December 4, 2024 • 53 mins
Ever wondered how you can lead with both strength and compassion in an unpredictable world? In one of Teri's favorite conversations of the podcast, she chatted with Patrick Boland, a leadership consultant who’s blending ancient wisdom, scientific research, and the work of contemplative leader, Richard Rohr.
We're breaking down the power of contemplative leadership—perfect for those compassionate, driven leaders feeling the weight of today's complexities.
Key Takeaways:
- Challenge the Narrative of Control: Discover why questioning our inherent desire for control can lead to more effective and meaningful leadership, moving beyond the mechanistic mindset shaped by centuries of Western thought.
- Prioritize Personal Reflection: Learn how inner work and understanding your personal narratives can transform your leadership style, fostering stronger team dynamics and reducing stress.
- Embrace Non-Attachment in Leadership: Understand the concept of non-attachment and how it can help you navigate today’s VUCA world, promoting authenticity, cognitive flexibility, and building trust.
Resources:
- The Contemplative Leader: Uncover the Power of Presence and Connection
- Online Course for The Contemplative Leader
- Masterclass for The Contemplative Leader
- Conexus
Looking for a community of leaders where you can tackle real challenges, share wins, and grow together—without office politics getting in the way? Join Leadership Thought Partners, a coach-led, group-directed space launching in July—early bird pricing ends May 31, 2025 at strongleadersserve.com/ltp!
Connect on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/teri-m-schmidt/
Get 1-on-1 leadership support from Teri here: https://www.strongleadersserve.com/coaching
Set up an intro call with Teri: https://calendly.com/terischmidt/discoverycall
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Teri Schmidt (00:00):
Happy December.
I can't believe I'm saying thatalready, but here we are today.
I'm grateful to be able to sharewith you one of my favorite
conversations that I've hadsince starting this podcast.
If you are feeling frenzied inyour leadership and in your
life, I'm hopeful and confidentthat this conversation with
Patrick Boland will bring you arespite of calm and focus.
(00:24):
Patrick is a leadershipconsultant, executive coach,
psychotherapist, and traineracross several industries and
sectors around the world.
He has worked with organizationsranging from Salesforce to Lego,
Google to Unilever, and Citi tothe Center for Action and
Contemplation.
In 2021, Patrick co authored abook of reflections titled
(00:47):
Everything is Sacred with thecontemplative teacher Richard
Rohr.
And as you'll hear me talk toPatrick about richard Rohr has a
special place in my life, as mydad, when I was a kid, used to
play Father Richard's cassettetapes anytime we were driving
anywhere.
And then my dad and I wouldactually discuss them at our
(01:08):
special breakfasts at PaneraBread.
Father Richard has definitelyshaped my view of the world,
Patrick founded his company,Connexus, in 2013.
It's an organization thatcoaches leaders and their teams
using a combination ofneuroscience, depth psychology,
and embodied experientiallearning.
Patrick lives with his familynear Dublin, Ireland, and spends
(01:31):
much of his free time sailing orplaying football with his sons.
So let's get right into thisrich conversation.
I'm Terry Schmidt.
Executive and leadership coachat strong leaders serve, where
we partner with compassionatedriven leaders and their teams
to transform potential intoperformance.
(01:52):
And this is the strong leadersserve podcast.
Well, welcome to the strongleader serve podcast, Patrick.
(02:13):
I have been looking forward tothis conversation for a long
time.
I think I mentioned that my dadused to pop in father Richard's
tapes when I was about five.
So I feel like he's kind of withus now smiling down from up
above in this conversation.
And I was, so intrigued andexcited to discover you and how
(02:37):
you are bringing fatherRichard's work into the space of
leadership development, becausethat is combining two passions I
have as well.
So thank you again for beinghere today.
Patrick Boland (02:49):
My great pleasure.
Delighted to be with you, Terry.
Teri Schmidt (02:51):
Well, I did give the audience a little bit of an
intro to you but I would love tohear it from you just a little
bit about your journey to whereyou are today and how elements
of that journey led to yourcurrent work and in particular
to your authoring of your book,The Contemplative Leader.
Yeah.
Mm.
(03:12):
Mhm.
Patrick Boland (03:14):
to tell the same story as you know yourself.
I reckon two broad themes in mylife have brought me to where I
am today.
And obviously it started when Iwas quite young.
And these have been the themesof like excellence and
contemplation.
And I didn't even know thatthese were the themes until I
look back as, as an adult in hisforties.
(03:35):
Growing up, I was brought up inan environment, in a family, in
social circles where the pursuitof excellence was, was really
important.
There was a lot of emphasis onhard work, on dedication, on
education.
And within that, there was kindof a spiritual element to that.
So I went to a Jesuit highschool in Dublin, in Ireland
(03:57):
here.
And within that, Thatenvironment, we were very much
afforded the opportunity toreflect on what's important and
how do we want to contribute inthe world.
And there was a great phrasethat was talked about from time
to time from different teachers.
And we even had it up in thelibrary wall.
If, if you want peace, work forjustice.
(04:17):
So there was this idea from avery young age of like, how do
you bring your gifts to theworld?
How do you contribute?
How do you do it in a way thatis not just about you?
And again, at home, like growingup, I would've had quite strong
influences from different peoplearound contribution.
What is it that you're going to,to give and what does leadership
(04:39):
really look like in alldifferent facets of life?
And then naturally, myself.
I remember being eight years ofage and thinking, I'm going to
try and meditate.
That just seems like aninteresting thing to do.
It's pretty, pretty weird thingto do for an age.
Well, some of the guys from myclass I think saw me and we're,
we're laughing at me quite a lotthe next week, but I was just
interested in why do people dothese things and how do we
(05:01):
connect with who we are and withother people and with the world.
So with those kinds of things asmy background, I was, you know,
Studying international commerce.
And I was at the time on trackto go into investment banking.
We had the the former head of a,of a major global investment
bank had gone to my school.
And he'd said, look, when you'refinished this particular
undergraduate degree, give me acall, come to London.
(05:23):
We'll get you trading.
We'll get going on that.
So there was that influence andthat angle.
And at the same time, I was.
Running men's groups.
I was running, you know, allthese kind of circles for people
to talk about.
What's the essence of life?
How do we contribute?
So I had these twin tracksrunning all the time.
So I moved into banking for alittle while.
I was truly awful, got out ofthat and moved into strategy
(05:44):
consulting.
And I was a good bit better atthat.
And looking at people and.
Organizations and strategy andhow do we get systems to work
well and how do we getperformance to be excellent in
ways that are also reallycontributing to people as well
as to, to the bottom you know,to, to, to the financial
element.
And at the same time, I wasjust, just curious in like, what
(06:07):
does it mean to live A life offlourishing.
What, what is the good life toparaphrase Aristotle, how do we
do it?
So I was reading, studying,seeking out mentors a lot of the
time.
And then when I was in my latetwenties, I encountered the work
of Richard Rohr, who youmentioned.
And there was this synthesis andthis integration of kind of all
(06:28):
these different worlds and thisunderstanding of contemplation
and being present to the momentand how we do anything is how we
do everything.
This whole idea of moving awayfrom, in some ways, what I'd
been schooled to do, which wasperformance, outcomes,
excellence, get results, makemoney, influence, contribute.
(06:50):
And then there was thiscounterpoint of, well, how do
we, How do we become verypresent to ourselves and to
others?
How do we focus on what'simportant and how do we
deconstruct narratives we mighthave around us that might be
pulling us in all thesedifferent directions that aren't
actually the most important, themost valuable directions.
So I spent quite a while tryingto work out how do we, how do we
(07:11):
square these circles?
How do we bring these thingstogether?
How do we focus on the outcomeas well as the process on where
we want to go, as well as how dowe get there?
And then ended up.
Yeah, starting a company about11 years ago, which is coaching
and leadership consulting andlooking at these ways of, of
working in systems and workingwith people and interpersonal
(07:31):
relationships.
And how does this contribute tosociety as well as all the
stakeholders withinorganizations?
And how do we do it in a waythat's deeply honoring of each
other?
That's deeply.
connecting from a humanperspective and that's present
to this moment as well as wherewe want to get to in the future.
Teri Schmidt (07:51):
Yeah, that there are many strings that we could
pull at there, and I, I thinkthere are many leaders listening
who, like you, grew up.
focused on, you know,achievement, outcomes and our
current world as it is seems tobe requiring more than just
(08:11):
that.
If, if we want to thrive and ifwe want those around us to
thrive.
And in particular, You know, Iknow leaders are facing an
incredible amount of uncertaintywhether that be related to
politics.
We just had an election here inthe United States whether that
be related to the environment,whether that, you know, there's
(08:35):
a, there's a myriad of factorsthat lead to that uncertainty.
You talk about how it's naturalin that situation to want to
seek to control more.
I've felt that It looks likefrom your, from your head
nodding that maybe you have feltthat.
I'm curious, and I know you talkabout in your book, why is that?
What, what, and what are therisks when we go that route?
(08:58):
What are the risks to theleader, to the team and to the
organization?
When we face that uncertaintyand respond by just seeking to
control more.
Patrick Boland (09:09):
Yeah, I love the questions.
Thank you.
What is that?
There's so many ways of thinkingabout it.
I think narrative, and nervoussystem are two headings that I
can just skim the surface ofthose.
It's a natural thing.
It's built into our, our nervoussystem.
It's a part of developmentalpsychology.
(09:31):
We, we want to exert influencein the world.
We want to assert ourselves.
We want to know that we have adegree of strength.
We have a degree of control.
So there's some element of itthat's very positive, healthy,
and appropriate.
At a big contextual level, Ithink there's a piece around
narrative and what's thenarrative of our community.
(09:53):
Of our society and of thisparticular place and time in the
history of the world for, forthe last few hundred years in
the Western world, we've mainlyused the narrative of the
machine and thought aboutinputs, throughputs, outputs.
If I just get the right inputs,if I just have the right
(10:13):
processes at the throughputs,we'll get the right outputs.
And there's an idea inherentwith that.
If I can control things.
Lots of reasons as to why that'sthe case.
Cartesian dualism, you know, Ithink, therefore I am.
This idea of empirical science,and we can control things.
And this is the best way oflooking at knowledge.
(10:34):
This is the best epistemologythat we can use.
So there's lots of, of Contextand reasons why that is the
case.
But in many ways, a lot of ourorganizations particular
corporations were, were formed,were structured at times when
that was the dominant thinking,build the right system, put the
right knobs in place, be able topull the levers of control, but
(10:55):
the right people in place inorder to to make sure that that
takes place, you know,traditional management, say from
over a hundred years ago,scientific management, the first
books that were written on it.
And then we can control thesystem and then things can work.
And if they're not working, thenthere's something wrong with the
machine, with the system.
So change the design.
Maybe it's not hierarchicalenough.
(11:16):
Maybe we need to flatten it out.
Who knows what we need to do,but it comes from this dominant
idea that we can control thingsand things are worth controlling
because if we're not in control,there's something wrong.
