November 26, 2025 • 51 mins
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A building can be history you can walk through, and in the Caribbean those stories are contested, resilient, and alive. With Professor Dahlia Nduom, we explore how colonial styles, tourist imagery, and community ingenuity have shaped what gets built and what gets erased as we move from great houses to tenement yards, spaces that encode climate logic, kinship, and care. We unpack how imagery once glorified plantations while hiding the homes of the enslaved, and how vernacular elements later became tropical décor, stripped of context. That’s where practice preservation matters: teaching Spanish walling and thatching; documenting craft with computation; and elevating incremental, remittance-powered building as a valid design strategy. We also look at resilience after disasters while spotlighting community organizations and design labs translating old intelligence into future-ready methods.
Policy sits at the heart of who gets to belong. We talk land tenure and how post-disaster aid often clashes with customary ownership. The path forward blends community-led design, climate-appropriate materials, and practical toolkits for safer self-building, while recognizing tropical modern works that carried post-independence identity. It’s a future where technology serves tradition, and preservation centers methods over façades. Listen to rethink what counts as “good architecture,” how culture and climate shape better choices, and discover ways to support people rebuilding with dignity.
Dahlia Nduom is a Visiting Associate Professor at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign’s School of Architecture. She received a BA in Architecture and Visual Studies from the University of Pennsylvania and an M.Arch from Columbia University. A licensed architect and educator, her work is rooted in history, culture, and perception and their impact on architecture across locales in the United States, Ghana, and the Caribbean. She has published and presented her work nationally and internationally, most recently at the Octagon Museum in Washington, DC. Her work has been recognized with the National Organization of Minority Architects’ Honor Award: Unbuilt Category (2017), the AIA DC Architect Educator Award (2022), and she was named a 2024 Diverse: Issues in Higher Education’s Emerging Scholar.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
Hello everyone.
Before we begin, I wanted to adda quick note.
This conversation on Caribbeanarchitecture was recorded prior
to Hurricane Mark's impactedseveral islands across the
region.
We of course still wanted toshare this episode, especially
because the subject matter feelseven more relevant in Martha's
aftermath.
(00:20):
I wanted to clarify why therecent events were not
specifically mentioned.
We're keeping everyone affectedin our thoughts and prayers, and
as always, we'll continue usingStrictly Facts to highlight the
strength and resilience ofcarbean people everywhere.
Now, let's get to the episode.
Welcome to Strictly Facts, aguide to carape and history and
culture, hosted by me, AlexanderMiller.
(00:44):
Crickly Facts teaches thehistory, politics, and activism
of the caroter and connectingcontemporary music and popular
culture.
Hello, hello everyone.
Welcome to another episode ofCrickly Facts and Guide to
Caribbean History and Culture,where we explore the history,
(01:04):
cultures, and spaces that shapethe Caribbean.
After speaking a kind of stuffthat are, you know, really
wanting for this discussion.
Today we are turning ourattention to Caribbean
architecture, a form ofexpression that tells us as much
about social structures,history, and identity as it does
about aesthetics.
(01:28):
It's like by indigenousknowledge, European colonial
legacies, African traditions, ofcourse, our papers from
Catholics of Asia oftentimes,and the practical demands of the
island's life and the ways thatwe take up space.
It carries the marks ofcolonialism from the imposition
(01:51):
of European styles, but alsomore recently the ways that
urban and rural spaces weredesigned to allow us to live on
these lands.
And at the same time, it hasbeen checked by creativity,
resilience, and adaptation,blending cultural influences
into something unique likeCaribbean.
This episode will explain howarchitecture in Caribbean is not
(02:13):
only a lens into the past, butalso a way to understand
contemporary challenges from thepressures of tourism and global
stereotypes of the region to anurgent need for climate
resilience through design.
We will discuss many of thesethings, and so I am really
grateful to have ProfessorDahlia Ndu joining us.
(02:35):
She is the visiting associateprofessor at the University of
Illinois Urbana Champaignjoining us.
Thank you so much again forjoining us for this episode.
Why don't you kick us off alittle bit with telling our
listeners a little bit moreabout who you are, your
connection to the Caribbean,which of course I'm hoping
you're excited to share a littlebit about, and of course, what
(02:56):
inspired your interest inCaribbean architecture?
SPEAKER_00 (02:58):
Okay, great.
My name is Dahlia Endum.
I'm an architect, researcher,and educator.
And I think kind of holisticallymy work centers on climate
change, climate justice,housing, and identity in the
Caribbean.
So I think your intro reallyencapsulates a lot of my
interests in the nuances ofCaribbean architecture, right?
(03:19):
I'm interested in it more thanjust a building and the
aesthetics of it all.
Really interested in how itembodies and it's a vessel for
culture, memory, resilience,power, identity, and sort of all
these intersections of cultural,social, and sort of political
dynamics that help to shape thearchitecture.
(03:41):
So that's kind of where my worklies.
How I got to that is I'm bornand raised in Antigua.
So, you know, I've been in theUS for over 20 years now, left
for college, so spent my entirechildhood in Antigua.
And so I always say, no matterhow long I've been in the US,
Antigua will always be home forme.
(04:04):
My family's still there.
I still go back often, andthat's where I call, you know,
my home.
But I think growing up, I wasalways interested in design.
You know, I I enjoyed art.
Um, and architecture just seemedlike a really fascinating way to
think about how you can sort ofmanifest your creativity into
(04:26):
the world in this kind oftangible way.
And that's kind of where itstarted, just this idea that
your creativity could have animpact in the world.
Um, and then as I got older andstarted to understand that
architecture is more than just,you know, this kind of
aesthetics, it really can shapehow we live, it shapes how we
use space, it can separatepeople, it can bring people
(04:48):
together.
Like it's so much embodied inarchitecture, and it really has
a huge impact on our lives, andthat really solidified my
interest in architecture beyondjust the sort of aesthetics of
it as a building.
And then related to Caribbeanarchitecture, it was more about
just trying to understand thenuances of the architecture of
(05:11):
where I grew up.
So I was educated in the US forboth undergrad and grad school,
and uh not once were we lookingat Caribbean architecture as a
sort of model of architecturethat should be studied.
Um, my education was through aEuropean lens and studying
everything from Greek and Romansort of classical architecture
(05:35):
all the way to cabusier andmodern sort of ideals, but from
that kind of Eurocentric lens.
And I always questioned (05:44):
well, there is um value to be had in
studying Caribbean architecture,right?
And I started to question why weweren't studying it in the way
that we were studying all ofthese other sort of
architectural traditions.
So once I graduated and got intoacademia, um, that's where I
(06:05):
found my niche, like wanting toadd to the body of work and
critical understanding ofCaribbean architecture outside,
you know, the sort of glossypostcard images that we tend to
see.
So that's sort of my overview ofhow I got here.
And um yeah, excited to continuethis work, especially as the
(06:26):
Caribbean, you know, is facing,you know, challenges of climate
change, etc.
SPEAKER_01 (06:30):
Thank you so much for sharing some more just about
basically, you know, how you'vetransitioned from um learning
about architecture into, youknow, being in this space today.
I definitely want to kick us offin terms of our conversation,
really underscoring this factthat I, you know, mentioned in
the intro, and it's that, youknow, there are so many
(06:52):
influences that have checked ourhistory, which I've talked about
several times, right?
But particularly when it comesto thinking about the design
layout, you know, architecturalspace of the Caribbean I don't
want to say it's largely um beenimpacted by colonization, but I
I mean we can't underscore that.
Um, of course, you know, thereare many ways that our
(07:15):
indigenous influences or Africaninfluences are Asian influences
have helped to underscore who weare.
But I think in a lot of wayswhen we think of maybe
immediately when we think ofarchitecture, we think of, you
know, buildings and churches andcourthouses that have been like,
you know, steeples of this hasbeen here since 1700, whatever,
(07:35):
and you know, all of thesethings, you definitely do think
about the impact of colonizationin the region.
And so for you, just sort of indoing this work, how have you
sort of underscored theimportance of European colonial
powers and influencing Caribbeanarchitecture and how have their
design sort of impacted the wayCaribbean people take up space
(08:00):
or even how Caribbean space isperceived?
SPEAKER_00 (08:02):
Yeah, that's a great question.
I think um a lot of my work hascentered around imagery, right?
So it's kind of the oppositekind of analysis.
Instead of studying thebuildings themselves, it's
studying how the buildings wererepresented and what was chosen
to be represented and what wasconcealed, what was revealed.
And um that work sort of builtoff of other scholars,
(08:26):
historians that have studiedimagery and how it's helped to
frame this exotic sort of Gardenof Eden narrative across the
Caribbean.
So, for example, Krista Thomasin her work, An I for the
Tropics, you know, really umunderstood um imagery landscapes
and how the body was representedwithin those landscapes and how
(08:48):
people were represented in thoselandscapes and what was
concealed and revealed.
And so I was interested in howdoes that start to speak to
architecture and howarchitecture was represented,
and then how does that start toframe an understanding of the
dominance of certain narrativesof architecture in the
Caribbean?
So through that work and sort ofunpacking all of the nuances of
(09:12):
Caribbean architecture, right?
We see that there was sort ofthis deliberate construction of
imagery to promote um sort ofcolonial ideals, right?
So we know that architecture hasmeaning, right?
When the Spanish came, then theBritish, et cetera, there was
this notion that indigenousarchitectural practices were not
(09:34):
deemed as sort of on par withtheir kind of architectural
styles.
So, for example, the British,they would sort of bring their
architectural styles fromBritain wholesale, even though
they may not have been suited tothe climate, um, because they
were a symbol of sort ofcolonial dominance over this
(09:54):
space, right?
You know, a lot of the GeorgianGothic revival styles that we
see in courthouses and umchurches and forts were about
symbols of power and dominance,right?
And so images of that alsoperpetuated that, right?
So we have this idea of imagesbeing used for specific
(10:16):
narratives and then thearchitecture as well being used
for specific um narratives.
