February 19, 2025 • 43 mins
Do you feel stuck in your efforts to make positive changes in your leadership? Your brain's drive to save energy may be to blame.
Join Teri Schmidt and Ursula Pottinga as they discuss how your brain can get in the way of change and what to do about it.
Resources:
Looking for a community of leaders where you can tackle real challenges, share wins, and grow together—without office politics getting in the way? Join Leadership Thought Partners, a coach-led, group-directed space launching in July—early bird pricing ends May 31, 2025 at strongleadersserve.com/ltp!
Connect on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/teri-m-schmidt/
Get 1-on-1 leadership support from Teri here: https://www.strongleadersserve.com/coaching
Set up an intro call with Teri: https://calendly.com/terischmidt/discoverycall
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Microphone (Wireless Microp (00:52):
Are you a leader who started out
this year wanting to leaddifferently?
Did you have resolutions for howyou'd make changes or establish
new habits that would help youdeal with the never ending
workload that you face as acompassionate, driven leader?
And now we're halfway throughFebruary and you're frustrated?
You're not alone.
In fact, I'm right there withyou.
(01:14):
As it turns out, there are waysin which our brains actually get
in the way of us making positivechanges.
So I invited Ursula Pottinga, anexpert in neuroscience and
coaching, to discuss why thishappens and what we can do about
it.
Ursula is a certified coach withmore than 20 years of experience
(01:34):
living and working in Europe,Canada, Asia, and the U.
S.
The co founder of Be AboveLeadership and the co designer
of its groundbreaking advancedcoaching programs and webinars.
She's a skillful workshop leaderand mentor she is also a
certified relational trauma andneuroscience coach to bring
about change and healing inorganizations that have been
(01:56):
impacted by relational trauma.
She speaks internationally andhas co authored a number of
books.
So she's definitely qualified tohave this conversation with me.
Speaking of introductions, ifyou don't know me, I'm Terri
Schmitt, Executive andLeadership Coach at Strong
Leaders Serve, where we partnerwith compassionate, driven
(02:16):
leaders to transform potentialinto And this is the Strong
Leaders Serve podcast.
teri-schmidt_1_02-03-20 (02:27):
Welcome to the Strong Leaders Serve
podcast, Ursula.
I'm so looking forward to ourconversation today.
ursula_1_02-03-2025_150216 (02:34):
Yes, likewise.
Then thank you for having me.
I'm always interested andexcited about talking about
leaders and how they can servebetter and also for their own,
you know, their own growth anddevelopment,
teri-schmidt_1_02-03-2025_ (02:48):
Yes, definitely.
And when we can talk aboutneuroscience on top of all that,
I
ursula_1_02-03-2025_150216 (02:53):
it's a bonus.
teri-schmidt_1_02-03-2025_ (02:54):
even more exciting,
ursula_1_02-03-2025_15021 (02:55):
Yeah, definitely.
Hmm.
teri-schmidt_1_02-03-2025_14 (03:00):
we talked a little bit about it,
but you know, I was one of thosecompassionate driven leaders
that I primarily partner withnow.
And I, you know, wanted to doeverything on my own and, and
read all the books and improveall the time.
And then I had one opportunityto sit down with a coach.
And I could not figure out whythe change happened so quickly
(03:24):
after that.
And then after having thepleasure of getting to have you
in my UTD program and learn alittle bit more about how our
brain works, and then do alittle bit research myself.
It really is fascinating how thebrain can sometimes get in our
way when we want to makepositive changes, and it can
(03:44):
also help us, but I'd love to,you know, dig in today a little
bit about we may not even beaware of how it can get in our
way.
And how sometimes having thattrusted partner, whether that be
a coach or someone else to talkto can, can help us to uh, get
around that in a sense.
ursula_1_02-03-2025_15021 (04:05):
Yeah, no, absolutely.
teri-schmidt_1_02-03-2025_1 (04:07):
I'd love to start with you in terms
of, you know, what firstinspired you to study the
intersection of neuroscience andcoaching?
ursula_1_02-03-2025_150216 (04:16):
I is such a great question and I was
reflecting back on that.
So as you know, I have awonderful business partner and
and you know, we've beenpartners for 22 years and have
always been a really fascinatedand interested about
consciousness is.
And so for many years we, youknow, studied the work of Dr.
(04:40):
David Hawkins, the map ofconsciousness.
We, we read and studied otherthought leaders.
And then at one point it wasactually Anne who called me and
said, you know in terms ofcoaching and consciousness, she
said, there has to be aconnection here somewhere.
And I think the doorway to thatconnection is through
(05:03):
neuroscience.
And so she somewhat tentativelyshared with me that she was
thinking of enrolling in theNeural Leadership Institute.
And it was, it was very sweetand it was very funny.
She said, well, you know, I'mreally thinking about that, but
I don't know how you feel aboutit.
(05:23):
And so my first reaction was,you go right ahead with that.
That's not how my brain works.
That is not something I don'tthink I can ever do.
And so she said, Okay, she said,Would you mind then if I do
that?
I said, No, absolutely.
You go ahead.
I mean, that's really your deal.
(05:45):
Well, she enrolled and lo andbehold, First session with
Neuroleadership Institute, shecalled me back and said, You
know, you have no idea what wetalked about today,
Neuroleadership Institute.
You know, it was aboutneuroplasticity and here's how
the brain works and how it linksto coaching.
And so we would have theseongoing conversations.
(06:09):
And every time she would call mewith yet another insight about
the brain, I would say, Oh, Ican feel a coaching tool coming
on.
And so, I got sort of somewhatinspired and in a way sucked in,
really, by the novelty and the,the interest and the
(06:31):
fascination.
The more we talked about it, themore I realized there was really
such a deep connection that wasSuper valuable for coaches, for
our clients, for leaders, formyself that needed to be
explored.
And so, you know, a year later,she and I enrolled in a program
(06:52):
that Dr Dan Siegel had for ayear.
And basically I was I wascommitted.
I was in love with the science.
And you know, from then we justkept adding.
to our own development in termsof study and reading.
And then we created, you know,our advanced coaching program.
(07:14):
So it was really herinspiration.
And then what she shared with mein terms of neuroscience made so
much sense.
And there were so many lightbulb moments for me personally.
I suddenly understood myself.
So much better, and I thought weneed to share this in a way
(07:35):
that's useful and so Here we are17 years later, and I can't
imagine life withoutneuroscience Yeah,
teri-schmidt_1_02-03-2025_1 (07:50):
and story.
You know, the fact that you werepretty hesitant at the beginning
ursula_1_02-03-2025_150216 (07:55):
I was I was adamant
teri-schmidt_1_02-03-2025_14 (07:57):
me to believe, but that is That is
so, so funny.
I think so many things in lifesometimes happen that way,
whether that be, you know, a, aspousal relationship or
something else at first, itmight be the person we don't
want to with that we end up, youknow, spending our lives with,
ursula_1_02-03-2025_15021 (08:15):
Yeah.
No.
Yeah, absolutely.
And it's a it's interesting.
This story also really connectsto neuroplasticity because
basically what I was saying toend is I don't have any neural
pathways in my brain as itrelates to science.
In school, I was a linguist, solanguages was my deal, you know,
(08:36):
science, social science,geography, you know, all of that
and languages, but that is whatI loved.
And so my response was really abrain response.
It's like, I don't have anyneural plasticity and neural
pathways there.
And therefore.
It feels really uncomfortableeven thinking about it.
(08:58):
And this uncomfortable notion isreally about brain wiring and
neural pathways.
And then, of course, the more wetalked about neuroscience and
the more we developed our tools,the more neural connections I
had in my brain that then reallymade this journey just a little
(09:19):
bit easier.
Thank you.
And then with practice, itbecame better and better and
more fluid and easier.
But the first, the first year,first year and a half, the first
two years, there were astruggle.
I struggled.
I mean, I really did withunderstanding it, making sense
of it, remembering it all thetechnical terms.
(09:42):
But then, you know, you, you,you do this.