I think there's a little bit ofdeconstruction of that that
needs to take place in the book.
I have a section on that and anexercise looking at ontology and
(11:37):
epistemology, getting us tothink about what do we think the
good life is?
Is it You know, making a lot ofmoney, having a lot of
influence, having all thecontrol, making the decisions,
rising to the top, being anentrepreneur or whatever it is,
these are not bad things per se,but is it coming from an inner
place of fear of insecurity of,I need to do that or else this
(11:58):
is the narrative I've been givenby others and I haven't
questioned it.
And this is what my schoolinghas taught me.
This is what my society teachesme.
And then epistemology, you know,what's the nature of knowledge?
How do I know this is true?
How do I interpret you know,popular culture, characters from
movies, from my favorite books,sacred texts from the Bible, the
Quran, whatever it is that wekind of go, that is the truth.
(12:21):
Or from the constitution, theSupreme court, these people tell
me what truth is.
Therefore, this is what I knowto be true.
Therefore, I'm going to makethese choices.
And I think we, it's reallyhelpful in the first half of our
lives.
To have structure, to havecontainers within which there is
an idea of control.
We know what to aspire to andwhere to go.
(12:42):
And we can build block uponblock, build our ego, our
identities and build with otherpeople in community.
But then we get to the pointwhere it's like, well,
realistically, we can't controlthings.
There's so many forces outsideof our control, like.
From whether to, is the persongoing to fall in love with me
to, you know, there's loads ofdifferent ways of thinking about
(13:03):
it.
And then it's realizing, well,why do I feel the need to keep
on?
And then am I grasping more andmore?
Am I forcing people to behave incertain ways?
My team to behave in certainways?
Am I being coercive?
Am I being detached?
What am I doing in there?
So there's a whole piece aroundthe narrative.
And the second piece is aroundnervous system.
(13:25):
There's a part of our nervoussystem, and I write about this
in one of the chapters as well.
I'm eating from our body wherewe get triggered and we go into
a sympathetic nervous systemstates.
We go to a fight or flightresponse.
What happens in our brain is,you know, generally speaking, we
have an amygdala hijack.
The prefrontal cortex kind ofshuts down to a degree.
(13:47):
All of our.
Thinking quote unquote is mainlyemotional, you know, operating
out of our limbic system.
There's a combination of 79different hormones and we each
have a unique cocktail of these,of what we do when we're
triggered, when we're stressed.
And the reason that we gettriggered and stressed it's
different for everybody, but thereason that our body responds is
(14:10):
because it wants to control oursurvival.
It wants to keep us going.
There's a really good desirethere.
Yeah.
But if we just kowtow and bowdown to what our body wants and
to all the emotions that weexperience, we can just be
reactive.
And we can think, I need tocontrol things.
And we do it from a place ofreactivity rather than
(14:32):
proactivity.
From a place of fear,insecurity, and then there's a
knock on effect on ourrelationships.
There's a knock on effect on thepeople that we work with.
And on many, in many ways,there's a real.
Biological element of this, andwe're not thinking rationally or
logically or clearly, we'rejust, we're just reacting so,
(14:53):
you know, wanting to havecertainty, wanting to have
control narratives and nervoussystem pieces around that, and
then, you know, the second partof your question, Terry, what
does it do to those around us?
I think I've already begun totalk about it, but we have
people who who don't know whichversion of us is going to show
up in a meeting.
(15:13):
We've got a difficult behaviorsto manage.
I was meeting this morning withthe.
The chairman of a company, whenwe were talking about the
behaviors of some very seniorpeople in his company very
challenging behaviors someonewho calls himself a disruptor,
I'm a disruptor.
This is what I do.
You know, I like to, to poke andprod and as we've been working
over it a few months with thisparticular person, it's not that
(15:37):
he is a disruptor per se.
It's just, it's an excuse toexcuse the unhelpful behavior
Behaviors that it displays thatcause havoc within the team and
are having a knock on effect onsome of their clients as well So
people don't know How to havequality in a relationship people
(15:57):
don't know how they can trust usCan they trust us that we're
going to do what we say?
Can they trust us that we'regoing to communicate openly and
honestly?
Can they trust us that we'reactually for them as a human
being?
Things can become quitetransactional.
And then the system itselfdoesn't get the different
resources that it needs to tonourish.
Communication gets shut down.
(16:18):
Communication is the lifebloodof any organization, of any
relationship.
And then we kind of, we we, wedon't grow.
And over time we kind of fallaway and fall apart.
That's, that's what typicallyhappens.
That's how, that's how systemswork.
They're either growing or, orthey're going in the opposite
direction.
Teri Schmidt (16:33):
you might have someone listening that doesn't
feel like they're, you know,fully, you know, a disruptor or
maybe in the state all of thetime.
But just to even hear you talkabout the forces that we have
driving us in that way tooperate from a place of fear, to
operate from a place of a beliefthat we can control things,
(16:54):
whether that be just how we'relooking at everything as a
machine.
And I almost feel like that's,the water we swim in.
I mean, I think about how Ithink about certain things and
most of my career was focused onusing data to make improvements.
And it was all about, you know,what are the inputs?
What are the outputs?
(17:15):
Where are we seeing the errorsand how can we correct those
errors?
And I never questioned that.
You know, that's that's just theway that organizations are set
up for the most part, and Ithink are expected to run.
So I can see how that wouldfloat into our leadership, into
our relationships.
(17:36):
And in particular, you know,when you get to a place where
you have uncertainty, where youhave complexity.
going to revert back to, okay,what, what can I hold on to?
What can I impact toward thepositive?
How can I make this change?
And what pieces do I need tomove around to, you know, line
up so that the change willhappen in the way that I want it
(17:59):
to change?
Um, and so I'm not sure there'sa question there more than an
acknowledgement that this isdifficult.
Patrick Boland (18:08):
it is because we just think, you know, a good
leader is someone who's a goodpuppet master and they can just
pull all the strings and movethings properly and get what you
want.
And I think we need to changeour narrative.
We need to change the contextof, you know, look at ecosystems
and nature.
They're able to sustain.
Many different organisms somethings haunt others, some things
(18:33):
live off the detritus of others,some things flourish and grow,
there's a seasonality to it.
When any one part of anecosystem starts to dominate,
the whole ecosystem getsdestroyed over time.
So there's a piece around going,well, How do I move away from,
you know, this Newtonian idea ofphysics, you know, the, to
paraphrase this, the third,what's it called, the third the
(18:56):
third law of motion, I think itis.
For every action, there is anequal but opposite reaction.
How do we move away from that togoing, how can I participate?
How can I be present to what ishere and to what is unfolding?
How can I not be present?
Just think that this is, I'm aclock maker and I can just press
things, but get involved.
(19:17):
How can I get involved and allowconditions to emerge and have
cognitive flexibility aspsychologists tell us and be
open to adapting, to changing,to growing.
And for that to happen, we needto learn to be non attached
which over time, Creates, youknow, lower ego in us and
(19:38):
there's ways of doing that, butit's At the start of our career
and when we're young that thatis difficult And it's
appropriate to want to be incontrol.
It's highly appropriate my firstleadership experience I ran a
big charity event when I was ateenager and I was so stressed
and I was I was losing at therun of myself and one of the
really big bouncers at the door,who was essentially like a rugby
(20:02):
equivalent of a linebacker.
He just grabbed me, took measide and said, you can't
control everything.
We got this, relax.
I remember thinking, wow, Ireally can't control everything.
I want to.
It feels like that is whatleadership is.
That was the beginning for me oflearning about this.
And then honestly, Terry, it wasjust a lot of failure, a lot of
(20:22):
trying and a lot of things goingwrong that made me realize, you
know, you really can't controleverything.
You can do your absolute best.
But sometimes things happen thatare outside of your control and
it's, how do you respond tothat?
That's important.
That's where leadership reallycomes in.
Attachment
Teri Schmidt (20:42):
how are you just being present to it?
You brought up a couple of timesthe idea of being non attached.
And I know in your book you talkabout the attached.
versus detached continuum andhow it's really that we have to
kind of shift to a new plane ofnon attachment.
(21:05):
I'd love to hear a little bitmore about that and how that
benefits leaders and theirteams.
Patrick Boland (21:16):
is this belief in this need, this biological
need to be in control.
I need to be in control.
And what often happens is whenthings go wrong or we can't be
in control or people don't dowhat we want them to do exactly
the way we want them to do it,the pendulum can swing the whole
other way.
And we become detached.
We go, I don't care.
(21:37):
Didn't go my way.
I don't care.
And then we'll swing back theother way and go, well, I'm
going to try again.
And then we'll go, we'll becomedetached.
Non attached.
I use it in the book as asynonym for contemplation.
Non attached is I'm present towhat's happening.
I'm present to how I'm doing inthe here and now.
Yeah.
I'm paying attention to what'shappening around me.
(21:59):
I know what I want.
But at the same time, I'm notgoing to force it.
I'm going to see what isemerging.
I'm going to connect with peopleand with systems and I'm going
to participate because maybethere's even better stuff that
can take place if I just get outof the way here.
So it's, it comes from a placeof humility.
(22:22):
Realizing that maybe I don'thave all the answers and maybe
things could be even better.
And maybe I need to give peoplespace.
Maybe I need to haveconversations.
Maybe what I think we're doingand where I think we're going
isn't actually the bestdirection to go.
Let's be present to what is.
Let's be here.
It's not totally in my control.
Teri Schmidt (22:43):
You mentioned something you said, I know what
I want to start off with.
Why is that important?
Why is it not just about sittingback and just, you know, as a
leader of letting whateverhappens, happens, and, and
reacting to it in a sense?
Patrick Boland (23:00):
I think it's crucially important as leaders
that we have, A high degree ofbeing assertive where we know
what we like, what we don'tlike, what we want, what we
don't want and what we need andwhat we don't need to the best
of our knowledge thus far from,from how, where we are of
ourselves, our clients, all thedifferent stakeholders, the
(23:21):
systems within which we operate.
I think that's, that'simportant.
That is participating.
But then if we start to forcethat, And insist on, on our way
or believe, you know, I knowbest I'm not going to be able to
learn from others because Ireally know.
And so there's a lack ofcuriosity.
There's a lack of playfulness isoften one of the characteristics
(23:41):
that I find.
There's a lot of seriousness inhow we do things, but then the
temptation is to be dualistic inour approach.
So I either get it or I don't,I'm either right or I'm wrong.
And.
Being a contemplative, being nonattached is an invitation into
non dualistic ways of seeing,non dualistic ways of being and
saying, well, it's both theoutcome and the road that gets
(24:02):
us there.
It's about the financials andthe people that we interact
with.
It's having the capacity to Befriendly and be close to people
on my team.
And at the same time, havingclear boundaries as well.
It's not just one or the other.
It's not black and white.
There's it's acknowledging thecomplexities of life the reality
of the most things are gray.
(24:23):
I know a few leaders who callthemselves very logical leaders
and they are very logical inmany ways.
But then we talk about.
