April 2, 2025 • 44 mins
Do you sometimes struggle to build trusting relationships in your workplace, especially with the distance of remote and hybrid work?
You're not alone. In this episode, I talked with MIT Professor Deborah Ancona about the essential skills of inquiry, advocacy, and connecting that leaders can use to foster trust inside and outside their organizations.
Discover the power of balancing these skills in a distributed leadership model, and learn practical steps to cultivate strong external networks. Listen to find out how these strategies can enhance team dynamics and drive exceptional results.
Resources:
- X-Teams: How to build teams that lead, innovate, and succeed
- X360 and XChange simulation
- Professor Ancona's LinkedIn
Looking for a community of leaders where you can tackle real challenges, share wins, and grow together—without office politics getting in the way? Join Leadership Thought Partners, a coach-led, group-directed space launching in July—early bird pricing ends May 31, 2025 at strongleadersserve.com/ltp!
Connect on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/teri-m-schmidt/
Get 1-on-1 leadership support from Teri here: https://www.strongleadersserve.com/coaching
Set up an intro call with Teri: https://calendly.com/terischmidt/discoverycall
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Do you sometimes struggle tobuild trusting relationships in
your workplace, especially withthe distance of remote and
hybrid work?
You're not alone.
In this episode, I talked withMIT Professor Debra an Kona
about the essential skills ofinquiry, advocacy and connecting
that leaders can use to fostertrust both inside and outside
(00:23):
their teams.
Debra an Kona is the founder ofthe MIT Leadership Center.
Her work centers on theindividual leadership
capabilities, team dynamics andorganizational structures that
enable innovation in anexponentially changing world.
Her work also looks at how earlyfamily dynamics impact leader's
(00:43):
ability to change.
Her work has been published intop academic journals and
managerial outlets like HBR andSMR.
She has consulted toorganizations around the world
in pharma tech as well asnonprofits.
We had a great conversationabout building trust and how to
(01:04):
more effectively lead.
So let's get into it.
I am Terry Schmidt, executiveand leadership coach at Strong
Leaders Serve, where we supportleaders in holding the tension
of caring about the humans theywork with while driving positive
business results.
And this is The Strong LeadersServe podcast.
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-20 (02:18):
welcome Deborah to the strong leader
serve podcast.
I'm looking forward to ourconversation today and honored
to have you on the show.
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-20 (02:26):
Well, thanks for having me.
I'm excited to be here and tolearn more about what you are
interested in and what yourfollowers are interested in.
teri-schmidt_1_01-28 (02:37):
Wonderful.
Well, as I mentioned, I did havea conversation recently with
Henrik, your coauthor as well.
And, and that was fascinating.
And I look forward to digging inspecifically to one element of X
teams.
As I mentioned on the episodewith him, I was fascinated by
the book and highly recommendedto everyone who is interested.
(02:59):
And he mentioned also, yeah, ofcourse, of course.
And he mentioned also theadditional resources that you
have available like thesimulation and the feedback
tool.
And so hopefully by this timepeople have checked that out,
but if not, that is a, anotherreminder to do so, but I'd love
to hear your speech.
Specific story, you know, what,what was the moment or
(03:22):
experience that you would sayfirst inspired you to study how
teams operate and succeed?
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-20 (03:30):
Yeah, it's an interesting question and
one that I actually haven'tasked myself very much, but if I
stop for a moment and thinkabout it, I think the first
moment was when I startedstudying psychology in college
and learning about teams and wasjust stunned At the impact that
teams can have on the peoplethat are in those teams
(03:51):
silencing themselves, havingsome people take over some
people being scapegoated theidea that we actually shift the
way we see things because ofbeing in a group.
So there's this conformity pushin, in the team.
And so I became very interestedin, in those dynamics.
I'm also very interested infamily and families and family
(04:14):
systems.
And a family is also like ateam, so it has its own
dynamics.
So when I learned that you couldactually make a living studying
teams and doing research andteaching, I said, oh, wow, this
is this is exciting.
And interestingly, a lot of thethings that I learned early on,
And it turns out not to becorrect when we study teams in
(04:36):
the business context.
