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Join Strictly Facts as we share the captivating journey of education in the French Caribbean, focusing on Martinique's rich history throughout the 20th century. With the insightful PhD candidate Nora Eguienta by my side, we unravel the largely untold stories of women educators who profoundly shaped the educational and political landscape from 1920 to 1960. These women dominated teaching positions yet were conspicuously absent from leadership roles—a paradox that persisted until well into the late 1960s. Nora helps is to explore this intriguing dynamic, diving into historical narratives and the powerful activism led by figures like Paulette Nardal, challenging the biases that limited women's roles in education.
Our conversation also takes a scholarly turn as we discuss Patrick Chamoiseau's "Chemin d'école," providing a cultural snapshot of the 1950s schooling experience amid Martinique's transition into a French department. Through this lens, we address the educational challenges of cultural and linguistic barriers, while highlighting the unsung heroes who contributed to the island's rich history. From the impact of migration on teaching staff to the importance of curricula that reflected local histories, we weave a complex tapestry of topics that emphasize the profound influence of everyday individuals on the social history of the French West Indies. Join us in celebrating the resilience and contributions of those who paved the way for future generations.
Nora Eguienta is a PhD candidate in the Department of History at the University Paris 8—Saint-Denis. She is preparing a thesis titled “Les institutrices de l’école primaire laïque en Martinique des années 1920 aux années 1960.” Her research focuses on the history of education, especially on women teaching in elementary schools in Martinique during colonial and postcolonial times. Nora analyzes women professionalization in the context of development of public schools during the French Third Republic and studies their different types of political commitment as educated women living in a colonial society. She is also a certified teacher, teaching contemporary history at middle school, high school and college level. Follow Nora on Twitter and LinkedIn.
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Produced by
Caribbean history and culture,and, as you may have remembered
from an episode I introduced afew weeks ago, I am always
thinking about education andlearning, as a scholar, as a
writer, as a lover of Caribbeanhistory, but it's especially
(00:43):
upon us with the new school yearin mind, and that started me
thinking about our educationsystems and the nuances between
and across the Caribbean and thediaspora.
Of course, we had such greatfeedback on the episodes from a
few months back where wediscussed education in parts of
the Anglophone Caribbean as wellas in the Dominican Republic,
(01:06):
and so I thought why not spinthe block a little bit and come
back to that conversation, thistime with a focus on the French
Caribbean?
And so I am so grateful to haveNora Aguilanta joining us to
share her budding researchacross the ocean a little bit on
this topic.
I always love having fellowdoctoral students on the show,
(01:29):
and so Nora joins us as a PhDstudent at the Institutions and
Historical Dynamics of Economicsand Society all the way in
Paris.
So, nora, thank you again somuch for joining us, and why
don't you kick us off withtelling our listeners a little
bit more about yourself, where,of course, you call home in the
Caribbean, and what led to yourpassion for studying education
(01:52):
in the French Caribbean?
Speaker 2 (01:54):
Yeah, thank you.
Thank you, Alexandria, forhaving me.
So, as you say, my name is Nora.
I am a third year PhD studentat the University of Paris 8 in
Saint-Denis.
It's in the suburb of Paris,and I'm working on the woman
teaching in primary school inMartinique from 1920 to 1960 at
(02:19):
the end of 1960.
And so, yeah, I am fromMartinique.
I was born there, I grew upthere and then I left.
After high school, I went toParis and I've been in Paris
since 2015.
I graduate from Sciences Po,which is a university of science
(02:42):
politics in Paris.
I went to Howard University forone year and when I was there I
discovered Black history,history of the Caribbean,
caribbean literature.
So I came back to Paris afterthis year with the idea of
studying more about the diaspora.
(03:05):
So first I prepare a masterthesis about a woman from
Martinique who arrived in Franceduring the Bumidome, which was
a migration-led policy by thegovernment in the 1960s, and I
look at how these women wereintegrated in labor unions and
(03:31):
cultural association.
But after this, I saw that alot of studies have been done
about this policy, the Bumidomin general, and and so I wanted
to do something else, but stillabout the Caribbean, about the
French West Indies andespecially about women working
(03:57):
on women history.
So I found my subject for myPhD.
Looking at other subjects, Iread an article about Clara
Palmiste.
She's a Guadeloupean historian.