And so, you know, you begin tosee this idea of the images and
the architecture being used toreinforce a certain ideal that
ended up sort of pushingindigenous vernacular African
practices to the background.
(10:37):
And so a lot of my work hastried to track that physically
in how architecture is developedin spaces, but also through
imagery.
So what I found I used Jamaicaas a case study, and what I
found was that even from 18thcentury plantation paintings by
James Haquewell, we see theprominence of these sort of
(10:59):
plantation structures that wereum sort of Georgian
architectural styles, and then,but in this sort of glorified
picturesque landscape, right?
That then started to tell acertain story of um the
plantation as a place that wasremoved from death, disease, and
(11:19):
the horrors of slavery.
And this was happening at a timeof abolitionist movement in
Britain.
And so you begin to see how theimage and the architecture
together were a way to try totell a certain story, a kind of
propaganda about what was reallyhappening.
And within a lot of thoseimages, the homes of the
enslaved laborers were sort ofhidden and concealed.
(11:43):
And then that started to shiftafter emancipation, where we
begin to see um homes that werereally suited to the climate.
They were very economical.
Um, they were some of the firsthomes of free people built out
of wood with jealousy windows,you know, some of the things
that we see today that arereally climatically responsive,
(12:07):
um, I argue have started to thenbe branded as this exotic.
They started to show up inpostcards, the kind of thatched
roof structure that once againwas very climatically responsive
to the environment, um, startedto then be wielded in a way to
promote tourism.
This is kind of a stage set orbackdrop.
(12:28):
So, once again, even though nowwe're seeing more of these
indigenous and vernacularpractices sort of being more
visible in these images, theywere still being used as a way,
sort of be manipulated in thiscase for tourism, um, as part of
the kind of colonial narrativethat was being shaped at that
time around sand, sea, sand,this kind of exotic narrative.
(12:51):
So I think those are some of thefirst instances where you begin
to get this exotic narrativebeing branded that now is a mix
of these colonial architectures,but also some of the things that
have become cliched now, like athatched roof, for example.
So it's it's very nuanced thatcolonial inference.
(13:12):
It manifested in the actual sortof colonial architecture, but I
think it also manifested in howcolonial powers were shaping
narratives.
SPEAKER_01 (13:22):
I mean, I also thought of an eye for the
tropics as we were setting thisup.
In a lot of ways, you know, youyou bring a very interesting
paradox because, of course, asyou outlined for us, right?
There there has been put on asort of you know exoticized
version of who the reaction is,um, who our people are, etc.
(13:42):
But the flip side of that is,you know, the starting point.
I don't know if I want to say itthat way, um, are from, you
know, our indigenous uhknowledges, our indigenous
practices, right?
Um, as a result of, you know,enslaved labor, disventured
servitude, et cetera.
And so I think basically thereare just, you know, so many ways
(14:03):
that Caribbean architecture hasuh maybe this is more so a
question for you in terms ofwhat do you define as Caribbean
architecture, but you know, Ithink there is a discrepancy as
you've outlined between uh whatthings have been put onto us,
sort of what things are innatelyours.
And so, you know, in terms ofsome of your work uh that has
(14:24):
looked at housing, I think thatis a very interesting way to
sort of look at how have we sortof claimed our own land
sometimes when when you're homeor whether it's on social media,
I have seen people build houses,you know, from blocks and cement
and think this is thearchitecture in a lot of ways,
right, that we don't highlightbecause uh there is this uh, you
(14:48):
know, top-down or sort of rightdefinition of architecture.
And we don't necessarily alwaysconsider um some of these other
ways that architecture canreally manifest.
And I found that sort of throughyour your own research about
housing really interestingbecause it is one of those ways
that we can define um innatelywhat our own architecture looks
(15:10):
like.
And so maybe the question is foryou um, how would you define
Caribbean architecture?
And then also, you know, throughyour work on housing, um, how do
you sort of see it maybedistinct from or um offering us
a different lens to considerwhat is, you know, innately
Caribbean architecture?
SPEAKER_00 (15:30):
That's a good question.
Um I would start with whatCaribbean architecture is not.
Um I think it's not a monolith,it's very nuanced, right?
And I think going back to someof that imagery and how it's
kind of flattened the Caribbeanas sort of one monolith.
I know we do we say we're oneCaribbean, which is you know
(15:51):
this sense of community, but umthe architecture is so nuanced
across um the islands based onthat history of colonization,
based on um economic, social,political issues, like and how
those all sort of come together.
So it is very nuanced, but Ithink um if I had to kind of
(16:11):
define um, you know, a kind of abroad definition, I would say it
is about climateappropriateness, climate
responsiveness, ingenuity.
Um, and then it's reallygrounded, and I in I think
domestic ritual, if we're we'respeaking about the housing um
(16:32):
component, and it's definitelygrounded in deaconship systems,
um, values, culture, et cetera.
So I think there's the sort oftangible aspect in terms of how
the construction practices, etcetera.
But then I think it's alsogrounded in maybe ways that we
live or want to be with others.
(16:54):
And so, for example, with a lotof the housing work, like you're
right, that's I the way Iapproach it, it's trying to
understand that bottom-upapproach and understanding that
community knowledge is actuallymore important than maybe my
professional knowledge, right?
That, you know, going into acommunity, the community knows
(17:17):
sort of their challenges andissues and how they may have
responded architecturally to itthat may be different from how I
would respond to it.
And so I often kind of approachan understanding of Caribbean
architecture through that lens.
But yeah, it also values maybewhat's considered as informality
in some spheres that may not bedeemed as quote unquote worthy
(17:43):
of studying because of thatlabeling of informality, right?
But within that, there's a lotto be learned, right?
There's about how people live,how they may choose to
self-build or add on to theirstructures as they go along,
what construction practices theymay have been employing to get
(18:04):
that to work, what techniquesand local materials, right, that
were maybe of the land that mayhave been employed.
And so within that sort of umincremental self-built housing,
I think you can find a lot ofunderstanding of climate
practices, cultural practices,um, maybe around family
(18:28):
expansion in the future, yourneeds, your economic needs
changing in the future, economicnecessity.
There's so much sort of wrappedup in that, like around
adaptability, um, memory,community.
There's so much there.
And I think to your point aboutthat like bottom-up versus
top-down, I think we often sortof, in terms of academia, don't
(18:50):
study what may not be consideredarchitecture with a capital A,
but is in fact there's a lot youcan learn, especially as we
confront um the climate crisis.
So I think um that's sort ofwhere I've been approaching my
work.
So a project that I'm about toexpand on is just getting
started is looking at sort ofpost-disaster housing and trying
(19:15):
to understand how people mayhave sort of adapted to housing
that was built and sort of givento them and made their own and
how they define home withinthese spaces that may have just
been given to them and they maynot have had a say in how that
home would have been shaped.
(19:36):
And I think there's a lot youcan learn from how Juan would
adapt to a space that maybe theydidn't have that hand in, and
then trying to understand wherethat incrementality, so a lot
of, for example, in Dominica,um, a lot of housing after it
was Irma or Maria, because youknow, those were back to back.
Um, a lot of the housing wascore housing, where you get the
(20:00):
core and then you can add onafter, right?
As your means allow.
And so trying to understand whatwere some of the decisions and
how people chose to add on ornot, how have they been uh sort
of uh navigating thatpost-disaster recovery?
So it's really looking at someof these everyday practices, but
(20:20):
within that, trying tounderstand well, how does you
know, sort of other sort ofcultural ideas of kinship,
community, et cetera, start tofilter into maybe some of those
decisions.
So it's really looking at a lotof those more local material
practices and communityknowledge and not necessarily um
(20:43):
the sort of architecture with acapital A, as I as I call it.
SPEAKER_01 (20:47):
That's a great point because I think, you know, as
you pointed out, our historygoes into how we build our
financials, our economy, youknow, certainly goes into how we
build.
I mean, even, you know, yourpoint on the way that we build
houses oftentimes where it's youknow, granny or whoever is in
(21:08):
Farin and we're sending moneyback home to exactly, you know,
room by room builders.
Yes, to build our our houses andthings like that.
I mean, in many ways, right,when we sort of like look at the
catch 22 of it, it's like thereis the obvious like mortgage
approach to getting a house, butthat's not necessarily feasible
for everyone, right?
(21:28):
Um what does it then look likefor us to have this approach to
building our houses?
Um, but then you know, it mighttake a little bit longer, but at
the end of it, you're also, youknow, not you don't have a
30-year mortgage or exactly allof these things.
SPEAKER_00 (21:44):
So yeah, yeah.
And I agree, like there's valuein understanding that, right?
Whereas I think sometimes wethink there's not value in
understanding that.
And even within that, you talkabout like the remittances and
sending money back home, butlike there's also nuances, even
of like land tenure and landownership within that, right?
Um, I've been looking at Barbudaum and Barbuda's sort of
(22:07):
communal land practices thathave been sort of uprooted after
um Hurricane Irma, and um, andthen the tensions there with
tourism and development, um, andhow housing and architecture
sort of all fits into that.
But even when you kind of digdown into thinking about
community and how that manifestsitself architecturally across
(22:30):
these different types, like theyards, like in Jamaica, right?
You have the yards or familycompounds, and even in
Barbieuda, we're thinking aboutsome of these communal land
practices, what has that meantfor how housing developed and
how the architecture developedbecause of this kind of communal
land.
Um, you know, and the list goeson, like how is maintenance and
repair done, and like the ideaof porches and shutters and
(22:53):
things like that that may have aclimatic response.
To summarize, you know, I thinkthis sort of incrementality or
informality is often deemedmaybe chaotic or not worthy of
studying, but I think there's alot to be learned that we can
then use to think about moreformal architectures, but
(23:14):
there's a lot to be learnedthere, especially because it is
still climatically responsive,it's social bonds, et cetera, et
cetera.
