November 20, 2024 • 40 mins
Supporting people leaders isn't just a nice-to-have; it's an economic imperative for thriving teams and successful organizations.
On this episode we're chatting with Cheryl Fields Tyler, founder of Blue Beyond Consulting, about their groundbreaking research report, "Winning on the People Side of Business."
Learn how to balance high expectations with deep trust, support your mid-level managers, and redefine well-being beyond just surface-level perks. Plus, discover why feedback and communication are your secret weapons. Tune in to hear about leadership as a sacred role, the key to effective team collaboration, and making work a place of growth and joy.
Resources:
Looking for a community of leaders where you can tackle real challenges, share wins, and grow together—without office politics getting in the way? Join Leadership Thought Partners, a coach-led, group-directed space launching in July—early bird pricing ends May 31, 2025 at strongleadersserve.com/ltp!
Connect on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/teri-m-schmidt/
Get 1-on-1 leadership support from Teri here: https://www.strongleadersserve.com/coaching
Set up an intro call with Teri: https://calendly.com/terischmidt/discoverycall
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome back again to strongleaders serve.
Supporting people, leaders.
Isn't just a nice to have.
It's an economic imperative forthriving teams and successful
organizations.
And on this episode.
I'm excited to be chatting withCheryl Fields, Tyler founder of
blue, beyond consulting.
About their groundbreakingresearch report.
(00:21):
Titled winning on the peopleside of business.
In our conversation, we talkabout how to balance high
expectations with deep trust.
How to support your mid-levelmanagers.
And how to refine wellbeingbeyond just surface level perks.
A little bit more about Cheryl.
Her focus for over 30 years hasbeen building organizations
(00:42):
where both the business and thepeople thrive.
Her distinct, innovative andpractical perspective has been
featured in various media,including CNBC, BBC.
Fast company and forums.
In 2020, she received the, forall leader award from the great
place to work Institute.
(01:02):
And under her leadership bluebeyond has repeatedly been
recognized as one of the best,small and medium workplaces by
fortune.
And as an Inc 5,000 company.
We had a great conversation andI'm confident that you will walk
away today from this episodewith.
At least.
One learning that you can applyto your leadership.
(01:25):
So let's get to it.
I'm Terry Schmidt.
Executive and leadership coachat strong leader serve.
Where we partner withcompassionate driven leaders and
their teams to transformpotential into performance.
And this is the strong leaderserve podcast.
Teri Schmidt (01:58):
Well, hello, Cheryl.
Welcome to the strong leaderserve podcast.
Cheryl Fields Tyler (02:02):
Oh, I'm glad to be here.
Thank you, Terry.
Teri Schmidt (02:03):
I am really looking forward to this
conversation.
I love what BlueBeyondConsulting does your emphasis on
creating the deep trust and thehigh expectations.
It speaks directly to what we'redoing at StrongLeaderServe as
well.
So I'm excited to dig into thenew research report that you
just released, Winning on thePeople Side of Business.
(02:26):
But before we get into that, I'dlove to To hear a little bit
more about your story and kindof the experiences that got you
to where you are today leadingthis wonderful organization.
Cheryl Fields Tyler (02:37):
Oh, thanks, Terry.
Yeah, you know, it'sinteresting.
Like so many of us, right?
I never aspired to be amanagement consultant.
I never really thought I wouldbe a business owner, but when I
look back over the course of mylife, I can see.
You know, so many things kind ofled me in this direction.
I actually my undergraduate andgraduate degrees were not in
business or anything associatedwith.
(02:58):
And it was really coming out ofmy PhD program.
I didn't complete the doctorate,but I finished my coursework and
realized I really wanted to be.
Understand what was going on inthe world of business and ended
up actually spending almost 10years in the American
Electronics Association, themain trade association for high
tech companies, best MBA programever because every single day I
(03:18):
got to work with Senior businessleaders, really from companies
across the country, across theglobe, in many cases on the
things that really kept them upat night and I gravitated over
the course of the first coupleof years of my career there to
the people side of business andended up doing policy work,
research work and eventuallystarted consulting.
Business actually under theauspices of the American
(03:41):
Electronics Association reallyfocused on how to apply the
research that at that time wastalked about the high
performance workplace whenorganizations were taking out
middle management layers and allthat good stuff.
Anyway, I'm dating myself here.
This is ancient history now, butthe reason why I give that
context is because I came intoconsulting really from the point
of view of Really thinking aboutwhat it meant for business
(04:04):
leaders to be thinking every dayabout how to maximize the
outcomes for their organizationsand hearing them talk about how
important the people side ofbusiness was to that equation.
And of course, that's onlybecome more important over time
as knowledge work just reallybecomes, you know, kind of a
coin of the realm for almostevery kind of organization,
every kind of business.
(04:26):
Profit making and non profitmaking, by the way in, in the
modern economy.
And when I started Blue Beyond,it was really out of a passion
for kind of two or three thingsthat kind of came together.
One is, is that I was doing, youknow, had been doing research
and consulting on the peopleside of business.
That point for, you know, closeto, I don't know, 15 years and
realized that, you know, therewere a lot of things I was
(04:47):
telling organizations that weregood for people and for business
that I, I really felt like Iwant a chance to see if I could
build an organization myselflike this, right.
Could that, could that reallywork?
And so, you know, I reallywanted to see if that would
work.
A second piece was, is thathonestly, I had found that I,
was not at home in many otherorganizations.
I had had a couple of thingsthat I thought were going to be
(05:08):
great fits and ended up notbeing great fits for me.
And I was kind of feeling like,gosh, where do I belong?
And do I, you know, createsomething that feels like it's,
you know, a place that I wouldreally enjoy working and
hopefully others would enjoythat too.
Or do I keep looking forsomewhere else?
And for me, that kind of kind ofbuilding My own home, so to
speak, was, was reallyattractive.
(05:29):
And then the third piece I won'tlie.
I was a working parent and stillam a parent, still am working.
My kids are now adults, but atthat point, my kids were in
older elementary school agekids.
I have twins and you know, Ijust felt like I really wanted
a.
Chance to have, I always talkedabout it as work life
integration, not necessarilybalance.
Cause if you're a reallymotivated and ambitious person
(05:52):
balance necessarily isn't thegoal.
It's really, but it's like, howcan you get kind of an, an A in
every aspect of your life andnot feel like you have to do all
of the trade offs andcompromises.
basis that working for somebodyelse required.
So anyway, that's really whatcaused me to start blue beyond
consulting.
That was 18 years ago.
You know, I'm really proud ofour track record.
(06:14):
We've been certified as a greatplace to work for many, many
years.
We've been on the fortune greatplace to work list for medium
and small sized companies.
We've been on the ink 4, 000 or5, 000 for four years.
So that kind of vision ofbuilding an organization where
both the people and the businessthrive.
I can't say that it's been aseamless, you know, kind of
journey all the way up and tothe right.
(06:35):
There's definitely been some upsand downs as there is in every
aspect of our life, but it'sbeen an incredibly rewarding
journey, honestly, as rewardingas.
Anything else in my life otherthan being a spouse to my to my
husband and, and, you know, aparent to my kids.
It's just been a really, reallyrewarding journey.
Teri Schmidt (06:55):
Yeah.
And congratulations to you on,on making that leap and, you
know, reading kind of thewriting on the wall that, you
know, it was the right time todo it.
Given that you had this dream ofcreating a business with these
values you believed in andreally couldn't find, The right
place anywhere else.
(07:15):
But that that still is a hugeleap and then to have it
successfully running for so longand all the awards and accolades
you mentioned.
That is a huge accomplishment.
So congratulations on that.
Cheryl Fields Tyler (07:26):
Thank you.
Thank you.
Teri Schmidt (07:28):
A lot of our listeners are kind of that mid
level manager.
So I thought we could spend sometime digging into the research
that you just did in a way thatreally supports them because you
talked about the importance ofsupporting and developing people
managers and, you know, talkingabout how they're so critical to
(07:50):
getting the potential out ofpeople and then the potential.
Out of the organization.
What makes it so important basedon what you saw in the research
and what you've seen workingwith clients over the 18 years
you've been in the business?
Cheryl Fields Tyler (08:05):
Yeah.
Thank you, Terry.
I really appreciate the work youdo.
And yeah, I, you know, look, I,I come from, it sounds maybe a
little bit corny, but I reallyfeel like leading people is.
Thanks.
Really kind of a sacred calling.
It really is.
And I feel that in the moderneconomy which is all about
(08:26):
knowledge and collaboration andbringing people together around
common purpose and common valuesand common goals, and then
achieving things together thatreally create a whole greater
than the sum of the parts.