And so it's been a very funjourney, kind of following the
data.
So I would say that there's aninnate fascination with what is
going on in teams.
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-202 (04:48):
Right, right.
Yeah.
And now you've piqued myinterest.
I'm a, I'm a big data person.
So I'd love to hear if there'sone that you can share.
One thing that you did learnabout teams that you then came
to learn wasn't.
Actually accurate, or maybe notas accurate as you originally
thought.
Yeah,
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-20 (05:12):
study that we did looked at all the
things that we had learned aboutwhat makes teams effective.
goals, clear roles, synergy,trust, all of these things.
And the first study that we didwas of or that I did was of some
sales teams in thetelecommunications industry.
And when we looked, it turnedout that teams where people
(05:37):
liked each other.
Thought that they were doingreally, really well.
And when they followed all thoserules of clear goals and clear
roles, et cetera, they thoughtthey were doing really well.
They were high performers.
But when we looked at actualrevenue attainment, Those same
dimensions did not hold water.
(05:58):
It did not predict revenue.
And that, that was a reallyscary thing for me.
That was way back my, mydissertation and not having data
that doesn't support yourhypothesis is not good, but
luckily we got it publishedbecause we presented an
alternative view, which is.
What the X teams ended up being,which is this idea of out before
(06:18):
in that it's not just how teamsoperate internally, but how they
reach out across theirboundaries that predict
performance.
Yeah, and
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025 (06:27):
that, that is fascinating.
And,
deborah-ancona_1_01- (06:29):
mentioned,
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_13 (06:30):
as I mentioned, the leaders I work
with, we call them compassionatedriven leaders.
So those two characteristics,and I could see how if you favor
one over the other.
So if you favor, you know,Building that strong sense of,
I'm not going to say belonging,but of liking each other within
(06:50):
the team.
And aren't necessarily asfocused on the driving, the
business results, which mightrequire you to go out before in,
or, or does require to go outbefore.
And I could see how you couldget caught in that place where
your team has excellentengagement, but isn't driving
the business results,
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025 (07:10):
and we have a lot of data.
You're a data fan.
That's good.
That suggests that teams thatare not externally oriented
absolutely do not do as well,even though people like each
other.
If you're not kind of in syncwith your environment, then the
team can really go down.
negative productivity, But thegood news is that if you're
(07:31):
actively engaged with yourexternal environment, doing what
Henrik talked about,ambassadorship, task
coordination and sense making,You are more successful.
And when you are moresuccessful, then people feel
good about the team and abouteach other and about their
performance.
And so it's kind of a backwardsinto.
(07:53):
good in the team.
So we don't want people to feel
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-202 (07:55):
right.
Yeah,
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-202 (07:58):
that both, both the external activity
and internal sense ofsatisfaction.
Yeah.
teri-schmidt_1_01-28 (08:06):
excellent.
It's it's not one over theother.
You can have both.
But like you said, it maybe itis about that order in terms of
the going out and beingexternally focused before coming
in.
But but both are very important.
deborah-ancona_1_01 (08:21):
absolutely.
And we talk a lot about theexternal, but you're absolutely
right.
Keeping that balance isextremely important.
teri-schmidt_1_01-2 (08:28):
Definitely.
Well, I'd love to focus in onthe leadership model that you
talk a lot about in X teams.
You talk about the value ofcreating a distributed
leadership model.
And I appreciate I'm curious,particularly in the business
environment we're in right now,what makes that so important?
Yeah.
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025 (08:53):
and ambiguous.
But the world we're living intoday is what we refer to as an
exponentially changing world.
That is, it is all of thoseother things, but the new
wrinkle as it were, is speed.
not just that we're going fast,but we're accelerating.
It's going faster and faster andfaster and faster.
And you just have to look in theworld.
(09:15):
AI is going in one direction.
All of a sudden there's somedisruption and we're going in
another direction so that speed.
Is a critical part of ourexternal environment.
So in that kind of environment,what you don't want to do is
have just leadership at the topeight.
It takes too long for leadersfor it to go up and come down
(09:36):
and Because of the complexityand the need to move so quickly,
the person at the top doesn'tnecessarily have all the
information and expertise that'sneeded.