SPEAKER_01 (23:23):
I think that brings me to another point that I
definitely wanted to sort ofunderscore in our conversation,
because as we were sort ofalluding to, you know, European,
Georgian styles, et cetera, ofarchitecture that were brought
to the Caribbean, they might nothave been as fully suited for
our region, for our climate.
Um, that also even like weavesinto other conversations that
(23:46):
we've had on the podcast aboutstyle of dress, right?
And thinking of like Manley'sKariba suit, why were we wearing
three-piece suits in a placethat is 90 degrees?
Like, you know, uh and so theseconversations I think really
helped to shift these narrativesabout what matters, um, what
doesn't matter, who they matterto, right?
(24:07):
Um, and even thinking about theappeal of tourism as well, which
you've alluded to, right?
That for a lot of our islands,tourism is such a big part of
the money that we make.
And, you know, where are thediscrepancies between uh some of
the the lands, some of the, youknow, heritage sites and things
(24:28):
like that that are deemed asprotected, but then, you know,
thinking of not only theatrocities that have happened in
some of these sites, but also,you know, uh whose names are
really heralded when we think ofthem.
And so uh when you're sort ofunpacking this sort of
understanding of Caribbeanarchitecture for yourself
through your work, what do youthink is sort of most uh
(24:50):
unappreciated or misunderstoodwhen sort of viewed from this,
you know, Capital A architectureperspective?
SPEAKER_00 (25:00):
Yes, uh that's a good question.
I think um it kind of goes backto that conversation around sort
of local vernacular buildingpractices.
I think due to tourism and someof that imagery that I talked
about earlier, um, we'd begin tosee some of those because they
(25:20):
have become exoticized, right?
So my research talked about howthe thatched roof eventually
threw this, you can kind oftrace how it became a signifier
of a tropical ideal, right?
And so it ends up being a clichethat can then get slapped on a
building that then makes it sortof Caribbean architecture,
(25:40):
right?
Sort of removed from the nuancethat it it once had.
And so I think it then thenbecomes this sort of tourist
signal that then feels like it'sthe narrative behind is it's
either it's a tourist thing orit's a thing that's associated
(26:01):
with, okay, I'm just living in amud hut, right?
It's like a primitivearchitectural element.
And I think this idea ofreducing some of those um
traditional building practicesto something that's either on
one hand now become like atourist applique on a resort
building, or it's being reducedto something that is just seen
(26:26):
as quote unquote primitive, thenis the most misunderstood
because then we lose all of thelessons that we can learn from
the actual deeper meaning andclimate responsiveness of those
architectural elements and usingthat as a foundation for how we
can then build on it, usingmaybe contemporary technologies
(26:49):
and learn from those practicesto think about how we can
confront the challenges of thefuture.
So, for example, in Jamaica,there's an organization called
the Waterland Red EarthCollective.
Um, and what they're trying todo is think about preservation,
not just from a European, let'spreserve this fort over here, or
(27:11):
let's preserve this plantationgreat house over here, but how
can we think about preservingsome of these traditional
building practices that havebeen deemed as not worthy of
being preserving?
So they are looking at these150-year-old structures in St.
Elizabeth's in the south ofJamaica that use earth.
(27:36):
It's everything is coming fromthe land, um, the Spanish wall
techniques, earth, limestone,traditional ways of firing the
limestone using a lime kiln thatyou're building yourself,
thatching, and really learningfrom Master Masons, not well,
not Masons alone, but um, youknow, Mr.
(27:56):
Cummings, who we met when I tooksome students there, right?
He is um teaching us how tothatch and kind of passing on
those practices.
We learn to build the line kilnand the kind of labor and love
that went into that.
And then that line then goesinto mixing with the earth from
the land.
And, you know, I think theprocess alone, I think, was
(28:19):
really powerful.
But then seeing how thosepractices that are dying, but
they occur on this buildingthat's been standing for 150
years and withstood barrel thatjust passed and, you know,
devastated St.
Elizabeth's.
Um, you know, there's somethingto be learned about the fact
(28:40):
that this building using thesematerials that are from the land
is still there.
And yes, it needed patching, youknow, and then that's part of
the process, right?
But I feel like there'ssomething to be learned about
you coming in with the communitybecause we all help to patch um
some places that needed ummaintaining in the building.
SPEAKER_01 (29:03):
I wanted to pause here for a moment to offer some
quick context.
You just heard us discussbuildings that survived
Hurricane Barrel last year, butas many of you know, Hurricane
Melissa has completelydevastated the western part of
Jamaica as well as Cuba andAfrica.
In the aftermath of Melissa, oneof the 150-year-old Spanish
walling structures are at thewater and red earth, and
(29:32):
knowledge and we also have toacknowledge the larger 90% of
structures and area.
(30:00):
Organizations like the WearCollective and several other
community organizations workingtirelessly on the ground.
Please be sure to check out thelink in our bio.
Your help, no matter the size,goes a long way in rebuilding
what was lost.
SPEAKER_00 (30:18):
But I think, you know, organizations like that
are where I think the future ofCaribbean architecture could be
heading.
Like what can we learn aboutthis building?
But think about how we could usetechnologies to then expand on
some of these practices.
Instead of just sort ofbucketing these practices into
two bins, either it's now atourist cliche.
(30:40):
So I would never look at thatchbecause that's like something we
would see in a resort, orbucketing it as something that's
primitive and not durable,instead of thinking about how
you can expand on it in the inthe future.
SPEAKER_01 (30:54):
That definitely got to my next question in a way,
because as we've, you know,spoken, we've talked about
hurricanes and various otherinstances that have impacted us.
You know, you mentioned tenementyachts, right?
And people having zinc roofs andwhat all of these things sort of
encapsulate about us when itcomes to, you know, rural versus
(31:15):
urban, um, you know, climatechange and vulnerability,
economic status, etc.
I just sort of want us to dig alittle bit deeper to underscore
how Caribbean architecture can,or, you know, or you see it sort
of simultaneously addressingenvironmental concerns while
(31:35):
honoring the cultural,historical, social context of
individuals and of the region atlarge.
SPEAKER_00 (31:42):
Yeah, so um, as we all know, I think across the
Caribbean, uh, we contribute theleast greenhouse gas emissions.
I forget off the top of my headwhat the percentage is, but we
contribute very little comparedto, you know, kind of other
nations, but then are gonna beone of the most affected.
Um, and so that does open up alot of vulnerabilities.
(32:05):
And I know we mostly talk abouthurricanes, right, as sort of
the main um kind ofvulnerability, which we do need
to pay attention to.
But one of the things I've beenlooking at as well is that there
are other vulnerabilities suchas heat, extreme heat, and how
that ties into how we design andbuild, how we think about labor,
(32:26):
et cetera.
The Island City Lab in Jamaica,they had a really interesting
series in looking at the impactof heat and sort of urban
scapes, whether it's the needfor more trees and shelter, to
how that ties into labor and howwe need to start preparing for
that.
So, how does that relate tomaybe drought and farming and
(32:48):
agriculture and where what'sarchitecture's role within
within all of that?
So definitely architecture has aplace in thinking about the
vulnerabilities to climatechange.
But within that climate changevulnerability, there are all of
these other pressures that haveto be untangled.
So we have rapid urbanization,we have tourism-driven
(33:10):
development, which sometimes um,especially post-disaster, can
butt up against how we thinkabout development, housing
precarity, you know, so thereare all of these other
vulnerabilities that are also,you know, causing intense
pressure.
And um I think that goes back towhy we should maybe be looking
(33:32):
at um some of these otherbottom-up systems to help to
solve and respond to some ofthis crisis, right?
So how can incrementality thatis already happening anyway,
right, be maybe used a bit moreintentionally when we're
thinking about um urbanizationand how we how we think about
(33:54):
housing and providing housing topeople?
How can some of these locallysourced materials that have been
proven to be storm resistantthat honor these sort of
histories and social context,right?
So going back to the Jamaicaexample, the Spanish walling,
(34:14):
thatched roof techniques thatWaterland Red Earth, like
thinking about the earth as uhWaterland Daub as well, thinking
about the earth as a buildingmaterial, how can that be maybe
studied and improved upon toconfront some of the future
climate crises?
So I think there's a lot to belearned from these practices and
(34:36):
then improved upon.
I'm thinking about um VernelleNoel as well, as another
example.
Uh, she's a Trinidadianarchitect, and her work has
focused on computation um indesign.
So thinking about how we canbasically use robots to help us
build and um in a nutshell.
(34:58):
It's more complex than that, butin a nutshell.
But her work is, I think shecalls it situated computation.
So really thinking about we cantrain robots to um learn some of
these crafts and culturalpractices that may be dying.
So what I found the kind of themost interesting work was that
(35:18):
she was working with awirebender in Trinidad and kind
of trying to understand how thiscraft of wirebending for these
elaborate mass costumes wasdying, that craft was dying, and
thinking about how she couldcreate a code basically for this
craft practice and then teachthe robot, basically have robots
(35:40):
help with um kind of creatingthese structures.
So the goal was twofold.
One, that you can try and savethese crafts by understanding
them and then sort ofreplicating it and building on
it, but then two, that you canuse the technology to build on
it even more and maybe expand onit.
(36:01):
So I think her work is a reallyinteresting way to think about
how you could apply it to helpwith some of these threats to
the Caribbean, like building onthese practices, but infusing um
technology.
The last piece I would say is wetouched on a little bit before,
but maybe could be moreformalized into terms of policy,
(36:23):
is going back to that communityknowledge and really embracing
community knowledge as a um away to think about resilient
Caribbean architecture that canwithstand all of these threats,
um, including housing.
So there's an architect inPuerto Rico.
Um, her name is Omira RiveraCrespo.
(36:44):
She teaches at the University ofPuerto Rico.
And um, we all know that PuertoRico also was uh devastated by
Hurricane Maria.
And a lot of her work after thehurricane has been thinking
about what resilient housingmeans?
How can we think about housingif we're rebuilding, how is the
(37:05):
housing going to be resilient tothe next storm?
