September 18, 2024 • 45 mins
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Recently celebrating 62 years of independence, Trinidad and Tobago is regarded as one of the most successful nations in the Caribbean. However, what are the signs of a successful independent nation? In this episode, Dr. Zophia Edwards joins us to discuss the complexity of what constitutes “success” and the role of ordinary people in shaping the country’s trajectory. The heart of our conversation centers on the pivotal role of working people in Trinidad and Tobago's progress both before and after independence. Despite the persistent structural dependencies on natural resources and foreign markets inherited from colonial times, the tenacity and mobilization of the working class have driven notable improvements in material conditions such as lower infant mortality and increased life expectancy. We explore how multiracial and multi-sectoral solidarity among workers, spanning industries from sugar to oil, has consistently fought for equitable wages, better working conditions, and broader societal change, culminating in robust democratic systems and enhanced human welfare.
Finally, we delve into the intersections of race, class, and culture in the Caribbean, highlighting the importance of understanding these dynamics to fully grasp the region's past and future. Discussions on how colonial power funneled different racial groups into specific economic sectors and how workers forged a multiracial movement against oppression, are complemented by the cultural resistance captured in Calypso music and social movements. Dr. Edwards also brings in perspectives from key scholars and contemporary thinkers, shedding light on recent movements and the exploitation of natural resources. Tune in to understand how historical legacies and grassroots organizing continue to shape the Caribbean's path towards justice and liberation.
Zophia Edwards is an Assistant Professor of Sociology at Johns Hopkins University. Her research examines race, labor, colonialism, state-building, and comparative development in the Global South. Her forthcoming book with Duke University Press examines the role of multiracial labor movements in state-building and equity-enhancing development in Trinidad and Tobago. She has published in academic journals such as International Journal of Comparative Sociology and her public scholarship appears outlets such as Monthly Review and Clash!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Strictly Facts, a guide to Caribbean
history and culture, hosted byme, alexandria Miller.
Strictly Facts teaches thehistory, politics and activism
of the Caribbean and connectsthese themes to contemporary
music and popular culture.
Wah-gwan, wah-gwan.
(00:23):
And welcome back to anotherepisode of Strictly Facts a
guide to Caribbean history andculture.
I'm your host, alexandria, hereto share another tremendous
episode on Caribbean history andits impact on our present and
future.
We are debuting this episode afew weeks after Independence Day
for Trinidad and Tobago, so bigshout out to all my Trinidad
(00:43):
listeners, who celebrated 62years of independence on August
31st.
Our focus for today centers onTrinidad, its development in the
20th century leading up toindependence and its aftermath,
what we might really considerour natural resources in the
region and how we can leveragethese resources to be successful
(01:06):
nations, and so we'll get intothat a little bit more in
today's episode.
But before we get there, Idefinitely want to introduce our
listeners to Dr Sophia Edwards,assistant Professor in the
Department of Sociology at JohnsHopkins University.
So, dr Edwards, it's so greatto have you.
Thank you again in advance forjoining us.
(01:26):
Why don't we begin with yousharing with us a bit about
where you call home, whatinspires your passion for your
research on Caribbean labor anddevelopment within the Caribbean
, but also the global South atlarge.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
Well, thank you so much, Alexandria, for inviting
me to this very importantpodcast.
I'm delighted to be here and tobe having this conversation
with you, especially as wecommemorate the Independence Day
celebrations in Trinidad andTobago.
So, in a broad sense, I aminterested in the historical
(02:07):
factors and processes that shapestates and development in the
global South, and I focusspecifically on Trinidad and
Tobago and the Caribbeancountries.
But I'm interested in thisgeneral question and I am
theorizing and documenting howracism, colonialism and
(02:30):
resistance by racialized peoplehelp shape the construction of
state institutions and, in turn,the long-run development
trajectories of countries thatwere formerly colonized.
But my path to this was not astraight one.
It was a very windy road withmany obstacles, all of which, I
(02:52):
think, shaped my intellectualdevelopment.
But looking back on thatjourney, I always had a seed
that I was able to water, and Ifound also other people who
could also water that seed.
And as I try to water the seedof others, I'm terrible at
metaphors and I'm also terribleat gardening, so this is
(03:15):
probably not the best metaphor,but I really do see my
intellectual development in thisway.
So I grew up in Trinidad andTobago and in my formal
education I did not start off inthe social sciences.
As maybe our listeners know, inTrinidad and Tobago the
(03:35):
education system, being rootedin British colonial roots, is
very specialized, so I wasplaced into the sciences in
secondary school, studyingphysics, chemistry, biology,
math, and so I had very littleexposure to the social sciences
at that time.
In secondary school, though, myfriends and I would sit around
(03:59):
during lunch and we would talkabout how vicious the US was in
the world and how Americanizedour material values were.
In Trinidad and Tobago, wewould talk about how the British
wronged us, we talked aboutslavery, we talked about the
fact that if you want to travelto the UK or the US or Canada,
(04:23):
you needed to get a visa, butthen Canadians and Americans and
British people could just waltzinto Trinidad and Tobago.
And so you know.
We talked about how ourresources, that Trinidad and
Tobago had oil, but how come wewere not seeing the benefits of
that oil?
Why are the roads not pavedwhen we have asphalt, a huge
(04:49):
asphalt lake?
And so these were the issuesthat we would sit around and
talk about during lunchtime, andwe didn't have the precise
theories of imperialism orracial capitalism.
We were not using that languagelanguage, but this is what we
were talking about and we werelistening to Rastafari and
(05:12):
conscious reggae music, and sothis is how we got our political
education.
It was not in the formal schoolsystem.
It was not.
You know, I went to a catholicall girls high school history
was not even a part.
I went to a Catholic all girlshigh school History was not even
a part of my education, beingon the science track.
So between ages 13 to 18, Ididn't study history.
(05:34):
You know, what I learned waswhat I learned from grounding
with folks outside of school,and so, you know, I went to
college.
I did the thing the science andyou know, went to college.
I did the thing the science andyou know, continued on that
track.
But I did take courses insociology, in history, and then
(05:55):
I studied abroad, in Australia,and I think my experiences
traveling to other countries,being a black woman traveling
through other countries, being aBlack woman traveling through
other countries really shapedthen what I wanted to study.
I took, while I was in Australia, classes in Aboriginal history
(06:17):
and culture, race and ethnicstudies, international
development, and then I reallyfelt like this is really what
I'm more interested in.
But it's not that I came tothat during that formal college
education process.
It was always that seed, as Imentioned, that I had in high
school, and before that I hadalways been interested in these
(06:41):
questions, and so, anyways, Ifinished my bachelor's degree,
but I knew I didn't want tocontinue in the natural sciences
, so I came back to Trinidadafter college and I ended up
working as a research assistantfor a sociology professor at the
University of the West Indies.
His name is Biko Agassino, andwe worked on a project about CLR
(07:05):
James and the Black Jacobinsociology of.
CLR, james, and so for thisproject I had to read all
James's books and we interviewedscholars who had really engaged
with his work and knew his work, and so it was so
intellectually invigorating.
That's where I really got todelve into these questions about
(07:26):
labor, race, the Caribbean,colonialism, uneven development,
and so that's when I decided toapply to graduate school and go
into sociology to be able tostudy these issues, of which I
was most intellectually excitedby.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
I always love hearing about people's journeys to
their studies because, as yourightfully mentioned, right,
they're so impacted by the worldthat we live in our lens in the
world, based off our ownidentities, the things that
we've learned as well, but also,just, you know how we take up
space in our experiences.