Have they managed peoplechallenges?
Have they interacted with their,their spouse?
And they go, okay, maybe it'snot quite as logical.
Maybe I'm not quite as logicalas, as I thought.
Maybe there are elements of lifewhere it's a bit of this and
it's a bit of that.
It's actually quite gray.
(24:43):
And the more important thing is,well, how do I show up and how
am I present?
Because how I am present createsthe conditions for the whole
system to flourish, therelationship to flourish.
You know, like I learned a longtime ago going in and meeting
clients or potential clients.
Stop talking, Patrick.
Just stop telling them all thegreat things you can do.
Just sit and listen and hearthem and give them space and be
(25:06):
honest.
And if you can't do things forthem, let them know that.
And if you can, let's just seecan we cultivate the
relationship and can it become awin win scenario.
And that's another element ofnon attachment and
contemplation.
It's looking for win winscenarios.
It's looking to buildrelationships, looking to build
trust and looking to contributerather than overly competitive.
(25:29):
You win.
I lose.
I win.
You lose.
Trying to do a deal and try toget even more out of it.
It's looking for mutual benefit,similar to an ecosystem
Teri Schmidt (25:40):
know, I have to say that just hearing you talk
about that and talk about nonattachment it even in me creates
a little sense of fear inside ofme.
And you know, it, it is thatholding, I don't think Our
leadership literature for themost part speaks to holding,
(26:03):
holding the paradoxes, a lot ofit is focused on dualistic
thinking.
A lot of it is focused on tipsand tricks to help us succeed.
How do the complexities thatwe're dealing with today as
leaders pull us beyond that?
Patrick Boland (26:21):
Beyond tips and techniques.
Yeah.
Well, tips and techniques.
If we think back to.
The narrative and the, and themetaphor, it comes from, you
know, the, the modern age themetaphor of the machine.
We might today say, update thesoftware, change up the
(26:41):
hardware, do a reboot and let'sjust keep on going.
So it assumes that we cancontrol things.
And then I say, you know, I justlook at the world around, I look
at what's happening in theworld, politically,
geopolitically.
I look at what's happening to,you know, share prices in the
last week.
I, I look at, you know differentcurrencies.
(27:03):
I look at different wars,different famines.
I look at, we, we have anelection here in Ireland.
We've just launched a generalelection.
So that's coming up in the nextfew weeks.
There are so many things wecannot control.
There are so many things wayoutside of our control.
Over the last few years I've.
I've been amazed to seeinfluencers putting posts up,
(27:25):
knocking off millions.
And then a couple of cases,billions off the share of the
price of the value of companiesin a day, and you have these
senior leaders who worked fordecades there, who worked their
way up with wonderful marketingwith, you know, very well road
tested approaches.
(27:46):
To essentially making sure thatwe're safe and that we're
controlling things and thatwe're building successfully.
There's so many things thesedays that, I mean, it's a cliche
at this point to talk about theVUCA world, you know, but it's
been around for 34 years now,this sense of the world being
volatile and uncertain andcomplex and chaotic, there's so
much that's outside of ourcontrol.
So the temptation is to buryyour head in the sand and to go,
(28:09):
I will control and I willmicromanage the small little
details and forget abouteverything else.
That's not going to do us Goodfor too long.
It's kind of escapism.
It's it's kind of being detachedSo tips and techniques Look,
there's a time and a place forit.
There's a time where we need toto Improve our performance where
(28:34):
there's things around habitsthat we have personal habits
Where there's a thing aroundhabits around how we communicate
with each other and there'sthere's things that are really
well You Researched and greatevidence around, you know, from
team dynamics to sales and salestraining courses.
All of that stuff I think isreally important.
But I don't think it's at theessence.
Like, why, why are we inbusiness?
(28:56):
Why are we leading?
What are we hoping to gain?
What are we hoping to give?
What's the whole point of it?
Is it to feel good about myself?
Is it Be better than otherpeople.
Is it to, to beat a lot ofpeople?
Is it to prove my, my father, myteachers wrong?
Or is there something deeper?
Is there something more?
And as we look around at theworld, there are plenty of.
(29:17):
Plenty of challenges.
And there are plenty ofchallenges that need really high
quality leadership, which is notabout just what can I gain?
But how can I integrate withinmyself and how can I lead, you
know, For purposes and causesthat are extremely important.
And how can I bring, you know,commercial exchange as part of
that and how that can be a forceof good in the world.
Teri Schmidt (29:40):
Yeah.
So if there is a listener outthere who's thinking, you know,
this, this sounds great, and I,I want to get there.
I want to start on the journeyto be a more contemplative
leader.
What, would you suggest?
How should they get started?
And I'm asking you for tips andtricks, so it's kind of ironic.
(30:01):
but,
Patrick Boland (30:02):
I have a kind of slow to say, okay, well, well,
you have to start somewhere.
You do have to start somewhere.
Long term change that is healthyand helpful and that sticks and
that has the capacity tocontinue to grow means we need
to do a, a deep dive into who weare and how we bring.
(30:26):
That energy and that focus toevery interaction that we have.
Some of the, like the first twothirds of my book, I mean, this
is the focus of it, so I mightas well speak to it, is moving
from our cognitiveunderstandings of ourself, the
narratives that we have, beingopen to question, or what are
the narratives that I havewhat's my story?
(30:49):
What do I tell myself?
What's my self talk made up of?
How does that fit into ourstory?
So, the narratives of those inmy society, in my community, and
the other narratives of thosewith whom I don't really
interact or, or even understandor know their stories very well.
And then, how does that interactwith me?
The story you know, the, themuch bigger picture of, you
know, the cosmos the universein, in which we live on this
(31:11):
tiny blue planet.
So there's pieces aroundnarratives.
And then I think moving from thecognitive then into, into the
pre conscious and then into thesubconscious is really
important.
And again, I've got.
I do it sequentially in thebook, looking at what are the
values that I have?
And I've interviewed with theCEO, the former CEO now of Ben
(31:32):
and Jerry's ice cream, talkingabout, you know, values for him
and things that influenced himgrowing up.
And then identities, this is acrucial part of our ego to think
of what are all the identitiesthat I've built up built up
over, over time.
And an identity is, you know,I'm known as like a high
performance leader.
I'm known as.
As a parent, as a daughter, as aspouse, as a friend, you know,
(31:55):
there's all these differentidentities and it's really
important psychologically thatwe build these up particularly
during the first half of life toreference Richard Rohr and Carl
Jung talking about the morningof life.
And then it's really appropriateand really important that we let
it go and we get out of the way.
And we realized that building upour ego.
(32:17):
Helps us establish herself inthe world.
Helps us to be known forsomething because it's what
society and family and cultureand friends say, you have to be
this in order to be okay, to besuccessful, to be acceptable,
whatever it is.
And then we get to the pointwhere we go, well, let's have a
look at these identities.
Are they all serving me now?
Maybe, I mean, I've worked withpeople who are in their fifties
(32:39):
and sixties.
Selling their companies, verysuccessful leaders.
And when we get down to brasstacks there, they're really
talking about, I've done thisfor a parent.
I've done this out of areaction.
This is an identity that I tookon.
It's made me monetarily very,very well off.
And I have a lot of influenceand I have a lot of social
(32:59):
kudos.
But I'm not necessarily veryhappy about it.
And I've led people in a certainway for, for a long time, and
maybe I'd like to make a changenow.
So there's an opportunity to, toto peel back the mask and the
masks and to look at what'sbeneath it and then to move from
the full self, which is this,this term from Thomas Merton and
our ego is our full self.
(33:21):
All the things we're known for.
To move from that into our trueself.
Who we are deep down.
And then I think a big journeyfor us all and a very difficult
and challenging journey is toSee the true self and to get to
the bottom of ourselves.
Some people call it the soul orthe, you know, the face we had
before we were born or whateverour philosophy or religion call
(33:42):
it.
And to realize that we're alwaysgoing to be leading.
We're always going to beinteracting with others from
this, from this place of kind ofa mixture of our false self.
And our true self, you know,this is, we're not going to
bring a dualistic approach tobeing non dualistic.
That wouldn't make sense.
But how can we allow more of whowe really are into each moment
(34:04):
and to each interaction?
And that takes courage.
Personally, I find that veryscary.
I was only saying it to a clientyesterday when we were having
like a, an honest conversationabout letting people see more of
who you are over time can bereally difficult.
But it can be really importantas we get to the bottom of
ourselves and as we get to thebottom of our leadership and why
(34:25):
we do what we do.
To kind of, to jump, but not toomuch of a tangent, Terry.
Like, you know, there's afantastic book, the, the five
wishes of the dying, I think itwas called.
And one, one of the wishes forall the men that this lady had
worked with, this nurse hadworked with was, I wish I hadn't
worked as hard.
I wish I'd been there with mykids when they were growing up
(34:47):
for others.
The wish was I wish I'd beencourageous enough to be myself
and let other people see that.
Teri Schmidt (34:56):
Mmhmmm.
Patrick Boland (34:56):
And when I see organizations and teams and
systems and families where youhave a person who has that
courage, who's done the work, itis unbelievably powerful.
The impact that that has onothers, the role modeling that
it has.
The mentoring that it has, thepermission that it gives to
other people to do the same, thenew narratives that it brings to
(35:20):
that system, it's, it'sprofound.
And I, you know, as I lookaround You know, from families
to organizations, a lot of thetime, it's just a lot of people
pretending to be, I'm thisperfect, great leader, this
perfect, great parent, thisperfect, great, whatever.
And we're projecting theseimages out.
And I think what our world needsis people to be vulnerable, to
(35:41):
be fallible to be honest.
It's touching on some of thework of Amy Edmondson and, you
know, psychological safety andhow do we work together really
well.
But I think we, we need that andbeing non attached and going on
that journey to become nonattached and acknowledging I
can't control everything.
It's a very courageous act.
But then it has such hugepotential upsides for the
(36:03):
relationships of the people wework with so that we can move
from transactional styleinteractions to transformational
interactions, where we feeldeeply seen and known.
And we're like, I'm going tofollow this person.
I want to be part of this team.
I want to build something.
I want to sell something that'sbeautiful, that's meaningful,
that's important and thatcontributes.
There's an energy about that.
(36:25):
And there's something.
deeply impactful, much more thanearning a few extra million and
getting an extra title.
Teri Schmidt (36:33):
Wholeheartedly agree and, you know, and a
little while back when you weretalking about, like, were they
causes that can be worked for?
I think Right there is, is aworthy cause.
You know that that impact thatwhen you do this work and you
have that ripple effect on, onthose around you, that that
(36:54):
ripple doesn't stop.
That's affecting people in theirhome lives and their families,
which flows out to theircommunities.
That it can make leading in a.
business that you might thinkmight not have, you know, a
great impact on the world.
You know, maybe you're making, Idon't know, furniture or
(37:15):
something but just the way thatyou lead, regardless of what the
product is, can have such atransformational effect.
Patrick Boland (37:25):
Such a huge effect.