And she really went intocommunities and did a lot of
community engagement work.
So with community engagementwork, we are coming in as
architects and saying,community, you have the
knowledge, right?
We don't have the knowledgebecause you're living in this
community.
(37:25):
And that's the approach.
There's a lot of tools aroundparticipatory work where you're
trying to tease out and workwith the community to and
co-create designs and thinkabout their knowledge as being
the kind of forefront.
And so she did a lot of thatwork and found that resilient
housing in that context inPuerto Rico, in addition to you
(37:48):
know, the sort of more technicalaspects that will help it to
withstand the next storm, shefound that resilience wasn't
just about that technicalaspect.
It was very cultural andcommunity-based.
And so a lot of the prototypesended up being around
incrementality again and beingable to self setting up systems
for self-building and thinkingabout how instead of saying no,
(38:12):
you shouldn't be self-building,it's saying, hey, these are
maybe toolkits that can help youself-build in a way that the
detailing is going to be betterfor the next storm, right?
So I think some of that work wasimportant because it's honoring
those traditions, but improvingon them instead of saying, no,
(38:34):
you should not be doing this.
So I think those are just acouple of examples I think um we
can learn from and expand onwhen we're thinking about how to
confront all of these pressuresand vulnerabilities in our
region.
SPEAKER_01 (38:49):
I'm especially glad that you brought up policy
because I think in a lot ofways, you know, our populations
are certainly growing, changing,evolving.
But then between whether it's,you know, Jamaica or Puerto Rico
or any of our other islands,there have been several
conversations about access tolands and homes, right?
(39:10):
Um, who has the financial meansto own some of these homes?
And while that is maybe not anarchitecture um concerned,
right?
Because if if we're building,we're building, but also um it
changes the demand, right?
And then also in a lot of wayschanges design because still
(39:31):
some local people um have accessto lands to build to, you know,
continue to expand things andthe technologies um community
practices as you outlined forus.
Then uh we're just gonna getlike a bunch of new contemporary
housing that is owned by expats,and that's a whole another
conversation for another day.
(39:52):
But I think in a lot of ways,these these sort of what I'm
trying to say is all of thesethings work together very
seamlessly in ways that we don'talways consider more or less.
SPEAKER_00 (40:04):
Yeah, no, you're right.
And I think you brought up youit may may not be an
architectural problem, but Ithink land tenure and access to
land is um especially going backto the policy piece, right?
Because if you don't have theland to build, but and then
you're working within aframework that says, okay, you
need this title and you need XYZto then sort of formalize
(40:29):
things, then there's thatbarrier to even being able to
build.
And I think that's somethingthat's come up even in this
post-disaster context as well.
And we've seen that in a fewlocations where sort of what it
means to own a piece of land isnot necessarily formal.
See that in Puerto Rico withAmira's work, right?
(40:51):
And a lot of sort of legal aidorganizations where you know
land has been just handed downthrough generations.
And so you may not have a titlethat says, this is my land.
And we see that across theregion, right?
And so that has been a barrierto then quote unquote being able
to like formally uh kind ofbuild within the systems that
(41:15):
exist.
And I know in Puerto Rico theyhad to do a lot of work with all
of these legal aid um nonprofitorganizations to change some of
uh what FEMA, because they weretrying to get FEMA aid, how FEMA
was maybe counting oracknowledging ownership compared
to what actually existed on theground.
(41:36):
So even though it's not anarchitectural end, I think
there's a a place for architectswithin that conversation, as you
said, in terms of maybeadvocating for policy change,
especially when it comes to notjust land and housing after
disaster, but the impacts oftourism and what land is deemed
(41:57):
for the local population, andthen what land is deemed for the
tourist or the expat and speechaccess in some in some islands.
Um and you know, how we sort ofnavigating that.
I think it may not be a purelyarchitectural problem, but there
is a role for architects to be apart of pushing for policy
(42:19):
change.
Um, I always tell my studentsthat, you know, you should be
out there if you ever get anopportunity to be on a historic
preservation committee or azoning committee, or somebody
asks you to have a seat on thiscouncil, um, you should say yes
because that's where a lot ofthe um change is going to
(42:43):
happen.
Like sometimes we need to startwith the policy piece before we
get to all of the architecturalpiece.
So I try to encourage mystudents to really get active
politically if they if they everhave the opportunity or interest
to think about change on thatlevel.
SPEAKER_01 (42:59):
Certainly.
I think you know, we can'tunderscore particularly beach
access, um, which is a bigproblem throughout the region.
And how, you know, resorts havethat's that is a future episode.
So our listeners are definitelycontested beach, yeah, always.
(43:20):
Um, I uh definitely do, youknow, want to shift a little bit
because I always ask thisquestion of our guests, but I
think because our episode todayis focused on architecture, I
won't necessarily frame it inthe same way, although you can
feel free to answer it uhwhichever way that you'd like.
But I usually love to hear fromour guests where their you know
(43:41):
favorite ways that ourconversation shows up in popular
culture.
Um, and that could be, you know,through music, through songs,
um, etc., through books, butalso I I think, you know, just
definitely given your expertisewith the region.
Um, this could also be sort ofyour favorite um, you know,
buildings or however you youseem fit to define architecture
(44:03):
in the region, um, some of yourfavorite examples and how you
think they really showcase theregion in a beautiful light.
SPEAKER_00 (44:11):
Um, I have a couple.
I I think ranging fromliterature, so love uh Jamaica
Kincaids, a small place, becauseyou know, she talks about
Antigua.
Um and that has been a veryfamous one on the show.
Yes.
Um, and I think I mean itresonates for me in some of the
(44:31):
uh relationships between tourismand um the built environment and
but also some of thesestereotypes around people and
place.
Um, so I'd say from literaturethere, um, I know Derek Walcott
he meant he meant mentionsarchitecture, maybe not as
explicitly, but maybe asmetaphors around memory and
(44:53):
colonial legacy.
Um, but I think in terms of umsome of my favorite spaces, most
recently, because I took somestudents to Jamaica last spring,
and that resonated with how wecan think about memory and
history um in downtown Kingston.
So it was the Kingston CreativeCollective and the Waterlane
(45:16):
Murals, which I think is aninteresting pop culture example
because now it's like Instagramspot, right?
And video spot.
But I think there's a storythere about how you're kind of
overlaying this art and muralsover this colonial fabric that's
creating this new identity, aplace-making, a sense of place
(45:39):
that people now want to come to.
So I think it's really powerful,even though I know some people
may dismiss it as just, oh, it'slike Instagram place, but I
think that also helps to bring anew story to the forefront than
just the sort of sunse sandnarrative, right?
So that resonates with me aswell as a kind of pop culture.
(46:00):
And if there's tons of spacesimilar types of spaces where
art and architecture and theurban environment sort of
intersect across the region.
And so those are the types ofspaces that I find um super
interesting and powerful andmaybe speak to how we can
envision the envision thefuture.
SPEAKER_01 (46:19):
I agree.
I'm a big fan of KingstonCreative, and I think it blends
well with, you know, our pastand the our present and even
future, right?
Um, the work that they're doingin terms of preservation, of as
you said, the murals upholding,you know, various figures in
Jamaican history, et cetera, um,and still making it sort of, you
(46:41):
know, design and what we in ourcan sort of contemporary sense.
SPEAKER_00 (46:45):
So yeah, and I think it's like even the power of art
to change, because I on thatsame tour, we went down to Fleet
Street and looked at some of themurals there as well.
And so I think there's a lotthere around art architecture
space that I find really, reallyinteresting, um, that also feels
sort of community-driven, whichis as as you could see from this
(47:05):
conversation been a been aninterest of mine.
And and I know that's thosethere's like similar initiatives
across the Caribbean.
So those are the types of thingsthat I find interesting.
SPEAKER_01 (47:16):
Um, for my final question, I think, you know,
just for us considering thebalance between preservation of
history and historicalarchitecture.
Um, we have indigenousity,modernity, all these things that
we have to consider.
Um, what are sort of some ofyour recommendations for
maintaining a sense of culturalidentity in our architecture?
(47:38):
And how do you envision thefuture of Caribbean architecture
as it continues to negotiate allof these things, whether that be
aesthetics, history, identity,climate, realities, et cetera?
SPEAKER_00 (47:51):
Yeah.
So I think I would say maybepreserving, thinking about how
we preserve practices, right?
Um, as opposed to just theimage, right?
Because I think if you thinkabout preservation through a
more practice lens, you begin tounderstand more depth within
what should or shouldn't bepreserved.
Um, even some of the kind ofmodernist um examples across the
(48:16):
region, right?
There's so much sort of historyand um kind of narrative behind
some of those buildings, right?
Like tropical modern buildingsin Jamaica were thinking about,
and across the Caribbean, we'rethinking about how do we
represent ourselves and thinkabout our identity
post-independence.
And it was about shedding acolonial past.
(48:37):
So architects like Colin Lairdand um Wilson Chung, and you
know, sort of all of theseCaribbean architects that were
really thinking about howarchitecture could shed the
colonial past post-independence,right?
You could see how if I werelooking at preservation through
that lens and not just the sortof aesthetic of it all or the
postcard of it all, it may helpto challenge why maybe certain
(49:01):
modernist buildings that may notbe sort of deemed as historic in
through the colonial lens, maybeworthy of preserving because of
what they meant politically, butalso how they operated in terms
of the climate.
So I would say if you'rethinking about preserving the
practice, it may open up newways of thinking about
(49:22):
preservation that are beyondjust typically what gets
preserved in terms of sort ofthese colonial architectures.
It may help to expand it oneither end of the spectrum.
Um, and then I think that alsoopens up ways to think about how
these practices could evolve inthe future because we can learn
from them, and then think aboutyou know technological advances
(49:45):
in in the future.
So, yeah, I think that's a goodway to tie in identity while
embracing innovation becauseyou're focused on the practice,
not just the image or thepostcard.
SPEAKER_01 (49:56):
Thank you so much for sharing.