Day in day out and then overtime it begins to be so obvious,
teri-schmidt_1_02-03-2025 (09:49):
Yeah.
ursula_1_02-03-2025_15021 (09:50):
Which is not obvious to begin with.
teri-schmidt_1_02-03-2025 (09:53):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And that becoming obvious, arethose new neural pathways, you
know, getting
ursula_1_02-03-2025_15021 (09:59):
Yeah.
absolutely.
teri-schmidt_1_02-03- (10:00):
excellent point.
Yeah.
Thank you for calling that out.
And it's a great jumping offpoint, too.
I mentioned to you when we weretalking before we hit record
that the leaders I work with Icall compassionate driven
leaders because they care asdeeply about the people that
they work with and ensuring thatthey also can become leaders
(10:23):
themselves.
ursula_1_02-03-2025_150216 (10:24):
hmm.
teri-schmidt_1_02-03-2025_14 (10:24):
As they do about the business
results that they are aimingfor.
So, I think sometimes when youhear a compassionate leaders,
you think they aren't driven bybusiness results and vice versa.
But those that I work with arereally about both of those
together, which can bring upsome unique challenges.
but that driven piece, you know,because they have that drive,
(10:47):
they're, they're usually verysuccessful on their own.
But sometimes, like I mentionedat the beginning, they struggle
to change something that theywant to change.
So, I'd love if you could kindof build in on what you were
just talking about in neuralpathways maybe.
Talk about what needs to happenin the brain for someone to make
(11:09):
a change.
ursula_1_02-03-2025_150216 (11:09):
Oh, it's such a great question.
And just like you, I, you know,work with the same kind of
clientele.
Definitely driven, definitelyvery empathetic.
And I think what I see in thisparticularly, there's a sort of
a couple of you know.
Faces and names that are comingto me as I'm talking that
(11:32):
drivenness has created already aneural pathway.
So something that we do a lotand we repeat again and again
and again becomes a very strongneural wiring.
And if that habit is a habitthat proves to be effective and
serves the individual as well asthe people they are working
(11:56):
with, If this is an effectiveneural pathway, then we can
really say, Okay, this is good.
I can let my brain travel alongthat superhighway.
But when we find that there arehabits and actions and thoughts
that we have created over longperiods of time that feel like a
(12:19):
struggle, they don't, it doesn'tfeel like they serve us anymore.
Then changing that is a problembecause it's the same
superhighway and the way thebrain works is it's trying to
conserve energy.
So the brain runs on glucose andbecause of that is sort of
(12:39):
somewhat lazy.
It's trying to conserve energy.
So it uses the thickest neuralconnection that there is in the
brain because it then Really,it's faster firing.
I mean, it's a little bit like,you know, an electricity cord
that you have in your house.
(12:59):
The thicker the cord, the fasterthe firing to the lamp, to the,
you know, whatever it is.
And then the skinnier cords, thefiring there, it takes, it takes
a lot longer.
So the metaphor of thesuperhighway are those neural
pathways that we have used foroften years.
(13:22):
And then the dirt road, as Icall them, are the new habits
we're trying to create.
And they're bumpy, you know,they're full of potholes and
they're full of rocks and stonesand obstacles.
And so that metaphor of the dirtroad and the superhighway fits
perfectly.
with neuroplasticity.
(13:43):
So anything that you have donefor long periods of time that
feels comfortable is our comfortzone.
Those habits are really hard tochange because you have start
to, you basically start to builda dirt road that takes a lot of
intention and attention.
And so that is what the brain isthen struggling with is putting
(14:08):
that energy.
to those harder accessibleroads.
And so tiredness, stress, thosehave an impact on whether we're
using the superhighway orwhether we're using our energy
to travel along that dirt road.
So anything new that you want tocreate and change will be that
(14:31):
proverbial metaphorical dirtroad.
And I think it helps tounderstand that it is a dirt
road and therefore it is justharder.
It's just harder to travel alongthat path and giving yourself
permission to be patient, tomake mistakes.
To sometimes slide back to theold habits again because that
(14:54):
superhighway is super strong Canhelp us feel more comfortable
with the uncomfortableness of of
teri-schmidt_1_02-03-2025_140 (15:05):
I love the, the dirt road analogy
because it, it makes it so easyto, to think about and what you
said too about, anytime we'reunder stress or, you know,
whether that be, affecting usemotionally or physically it's
That we're likely to go back tothat, that superhighway and You
(15:28):
know, two topics that we'redealing with on the podcast for
a little bit now for severalepisodes are two challenges that
I see in a lot of my clients.
And that is workload, you know,the intense workload and a sense
of disconnection, whether thatbe from other people or from the
mission of the organizationthey're working with.
(15:49):
And I can see those twochallenges really driving even
the.
Best, you know, most wellintentioned leader back to the
superhighways that maybe theywould like to get off
ursula_1_02-03-2025_15021 (16:03):
Yeah, absolutely.
Because the, the, the workload,the inability or the there's
less time to reflect.
There's less time to sort ofrelax.
There's less time to ponder.
All of that intense focus takesa lot of energy.
(16:25):
And so doing something new, it'salmost like the resources have
been used.
For workload and there isn'tenough of a resource in the
brain and in the body that'sleft for change and really sort
of moving along this, this, thisbumpy road.
Now there are seven key factorsto neuroplasticity and I want to
(16:49):
sort of touch lightly on thosebecause I think they're also
will address a little bit theconnection and the workload
challenge.
Thank you.
So the seven key factors arethings like, for example,
novelty.
Novelty, that when something isnew, it really creates
excitement in the brain.
(17:10):
It's also rewarding to thebrain.
So anytime we do somethingthat's new, yeah, it's
challenging.
But the excitement and thereward will also help us create
those new neural connections.
So novelty in terms of change isimportant.
If the brain is not interestedin things that are boring, it
(17:30):
loses attention.
And so when you're thinkingabout wanting to change a habit,
you have to, you have to try andfigure out how can we do it in a
way that's novel, that'sinteresting.
teri-schmidt_1_02-03-2025_14 (17:44):
Mm
ursula_1_02-03-2025_150216 (17:44):
The other thing, and this is in
relationship to connection, oneof the biggest key factors, an
important one toneuroplasticity, is
relationship.
So when we are in relationship,it is easier for us to make a
change.
And I think that is wherecoaching comes in.
A coach is such a good advocate,a sounding board, an
(18:08):
accountability body, you know,there's a safe space of also
sharing our emotional struggleswith that person, and all of
that will really help with the,with the, the neuroscience load
on the brain and will help ussort of offload that a little
bit.
To someone who can can supportus and help us.
(18:32):
So relationship is, is really,really important.
We do better as human beingswhen we're connected, not only
in relationship to change, butgenerally.
So there's novelty.
There's relationship and thenthe other one is making mistakes
is one of the key factors.
So that's actually a little bitI think of a cultural twist
(18:56):
because we think making mistakeis a bad thing.
Well, you know that when you arenot sure about something or when
you are making a mistake, itgives you the signal that your
brain is really traveling alongthis dirt road.
It's not your comfort zone.
It's not the, you know, you dowhat you always have done.
(19:19):
And so making mistakes helps thebrain prune, cut off certain
pathways that might lead us inthe wrong direction and help us
really stick with the road athand.
And again, I think that is wherecoaching comes in because a
coach can really help us withthe question of saying, okay,
(19:44):
How did that work and whatdidn't work and what did work?
Because if you don't have that,then we might be doing something
wrong again and again and againand again.
And before we know, we'vecreated a new neural pathway,
but it's the wrong, it's thewrong pathway, right?
And it's like, okay, why did Ido this?
(20:04):
Why did I do this?
Now I have to reverse courseand, you know, go in the wrong
direction.
So it can, again, relationship.
Making mistakes that can reallybe helpful in terms of, you
know, reflection and action andshifting when we need to shift
and move.
So if you are a leader and youare wanting to change something,
(20:27):
find an advocate.
If you don't have a coach, find,find a buddy, find an advocate,
find someone that's a goodsounding board, that's a good
person to brainstorm.
That's that you can check inwith and saying, this is how I
think about this.
Am I right?
What are you seeing?