You've reminded me, Terry, ofsomething I've never said in
public before, but I feel it'sappropriate to say it to you
now.
As a teenager, I was, I had ayear of deep depression, like
really, really stark and reallydeep because all my success
narratives were falling apart.
been you know a student topathlete in different sports and
(37:48):
music.
I was ticking all the boxes ofwhat was expected of me and it
all kind of fell apart and myhealth fell apart.
And Coming through thatexperience, that was my first
deconstruction coming throughthat experience.
I remember taking the vow when Iwas 17 years of age and I didn't
have the language for it at thetime, but I remember saying, I
think the best thing I can do inmy life is to do my work.
(38:10):
so that I don't pass on thispain and these narratives to
others.
Or if I'm ever married, or if Iever have kids I think this
would be the best thing.
And that's in some ways how Ieventually ended up doing this,
this work that I hadn'toriginally intended to do.
It kind of came knocking for me.
And I mean, that'sintergenerational trauma, right
(38:32):
there.
That's, that's dealing with it,breaking cycles, breaking
patterns.
It's laying down really healthypatterns for others and it's,
it's so profound wherever ittakes place, families, teams,
workplaces.
Teri Schmidt (38:45):
That's beautiful.
Thank you for sharing that.
And, and to think that you werethere at 17 realizing that it
was a priority to do your workso that those ripples were
positive ripples that you werespreading.
That's, that's prettyincredible.
Yeah.
(39:07):
I think we all have a lifelongworth of work you know, and, and
speaking about back to yourbook, I, I showed you how it is
so marked up my copy of it.
And I am continuing to, youknow, kind of revisit some of
the exercises that, that you putin there because they are so
helpful and we are the beginningof the work to becoming a
(39:27):
contemplative leader.
So I thank you for putting thisinto the world.
I would love to hear, what isyour hope for this book?
Patrick Boland (39:40):
It's a funny one.
When you write a book aboutbeing non attached, the
discipline is how can I be nonattached about it?
That, my favorite band is U2.
It's almost a cliche coming fromdown the road from in Dublin,
but they are my favorite bandand they have a lovely song
called Get Out of Your Own Way.
(40:00):
So my hope is that I would getout of the way of the content of
the book and not force it to bea thing and trust that whatever
it's going to do, it's going todo.
And that'll be a very positivething.
(40:23):
There's another part of me thatgoes, I hope that lots of
leaders who are ready, and whoare self aware, and who care
about consciousness withinthemselves, And within systems
within teams, within wholeorganizations, leaders from the
(40:43):
corporate world, leaders fromnot for profit, leaders who are
involved in politics.
My hope is that they would pickit up.
That there'd be something thatwould speak to them, that it
would be just a small piece forthem as, as they continue on
their their journey.
They will be drawn into deeperways of seeing and being, I have
(41:07):
a desire to include andtranscend being in control and
go, right, there's a, there aremoments and there is
appropriateness of this andknowing what I want, but also
you know, to, to talk about theparadoxical theory of change, if
we insist on how and when changetakes place, we stop changing
what's happening.
(41:29):
we don't insist on that, if weget out of the way of it, we
create the conditions for changeto take place.
And so I love leaders andinfluencers.
I talk about it in the book.
A leader these days, it's aninfluencer.
It's someone who has influencewherever.
It's not a positional roleanymore.
I'd love influencers to beleaders.
To use it and to be open to itand help them to continue on and
(41:52):
doing their work and then tobring that.
And then other great things intotheir life.
And how exactly that looks andwhen I'm, I'm not gonna try and
predict it or, or say it has tobe a certain way.
Without a
Teri Schmidt (42:07):
both the non attached and and maybe a little
bit more attached to answerthere.
It shows that it is a continualjourney.
To operate from a non attachedplace.
So thank you for that.
And I have one more questionthat we ask all of our guests
because the title of the podcastis strong leaders serve.
(42:28):
I'd love to hear what strongleaders serve means to you.
Patrick Boland (42:33):
Yeah.
I love the question.
I'll answer it in, in the frameof spiral dynamics, which I
wrote about in the last chapterof the book when I think about
service and I think about why weserve, I think a really healthy
way of serving is because wedon't need to, we don't, We
don't need to do it for selfishreasons to feel good about
(42:54):
ourselves, to have our name inlights or to be seen to be that,
that kind of a person, that kindof leader.
We've moved through differentparts of our ego.
We want to be seen as this.
We want to be excellent at that.
And essentially there's a,there's a low ego within ourself
that we're We're content, we'recomfortable in our skin, and we
desire to contribute to thewhole.
(43:16):
And a part of that is just avery natural overflowing of, I'm
going to give of myself, I'mgoing to encourage others, I'm
going to motivate others.
Part of serving, I think, issometimes being very assertive
and having very healthy,boundaried conversations.
Stopping bullying behaviours.
Net naming things that areunhealthy within the wider
system.
So when I think of strongleaders serve, I think it takes
(43:36):
a lot of strength to do ourwork, to be able to serve from
that place, that low ego place,with strength.
And be deeply confident in thatand to be courageous in that,
you know, you know, theetymology of courage to act with
heart, to be able to do that.
Without controlling and withoutforcing.
(43:59):
I think that's, it's a verydifficult dance and there's a,
there's always more steps tolearn.
But I think when, when I've seenit happen, there's just such a
deep strength and such a hugeimpact.
And I personally get inspired.
So that, that's to me is thatstrong.
And that's, that's real service.
Teri Schmidt (44:20):
again, very well said, and I said last question,
but I, I would love to hear alittle bit more about, you said
when I've seen it happen, it, itis so impactful, um, can you
give a little bit more detailabout that?
Because again, because we havethe narrative, because we have,
you know, our body workingagainst us people might want to
(44:42):
hear about.
What's the difference?
You know, what's it, what's thedifference if I serve from a
place of wanting to show that Iadhere to particular principles
or I'm doing what my parentstold me or I want other people
to think that I'm good?
What's the difference betweenthat and serving from a place
(45:02):
where you are not attached?
In terms of the outcome.
Which again is a machinist.
Patrick Boland (45:12):
That's the only thing wrong with it.
It's a helpful metaphor for atime.
The outcome can look similar onthe surface, But beneath the
surface, it feels verydifferent.
Let me answer by, by telling ashort story of someone I worked
with for a few years.
She, she was shut out.
Quite a large role in ainternational bank and I coached
(45:33):
her for Three years, and then Iworked with her team as well.
It was so fascinating to seeher.
She threw herself in to, to thisprocess.
And she, you know, we weretalking about deconstructing all
the narratives from family.
Why was she in the bank?
Why did she have this role?
She was able to talk about herfears, her insecurities, her
(45:55):
doubts.
There were, there were weeks andmonths where I'm going to leave
I'm going to leave corporatelife completely.
I'm going to go.
And then she bends back and thenshe go, I actually think there's
so much of me here and there'sso much that I have to give
here.
And I, you know, I'm not yourtypical person within this
system.
So she worked through so much ofthat.
And then, As a result of that,and then working with her team,
(46:16):
and we did big exercises ontrust with the team and
difficult conversations, and wehad conflict, we had, we had two
members in the team who hadn'tspoken to each other since
literally there'd been a fistfight in a bar three years
earlier, like the kind of stuffyou just can't script, like
that's what showed up in theroom and going through that
process, seeing this phenomenalleader, just Deepen and grow in
(46:39):
her confidence, seeing her makedecisions and not second guess
herself, seeing her at onepoint, let somebody go from the
team who was.
Very unhelpful and she'd beenreticent to do that in the past,
but seeing how she went about itand seeing the conversation she
had and seeing the respect thatwas there as well as, as anger,
(47:02):
which is very normal.
Then seeing the respect from theother team members that she had
actually, you know, made adifficult decision.
And I'd come from a place beforeshe was so human about it.
So saying, look, I don't likethis.
I don't enjoy this.
I don't want to be doing this.
Okay.
But I'm going to do it because Isee the benefit to the team and
that was service right there,the way she moved in and had the
(47:24):
one to one conversations thatwere just great.
Entirely focused on the peoplethat she was talking to.
So completely different type ofone to one conversation,
depending on where they were at,what they needed, seeking to
empower them to the thing thatthey cared of.
She had coders on the team.
So seeking to findopportunities.
She had people who werechallengers on the team.
So kind of going, I need you totake that energy and I need you
(47:45):
to challenge some of the fringesof what we're doing here and
empowering them.
She was delegating to people.
What happened was over time.
Her actual job became a littleless stressful because she was
able to delegate.
She was able to empower toothers.
And she had more time to, to tofocus on what is important.
What direction are we going in?
She was able to, she's now anexecutive, but she was able to
(48:06):
essentially move into anexecutive role of getting out of
the weeds, getting into thebigger picture and understanding
What is it I'm doing and why andhow do I want to support people
and how do I not just have aplan for them?
How do I listen to them and talkto them?
And how do we develop the teamover a number of years?
So seeing her grow was, was oneof the huge privileges of the
(48:30):
last, the last five or six yearsof my work.
And the impact that it had on asystemic level with the
individuals and with the teamwithin the organization.
The whole culture and how itstood out as a very different
culture and started to kind ofprod at the dominant culture
within that financialinstitution where people started
to take notice and go, what isthat?
As Meg Wheatley, a mentor ofmine says, you know, there's an
(48:53):
island of sanity that we cancreate and we can light little
fires within the system.
And these can be little ideasfor people to go.
That's possible.
And then people start to movefrom idea into a lived
experience of it and go, What ifthat became the norm around
(49:14):
here?
If our system looked like that?
What a place to work.
What a place to be.
What a place in which tocontribute.
So seeing that happen, to me,that was like ultimate service.
And she did her work and it wasreally difficult for the first
couple of years.
And her individual coaching wasreally difficult.
And then she did it.
It was beautiful.
Teri Schmidt (49:30):
that's a great illustration.
I think the fact that she couldhave done all of that, she could
have had difficult conversationswithout doing the inner work,
but would it have lit that fire,like you said, that had the more
systemic impact on everyoneelse?
Probably not.
It probably would have been muchmore isolated, a one time thing.
(49:51):
It might have been laced in thesense with stress and, you know,
discomfort for people more sothan it was when she had done
that in her work and, and it didhave that impact of helping
others to thrive in the way thatit was done.
Patrick Boland (50:08):
Thank you.
You've answered that part of thequestion that I totally ignored.
So thank you.
Teri Schmidt (50:12):
Oh, no, no, you, you illustrated it.
And I just wanted to reflectback how, how it landed on me
and, and make sure that it wasaligned with your experience.
Well, Patrick I've, I've.
thoroughly enjoyed thisconversation and am very
appreciative of your time.
I will have, of course, the linkto your book and your website in
(50:34):
the show notes, but if there'ssomeone out there who would like
to learn more beyond buying thebook or would like to, to follow
your work, is there anywhereelse that you would like us to
direct them to?
Mm
Patrick Boland (50:47):
yes.