I think I tremendously learned alot from our conversation, just
sort of beyond what I think isalready out there and helping us
to really underscore andunderstand ultimately what
architecture from our ownperspective looks like.
Um, and the really key and youknow integral part of
(50:18):
maintaining that for futuregenerations, for who we are and
how we continue to evolve.
So thank you so much, ProfessorDoom, for joining us.
Yes, it was great having you forour listeners point.
I will be sure to you know linkthe books of of various
resources and other work outthere that's being done on our
(50:40):
website.
Um if you have any furtherquestions on Caribbean
Architecture, feel free to sendus a DM or at CircleFacts Pod,
all over social media, and letus know what you thought.
And so uh till next time, wehope you enjoyed.
Thanks for tuning in atCircleFacts.
Visit circlefaxpodcast.com formore information for each
(51:01):
episode.
Follow us at circlefaxpod onInstagram and Facebook and at
circlefax on Twitter.
Hello everyone.
Before we begin, I wanted to adda quick note.
This conversation on Caribbeanarchitecture was recorded prior
to Hurricane Mark's impactedseveral islands across the
region.
We of course still wanted toshare this episode, especially
because the subject matter feelseven more relevant in Martha's
aftermath.
(00:20):
I wanted to clarify why therecent events were not
specifically mentioned.
We're keeping everyone affectedin our thoughts and prayers, and
as always, we'll continue usingStrictly Facts to highlight the
strength and resilience ofcarbean people everywhere.
Now, let's get to the episode.
Welcome to Strictly Facts, aguide to carape and history and
culture, hosted by me, AlexanderMiller.
(00:44):
Crickly Facts teaches thehistory, politics, and activism
of the caroter and connectingcontemporary music and popular
culture.
Hello, hello everyone.
Welcome to another episode ofCrickly Facts and Guide to
Caribbean History and Culture,where we explore the history,
(01:04):
cultures, and spaces that shapethe Caribbean.
After speaking a kind of stuffthat are, you know, really
wanting for this discussion.
Today we are turning ourattention to Caribbean
architecture, a form ofexpression that tells us as much
about social structures,history, and identity as it does
about aesthetics.
(01:28):
It's like by indigenousknowledge, European colonial
legacies, African traditions, ofcourse, our papers from
Catholics of Asia oftentimes,and the practical demands of the
island's life and the ways thatwe take up space.
It carries the marks ofcolonialism from the imposition
(01:51):
of European styles, but alsomore recently the ways that
urban and rural spaces weredesigned to allow us to live on
these lands.
And at the same time, it hasbeen checked by creativity,
resilience, and adaptation,blending cultural influences
into something unique likeCaribbean.
This episode will explain howarchitecture in Caribbean is not
(02:13):
only a lens into the past, butalso a way to understand
contemporary challenges from thepressures of tourism and global
stereotypes of the region to anurgent need for climate
resilience through design.
We will discuss many of thesethings, and so I am really
grateful to have ProfessorDahlia Ndu joining us.
(02:35):
She is the visiting associateprofessor at the University of
Illinois Urbana Champaignjoining us.
Thank you so much again forjoining us for this episode.
Why don't you kick us off alittle bit with telling our
listeners a little bit moreabout who you are, your
connection to the Caribbean,which of course I'm hoping
you're excited to share a littlebit about, and of course, what
(02:56):
inspired your interest inCaribbean architecture?
SPEAKER_00 (02:58):
Okay, great.
My name is Dahlia Endum.
I'm an architect, researcher,and educator.
And I think kind of holisticallymy work centers on climate
change, climate justice,housing, and identity in the
Caribbean.
So I think your intro reallyencapsulates a lot of my
interests in the nuances ofCaribbean architecture, right?
(03:19):
I'm interested in it more thanjust a building and the
aesthetics of it all.
Really interested in how itembodies and it's a vessel for
culture, memory, resilience,power, identity, and sort of all
these intersections of cultural,social, and sort of political
dynamics that help to shape thearchitecture.
(03:41):
So that's kind of where my worklies.
How I got to that is I'm bornand raised in Antigua.
So, you know, I've been in theUS for over 20 years now, left
for college, so spent my entirechildhood in Antigua.
And so I always say, no matterhow long I've been in the US,
Antigua will always be home forme.
(04:04):
My family's still there.
I still go back often, andthat's where I call, you know,
my home.
But I think growing up, I wasalways interested in design.
You know, I I enjoyed art.
Um, and architecture just seemedlike a really fascinating way to
think about how you can sort ofmanifest your creativity into
(04:26):
the world in this kind oftangible way.
And that's kind of where itstarted, just this idea that
your creativity could have animpact in the world.
Um, and then as I got older andstarted to understand that
architecture is more than just,you know, this kind of
aesthetics, it really can shapehow we live, it shapes how we
use space, it can separatepeople, it can bring people
(04:48):
together.
Like it's so much embodied inarchitecture, and it really has
a huge impact on our lives, andthat really solidified my
interest in architecture beyondjust the sort of aesthetics of
it as a building.
And then related to Caribbeanarchitecture, it was more about
just trying to understand thenuances of the architecture of
(05:11):
where I grew up.
So I was educated in the US forboth undergrad and grad school,
and uh not once were we lookingat Caribbean architecture as a
sort of model of architecturethat should be studied.
Um, my education was through aEuropean lens and studying
everything from Greek and Romansort of classical architecture
(05:35):
all the way to cabusier andmodern sort of ideals, but from
that kind of Eurocentric lens.
And I always questioned (05:44):
well, there is um value to be had in
studying Caribbean architecture,right?
And I started to question why weweren't studying it in the way
that we were studying all ofthese other sort of
architectural traditions.
So once I graduated and got intoacademia, um, that's where I
(06:05):
found my niche, like wanting toadd to the body of work and
critical understanding ofCaribbean architecture outside,
you know, the sort of glossypostcard images that we tend to
see.
So that's sort of my overview ofhow I got here.
And um yeah, excited to continuethis work, especially as the
(06:26):
Caribbean, you know, is facing,you know, challenges of climate
change, etc.
SPEAKER_01 (06:30):
Thank you so much for sharing some more just about
basically, you know, how you'vetransitioned from um learning
about architecture into, youknow, being in this space today.
I definitely want to kick us offin terms of our conversation,
really underscoring this factthat I, you know, mentioned in
the intro, and it's that, youknow, there are so many
(06:52):
influences that have checked ourhistory, which I've talked about
several times, right?
But particularly when it comesto thinking about the design
layout, you know, architecturalspace of the Caribbean I don't
want to say it's largely um beenimpacted by colonization, but I
I mean we can't underscore that.
Um, of course, you know, thereare many ways that our
(07:15):
indigenous influences or Africaninfluences are Asian influences
have helped to underscore who weare.
But I think in a lot of wayswhen we think of maybe
immediately when we think ofarchitecture, we think of, you
know, buildings and churches andcourthouses that have been like,
you know, steeples of this hasbeen here since 1700, whatever,
(07:35):
and you know, all of thesethings, you definitely do think
about the impact of colonizationin the region.
And so for you, just sort of indoing this work, how have you
sort of underscored theimportance of European colonial
powers and influencing Caribbeanarchitecture and how have their
design sort of impacted the wayCaribbean people take up space
(08:00):
or even how Caribbean space isperceived?
SPEAKER_00 (08:02):
Yeah, that's a great question.
I think um a lot of my work hascentered around imagery, right?
So it's kind of the oppositekind of analysis.
Instead of studying thebuildings themselves, it's
studying how the buildings wererepresented and what was chosen
to be represented and what wasconcealed, what was revealed.
And um that work sort of builtoff of other scholars,
(08:26):
historians that have studiedimagery and how it's helped to
frame this exotic sort of Gardenof Eden narrative across the
Caribbean.
So, for example, Krista Thomasin her work, An I for the
Tropics, you know, really umunderstood um imagery landscapes
and how the body was representedwithin those landscapes and how
(08:48):
people were represented in thoselandscapes and what was
concealed and revealed.
And so I was interested in howdoes that start to speak to
architecture and howarchitecture was represented,
and then how does that start toframe an understanding of the
dominance of certain narrativesof architecture in the
Caribbean?
So through that work and sort ofunpacking all of the nuances of
(09:12):
Caribbean architecture, right?
We see that there was sort ofthis deliberate construction of
imagery to promote um sort ofcolonial ideals, right?
So we know that architecture hasmeaning, right?
When the Spanish came, then theBritish, et cetera, there was
this notion that indigenousarchitectural practices were not
(09:34):
deemed as sort of on par withtheir kind of architectural
styles.
So, for example, the British,they would sort of bring their
architectural styles fromBritain wholesale, even though
they may not have been suited tothe climate, um, because they
were a symbol of sort ofcolonial dominance over this
(09:54):
space, right?
You know, a lot of the GeorgianGothic revival styles that we
see in courthouses and umchurches and forts were about
symbols of power and dominance,right?
And so images of that alsoperpetuated that, right?
So we have this idea of imagesbeing used for specific
(10:16):
narratives and then thearchitecture as well being used
for specific um narratives.
And so, you know, you begin tosee this idea of the images and
the architecture being used toreinforce a certain ideal that
ended up sort of pushingindigenous vernacular African
practices to the background.
(10:37):
And so a lot of my work hastried to track that physically
in how architecture is developedin spaces, but also through
imagery.
So what I found I used Jamaicaas a case study, and what I
found was that even from 18thcentury plantation paintings by
James Haquewell, we see theprominence of these sort of
(10:59):
plantation structures that wereum sort of Georgian
architectural styles, and then,but in this sort of glorified
picturesque landscape, right?
That then started to tell acertain story of um the
plantation as a place that wasremoved from death, disease, and
(11:19):
the horrors of slavery.
And this was happening at a timeof abolitionist movement in
Britain.
And so you begin to see how theimage and the architecture
together were a way to try totell a certain story, a kind of
propaganda about what was reallyhappening.