That work of leading andmanaging people really is not
just a really sacred calling,but it's also an economically
(08:47):
essential calling in ourorganizations that there's just
virtually nothing in our.
World that generates value thatdoesn't require us to work
together across teams and withinteams and that people
leadership, bringing teamstogether, bringing people
together is, is really crucialto every aspect of a value
(09:08):
creation.
What we know now about what ittakes to bring people together
to set the conditions.
For human beings to worktogether effectively is so much
more than we knew 20 years ago.
And sort of my point that I makein the findings of or the
recommendations of our researchreport is really that we are so
(09:31):
really missing out.
If we don't create a, an actualpractice of what it means to
bring the best out of others asin our companies, that we really
need to create an environmentwhere we are honing those
skills.
We're elevating those skills.
We're creating the capabilitiesand the conditions where people
who are gifted at.
(09:52):
Really bringing out the best inothers and bringing people
together around common goals andobjectives that they really have
a chance to hone that craft andto really be excellent as people
managers in a people leaders ina way that's going to serve
their organizations as well asthe purpose of those
organizations in the, in thegreater sense, as it turns out
(10:12):
are.
Folks that responded to oursurvey, it's demographically
representative survey across theU.
S.
knowledge workers, people,managers, H.
R.
leaders and business leadersagree with what I'm saying,
using different words, but agreewith what I'm saying, people,
managers and.
Leaders are more pivotal thanever seen as more pivotal than
(10:34):
ever and across the board in allof those demographic groups it
in terms of what it's going totake for their organizations to
thrive from a business point ofview, we did the same survey 3
years ago and those peoplemanager findings are even
stronger now than they were 3years ago that people managers
(10:54):
are more pivotal than ever tomake organizations thrive now
and in the future.
Teri Schmidt (11:00):
Yeah, that's great to hear.
And I think you mentioned in thewebinar, as you were reviewing
the report that at first youthought it might be just the
people that were attracted toYou know, be part of the
research that you wereconducting would lean a little
bit more toward the people sideof business.
But you found by expanding yourdata set that this really is a
(11:21):
trend across.
Why then?
Because I've talked to severalleaders who are in situations
where People leadership is notsupported or it doesn't seem to
be a priority for the executivesor senior leaders in the
organization.
What is it about supportingpeople leaders that makes it so
challenging?
Cheryl Fields Tyler (11:42):
Well, it might sound kind of trite, but
it's, it's people.
People are complex.
They're very, they're diverse.
They have, you know, they bringwho they are in all of their
lives to the workplace.
And you know, it's it's not aneasy thing to be the leader of
people.
It really is not an easy thing.
That's why I think it deservesto be Real work, real honing,
(12:07):
that practice of how do we leadand manage people more
effectively?
You know, the fact of the matteris, is that, you know human
beings have a lot of differentkinds of motivations.
We bring a lot of differenttypes of styles.
We bring a lot of differentkinds of communication needs and
expectations to the workplace.
And those expectations haveactually gotten even Greater
(12:30):
over the last few years.
I mean, that's one of the otherthings that our study shows.
Terry is, is that people arecoming to the workplace with a
lot of expectations of theirworkplace.
They're expecting anorganization that cares about
their well being.
They're expecting anorganization that will walk the
talk on.
It's culture aspiration.
(12:50):
They're expecting to work forbusinesses that are a force for
good in the world.
And, you know, it ischallenging, I think, to look at
that situation and say, wow, howdo we bring people together in
that kind of scenario so thatpeople can really be their best
together and achieve outcomestogether?
But the truth is, is that again,as I said earlier, You know,
(13:11):
value creation essentiallydepends on that.
And when we look at the data ofyou know, this, of course you
know, Google did this data manyyears ago.
Lots of other companies haverepeated this kind of data
organizations that invest increating great people, managers
and great people, leaders.
Tend to have greater outcomes interms of their their team
(13:33):
performance.
They tend to you know, look moreinnovative, drive innovation.
People tend to feel happierbeing there.
There's even some data in therecent years about these kinds
of organizations actuallydeliver at, higher levels of
business outcomes, whether it bestock performance or other kinds
of measures of customer netpromoter score, these kinds of
(13:55):
things, we get everything weachieve done through people in
the modern business environment.
And so leading people managingpeople is really crucial to all
of that value creation.
Teri Schmidt (14:07):
Yeah, definitely agree.
You know, it's strong leaderserve.
Our definition of leadership iscourageously using your talents
to make a way for others tocourageously use theirs.
So very much in line.
Thank you with unlocking thepotential for leadership.
And just one side note aboutsomething you said about, you
know, people coming into theworkplace with more
(14:29):
expectations.
One of the things I found reallyinteresting in your research is
that that isn't just Gen Z.
Cheryl Fields Tyler (14:35):
No, that's really true.
I mean, you know, there's astereotype that it's the Gen Z
folks that have actually driventhis expectation around
wellbeing, this expectationaround, you know values around
diversity, equity, inclusion,all of those different kinds of
things.
And it's really not true.
There are some generationaldifferences, but honestly, we're
much more aligned than we aredifferent in terms of the kinds
(14:56):
of things that we're looking forfrom our workplace, particularly
around issues about wellbeing,around career development,
around learning.
Around the capacity to grow ourour impact at work on these
types of really crucial issues.
The generations are really veryaligned.
And it's not just Gen Zbasically saying, invest in me,
(15:16):
even clear up to the babyboomers are still saying, I want
to be learning.
I want to be growing.
I want to be achieving at workand growing my career at work
and, and, you know, looking totheir managers and their leaders
for avenues to do so.
Teri Schmidt (15:31):
That, that was, that was fascinating because I
think, you know, you hear a lotthat it is just Gen Z, but to
hear that it is all generationsbeing more aligned around those
expectations.
Which could perhaps put a littlebit more pressure or raise the
importance again, of that peopleleader development.
So what are some of the researchbacked ideas that you have for
(15:54):
doing that development in abetter way?
Cheryl Fields Tyler (15:57):
Yeah, I think I would put it in kind of
three different buckets.
I mean, one is, is that wereally do now have a lot of
science around what it takes tocreate the conditions for growth
mindset for peak performance.
And so the first thing is, makesure that your people leader
development programs areactually grounded in that
(16:17):
neurobiology, the neuroscienceof what it takes for adults to
learn and for adults to createthe context for others to learn.
That's one piece.
A second piece.
And we, we do a lot of this kindof work in our own work with
leader and manager developmentprograms is really help people
examine their own mindset aboutpeople.
I know that sounds kind of youknow, Soft.
(16:40):
But the truth is, is that, Imean, you, you kind of even
mentioned this earlier.
Terry, one of the things I havefound I remember it's been a few
years ago now, there was a, agentleman that I was coaching
who was, had been identified asa high potential early in his
career.
You know, just knock it out ofthe park.
Technical talent you know,really a phenomenal guy.
But, as he went to that kind of,it was, he was in his first
(17:03):
senior director job, the peoplethat worked with him and that
collaborated with him laterally,honestly, just couldn't stand
him.
He was a bully.
He was difficult.
He was you know, selfish.
And, you know, I got called into help fix this situation,
right?
It wasn't just this person, butit was whole dynamic.
(17:24):
And one of the things that gotrevealed through the, you know,
typical things that you and Ido, you know, interview
everybody is, is that honestly,one, this person wasn't really
getting direct feedback.
But the other piece of it was,is that it was really clear
through his, even his statedwords that he really thought
everybody around him was therein service of his success.
(17:45):
That he had gotten the messagethat he's, you know, top banana,
he's gotten this, you know, newjob, you know, and he really
thought that that's what theorganization was basically
telling him is that we'reinvesting in you.
So you go be successful and allthese people are here to
essentially serve you and yoursuccess, the light bulbs that
went on for him when he got thefeedback and realized, oh, my
(18:09):
goodness.
don't succeed if they don't feelsuccessful.
I don't succeed if they don'tfeel like they're getting.
It sounds so simple, but youknow, Terry, I'm sure you do
this in your own coaching too.
It's amazing how many seniorpeople have gotten to those
levels without the message oftheir own behavior and how it
undermines other people isdetrimental to their success and
(18:32):
to other success.
So this mindset about people,what are people there for?
There were here to succeedtogether, and that mindset about
people is really crucial.
And so if you're going todevelop great people managers,
you have to help them work onthat mindset.
And that growth mindset aboutpeople is really, really
crucial.
And then the 3rd piece I find isreally working on the 4 or 5 key
(18:54):
skills that every people managerhas to be good at communication,
leading from a place of purpose,providing effective feedback.