So you need what we refer to asdistributed leadership, by which
we simply mean leadership atevery level at the top and at
the bottom.
And so In that case, you wantpeople at all levels to make
(09:59):
decisions.
You want the people who haveaccess to the customers, to the
technology, to the marketplace.
Those are the people who youwant in a decision making,
making mode.
That said, it's not that we'regetting rid of senior
leadership.
Senior leadership has a pivotalrole to play.
And one of the articles that.
(10:20):
I wrote with colleagues onnimble leadership.
The senior level is what we callthe architects.
They have to architect theculture and the structure and
the processes that get all ofthose other leaders aligned.
In the same direction.
they're all following the samestrategy.
(10:40):
They're all moving in in jointstep with one another.
And so the idea is to haveleaders in sync and having the
people who have the informationand the expertise and the timing
right to be the ones makingdecisions.
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025 (10:58):
Yeah.
You know, I love that.
And it, it brings up you know,some, challenges that I've heard
from executives.
That I work with, and you know,they particularly new executives
who are very concerned about nothaving direct access to, for
example, the frontline workersanymore and not having having
(11:19):
that data and feeling that thatis a lack.
And I just.
I think it's reassuring to hearyou talk about nimble
leadership.
And it's not that they don'tneed that data.
They don't need that directaccess, but it sounds like their
role is shifted to the pointthat if you have this
(11:39):
distributed leadership modelthey can operate in a way that
that isn't as much of a lackbecause they have leaders at the
other levels that do have accessto that information.
Did I understand that correctly?
Mm hmm.
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_ (11:56):
so it means that senior leaders are
not the sole decision makers,and that can also feel
uncomfortable.
Well, wait a second.
I'm seeding power at some level,but they are creating what we
call the game board ofleadership.
On which X teams and individualleaders are are working So a
(12:16):
very pivotal role, but you alsodoesn't mean that they have to
be out of.
The information there stillcould be communication that
links up to the top or momentscheck ins.
Okay, what are you working on?
What's going on?
So that they do have a sense ofwhat's going on.
They don't have to put a barrierbetween what they're doing and
(12:38):
lower level leaders.
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-202 (12:40):
Right, right.
But it's not necessarily all onthem.
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-202 (12:43):
It's not on them and it's not daily
keeping your fingers on the onthe pulse of what's going on.
It may be just periodic checkins.
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-202 (12:53):
Right, right.
Exactly.
Well, you know, getting into thecontinuing on that with the
distributed leadership model.
I know there are four skillsthat you focus in on, but the
one that I really wanted to honein on today, because I think
it's critical for the leadersthat listen is that leadership
skill of relating.
So I wonder if you would definerelating for me and talk about
(13:16):
what makes it so important,particularly in a organization
where they are using thedistributed leadership model
that is full of X teams.
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-20 (13:25):
Sure.
Well, so very simple definition.
We could get into a lot ofcomplexity.
But us, very simply, it'screating trusting relationships
with others, not just in yourteam, but also in your
organization and in the externalecosystem.
So it's that X team philosophyof relating inside and it's
(13:48):
important because first of all,in this new world where we're
having to interact with a lot ofdifferent kinds of people
different on many, manydimensions.
And so being able to Act in thatkind of environment requires
some relating skills.
And it's also important becausewe have to, as I said, move
(14:10):
quickly.
So that means you need toquickly be able to understand
and empathize, have that inquirywork, understand the other
people, but also advocate andnegotiate.
For yourself as well as coachingpeople.
So if you have much moredistributed innovation and
distributed leadership, thenpeople are sometimes doing work
(14:34):
that that Isn't necessarilycomfortable for them, or it
might be new for them.
And so this coaching capacity.
So rather than doing, you'rehelping a lot of other people do
the work.
And that's a form of relating asis again, creating these
external networks so that youcan partner so that you can
learn so that you can coordinateIn a nimble way, you have to be
(14:58):
able to move quickly and thatmeans being able to up the phone
or send the email or whateverway we're currently
communicating and say, Hey, Ihave an idea.
Do you want to do this?