So thank you so much forsharing, and even this episode
(08:10):
was really inspired by my ownexperiences.
This year I had the opportunityto travel to Trinidad for the
first time and you know, as Ithink we all do, not just in the
Caribbean, you know it's sortof anywhere you go, do not just
in the Caribbean, you know, it'ssort of anywhere you go.
But having been to Jamaica andobviously being from Jamaica and
having traveled to other partsof the Caribbean, I do that sort
of compare and contrast thingright when I'm like, okay, this
(08:34):
is similar.
You know these things aredifferent, et cetera.
And it really helped me to sortof think about what we consider
development and progress in theregion, and you know especially
how that has impacted ourgrowing diaspora across the
world and things to that.
And so you know, I think somestudies even really point to
(08:58):
Trinidad's success in terms of,like an economic success thing.
You mentioned oil, right, buthow this is a very push and pull
factor, as you rightfully werestating having economic riches
from oil, but then you know howthat then plays into the actual
lived experiences of its people,right?
(09:20):
And so there are, of course,several reasons to describe, you
know, how these states havedeveloped, especially
post-colonially.
But what, in your view, aresome of the key factors that
have led to Trinidad andTobago's success, as it's been
deemed, in the more than 60years since independence?
Speaker 2 (09:41):
Yes, this is a really important question.
It's the working people, it isall about the working people and
, as you mentioned, Trinidad andTobago's path is a complicated
one.
If we're thinking about, arepeople free from super
(10:03):
exploitation and are they freefrom all forms of oppression?
Are they free from racism andpatriarchy and sexism?
Well, the answer to that is no,Right.
We know that that Trinidad andTobago it's the workers don't
own the means of production andeven though the country may
register now as a high incomecountry it's according to these
(10:27):
World Bank indicators it stillrelies on having to export its
natural resources, it stillrelies on access to foreign
markets, access to foreigncapital.
So it hasn't broken thosechains of structural dependency
that were established whenTrinidad was integrated into the
(10:50):
world global economy throughcolonialism.
So in that sense, we can seethat Trinidad and Tobago does
not qualify as a quote-unquotesuccess.
But even though Trinidad andTobago might remain still in
this same relative position inthe global hierarchy of wealth
(11:13):
and power, working people haveseen significant improvements in
their material conditions andhuman welfare.
If we look at infant mortality,you know lowering of that
infant mortality over time,increased life expectancy over
time, expanded access toeducation and generally a
(11:35):
raising of living standards andwell-being.
These are all measures on whichTrinidad and Tobago far
outperforms many other formerlycolonized countries, and what's
interesting about this is thisis not what is generally
predicted for countries that arerich in natural resources or
(11:57):
that have a history ofcolonialism or multi-ethnic
composition like Trinidad andTobago.
Most development theories thatwe are familiar with in the
social sciences would say thatTrinidad and Tobago should be
cursed right.
Should be cursed by its naturalresources and be stuck in a
(12:21):
trap of poverty andunderdevelopment, or it should
be cursed by ethnic rivalriesstill see significant economic
and social development andformal democratic systems in
(12:41):
comparison to other places thatare in a similar situation.
So how can we account for this?
And for me, it is about theforce and the vitality of
working people.
This is my answer to thisquestion and in my own work and
my book, which will be comingout later this academic year.
(13:05):
So you know, Trinidad and Tobagohas a history of powerful
working class mobilization,working people who are striking,
protesting, demonstrating, youknow, out on the streets, and
that mobilization had beeninterracial, involving African
(13:25):
and Indian workers, who were thebulk of the workforce, who were
in different economic sectors,like sugar and oil and public
sector workers and unemployedpeople right.
It involved women and children.
So it was a united movementthat was vociferously against
racial oppression, againstcolonial domination, against the
(13:49):
exploitation of their labor,for wages and working conditions
to be improved, but they alsowanted full-scale transformation
of the economic, political,social and cultural order of the
society.
And these working peopleself-organized and erupted in
(14:14):
1919, in the mid-1930s and inthe 1960s, ultimately peaking in
the Black Power movement of1970.
And they pushed their employersand the colonial state to be
more redistributive and to bemore democratic.
So in this sense we can seethat these gains that we've seen
(14:40):
over time in terms of infantmortality, life expectancy,
these outcomes are the result ofthe efforts of working people.
Nothing was ever given to them.
Whatever gains they achievedright and, as I said, health,
schooling, well-being, dec,decolonizing their minds it was
(15:02):
all because they fought for itthat, I think, brings us to
really a tremendous point wherewe think of.
Speaker 1 (15:10):
You know, everybody hails independence because it's
the day that we celebrate, right, but there were tremendous
movements leading up to thispoint, and obviously
subsequently after as well, toget us to having these
independence days.
And you know moments ofcelebration, especially, I think
, the 30s, becomes a big momentfor the Caribbean in terms of
(15:32):
labor and pushing our people inprotest, of course, to really
rally behind and to rallytogether and shape these stories
and histories that we come toknow right.
One thing that I think isreally important in terms of
what you've shared with us isTrinidad's multiracial,
(15:55):
multiethnic populace, but alsoit's multisectoral one.
Right, you shared that.
You know people are indifferent labor positions,
whether they were working insugar, whether they were working
in oil, things to that nature,and so could you briefly, you
know, share the histories behindthese factors and how they led
to this point that you'resharing, which I think is really
(16:17):
important.
I want to also mention that youknow that's sort of the also
importance of social sciences.
In a sense, humanities andsocial science work.
If we're just economists orwhatever, right, we would just
strictly look at the numberswithout also paying attention to
the impact of the people andlives that are shared.
(16:37):
But ultimately, to get back tomy question, the impact of the
populace being multiracial andmultisectoral as well.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
Yes, I mean this is a great question because, in
terms of the multiracial aspect,for instance, is one of these
factors that the colonial elitesreally pushed differentially
racializing people in order toexploit them and to divide them
(17:13):
right.
And so, in terms of building amultiracial movement, workers
had to fight against andovercome this divide and rule,
divide and exploit strategies,cross racial difference or
perceived racial differences orconstructed racial differences
(17:43):
towards this goal of liberation.
And I look at how workers didthat all the way back to 1919
and how they did it in the 1930sand in the 1960s, and we find
that, like you know, it reallycomes down to relations between
(18:04):
people.
And also they shared similarconditions.
As we will recall, indianworkers were brought from India
to Trinidad specifically toundermine Black workers,
specifically so that the Blackworkers who were newly
(18:25):
emancipated from slavery, whowere demanding higher wages or
even wages at all for their work, and the plantation-owning
class did not want to pay them.
They brought these Indianworkers to Chernobyl and Tobago
to have a supply of controllable, cheap labor.
(18:47):
And so how do you build acrossthese divides?
And we find that we have laborunions and labor organizers that
are deliberately trying tobring together this multiracial
movement and these labororganizers they were both
African descended or Africansand Indians, and they worked to,
(19:12):
you know, have rallies togetherto have trade unions where,
even if they were Africandominated, they had Indian
representation, and so to kindof work across those lines to
build this unity.
In the case of the 1930s, in1935, when Italy invaded
(19:39):
Ethiopia, right right, thisbecame a rallying cry for the
Wilkin people in Trinidad andTobago and we find that Indian
organizers worked alongsideAfrican organizers to build a
multiracial movement over thefact that what happened in
(19:59):
Ethiopia is an example, a caseof imperial aggression.