Providing career developmentcoaching and guidance, you know,
these kinds of things thatthey're actually, again, I've
been so surprised at how manyleaders get the mandate to do
these things, but they've neverbeen taught how to do these
(19:16):
things.
And there is actually a skill.
There are skills that you canlearn in addition to all the
tools that HR provides orwhatever, the actual humans on
the front line of thoseconversations need help in
learning how to have these kindsof conversations.
It's kind of, you know, Ongoingcareer development planning,
this kind of, so really developdeveloping those crucial
capabilities.
(19:37):
Those are the things that Ithink about when I think about
developing great people leaders.
Teri Schmidt (19:41):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Those, those are great.
And you know, I, a couple ofthings that came up as you were
talking about that example withthe senior VP, I talk a lot
about as leaders go through thedifferent levels of leadership,
unless they can acknowledge thatin a sense, they have to shift
their identity.
You know, it's, it's no longerabout.
(20:02):
My success is the ultimate goaland that's how I define myself
and my worth.
But it now is about like, you'vetalked about unlocking that
potential and other people, andthat's.
A new identity.
And so just being able toacknowledge that shift of you
have to let go and almost kindof grieve the loss of that first
(20:23):
identity so that you cantransition into that leader
identity so that you can helpyour organization to thrive.
Cheryl Fields Tyler (20:31):
Yeah, I agree with that so much, Terry.
Well said I, I can, I, my teamhas heard this story many times,
but I literally remember the daywhen I realized that I was in a
new manager job.
I had a small team and Iliterally remember the day when
I realized, oh, my goodness.
Like, if I don't invest in themand their success, I Like, I,
(20:54):
I'm going to be lost here.
Right.
And I know that sounds really,maybe I was an exceptionally
naive young leader, but thetruth is, is like, it had not
occurred to me.
I just really didn't realizethat that was my job.
And that shift in perspectivereally, Made a lot of things
possible for me, but it alsomade a lot of things possible
(21:15):
for my team that otherwise wouldnot have been in our collective
efforts.
And yeah, I, I would, I agreewith you so much.
And I do think that particularlyin this kind of world where
individual achievement is sorewarded, there is some grieving
sometimes that goes along withrealizing that, wow you know, as
a leader, it really is about mycapacity to get things done with
and through others.
(21:36):
so much.
Teri Schmidt (21:37):
Yeah, definitely.
And then your, your point aboutthe skills like communication
that are so critical.
I think I just did some writingabout this as well, but I think
sometimes because they're not asflashy sometimes they aren't
same.
As impactful as they are and aspowerful and as necessary as
they are.
So I love that your researchhighlighted that just hope that,
(22:03):
you know, leaders take that andfocus in on, okay, if I don't
feel that communication muscleis up to where it needs to be,
or I don't feel we're supportingour leaders in our organization
to do communication in a waythat it needs to be done, that
they will take that on as apriority.
Cheryl Fields Tyler (22:19):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Teri Schmidt (22:23):
Well, getting to, you know, the, the people
leaders who are listening tothis, you talk about how people
leadership is a practice that wecontinue to hone over time.
So it's not just about going toyour new leader training
program, you know, the firstweek of you being in a people
leadership role how does thismindset change the way in which
leaders should focus theirdevelopment and in which
(22:45):
organizations Help support thatdevelopment.
Cheryl Fields Tyler (22:49):
Yeah, yeah, you know there's kind of 3
things that I find reallydistinguish organizations that
are working to develop leadersin this way.
One is they make time forpeople, managers and leaders to
talk to each other aboutmanaging and leading people.
Seems so obvious, but you know,I can't.
(23:10):
You know, just people reallyvalue learning from peers that
are going through somethingsimilar.
And a few years ago, we had a anorganization was going through a
fairly significanttransformation, business and
culture transformation.
And we had these leader triosand quartets that we put
together to talk about.
(23:30):
The role that they were playingin people's lives and work in
that.
And out of everything that wedid, all the interventions, all
the support, the thing that theyvalued most was being able to
talk to other leaders about whatit was and other people managers
about what was going on for themin, in that context.
So that kind of peer to peersupport.
And I would say.
(23:50):
If you're a people manager orleader listening to this and you
don't have that, find it in yourlife.
You probably have people in yourorganization that would love to
meet once a month for coffee goto lunch together and just talk
about what it means to be apeople leader and people manager
and how you can hone thoseskills.
That's one.
The second one is, is reallyaround supporting.
(24:10):
It's what we just referred to,but really looking at what are
those kind of You know, somepeople call them the moments
that matter, crucial moments inthe, in the journey of people
management and really buildingskills around those moments.
Feedback is one of the classicones, right?
People say, you know, there's arare employee survey that
doesn't say people want morefeedback, right?
(24:32):
They want more feedback.
And yet, and when you talk topeople managers, it's one of the
things that people feel theleast equipped to do
effectively, right?
And so really.
Making a whole art and sciencearound how do you deliver
effective feedback?
One of the things that we'veseen in organizations is being
(24:52):
able to put things in bite sizedpieces so that people can, you
know, maybe there's that short,you know, 1 hour, you know, kind
of in person learning, but thenhaving bite sized pieces with.
You know, videos and other kindsof, you know, aids that really
give people the support to beable to be really good at that.
(25:13):
Communication is another one.
There's actual tools that peoplecan be equipped with to help
them realize what are the keymessages I need to be supporting
Teri Schmidt (25:22):
Mm-Hmm.
Cheryl Fields Tyler (25:22):
I mean, again, these things can be
taught and they can be learned.
And so really focusing in onthose few things is really,
really crucial.
And then the last thing I wouldsay is honestly you know, I.
I have to say, I'm not a huge,huge fan of like the kind of
wrote three sixties, but I thinkthere's real power in leaders
and managers asking selectivelyfor feedback from their people
(25:46):
around how they're managing andwhat they could do better and
really listening to your peoplefrom a place of authenticity and
you know, In some cases,vulnerability to know what it is
that they need.
Again, I'll, I'll give anotherexample.
One of the things that Irecently had the experience in,
in.
Working with a senior executiveteam and the leader of that team
(26:08):
and realizing that what peoplewere really looking for from him
was less direction, not more.
And, you know, it, he was notaware that people felt like he
was.
Not exactly micromanaging, buthe has so much wealth to give
and it and they just felt likethey were overwhelmed with his
(26:29):
Advice and, you know, andsometimes there is a less is
more in, in these things, andyou've got to give people space
to kind of learn on their own.
And so coaching is sometimesabout what you do when you're on
the sidelines, not doinganything and not saying
anything.
So, and that feedback was soimportant, but I don't think
(26:50):
that he would have gotten thatmessage unless people had come
together and said, you know,we'd really like it.
Less of you in these ways.
Teri Schmidt (26:56):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that, that's, that's fascinating
and I can imagine how helpfulthat was for that leader to, you
know, almost have that mirrorput up for him.
And just to kind of double downon a couple of things you said
about, you know, if you.
Are a leader and you don't havesomeone to talk to.
You don't have a peer to talkabout what you're experiencing.
(27:18):
We've actually seen that need aswell.
So we're launching a groupcoaching program called
leadership thought partners forjust that.
where people come together andtackle real life challenges.
And then on the feedback pieceI've seen that throughout my
career, you know, we did someperformance consulting and kind
of root cause analysis about.
Why teams weren't reaching theirpotential.
(27:40):
And it was almost alwaysexpectations and feedback.
That was the primary cause ofthe challenge.
So people like to send people totraining all the time to fix
everything, but sometimes it'sjust as simple as getting really
good at that feedback and, andsaying the expectations.
So.
Cheryl Fields Tyler (27:58):
absolutely.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Teri Schmidt (28:00):
those three.
You know, part of the, thechallenge with particularly like
mid level managers is that theirrole can be so complex, you
know, between managing up,managing down.
How do you think, or how doesthe research show, you know, it
might be value to simplify thatrole a little bit so that they
(28:21):
can more effectively serve inthat role of unleashing the
potential of their people?
Cheryl Fields Tyler (28:27):
Yeah.
I mean, I, gosh, I'd love to doresearch on this topic.
Our research doesn't speak tothe role of mid level managers,
you know, per se, in the waythat you're, you're asking the
question, Terry, but I will saybased on.
My own, you know, consultingpractice, what I've seen over
the course of many years, Ithink that it really goes to a
kind of a couple of things.
(28:49):
1 is for organizations torealize that the work of mid
level managers of thestakeholder management up and
down and across.
And you have to give people timeto do that work that that is
actually work.