Because that will help yourbrain create the pathway in the
(20:49):
right direction rather than, youknow, you having to create a
detour and go like, oops,
teri-schmidt_1_02-03-202 (20:55):
Right,
ursula_1_02-03-2025_15021 (20:55):
oops, wrong way.
teri-schmidt_1_02-03-2025_ (20:57):
Yeah and not only wrong way one time
actually creating like you saidthat new neural pathway.
ursula_1_02-03-2025_15 (21:03):
Exactly, again and again and again.
And then another key factor isactually rest.
So I think this is where workoverload comes in.
If our brain doesn't get achance to rest and relax and
(21:23):
activate the default modenetwork, which is the network in
the brain that helps us dream,we're going to ponder.
Go to the past, go to thefuture.
It's sort of permission to bedistracted kind of brain.
Very different from the taskpositive network, the other
network that helps us to bevery, very present in the moment
(21:46):
and very, very focused on tasks.
So, as a leader, if you aredoing, doing, doing, doing,
doing, focus, focus, focus,focus, And you don't give your
brain a little bit of defaultmode network time.
Over time, you will lose acertain amount of inspiration
(22:07):
and motivation.
And also creativity.
Because the default mode tapsinto this relaxed state.
That, for example, we have whenwe're in the shower.
And we don't need to focus onanything.
You know, we, there's nothingneeded when we're in the shower.
We can just relax and enjoy.
And I don't know about you, butI have, I have the best ideas
(22:31):
when I'm in the shower becauseI'm not trying to figure it out
as I'm sitting in front of mycomputer or the desk.
So if you're overloaded in termsof workload and you don't give
your brain time to relax andponder and dream, you are going
to lose capacity.
(22:51):
And so I think that speaks to,you know, work overload.
Even if you only take 10minutes, get up, go for a walk,
let your mind wander.
Don't go back to your to dolist.
Just dream.
Look at the trees, the sky, takein the natural environment.
All of that will help your brainrelax.
(23:12):
And I guarantee you, as soon asyou come back to the office or
your computer, whatever it is,the idea that you've been
looking for is probably going toemerge through.
That relaxed state of brain.
So the drive to do, do, do, do.
It has its limits.
(23:32):
Your brain has a limitedcapacity to focus.
And when it's done, it actuallyis done.
We need to give it anopportunity to, to have that
space more intentionally,that's, I think is the most
important part of this wholenetwork scenario.
teri-schmidt_1_02-03-2025 (23:53):
Yeah, that you, that was the word I
was going to use after listeningto you that being intentional
about it and, you know, having alittle bit more, well, I would
say control, but, you know, justintention around, you know, when
you give your brain that restthat you need, like you said,
(24:14):
um, to be the most effectiveleader that you can be.
And then, you know, I just thinkabout those overloaded.
Leaders out there who arelistening and who are thinking,
you know, that's okay.
I can, you know, if I just tryharder, I can, I can figure this
out.
And, you know, I think what yousaid about creating those wrong
(24:36):
dirt roads, those wrong branchesand off, because you don't have
someone to reflect with, youdon't have the opportunity to
Have someone who's skilled andasking you questions that might
surface why that is the wrongroad and might help you get, you
(24:56):
know, back on that dirt roadthat you want to turn into a
super highway.
And so it's almost like a catch22 because you think you're so
busy, you don't have time tospend that time reflecting.
And, and that's another reason,you know, I advocate for
coaching so much.
It's an intentional time thatcan accelerate.
Those realizations and thosereflections, especially when
(25:20):
you're with someone who isskilled and knows how to access
that and help you reflect.
ursula_1_02-03-2025_150216 (25:25):
No, absolutely.
It's a sort of an interestingthing.
You're absolutely right.
We think, Oh, I can figure thisout.
I just need to do one morething.
I can do this one more thing.
Well, you probably can't and youare better served to stop just
when you think I just gotnothing left and you think you
can do one more thing.
(25:47):
My advice to you would be whenyou feel that you've come to
your limit, stop and take abreak.
Take a rest.
Do something simple.
Many people meditate even 5 10minutes.
That is a restful place.
As I said, going for a walk,journaling, doodling, do, you
(26:08):
know, have coloring pencilssomewhere.
Something that doesn't requirefocused attention.
And that will refresh yourbrain.
It will refresh the energy.
You will make fewer mistakesbecause your brain isn't
overloaded.
You will have more creativityand imagination, which you need
for being also an innovativeleader.
(26:30):
And it's sort of like alwaysfunny to me that, you know,
some, some organizations havethese innovation programs,
right?
And But they don't give thepeople any time for default
mode.
They're just like, let's doinnovation now.
teri-schmidt_1_02-03-2025_14 (26:46):
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
ursula_1_02-03-2025_1502 (26:51):
that's not where innovation comes from.
Innovation comes from notthinking about it.
But sending a little intentionout there and sleeping on it.
And you know, all of that, thatis when the, when the solution
comes.
And I think.
There is a little bit of a mythor a misunderstanding that
working means doing andproductivity.
(27:14):
But your brain has two differentways of working.
One way of working is focusedattention and the other way it
works is by mind wandering anddreaming.
It's two different kinds of workand it still work.
teri-schmidt_1_02-03-2025 (27:30):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I love that.
You know, I don't think, youknow, many people in our culture
would say that that is work to,to dream and let your mind
wander, but that, you know, thebrain proves otherwise.
ursula_1_02-03-2025_150216 (27:42):
Yep.
ursula (27:42):
another one of the key factors, is personal relevance.
We will only change what ispersonally relevant to us.
Everything else is a should.
I should be doing this.
I should be better at that.
(28:03):
But over time, if there isn't astrong motivation, if there
isn't a strong inspiration, ifit's not relevant to you, you
might start, but it will fizzleout eventually.
If it is important to you, youwill make the effort.
You will change it.
(28:23):
You need to find the personalrelevance.
Is it in alignment with yourvalues?
Is it in alignment with yourmission, your vision that you
have for yourself?
And if all that lines up, thenmaking that change happening
will be crucial.
So much easier.
And so if you are supervisingand managing people and you feel
(28:48):
they need to change something,make sure that you have the
personal relevance and valueconversation with them.
Why is it important?
How is it important?
Why is it relevant?
What's the motivation?
Is it in alignment with theirvalues?
When you have that conversation,You will know whether they're
(29:09):
really motivated by this or not.
And if they're not motivated, myguess would be they might start,
but it will never really trulyland.
teri-schmidt_1_02-03-2025_140 (29:21):
I know that our brain is not
necessarily a fan of uncertaintyfor many of the reasons that
you've already talked about, butI'd love to hear more about you
know, What we can do when we aregoing through those periods of
uncertainty, where we don't havethose patterns of behavior to
rely on,
ursula_1_02-03-2025_15021 (29:40):
Yeah,
teri-schmidt_1_02-03-2025_1 (29:41):
and how the brain can get in our
way, but also how we can getaround that.
ursula_1_02-03-2025_150216 (29:46):
No, this is I think so relevant.
In today's world where I thinkthings change faster than we can
possibly keep up with.
And again, it's an interestingin terms of the brain.
So the research of Lisa FeldmanBarrett.
(30:06):
So you might want to just sortof keep a little bit of it.
Sort of note for yourself ifyou're listening to this
podcast.
Her name is Lisa FeltmanBarrett, and her research is
really about how our emotionscreated.
And so she has done someintensive research over many
years with, you know, thousandsand thousands of people, all
(30:29):
peer reviewed.
And what she has come to isreally saying the brain
constructs emotions Based onwhat it can predict.
teri-schmidt_1_02-03-202 (30:43):
Mm-hmm
ursula_1_02-03-2025_150216 (30:43):
the predictions are based on past
experiences, history, context,and the current goal.
And so the brain uses evidencefrom the past to help us with
the prediction for what iscoming next.
And that is literally, eithernext moment, next week or next
(31:05):
year.
So this prediction cycle of,okay, here is how I feel.
This feeling is based onsomething that I've experienced
before.
And now the question is, is thisfeeling and this prediction I
have, what's going to happennext?
Is this helping or not helping?
So what the research shows isthat when we have.