How can we do this?
And, and moving very quickly.
I often, show a video ofJennifer Hyman, who's the
founder of Rent the Runway, andshe tells this great story of
(15:23):
they're thinking about this neworganizational form, this new
business model, and her roommateco founder says, Well, who
should we speak to about this?
And said, Well, Diane vonFurstenberg.
And the roommate says, What doyou know her?
And so she says, No, not at all.
But they They
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_13 (15:43):
Mm hmm.
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025 (15:46):
von Furstenberg in order and they
get her and they're invited to ameeting and she goes to the
meeting three days after she hasthis idea is this quick go
picture idea to create arelationship so that you can
understand what's the customer'sperspective?
What do I need to do to change?
And that rests on a fundamentalboundary or fundamental base of
(16:11):
relating.
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_133 (16:12):
I love that story.
And in your mention of, youknow, both inquiry and advocacy,
I'd love to hear a little bitmore about that.
And I, as I understand it, Ioften see leaders who have a
preference for one over theother.
So I'd, I'd love to hear.
First, kind of a little bit moreabout your definition of what
inquiry looks like and whatadvocacy looks like, but then
(16:35):
second, why is it important tohave the balance between those
two as you are buildingrelationships and building
effective teams?
Mm
deborah-ancona_1_01-28- (16:46):
inquiry refers to an ability really to
do what psychologists calledperspective taking to put
yourself in someone else'sshoes.
Can I understand the world fromyour shoes?
if we're in negotiation, then Ineed to say, well, why do you
want what you want so that youcan get deeper down into
(17:07):
understanding the motives andwhat's driving the other person?
That's really, really important.
But leaders can't just inquire,they also have their own agendas
and they need to be able to andnegotiate for those agendas,
advocate for what they think isimportant.
(17:27):
So just as, I might reach out toyou and say, why are you working
so hard to get X done?
also need to say, and this iswhy I think why is so important.
This is, this is myunderstanding.
These are my data.
This is my rationale.
This is my experience.
This is why I am.
And that affords just a placeof, of dialogue.
(17:51):
It's
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_ (17:51):
hmm.
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_1 (17:52):
I don't like what you say and you
don't like what I say.
So we're done.
And we're just in conflict.
You need to be able to createsome space for dialogue.
And that's why you need both ofthose things.
Okay.
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025 (18:03):
Yeah.
For those leaders that, youknow, maybe have a preference
for inquiry and are verycurious.
We've, we've done, you know,several episodes about curiosity
and about perspective taking.
So for those leaders who arereally comfortable.
In that, but maybe not ascomfortable with the advocacy
piece or maybe a little bitquieter about it.
(18:26):
Have you seen you know, bestpractices or anything that can
help leaders get more in abalanced place?
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-20 (18:33):
well, it's a great question, and I
actually work with a lot ofexecutives and a lot of female
executives.
I know you have a
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_13 (18:42):
Mm hmm.
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025 (18:43):
the room, and I think there are
several ways that I would lookat that.
The first is sometimes thepeople who are into inquiry
actually have this idea thatadvocacy is bad.
Mm hmm.
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_13 (18:55):
Mm
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-202 (18:56):
it's
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_ (18:56):
hmm.
Mm
deborah-ancona_1_01-28 (18:57):
selfish.
It's taking up too much room.
It's pushy.
It's political.
And that's bad.
And
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_ (19:05):
hmm.
Mm
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-202 (19:07):
that is an issue, the first thing I
suggest, I'm a huge, huge fan ofreframe.
How can
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_ (19:15):
hmm.
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
deborah-ancona_1_01-28 (19:17):
selfish.
I'm, I'm pushy.
I'm political to I'mrepresenting my team and the
needs of my team.
That's what I'm doing,particularly for women.
It's not just about me.
It's also about, it's from me toother.
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-202 (19:31):
Right.
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
Right, right.
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
Mm
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025 (19:38):
And in order to do that, I need to
get my point of view acrossbecause that's doing my job.
It's not being political.
It's actually doing my job.
Or need to clarify ourpriorities and interest because
otherwise someone else is goingto get the power and we're going
(19:58):
to lose out.