She worked on many subjects ongender history and she wrote an
(04:19):
article about the way secularschools have been created in
Guadeloupe.
And this sparked something inmy mind, because where I come
from, schools are big thingsLike.
I remember my grandparentsalways talking about their
(04:42):
stories when they went to school, how the teacher, whether it
was a woman or man, was someonereally admire, I can say, in the
town, and how education wassomething really important for
them.
And when they knew someone whobecame a teacher after all, they
(05:02):
saw this person as someone whosucceed, you know.
So I wonder why was it soimportant?
Why is it still important to umto teach, to work in education?
And when I look at theliterature, despite this article
of clara palm, I didn't find alot of literature about
(05:26):
schooling in the FrenchCaribbean.
I found things in other Frenchcolonies, like Senegal and other
French colonies.
Actually, one of my advisors isa specialist about education in
French Africa, but I didn'tfind much about French West
(05:49):
Indians.
So this is how I arrived inthis subject and I especially
wanted to know how women,especially our, teaching, how
are they arriving in this careerand how this position sorry
impact their social andpolitical behavior.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
Certainly, I always
think it is a part of, I think,
our nature in a sense, when wedecide to enter the field and,
you know, pursue our studies andrealize the gaps in the
research.
Right, who hasn't been writtenabout?
And oftentimes it is Blackpeople.
It can oftentimes, especiallyfor the region, be women, but
(06:31):
certainly trying to locate andfind those stories and feed them
back into the world as much aswe've enjoyed and you know,
doing the research, sharing themwith others as well.
So I'm really excited to haveyou and to, of course, share
with our listeners a little bitabout the education system in
Martinique and women'sinvolvement as well.
And so I guess, just to kick usoff, could you give us like a
(06:55):
brief overview or context aboutwhat the system was like in the
French Caribbean.
That could be, of course, youknow, focusing on a few of the
different islands, but just sowe have a little bit of a
landscape, of understandingabout what occurred, especially
in this 20th century moment thatyou're focusing on, and maybe
how that differs from otherplaces within the region.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
Yeah, sure.
So it's actually quite easy totalk about the French Caribbean
as a whole because the system iskind of the same between
Martinique, waterloo and FrenchGuiana.
During my period of study, Iactually don't know much about
the educational system in otherCaribbean, but I can do some
(07:45):
comparison with other Frenchcolonies.
So basically, martinique hasthe same statute from 1848, when
the abolition of slaveryhappens, until 1946, when
Martinique became a Frenchoverseas department, and during
(08:07):
this period people were grantedcitizenship and schools started
to be structured in the island,but mostly around the end of the
19th century, from 1870.
So this is where the ThirdRepublic was implemented in
(08:32):
France, metropolitan France andin Martinique.
And you have this shift wherelocal policies, but also
combined with metropolitanFrench policies, created secular
schools.
So schools were no longerdepending on religious groups
(08:55):
and religious congregations tofunction.
So the state and the localterritories were providing money
to open schools, to fund theteachers, and this has been the
case until now actually.
(09:17):
So you have two systems aprimary school system which is
free.
You have a primary school forboys and others for girls, and
children go there up until 14.
And then they finish schoolwith a certificate saying that
(09:37):
they went to primary school.
Usually you can follow withhigher education of one or two
additional year.
It's still primary education.
You learn to read, to write, tocalculate and have basic
knowledge and usually after thisyou can enter a basic job like
(10:02):
postal services or.
Some of Martin's children,especially in a rural area, they
unfortunately end up working inthe fields, like their parents,
in sugarcane fields, or have ajob at a shop, a small shop and
stuff like this.
So this is a main path forprimary schools, for children
(10:24):
going to primary schools duringthe 20th century.
And you have next to this systemthe secondary schools, which is
more elite path, if I can say,because it can start from
primary education, fromkindergarten.
(10:45):
But it's a school in adifferent establishment.
It's not free, it's stillsecular, it's still public, but
you have to pay and it's moreaccessible for the people living
in the main town, the maincapital for the France, living
(11:09):
in the main town, the maincapital for the france.
And you go there to prepare atthe end the baccalaureate, which
is what we call nowadays a highschool degree, and after this
you can access, with financialaids and fellowship, you can
access higher education.
So you have those two separatepaths for public schools in
Martinique at the time, and youalso have.