And that is something thateverybody, whether you're Indian
or African, everybody can unitearound that, because what is
happening to the Ethiopians ishappening to us, it's happening
to other Africans, is happeningto other people who have been
(20:21):
subjugated under colonialdomination.
So these are the ways in whichthese working people built
solidarity across racial linesand came together, built
solidarity across sectors andreally united themselves towards
(20:43):
this common goal of pushing thecolonial states to be more
democratic and be moreredistributive.
And this is something that isrelevant outside of the case of
Trinidad and Tobago, right,because this is one of the most
important questions forprogressive movements everywhere
(21:04):
.
How do we build across raciallines?
It's an important question inother parts of the Caribbean.
It's an important question inthe United States, in the UK,
every France, everywhere we go.
This is something thatmovements have had to contend
with, and so there are importantlessons there that we can learn
and adopt as we try to buildliberatory movements across the
(21:28):
world.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
You paint a great picture for us in terms of
building multiracial connections.
How did that also shape thebuilding of multisectoral
connections?
Speaker 2 (21:43):
Yes, so, at least in the case of Trinidad and Tobago,
because of the way in whichdifferent racial groups were
channeled into specific sectorsof the economy, right, so
Indians were brought to Trinidadto work on sugar estates,
(22:04):
primarily so they wereconcentrated in the sugar sector
because Black workers wereactively pushed out of the sugar
sector and also because theydidn't necessarily want to work
in the plantations either afteremancipation.
But they were also pushed out ofthe sector actively because the
plantation owning class didn'twant to pay them.
(22:26):
They moved into public sectorwork and moved into the oil
sector, and so these differentsectors of the economy were
racialized because of thosedynamics.
And so by building thismultiracial movement they were
also able to build acrossdifferent sectors of the economy
(22:48):
.
And I will also put in domesticworkers, who are primarily
women, who are also a corecomponent of these movements,
and there is work by ProfessorRhoda Redock in Trinidad and
Tobago who really focuses onwomen workers in this time
(23:09):
period and how they were socentral to the movement as well.
So it was across sectors,across races, across genders,
and because they were able tounite in these historical
periods, they were able to forcethe colonial officials and
(23:30):
force employers to concede tocertain demands.
And when we look at that incomparison to times where they
were not united, when they werenot, you know, collaboratively
working together towards thisgoal, well, they didn't get to
anything.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
Race and class particularly, are very important
in your work, as you mentioned.
As we've been talking about, wehave these moments leading up
to independence, of course,where unity across sectors,
across ethnic lines, is veryimportant in helping shape and
become independent nations, forTrinidad and Tobago particularly
(24:09):
.
How have you seen these factorsimpacting Trinidad and Tobago's
state performance in theaftermath of independence and
maybe how they differ acrossother parts of the region as
well?
Speaker 2 (24:23):
The Caribbean has historically been at the center,
at the heart of world-scaletransformations.
Scale transformations Europeanexpansion for raw materials and
markets historically spurred thedevelopment of all kinds of
(24:43):
isms and schisms to justify thebrutal treatment of human beings
.
So they organized societiesalong these lines in order to
extract profits from us and toprevent us from coming together
as one to upend this oppressivecapitalist system In the
(25:05):
Caribbean, thinking about theplantation economies, but also
resource extraction, how theywere organized in these ways.
So, for me, we cannotunderstand our conditions and
experiences without a deep andserious understanding and a
serious analysis of race andclass.
(25:28):
Together we have to contendwith how groups that have been
differentially racialized relateto each other, as I mentioned
before.
How do they build unity andsolidarity across these
constructed differences?
We have to understand who isdominating and who is being
(25:49):
exploited and dispossessed.
We need to understand race andclass, understand colorism,
which is so rampant across theCaribbean, colorism and
Eurocentrism that is embedded inour society.
And I think it also helps us tounderstand really crucial
(26:10):
questions which continue to berelevant to this day.
What does it mean to have Blackand brown faces in high places?
Meaning?
Are the masses of the peoplebetter off because we have Black
heads of state across theCaribbean and Black CEOs and
Indian CEOs and heads of stateCEOs and Indian CEOs and heads
(26:33):
of states.
How can we think about BarackObama's presidency?
How can we think about RishiSunak in the UK?
We are now having to askourselves this question with
regard to Kamala Harris.
We have examples from theCaribbean.
We have examples of leadersacross Africa.
(26:54):
Right that it is really reallycrucial that we really seriously
analyze the intersection ofrace and class within the
world's capitalist system inorder to understand our futures.
And Walter Rodney, he used theterm flag independence, right,
(27:19):
which is to say that we havethese leaders, these black and
brown leaders, but thestructures of exploitation, of
profit making, of oppression hasnot changed.
More than that, they are instrategic positions facilitating
(27:46):
the exploitation of the blackand brown masses around the
world.
And so, you know, we reallyneed to understand all these
various, as I said, isms andschisms to that, and this is
something we get from rastaright that we have to understand
(28:08):
this in order to um reallytruly understand what role these
people play in the globalcircuits of profit-making and to
understand our conditions andour experiences.
These, you know, supposedsaviors are not always.
(28:29):
You know, if we lookhistorically, if we take
seriously what their roles andactions have been to support
imperialism, to supportdomination and exploitation I
think it's very hard to see themas our CVS.
As a result, I read the work ofWalter Rodney, as I said, cielo
(28:53):
James, oliver Cox, sylviaWinter, to help me understand
race and class together, andcontemporaries.
We have a lot of people workingon these topics, like Rhoda
Reddock, as I mentioned, kestonPerry, tam Manisha, john Ryan
Jobson, nicole Burrows, tayembaSalandi.
(29:17):
All of these people are doingthis work, trying to grapple
with these questions, to reallyunderstand what our conditions
and our lived experiences arecurrently and what they are
likely to be in the globaleconomy economy, our discussion
(29:38):
on development, on resources, aswe've been talking about, on
our conditions.
Speaker 1 (29:40):
And you know, independence movements are,
they're, all you know, sort oftied and linked right, and I of
course can't have us have adiscussion about our past
without again sort of bringingit into contemporary times.
And you know, we've seen of late, particularly with Barbados and
several others of course, sonot solely Barbados, but you
(30:02):
know, this movement towards, youknow, our nation's becoming
Republican and getting away fromthe Commonwealth right.
We've also seen our ownresources for years really being
exploited, exported, depletedtremendously.
And of course that brings me tothe case of Guyana, which it
(30:25):
was a few months ago, I think,at the height of our minds and
maybe the rally around it hasdied down a little bit, but
thinking about Guyana and itsnatural resources, especially in
the Essequibo region.
And so how do you think ourstates and others really compare
in this trajectory, you know,in terms of the future of our
(30:49):
regions, ensuring that you knowwe are prioritizing ourselves
and our well-being, and thewell-being of the mass is really
not the figureheads and thingsto that nature and what
takeaways or actions do you hopewe see modeled in our evolution
?
Speaker 2 (31:09):
Yes, this is a very important question, because it
is important to know where wecame from in order to know where
we're going and what the futureholds.
And you know, I'm reminded ofthis video clip that was
circulating online of a BBCjournalist interviewing the
(31:33):
president of Guyana, presidentIrfan Ali, and the journalist
was very fresh with himself.
He was asserting that Guyaneseoil extraction and oil
development is now significantlycontributing to the world's
carbon emissions, and so Guyanabears some responsibility for
(31:55):
the situation that we're intoday regarding the climate
crisis.