And, you know, it's interesting,like I've worked with some of
the folks that do reallyinteresting network mapping and
(29:12):
organizations and things likethat.
And people are always reallyastounded and find that so
valuable.
But yet.
They don't realize those peoplethat are crucial in those
networks.
If you talk to them a lot oftimes they're feeling
overwhelmed because theorganization has not named the
valuable stakeholder managementconnecting.
(29:33):
Activity that they do as work.
And so making sure that thosemid level managers actually have
the time and the accountabilityto do that connective tissue
building in the organization,that connective context
building, that connective, allof that is.
Super important.
I think that's really crucial.
I think the second thing that Iwould say is making sure that
(29:55):
the people that are in thoseparts of the organization have
ample opportunity to speak witheach other because again, that
it's back to what we just talkedabout.
It's, it's a very, that midlevel management role.
So many you know employeesurveys will show that that's
the part of the organizationthat is there.
Suffering the most or has theweakest engagement, right?
(30:16):
Because they are, they aregetting it from every direction.
And so really having a concertedeffort to support and connect
that layer of the organizationis, is really crucial.
And then the last thing I wouldsay is I know that this may
sound you know like just atruism is make sure that they
have good managers because.
(30:37):
A lot of times those people arenot necessarily being supported
by their managers, by theirleaders.
They're not getting support.
They're not getting recognition.
They're not getting seen.
They're not getting, you knowappropriate levels of coaching
and feedback themselves.
So, you know, making sure thatyour mid level managers really
do get the support of the peopleabove them is, is really
(31:01):
important.
Teri Schmidt (31:02):
Yeah, that's critically important.
And I love what you said aboutthem feeling seen.
I think even just acknowledgingthat they are kind of that node
in the network that has all thebranches coming out all
different directions andacknowledge of how challenging
that can be and how challengingtheir role can be.
I think even that would go.
A long way.
Cheryl Fields Tyler (31:23):
Yes.
Yes.
Yeah.
Teri Schmidt (31:25):
Well, speaking of that, you know, I know mid level
managers are, are one of thegroups that maybe tend to
struggle a bit with wellbeingbecause of all the pressures put
on them.
And I was again, fascinated bythe report in that your
definition of wellbeing and, andwhat people were seeking with
regards to wellbeing might be alittle different than some
(31:48):
people understand it's not justabout.
you know, monthly programs thatare put on, for example.
So I'd love to hear from youagain about what your research
discovered about how we couldsupport the well being of people
managers.
Cheryl Fields Tyler (32:05):
Yeah, thank you, Terry.
You know, the 1st thing I'll sayto reference what you just
mentioned about the definitionof well, being, I mean, for
sure, you know, things like, youknow, programs that work in the
workplace around.
Well, being that those areimportant and valuable, but what
we really see in our researchthat people are looking for when
they're saying we want anorganization that supports, you
know, Well, being is therereally asking for you know, pay
(32:29):
equity they're looking foreffective and affordable, you
know, health insurance, they'relooking for flexibility you
know, 70 percent put flexibilityright at the top of the list of
what they're looking for.
They're looking for you know,learning.
Career development, so it's,it's actually not, I mean, yoga.
(32:50):
Okay.
Meditation.
Okay.
But what they're really lookingfor is I want an organization
that is good for me and myfamily.
I want to work for work that dowork in the world and work for
an employer that sees my lifeand my well being holistically.
And is not competing with mywellbeing.
I should not have to have yearsago, somebody told me, I feel
(33:13):
like every time I go to work,somebody else punches a hole in
my bucket, you know, that it'sdraining my energy.
It's, you know, no work shouldnot be like that.
It should be a
Teri Schmidt (33:22):
Mm hmm.
Cheryl Fields Tyler (33:22):
of a source of a good.
Healthy well being life, not adetriment to it.
And that's not to say that wearen't willing to work hard.
In fact, I think we are willingto work hard.
And, you know, people show thatall the time.
But what they're looking for isthe capacity to work hard while
also doing that not at theexpense of the rest of their
(33:42):
lives.
And so I think that that's areally crucial piece.
And I think, you know, managersboth are sort of in a very Thank
you.
Tender place in terms of meetingthat investment in their well
being because of all the thingsthat we've talked about.
And of course, they're crucialto ensuring the well being of
the people on their team.
So, you know, it's a I think theorganization gets.
(34:05):
Double and triple the benefit ifyou invest in managers well
being because they're much morelikely to be able to invest in
the well being of others andagain, well being in the way
that we're talking about peersupport making sure that there's
adequate recognition that peopleget the kind of support from
their leaders and that thesehealth and hygiene pieces are
really a part of every manager'sexperience where they know that
(34:28):
they are not going to beundermined by A lack of
flexibility, a lack of, you knowwork processes that keep them
having to work longer than theyshould, you know, the stuff that
really is the day job of, ofthese managers needs to be in
place for them to feel like wellbeing is being prioritized.
Teri Schmidt (34:48):
Yeah, and when you were talking, it came to me that
almost makes it simpler in away, in that well being isn't
this extra pillar or this extrathing that you have to put on
top of everything else that youhave want to do as a good
leader.
It, it really is integrated withthat.
It's about caring, caring forthe people.
Cheryl Fields Tyler (35:05):
So true.
Teri Schmidt (35:07):
you say, you know, the high expectations and, and
the deep trust.
I think when you have thosenailed down and the practices
underneath them well being does,In a sense, take care of itself,
or at least it is better offthan if you didn't do all those
things, but had a monthly yogaclass, for example.
(35:27):
Yeah.
Cheryl Fields Tyler (35:28):
No, thank you, Terry.
I think that's absolutely true.
And thank you for bringing, youknow, for us, we use this
framework.
It's simple framework, but it'sso profound that organizations
and people and teams, leaders asindividuals, we all thrive.
In organizations andenvironments that have deep
trust and high expectations.
And when those two worktogether, they really are a
(35:50):
virtuous cycle for betteroutcomes for people and for
business.
So that combination really makesthe difference and you know,
working on both of them togetheris really what makes
organizations sustainably, youknow, competitive and even
outpace their competitors.
Teri Schmidt (36:08):
Yeah.
I love it that it's simple, butdefinitely not easy.
There's a, there's a lot ofunder that, but it's easy to
remember and a good framework tohelp make that happen.
Organizational and team andleadership decisions.
So one more question for youthat we asked most of our
guests, and I'd love to hearbecause this is the strong
(36:29):
leaders serve podcast.
What strong leaders serve meansto you.
Cheryl Fields Tyler (36:35):
One is I love that phrase and I love the
name of the podcast.
Terry, you know, I really dofeel I mean, what that means to
me is, is that strength comes inthe unleashing of.
Others talent potential and wellbeing and happiness, honestly
joy is the word that I like bestactually.
(36:55):
Because and so for me, whatstrong leader serve means is
it's about being in service ofothers well being, joy,
fulfillment, and making that.
Capacity and ability to do thatas a leader, a part of my
practice, getting better atthat, learning how to do that.
Don't assume that I know how todo that for others.
(37:17):
I, I need to learn how to dothat and do it effectively for a
lot of different kinds of peopletoo, because it's not just a one
size fits all.
You know, it, it looks differentin different contexts.
So that's what strong leaderserve means to me.
Teri Schmidt (37:29):
Excellent.
Well said.
And yeah, I think it's anotherone of those things that is
simple in that it's only threewords, but definitely not easy
and requires ongoingdevelopment.
Cheryl Fields Tyler (37:41):
Yes, yes,
Teri Schmidt (37:42):
Well, thank you so much, Cheryl, for coming on, for
sharing your wisdom and yourexperiences.
If people want to learn moreabout you or Blue Beyond,
where's the best place for themto go?
Cheryl Fields Tyler (37:54):
yes, my email is Cheryl at
BlueBeyondConsulting.
com, our website,BlueBeyondConsulting.
com, and you can find me onLinkedIn too, Cheryl Fields
Tyler.
So thank you, Terry.
I really admire the work you'redoing and your podcast, and it's
really an honor to be on.
Thank you so much.
Thank you again to Cheryl forsharing her incredible insights
(38:15):
on people.
Leadership with us today onstrong leader serve.
As we wrap up.
I'd like to leave you with threeactionable tips to enhance your
leadership journey.
Number one invest in mid-levelmanagers.
Ensure your middle managers havethe time resources and
recognition.
They need to succeed.
Their wellbeing andeffectiveness are crucial to the
(38:38):
entire organization's health.
Number two, embrace a broaderdefinition of wellbeing.
Just like we've talked about inthe past.