(11:30):
You still have also religiousschools, but I'm not really
working on this subject.
You have a PhD student in Pariswho is working on this subject.
So this is the context inMartinique, guadeloupe and
French Guiana at the time andabout 1946, when those three
(11:57):
territories become FrenchOverseas Department.
What changed is that the systemis unified to the french
metropolitan system.
So you have this the same, uh,different schools.
But now what's really changedis about the status of their
(12:17):
teachers.
Before you had teachers comingfrom the French metropolitan
lands, so you have differentstatus, different salary.
But by 1946, everyone workingin a school in Martinique is
considered as a French civilservant and whether you are from
(12:40):
Martinique or not, you have thesame status.
So this is mostly what ischanging.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
That's really an
interesting perspective, I think
, just knowing what I know aboutthe sort of British or
Anglophone Caribbean model andsort of, you know, comparing and
contrasting in my own head, theinfluence of religion, perhaps
right, that you know factorsinto a lot of the origins of
some of our schools.
Um, also, I think very similarlyright, this push to make people
(13:11):
, um, especially in the 20thcentury, civil servants is
another thing that I think itsort of mirrors across the
region and other parts that arein other islands as well.
I think, to sort of likesituate us a little bit further,
this moment of, of course,moving to become a French
department for Martinique and afew of the other islands in the
(13:33):
French West Indies, this isobviously like a part of an
overarching social movementactivism within the region right
, that education is a part ofright activism within the region
, right, that education is apart of right, but, you know, is
sort of stemming from ourhistories of colonialism and
enslavement and things to thatnature.
How do you see some of thesocial issues in the evolution
(13:57):
of the education system,demonstrating the larger
political context of what'sgoing on at the time, the larger
?
Speaker 2 (14:03):
political context of
what's going on at the time.
So it's a very interestingquestion.
So I actually started myresearch with this question,
especially regarding thedifferences with other French
colonies.
I wonder why was education sucha big deal in the Martinique,
(14:30):
education such a big deal in themartinique?
And so, for example, I saw thatin french west africa you had
during colonial times,indigenous schools.
You have different schoolsdepending on your origin and
religious origin, ethnic origins, but in Martinique you don't
have this.
You have mainly a distinctionbased on social distinction,
(14:52):
whether you can pay the schoolor not.
And among teachers thedistinction is more about
whether you are a metropolitanFrench civil servant or whether
you were born in Martinique.
But if you look closer to thecases, the files they have been
(15:13):
working on I'm working on thecareer files of those different
teachers you can see that whatthey are asking for is mainly
equality.
So way before 1946 you havecivil servants and teachers from
Martin asking for the samesalary, the same aids, social
(15:39):
aids, because you can have aidsfor your housing, for example.
It is especially true for women, who usually are really mobile
in their career.
One year they are in one town,the other year they are putting
in the other town, really faraway.
So they have to have a housingand they are asking for
(16:01):
financial aid for housing.
And so by the first part of the20th century the teacher labor
union is really about having thesame status, same pay and same
treatment by 1946, whenMartinique became a French
(16:24):
overseas department.
You can see it's more positive,or I can say they are accepting
this change of status andpushing for the same law as a
way to show that now we arefully French.
We have the same classes, weteach especially civic and moral
(16:46):
education like the French, andhistory also in the same classes
.
So at this time it's more aboutaccepting the French identity.
By the end of the 1950s, thebeginning of the 1960s in
Martinique, society in general,you have this wave of
(17:08):
contestation, this wave ofprotestation about what actually
the department has changed ornot for the population.
Whether he has brought moreequality or not's a general
wonder among the teacherpopulation you have this
(17:29):
fraction of labor union who ismore vocal about criticizing the
change brought or not broughtactually by department status.
So you have, for example, astrike in the 1950s, two strikes
still about having the samestatus, having the same wage,
(17:53):
and by 1959 you have um riots inforFrance, the capital of
Martinique, riot by young people.
But because in the teacherpopulation, especially in high
school, some of teachers aresupporting the protest, in 1963,
(18:19):
you have the governmentdecrating and calling back three
teachers back to France because, as the decree is saying that
they are disturbing social peaceand are supporting the protests
, so has the year base youstarting with a labor union and
(18:42):
teachers, nothing reallysupporting the French education
system because they are longingfor this equal status.