(31:29):
negative predictions aboutsomething that's going to
happen.
That is usually based onsomething that was negative in
the past, because otherwise thebrain wouldn't make that
connection.
And so anytime we don't have aprediction about anything, so
when it's unpredictable, thebrain is literally looking for
(31:51):
something is looking for somedirection is looking.
For some connection that canhelp us emotionally connect to
what's going to come next andchange is unpredictable.
And so it is hugely challengingfor the brain to have no data.
(32:12):
So if you have been, you know,acquired by another company or
there's been mergers or, youknow, you have a new team or a
new boss, but the first reactionof the brain is I have no idea
what to do with it.
I don't know who these peopleare.
I don't know what this is.
I don't know who this person is.
So it sends us into thisemotional tailspin where we
(32:35):
really go down into frustrationand anxiety and worry because
the message of the brain is thisis unpredictable and therefore
it's bad news.
teri-schmidt_1_02-03-202 (32:47):
Mm-hmm
ursula_1_02-03-2025_15 (32:47):
However, if we can put ourselves into
that position again and askourselves, okay, I can't predict
what's going to happen nextbecause there's a new team, a
new boss, whatever it is.
I don't know what's going tohappen with that because that's
outside of my control.
But what can I predict aboutmyself?
teri-schmidt_1_02-03-2025_1 (33:09):
Hmm
ursula_1_02-03-2025_150216 (33:09):
How have I been handling change and
new situations before?
And so then the brain goes backto saying, Oh, When you were in
this organization, there waschange, and here is how you
handled that.
Or, when you moved to adifferent country, there was
change.
Here is how you handled it.
(33:30):
Or whatever it might be, anychange that you have lived
through, the brain will use thatas evidence, as a prediction
factor of saying, you have nocontrol over the uncontrollable,
but what you can lean into, iswhat you can predict about
yourself, that you were strong,that you were capable, that you
(33:53):
were curious, that you wereresilient, that you bounced
back.
Those are all things that we canthen lean into that makes the
unpredictable outsideoccurrences less scary because
there's a prediction in here andin our brain that can help us
navigate uncertain times.
(34:17):
by focusing on the things thatwe simply can't control, which
is outside of us.
But looking in here and saying,you know what?
Yeah, that is unpredictable.
All that.
But here's what I know aboutmyself, about how I handled
uncertainty before.
How did you?
(34:37):
How did you deal with thepandemic?
How did you live through that?
I mean, that's such a bigunpredictable example that we
all have lived through now.
And the brain will tell you whoyou were being, predictably so,
as you were living through thesetwo years and coming out of it.
(34:58):
So it's really building on aninner strength that you have,
that the brain has evidence for.
And so we can start looking forthat internal evidence.
And so the external hurricanethat's out here swirling becomes
(35:20):
less threatening because we'vegot something to hold on to
that's internal.
Does that make sense?
teri-schmidt_1_02-03-2025_14 (35:27):
It does make sense.
And, you know, I think, as youmentioned earlier, the energy
saving nature of the brain, thatgives it, you know, something to
feel like it can predict what'sgoing to happen next on.
And I think Getting back to thereflection, it is, you know, so
much easier sometimes when youcan do that with a trusted
(35:48):
partner as well, as opposed totrying to unearth that data in
yourself and find the themes inthat data so that then your
brain can use it to predict.
I just, you know, a few goodquestions asked of me can help
me do that in about a hundredthof a time as ruminating on it in
my own mind would do.
ursula_1_02-03-2025 (36:09):
Absolutely.
And especially, you know, whenwe are feeling anxious or
frustrated or.
You know, there are someemotions going on.
It is much harder for the brainto find the clarity and the
groundedness and the clarity ofthinking.
So, you know, we need a partnerlike a coach, for example, to
(36:29):
also help us regulate theseemotions so that we can have a
clearer thinking pattern.
And definitely as it relates topredictions, that is not an easy
thing to figure out foryourself.
You need someone who says toyou, so what are you predicting
and how does that feel?
And what can you predict aboutyourself?
(36:51):
What have you lived through thatis much harder to access when
you have to do it on your ownfor sure?
teri-schmidt_1_02-03-2025 (36:57):
Well, this has been a fascinating
conversation, I would love tohear one question we've been
asking all of our guests thisseason, is if you had one piece
of advice for a compassionate,driven leader.
What would that be?
And everyone complains that Ilimit you to one, but I'm going
to do that.
You're
ursula_1_02-03-2025_150216 (37:19):
that I, that I have said, I think
probably the, the biggest,
teri-schmidt_1_02-03-202 (37:24):
cheat.
ursula_1_02-03-2025_150216 (37:28):
Find what is important and relevant
to you, not to what other peopleare telling you, you should be
doing not what your boss says,not, you know, what feels like,
oh, you know, that, that needsto be done, but really find,
find this motivation inside ofyou that is values driven.
(37:49):
You know, for you, because whenyou come from this personal
relevance piece, you will numberone, be more compassionate and
following, you know, a changedpath is going to be easier.
You are also going to inspireothers in much different ways
than they can connect to, youknow, this is important to me
(38:12):
and therefore, you know, I cansign up for that.
You know, what's important tothe team.
So if I have to narrow it downto one thing, it's, you know,
find personal relevance.
And then, you know, I know yousaid one, but I'll give another
one.
Is, I'm going to cheat.
(38:34):
Be patient with yourself.
Be compassionate with yourself.
Change is hard.
It doesn't happen overnight.
Give yourself a break.
Thank you.
Don't be so hard on yourself.
That's not gonna serve you oranyone else.
Be compassionate with yourselfand patient,
teri-schmidt_1_02-03-2025 (38:57):
Well, I'm going to take that advice
myself and I'm sure many of ourlisteners appreciate it
ursula_1_02-03-2025_1 (39:02):
including myself.
I'm talking to myself right now.
And
teri-schmidt_1_02-03-2025_14 (39:10):
if people want to get in touch with
you or learn more about the workthat you do, where is the best
place for them to go?
ursula_1_02-03-2025_150216 (39:18):
two places.
Certainly, if you are a coachand you've listened to that,
then be above leadership.
We have a great website with ourneuroscience and coaching
programs.
If you are a leader I also havea podcast that's on my website
profound growth.
com.
You can also find me on LinkedInand the, the podcast is very
(39:41):
much neuro conversations at theintersection of neuroscience
coaching and systems, becausethe system that you were in also
has a huge impact on how youdeal with this change and, and
everything else.
So profound growth you can reachme through my website there.
So, and thank you so much.
(40:02):
This was lovely conversation.
Appreciate your questions andyour curiosity and definitely
love that you are supporting.
strong leaders that arecompassionate and driven because
it's not an easy thing tointegrate these two different,
those different pieces.
So really appreciate you.
(40:22):
Thank you.
teri-schmidt_1_02-03-2025 (40:23):
Well, thank you.
And thank you for sharing yourwisdom and your experiences as
well.
And I'm sure that many of ourlisteners are going to go follow
you.
And I highly recommend yourpodcast as well.
Had an opportunity to listen andit was fascinating.
ursula_1_02-03-2025_15021 (40:38):
Well, thank you.
Thank you very much.
Take care.
Microphone (Wireless Micr (40:42):
Well, I hope you enjoyed that
conversation, but if you don'tknow already, I'm pretty big on
making sure that your time iswell spent, and that actually
helps you to make positivechanges in your life.
So every episode this season, weare going to end with two
things, a reflection and asuggested action.
So for today, for thereflection, I'd like you to take
(41:05):
a minute to think about a changethat you're currently trying to
make in your leadership journey.
What dirt roads are you tryingto build and what super highways
might be getting in your way?
And as a suggested action, take10 minutes today to engage your
default mode network through anintentional break.
(41:26):
I know it's hard when you're sobusy, but try to take 10 minutes
to either go for a walk, doodle,or simply look out the window
without focusing on any specifictask.
Notice what insights or ideasemerge for you when you give
your brain the space to wander.
Remember, as Ursula shared, yourbrain has two different ways of
working, focused attention andmind wandering.
(41:47):
And both are valuable forms ofwork.