And well, the president ofGuyana took him to task, and
rightly so, for his arrogance.
You know this white British manthere condescendingly lecturing
Guyanese officials on what theyshould and should not be doing
with their resources, and alsofor his ignorance regarding
(32:19):
world history and who are thegreatest sources of carbon
emissions and the historical andcontemporary drivers of the
climate crisis, which is theEuropean imperial countries.
So the president of Guyana laidinto him.
However, I think we also haveto pause and remember that the
(32:41):
Guyanese government has openedits doors to ExxonMobil for them
to suck out the country'sresources, to engage in
relentless resource extractionon the lands of Guyanese people,
of indigenous people's lands,of Guyanese people, of
indigenous people's lands,displacing communities,
exploiting workers, right thecorruption, deepening that
(33:03):
divide between wealthy elitesand working people and
entrenching racialized partypolitics in Guyana.
These issues have beenhighlighted by a Guyanese
organizations like Red Thread,activist scholars like Dr Alyssa
Trotz and Dr David Hines, andso you know, we really have to
(33:32):
think very carefully about therole of natural resources in our
development and the role ofpeople.
Trinidad and Tobago and Guyanahave a lot of similarities in
terms of their histories andsocieties, in terms of
colonialism and the racialdynamics, right, and so there's
(33:57):
a lot that can be learned, notat the level of um, you know,
between these elites,necessarily, but among working
people, about organizing,strategizing to kind of build on
and expand some of theachievements that we have made
(34:20):
in the Caribbean region aroundnatural resource development and
extraction by working people,and also to avoid some of the
mistakes that were made in thecases of Trinidad and Tobago and
Jamaica with bauxite and so on,right.
And so how can we learn andbuild on right?
(34:42):
For example, in Trinidad andTobago, out of the 1970s Black
Power uprising, there was a waveof nationalizations of the oil
sector.
But that nationalization,within the context of a global
economy where this country isstill in a dependent position,
(35:05):
it still depends on exports, itstill depends on foreign markets
, there were limits to thesustainability of
nationalization, to statenationalization, I should say to
(35:31):
there were limits to that as astrategy for income, national
income, and for the conditionsfor working people.
And so I think there's a lotthat we can learn from each
other to avoid these mistakesand also to hold our leaders
accountable.
I mean Guyanese president,barbados president.
They're out there in the publicstage pushing for reparations,
reparations for histories ofgenocide and enslavement in the
(35:58):
Caribbean.
Okay, we can talk about thereparations movement and pushing
for reparations and what theimperial countries owe the
Caribbean, but at the same time,we also have to talk about how
these political leaders are alsoengaging in neocolonial
(36:18):
politics and oppressive actionsrepressive actions against their
own people, against their ownpeople to have to work through
in the Caribbean with regard tonatural resources and
(36:42):
post-colonial development.
Speaker 1 (36:44):
I love that you brought us to that, to your
point, using that BBC interviewthat I do definitely remember
going viral, so I'll be sure toinclude it on our Strictly Facts
syllabus for you all to checkout.
You mentioned a lot of scholars.
You know local organizationslike Red Thread etc.
(37:05):
Who are doing this work forreally campaigning and you know,
highlighting these historiesand things to that nature.
But before we get there, whatare just to bring us to our sort
of contemporary pop culturemoment, as I always love to do a
bit?
What are some of your favoriteexamples of this history and how
(37:29):
it shows up in our popularculture?
Speaker 2 (37:32):
And you know I'm open to all things, whether that be
songs, whether that be novels,documentaries etc yes, this is a
really great question because Ican't think of like one song or
because there's a lot out there.
But I think, if I think abouthow this shows up in our popular
(37:52):
culture I, being from Trinidadand Tobago, I think about
Calypso and Calypso being thatart form that does this work of
teaching our history and ourpolitics to the public, to the
people right, of challengingthose in power and challenging
(38:17):
society to take a long and hardlook at ourselves.
This is the genre that I reallyturn to to kind of understand
our conditions, our experiences,our aspirations, the voice of
the people through that medium.
(38:39):
And most recently, the calypsothat has been on my mind is 1990
, which is a calypso by DavidRudder.
You know, david Rudder is, ofcourse, one of the greatest
calypso.
I grew up listening to davidrudder, but also we have other,
(39:00):
you know, mighty sparrow, blackstalin.
We have many, many calypsonyan's, um, lord, relator,
shadow who have talked aboutthese issues through song.
But I'm reminded of davidRudder's 1990 because very
recently there has been therelease of an audio documentary
(39:25):
called 1990.
It's about the attempted coupin Trinidad and Tobago and it's
called the Lost Tapes and I wasrecently listening to that
documentary and I was very muchreminded of David Rudder's
Calypso, which really capturedthe conditions and the feeling
(39:53):
and the sentiments of society,the anxieties and so on during
that period in Trinidad andTobago history.
Speaker 1 (40:03):
So I would definitely encourage our listeners to.
Speaker 2 (40:06):
You know, listen to also the documentary.
But you know, go back to DavidRudder's 1990.
Speaker 1 (40:15):
Calypso.
The documentary wasn't out yet,but a few years ago we had
recorded an episode whichbriefly touched on the twos.
So I always love when ourepisodes come back into place,
so I'll be sure to include allof those things on our Strictly
Facts syllabus, of course.
My final question for you, drEdwards I think in addition and
even beyond to what we've talkedabout in terms of state
(40:38):
formation and evolution andgrowth, right, the world at
large is really dealing with theeffects of imperialism and
liberation movements of Haiti,as always.
Right, palestine and much more.
What do you see as really thepower of the working class,
(41:01):
unionizing and social movementsin really creating massive
social change for the future?
Speaker 2 (41:09):
Yes, I am very excited and I'm very hopeful in
terms of our ability to organizeagainst imperialism and
capitalist exploitation.
I think that what we have seenin the last year is the real
(41:32):
coming together of people aroundthe US, canada and France's
invasion of Haiti, and whileCARICOM Caribbean Community, the
(41:54):
organization, has beensupportive of such actions by
these imperial aggressors, whileKenya has been supportive and
facilitating these imperialaggressors in the Caribbean
region, people on the groundhave been in support of Haiti.
I'll just quote Bujubantan, whoI recently saw on a different
(42:18):
podcastantan, who was I recentlysaw on a different podcast,
drink Champs.
I saw it too, drink Champs,where he said Haiti did not bow
and we will not bow to theseimperial aggressors.
And so people are organizing,petitions are being written sent
, support being sent to theHaitian people in their efforts
(42:44):
to resist this constant assaultthat they are under for daring
to want to be free.
And also Palestine we seearound the world.
The global majority of peoplearound the world are in support
of Palestine.
(43:05):
They are against colonialismand imperialism, against
genocide, and students haveorganized, ordinary folks have
organized.
Progressive organizations havecome together.
Students have organized,ordinary folks have organized.
Progressive organizations havecome together to be in support
of the Palestinian resistance.
(43:26):
And so people are doing things,young people are doing things,
and it's hopeful.
It's a very energizing time andwhat we can only hope that we
build on the gains of formergenerations and avoid also the
(43:51):
mistakes that were made in thepast.
We can always learn from thepast and build on our radical
traditions that already exist.
We're never starting fromscratch.
We always have, you know, toolsand techniques and traditions
(44:13):
that we could draw on.