But then you have more radicalpart, if I can say by like 10
years after the 1946 change ofstatus, to really asking
question criticize what has beenbrought or not and whether
(19:05):
changes were made or not.
Speaker 1 (19:08):
I find that really
interesting, just because it's,
I think, it tracks with sort ofother parts of the region, right
where there were tremendouslabor movements going on
throughout the Caribbean 30s,40s, 50s as well but also the
fact that teachers are playingsuch an instrumental role in
(19:29):
this right, and so, as you sortof alluded with us a little bit
earlier, gender of course playsa tremendous fact in your
research.
How do you see some of theteachers you know impacting the
overall social movements youknow, not just within the field
of education at the time, but interms of, you know, activism
(19:52):
around what it means to be aFrench department and how this
sort of intertwines with otherpolitics of neocolonialization?
Speaker 2 (20:02):
So it's really a
complex situation when you look
at genders, because you can saythe first, this field, the
teaching field, it's a fieldwith a lot of women teaching.
I'm working on two lists ofteachers established, one in
(20:24):
1925 and another one in 1956,and in in 1925, I count 349
women teaching and on the otherhand you have 181 men and by
1956, these numbers have almostdoubled.
(20:46):
We've always more women thanmen.
But despite this, in the report, when you look at the archives,
the report of inspectors anddirectors of the teaching
services in the administration,they are writing sometimes that
there are too many women.
It's necessary to make this jobattractive for men, men.
(21:11):
The explanation, thejustification is not always
clear, but it's a fact that theyare aware that they have many
women, more women than men, andsometimes it's a kind of issue.
And what is also paradoxical isthat when you look at the
hierarchy, you have very fewalmost known women as inspectors
(21:35):
until the very late 1960s, thebeginning of 1970s, and even
this I found in the archive thefirst inspector woman is for
kindergarten.
So you have also thisdiscrepancy between which areas
(21:57):
that are accessible for women ornot, but you have women, for
example, director of principalof schools, mainly of girls'
schools.
And then, when you look atother fields regarding teaching,
you have, for example, laborunions.
You have women present in thelabor unions.
(22:18):
But I also find it paradoxicalthat when you look at the
surveillance documents,especially during World War II
and the Vichy regime, I thinkthat more men are under
surveillance, under inspection,more men than women, although
(22:43):
the government knows that womenare part of the union.
But I found more papers, moreletters about men in this union
than women.
So it's one of the thing I cansay it's very paradoxical when
you are looking at genderdynamics in the field.
(23:04):
And also another thinginteresting is that I also have
a lot of files for spouses, bothmen and women, having the same
career in elementary school.
But I wonder whether they go upthe ladder in their career at
the same path or not and whetherwomen have the same advantages
(23:31):
as men in this career, as theirhusband.
So to answer your question aboutthe gender dynamics in the
teaching field, but in thesocial movement or the social
aspect of the job, I found itinteresting to find women's
(23:51):
voices, women's writings, morein women's associations, not
much in political associationsor political parties, but mostly
in women's associations time ofthe change of status in 1946.
You have two women-ledassociations and the
(24:14):
rassemblement feminine is thegathering of women.
It's an association led bypaulette nardal from the
movement and you have someteachers taking part of this.
As a charity work they go torural areas, they give milk to
(24:36):
families in need.
So I found traces of womenteaching part of this
association.
And the other association is theunion des femmes de martinique,
which is a union of women ofMartinique.
It's a more leftist associationclose to the Communist Party,
(24:58):
but it's also a place where Ifound some traces of women
teaching, especially SolangeFitt Duval.
Solange Fitt Duval was a womanteaching in primary school by
the 1960s.
She was part of the labor union, teacher labor union and she
(25:21):
was also part of the Union desFemmes de Martinique.
So this is some of the placesyou can find a woman teacher
activism in Martinique.
But you really have to look forit and search it, because at
the beginning is not whatappears first in unions records
(25:44):
or in unions journals, forexample unions, uh, donors, for
example.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
I think that's a
tremendous sort of connection to
our previous episode thattalked about um, the negritude
movement in palatinar doll, um,as being one of the sort of
unsung or, you know, maybe underdiscovered or understudied
women who are really tremendousin terms of activism and
supporting.
You know, women's activism,particularly at the time, and
(26:14):
also, you know, puts us incontact with other greater
social movements.
