
Dr Royster has and other, youknow, paralleling research on
our website for you to check outif you'd like to learn more,
and so till next time, look amore.
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