By being intentional aboutincorporating both, you can
enhance your effectiveness as acompassionate, driven leader.
I'd love to hear how it goes foryou, so shoot me a message over
on LinkedIn.
And if you are looking for apartner to help you get around
(42:07):
some of those blocks that ourbrain puts in front of us,
please reach out.
I would love to partner withyou.
Have a great week, and I lookforward to talking again with
you next Wednesday.
Are you a leader who started out
this year wanting to leaddifferently?
Did you have resolutions for howyou'd make changes or establish
new habits that would help youdeal with the never ending
workload that you face as acompassionate, driven leader?
And now we're halfway throughFebruary and you're frustrated?
You're not alone.
In fact, I'm right there withyou.
(01:14):
As it turns out, there are waysin which our brains actually get
in the way of us making positivechanges.
So I invited Ursula Pottinga, anexpert in neuroscience and
coaching, to discuss why thishappens and what we can do about
it.
Ursula is a certified coach withmore than 20 years of experience
(01:34):
living and working in Europe,Canada, Asia, and the U.
S.
The co founder of Be AboveLeadership and the co designer
of its groundbreaking advancedcoaching programs and webinars.
She's a skillful workshop leaderand mentor she is also a
certified relational trauma andneuroscience coach to bring
about change and healing inorganizations that have been
(01:56):
impacted by relational trauma.
She speaks internationally andhas co authored a number of
books.
So she's definitely qualified tohave this conversation with me.
Speaking of introductions, ifyou don't know me, I'm Terri
Schmitt, Executive andLeadership Coach at Strong
Leaders Serve, where we partnerwith compassionate, driven
(02:16):
leaders to transform potentialinto And this is the Strong
Leaders Serve podcast.
teri-schmidt_1_02-03-20 (02:27):
Welcome to the Strong Leaders Serve
podcast, Ursula.
I'm so looking forward to ourconversation today.
ursula_1_02-03-2025_150216 (02:34):
Yes, likewise.
Then thank you for having me.
I'm always interested andexcited about talking about
leaders and how they can servebetter and also for their own,
you know, their own growth anddevelopment,
teri-schmidt_1_02-03-2025_ (02:48):
Yes, definitely.
And when we can talk aboutneuroscience on top of all that,
I
ursula_1_02-03-2025_150216 (02:53):
it's a bonus.
teri-schmidt_1_02-03-2025_ (02:54):
even more exciting,
ursula_1_02-03-2025_15021 (02:55):
Yeah, definitely.
Hmm.
teri-schmidt_1_02-03-2025_14 (03:00):
we talked a little bit about it,
but you know, I was one of thosecompassionate driven leaders
that I primarily partner withnow.
And I, you know, wanted to doeverything on my own and, and
read all the books and improveall the time.
And then I had one opportunityto sit down with a coach.
And I could not figure out whythe change happened so quickly
(03:24):
after that.
And then after having thepleasure of getting to have you
in my UTD program and learn alittle bit more about how our
brain works, and then do alittle bit research myself.
It really is fascinating how thebrain can sometimes get in our
way when we want to makepositive changes, and it can
(03:44):
also help us, but I'd love to,you know, dig in today a little
bit about we may not even beaware of how it can get in our
way.
And how sometimes having thattrusted partner, whether that be
a coach or someone else to talkto can, can help us to uh, get
around that in a sense.
ursula_1_02-03-2025_15021 (04:05):
Yeah, no, absolutely.
teri-schmidt_1_02-03-2025_1 (04:07):
I'd love to start with you in terms
of, you know, what firstinspired you to study the
intersection of neuroscience andcoaching?
ursula_1_02-03-2025_150216 (04:16):
I is such a great question and I was
reflecting back on that.
So as you know, I have awonderful business partner and
and you know, we've beenpartners for 22 years and have
always been a really fascinatedand interested about
consciousness is.
And so for many years we, youknow, studied the work of Dr.
(04:40):
David Hawkins, the map ofconsciousness.
We, we read and studied otherthought leaders.
And then at one point it wasactually Anne who called me and
said, you know in terms ofcoaching and consciousness, she
said, there has to be aconnection here somewhere.
And I think the doorway to thatconnection is through
(05:03):
neuroscience.
And so she somewhat tentativelyshared with me that she was
thinking of enrolling in theNeural Leadership Institute.
And it was, it was very sweetand it was very funny.
She said, well, you know, I'mreally thinking about that, but
I don't know how you feel aboutit.
(05:23):
And so my first reaction was,you go right ahead with that.
That's not how my brain works.
That is not something I don'tthink I can ever do.
And so she said, Okay, she said,Would you mind then if I do
that?
I said, No, absolutely.
You go ahead.
I mean, that's really your deal.
(05:45):
Well, she enrolled and lo andbehold, First session with
Neuroleadership Institute, shecalled me back and said, You
know, you have no idea what wetalked about today,
Neuroleadership Institute.
You know, it was aboutneuroplasticity and here's how
the brain works and how it linksto coaching.
And so we would have theseongoing conversations.
(06:09):
And every time she would call mewith yet another insight about
the brain, I would say, Oh, Ican feel a coaching tool coming
on.
And so, I got sort of somewhatinspired and in a way sucked in,
really, by the novelty and the,the interest and the
(06:31):
fascination.
The more we talked about it, themore I realized there was really
such a deep connection that wasSuper valuable for coaches, for
our clients, for leaders, formyself that needed to be
explored.
And so, you know, a year later,she and I enrolled in a program
(06:52):
that Dr Dan Siegel had for ayear.
And basically I was I wascommitted.
I was in love with the science.
And you know, from then we justkept adding.
to our own development in termsof study and reading.
And then we created, you know,our advanced coaching program.
(07:14):
So it was really herinspiration.
And then what she shared with mein terms of neuroscience made so
much sense.
And there were so many lightbulb moments for me personally.
I suddenly understood myself.
So much better, and I thought weneed to share this in a way
(07:35):
that's useful and so Here we are17 years later, and I can't
imagine life withoutneuroscience Yeah,
teri-schmidt_1_02-03-2025_1 (07:50):
and story.
You know, the fact that you werepretty hesitant at the beginning
ursula_1_02-03-2025_150216 (07:55):
I was I was adamant
teri-schmidt_1_02-03-2025_14 (07:57):
me to believe, but that is That is
so, so funny.
I think so many things in lifesometimes happen that way,
whether that be, you know, a, aspousal relationship or
something else at first, itmight be the person we don't
want to with that we end up, youknow, spending our lives with,
ursula_1_02-03-2025_15021 (08:15):
Yeah.
No.
Yeah, absolutely.
And it's a it's interesting.
This story also really connectsto neuroplasticity because
basically what I was saying toend is I don't have any neural
pathways in my brain as itrelates to science.
In school, I was a linguist, solanguages was my deal, you know,
(08:36):
science, social science,geography, you know, all of that
and languages, but that is whatI loved.
And so my response was really abrain response.
It's like, I don't have anyneural plasticity and neural
pathways there.
And therefore.
It feels really uncomfortableeven thinking about it.
(08:58):
And this uncomfortable notion isreally about brain wiring and
neural pathways.
And then, of course, the more wetalked about neuroscience and
the more we developed our tools,the more neural connections I
had in my brain that then reallymade this journey just a little
(09:19):
bit easier.
Thank you.
And then with practice, itbecame better and better and
more fluid and easier.
But the first, the first year,first year and a half, the first
two years, there were astruggle.
I struggled.
I mean, I really did withunderstanding it, making sense
of it, remembering it all thetechnical terms.
(09:42):
But then, you know, you, you,you do this.
Day in day out and then overtime it begins to be so obvious,
teri-schmidt_1_02-03-2025 (09:49):
Yeah.
ursula_1_02-03-2025_15021 (09:50):
Which is not obvious to begin with.
teri-schmidt_1_02-03-2025 (09:53):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And that becoming obvious, arethose new neural pathways, you
know, getting
ursula_1_02-03-2025_15021 (09:59):
Yeah.
absolutely.
teri-schmidt_1_02-03- (10:00):
excellent point.
Yeah.