When we look at what negritudemeans for the French Caribbean
and other parts of the Frenchworld right, thinking broadly
about colonization and what tiesus together, french world right
, thinking broadly aboutcolonization and what ties us
together, I think one thing thatI found really tremendous in
your work is this narrative of,you know, having to look for
(26:38):
these stories in a particularway, because women are not
showing up in the surveillanceright as often, and that gets to
a whole another paradigm ofgender hierarchies and what we
think, what society maybe thinkswomen are capable or not
capable of right, and the waysthat you're, you know, finding
(26:59):
their works, their activism,their contributions to our
history in sort of nuanced ways,and so what has that sort of
looked like for you in terms ofdoing this research?
Speaker 2 (27:13):
that sort of look
like for you in terms of doing
this research.
So it's actually quitedifficult, but it's depending on
your object.
So in writing archives, inofficial archives, you really
have to know the names of thepeople you are looking for.
So what helped me is that I hadthis list, as I told you, and
(27:35):
so once I had the list and thenI found the files, I could also
connect when I saw something onother archives maybe a letter
from the government or somethingthat is not in my original
archives I could connect thename and say, oh yeah, this is
(27:55):
this person who is teaching inthis school or who was part of
this labor reunion at thismoment.
And on the other hand, it'salso really difficult because
sometimes you have one name ofone person that is not, can be a
substitute teacher, is notalways present.
(28:16):
So it's kind of difficult whenyou are working with
administrative archives andwriting archives.
But I also did interviews withformer teachers.
I did interviews with both menand women teaching by this time.
(28:38):
I found mostly people whostarted in the late 1950s and
during the 1960s, so at the endof my period of study.
So at the end of my period ofstudy, and some of the women I
(29:16):
interviewed were reallyenthusiastic about talking about
the action in labor, study andbe ready for the new year.
So it's kind of a way I sawwomen implication in their work.
Some other women gave me tolook at the notebooks where they
were preparing notebooks.
Where they were preparing they,they, they listened, and other
(29:38):
were really I won't say shy, butthey were really discreet and
didn't want to talk aboutanything else except their job.
So when I asked about uh, wereyou part of union or were you,
uh, have you ever been on strikeonce?
It was like a taboo questionand they say that it was not for
them or they were not concernedabout anything political.
(29:59):
So I saw so a way that theinformation can be blocked for
you because you're looking at asubject that is not particularly
interesting for women ingeneral, we can say, or
especially at this time, itdoesn't mean that they were not
part of it, but sometimes therefrain or the they are like
(30:24):
putting self-restriction ofthemselves, you know.
And another thing I foundinteresting is that sometimes
also they reflect on thesituation as you ask the
question.
So you talked about thenegritude movement or a
political movement after orduring the wave of
(30:48):
decolonization, and some of thewomen I interviewed were not
actually part of it.
But, as I did the interviews,they talked afterward of what it
meant for them at this momentto to be part of this change of
status, to see the changes inthe school institutions, to be
(31:12):
considered as equal as theirFrench counterparts, and so it's
also a way to get theinformation, although you have
to know that it's a reflectionduring our current times and not
something that happened at themoment of the event.
That happened at the moment ofthe event.
And one last thing I wanted tosay I also got some writing,
(31:39):
personal writings, from womenteaching, and some were
especially writing.
They were writing aboutMartinique, about the French
system, in the form of poems,because you can learn poetry in
school and sometimes theseteachers were writing poetry for
(32:00):
their students.
But the subject of this poetryreally strikes me because it's
about school, it's aboutMartinique and the history of
Martinique, but I found itreally interesting as a way to
see their opinion about theircareer, about the institution.
Speaker 1 (32:19):
Yeah, that is, I
think, sometimes the biggest
challenge I have personally inmy own research the like
double-edged sword of interviewsand oral histories.
Right that on one hand, atleast in my opinion it's so
great to actually like get tospeak to the people who were
there, right when you're doingmore recent, maybe 20th century,
(32:41):
research.
But the other challenges youknow having to contend with
they're still here and so thereare things that they're not
necessarily going to want toshare or, you know, based off
their own experiences.
People are obviously still herewith us, still having to
contend with maybe some of thechallenges or the traumas of
their experiences and maybedon't want to talk about it.