It's both exciting and daunting, but the fact that people are
organizing is very hopeful.
Speaker 1 (44:22):
Beautifully said.
Well, thank you so much, drEdwards.
I think you've brought so muchto our discussion in terms of
thinking beyond the metrics,right, thinking beyond the
numbers and allowing us toreally value that our natural
resources are really, you know,in our people, right, in our
ability to connect with oneanother across a variety of
(44:45):
dimensions and to topple all ofthe isms and schisms, as you've
said, for the future of a betterworld.
So I appreciate you so much forsharing with us.
As I mentioned a few times, Iwill, of course, link all of the
things we discussed on theStrictly Facts website, so be
sure to head there for some ofthe literature and songs and
(45:08):
things that we discussed todayand, as always, for our
listeners.
Thank you so much for tuning inand little more.
Thanks for tuning in toStrictly Facts.
Visit strictlyfactspodcastcomfor more information from each
episode.
Follow us at Strictly Facts Podon Instagram and Facebook and
at Strictly Facts PD on Twitter.
Welcome to Strictly Facts, a guide to Caribbean
history and culture, hosted byme, alexandria Miller.
Strictly Facts teaches thehistory, politics and activism
of the Caribbean and connectsthese themes to contemporary
music and popular culture.
Wah-gwan, wah-gwan.
(00:23):
And welcome back to anotherepisode of Strictly Facts a
guide to Caribbean history andculture.
I'm your host, alexandria, hereto share another tremendous
episode on Caribbean history andits impact on our present and
future.
We are debuting this episode afew weeks after Independence Day
for Trinidad and Tobago, so bigshout out to all my Trinidad
(00:43):
listeners, who celebrated 62years of independence on August
31st.
Our focus for today centers onTrinidad, its development in the
20th century leading up toindependence and its aftermath,
what we might really considerour natural resources in the
region and how we can leveragethese resources to be successful
(01:06):
nations, and so we'll get intothat a little bit more in
today's episode.
But before we get there, Idefinitely want to introduce our
listeners to Dr Sophia Edwards,assistant Professor in the
Department of Sociology at JohnsHopkins University.
So, dr Edwards, it's so greatto have you.
Thank you again in advance forjoining us.
(01:26):
Why don't we begin with yousharing with us a bit about
where you call home, whatinspires your passion for your
research on Caribbean labor anddevelopment within the Caribbean
, but also the global South atlarge.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
Well, thank you so much, Alexandria, for inviting
me to this very importantpodcast.
I'm delighted to be here and tobe having this conversation
with you, especially as wecommemorate the Independence Day
celebrations in Trinidad andTobago.
So, in a broad sense, I aminterested in the historical
(02:07):
factors and processes that shapestates and development in the
global South, and I focusspecifically on Trinidad and
Tobago and the Caribbeancountries.
But I'm interested in thisgeneral question and I am
theorizing and documenting howracism, colonialism and
(02:30):
resistance by racialized peoplehelp shape the construction of
state institutions and, in turn,the long-run development
trajectories of countries thatwere formerly colonized.
But my path to this was not astraight one.
It was a very windy road withmany obstacles, all of which, I
(02:52):
think, shaped my intellectualdevelopment.
But looking back on thatjourney, I always had a seed
that I was able to water, and Ifound also other people who
could also water that seed.
And as I try to water the seedof others, I'm terrible at
metaphors and I'm also terribleat gardening, so this is
(03:15):
probably not the best metaphor,but I really do see my
intellectual development in thisway.
So I grew up in Trinidad andTobago and in my formal
education I did not start off inthe social sciences.
As maybe our listeners know, inTrinidad and Tobago the
(03:35):
education system, being rootedin British colonial roots, is
very specialized, so I wasplaced into the sciences in
secondary school, studyingphysics, chemistry, biology,
math, and so I had very littleexposure to the social sciences
at that time.
In secondary school, though, myfriends and I would sit around
(03:59):
during lunch and we would talkabout how vicious the US was in
the world and how Americanizedour material values were.
In Trinidad and Tobago, wewould talk about how the British
wronged us, we talked aboutslavery, we talked about the
fact that if you want to travelto the UK or the US or Canada,
(04:23):
you needed to get a visa, butthen Canadians and Americans and
British people could just waltzinto Trinidad and Tobago.
And so you know.
We talked about how ourresources, that Trinidad and
Tobago had oil, but how come wewere not seeing the benefits of
that oil?
Why are the roads not pavedwhen we have asphalt, a huge
(04:49):
asphalt lake?
And so these were the issuesthat we would sit around and
talk about during lunchtime, andwe didn't have the precise
theories of imperialism orracial capitalism.
We were not using that languagelanguage, but this is what we
were talking about and we werelistening to Rastafari and
(05:12):
conscious reggae music, and sothis is how we got our political
education.
It was not in the formal schoolsystem.
It was not.
You know, I went to a catholicall girls high school history
was not even a part.
I went to a Catholic all girlshigh school History was not even
a part of my education, beingon the science track.
So between ages 13 to 18, Ididn't study history.
(05:34):
You know, what I learned waswhat I learned from grounding
with folks outside of school,and so, you know, I went to
college.
I did the thing the science andyou know, went to college.
I did the thing the science andyou know, continued on that
track.
But I did take courses insociology, in history, and then
(05:55):
I studied abroad, in Australia,and I think my experiences
traveling to other countries,being a black woman traveling
through other countries, being aBlack woman traveling through
other countries really shapedthen what I wanted to study.
I took, while I was in Australia, classes in Aboriginal history
(06:17):
and culture, race and ethnicstudies, international
development, and then I reallyfelt like this is really what
I'm more interested in.
But it's not that I came tothat during that formal college
education process.
It was always that seed, as Imentioned, that I had in high
school, and before that I hadalways been interested in these
(06:41):
questions, and so, anyways, Ifinished my bachelor's degree,
but I knew I didn't want tocontinue in the natural sciences
, so I came back to Trinidadafter college and I ended up
working as a research assistantfor a sociology professor at the
University of the West Indies.
His name is Biko Agassino, andwe worked on a project about CLR
(07:05):
James and the Black Jacobinsociology of.
CLR, james, and so for thisproject I had to read all
James's books and we interviewedscholars who had really engaged
with his work and knew his work, and so it was so
intellectually invigorating.
That's where I really got todelve into these questions about
(07:26):
labor, race, the Caribbean,colonialism, uneven development,
and so that's when I decided toapply to graduate school and go
into sociology to be able tostudy these issues, of which I
was most intellectually excitedby.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
I always love hearing about people's journeys to
their studies because, as yourightfully mentioned, right,
they're so impacted by the worldthat we live in our lens in the
world, based off our ownidentities, the things that
we've learned as well, but also,just, you know how we take up
space in our experiences.
So thank you so much forsharing, and even this episode
(08:10):
was really inspired by my ownexperiences.
This year I had the opportunityto travel to Trinidad for the
first time and you know, as Ithink we all do, not just in the
Caribbean, you know it's sortof anywhere you go, do not just
in the Caribbean, you know, it'ssort of anywhere you go.
But having been to Jamaica andobviously being from Jamaica and
having traveled to other partsof the Caribbean, I do that sort
of compare and contrast thingright when I'm like, okay, this
(08:34):
is similar.
You know these things aredifferent, et cetera.
And it really helped me to sortof think about what we consider
development and progress in theregion, and you know especially
how that has impacted ourgrowing diaspora across the
world and things to that.