So the, the book has his websitewith its online course and, and
master classes as well, and thenthere's my company's website, so
that's connexus.
ie.
So you can direct people thereif they're interested in, in
thinking of some of the biggerissues as well, beyond just the
Teri Schmidt (51:03):
Mm hmm..
Excellent.
Well, thank you again for yourtime today.
Patrick Boland (51:08):
My pleasure to really enjoy the conversation
and great to be with you here.
Teri Schmidt (51:14):
Be sure to check out Patrick's book, The
Contemplative Leader, and evenbetter, his free masterclass and
his online course that walks youthrough the exercises in his
book.
You can find all those links inthe show notes.
And until next time, lead withthis quote by Patrick in mind.
Over time, as we dedicateourselves to exploring and
(51:37):
taking responsibility for ourwhole self, our internal world
becomes mirrored in our externalworld.
Happy December.
I can't believe I'm saying thatalready, but here we are today.
I'm grateful to be able to sharewith you one of my favorite
conversations that I've hadsince starting this podcast.
If you are feeling frenzied inyour leadership and in your
life, I'm hopeful and confidentthat this conversation with
Patrick Boland will bring you arespite of calm and focus.
(00:24):
Patrick is a leadershipconsultant, executive coach,
psychotherapist, and traineracross several industries and
sectors around the world.
He has worked with organizationsranging from Salesforce to Lego,
Google to Unilever, and Citi tothe Center for Action and
Contemplation.
In 2021, Patrick co authored abook of reflections titled
(00:47):
Everything is Sacred with thecontemplative teacher Richard
Rohr.
And as you'll hear me talk toPatrick about richard Rohr has a
special place in my life, as mydad, when I was a kid, used to
play Father Richard's cassettetapes anytime we were driving
anywhere.
And then my dad and I wouldactually discuss them at our
(01:08):
special breakfasts at PaneraBread.
Father Richard has definitelyshaped my view of the world,
Patrick founded his company,Connexus, in 2013.
It's an organization thatcoaches leaders and their teams
using a combination ofneuroscience, depth psychology,
and embodied experientiallearning.
Patrick lives with his familynear Dublin, Ireland, and spends
(01:31):
much of his free time sailing orplaying football with his sons.
So let's get right into thisrich conversation.
I'm Terry Schmidt.
Executive and leadership coachat strong leaders serve, where
we partner with compassionatedriven leaders and their teams
to transform potential intoperformance.
(01:52):
And this is the strong leadersserve podcast.
Well, welcome to the strongleader serve podcast, Patrick.
(02:13):
I have been looking forward tothis conversation for a long
time.
I think I mentioned that my dadused to pop in father Richard's
tapes when I was about five.
So I feel like he's kind of withus now smiling down from up
above in this conversation.
And I was, so intrigued andexcited to discover you and how
(02:37):
you are bringing fatherRichard's work into the space of
leadership development, becausethat is combining two passions I
have as well.
So thank you again for beinghere today.
Patrick Boland (02:49):
My great pleasure.
Delighted to be with you, Terry.
Teri Schmidt (02:51):
Well, I did give the audience a little bit of an
intro to you but I would love tohear it from you just a little
bit about your journey to whereyou are today and how elements
of that journey led to yourcurrent work and in particular
to your authoring of your book,The Contemplative Leader.
Yeah.
Mm.
(03:12):
Mhm.
Patrick Boland (03:14):
to tell the same story as you know yourself.
I reckon two broad themes in mylife have brought me to where I
am today.
And obviously it started when Iwas quite young.
And these have been the themesof like excellence and
contemplation.
And I didn't even know thatthese were the themes until I
look back as, as an adult in hisforties.
(03:35):
Growing up, I was brought up inan environment, in a family, in
social circles where the pursuitof excellence was, was really
important.
There was a lot of emphasis onhard work, on dedication, on
education.
And within that, there was kindof a spiritual element to that.
So I went to a Jesuit highschool in Dublin, in Ireland
(03:57):
here.
And within that, Thatenvironment, we were very much
afforded the opportunity toreflect on what's important and
how do we want to contribute inthe world.
And there was a great phrasethat was talked about from time
to time from different teachers.
And we even had it up in thelibrary wall.
If, if you want peace, work forjustice.
(04:17):
So there was this idea from avery young age of like, how do
you bring your gifts to theworld?
How do you contribute?
How do you do it in a way thatis not just about you?
And again, at home, like growingup, I would've had quite strong
influences from different peoplearound contribution.
What is it that you're going to,to give and what does leadership
(04:39):
really look like in alldifferent facets of life?
And then naturally, myself.
I remember being eight years ofage and thinking, I'm going to
try and meditate.
That just seems like aninteresting thing to do.
It's pretty, pretty weird thingto do for an age.
Well, some of the guys from myclass I think saw me and we're,
we're laughing at me quite a lotthe next week, but I was just
interested in why do people dothese things and how do we
(05:01):
connect with who we are and withother people and with the world.
So with those kinds of things asmy background, I was, you know,
Studying international commerce.
And I was at the time on trackto go into investment banking.
We had the the former head of a,of a major global investment
bank had gone to my school.
And he'd said, look, when you'refinished this particular
undergraduate degree, give me acall, come to London.
(05:23):
We'll get you trading.
We'll get going on that.
So there was that influence andthat angle.
And at the same time, I was.
Running men's groups.
I was running, you know, allthese kind of circles for people
to talk about.
What's the essence of life?
How do we contribute?
So I had these twin tracksrunning all the time.
So I moved into banking for alittle while.
I was truly awful, got out ofthat and moved into strategy
(05:44):
consulting.
And I was a good bit better atthat.
And looking at people and.
Organizations and strategy andhow do we get systems to work
well and how do we getperformance to be excellent in
ways that are also reallycontributing to people as well
as to, to the bottom you know,to, to, to the financial
element.
And at the same time, I wasjust, just curious in like, what
(06:07):
does it mean to live A life offlourishing.
What, what is the good life toparaphrase Aristotle, how do we
do it?
So I was reading, studying,seeking out mentors a lot of the
time.
And then when I was in my latetwenties, I encountered the work
of Richard Rohr, who youmentioned.
And there was this synthesis andthis integration of kind of all
(06:28):
these different worlds and thisunderstanding of contemplation
and being present to the momentand how we do anything is how we
do everything.
This whole idea of moving awayfrom, in some ways, what I'd
been schooled to do, which wasperformance, outcomes,
excellence, get results, makemoney, influence, contribute.
(06:50):
And then there was thiscounterpoint of, well, how do
we, How do we become verypresent to ourselves and to
others?
How do we focus on what'simportant and how do we
deconstruct narratives we mighthave around us that might be
pulling us in all thesedifferent directions that aren't
actually the most important, themost valuable directions.
So I spent quite a while tryingto work out how do we, how do we
(07:11):
square these circles?
How do we bring these thingstogether?
How do we focus on the outcomeas well as the process on where
we want to go, as well as how dowe get there?
And then ended up.
Yeah, starting a company about11 years ago, which is coaching
and leadership consulting andlooking at these ways of, of
working in systems and workingwith people and interpersonal
(07:31):
relationships.
And how does this contribute tosociety as well as all the
stakeholders withinorganizations?
And how do we do it in a waythat's deeply honoring of each
other?
That's deeply.
connecting from a humanperspective and that's present
to this moment as well as wherewe want to get to in the future.
Teri Schmidt (07:51):
Yeah, that there are many strings that we could
pull at there, and I, I thinkthere are many leaders listening
who, like you, grew up.
focused on, you know,achievement, outcomes and our
current world as it is seems tobe requiring more than just
(08:11):
that.
If, if we want to thrive and ifwe want those around us to
thrive.
And in particular, You know, Iknow leaders are facing an
incredible amount of uncertaintywhether that be related to
politics.
We just had an election here inthe United States whether that
be related to the environment,whether that, you know, there's
(08:35):
a, there's a myriad of factorsthat lead to that uncertainty.
You talk about how it's naturalin that situation to want to
seek to control more.
I've felt that It looks likefrom your, from your head
nodding that maybe you have feltthat.
I'm curious, and I know you talkabout in your book, why is that?
What, what, and what are therisks when we go that route?
(08:58):
What are the risks to theleader, to the team and to the
organization?
When we face that uncertaintyand respond by just seeking to
control more.
Patrick Boland (09:09):
Yeah, I love the questions.
Thank you.
What is that?
There's so many ways of thinkingabout it.
I think narrative, and nervoussystem are two headings that I
can just skim the surface ofthose.
It's a natural thing.
It's built into our, our nervoussystem.
It's a part of developmentalpsychology.
(09:31):
We, we want to exert influencein the world.
We want to assert ourselves.
We want to know that we have adegree of strength.
We have a degree of control.
So there's some element of itthat's very positive, healthy,
and appropriate.
At a big contextual level, Ithink there's a piece around
narrative and what's thenarrative of our community.
(09:53):
Of our society and of thisparticular place and time in the
history of the world for, forthe last few hundred years in
the Western world, we've mainlyused the narrative of the
machine and thought aboutinputs, throughputs, outputs.
If I just get the right inputs,if I just have the right
(10:13):
processes at the throughputs,we'll get the right outputs.
And there's an idea inherentwith that.
If I can control things.
Lots of reasons as to why that'sthe case.
Cartesian dualism, you know, Ithink, therefore I am.
This idea of empirical science,and we can control things.
And this is the best way oflooking at knowledge.
(10:34):
This is the best epistemologythat we can use.
So there's lots of, of Contextand reasons why that is the
case.
But in many ways, a lot of ourorganizations particular
corporations were, were formed,were structured at times when
that was the dominant thinking,build the right system, put the
right knobs in place, be able topull the levers of control, but
(10:55):
the right people in place inorder to to make sure that that
takes place, you know,traditional management, say from
over a hundred years ago,scientific management, the first
books that were written on it.
And then we can control thesystem and then things can work.
And if they're not working, thenthere's something wrong with the
machine, with the system.
So change the design.
Maybe it's not hierarchicalenough.
(11:16):
Maybe we need to flatten it out.
Who knows what we need to do,but it comes from this dominant
idea that we can control thingsand things are worth controlling
because if we're not in control,there's something wrong.
I think there's a little bit ofdeconstruction of that that
needs to take place in the book.
I have a section on that and anexercise looking at ontology and
(11:37):
epistemology, getting us tothink about what do we think the
good life is?
Is it You know, making a lot ofmoney, having a lot of
influence, having all thecontrol, making the decisions,
rising to the top, being anentrepreneur or whatever it is,
these are not bad things per se,but is it coming from an inner
place of fear of insecurity of,I need to do that or else this
(11:58):
is the narrative I've been givenby others and I haven't
questioned it.
And this is what my schoolinghas taught me.
This is what my society teachesme.
And then epistemology, you know,what's the nature of knowledge?
How do I know this is true?
How do I interpret you know,popular culture, characters from
movies, from my favorite books,sacred texts from the Bible, the
Quran, whatever it is that wekind of go, that is the truth.