(33:04):
But I think in a sense it'slike the the-edged sword of
being a researcher right,wanting to get these stories,
but also being respectful oftheir truth, their power in
telling their stories.
Right, deciding what they wantto share and what they don't
want to share with us.
Speaker 2 (33:22):
And I found it really
interesting and it was actually
the case especially for women,because mostly all men I
interviewed were reallyvoluntary, they were willing to
share, to show me what theywrote and what they wrote in
(33:44):
journals.
But I have to dig a little bitand try to make these former
women teachers more comfortableto share the information with me
.
And I think it's part of maybeit's a social things, but it's
part of the nature to be morereserved and especially at the
(34:06):
time where women were not reallyallowed to be vocal in some
spheres like political spheres.
So I found it interesting thatyou still have those patterns of
behavior when you are doingconducting interviews nowadays
I'm going to sort of pair mynext question or next set of
(34:28):
questions in two right um, ofcourse.
Speaker 1 (34:31):
One, our standard
strictly facts question, on the
ways that you know you see thishistory of education showing up
in popular culture, in variousbooks and things to that nature.
But also, aligned with that,what are sort of some of your
biggest takeaways in terms ofthis moment for education,
(34:53):
particularly in this, you know,post-department status For
Martinique, for the FrenchCaribbean.
What do you think this reallystands alone as as a period of
study?
Speaker 2 (35:08):
So for your first
question, I'm thinking about two
cultural objects, and I haveone movie that is from a quite
popular book in Martinique.
So the movie is called La RueCasenegre, or in English,
(35:30):
sugarcane Alley, from aMartinique movie director, and
the movie is based on the novelof joseph zobel of the same
title uh, la rue casneg and it'sa story about a martinique in
the 1930s, in a rural area, howchildren were growing up in a
(35:56):
sugar cane alley and howeducation was important for the
main character to get out ofthis town and going to the
capital, getting his primaryschool degree and then higher
education degree and at the endbe a civil servant, which was
(36:17):
the ultimate outcome.
And I remember in this moviethere is a scene where the
teacher in the rural school hewrote on the on the board
instruction is the second key toyour freedom, and so this movie
really stuck with me and Ithink it was something that also
(36:40):
pushed me to learn a bit moreabout teaching and how teaching
was important, how teachers wereperceived in the 20th century.
In mountaineer.
And in the same vein, the samelink, I have this also book by
patrick chamoiseau.
The book is called chemind'école, or school days in
(37:04):
english.
And so this is the second bookof patrick chamoiseau about his
childhood, and this one isparticularly about his first
years at school.
But it is in the 1950s, so it'sa year later, but Martinique is
already a French department.
(37:26):
But you can still seeconnection about the way schools
were sometimes crowded, the wayschools were sometimes crowded
sometimes where you had teachersfrom French metropolitan land
who doesn't speak a bit Creoleand have to manage to teach to
(37:48):
these children, and you see alsohow the one teacher can be
important for one child who thenbecomes Patrick Chamoiseau, the
writer that we all know now.
So those two objects are reallyinteresting If you want to
discover this story aboutteaching, but on a cultural
(38:11):
standpoint, and also, I thinkespecially the movie is a really
good one.
And so, to answer your secondquestion, what do I hope that
the studying of this story willinspire for our future?
So, first, I hope that, on thesocial history level, I hope
(38:34):
that, uh, we will know moreabout those little people, those
person who made the history ofthe islands.
You know, sometimes we knowmore about the big names, the
one that made revolution, of bigpoliticians, uh, that changed a
part of history, but we forgetabout people like you and me who
(38:59):
are working on a daily basis tochange things out at the level.
I think it's really importantto make more social historical
studies about those kinds ofpeople in French West Indies,
but also in the Caribbean ingeneral.
So teachers, postal workers,hospital workers, nurses and so
(39:27):
on.
So this is the first things.
I think that is reallyimportant.
And the second thing regardingeducation is that sometimes,
especially in France and in theFrench Overseas Department, you
heard a lot of talking aboutwhat we learn in school is not
really our history, about formerFrench kings that doesn't have
(39:59):
anything to do with whathappened in Martinique since the
beginning of history and evenbefore the arriving of the
French.