Thank you for calling that out.
And it's a great jumping offpoint, too.
I mentioned to you when we weretalking before we hit record
that the leaders I work with Icall compassionate driven
leaders because they care asdeeply about the people that
they work with and ensuring thatthey also can become leaders
(10:23):
themselves.
ursula_1_02-03-2025_150216 (10:24):
hmm.
teri-schmidt_1_02-03-2025_14 (10:24):
As they do about the business
results that they are aimingfor.
So, I think sometimes when youhear a compassionate leaders,
you think they aren't driven bybusiness results and vice versa.
But those that I work with arereally about both of those
together, which can bring upsome unique challenges.
but that driven piece, you know,because they have that drive,
(10:47):
they're, they're usually verysuccessful on their own.
But sometimes, like I mentionedat the beginning, they struggle
to change something that theywant to change.
So, I'd love if you could kindof build in on what you were
just talking about in neuralpathways maybe.
Talk about what needs to happenin the brain for someone to make
(11:09):
a change.
ursula_1_02-03-2025_150216 (11:09):
Oh, it's such a great question.
And just like you, I, you know,work with the same kind of
clientele.
Definitely driven, definitelyvery empathetic.
And I think what I see in thisparticularly, there's a sort of
a couple of you know.
Faces and names that are comingto me as I'm talking that
(11:32):
drivenness has created already aneural pathway.
So something that we do a lotand we repeat again and again
and again becomes a very strongneural wiring.
And if that habit is a habitthat proves to be effective and
serves the individual as well asthe people they are working
(11:56):
with, If this is an effectiveneural pathway, then we can
really say, Okay, this is good.
I can let my brain travel alongthat superhighway.
But when we find that there arehabits and actions and thoughts
that we have created over longperiods of time that feel like a
(12:19):
struggle, they don't, it doesn'tfeel like they serve us anymore.
Then changing that is a problembecause it's the same
superhighway and the way thebrain works is it's trying to
conserve energy.
So the brain runs on glucose andbecause of that is sort of
(12:39):
somewhat lazy.
It's trying to conserve energy.
So it uses the thickest neuralconnection that there is in the
brain because it then Really,it's faster firing.
I mean, it's a little bit like,you know, an electricity cord
that you have in your house.
(12:59):
The thicker the cord, the fasterthe firing to the lamp, to the,
you know, whatever it is.
And then the skinnier cords, thefiring there, it takes, it takes
a lot longer.
So the metaphor of thesuperhighway are those neural
pathways that we have used foroften years.
(13:22):
And then the dirt road, as Icall them, are the new habits
we're trying to create.
And they're bumpy, you know,they're full of potholes and
they're full of rocks and stonesand obstacles.
And so that metaphor of the dirtroad and the superhighway fits
perfectly.
with neuroplasticity.
(13:43):
So anything that you have donefor long periods of time that
feels comfortable is our comfortzone.
Those habits are really hard tochange because you have start
to, you basically start to builda dirt road that takes a lot of
intention and attention.
And so that is what the brain isthen struggling with is putting
(14:08):
that energy.
to those harder accessibleroads.
And so tiredness, stress, thosehave an impact on whether we're
using the superhighway orwhether we're using our energy
to travel along that dirt road.
So anything new that you want tocreate and change will be that
(14:31):
proverbial metaphorical dirtroad.
And I think it helps tounderstand that it is a dirt
road and therefore it is justharder.
It's just harder to travel alongthat path and giving yourself
permission to be patient, tomake mistakes.
To sometimes slide back to theold habits again because that
(14:54):
superhighway is super strong Canhelp us feel more comfortable
with the uncomfortableness of of
teri-schmidt_1_02-03-2025_140 (15:05):
I love the, the dirt road analogy
because it, it makes it so easyto, to think about and what you
said too about, anytime we'reunder stress or, you know,
whether that be, affecting usemotionally or physically it's
That we're likely to go back tothat, that superhighway and You
(15:28):
know, two topics that we'redealing with on the podcast for
a little bit now for severalepisodes are two challenges that
I see in a lot of my clients.
And that is workload, you know,the intense workload and a sense
of disconnection, whether thatbe from other people or from the
mission of the organizationthey're working with.
(15:49):
And I can see those twochallenges really driving even
the.
Best, you know, most wellintentioned leader back to the
superhighways that maybe theywould like to get off
ursula_1_02-03-2025_15021 (16:03):
Yeah, absolutely.
Because the, the, the workload,the inability or the there's
less time to reflect.
There's less time to sort ofrelax.
There's less time to ponder.
All of that intense focus takesa lot of energy.
(16:25):
And so doing something new, it'salmost like the resources have
been used.
For workload and there isn'tenough of a resource in the
brain and in the body that'sleft for change and really sort
of moving along this, this, thisbumpy road.
Now there are seven key factorsto neuroplasticity and I want to
(16:49):
sort of touch lightly on thosebecause I think they're also
will address a little bit theconnection and the workload
challenge.
Thank you.
So the seven key factors arethings like, for example,
novelty.
Novelty, that when something isnew, it really creates
excitement in the brain.
(17:10):
It's also rewarding to thebrain.
So anytime we do somethingthat's new, yeah, it's
challenging.
But the excitement and thereward will also help us create
those new neural connections.
So novelty in terms of change isimportant.
If the brain is not interestedin things that are boring, it
(17:30):
loses attention.
And so when you're thinkingabout wanting to change a habit,
you have to, you have to try andfigure out how can we do it in a
way that's novel, that'sinteresting.
teri-schmidt_1_02-03-2025_14 (17:44):
Mm
ursula_1_02-03-2025_150216 (17:44):
The other thing, and this is in
relationship to connection, oneof the biggest key factors, an
important one toneuroplasticity, is
relationship.
So when we are in relationship,it is easier for us to make a
change.
And I think that is wherecoaching comes in.
A coach is such a good advocate,a sounding board, an
(18:08):
accountability body, you know,there's a safe space of also
sharing our emotional struggleswith that person, and all of
that will really help with the,with the, the neuroscience load
on the brain and will help ussort of offload that a little
bit.
To someone who can can supportus and help us.
(18:32):
So relationship is, is really,really important.
We do better as human beingswhen we're connected, not only
in relationship to change, butgenerally.
So there's novelty.
There's relationship and thenthe other one is making mistakes
is one of the key factors.
So that's actually a little bitI think of a cultural twist
(18:56):
because we think making mistakeis a bad thing.
Well, you know that when you arenot sure about something or when
you are making a mistake, itgives you the signal that your
brain is really traveling alongthis dirt road.
It's not your comfort zone.
It's not the, you know, you dowhat you always have done.
(19:19):
And so making mistakes helps thebrain prune, cut off certain
pathways that might lead us inthe wrong direction and help us
really stick with the road athand.
And again, I think that is wherecoaching comes in because a
coach can really help us withthe question of saying, okay,
(19:44):
How did that work and whatdidn't work and what did work?
Because if you don't have that,then we might be doing something
wrong again and again and againand again.
And before we know, we'vecreated a new neural pathway,
but it's the wrong, it's thewrong pathway, right?
And it's like, okay, why did Ido this?
(20:04):
Why did I do this?
Now I have to reverse courseand, you know, go in the wrong
direction.
So it can, again, relationship.
Making mistakes that can reallybe helpful in terms of, you
know, reflection and action andshifting when we need to shift
and move.
So if you are a leader and youare wanting to change something,
(20:27):
find an advocate.
If you don't have a coach, find,find a buddy, find an advocate,
find someone that's a goodsounding board, that's a good
person to brainstorm.
That's that you can check inwith and saying, this is how I
think about this.
Am I right?
What are you seeing?
Because that will help yourbrain create the pathway in the
(20:49):
right direction rather than, youknow, you having to create a
detour and go like, oops,
teri-schmidt_1_02-03-202 (20:55):
Right,
ursula_1_02-03-2025_15021 (20:55):
oops, wrong way.
teri-schmidt_1_02-03-2025_ (20:57):
Yeah and not only wrong way one time
actually creating like you saidthat new neural pathway.
ursula_1_02-03-2025_15 (21:03):
Exactly, again and again and again.