(12:21):
Or from the constitution, theSupreme court, these people tell
me what truth is.
Therefore, this is what I knowto be true.
Therefore, I'm going to makethese choices.
And I think we, it's reallyhelpful in the first half of our
lives.
To have structure, to havecontainers within which there is
an idea of control.
We know what to aspire to andwhere to go.
(12:42):
And we can build block uponblock, build our ego, our
identities and build with otherpeople in community.
But then we get to the pointwhere it's like, well,
realistically, we can't controlthings.
There's so many forces outsideof our control, like.
From whether to, is the persongoing to fall in love with me
to, you know, there's loads ofdifferent ways of thinking about
(13:03):
it.
And then it's realizing, well,why do I feel the need to keep
on?
And then am I grasping more andmore?
Am I forcing people to behave incertain ways?
My team to behave in certainways?
Am I being coercive?
Am I being detached?
What am I doing in there?
So there's a whole piece aroundthe narrative.
And the second piece is aroundnervous system.
(13:25):
There's a part of our nervoussystem, and I write about this
in one of the chapters as well.
I'm eating from our body wherewe get triggered and we go into
a sympathetic nervous systemstates.
We go to a fight or flightresponse.
What happens in our brain is,you know, generally speaking, we
have an amygdala hijack.
The prefrontal cortex kind ofshuts down to a degree.
(13:47):
All of our.
Thinking quote unquote is mainlyemotional, you know, operating
out of our limbic system.
There's a combination of 79different hormones and we each
have a unique cocktail of these,of what we do when we're
triggered, when we're stressed.
And the reason that we gettriggered and stressed it's
different for everybody, but thereason that our body responds is
(14:10):
because it wants to control oursurvival.
It wants to keep us going.
There's a really good desirethere.
Yeah.
But if we just kowtow and bowdown to what our body wants and
to all the emotions that weexperience, we can just be
reactive.
And we can think, I need tocontrol things.
And we do it from a place ofreactivity rather than
(14:32):
proactivity.
From a place of fear,insecurity, and then there's a
knock on effect on ourrelationships.
There's a knock on effect on thepeople that we work with.
And on many, in many ways,there's a real.
Biological element of this, andwe're not thinking rationally or
logically or clearly, we'rejust, we're just reacting so,
(14:53):
you know, wanting to havecertainty, wanting to have
control narratives and nervoussystem pieces around that, and
then, you know, the second partof your question, Terry, what
does it do to those around us?
I think I've already begun totalk about it, but we have
people who who don't know whichversion of us is going to show
up in a meeting.
(15:13):
We've got a difficult behaviorsto manage.
I was meeting this morning withthe.
The chairman of a company, whenwe were talking about the
behaviors of some very seniorpeople in his company very
challenging behaviors someonewho calls himself a disruptor,
I'm a disruptor.
This is what I do.
You know, I like to, to poke andprod and as we've been working
over it a few months with thisparticular person, it's not that
(15:37):
he is a disruptor per se.
It's just, it's an excuse toexcuse the unhelpful behavior
Behaviors that it displays thatcause havoc within the team and
are having a knock on effect onsome of their clients as well So
people don't know How to havequality in a relationship people
(15:57):
don't know how they can trust usCan they trust us that we're
going to do what we say?
Can they trust us that we'regoing to communicate openly and
honestly?
Can they trust us that we'reactually for them as a human
being?
Things can become quitetransactional.
And then the system itselfdoesn't get the different
resources that it needs to tonourish.
Communication gets shut down.
(16:18):
Communication is the lifebloodof any organization, of any
relationship.
And then we kind of, we we, wedon't grow.
And over time we kind of fallaway and fall apart.
That's, that's what typicallyhappens.
That's how, that's how systemswork.
They're either growing or, orthey're going in the opposite
direction.
Teri Schmidt (16:33):
you might have someone listening that doesn't
feel like they're, you know,fully, you know, a disruptor or
maybe in the state all of thetime.
But just to even hear you talkabout the forces that we have
driving us in that way tooperate from a place of fear, to
operate from a place of a beliefthat we can control things,
(16:54):
whether that be just how we'relooking at everything as a
machine.
And I almost feel like that's,the water we swim in.
I mean, I think about how Ithink about certain things and
most of my career was focused onusing data to make improvements.
And it was all about, you know,what are the inputs?
What are the outputs?
(17:15):
Where are we seeing the errorsand how can we correct those
errors?
And I never questioned that.
You know, that's that's just theway that organizations are set
up for the most part, and Ithink are expected to run.
So I can see how that wouldfloat into our leadership, into
our relationships.
(17:36):
And in particular, you know,when you get to a place where
you have uncertainty, where youhave complexity.
going to revert back to, okay,what, what can I hold on to?
What can I impact toward thepositive?
How can I make this change?
And what pieces do I need tomove around to, you know, line
up so that the change willhappen in the way that I want it
(17:59):
to change?
Um, and so I'm not sure there'sa question there more than an
acknowledgement that this isdifficult.
Patrick Boland (18:08):
it is because we just think, you know, a good
leader is someone who's a goodpuppet master and they can just
pull all the strings and movethings properly and get what you
want.
And I think we need to changeour narrative.
We need to change the contextof, you know, look at ecosystems
and nature.
They're able to sustain.
Many different organisms somethings haunt others, some things
(18:33):
live off the detritus of others,some things flourish and grow,
there's a seasonality to it.
When any one part of anecosystem starts to dominate,
the whole ecosystem getsdestroyed over time.
So there's a piece around going,well, How do I move away from,
you know, this Newtonian idea ofphysics, you know, the, to
paraphrase this, the third,what's it called, the third the
(18:56):
third law of motion, I think itis.
For every action, there is anequal but opposite reaction.
How do we move away from that togoing, how can I participate?
How can I be present to what ishere and to what is unfolding?
How can I not be present?
Just think that this is, I'm aclock maker and I can just press
things, but get involved.
(19:17):
How can I get involved and allowconditions to emerge and have
cognitive flexibility aspsychologists tell us and be
open to adapting, to changing,to growing.
And for that to happen, we needto learn to be non attached
which over time, Creates, youknow, lower ego in us and
(19:38):
there's ways of doing that, butit's At the start of our career
and when we're young that thatis difficult And it's
appropriate to want to be incontrol.
It's highly appropriate my firstleadership experience I ran a
big charity event when I was ateenager and I was so stressed
and I was I was losing at therun of myself and one of the
really big bouncers at the door,who was essentially like a rugby
(20:02):
equivalent of a linebacker.
He just grabbed me, took measide and said, you can't
control everything.
We got this, relax.
I remember thinking, wow, Ireally can't control everything.
I want to.
It feels like that is whatleadership is.
That was the beginning for me oflearning about this.
And then honestly, Terry, it wasjust a lot of failure, a lot of
(20:22):
trying and a lot of things goingwrong that made me realize, you
know, you really can't controleverything.
You can do your absolute best.
But sometimes things happen thatare outside of your control and
it's, how do you respond tothat?
That's important.
That's where leadership reallycomes in.
Attachment
Teri Schmidt (20:42):
how are you just being present to it?
You brought up a couple of timesthe idea of being non attached.
And I know in your book you talkabout the attached.
versus detached continuum andhow it's really that we have to
kind of shift to a new plane ofnon attachment.
(21:05):
I'd love to hear a little bitmore about that and how that
benefits leaders and theirteams.
Patrick Boland (21:16):
is this belief in this need, this biological
need to be in control.
I need to be in control.
And what often happens is whenthings go wrong or we can't be
in control or people don't dowhat we want them to do exactly
the way we want them to do it,the pendulum can swing the whole
other way.
And we become detached.
We go, I don't care.
(21:37):
Didn't go my way.
I don't care.
And then we'll swing back theother way and go, well, I'm
going to try again.
And then we'll go, we'll becomedetached.
Non attached.
I use it in the book as asynonym for contemplation.
Non attached is I'm present towhat's happening.
I'm present to how I'm doing inthe here and now.
Yeah.
I'm paying attention to what'shappening around me.
(21:59):
I know what I want.
But at the same time, I'm notgoing to force it.
I'm going to see what isemerging.
I'm going to connect with peopleand with systems and I'm going
to participate because maybethere's even better stuff that
can take place if I just get outof the way here.
So it's, it comes from a placeof humility.
(22:22):
Realizing that maybe I don'thave all the answers and maybe
things could be even better.
And maybe I need to give peoplespace.
Maybe I need to haveconversations.
Maybe what I think we're doingand where I think we're going
isn't actually the bestdirection to go.
Let's be present to what is.
Let's be here.
It's not totally in my control.
Teri Schmidt (22:43):
You mentioned something you said, I know what
I want to start off with.
Why is that important?
Why is it not just about sittingback and just, you know, as a
leader of letting whateverhappens, happens, and, and
reacting to it in a sense?
Patrick Boland (23:00):
I think it's crucially important as leaders
that we have, A high degree ofbeing assertive where we know
what we like, what we don'tlike, what we want, what we
don't want and what we need andwhat we don't need to the best
of our knowledge thus far from,from how, where we are of
ourselves, our clients, all thedifferent stakeholders, the
(23:21):
systems within which we operate.
I think that's, that'simportant.
That is participating.
But then if we start to forcethat, And insist on, on our way
or believe, you know, I knowbest I'm not going to be able to
learn from others because Ireally know.
And so there's a lack ofcuriosity.
There's a lack of playfulness isoften one of the characteristics
(23:41):
that I find.
There's a lot of seriousness inhow we do things, but then the
temptation is to be dualistic inour approach.
So I either get it or I don't,I'm either right or I'm wrong.
And.
Being a contemplative, being nonattached is an invitation into
non dualistic ways of seeing,non dualistic ways of being and
saying, well, it's both theoutcome and the road that gets
(24:02):
us there.
It's about the financials andthe people that we interact
with.
It's having the capacity to Befriendly and be close to people
on my team.
And at the same time, havingclear boundaries as well.
It's not just one or the other.
It's not black and white.
There's it's acknowledging thecomplexities of life the reality
of the most things are gray.
(24:23):
I know a few leaders who callthemselves very logical leaders
and they are very logical inmany ways.
But then we talk about.
Have they managed peoplechallenges?
Have they interacted with their,their spouse?
And they go, okay, maybe it'snot quite as logical.
Maybe I'm not quite as logicalas, as I thought.
Maybe there are elements of lifewhere it's a bit of this and
it's a bit of that.
It's actually quite gray.
(24:43):
And the more important thing is,well, how do I show up and how
am I present?
Because how I am present createsthe conditions for the whole
system to flourish, therelationship to flourish.
You know, like I learned a longtime ago going in and meeting
clients or potential clients.
Stop talking, Patrick.
Just stop telling them all thegreat things you can do.
Just sit and listen and hearthem and give them space and be
(25:06):
honest.
And if you can't do things forthem, let them know that.
And if you can, let's just seecan we cultivate the
relationship and can it become awin win scenario.