I think that it's interestingto put this thing in perspective
, because when you look at theprograms, when you look at the
(40:20):
programs of primary education,teaching during the 20th century
, you have a part of thecurriculum that is about the
territorial history, theterritorial geography.
You have also things aboutfrench history.
It it's really complex.
What I want to say is that youhave books, mainly about
(40:41):
Martinique history, that areused even in the 1920s, 1930s.
So it's not always black orwhite, it's not always that
distinct and that separate andit's like certain things are
(41:03):
more complex and you need toknow this history to see if
nowadays it's things havechanged or not.
Do you learn more about slavery?
Do you learn more about theworkers in the sugarcane field
or not?
Do you learn more about slavery?
Do you learn more about, um,the workers in the sugarcane
field or not?
But it's too easy for me, Ithink, to say that you never
(41:25):
learned this or you have neverbeen taught this history,
because I have kind of proof inthe archives that the history of
Martinique and the geography ofMartinique were a bit inserted
in the curriculum.
It was not much and more can bedone still, improvement can
(41:50):
still be done.
But regarding this debate, Ithink it's important to know the
history to, uh, be moreaccurate in the debate I think
that's beautifully said.
Speaker 1 (42:02):
Just, you know, for
one us being aware that, you
know, history is ever changing,it's ever happening, right, um,
and so it's not enough to justbe like, oh okay, this thing
happened in the 17th century andlike let's sort of move on.
Right, there are newdiscoveries, new things to be
understood, hopefully new likedocuments that somebody sits in
(42:25):
some archive, like we do, forhours on end, right, trying to
discover something else that youknow we've either neglected or,
you know, has been sort ofhidden from us.
Right, because that'softentimes also part of these
colonial exchanges.
Right, that there are thingsthat have happened that they're
(42:45):
housing somewhere withoutletting us access or know about,
certainly.
But I think, on the other hand,what you said about activists
certainly touched me in that,like you know, of course we are
always going to have our maybeyou know national heroes or you
know these big picture people,but there are also tons of other
(43:07):
people who have contributed toempowering us, to changing us us
, to our evolution.
I certainly even think about myown trajectory in school, and
you know the two teachers I hadin elementary school who really
motivated my love for history,to sort of push me further, and
(43:28):
I oftentimes think of them interms of my studies.
So this also is a note toeveryone, right, that not only
is history ever happening aroundyou, but also be on the lookout
for all those people around uswho are certainly activists in
their own right, whether wethink about them or not as such,
or whether they considerthemselves that or not.
(43:50):
Absolutely.
I thank you so much, nora, forbeing here.
I think this is an importantconversation for us from our own
, of course, personal interest,right, but I think we are also
in a world now where teaching iscontentious, right, where there
are all of these sort ofattacks on education in various
(44:12):
ways.
Also, as you rightfully noted,right, the impact of migration
on teaching, whether that'steachers from elsewhere coming
into the Caribbean, as you weretalking about in the case, or,
and I think, more in recenttimes, there's also a
conversation of teachers notbeing paid enough in the
Caribbean and leaving to go tosort of the global north or some
(44:35):
of the more developed countriesto teach, to earn for
themselves, which, of course, Ithink you know everyone has the
right to do so in a sense,whatever makes their livelihoods
better, right, but this story,or you know this, this adherence
that in the work that you'redoing in terms of us describing
(44:57):
and knowing the history of ourteachers and the impact that
they've had, I think is reallycritical for our own empowerment
as Caribbean people, whetherthat is in the islands or in the
diaspora.
So I thank you for the workyou're doing.
I'm really excited for you tokeep pushing forward, as I know
the journey it's a long journey,but we'll get there right and
(45:24):
I'm totally excited to see thework that you bring to the fore.
So again, I thank you forsharing your work, your budding
research with us on StrictlyFacts, for being a listener as
well and also now a guest um forbeing a listener as well and
also now a guest and um for ourlisteners.
I hope you enjoyed.
I will link the novel or the.
Speaker 2 (45:42):
I think it says
memoir, right, oh yeah, one part
of his memoir, okay.
Speaker 1 (45:45):
And the movie also,
the novel from the movie, yeah
that's what it is, so I willlink the novel, the movie and
the memoir on our show notes foryou all to check out if you're
interested in learning a littlebit more about education in
Martinique.
And till next time, lookalore.
Thanks for tuning in toStrictly Facts.
(46:05):
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