And so you know, I think somestudies even really point to
(08:58):
Trinidad's success in terms of,like an economic success thing.
You mentioned oil, right, buthow this is a very push and pull
factor, as you rightfully werestating having economic riches
from oil, but then you know howthat then plays into the actual
lived experiences of its people,right?
(09:20):
And so there are, of course,several reasons to describe, you
know, how these states havedeveloped, especially
post-colonially.
But what, in your view, aresome of the key factors that
have led to Trinidad andTobago's success, as it's been
deemed, in the more than 60years since independence?
Speaker 2 (09:41):
Yes, this is a really important question.
It's the working people, it isall about the working people and
, as you mentioned, Trinidad andTobago's path is a complicated
one.
If we're thinking about, arepeople free from super
(10:03):
exploitation and are they freefrom all forms of oppression?
Are they free from racism andpatriarchy and sexism?
Well, the answer to that is no,Right.
We know that that Trinidad andTobago it's the workers don't
own the means of production andeven though the country may
register now as a high incomecountry it's according to these
(10:27):
World Bank indicators it stillrelies on having to export its
natural resources, it stillrelies on access to foreign
markets, access to foreigncapital.
So it hasn't broken thosechains of structural dependency
that were established whenTrinidad was integrated into the
(10:50):
world global economy throughcolonialism.
So in that sense, we can seethat Trinidad and Tobago does
not qualify as a quote-unquotesuccess.
But even though Trinidad andTobago might remain still in
this same relative position inthe global hierarchy of wealth
(11:13):
and power, working people haveseen significant improvements in
their material conditions andhuman welfare.
If we look at infant mortality,you know lowering of that
infant mortality over time,increased life expectancy over
time, expanded access toeducation and generally a
(11:35):
raising of living standards andwell-being.
These are all measures on whichTrinidad and Tobago far
outperforms many other formerlycolonized countries, and what's
interesting about this is thisis not what is generally
predicted for countries that arerich in natural resources or
(11:57):
that have a history ofcolonialism or multi-ethnic
composition like Trinidad andTobago.
Most development theories thatwe are familiar with in the
social sciences would say thatTrinidad and Tobago should be
cursed right.
Should be cursed by its naturalresources and be stuck in a
(12:21):
trap of poverty andunderdevelopment, or it should
be cursed by ethnic rivalriesstill see significant economic
and social development andformal democratic systems in
(12:41):
comparison to other places thatare in a similar situation.
So how can we account for this?
And for me, it is about theforce and the vitality of
working people.
This is my answer to thisquestion and in my own work and
my book, which will be comingout later this academic year.
(13:05):
So you know, Trinidad and Tobagohas a history of powerful
working class mobilization,working people who are striking,
protesting, demonstrating, youknow, out on the streets, and
that mobilization had beeninterracial, involving African
(13:25):
and Indian workers, who were thebulk of the workforce, who were
in different economic sectors,like sugar and oil and public
sector workers and unemployedpeople right.
It involved women and children.
So it was a united movementthat was vociferously against
racial oppression, againstcolonial domination, against the
(13:49):
exploitation of their labor,for wages and working conditions
to be improved, but they alsowanted full-scale transformation
of the economic, political,social and cultural order of the
society.
And these working peopleself-organized and erupted in
(14:14):
1919, in the mid-1930s and inthe 1960s, ultimately peaking in
the Black Power movement of1970.
And they pushed their employersand the colonial state to be
more redistributive and to bemore democratic.
So in this sense we can seethat these gains that we've seen
(14:40):
over time in terms of infantmortality, life expectancy,
these outcomes are the result ofthe efforts of working people.
Nothing was ever given to them.
Whatever gains they achievedright and, as I said, health,
schooling, well-being, dec,decolonizing their minds it was
(15:02):
all because they fought for itthat, I think, brings us to
really a tremendous point wherewe think of.
Speaker 1 (15:10):
You know, everybody hails independence because it's
the day that we celebrate, right, but there were tremendous
movements leading up to thispoint, and obviously
subsequently after as well, toget us to having these
independence days.
And you know moments ofcelebration, especially, I think
, the 30s, becomes a big momentfor the Caribbean in terms of
(15:32):
labor and pushing our people inprotest, of course, to really
rally behind and to rallytogether and shape these stories
and histories that we come toknow right.
One thing that I think isreally important in terms of
what you've shared with us isTrinidad's multiracial,
(15:55):
multiethnic populace, but alsoit's multisectoral one.
Right, you shared that.
You know people are indifferent labor positions,
whether they were working insugar, whether they were working
in oil, things to that nature,and so could you briefly, you
know, share the histories behindthese factors and how they led
to this point that you'resharing, which I think is really
(16:17):
important.
I want to also mention that youknow that's sort of the also
importance of social sciences.
In a sense, humanities andsocial science work.
If we're just economists orwhatever, right, we would just
strictly look at the numberswithout also paying attention to
the impact of the people andlives that are shared.
(16:37):
But ultimately, to get back tomy question, the impact of the
populace being multiracial andmultisectoral as well.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
Yes, I mean this is a great question because, in
terms of the multiracial aspect,for instance, is one of these
factors that the colonial elitesreally pushed differentially
racializing people in order toexploit them and to divide them
(17:13):
right.
And so, in terms of building amultiracial movement, workers
had to fight against andovercome this divide and rule,
divide and exploit strategies,cross racial difference or
perceived racial differences orconstructed racial differences
(17:43):
towards this goal of liberation.
And I look at how workers didthat all the way back to 1919
and how they did it in the 1930sand in the 1960s, and we find
that, like you know, it reallycomes down to relations between
(18:04):
people.
And also they shared similarconditions.
As we will recall, indianworkers were brought from India
to Trinidad specifically toundermine Black workers,
specifically so that the Blackworkers who were newly
(18:25):
emancipated from slavery, whowere demanding higher wages or
even wages at all for their work, and the plantation-owning
class did not want to pay them.
They brought these Indianworkers to Chernobyl and Tobago
to have a supply of controllable, cheap labor.
(18:47):
And so how do you build acrossthese divides?
And we find that we have laborunions and labor organizers that
are deliberately trying tobring together this multiracial
movement and these labororganizers they were both
African descended or Africansand Indians, and they worked to,
(19:12):
you know, have rallies togetherto have trade unions where,
even if they were Africandominated, they had Indian
representation, and so to kindof work across those lines to
build this unity.
In the case of the 1930s, in1935, when Italy invaded
(19:39):
Ethiopia, right right, thisbecame a rallying cry for the
Wilkin people in Trinidad andTobago and we find that Indian
organizers worked alongsideAfrican organizers to build a
multiracial movement over thefact that what happened in
(19:59):
Ethiopia is an example, a caseof imperial aggression.
And that is something thateverybody, whether you're Indian
or African, everybody can unitearound that, because what is
happening to the Ethiopians ishappening to us, it's happening
to other Africans, is happeningto other people who have been
(20:21):
subjugated under colonialdomination.
So these are the ways in whichthese working people built
solidarity across racial linesand came together, built
solidarity across sectors andreally united themselves towards
(20:43):
this common goal of pushing thecolonial states to be more
democratic and be moreredistributive.
And this is something that isrelevant outside of the case of
Trinidad and Tobago, right,because this is one of the most
important questions forprogressive movements everywhere
(21:04):
.
How do we build across raciallines?
It's an important question inother parts of the Caribbean.
It's an important question inthe United States, in the UK,
every France, everywhere we go.