And that's another element ofnon attachment and
contemplation.
It's looking for win winscenarios.
It's looking to buildrelationships, looking to build
trust and looking to contributerather than overly competitive.
(25:29):
You win.
I lose.
I win.
You lose.
Trying to do a deal and try toget even more out of it.
It's looking for mutual benefit,similar to an ecosystem
Teri Schmidt (25:40):
know, I have to say that just hearing you talk
about that and talk about nonattachment it even in me creates
a little sense of fear inside ofme.
And you know, it, it is thatholding, I don't think Our
leadership literature for themost part speaks to holding,
(26:03):
holding the paradoxes, a lot ofit is focused on dualistic
thinking.
A lot of it is focused on tipsand tricks to help us succeed.
How do the complexities thatwe're dealing with today as
leaders pull us beyond that?
Patrick Boland (26:21):
Beyond tips and techniques.
Yeah.
Well, tips and techniques.
If we think back to.
The narrative and the, and themetaphor, it comes from, you
know, the, the modern age themetaphor of the machine.
We might today say, update thesoftware, change up the
(26:41):
hardware, do a reboot and let'sjust keep on going.
So it assumes that we cancontrol things.
And then I say, you know, I justlook at the world around, I look
at what's happening in theworld, politically,
geopolitically.
I look at what's happening to,you know, share prices in the
last week.
I, I look at, you know differentcurrencies.
(27:03):
I look at different wars,different famines.
I look at, we, we have anelection here in Ireland.
We've just launched a generalelection.
So that's coming up in the nextfew weeks.
There are so many things wecannot control.
There are so many things wayoutside of our control.
Over the last few years I've.
I've been amazed to seeinfluencers putting posts up,
(27:25):
knocking off millions.
And then a couple of cases,billions off the share of the
price of the value of companiesin a day, and you have these
senior leaders who worked fordecades there, who worked their
way up with wonderful marketingwith, you know, very well road
tested approaches.
(27:46):
To essentially making sure thatwe're safe and that we're
controlling things and thatwe're building successfully.
There's so many things thesedays that, I mean, it's a cliche
at this point to talk about theVUCA world, you know, but it's
been around for 34 years now,this sense of the world being
volatile and uncertain andcomplex and chaotic, there's so
much that's outside of ourcontrol.
So the temptation is to buryyour head in the sand and to go,
(28:09):
I will control and I willmicromanage the small little
details and forget abouteverything else.
That's not going to do us Goodfor too long.
It's kind of escapism.
It's it's kind of being detachedSo tips and techniques Look,
there's a time and a place forit.
There's a time where we need toto Improve our performance where
(28:34):
there's things around habitsthat we have personal habits
Where there's a thing aroundhabits around how we communicate
with each other and there'sthere's things that are really
well You Researched and greatevidence around, you know, from
team dynamics to sales and salestraining courses.
All of that stuff I think isreally important.
But I don't think it's at theessence.
Like, why, why are we inbusiness?
(28:56):
Why are we leading?
What are we hoping to gain?
What are we hoping to give?
What's the whole point of it?
Is it to feel good about myself?
Is it Be better than otherpeople.
Is it to, to beat a lot ofpeople?
Is it to prove my, my father, myteachers wrong?
Or is there something deeper?
Is there something more?
And as we look around at theworld, there are plenty of.
(29:17):
Plenty of challenges.
And there are plenty ofchallenges that need really high
quality leadership, which is notabout just what can I gain?
But how can I integrate withinmyself and how can I lead, you
know, For purposes and causesthat are extremely important.
And how can I bring, you know,commercial exchange as part of
that and how that can be a forceof good in the world.
Teri Schmidt (29:40):
Yeah.
So if there is a listener outthere who's thinking, you know,
this, this sounds great, and I,I want to get there.
I want to start on the journeyto be a more contemplative
leader.
What, would you suggest?
How should they get started?
And I'm asking you for tips andtricks, so it's kind of ironic.
(30:01):
but,
Patrick Boland (30:02):
I have a kind of slow to say, okay, well, well,
you have to start somewhere.
You do have to start somewhere.
Long term change that is healthyand helpful and that sticks and
that has the capacity tocontinue to grow means we need
to do a, a deep dive into who weare and how we bring.
(30:26):
That energy and that focus toevery interaction that we have.
Some of the, like the first twothirds of my book, I mean, this
is the focus of it, so I mightas well speak to it, is moving
from our cognitiveunderstandings of ourself, the
narratives that we have, beingopen to question, or what are
the narratives that I havewhat's my story?
(30:49):
What do I tell myself?
What's my self talk made up of?
How does that fit into ourstory?
So, the narratives of those inmy society, in my community, and
the other narratives of thosewith whom I don't really
interact or, or even understandor know their stories very well.
And then, how does that interactwith me?
The story you know, the, themuch bigger picture of, you
know, the cosmos the universein, in which we live on this
(31:11):
tiny blue planet.
So there's pieces aroundnarratives.
And then I think moving from thecognitive then into, into the
pre conscious and then into thesubconscious is really
important.
And again, I've got.
I do it sequentially in thebook, looking at what are the
values that I have?
And I've interviewed with theCEO, the former CEO now of Ben
(31:32):
and Jerry's ice cream, talkingabout, you know, values for him
and things that influenced himgrowing up.
And then identities, this is acrucial part of our ego to think
of what are all the identitiesthat I've built up built up
over, over time.
And an identity is, you know,I'm known as like a high
performance leader.
I'm known as.
As a parent, as a daughter, as aspouse, as a friend, you know,
(31:55):
there's all these differentidentities and it's really
important psychologically thatwe build these up particularly
during the first half of life toreference Richard Rohr and Carl
Jung talking about the morningof life.
And then it's really appropriateand really important that we let
it go and we get out of the way.
And we realized that building upour ego.
(32:17):
Helps us establish herself inthe world.
Helps us to be known forsomething because it's what
society and family and cultureand friends say, you have to be
this in order to be okay, to besuccessful, to be acceptable,
whatever it is.
And then we get to the pointwhere we go, well, let's have a
look at these identities.
Are they all serving me now?
Maybe, I mean, I've worked withpeople who are in their fifties
(32:39):
and sixties.
Selling their companies, verysuccessful leaders.
And when we get down to brasstacks there, they're really
talking about, I've done thisfor a parent.
I've done this out of areaction.
This is an identity that I tookon.
It's made me monetarily very,very well off.
And I have a lot of influenceand I have a lot of social
(32:59):
kudos.
But I'm not necessarily veryhappy about it.
And I've led people in a certainway for, for a long time, and
maybe I'd like to make a changenow.
So there's an opportunity to, toto peel back the mask and the
masks and to look at what'sbeneath it and then to move from
the full self, which is this,this term from Thomas Merton and
our ego is our full self.
(33:21):
All the things we're known for.
To move from that into our trueself.
Who we are deep down.
And then I think a big journeyfor us all and a very difficult
and challenging journey is toSee the true self and to get to
the bottom of ourselves.
Some people call it the soul orthe, you know, the face we had
before we were born or whateverour philosophy or religion call
(33:42):
it.
And to realize that we're alwaysgoing to be leading.
We're always going to beinteracting with others from
this, from this place of kind ofa mixture of our false self.
And our true self, you know,this is, we're not going to
bring a dualistic approach tobeing non dualistic.
That wouldn't make sense.
But how can we allow more of whowe really are into each moment
(34:04):
and to each interaction?
And that takes courage.
Personally, I find that veryscary.
I was only saying it to a clientyesterday when we were having
like a, an honest conversationabout letting people see more of
who you are over time can bereally difficult.
But it can be really importantas we get to the bottom of
ourselves and as we get to thebottom of our leadership and why
(34:25):
we do what we do.
To kind of, to jump, but not toomuch of a tangent, Terry.
Like, you know, there's afantastic book, the, the five
wishes of the dying, I think itwas called.
And one, one of the wishes forall the men that this lady had
worked with, this nurse hadworked with was, I wish I hadn't
worked as hard.
I wish I'd been there with mykids when they were growing up
(34:47):
for others.
The wish was I wish I'd beencourageous enough to be myself
and let other people see that.
Teri Schmidt (34:56):
Mmhmmm.
Patrick Boland (34:56):
And when I see organizations and teams and
systems and families where youhave a person who has that
courage, who's done the work, itis unbelievably powerful.
The impact that that has onothers, the role modeling that
it has.
The mentoring that it has, thepermission that it gives to
other people to do the same, thenew narratives that it brings to
(35:20):
that system, it's, it'sprofound.
And I, you know, as I lookaround You know, from families
to organizations, a lot of thetime, it's just a lot of people
pretending to be, I'm thisperfect, great leader, this
perfect, great parent, thisperfect, great, whatever.
And we're projecting theseimages out.
And I think what our world needsis people to be vulnerable, to
(35:41):
be fallible to be honest.
It's touching on some of thework of Amy Edmondson and, you
know, psychological safety andhow do we work together really
well.
But I think we, we need that andbeing non attached and going on
that journey to become nonattached and acknowledging I
can't control everything.
It's a very courageous act.
But then it has such hugepotential upsides for the
(36:03):
relationships of the people wework with so that we can move
from transactional styleinteractions to transformational
interactions, where we feeldeeply seen and known.
And we're like, I'm going tofollow this person.
I want to be part of this team.
I want to build something.
I want to sell something that'sbeautiful, that's meaningful,
that's important and thatcontributes.
There's an energy about that.
(36:25):
And there's something.
deeply impactful, much more thanearning a few extra million and
getting an extra title.
Teri Schmidt (36:33):
Wholeheartedly agree and, you know, and a
little while back when you weretalking about, like, were they
causes that can be worked for?
I think Right there is, is aworthy cause.
You know that that impact thatwhen you do this work and you
have that ripple effect on, onthose around you, that that
(36:54):
ripple doesn't stop.
That's affecting people in theirhome lives and their families,
which flows out to theircommunities.
That it can make leading in a.
business that you might thinkmight not have, you know, a
great impact on the world.
You know, maybe you're making, Idon't know, furniture or
(37:15):
something but just the way thatyou lead, regardless of what the
product is, can have such atransformational effect.
Patrick Boland (37:25):
Such a huge effect.
You've reminded me, Terry, ofsomething I've never said in
public before, but I feel it'sappropriate to say it to you
now.
As a teenager, I was, I had ayear of deep depression, like
really, really stark and reallydeep because all my success
narratives were falling apart.
been you know a student topathlete in different sports and
(37:48):
music.
I was ticking all the boxes ofwhat was expected of me and it
all kind of fell apart and myhealth fell apart.
And Coming through thatexperience, that was my first
deconstruction coming throughthat experience.
I remember taking the vow when Iwas 17 years of age and I didn't
have the language for it at thetime, but I remember saying, I
think the best thing I can do inmy life is to do my work.
(38:10):
so that I don't pass on thispain and these narratives to
others.
Or if I'm ever married, or if Iever have kids I think this
would be the best thing.