And then another key factor isactually rest.
So I think this is where workoverload comes in.
If our brain doesn't get achance to rest and relax and
(21:23):
activate the default modenetwork, which is the network in
the brain that helps us dream,we're going to ponder.
Go to the past, go to thefuture.
It's sort of permission to bedistracted kind of brain.
Very different from the taskpositive network, the other
network that helps us to bevery, very present in the moment
(21:46):
and very, very focused on tasks.
So, as a leader, if you aredoing, doing, doing, doing,
doing, focus, focus, focus,focus, And you don't give your
brain a little bit of defaultmode network time.
Over time, you will lose acertain amount of inspiration
(22:07):
and motivation.
And also creativity.
Because the default mode tapsinto this relaxed state.
That, for example, we have whenwe're in the shower.
And we don't need to focus onanything.
You know, we, there's nothingneeded when we're in the shower.
We can just relax and enjoy.
And I don't know about you, butI have, I have the best ideas
(22:31):
when I'm in the shower becauseI'm not trying to figure it out
as I'm sitting in front of mycomputer or the desk.
So if you're overloaded in termsof workload and you don't give
your brain time to relax andponder and dream, you are going
to lose capacity.
(22:51):
And so I think that speaks to,you know, work overload.
Even if you only take 10minutes, get up, go for a walk,
let your mind wander.
Don't go back to your to dolist.
Just dream.
Look at the trees, the sky, takein the natural environment.
All of that will help your brainrelax.
(23:12):
And I guarantee you, as soon asyou come back to the office or
your computer, whatever it is,the idea that you've been
looking for is probably going toemerge through.
That relaxed state of brain.
So the drive to do, do, do, do.
It has its limits.
(23:32):
Your brain has a limitedcapacity to focus.
And when it's done, it actuallyis done.
We need to give it anopportunity to, to have that
space more intentionally,that's, I think is the most
important part of this wholenetwork scenario.
teri-schmidt_1_02-03-2025 (23:53):
Yeah, that you, that was the word I
was going to use after listeningto you that being intentional
about it and, you know, having alittle bit more, well, I would
say control, but, you know, justintention around, you know, when
you give your brain that restthat you need, like you said,
(24:14):
um, to be the most effectiveleader that you can be.
And then, you know, I just thinkabout those overloaded.
Leaders out there who arelistening and who are thinking,
you know, that's okay.
I can, you know, if I just tryharder, I can, I can figure this
out.
And, you know, I think what yousaid about creating those wrong
(24:36):
dirt roads, those wrong branchesand off, because you don't have
someone to reflect with, youdon't have the opportunity to
Have someone who's skilled andasking you questions that might
surface why that is the wrongroad and might help you get, you
(24:56):
know, back on that dirt roadthat you want to turn into a
super highway.
And so it's almost like a catch22 because you think you're so
busy, you don't have time tospend that time reflecting.
And, and that's another reason,you know, I advocate for
coaching so much.
It's an intentional time thatcan accelerate.
Those realizations and thosereflections, especially when
(25:20):
you're with someone who isskilled and knows how to access
that and help you reflect.
ursula_1_02-03-2025_150216 (25:25):
No, absolutely.
It's a sort of an interestingthing.
You're absolutely right.
We think, Oh, I can figure thisout.
I just need to do one morething.
I can do this one more thing.
Well, you probably can't and youare better served to stop just
when you think I just gotnothing left and you think you
can do one more thing.
(25:47):
My advice to you would be whenyou feel that you've come to
your limit, stop and take abreak.
Take a rest.
Do something simple.
Many people meditate even 5 10minutes.
That is a restful place.
As I said, going for a walk,journaling, doodling, do, you
(26:08):
know, have coloring pencilssomewhere.
Something that doesn't requirefocused attention.
And that will refresh yourbrain.
It will refresh the energy.
You will make fewer mistakesbecause your brain isn't
overloaded.
You will have more creativityand imagination, which you need
for being also an innovativeleader.
(26:30):
And it's sort of like alwaysfunny to me that, you know,
some, some organizations havethese innovation programs,
right?
And But they don't give thepeople any time for default
mode.
They're just like, let's doinnovation now.
teri-schmidt_1_02-03-2025_14 (26:46):
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
ursula_1_02-03-2025_1502 (26:51):
that's not where innovation comes from.
Innovation comes from notthinking about it.
But sending a little intentionout there and sleeping on it.
And you know, all of that, thatis when the, when the solution
comes.
And I think.
There is a little bit of a mythor a misunderstanding that
working means doing andproductivity.
(27:14):
But your brain has two differentways of working.
One way of working is focusedattention and the other way it
works is by mind wandering anddreaming.
It's two different kinds of workand it still work.
teri-schmidt_1_02-03-2025 (27:30):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I love that.
You know, I don't think, youknow, many people in our culture
would say that that is work to,to dream and let your mind
wander, but that, you know, thebrain proves otherwise.
ursula_1_02-03-2025_150216 (27:42):
Yep.
ursula (27:42):
another one of the key factors, is personal relevance.
We will only change what ispersonally relevant to us.
Everything else is a should.
I should be doing this.
I should be better at that.
(28:03):
But over time, if there isn't astrong motivation, if there
isn't a strong inspiration, ifit's not relevant to you, you
might start, but it will fizzleout eventually.
If it is important to you, youwill make the effort.
You will change it.
(28:23):
You need to find the personalrelevance.
Is it in alignment with yourvalues?
Is it in alignment with yourmission, your vision that you
have for yourself?
And if all that lines up, thenmaking that change happening
will be crucial.
So much easier.
And so if you are supervisingand managing people and you feel
(28:48):
they need to change something,make sure that you have the
personal relevance and valueconversation with them.
Why is it important?
How is it important?
Why is it relevant?
What's the motivation?
Is it in alignment with theirvalues?
When you have that conversation,You will know whether they're
(29:09):
really motivated by this or not.
And if they're not motivated, myguess would be they might start,
but it will never really trulyland.
teri-schmidt_1_02-03-2025_140 (29:21):
I know that our brain is not
necessarily a fan of uncertaintyfor many of the reasons that
you've already talked about, butI'd love to hear more about you
know, What we can do when we aregoing through those periods of
uncertainty, where we don't havethose patterns of behavior to
rely on,
ursula_1_02-03-2025_15021 (29:40):
Yeah,
teri-schmidt_1_02-03-2025_1 (29:41):
and how the brain can get in our
way, but also how we can getaround that.
ursula_1_02-03-2025_150216 (29:46):
No, this is I think so relevant.
In today's world where I thinkthings change faster than we can
possibly keep up with.
And again, it's an interestingin terms of the brain.
So the research of Lisa FeldmanBarrett.
(30:06):
So you might want to just sortof keep a little bit of it.
Sort of note for yourself ifyou're listening to this
podcast.
Her name is Lisa FeltmanBarrett, and her research is
really about how our emotionscreated.
And so she has done someintensive research over many
years with, you know, thousandsand thousands of people, all
(30:29):
peer reviewed.
And what she has come to isreally saying the brain
constructs emotions Based onwhat it can predict.
teri-schmidt_1_02-03-202 (30:43):
Mm-hmm
ursula_1_02-03-2025_150216 (30:43):
the predictions are based on past
experiences, history, context,and the current goal.
And so the brain uses evidencefrom the past to help us with
the prediction for what iscoming next.
And that is literally, eithernext moment, next week or next
(31:05):
year.
So this prediction cycle of,okay, here is how I feel.
This feeling is based onsomething that I've experienced
before.
And now the question is, is thisfeeling and this prediction I
have, what's going to happennext?
Is this helping or not helping?
So what the research shows isthat when we have.
(31:29):
negative predictions aboutsomething that's going to
happen.
That is usually based onsomething that was negative in
the past, because otherwise thebrain wouldn't make that
connection.
And so anytime we don't have aprediction about anything, so
when it's unpredictable, thebrain is literally looking for
(31:51):
something is looking for somedirection is looking.
For some connection that canhelp us emotionally connect to
what's going to come next andchange is unpredictable.