This is something thatmovements have had to contend
with, and so there are importantlessons there that we can learn
and adopt as we try to buildliberatory movements across the
(21:28):
world.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
You paint a great picture for us in terms of
building multiracial connections.
How did that also shape thebuilding of multisectoral
connections?
Speaker 2 (21:43):
Yes, so, at least in the case of Trinidad and Tobago,
because of the way in whichdifferent racial groups were
channeled into specific sectorsof the economy, right, so
Indians were brought to Trinidadto work on sugar estates,
(22:04):
primarily so they wereconcentrated in the sugar sector
because Black workers wereactively pushed out of the sugar
sector and also because theydidn't necessarily want to work
in the plantations either afteremancipation.
But they were also pushed out ofthe sector actively because the
plantation owning class didn'twant to pay them.
(22:26):
They moved into public sectorwork and moved into the oil
sector, and so these differentsectors of the economy were
racialized because of thosedynamics.
And so by building thismultiracial movement they were
also able to build acrossdifferent sectors of the economy
(22:48):
.
And I will also put in domesticworkers, who are primarily
women, who are also a corecomponent of these movements,
and there is work by ProfessorRhoda Redock in Trinidad and
Tobago who really focuses onwomen workers in this time
(23:09):
period and how they were socentral to the movement as well.
So it was across sectors,across races, across genders,
and because they were able tounite in these historical
periods, they were able to forcethe colonial officials and
(23:30):
force employers to concede tocertain demands.
And when we look at that incomparison to times where they
were not united, when they werenot, you know, collaboratively
working together towards thisgoal, well, they didn't get to
anything.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
Race and class particularly, are very important
in your work, as you mentioned.
As we've been talking about, wehave these moments leading up
to independence, of course,where unity across sectors,
across ethnic lines, is veryimportant in helping shape and
become independent nations, forTrinidad and Tobago particularly
(24:09):
.
How have you seen these factorsimpacting Trinidad and Tobago's
state performance in theaftermath of independence and
maybe how they differ acrossother parts of the region as
well?
Speaker 2 (24:23):
The Caribbean has historically been at the center,
at the heart of world-scaletransformations.
Scale transformations Europeanexpansion for raw materials and
markets historically spurred thedevelopment of all kinds of
(24:43):
isms and schisms to justify thebrutal treatment of human beings
.
So they organized societiesalong these lines in order to
extract profits from us and toprevent us from coming together
as one to upend this oppressivecapitalist system In the
(25:05):
Caribbean, thinking about theplantation economies, but also
resource extraction, how theywere organized in these ways.
So, for me, we cannotunderstand our conditions and
experiences without a deep andserious understanding and a
serious analysis of race andclass.
(25:28):
Together we have to contendwith how groups that have been
differentially racialized relateto each other, as I mentioned
before.
How do they build unity andsolidarity across these
constructed differences?
We have to understand who isdominating and who is being
(25:49):
exploited and dispossessed.
We need to understand race andclass, understand colorism,
which is so rampant across theCaribbean, colorism and
Eurocentrism that is embedded inour society.
And I think it also helps us tounderstand really crucial
(26:10):
questions which continue to berelevant to this day.
What does it mean to have Blackand brown faces in high places?
Meaning?
Are the masses of the peoplebetter off because we have Black
heads of state across theCaribbean and Black CEOs and
Indian CEOs and heads of stateCEOs and Indian CEOs and heads
(26:33):
of states.
How can we think about BarackObama's presidency?
How can we think about RishiSunak in the UK?
We are now having to askourselves this question with
regard to Kamala Harris.
We have examples from theCaribbean.
We have examples of leadersacross Africa.
(26:54):
Right that it is really reallycrucial that we really seriously
analyze the intersection ofrace and class within the
world's capitalist system inorder to understand our futures.
And Walter Rodney, he used theterm flag independence, right,
(27:19):
which is to say that we havethese leaders, these black and
brown leaders, but thestructures of exploitation, of
profit making, of oppression hasnot changed.
More than that, they are instrategic positions facilitating
(27:46):
the exploitation of the blackand brown masses around the
world.
And so, you know, we reallyneed to understand all these
various, as I said, isms andschisms to that, and this is
something we get from rastaright that we have to understand
(28:08):
this in order to um reallytruly understand what role these
people play in the globalcircuits of profit-making and to
understand our conditions andour experiences.
These, you know, supposedsaviors are not always.
(28:29):
You know, if we lookhistorically, if we take
seriously what their roles andactions have been to support
imperialism, to supportdomination and exploitation I
think it's very hard to see themas our CVS.
As a result, I read the work ofWalter Rodney, as I said, cielo
(28:53):
James, oliver Cox, sylviaWinter, to help me understand
race and class together, andcontemporaries.
We have a lot of people workingon these topics, like Rhoda
Reddock, as I mentioned, kestonPerry, tam Manisha, john Ryan
Jobson, nicole Burrows, tayembaSalandi.
(29:17):
All of these people are doingthis work, trying to grapple
with these questions, to reallyunderstand what our conditions
and our lived experiences arecurrently and what they are
likely to be in the globaleconomy economy, our discussion
(29:38):
on development, on resources, aswe've been talking about, on
our conditions.
Speaker 1 (29:40):
And you know, independence movements are,
they're, all you know, sort oftied and linked right, and I of
course can't have us have adiscussion about our past
without again sort of bringingit into contemporary times.
And you know, we've seen of late, particularly with Barbados and
several others of course, sonot solely Barbados, but you
(30:02):
know, this movement towards, youknow, our nation's becoming
Republican and getting away fromthe Commonwealth right.
We've also seen our ownresources for years really being
exploited, exported, depletedtremendously.
And of course that brings me tothe case of Guyana, which it
(30:25):
was a few months ago, I think,at the height of our minds and
maybe the rally around it hasdied down a little bit, but
thinking about Guyana and itsnatural resources, especially in
the Essequibo region.
And so how do you think ourstates and others really compare
in this trajectory, you know,in terms of the future of our
(30:49):
regions, ensuring that you knowwe are prioritizing ourselves
and our well-being, and thewell-being of the mass is really
not the figureheads and thingsto that nature and what
takeaways or actions do you hopewe see modeled in our evolution
?
Speaker 2 (31:09):
Yes, this is a very important question, because it
is important to know where wecame from in order to know where
we're going and what the futureholds.
And you know, I'm reminded ofthis video clip that was
circulating online of a BBCjournalist interviewing the
(31:33):
president of Guyana, presidentIrfan Ali, and the journalist
was very fresh with himself.
He was asserting that Guyaneseoil extraction and oil
development is now significantlycontributing to the world's
carbon emissions, and so Guyanabears some responsibility for
(31:55):
the situation that we're intoday regarding the climate
crisis.
And well, the president ofGuyana took him to task, and
rightly so, for his arrogance.
You know this white British manthere condescendingly lecturing
Guyanese officials on what theyshould and should not be doing
with their resources, and alsofor his ignorance regarding
(32:19):
world history and who are thegreatest sources of carbon
emissions and the historical andcontemporary drivers of the
climate crisis, which is theEuropean imperial countries.
So the president of Guyana laidinto him.
However, I think we also haveto pause and remember that the
(32:41):
Guyanese government has openedits doors to ExxonMobil for them
to suck out the country'sresources, to engage in
relentless resource extractionon the lands of Guyanese people,
of indigenous people's lands,of Guyanese people, of
indigenous people's lands,displacing communities,
exploiting workers, right thecorruption, deepening that
(33:03):
divide between wealthy elitesand working people and
entrenching racialized partypolitics in Guyana.