And gala research shows.
Wellbeing has several differentdimensions.
Go beyond traditional wellbeingprograms, focus on pay equity,
(38:58):
health, insurance, flexibility.
And career development to createa genuinely supportive work
environment.
Number three.
Strive to build deep trust andset high expectations within
your teams.
This virtuous cycle will drivebetter outcomes for both your
people and your business.
And until next time lead withthis quote from Cheryl in mind.
(39:22):
Strong leader serve by focusingon enhancing others, potential
talent wellbeing.
And joy.
Welcome back again to strongleaders serve.
Supporting people, leaders.
Isn't just a nice to have.
It's an economic imperative forthriving teams and successful
organizations.
And on this episode.
I'm excited to be chatting withCheryl Fields, Tyler founder of
blue, beyond consulting.
About their groundbreakingresearch report.
(00:21):
Titled winning on the peopleside of business.
In our conversation, we talkabout how to balance high
expectations with deep trust.
How to support your mid-levelmanagers.
And how to refine wellbeingbeyond just surface level perks.
A little bit more about Cheryl.
Her focus for over 30 years hasbeen building organizations
(00:42):
where both the business and thepeople thrive.
Her distinct, innovative andpractical perspective has been
featured in various media,including CNBC, BBC.
Fast company and forums.
In 2020, she received the, forall leader award from the great
place to work Institute.
(01:02):
And under her leadership bluebeyond has repeatedly been
recognized as one of the best,small and medium workplaces by
fortune.
And as an Inc 5,000 company.
We had a great conversation andI'm confident that you will walk
away today from this episodewith.
At least.
One learning that you can applyto your leadership.
(01:25):
So let's get to it.
I'm Terry Schmidt.
Executive and leadership coachat strong leader serve.
Where we partner withcompassionate driven leaders and
their teams to transformpotential into performance.
And this is the strong leaderserve podcast.
Teri Schmidt (01:58):
Well, hello, Cheryl.
Welcome to the strong leaderserve podcast.
Cheryl Fields Tyler (02:02):
Oh, I'm glad to be here.
Thank you, Terry.
Teri Schmidt (02:03):
I am really looking forward to this
conversation.
I love what BlueBeyondConsulting does your emphasis on
creating the deep trust and thehigh expectations.
It speaks directly to what we'redoing at StrongLeaderServe as
well.
So I'm excited to dig into thenew research report that you
just released, Winning on thePeople Side of Business.
(02:26):
But before we get into that, I'dlove to To hear a little bit
more about your story and kindof the experiences that got you
to where you are today leadingthis wonderful organization.
Cheryl Fields Tyler (02:37):
Oh, thanks, Terry.
Yeah, you know, it'sinteresting.
Like so many of us, right?
I never aspired to be amanagement consultant.
I never really thought I wouldbe a business owner, but when I
look back over the course of mylife, I can see.
You know, so many things kind ofled me in this direction.
I actually my undergraduate andgraduate degrees were not in
business or anything associatedwith.
(02:58):
And it was really coming out ofmy PhD program.
I didn't complete the doctorate,but I finished my coursework and
realized I really wanted to be.
Understand what was going on inthe world of business and ended
up actually spending almost 10years in the American
Electronics Association, themain trade association for high
tech companies, best MBA programever because every single day I
(03:18):
got to work with Senior businessleaders, really from companies
across the country, across theglobe, in many cases on the
things that really kept them upat night and I gravitated over
the course of the first coupleof years of my career there to
the people side of business andended up doing policy work,
research work and eventuallystarted consulting.
Business actually under theauspices of the American
(03:41):
Electronics Association reallyfocused on how to apply the
research that at that time wastalked about the high
performance workplace whenorganizations were taking out
middle management layers and allthat good stuff.
Anyway, I'm dating myself here.
This is ancient history now, butthe reason why I give that
context is because I came intoconsulting really from the point
of view of Really thinking aboutwhat it meant for business
(04:04):
leaders to be thinking every dayabout how to maximize the
outcomes for their organizationsand hearing them talk about how
important the people side ofbusiness was to that equation.
And of course, that's onlybecome more important over time
as knowledge work just reallybecomes, you know, kind of a
coin of the realm for almostevery kind of organization,
every kind of business.
(04:26):
Profit making and non profitmaking, by the way in, in the
modern economy.
And when I started Blue Beyond,it was really out of a passion
for kind of two or three thingsthat kind of came together.
One is, is that I was doing, youknow, had been doing research
and consulting on the peopleside of business.
That point for, you know, closeto, I don't know, 15 years and
realized that, you know, therewere a lot of things I was
(04:47):
telling organizations that weregood for people and for business
that I, I really felt like Iwant a chance to see if I could
build an organization myselflike this, right.
Could that, could that reallywork?
And so, you know, I reallywanted to see if that would
work.
A second piece was, is thathonestly, I had found that I,
was not at home in many otherorganizations.
I had had a couple of thingsthat I thought were going to be
(05:08):
great fits and ended up notbeing great fits for me.
And I was kind of feeling like,gosh, where do I belong?
And do I, you know, createsomething that feels like it's,
you know, a place that I wouldreally enjoy working and
hopefully others would enjoythat too.
Or do I keep looking forsomewhere else?
And for me, that kind of kind ofbuilding My own home, so to
speak, was, was reallyattractive.
(05:29):
And then the third piece I won'tlie.
I was a working parent and stillam a parent, still am working.
My kids are now adults, but atthat point, my kids were in
older elementary school agekids.
I have twins and you know, Ijust felt like I really wanted
a.
Chance to have, I always talkedabout it as work life
integration, not necessarilybalance.
Cause if you're a reallymotivated and ambitious person
(05:52):
balance necessarily isn't thegoal.
It's really, but it's like, howcan you get kind of an, an A in
every aspect of your life andnot feel like you have to do all
of the trade offs andcompromises.
basis that working for somebodyelse required.
So anyway, that's really whatcaused me to start blue beyond
consulting.
That was 18 years ago.
You know, I'm really proud ofour track record.
(06:14):
We've been certified as a greatplace to work for many, many
years.
We've been on the fortune greatplace to work list for medium
and small sized companies.
We've been on the ink 4, 000 or5, 000 for four years.
So that kind of vision ofbuilding an organization where
both the people and the businessthrive.
I can't say that it's been aseamless, you know, kind of
journey all the way up and tothe right.
(06:35):
There's definitely been some upsand downs as there is in every
aspect of our life, but it'sbeen an incredibly rewarding
journey, honestly, as rewardingas.
Anything else in my life otherthan being a spouse to my to my
husband and, and, you know, aparent to my kids.
It's just been a really, reallyrewarding journey.
Teri Schmidt (06:55):
Yeah.
And congratulations to you on,on making that leap and, you
know, reading kind of thewriting on the wall that, you
know, it was the right time todo it.
Given that you had this dream ofcreating a business with these
values you believed in andreally couldn't find, The right
place anywhere else.
(07:15):
But that that still is a hugeleap and then to have it
successfully running for so longand all the awards and accolades
you mentioned.
That is a huge accomplishment.
So congratulations on that.
Cheryl Fields Tyler (07:26):
Thank you.
Thank you.
Teri Schmidt (07:28):
A lot of our listeners are kind of that mid
level manager.
So I thought we could spend sometime digging into the research
that you just did in a way thatreally supports them because you
talked about the importance ofsupporting and developing people
managers and, you know, talkingabout how they're so critical to
(07:50):
getting the potential out ofpeople and then the potential.
Out of the organization.
What makes it so important basedon what you saw in the research
and what you've seen workingwith clients over the 18 years
you've been in the business?
Cheryl Fields Tyler (08:05):
Yeah.
Thank you, Terry.
I really appreciate the work youdo.
And yeah, I, you know, look, I,I come from, it sounds maybe a
little bit corny, but I reallyfeel like leading people is.
Thanks.
Really kind of a sacred calling.
It really is.
And I feel that in the moderneconomy which is all about
(08:26):
knowledge and collaboration andbringing people together around
common purpose and common valuesand common goals, and then
achieving things together thatreally create a whole greater
than the sum of the parts.
That work of leading andmanaging people really is not
just a really sacred calling,but it's also an economically
(08:47):
essential calling in ourorganizations that there's just
virtually nothing in our.
World that generates value thatdoesn't require us to work
together across teams and withinteams and that people
leadership, bringing teamstogether, bringing people
together is, is really crucialto every aspect of a value
(09:08):
creation.
What we know now about what ittakes to bring people together
to set the conditions.
For human beings to worktogether effectively is so much
more than we knew 20 years ago.