And within a lot of thoseimages, the homes of the
enslaved laborers were sort ofhidden and concealed.
(11:43):
And then that started to shiftafter emancipation, where we
begin to see um homes that werereally suited to the climate.
They were very economical.
Um, they were some of the firsthomes of free people built out
of wood with jealousy windows,you know, some of the things
that we see today that arereally climatically responsive,
(12:07):
um, I argue have started to thenbe branded as this exotic.
They started to show up inpostcards, the kind of thatched
roof structure that once againwas very climatically responsive
to the environment, um, startedto then be wielded in a way to
promote tourism.
This is kind of a stage set orbackdrop.
(12:28):
So, once again, even though nowwe're seeing more of these
indigenous and vernacularpractices sort of being more
visible in these images, theywere still being used as a way,
sort of be manipulated in thiscase for tourism, um, as part of
the kind of colonial narrativethat was being shaped at that
time around sand, sea, sand,this kind of exotic narrative.
(12:51):
So I think those are some of thefirst instances where you begin
to get this exotic narrativebeing branded that now is a mix
of these colonial architectures,but also some of the things that
have become cliched now, like athatched roof, for example.
So it's it's very nuanced thatcolonial inference.
(13:12):
It manifested in the actual sortof colonial architecture, but I
think it also manifested in howcolonial powers were shaping
narratives.
SPEAKER_01 (13:22):
I mean, I also thought of an eye for the
tropics as we were setting thisup.
In a lot of ways, you know, youyou bring a very interesting
paradox because, of course, asyou outlined for us, right?
There there has been put on asort of you know exoticized
version of who the reaction is,um, who our people are, etc.
(13:42):
But the flip side of that is,you know, the starting point.
I don't know if I want to say itthat way, um, are from, you
know, our indigenous uhknowledges, our indigenous
practices, right?
Um, as a result of, you know,enslaved labor, disventured
servitude, et cetera.
And so I think basically thereare just, you know, so many ways
(14:03):
that Caribbean architecture hasuh maybe this is more so a
question for you in terms ofwhat do you define as Caribbean
architecture, but you know, Ithink there is a discrepancy as
you've outlined between uh whatthings have been put onto us,
sort of what things are innatelyours.
And so, you know, in terms ofsome of your work uh that has
(14:24):
looked at housing, I think thatis a very interesting way to
sort of look at how have we sortof claimed our own land
sometimes when when you're homeor whether it's on social media,
I have seen people build houses,you know, from blocks and cement
and think this is thearchitecture in a lot of ways,
right, that we don't highlightbecause uh there is this uh, you
(14:48):
know, top-down or sort of rightdefinition of architecture.
And we don't necessarily alwaysconsider um some of these other
ways that architecture canreally manifest.
And I found that sort of throughyour your own research about
housing really interestingbecause it is one of those ways
that we can define um innatelywhat our own architecture looks
(15:10):
like.
And so maybe the question is foryou um, how would you define
Caribbean architecture?
And then also, you know, throughyour work on housing, um, how do
you sort of see it maybedistinct from or um offering us
a different lens to considerwhat is, you know, innately
Caribbean architecture?
SPEAKER_00 (15:30):
That's a good question.
Um I would start with whatCaribbean architecture is not.
Um I think it's not a monolith,it's very nuanced, right?
And I think going back to someof that imagery and how it's
kind of flattened the Caribbeanas sort of one monolith.
I know we do we say we're oneCaribbean, which is you know
(15:51):
this sense of community, but umthe architecture is so nuanced
across um the islands based onthat history of colonization,
based on um economic, social,political issues, like and how
those all sort of come together.
So it is very nuanced, but Ithink um if I had to kind of
(16:11):
define um, you know, a kind of abroad definition, I would say it
is about climateappropriateness, climate
responsiveness, ingenuity.
Um, and then it's reallygrounded, and I in I think
domestic ritual, if we're we'respeaking about the housing um
(16:32):
component, and it's definitelygrounded in deaconship systems,
um, values, culture, et cetera.
So I think there's the sort oftangible aspect in terms of how
the construction practices, etcetera.
But then I think it's alsogrounded in maybe ways that we
live or want to be with others.
(16:54):
And so, for example, with a lotof the housing work, like you're
right, that's I the way Iapproach it, it's trying to
understand that bottom-upapproach and understanding that
community knowledge is actuallymore important than maybe my
professional knowledge, right?
That, you know, going into acommunity, the community knows
(17:17):
sort of their challenges andissues and how they may have
responded architecturally to itthat may be different from how I
would respond to it.
And so I often kind of approachan understanding of Caribbean
architecture through that lens.
But yeah, it also values maybewhat's considered as informality
in some spheres that may not bedeemed as quote unquote worthy
(17:43):
of studying because of thatlabeling of informality, right?
But within that, there's a lotto be learned, right?
There's about how people live,how they may choose to
self-build or add on to theirstructures as they go along,
what construction practices theymay have been employing to get
(18:04):
that to work, what techniquesand local materials, right, that
were maybe of the land that mayhave been employed.
And so within that sort of umincremental self-built housing,
I think you can find a lot ofunderstanding of climate
practices, cultural practices,um, maybe around family
(18:28):
expansion in the future, yourneeds, your economic needs
changing in the future, economicnecessity.
There's so much sort of wrappedup in that, like around
adaptability, um, memory,community.
There's so much there.
And I think to your point aboutthat like bottom-up versus
top-down, I think we often sortof, in terms of academia, don't
(18:50):
study what may not be consideredarchitecture with a capital A,
but is in fact there's a lot youcan learn, especially as we
confront um the climate crisis.
So I think um that's sort ofwhere I've been approaching my
work.
So a project that I'm about toexpand on is just getting
started is looking at sort ofpost-disaster housing and trying
(19:15):
to understand how people mayhave sort of adapted to housing
that was built and sort of givento them and made their own and
how they define home withinthese spaces that may have just
been given to them and they maynot have had a say in how that
home would have been shaped.
(19:36):
And I think there's a lot youcan learn from how Juan would
adapt to a space that maybe theydidn't have that hand in, and
then trying to understand wherethat incrementality, so a lot
of, for example, in Dominica,um, a lot of housing after it
was Irma or Maria, because youknow, those were back to back.
Um, a lot of the housing wascore housing, where you get the
(20:00):
core and then you can add onafter, right?
As your means allow.
And so trying to understand whatwere some of the decisions and
how people chose to add on ornot, how have they been uh sort
of uh navigating thatpost-disaster recovery?
So it's really looking at someof these everyday practices, but
(20:20):
within that, trying tounderstand well, how does you
know, sort of other sort ofcultural ideas of kinship,
community, et cetera, start tofilter into maybe some of those
decisions.
So it's really looking at a lotof those more local material
practices and communityknowledge and not necessarily um
(20:43):
the sort of architecture with acapital A, as I as I call it.
SPEAKER_01 (20:47):
That's a great point because I think, you know, as
you pointed out, our historygoes into how we build our
financials, our economy, youknow, certainly goes into how we
build.
I mean, even, you know, yourpoint on the way that we build
houses oftentimes where it's youknow, granny or whoever is in
(21:08):
Farin and we're sending moneyback home to exactly, you know,
room by room builders.
Yes, to build our our houses andthings like that.
I mean, in many ways, right,when we sort of like look at the
catch 22 of it, it's like thereis the obvious like mortgage
approach to getting a house, butthat's not necessarily feasible
for everyone, right?
(21:28):
Um what does it then look likefor us to have this approach to
building our houses?
Um, but then you know, it mighttake a little bit longer, but at
the end of it, you're also, youknow, not you don't have a
30-year mortgage or exactly allof these things.
SPEAKER_00 (21:44):
So yeah, yeah.
And I agree, like there's valuein understanding that, right?
Whereas I think sometimes wethink there's not value in
understanding that.
And even within that, you talkabout like the remittances and
sending money back home, butlike there's also nuances, even
of like land tenure and landownership within that, right?
Um, I've been looking at Barbudaum and Barbuda's sort of
(22:07):
communal land practices thathave been sort of uprooted after
um Hurricane Irma, and um, andthen the tensions there with
tourism and development, um, andhow housing and architecture
sort of all fits into that.
But even when you kind of digdown into thinking about
community and how that manifestsitself architecturally across
(22:30):
these different types, like theyards, like in Jamaica, right?
You have the yards or familycompounds, and even in
Barbieuda, we're thinking aboutsome of these communal land
practices, what has that meantfor how housing developed and
how the architecture developedbecause of this kind of communal
land.
Um, you know, and the list goeson, like how is maintenance and
repair done, and like the ideaof porches and shutters and
(22:53):
things like that that may have aclimatic response.
To summarize, you know, I thinkthis sort of incrementality or
informality is often deemedmaybe chaotic or not worthy of
studying, but I think there's alot to be learned that we can
then use to think about moreformal architectures, but
(23:14):
there's a lot to be learnedthere, especially because it is
still climatically responsive,it's social bonds, et cetera, et
cetera.
SPEAKER_01 (23:23):
I think that brings me to another point that I
definitely wanted to sort ofunderscore in our conversation,
because as we were sort ofalluding to, you know, European,
Georgian styles, et cetera, ofarchitecture that were brought
to the Caribbean, they might nothave been as fully suited for
our region, for our climate.
Um, that also even like weavesinto other conversations that
(23:46):
we've had on the podcast aboutstyle of dress, right?
And thinking of like Manley'sKariba suit, why were we wearing
three-piece suits in a placethat is 90 degrees?
Like, you know, uh and so theseconversations I think really
helped to shift these narrativesabout what matters, um, what
doesn't matter, who they matterto, right?
(24:07):
Um, and even thinking about theappeal of tourism as well, which
you've alluded to, right?
That for a lot of our islands,tourism is such a big part of
the money that we make.
And, you know, where are thediscrepancies between uh some of
the the lands, some of the, youknow, heritage sites and things
(24:28):
like that that are deemed asprotected, but then, you know,
thinking of not only theatrocities that have happened in
some of these sites, but also,you know, uh whose names are
really heralded when we think ofthem.