These issues have beenhighlighted by a Guyanese
organizations like Red Thread,activist scholars like Dr Alyssa
Trotz and Dr David Hines, andso you know, we really have to
(33:32):
think very carefully about therole of natural resources in our
development and the role ofpeople.
Trinidad and Tobago and Guyanahave a lot of similarities in
terms of their histories andsocieties, in terms of
colonialism and the racialdynamics, right, and so there's
(33:57):
a lot that can be learned, notat the level of um, you know,
between these elites,necessarily, but among working
people, about organizing,strategizing to kind of build on
and expand some of theachievements that we have made
(34:20):
in the Caribbean region aroundnatural resource development and
extraction by working people,and also to avoid some of the
mistakes that were made in thecases of Trinidad and Tobago and
Jamaica with bauxite and so on,right.
And so how can we learn andbuild on right?
(34:42):
For example, in Trinidad andTobago, out of the 1970s Black
Power uprising, there was a waveof nationalizations of the oil
sector.
But that nationalization,within the context of a global
economy where this country isstill in a dependent position,
(35:05):
it still depends on exports, itstill depends on foreign markets
, there were limits to thesustainability of
nationalization, to statenationalization, I should say to
(35:31):
there were limits to that as astrategy for income, national
income, and for the conditionsfor working people.
And so I think there's a lotthat we can learn from each
other to avoid these mistakesand also to hold our leaders
accountable.
I mean Guyanese president,barbados president.
They're out there in the publicstage pushing for reparations,
reparations for histories ofgenocide and enslavement in the
(35:58):
Caribbean.
Okay, we can talk about thereparations movement and pushing
for reparations and what theimperial countries owe the
Caribbean, but at the same time,we also have to talk about how
these political leaders are alsoengaging in neocolonial
(36:18):
politics and oppressive actionsrepressive actions against their
own people, against their ownpeople to have to work through
in the Caribbean with regard tonatural resources and
(36:42):
post-colonial development.
Speaker 1 (36:44):
I love that you brought us to that, to your
point, using that BBC interviewthat I do definitely remember
going viral, so I'll be sure toinclude it on our Strictly Facts
syllabus for you all to checkout.
You mentioned a lot of scholars.
You know local organizationslike Red Thread etc.
(37:05):
Who are doing this work forreally campaigning and you know,
highlighting these historiesand things to that nature.
But before we get there, whatare just to bring us to our sort
of contemporary pop culturemoment, as I always love to do a
bit?
What are some of your favoriteexamples of this history and how
(37:29):
it shows up in our popularculture?
Speaker 2 (37:32):
And you know I'm open to all things, whether that be
songs, whether that be novels,documentaries etc yes, this is a
really great question because Ican't think of like one song or
because there's a lot out there.
But I think, if I think abouthow this shows up in our popular
(37:52):
culture I, being from Trinidadand Tobago, I think about
Calypso and Calypso being thatart form that does this work of
teaching our history and ourpolitics to the public, to the
people right, of challengingthose in power and challenging
(38:17):
society to take a long and hardlook at ourselves.
This is the genre that I reallyturn to to kind of understand
our conditions, our experiences,our aspirations, the voice of
the people through that medium.
(38:39):
And most recently, the calypsothat has been on my mind is 1990
, which is a calypso by DavidRudder.
You know, david Rudder is, ofcourse, one of the greatest
calypso.
I grew up listening to davidrudder, but also we have other,
(39:00):
you know, mighty sparrow, blackstalin.
We have many, many calypsonyan's, um, lord, relator,
shadow who have talked aboutthese issues through song.
But I'm reminded of davidRudder's 1990 because very
recently there has been therelease of an audio documentary
(39:25):
called 1990.
It's about the attempted coupin Trinidad and Tobago and it's
called the Lost Tapes and I wasrecently listening to that
documentary and I was very muchreminded of David Rudder's
Calypso, which really capturedthe conditions and the feeling
(39:53):
and the sentiments of society,the anxieties and so on during
that period in Trinidad andTobago history.
Speaker 1 (40:03):
So I would definitely encourage our listeners to.
Speaker 2 (40:06):
You know, listen to also the documentary.
But you know, go back to DavidRudder's 1990.
Speaker 1 (40:15):
Calypso.
The documentary wasn't out yet,but a few years ago we had
recorded an episode whichbriefly touched on the twos.
So I always love when ourepisodes come back into place,
so I'll be sure to include allof those things on our Strictly
Facts syllabus, of course.
My final question for you, drEdwards I think in addition and
even beyond to what we've talkedabout in terms of state
(40:38):
formation and evolution andgrowth, right, the world at
large is really dealing with theeffects of imperialism and
liberation movements of Haiti,as always.
Right, palestine and much more.
What do you see as really thepower of the working class,
(41:01):
unionizing and social movementsin really creating massive
social change for the future?
Speaker 2 (41:09):
Yes, I am very excited and I'm very hopeful in
terms of our ability to organizeagainst imperialism and
capitalist exploitation.
I think that what we have seenin the last year is the real
(41:32):
coming together of people aroundthe US, canada and France's
invasion of Haiti, and whileCARICOM Caribbean Community, the
(41:54):
organization, has beensupportive of such actions by
these imperial aggressors, whileKenya has been supportive and
facilitating these imperialaggressors in the Caribbean
region, people on the groundhave been in support of Haiti.
I'll just quote Bujubantan, whoI recently saw on a different
(42:18):
podcastantan, who was I recentlysaw on a different podcast,
drink Champs.
I saw it too, drink Champs,where he said Haiti did not bow
and we will not bow to theseimperial aggressors.
And so people are organizing,petitions are being written sent
, support being sent to theHaitian people in their efforts
(42:44):
to resist this constant assaultthat they are under for daring
to want to be free.
And also Palestine we seearound the world.
The global majority of peoplearound the world are in support
of Palestine.
(43:05):
They are against colonialismand imperialism, against
genocide, and students haveorganized, ordinary folks have
organized.
Progressive organizations havecome together.
Students have organized,ordinary folks have organized.
Progressive organizations havecome together to be in support
of the Palestinian resistance.
(43:26):
And so people are doing things,young people are doing things,
and it's hopeful.
It's a very energizing time andwhat we can only hope that we
build on the gains of formergenerations and avoid also the
(43:51):
mistakes that were made in thepast.
We can always learn from thepast and build on our radical
traditions that already exist.
We're never starting fromscratch.
We always have, you know, toolsand techniques and traditions
(44:13):
that we could draw on.
It's both exciting and daunting, but the fact that people are
organizing is very hopeful.
Speaker 1 (44:22):
Beautifully said.
Well, thank you so much, drEdwards.
I think you've brought so muchto our discussion in terms of
thinking beyond the metrics,right, thinking beyond the
numbers and allowing us toreally value that our natural
resources are really, you know,in our people, right, in our
ability to connect with oneanother across a variety of
(44:45):
dimensions and to topple all ofthe isms and schisms, as you've
said, for the future of a betterworld.
So I appreciate you so much forsharing with us.
As I mentioned a few times, Iwill, of course, link all of the
things we discussed on theStrictly Facts website, so be
sure to head there for some ofthe literature and songs and
(45:08):
things that we discussed todayand, as always, for our
listeners.
Thank you so much for tuning inand little more.
Thanks for tuning in toStrictly Facts.
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