And sort of my point that I makein the findings of or the
recommendations of our researchreport is really that we are so
(09:31):
really missing out.
If we don't create a, an actualpractice of what it means to
bring the best out of others asin our companies, that we really
need to create an environmentwhere we are honing those
skills.
We're elevating those skills.
We're creating the capabilitiesand the conditions where people
who are gifted at.
(09:52):
Really bringing out the best inothers and bringing people
together around common goals andobjectives that they really have
a chance to hone that craft andto really be excellent as people
managers in a people leaders ina way that's going to serve
their organizations as well asthe purpose of those
organizations in the, in thegreater sense, as it turns out
(10:12):
are.
Folks that responded to oursurvey, it's demographically
representative survey across theU.
S.
knowledge workers, people,managers, H.
R.
leaders and business leadersagree with what I'm saying,
using different words, but agreewith what I'm saying, people,
managers and.
Leaders are more pivotal thanever seen as more pivotal than
(10:34):
ever and across the board in allof those demographic groups it
in terms of what it's going totake for their organizations to
thrive from a business point ofview, we did the same survey 3
years ago and those peoplemanager findings are even
stronger now than they were 3years ago that people managers
(10:54):
are more pivotal than ever tomake organizations thrive now
and in the future.
Teri Schmidt (11:00):
Yeah, that's great to hear.
And I think you mentioned in thewebinar, as you were reviewing
the report that at first youthought it might be just the
people that were attracted toYou know, be part of the
research that you wereconducting would lean a little
bit more toward the people sideof business.
But you found by expanding yourdata set that this really is a
(11:21):
trend across.
Why then?
Because I've talked to severalleaders who are in situations
where People leadership is notsupported or it doesn't seem to
be a priority for the executivesor senior leaders in the
organization.
What is it about supportingpeople leaders that makes it so
challenging?
Cheryl Fields Tyler (11:42):
Well, it might sound kind of trite, but
it's, it's people.
People are complex.
They're very, they're diverse.
They have, you know, they bringwho they are in all of their
lives to the workplace.
And you know, it's it's not aneasy thing to be the leader of
people.
It really is not an easy thing.
That's why I think it deservesto be Real work, real honing,
(12:07):
that practice of how do we leadand manage people more
effectively?
You know, the fact of the matteris, is that, you know human
beings have a lot of differentkinds of motivations.
We bring a lot of differenttypes of styles.
We bring a lot of differentkinds of communication needs and
expectations to the workplace.
And those expectations haveactually gotten even Greater
(12:30):
over the last few years.
I mean, that's one of the otherthings that our study shows.
Terry is, is that people arecoming to the workplace with a
lot of expectations of theirworkplace.
They're expecting anorganization that cares about
their well being.
They're expecting anorganization that will walk the
talk on.
It's culture aspiration.
(12:50):
They're expecting to work forbusinesses that are a force for
good in the world.
And, you know, it ischallenging, I think, to look at
that situation and say, wow, howdo we bring people together in
that kind of scenario so thatpeople can really be their best
together and achieve outcomestogether?
But the truth is, is that again,as I said earlier, You know,
(13:11):
value creation essentiallydepends on that.
And when we look at the data ofyou know, this, of course you
know, Google did this data manyyears ago.
Lots of other companies haverepeated this kind of data
organizations that invest increating great people, managers
and great people, leaders.
Tend to have greater outcomes interms of their their team
(13:33):
performance.
They tend to you know, look moreinnovative, drive innovation.
People tend to feel happierbeing there.
There's even some data in therecent years about these kinds
of organizations actuallydeliver at, higher levels of
business outcomes, whether it bestock performance or other kinds
of measures of customer netpromoter score, these kinds of
(13:55):
things, we get everything weachieve done through people in
the modern business environment.
And so leading people managingpeople is really crucial to all
of that value creation.
Teri Schmidt (14:07):
Yeah, definitely agree.
You know, it's strong leaderserve.
Our definition of leadership iscourageously using your talents
to make a way for others tocourageously use theirs.
So very much in line.
Thank you with unlocking thepotential for leadership.
And just one side note aboutsomething you said about, you
know, people coming into theworkplace with more
(14:29):
expectations.
One of the things I found reallyinteresting in your research is
that that isn't just Gen Z.
Cheryl Fields Tyler (14:35):
No, that's really true.
I mean, you know, there's astereotype that it's the Gen Z
folks that have actually driventhis expectation around
wellbeing, this expectationaround, you know values around
diversity, equity, inclusion,all of those different kinds of
things.
And it's really not true.
There are some generationaldifferences, but honestly, we're
much more aligned than we aredifferent in terms of the kinds
(14:56):
of things that we're looking forfrom our workplace, particularly
around issues about wellbeing,around career development,
around learning.
Around the capacity to grow ourour impact at work on these
types of really crucial issues.
The generations are really veryaligned.
And it's not just Gen Zbasically saying, invest in me,
(15:16):
even clear up to the babyboomers are still saying, I want
to be learning.
I want to be growing.
I want to be achieving at workand growing my career at work
and, and, you know, looking totheir managers and their leaders
for avenues to do so.
Teri Schmidt (15:31):
That, that was, that was fascinating because I
think, you know, you hear a lotthat it is just Gen Z, but to
hear that it is all generationsbeing more aligned around those
expectations.
Which could perhaps put a littlebit more pressure or raise the
importance again, of that peopleleader development.
So what are some of the researchbacked ideas that you have for
(15:54):
doing that development in abetter way?
Cheryl Fields Tyler (15:57):
Yeah, I think I would put it in kind of
three different buckets.
I mean, one is, is that wereally do now have a lot of
science around what it takes tocreate the conditions for growth
mindset for peak performance.
And so the first thing is, makesure that your people leader
development programs areactually grounded in that
(16:17):
neurobiology, the neuroscienceof what it takes for adults to
learn and for adults to createthe context for others to learn.
That's one piece.
A second piece.
And we, we do a lot of this kindof work in our own work with
leader and manager developmentprograms is really help people
examine their own mindset aboutpeople.
I know that sounds kind of youknow, Soft.
(16:40):
But the truth is, is that, Imean, you, you kind of even
mentioned this earlier.
Terry, one of the things I havefound I remember it's been a few
years ago now, there was a, agentleman that I was coaching
who was, had been identified asa high potential early in his
career.
You know, just knock it out ofthe park.
Technical talent you know,really a phenomenal guy.
But, as he went to that kind of,it was, he was in his first
(17:03):
senior director job, the peoplethat worked with him and that
collaborated with him laterally,honestly, just couldn't stand
him.
He was a bully.
He was difficult.
He was you know, selfish.
And, you know, I got called into help fix this situation,
right?
It wasn't just this person, butit was whole dynamic.
(17:24):
And one of the things that gotrevealed through the, you know,
typical things that you and Ido, you know, interview
everybody is, is that honestly,one, this person wasn't really
getting direct feedback.
But the other piece of it was,is that it was really clear
through his, even his statedwords that he really thought
everybody around him was therein service of his success.
(17:45):
That he had gotten the messagethat he's, you know, top banana,
he's gotten this, you know, newjob, you know, and he really
thought that that's what theorganization was basically
telling him is that we'reinvesting in you.
So you go be successful and allthese people are here to
essentially serve you and yoursuccess, the light bulbs that
went on for him when he got thefeedback and realized, oh, my
(18:09):
goodness.
don't succeed if they don't feelsuccessful.
I don't succeed if they don'tfeel like they're getting.
It sounds so simple, but youknow, Terry, I'm sure you do
this in your own coaching too.
It's amazing how many seniorpeople have gotten to those
levels without the message oftheir own behavior and how it
undermines other people isdetrimental to their success and
(18:32):
to other success.
So this mindset about people,what are people there for?
There were here to succeedtogether, and that mindset about
people is really crucial.
And so if you're going todevelop great people managers,
you have to help them work onthat mindset.
And that growth mindset aboutpeople is really, really
crucial.
And then the 3rd piece I find isreally working on the 4 or 5 key
(18:54):
skills that every people managerhas to be good at communication,
leading from a place of purpose,providing effective feedback.
Providing career developmentcoaching and guidance, you know,
these kinds of things thatthey're actually, again, I've
been so surprised at how manyleaders get the mandate to do
these things, but they've neverbeen taught how to do these
(19:16):
things.
And there is actually a skill.
There are skills that you canlearn in addition to all the
tools that HR provides orwhatever, the actual humans on
the front line of thoseconversations need help in
learning how to have these kindsof conversations.