And so uh when you're sort ofunpacking this sort of
understanding of Caribbeanarchitecture for yourself
through your work, what do youthink is sort of most uh
(24:50):
unappreciated or misunderstoodwhen sort of viewed from this,
you know, Capital A architectureperspective?
SPEAKER_00 (25:00):
Yes, uh that's a good question.
I think um it kind of goes backto that conversation around sort
of local vernacular buildingpractices.
I think due to tourism and someof that imagery that I talked
about earlier, um, we'd begin tosee some of those because they
(25:20):
have become exoticized, right?
So my research talked about howthe thatched roof eventually
threw this, you can kind oftrace how it became a signifier
of a tropical ideal, right?
And so it ends up being a clichethat can then get slapped on a
building that then makes it sortof Caribbean architecture,
(25:40):
right?
Sort of removed from the nuancethat it it once had.
And so I think it then thenbecomes this sort of tourist
signal that then feels like it'sthe narrative behind is it's
either it's a tourist thing orit's a thing that's associated
(26:01):
with, okay, I'm just living in amud hut, right?
It's like a primitivearchitectural element.
And I think this idea ofreducing some of those um
traditional building practicesto something that's either on
one hand now become like atourist applique on a resort
building, or it's being reducedto something that is just seen
(26:26):
as quote unquote primitive, thenis the most misunderstood
because then we lose all of thelessons that we can learn from
the actual deeper meaning andclimate responsiveness of those
architectural elements and usingthat as a foundation for how we
can then build on it, usingmaybe contemporary technologies
(26:49):
and learn from those practicesto think about how we can
confront the challenges of thefuture.
So, for example, in Jamaica,there's an organization called
the Waterland Red EarthCollective.
Um, and what they're trying todo is think about preservation,
not just from a European, let'spreserve this fort over here, or
(27:11):
let's preserve this plantationgreat house over here, but how
can we think about preservingsome of these traditional
building practices that havebeen deemed as not worthy of
being preserving?
So they are looking at these150-year-old structures in St.
Elizabeth's in the south ofJamaica that use earth.
(27:36):
It's everything is coming fromthe land, um, the Spanish wall
techniques, earth, limestone,traditional ways of firing the
limestone using a lime kiln thatyou're building yourself,
thatching, and really learningfrom Master Masons, not well,
not Masons alone, but um, youknow, Mr.
(27:56):
Cummings, who we met when I tooksome students there, right?
He is um teaching us how tothatch and kind of passing on
those practices.
We learn to build the line kilnand the kind of labor and love
that went into that.
And then that line then goesinto mixing with the earth from
the land.
And, you know, I think theprocess alone, I think, was
(28:19):
really powerful.
But then seeing how thosepractices that are dying, but
they occur on this buildingthat's been standing for 150
years and withstood barrel thatjust passed and, you know,
devastated St.
Elizabeth's.
Um, you know, there's somethingto be learned about the fact
(28:40):
that this building using thesematerials that are from the land
is still there.
And yes, it needed patching, youknow, and then that's part of
the process, right?
But I feel like there'ssomething to be learned about
you coming in with the communitybecause we all help to patch um
some places that needed ummaintaining in the building.
SPEAKER_01 (29:03):
I wanted to pause here for a moment to offer some
quick context.
You just heard us discussbuildings that survived
Hurricane Barrel last year, butas many of you know, Hurricane
Melissa has completelydevastated the western part of
Jamaica as well as Cuba andAfrica.
In the aftermath of Melissa, oneof the 150-year-old Spanish
walling structures are at thewater and red earth, and
(29:32):
knowledge and we also have toacknowledge the larger 90% of
structures and area.
(30:00):
Organizations like the WearCollective and several other
community organizations workingtirelessly on the ground.
Please be sure to check out thelink in our bio.
Your help, no matter the size,goes a long way in rebuilding
what was lost.
SPEAKER_00 (30:18):
But I think, you know, organizations like that
are where I think the future ofCaribbean architecture could be
heading.
Like what can we learn aboutthis building?
But think about how we could usetechnologies to then expand on
some of these practices.
Instead of just sort ofbucketing these practices into
two bins, either it's now atourist cliche.
(30:40):
So I would never look at thatchbecause that's like something we
would see in a resort, orbucketing it as something that's
primitive and not durable,instead of thinking about how
you can expand on it in the inthe future.
SPEAKER_01 (30:54):
That definitely got to my next question in a way,
because as we've, you know,spoken, we've talked about
hurricanes and various otherinstances that have impacted us.
You know, you mentioned tenementyachts, right?
And people having zinc roofs andwhat all of these things sort of
encapsulate about us when itcomes to, you know, rural versus
(31:15):
urban, um, you know, climatechange and vulnerability,
economic status, etc.
I just sort of want us to dig alittle bit deeper to underscore
how Caribbean architecture can,or, you know, or you see it sort
of simultaneously addressingenvironmental concerns while
(31:35):
honoring the cultural,historical, social context of
individuals and of the region atlarge.
SPEAKER_00 (31:42):
Yeah, so um, as we all know, I think across the
Caribbean, uh, we contribute theleast greenhouse gas emissions.
I forget off the top of my headwhat the percentage is, but we
contribute very little comparedto, you know, kind of other
nations, but then are gonna beone of the most affected.
Um, and so that does open up alot of vulnerabilities.
(32:05):
And I know we mostly talk abouthurricanes, right, as sort of
the main um kind ofvulnerability, which we do need
to pay attention to.
But one of the things I've beenlooking at as well is that there
are other vulnerabilities suchas heat, extreme heat, and how
that ties into how we design andbuild, how we think about labor,
(32:26):
et cetera.
The Island City Lab in Jamaica,they had a really interesting
series in looking at the impactof heat and sort of urban
scapes, whether it's the needfor more trees and shelter, to
how that ties into labor and howwe need to start preparing for
that.
So, how does that relate tomaybe drought and farming and
(32:48):
agriculture and where what'sarchitecture's role within
within all of that?
So definitely architecture has aplace in thinking about the
vulnerabilities to climatechange.
But within that climate changevulnerability, there are all of
these other pressures that haveto be untangled.
So we have rapid urbanization,we have tourism-driven
(33:10):
development, which sometimes um,especially post-disaster, can
butt up against how we thinkabout development, housing
precarity, you know, so thereare all of these other
vulnerabilities that are also,you know, causing intense
pressure.
And um I think that goes back towhy we should maybe be looking
(33:32):
at um some of these otherbottom-up systems to help to
solve and respond to some ofthis crisis, right?
So how can incrementality thatis already happening anyway,
right, be maybe used a bit moreintentionally when we're
thinking about um urbanizationand how we how we think about
(33:54):
housing and providing housing topeople?
How can some of these locallysourced materials that have been
proven to be storm resistantthat honor these sort of
histories and social context,right?
So going back to the Jamaicaexample, the Spanish walling,
(34:14):
thatched roof techniques thatWaterland Red Earth, like
thinking about the earth as uhWaterland Daub as well, thinking
about the earth as a buildingmaterial, how can that be maybe
studied and improved upon toconfront some of the future
climate crises?
So I think there's a lot to belearned from these practices and
(34:36):
then improved upon.
I'm thinking about um VernelleNoel as well, as another
example.
Uh, she's a Trinidadianarchitect, and her work has
focused on computation um indesign.
So thinking about how we canbasically use robots to help us
build and um in a nutshell.
(34:58):
It's more complex than that, butin a nutshell.
But her work is, I think shecalls it situated computation.
So really thinking about we cantrain robots to um learn some of
these crafts and culturalpractices that may be dying.
So what I found the kind of themost interesting work was that
(35:18):
she was working with awirebender in Trinidad and kind
of trying to understand how thiscraft of wirebending for these
elaborate mass costumes wasdying, that craft was dying, and
thinking about how she couldcreate a code basically for this
craft practice and then teachthe robot, basically have robots
(35:40):
help with um kind of creatingthese structures.
So the goal was twofold.
One, that you can try and savethese crafts by understanding
them and then sort ofreplicating it and building on
it, but then two, that you canuse the technology to build on
it even more and maybe expand onit.
(36:01):
So I think her work is a reallyinteresting way to think about
how you could apply it to helpwith some of these threats to
the Caribbean, like building onthese practices, but infusing um
technology.
The last piece I would say is wetouched on a little bit before,
but maybe could be moreformalized into terms of policy,
(36:23):
is going back to that communityknowledge and really embracing
community knowledge as a um away to think about resilient
Caribbean architecture that canwithstand all of these threats,
um, including housing.
So there's an architect inPuerto Rico.
Um, her name is Omira RiveraCrespo.
(36:44):
She teaches at the University ofPuerto Rico.
And um, we all know that PuertoRico also was uh devastated by
Hurricane Maria.
And a lot of her work after thehurricane has been thinking
about what resilient housingmeans?
How can we think about housingif we're rebuilding, how is the
(37:05):
housing going to be resilient tothe next storm?
And she really went intocommunities and did a lot of
community engagement work.
So with community engagementwork, we are coming in as
architects and saying,community, you have the
knowledge, right?
We don't have the knowledgebecause you're living in this
community.
(37:25):
And that's the approach.
There's a lot of tools aroundparticipatory work where you're
trying to tease out and workwith the community to and
co-create designs and thinkabout their knowledge as being
the kind of forefront.
And so she did a lot of thatwork and found that resilient
housing in that context inPuerto Rico, in addition to you
(37:48):
know, the sort of more technicalaspects that will help it to
withstand the next storm, shefound that resilience wasn't
just about that technicalaspect.
It was very cultural andcommunity-based.
And so a lot of the prototypesended up being around
incrementality again and beingable to self setting up systems
for self-building and thinkingabout how instead of saying no,
(38:12):
you shouldn't be self-building,it's saying, hey, these are
maybe toolkits that can help youself-build in a way that the
detailing is going to be betterfor the next storm, right?