And that's in some ways how Ieventually ended up doing this,
this work that I hadn'toriginally intended to do.
It kind of came knocking for me.
And I mean, that'sintergenerational trauma, right
(38:32):
there.
That's, that's dealing with it,breaking cycles, breaking
patterns.
It's laying down really healthypatterns for others and it's,
it's so profound wherever ittakes place, families, teams,
workplaces.
Teri Schmidt (38:45):
That's beautiful.
Thank you for sharing that.
And, and to think that you werethere at 17 realizing that it
was a priority to do your workso that those ripples were
positive ripples that you werespreading.
That's, that's prettyincredible.
Yeah.
(39:07):
I think we all have a lifelongworth of work you know, and, and
speaking about back to yourbook, I, I showed you how it is
so marked up my copy of it.
And I am continuing to, youknow, kind of revisit some of
the exercises that, that you putin there because they are so
helpful and we are the beginningof the work to becoming a
(39:27):
contemplative leader.
So I thank you for putting thisinto the world.
I would love to hear, what isyour hope for this book?
Patrick Boland (39:40):
It's a funny one.
When you write a book aboutbeing non attached, the
discipline is how can I be nonattached about it?
That, my favorite band is U2.
It's almost a cliche coming fromdown the road from in Dublin,
but they are my favorite bandand they have a lovely song
called Get Out of Your Own Way.
(40:00):
So my hope is that I would getout of the way of the content of
the book and not force it to bea thing and trust that whatever
it's going to do, it's going todo.
And that'll be a very positivething.
(40:23):
There's another part of me thatgoes, I hope that lots of
leaders who are ready, and whoare self aware, and who care
about consciousness withinthemselves, And within systems
within teams, within wholeorganizations, leaders from the
(40:43):
corporate world, leaders fromnot for profit, leaders who are
involved in politics.
My hope is that they would pickit up.
That there'd be something thatwould speak to them, that it
would be just a small piece forthem as, as they continue on
their their journey.
They will be drawn into deeperways of seeing and being, I have
(41:07):
a desire to include andtranscend being in control and
go, right, there's a, there aremoments and there is
appropriateness of this andknowing what I want, but also
you know, to, to talk about theparadoxical theory of change, if
we insist on how and when changetakes place, we stop changing
what's happening.
(41:29):
we don't insist on that, if weget out of the way of it, we
create the conditions for changeto take place.
And so I love leaders andinfluencers.
I talk about it in the book.
A leader these days, it's aninfluencer.
It's someone who has influencewherever.
It's not a positional roleanymore.
I'd love influencers to beleaders.
To use it and to be open to itand help them to continue on and
(41:52):
doing their work and then tobring that.
And then other great things intotheir life.
And how exactly that looks andwhen I'm, I'm not gonna try and
predict it or, or say it has tobe a certain way.
Without a
Teri Schmidt (42:07):
both the non attached and and maybe a little
bit more attached to answerthere.
It shows that it is a continualjourney.
To operate from a non attachedplace.
So thank you for that.
And I have one more questionthat we ask all of our guests
because the title of the podcastis strong leaders serve.
(42:28):
I'd love to hear what strongleaders serve means to you.
Patrick Boland (42:33):
Yeah.
I love the question.
I'll answer it in, in the frameof spiral dynamics, which I
wrote about in the last chapterof the book when I think about
service and I think about why weserve, I think a really healthy
way of serving is because wedon't need to, we don't, We
don't need to do it for selfishreasons to feel good about
(42:54):
ourselves, to have our name inlights or to be seen to be that,
that kind of a person, that kindof leader.
We've moved through differentparts of our ego.
We want to be seen as this.
We want to be excellent at that.
And essentially there's a,there's a low ego within ourself
that we're We're content, we'recomfortable in our skin, and we
desire to contribute to thewhole.
(43:16):
And a part of that is just avery natural overflowing of, I'm
going to give of myself, I'mgoing to encourage others, I'm
going to motivate others.
Part of serving, I think, issometimes being very assertive
and having very healthy,boundaried conversations.
Stopping bullying behaviours.
Net naming things that areunhealthy within the wider
system.
So when I think of strongleaders serve, I think it takes
(43:36):
a lot of strength to do ourwork, to be able to serve from
that place, that low ego place,with strength.
And be deeply confident in thatand to be courageous in that,
you know, you know, theetymology of courage to act with
heart, to be able to do that.
Without controlling and withoutforcing.
(43:59):
I think that's, it's a verydifficult dance and there's a,
there's always more steps tolearn.
But I think when, when I've seenit happen, there's just such a
deep strength and such a hugeimpact.
And I personally get inspired.
So that, that's to me is thatstrong.
And that's, that's real service.
Teri Schmidt (44:20):
again, very well said, and I said last question,
but I, I would love to hear alittle bit more about, you said
when I've seen it happen, it, itis so impactful, um, can you
give a little bit more detailabout that?
Because again, because we havethe narrative, because we have,
you know, our body workingagainst us people might want to
(44:42):
hear about.
What's the difference?
You know, what's it, what's thedifference if I serve from a
place of wanting to show that Iadhere to particular principles
or I'm doing what my parentstold me or I want other people
to think that I'm good?
What's the difference betweenthat and serving from a place
(45:02):
where you are not attached?
In terms of the outcome.
Which again is a machinist.
Patrick Boland (45:12):
That's the only thing wrong with it.
It's a helpful metaphor for atime.
The outcome can look similar onthe surface, But beneath the
surface, it feels verydifferent.
Let me answer by, by telling ashort story of someone I worked
with for a few years.
She, she was shut out.
Quite a large role in ainternational bank and I coached
(45:33):
her for Three years, and then Iworked with her team as well.
It was so fascinating to seeher.
She threw herself in to, to thisprocess.
And she, you know, we weretalking about deconstructing all
the narratives from family.
Why was she in the bank?
Why did she have this role?
She was able to talk about herfears, her insecurities, her
(45:55):
doubts.
There were, there were weeks andmonths where I'm going to leave
I'm going to leave corporatelife completely.
I'm going to go.
And then she bends back and thenshe go, I actually think there's
so much of me here and there'sso much that I have to give
here.
And I, you know, I'm not yourtypical person within this
system.
So she worked through so much ofthat.
And then, As a result of that,and then working with her team,
(46:16):
and we did big exercises ontrust with the team and
difficult conversations, and wehad conflict, we had, we had two
members in the team who hadn'tspoken to each other since
literally there'd been a fistfight in a bar three years
earlier, like the kind of stuffyou just can't script, like
that's what showed up in theroom and going through that
process, seeing this phenomenalleader, just Deepen and grow in
(46:39):
her confidence, seeing her makedecisions and not second guess
herself, seeing her at onepoint, let somebody go from the
team who was.
Very unhelpful and she'd beenreticent to do that in the past,
but seeing how she went about itand seeing the conversation she
had and seeing the respect thatwas there as well as, as anger,
(47:02):
which is very normal.
Then seeing the respect from theother team members that she had
actually, you know, made adifficult decision.
And I'd come from a place beforeshe was so human about it.
So saying, look, I don't likethis.
I don't enjoy this.
I don't want to be doing this.
Okay.
But I'm going to do it because Isee the benefit to the team and
that was service right there,the way she moved in and had the
(47:24):
one to one conversations thatwere just great.
Entirely focused on the peoplethat she was talking to.
So completely different type ofone to one conversation,
depending on where they were at,what they needed, seeking to
empower them to the thing thatthey cared of.
She had coders on the team.
So seeking to findopportunities.
She had people who werechallengers on the team.
So kind of going, I need you totake that energy and I need you
(47:45):
to challenge some of the fringesof what we're doing here and
empowering them.
She was delegating to people.
What happened was over time.
Her actual job became a littleless stressful because she was
able to delegate.
She was able to empower toothers.
And she had more time to, to tofocus on what is important.
What direction are we going in?
She was able to, she's now anexecutive, but she was able to
(48:06):
essentially move into anexecutive role of getting out of
the weeds, getting into thebigger picture and understanding
What is it I'm doing and why andhow do I want to support people
and how do I not just have aplan for them?
How do I listen to them and talkto them?
And how do we develop the teamover a number of years?
So seeing her grow was, was oneof the huge privileges of the
(48:30):
last, the last five or six yearsof my work.
And the impact that it had on asystemic level with the
individuals and with the teamwithin the organization.
The whole culture and how itstood out as a very different
culture and started to kind ofprod at the dominant culture
within that financialinstitution where people started
to take notice and go, what isthat?
As Meg Wheatley, a mentor ofmine says, you know, there's an
(48:53):
island of sanity that we cancreate and we can light little
fires within the system.
And these can be little ideasfor people to go.
That's possible.
And then people start to movefrom idea into a lived
experience of it and go, What ifthat became the norm around
(49:14):
here?
If our system looked like that?
What a place to work.
What a place to be.
What a place in which tocontribute.
So seeing that happen, to me,that was like ultimate service.
And she did her work and it wasreally difficult for the first
couple of years.
And her individual coaching wasreally difficult.
And then she did it.
It was beautiful.
Teri Schmidt (49:30):
that's a great illustration.
I think the fact that she couldhave done all of that, she could
have had difficult conversationswithout doing the inner work,
but would it have lit that fire,like you said, that had the more
systemic impact on everyoneelse?
Probably not.
It probably would have been muchmore isolated, a one time thing.
(49:51):
It might have been laced in thesense with stress and, you know,
discomfort for people more sothan it was when she had done
that in her work and, and it didhave that impact of helping
others to thrive in the way thatit was done.
Patrick Boland (50:08):
Thank you.
You've answered that part of thequestion that I totally ignored.
So thank you.
Teri Schmidt (50:12):
Oh, no, no, you, you illustrated it.
And I just wanted to reflectback how, how it landed on me
and, and make sure that it wasaligned with your experience.
Well, Patrick I've, I've.
thoroughly enjoyed thisconversation and am very
appreciative of your time.
I will have, of course, the linkto your book and your website in
(50:34):
the show notes, but if there'ssomeone out there who would like
to learn more beyond buying thebook or would like to, to follow
your work, is there anywhereelse that you would like us to
direct them to?
Mm
Patrick Boland (50:47):
yes.
So the, the book has his websitewith its online course and, and
master classes as well, and thenthere's my company's website, so
that's connexus.
ie.
So you can direct people thereif they're interested in, in
thinking of some of the biggerissues as well, beyond just the
Teri Schmidt (51:03):
Mm hmm..
Excellent.
Well, thank you again for yourtime today.
Patrick Boland (51:08):
My pleasure to really enjoy the conversation
and great to be with you here.
Teri Schmidt (51:14):
Be sure to check out Patrick's book, The
Contemplative Leader, and evenbetter, his free masterclass and
his online course that walks youthrough the exercises in his
book.
You can find all those links inthe show notes.
And until next time, lead withthis quote by Patrick in mind.
Over time, as we dedicateourselves to exploring and
(51:37):
taking responsibility for ourwhole self, our internal world
becomes mirrored in our externalworld.
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