It's kind of, you know, Ongoingcareer development planning,
this kind of, so really developdeveloping those crucial
capabilities.
(19:37):
Those are the things that Ithink about when I think about
developing great people leaders.
Teri Schmidt (19:41):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Those, those are great.
And you know, I, a couple ofthings that came up as you were
talking about that example withthe senior VP, I talk a lot
about as leaders go through thedifferent levels of leadership,
unless they can acknowledge thatin a sense, they have to shift
their identity.
You know, it's, it's no longerabout.
(20:02):
My success is the ultimate goaland that's how I define myself
and my worth.
But it now is about like, you'vetalked about unlocking that
potential and other people, andthat's.
A new identity.
And so just being able toacknowledge that shift of you
have to let go and almost kindof grieve the loss of that first
(20:23):
identity so that you cantransition into that leader
identity so that you can helpyour organization to thrive.
Cheryl Fields Tyler (20:31):
Yeah, I agree with that so much, Terry.
Well said I, I can, I, my teamhas heard this story many times,
but I literally remember the daywhen I realized that I was in a
new manager job.
I had a small team and Iliterally remember the day when
I realized, oh, my goodness.
Like, if I don't invest in themand their success, I Like, I,
(20:54):
I'm going to be lost here.
Right.
And I know that sounds really,maybe I was an exceptionally
naive young leader, but thetruth is, is like, it had not
occurred to me.
I just really didn't realizethat that was my job.
And that shift in perspectivereally, Made a lot of things
possible for me, but it alsomade a lot of things possible
(21:15):
for my team that otherwise wouldnot have been in our collective
efforts.
And yeah, I, I would, I agreewith you so much.
And I do think that particularlyin this kind of world where
individual achievement is sorewarded, there is some grieving
sometimes that goes along withrealizing that, wow you know, as
a leader, it really is about mycapacity to get things done with
and through others.
(21:36):
so much.
Teri Schmidt (21:37):
Yeah, definitely.
And then your, your point aboutthe skills like communication
that are so critical.
I think I just did some writingabout this as well, but I think
sometimes because they're not asflashy sometimes they aren't
same.
As impactful as they are and aspowerful and as necessary as
they are.
So I love that your researchhighlighted that just hope that,
(22:03):
you know, leaders take that andfocus in on, okay, if I don't
feel that communication muscleis up to where it needs to be,
or I don't feel we're supportingour leaders in our organization
to do communication in a waythat it needs to be done, that
they will take that on as apriority.
Cheryl Fields Tyler (22:19):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Teri Schmidt (22:23):
Well, getting to, you know, the, the people
leaders who are listening tothis, you talk about how people
leadership is a practice that wecontinue to hone over time.
So it's not just about going toyour new leader training
program, you know, the firstweek of you being in a people
leadership role how does thismindset change the way in which
leaders should focus theirdevelopment and in which
(22:45):
organizations Help support thatdevelopment.
Cheryl Fields Tyler (22:49):
Yeah, yeah, you know there's kind of 3
things that I find reallydistinguish organizations that
are working to develop leadersin this way.
One is they make time forpeople, managers and leaders to
talk to each other aboutmanaging and leading people.
Seems so obvious, but you know,I can't.
(23:10):
You know, just people reallyvalue learning from peers that
are going through somethingsimilar.
And a few years ago, we had a anorganization was going through a
fairly significanttransformation, business and
culture transformation.
And we had these leader triosand quartets that we put
together to talk about.
(23:30):
The role that they were playingin people's lives and work in
that.
And out of everything that wedid, all the interventions, all
the support, the thing that theyvalued most was being able to
talk to other leaders about whatit was and other people managers
about what was going on for themin, in that context.
So that kind of peer to peersupport.
And I would say.
(23:50):
If you're a people manager orleader listening to this and you
don't have that, find it in yourlife.
You probably have people in yourorganization that would love to
meet once a month for coffee goto lunch together and just talk
about what it means to be apeople leader and people manager
and how you can hone thoseskills.
That's one.
The second one is, is reallyaround supporting.
(24:10):
It's what we just referred to,but really looking at what are
those kind of You know, somepeople call them the moments
that matter, crucial moments inthe, in the journey of people
management and really buildingskills around those moments.
Feedback is one of the classicones, right?
People say, you know, there's arare employee survey that
doesn't say people want morefeedback, right?
(24:32):
They want more feedback.
And yet, and when you talk topeople managers, it's one of the
things that people feel theleast equipped to do
effectively, right?
And so really.
Making a whole art and sciencearound how do you deliver
effective feedback?
One of the things that we'veseen in organizations is being
(24:52):
able to put things in bite sizedpieces so that people can, you
know, maybe there's that short,you know, 1 hour, you know, kind
of in person learning, but thenhaving bite sized pieces with.
You know, videos and other kindsof, you know, aids that really
give people the support to beable to be really good at that.
(25:13):
Communication is another one.
There's actual tools that peoplecan be equipped with to help
them realize what are the keymessages I need to be supporting
Teri Schmidt (25:22):
Mm-Hmm.
Cheryl Fields Tyler (25:22):
I mean, again, these things can be
taught and they can be learned.
And so really focusing in onthose few things is really,
really crucial.
And then the last thing I wouldsay is honestly you know, I.
I have to say, I'm not a huge,huge fan of like the kind of
wrote three sixties, but I thinkthere's real power in leaders
and managers asking selectivelyfor feedback from their people
(25:46):
around how they're managing andwhat they could do better and
really listening to your peoplefrom a place of authenticity and
you know, In some cases,vulnerability to know what it is
that they need.
Again, I'll, I'll give anotherexample.
One of the things that Irecently had the experience in,
in.
Working with a senior executiveteam and the leader of that team
(26:08):
and realizing that what peoplewere really looking for from him
was less direction, not more.
And, you know, it, he was notaware that people felt like he
was.
Not exactly micromanaging, buthe has so much wealth to give
and it and they just felt likethey were overwhelmed with his
(26:29):
Advice and, you know, andsometimes there is a less is
more in, in these things, andyou've got to give people space
to kind of learn on their own.
And so coaching is sometimesabout what you do when you're on
the sidelines, not doinganything and not saying
anything.
So, and that feedback was soimportant, but I don't think
(26:50):
that he would have gotten thatmessage unless people had come
together and said, you know,we'd really like it.
Less of you in these ways.
Teri Schmidt (26:56):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that, that's, that's fascinating
and I can imagine how helpfulthat was for that leader to, you
know, almost have that mirrorput up for him.
And just to kind of double downon a couple of things you said
about, you know, if you.
Are a leader and you don't havesomeone to talk to.
You don't have a peer to talkabout what you're experiencing.
(27:18):
We've actually seen that need aswell.
So we're launching a groupcoaching program called
leadership thought partners forjust that.
where people come together andtackle real life challenges.
And then on the feedback pieceI've seen that throughout my
career, you know, we did someperformance consulting and kind
of root cause analysis about.
Why teams weren't reaching theirpotential.
(27:40):
And it was almost alwaysexpectations and feedback.
That was the primary cause ofthe challenge.
So people like to send people totraining all the time to fix
everything, but sometimes it'sjust as simple as getting really
good at that feedback and, andsaying the expectations.
So.
Cheryl Fields Tyler (27:58):
absolutely.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Teri Schmidt (28:00):
those three.
You know, part of the, thechallenge with particularly like
mid level managers is that theirrole can be so complex, you
know, between managing up,managing down.
How do you think, or how doesthe research show, you know, it
might be value to simplify thatrole a little bit so that they
(28:21):
can more effectively serve inthat role of unleashing the
potential of their people?
Cheryl Fields Tyler (28:27):
Yeah.
I mean, I, gosh, I'd love to doresearch on this topic.
Our research doesn't speak tothe role of mid level managers,
you know, per se, in the waythat you're, you're asking the
question, Terry, but I will saybased on.
My own, you know, consultingpractice, what I've seen over
the course of many years, Ithink that it really goes to a
kind of a couple of things.
(28:49):
1 is for organizations torealize that the work of mid
level managers of thestakeholder management up and
down and across.
And you have to give people timeto do that work that that is
actually work.
And, you know, it's interesting,like I've worked with some of
the folks that do reallyinteresting network mapping and
(29:12):
organizations and things likethat.
And people are always reallyastounded and find that so
valuable.
But yet.
They don't realize those peoplethat are crucial in those
networks.
If you talk to them a lot oftimes they're feeling
overwhelmed because theorganization has not named the
valuable stakeholder managementconnecting.
(29:33):
Activity that they do as work.
And so making sure that thosemid level managers actually have
the time and the accountabilityto do that connective tissue
building in the organization,that connective context
building, that connective, allof that is.