And so it is hugely challengingfor the brain to have no data.
(32:12):
So if you have been, you know,acquired by another company or
there's been mergers or, youknow, you have a new team or a
new boss, but the first reactionof the brain is I have no idea
what to do with it.
I don't know who these peopleare.
I don't know what this is.
I don't know who this person is.
So it sends us into thisemotional tailspin where we
(32:35):
really go down into frustrationand anxiety and worry because
the message of the brain is thisis unpredictable and therefore
it's bad news.
teri-schmidt_1_02-03-202 (32:47):
Mm-hmm
ursula_1_02-03-2025_15 (32:47):
However, if we can put ourselves into
that position again and askourselves, okay, I can't predict
what's going to happen nextbecause there's a new team, a
new boss, whatever it is.
I don't know what's going tohappen with that because that's
outside of my control.
But what can I predict aboutmyself?
teri-schmidt_1_02-03-2025_1 (33:09):
Hmm
ursula_1_02-03-2025_150216 (33:09):
How have I been handling change and
new situations before?
And so then the brain goes backto saying, Oh, When you were in
this organization, there waschange, and here is how you
handled that.
Or, when you moved to adifferent country, there was
change.
Here is how you handled it.
(33:30):
Or whatever it might be, anychange that you have lived
through, the brain will use thatas evidence, as a prediction
factor of saying, you have nocontrol over the uncontrollable,
but what you can lean into, iswhat you can predict about
yourself, that you were strong,that you were capable, that you
(33:53):
were curious, that you wereresilient, that you bounced
back.
Those are all things that we canthen lean into that makes the
unpredictable outsideoccurrences less scary because
there's a prediction in here andin our brain that can help us
navigate uncertain times.
(34:17):
by focusing on the things thatwe simply can't control, which
is outside of us.
But looking in here and saying,you know what?
Yeah, that is unpredictable.
All that.
But here's what I know aboutmyself, about how I handled
uncertainty before.
How did you?
(34:37):
How did you deal with thepandemic?
How did you live through that?
I mean, that's such a bigunpredictable example that we
all have lived through now.
And the brain will tell you whoyou were being, predictably so,
as you were living through thesetwo years and coming out of it.
(34:58):
So it's really building on aninner strength that you have,
that the brain has evidence for.
And so we can start looking forthat internal evidence.
And so the external hurricanethat's out here swirling becomes
(35:20):
less threatening because we'vegot something to hold on to
that's internal.
Does that make sense?
teri-schmidt_1_02-03-2025_14 (35:27):
It does make sense.
And, you know, I think, as youmentioned earlier, the energy
saving nature of the brain, thatgives it, you know, something to
feel like it can predict what'sgoing to happen next on.
And I think Getting back to thereflection, it is, you know, so
much easier sometimes when youcan do that with a trusted
(35:48):
partner as well, as opposed totrying to unearth that data in
yourself and find the themes inthat data so that then your
brain can use it to predict.
I just, you know, a few goodquestions asked of me can help
me do that in about a hundredthof a time as ruminating on it in
my own mind would do.
ursula_1_02-03-2025 (36:09):
Absolutely.
And especially, you know, whenwe are feeling anxious or
frustrated or.
You know, there are someemotions going on.
It is much harder for the brainto find the clarity and the
groundedness and the clarity ofthinking.
So, you know, we need a partnerlike a coach, for example, to
(36:29):
also help us regulate theseemotions so that we can have a
clearer thinking pattern.
And definitely as it relates topredictions, that is not an easy
thing to figure out foryourself.
You need someone who says toyou, so what are you predicting
and how does that feel?
And what can you predict aboutyourself?
(36:51):
What have you lived through thatis much harder to access when
you have to do it on your ownfor sure?
teri-schmidt_1_02-03-2025 (36:57):
Well, this has been a fascinating
conversation, I would love tohear one question we've been
asking all of our guests thisseason, is if you had one piece
of advice for a compassionate,driven leader.
What would that be?
And everyone complains that Ilimit you to one, but I'm going
to do that.
You're
ursula_1_02-03-2025_150216 (37:19):
that I, that I have said, I think
probably the, the biggest,
teri-schmidt_1_02-03-202 (37:24):
cheat.
ursula_1_02-03-2025_150216 (37:28):
Find what is important and relevant
to you, not to what other peopleare telling you, you should be
doing not what your boss says,not, you know, what feels like,
oh, you know, that, that needsto be done, but really find,
find this motivation inside ofyou that is values driven.
(37:49):
You know, for you, because whenyou come from this personal
relevance piece, you will numberone, be more compassionate and
following, you know, a changedpath is going to be easier.
You are also going to inspireothers in much different ways
than they can connect to, youknow, this is important to me
(38:12):
and therefore, you know, I cansign up for that.
You know, what's important tothe team.
So if I have to narrow it downto one thing, it's, you know,
find personal relevance.
And then, you know, I know yousaid one, but I'll give another
one.
Is, I'm going to cheat.
(38:34):
Be patient with yourself.
Be compassionate with yourself.
Change is hard.
It doesn't happen overnight.
Give yourself a break.
Thank you.
Don't be so hard on yourself.
That's not gonna serve you oranyone else.
Be compassionate with yourselfand patient,
teri-schmidt_1_02-03-2025 (38:57):
Well, I'm going to take that advice
myself and I'm sure many of ourlisteners appreciate it
ursula_1_02-03-2025_1 (39:02):
including myself.
I'm talking to myself right now.
And
teri-schmidt_1_02-03-2025_14 (39:10):
if people want to get in touch with
you or learn more about the workthat you do, where is the best
place for them to go?
ursula_1_02-03-2025_150216 (39:18):
two places.
Certainly, if you are a coachand you've listened to that,
then be above leadership.
We have a great website with ourneuroscience and coaching
programs.
If you are a leader I also havea podcast that's on my website
profound growth.
com.
You can also find me on LinkedInand the, the podcast is very
(39:41):
much neuro conversations at theintersection of neuroscience
coaching and systems, becausethe system that you were in also
has a huge impact on how youdeal with this change and, and
everything else.
So profound growth you can reachme through my website there.
So, and thank you so much.
(40:02):
This was lovely conversation.
Appreciate your questions andyour curiosity and definitely
love that you are supporting.
strong leaders that arecompassionate and driven because
it's not an easy thing tointegrate these two different,
those different pieces.
So really appreciate you.
(40:22):
Thank you.
teri-schmidt_1_02-03-2025 (40:23):
Well, thank you.
And thank you for sharing yourwisdom and your experiences as
well.
And I'm sure that many of ourlisteners are going to go follow
you.
And I highly recommend yourpodcast as well.
Had an opportunity to listen andit was fascinating.
ursula_1_02-03-2025_15021 (40:38):
Well, thank you.
Thank you very much.
Take care.
Microphone (Wireless Micr (40:42):
Well, I hope you enjoyed that
conversation, but if you don'tknow already, I'm pretty big on
making sure that your time iswell spent, and that actually
helps you to make positivechanges in your life.
So every episode this season, weare going to end with two
things, a reflection and asuggested action.
So for today, for thereflection, I'd like you to take
(41:05):
a minute to think about a changethat you're currently trying to
make in your leadership journey.
What dirt roads are you tryingto build and what super highways
might be getting in your way?
And as a suggested action, take10 minutes today to engage your
default mode network through anintentional break.
(41:26):
I know it's hard when you're sobusy, but try to take 10 minutes
to either go for a walk, doodle,or simply look out the window
without focusing on any specifictask.
Notice what insights or ideasemerge for you when you give
your brain the space to wander.
Remember, as Ursula shared, yourbrain has two different ways of
working, focused attention andmind wandering.
(41:47):
And both are valuable forms ofwork.
By being intentional aboutincorporating both, you can
enhance your effectiveness as acompassionate, driven leader.
I'd love to hear how it goes foryou, so shoot me a message over
on LinkedIn.
And if you are looking for apartner to help you get around
(42:07):
some of those blocks that ourbrain puts in front of us,
please reach out.
I would love to partner withyou.
Have a great week, and I lookforward to talking again with
you next Wednesday.
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