So I think some of that work wasimportant because it's honoring
those traditions, but improvingon them instead of saying, no,
(38:34):
you should not be doing this.
So I think those are just acouple of examples I think um we
can learn from and expand onwhen we're thinking about how to
confront all of these pressuresand vulnerabilities in our
region.
SPEAKER_01 (38:49):
I'm especially glad that you brought up policy
because I think in a lot ofways, you know, our populations
are certainly growing, changing,evolving.
But then between whether it's,you know, Jamaica or Puerto Rico
or any of our other islands,there have been several
conversations about access tolands and homes, right?
(39:10):
Um, who has the financial meansto own some of these homes?
And while that is maybe not anarchitecture um concerned,
right?
Because if if we're building,we're building, but also um it
changes the demand, right?
And then also in a lot of wayschanges design because still
(39:31):
some local people um have accessto lands to build to, you know,
continue to expand things andthe technologies um community
practices as you outlined forus.
Then uh we're just gonna getlike a bunch of new contemporary
housing that is owned by expats,and that's a whole another
conversation for another day.
(39:52):
But I think in a lot of ways,these these sort of what I'm
trying to say is all of thesethings work together very
seamlessly in ways that we don'talways consider more or less.
SPEAKER_00 (40:04):
Yeah, no, you're right.
And I think you brought up youit may may not be an
architectural problem, but Ithink land tenure and access to
land is um especially going backto the policy piece, right?
Because if you don't have theland to build, but and then
you're working within aframework that says, okay, you
need this title and you need XYZto then sort of formalize
(40:29):
things, then there's thatbarrier to even being able to
build.
And I think that's somethingthat's come up even in this
post-disaster context as well.
And we've seen that in a fewlocations where sort of what it
means to own a piece of land isnot necessarily formal.
See that in Puerto Rico withAmira's work, right?
(40:51):
And a lot of sort of legal aidorganizations where you know
land has been just handed downthrough generations.
And so you may not have a titlethat says, this is my land.
And we see that across theregion, right?
And so that has been a barrierto then quote unquote being able
to like formally uh kind ofbuild within the systems that
(41:15):
exist.
And I know in Puerto Rico theyhad to do a lot of work with all
of these legal aid um nonprofitorganizations to change some of
uh what FEMA, because they weretrying to get FEMA aid, how FEMA
was maybe counting oracknowledging ownership compared
to what actually existed on theground.
(41:36):
So even though it's not anarchitectural end, I think
there's a a place for architectswithin that conversation, as you
said, in terms of maybeadvocating for policy change,
especially when it comes to notjust land and housing after
disaster, but the impacts oftourism and what land is deemed
(41:57):
for the local population, andthen what land is deemed for the
tourist or the expat and speechaccess in some in some islands.
Um and you know, how we sort ofnavigating that.
I think it may not be a purelyarchitectural problem, but there
is a role for architects to be apart of pushing for policy
(42:19):
change.
Um, I always tell my studentsthat, you know, you should be
out there if you ever get anopportunity to be on a historic
preservation committee or azoning committee, or somebody
asks you to have a seat on thiscouncil, um, you should say yes
because that's where a lot ofthe um change is going to
(42:43):
happen.
Like sometimes we need to startwith the policy piece before we
get to all of the architecturalpiece.
So I try to encourage mystudents to really get active
politically if they if they everhave the opportunity or interest
to think about change on thatlevel.
SPEAKER_01 (42:59):
Certainly.
I think you know, we can'tunderscore particularly beach
access, um, which is a bigproblem throughout the region.
And how, you know, resorts havethat's that is a future episode.
So our listeners are definitelycontested beach, yeah, always.
(43:20):
Um, I uh definitely do, youknow, want to shift a little bit
because I always ask thisquestion of our guests, but I
think because our episode todayis focused on architecture, I
won't necessarily frame it inthe same way, although you can
feel free to answer it uhwhichever way that you'd like.
But I usually love to hear fromour guests where their you know
(43:41):
favorite ways that ourconversation shows up in popular
culture.
Um, and that could be, you know,through music, through songs,
um, etc., through books, butalso I I think, you know, just
definitely given your expertisewith the region.
Um, this could also be sort ofyour favorite um, you know,
buildings or however you youseem fit to define architecture
(44:03):
in the region, um, some of yourfavorite examples and how you
think they really showcase theregion in a beautiful light.
SPEAKER_00 (44:11):
Um, I have a couple.
I I think ranging fromliterature, so love uh Jamaica
Kincaids, a small place, becauseyou know, she talks about
Antigua.
Um and that has been a veryfamous one on the show.
Yes.
Um, and I think I mean itresonates for me in some of the
(44:31):
uh relationships between tourismand um the built environment and
but also some of thesestereotypes around people and
place.
Um, so I'd say from literaturethere, um, I know Derek Walcott
he meant he meant mentionsarchitecture, maybe not as
explicitly, but maybe asmetaphors around memory and
(44:53):
colonial legacy.
Um, but I think in terms of umsome of my favorite spaces, most
recently, because I took somestudents to Jamaica last spring,
and that resonated with how wecan think about memory and
history um in downtown Kingston.
So it was the Kingston CreativeCollective and the Waterlane
(45:16):
Murals, which I think is aninteresting pop culture example
because now it's like Instagramspot, right?
And video spot.
But I think there's a storythere about how you're kind of
overlaying this art and muralsover this colonial fabric that's
creating this new identity, aplace-making, a sense of place
(45:39):
that people now want to come to.
So I think it's really powerful,even though I know some people
may dismiss it as just, oh, it'slike Instagram place, but I
think that also helps to bring anew story to the forefront than
just the sort of sunse sandnarrative, right?
So that resonates with me aswell as a kind of pop culture.
(46:00):
And if there's tons of spacesimilar types of spaces where
art and architecture and theurban environment sort of
intersect across the region.
And so those are the types ofspaces that I find um super
interesting and powerful andmaybe speak to how we can
envision the envision thefuture.
SPEAKER_01 (46:19):
I agree.
I'm a big fan of KingstonCreative, and I think it blends
well with, you know, our pastand the our present and even
future, right?
Um, the work that they're doingin terms of preservation, of as
you said, the murals upholding,you know, various figures in
Jamaican history, et cetera, um,and still making it sort of, you
(46:41):
know, design and what we in ourcan sort of contemporary sense.
SPEAKER_00 (46:45):
So yeah, and I think it's like even the power of art
to change, because I on thatsame tour, we went down to Fleet
Street and looked at some of themurals there as well.
And so I think there's a lotthere around art architecture
space that I find really, reallyinteresting, um, that also feels
sort of community-driven, whichis as as you could see from this
(47:05):
conversation been a been aninterest of mine.
And and I know that's thosethere's like similar initiatives
across the Caribbean.
So those are the types of thingsthat I find interesting.
SPEAKER_01 (47:16):
Um, for my final question, I think, you know,
just for us considering thebalance between preservation of
history and historicalarchitecture.
Um, we have indigenousity,modernity, all these things that
we have to consider.
Um, what are sort of some ofyour recommendations for
maintaining a sense of culturalidentity in our architecture?
(47:38):
And how do you envision thefuture of Caribbean architecture
as it continues to negotiate allof these things, whether that be
aesthetics, history, identity,climate, realities, et cetera?
SPEAKER_00 (47:51):
Yeah.
So I think I would say maybepreserving, thinking about how
we preserve practices, right?
Um, as opposed to just theimage, right?
Because I think if you thinkabout preservation through a
more practice lens, you begin tounderstand more depth within
what should or shouldn't bepreserved.
Um, even some of the kind ofmodernist um examples across the
(48:16):
region, right?
There's so much sort of historyand um kind of narrative behind
some of those buildings, right?
Like tropical modern buildingsin Jamaica were thinking about,
and across the Caribbean, we'rethinking about how do we
represent ourselves and thinkabout our identity
post-independence.
And it was about shedding acolonial past.
(48:37):
So architects like Colin Lairdand um Wilson Chung, and you
know, sort of all of theseCaribbean architects that were
really thinking about howarchitecture could shed the
colonial past post-independence,right?
You could see how if I werelooking at preservation through
that lens and not just the sortof aesthetic of it all or the
postcard of it all, it may helpto challenge why maybe certain
(49:01):
modernist buildings that may notbe sort of deemed as historic in
through the colonial lens, maybeworthy of preserving because of
what they meant politically, butalso how they operated in terms
of the climate.
So I would say if you'rethinking about preserving the
practice, it may open up newways of thinking about
(49:22):
preservation that are beyondjust typically what gets
preserved in terms of sort ofthese colonial architectures.
It may help to expand it oneither end of the spectrum.
Um, and then I think that alsoopens up ways to think about how
these practices could evolve inthe future because we can learn
from them, and then think aboutyou know technological advances
(49:45):
in in the future.
So, yeah, I think that's a goodway to tie in identity while
embracing innovation becauseyou're focused on the practice,
not just the image or thepostcard.
SPEAKER_01 (49:56):
Thank you so much for sharing.
I think I tremendously learned alot from our conversation, just
sort of beyond what I think isalready out there and helping us
to really underscore andunderstand ultimately what
architecture from our ownperspective looks like.
Um, and the really key and youknow integral part of
(50:18):
maintaining that for futuregenerations, for who we are and
how we continue to evolve.
So thank you so much, ProfessorDoom, for joining us.
Yes, it was great having you forour listeners point.
I will be sure to you know linkthe books of of various
resources and other work outthere that's being done on our
(50:40):
website.
Um if you have any furtherquestions on Caribbean
Architecture, feel free to sendus a DM or at CircleFacts Pod,
all over social media, and letus know what you thought.
And so uh till next time, wehope you enjoyed.
Thanks for tuning in atCircleFacts.
Visit circlefaxpodcast.com formore information for each
(51:01):
episode.
Follow us at circlefaxpod onInstagram and Facebook and at
circlefax on Twitter.
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