Super important.
I think that's really crucial.
I think the second thing that Iwould say is making sure that
(29:55):
the people that are in thoseparts of the organization have
ample opportunity to speak witheach other because again, that
it's back to what we just talkedabout.
It's, it's a very, that midlevel management role.
So many you know employeesurveys will show that that's
the part of the organizationthat is there.
Suffering the most or has theweakest engagement, right?
(30:16):
Because they are, they aregetting it from every direction.
And so really having a concertedeffort to support and connect
that layer of the organizationis, is really crucial.
And then the last thing I wouldsay is I know that this may
sound you know like just atruism is make sure that they
have good managers because.
(30:37):
A lot of times those people arenot necessarily being supported
by their managers, by theirleaders.
They're not getting support.
They're not getting recognition.
They're not getting seen.
They're not getting, you knowappropriate levels of coaching
and feedback themselves.
So, you know, making sure thatyour mid level managers really
do get the support of the peopleabove them is, is really
(31:01):
important.
Teri Schmidt (31:02):
Yeah, that's critically important.
And I love what you said aboutthem feeling seen.
I think even just acknowledgingthat they are kind of that node
in the network that has all thebranches coming out all
different directions andacknowledge of how challenging
that can be and how challengingtheir role can be.
I think even that would go.
A long way.
Cheryl Fields Tyler (31:23):
Yes.
Yes.
Yeah.
Teri Schmidt (31:25):
Well, speaking of that, you know, I know mid level
managers are, are one of thegroups that maybe tend to
struggle a bit with wellbeingbecause of all the pressures put
on them.
And I was again, fascinated bythe report in that your
definition of wellbeing and, andwhat people were seeking with
regards to wellbeing might be alittle different than some
(31:48):
people understand it's not justabout.
you know, monthly programs thatare put on, for example.
So I'd love to hear from youagain about what your research
discovered about how we couldsupport the well being of people
managers.
Cheryl Fields Tyler (32:05):
Yeah, thank you, Terry.
You know, the 1st thing I'll sayto reference what you just
mentioned about the definitionof well, being, I mean, for
sure, you know, things like, youknow, programs that work in the
workplace around.
Well, being that those areimportant and valuable, but what
we really see in our researchthat people are looking for when
they're saying we want anorganization that supports, you
know, Well, being is therereally asking for you know, pay
(32:29):
equity they're looking foreffective and affordable, you
know, health insurance, they'relooking for flexibility you
know, 70 percent put flexibilityright at the top of the list of
what they're looking for.
They're looking for you know,learning.
Career development, so it's,it's actually not, I mean, yoga.
(32:50):
Okay.
Meditation.
Okay.
But what they're really lookingfor is I want an organization
that is good for me and myfamily.
I want to work for work that dowork in the world and work for
an employer that sees my lifeand my well being holistically.
And is not competing with mywellbeing.
I should not have to have yearsago, somebody told me, I feel
(33:13):
like every time I go to work,somebody else punches a hole in
my bucket, you know, that it'sdraining my energy.
It's, you know, no work shouldnot be like that.
It should be a
Teri Schmidt (33:22):
Mm hmm.
Cheryl Fields Tyler (33:22):
of a source of a good.
Healthy well being life, not adetriment to it.
And that's not to say that wearen't willing to work hard.
In fact, I think we are willingto work hard.
And, you know, people show thatall the time.
But what they're looking for isthe capacity to work hard while
also doing that not at theexpense of the rest of their
(33:42):
lives.
And so I think that that's areally crucial piece.
And I think, you know, managersboth are sort of in a very Thank
you.
Tender place in terms of meetingthat investment in their well
being because of all the thingsthat we've talked about.
And of course, they're crucialto ensuring the well being of
the people on their team.
So, you know, it's a I think theorganization gets.
(34:05):
Double and triple the benefit ifyou invest in managers well
being because they're much morelikely to be able to invest in
the well being of others andagain, well being in the way
that we're talking about peersupport making sure that there's
adequate recognition that peopleget the kind of support from
their leaders and that thesehealth and hygiene pieces are
really a part of every manager'sexperience where they know that
(34:28):
they are not going to beundermined by A lack of
flexibility, a lack of, you knowwork processes that keep them
having to work longer than theyshould, you know, the stuff that
really is the day job of, ofthese managers needs to be in
place for them to feel like wellbeing is being prioritized.
Teri Schmidt (34:48):
Yeah, and when you were talking, it came to me that
almost makes it simpler in away, in that well being isn't
this extra pillar or this extrathing that you have to put on
top of everything else that youhave want to do as a good
leader.
It, it really is integrated withthat.
It's about caring, caring forthe people.
Cheryl Fields Tyler (35:05):
So true.
Teri Schmidt (35:07):
you say, you know, the high expectations and, and
the deep trust.
I think when you have thosenailed down and the practices
underneath them well being does,In a sense, take care of itself,
or at least it is better offthan if you didn't do all those
things, but had a monthly yogaclass, for example.
(35:27):
Yeah.
Cheryl Fields Tyler (35:28):
No, thank you, Terry.
I think that's absolutely true.
And thank you for bringing, youknow, for us, we use this
framework.
It's simple framework, but it'sso profound that organizations
and people and teams, leaders asindividuals, we all thrive.
In organizations andenvironments that have deep
trust and high expectations.
And when those two worktogether, they really are a
(35:50):
virtuous cycle for betteroutcomes for people and for
business.
So that combination really makesthe difference and you know,
working on both of them togetheris really what makes
organizations sustainably, youknow, competitive and even
outpace their competitors.
Teri Schmidt (36:08):
Yeah.
I love it that it's simple, butdefinitely not easy.
There's a, there's a lot ofunder that, but it's easy to
remember and a good framework tohelp make that happen.
Organizational and team andleadership decisions.
So one more question for youthat we asked most of our
guests, and I'd love to hearbecause this is the strong
(36:29):
leaders serve podcast.
What strong leaders serve meansto you.
Cheryl Fields Tyler (36:35):
One is I love that phrase and I love the
name of the podcast.
Terry, you know, I really dofeel I mean, what that means to
me is, is that strength comes inthe unleashing of.
Others talent potential and wellbeing and happiness, honestly
joy is the word that I like bestactually.
(36:55):
Because and so for me, whatstrong leader serve means is
it's about being in service ofothers well being, joy,
fulfillment, and making that.
Capacity and ability to do thatas a leader, a part of my
practice, getting better atthat, learning how to do that.
Don't assume that I know how todo that for others.
(37:17):
I, I need to learn how to dothat and do it effectively for a
lot of different kinds of peopletoo, because it's not just a one
size fits all.
You know, it, it looks differentin different contexts.
So that's what strong leaderserve means to me.
Teri Schmidt (37:29):
Excellent.
Well said.
And yeah, I think it's anotherone of those things that is
simple in that it's only threewords, but definitely not easy
and requires ongoingdevelopment.
Cheryl Fields Tyler (37:41):
Yes, yes,
Teri Schmidt (37:42):
Well, thank you so much, Cheryl, for coming on, for
sharing your wisdom and yourexperiences.
If people want to learn moreabout you or Blue Beyond,
where's the best place for themto go?
Cheryl Fields Tyler (37:54):
yes, my email is Cheryl at
BlueBeyondConsulting.
com, our website,BlueBeyondConsulting.
com, and you can find me onLinkedIn too, Cheryl Fields
Tyler.
So thank you, Terry.
I really admire the work you'redoing and your podcast, and it's
really an honor to be on.
Thank you so much.
Thank you again to Cheryl forsharing her incredible insights
(38:15):
on people.
Leadership with us today onstrong leader serve.
As we wrap up.
I'd like to leave you with threeactionable tips to enhance your
leadership journey.
Number one invest in mid-levelmanagers.
Ensure your middle managers havethe time resources and
recognition.
They need to succeed.
Their wellbeing andeffectiveness are crucial to the
(38:38):
entire organization's health.
Number two, embrace a broaderdefinition of wellbeing.
Just like we've talked about inthe past.
And gala research shows.
Wellbeing has several differentdimensions.
Go beyond traditional wellbeingprograms, focus on pay equity,
(38:58):
health, insurance, flexibility.
And career development to createa genuinely supportive work
environment.
Number three.
Strive to build deep trust andset high expectations within
your teams.
This virtuous cycle will drivebetter outcomes for both your
people and your business.
And until next time lead withthis quote from Cheryl in mind.
(39:22):
Strong leader serve by focusingon enhancing others, potential
talent wellbeing.
And joy.
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