So not doing this is net netloss.
So thinking about different waysto To reframe what advocacy is
and maybe even get rid of theword.
Get rid of the word.
If, if, if, if advocacy orpoliticizing, whatever, it's.
Triggers you in some way thatgets you in a negative path.
(20:21):
Then just think about itdifferently.
I'm representing my team and allthe work that we've done in
order to improve the outcome.
That's what this is about.
Very different.
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_13 (20:31):
Mm hmm.
Mm
deborah-ancona_1_01-28- (20:33):
doesn't really work in the spirit of
distributed leadership.
someone else to do your, youradvocacy or your negotiating.
You might come bring two of you.
One does the inquiry and theother does the advocacy for it.
Cause there's some people it'seasy for some people.
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_ (20:49):
hmm.
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_1 (20:50):
a problem.
So create some partnership orsynergy with someone who.
Has a good time doing it.
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025 (20:57):
Yeah.
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_ (20:59):
is around this idea of vicarious
learning, which actually Henrikwrites about quite a bit.
And that is an idea of learnfrom others, watch other people.
So find someone that you likeand respect, not someone you
think, Ooh, that person takesadvantage of other people or is
a jerk, someone that youactually like and respect, and
(21:20):
maybe not just one person, butseveral and watch them.
What do they do?
How do they speak?
How do they bring their requestsup?
How do they not be pushy butstill get their point across?
You have to be a littledetective to see.
Okay, what are they doing?
And then ask the question.
What of those things might Ibring into my leadership?
(21:43):
What we call
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025 (21:43):
Yeah.
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
Mm
deborah-ancona_1_01- (21:48):
experiment a little.
If you don't change, thennothing else is going to change.
So it, it doesn't have to be youcome in the next day and you're
a ferocious negotiator.
It's little steps that you cantake to say, oh, well, this
person just calmly presented thedata as a different point of
(22:08):
view.
Didn't get riled, didn't, youknow, very calm.
Okay, why don't I try that thenext time I'm in a conversation.
So little mini steps that canperhaps bring you into a better
a better stance on on advocacy.
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025 (22:26):
Yeah.
Such, such excellent and easy toimplement ideas.
I, I know you know, just goingback to what you were saying at
the beginning about how can youreframe this as seeing you.
Advocating for your team ordoing it for other people.
I know a lot of the research,particularly around female
leaders, says that, you know, ifwe can frame it from the
(22:49):
perspective of how we aresupporting others, that, that
tends to be a little bit moremotivating or easy, easier to
implement.
And then the piece about findingsomeone that you like and
observing what they are doingthat That's just excellent in
terms of having that example andalso, you know, getting to your
(23:10):
leadership signature, which Ilove that concept.
I saw you just did a series onLinkedIn about that as well.
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-20 (23:16):
That.
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_1 (23:16):
And I, you know,
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025 (23:18):
our advocacy,
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_13 (23:19):
if we can find a way to ground it
in our values and know the why.
For our advocacy, whether thatis to support our team or
whether that is to act in linewith our values, that can really
make it a lot easier, getforward and do that advocacy
(23:40):
that's necessary to be theleader that you need to be, be
the leader that you were chosento be by your organization.
deborah-ancona_1_01 (23:47):
Absolutely.
And just a shorthand on that.
The way that we think about itis if you're having problems,
there's kind of three not onlywhat I just talked about, but
sort of three ways to thinkabout it.
One is from either or to both.,If you think I'm either good at
inquiry or advocacy, you'regoing to pick inquiry if that's
(24:09):
what you like.
But we live in a world of bothand, you can still be the nice
leader who listens andempathizes and participate.
And You can add advocacy tosomething that you do.
So it's both
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_ (24:25):
hmm.
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2 (24:26):
either or.
It's from hot to medium.
Again, if advocacy ornegotiating triggers you in some
way, present it or think aboutit in a different way that
doesn't feel as negative.
And then
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_13 (24:40):
Mm hmm.
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-202 (24:41):
what you were just talking about,
which is from self to other.
Make it not just about you, butabout how you help your team.
It's great that
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_1 (24:48):
Oh, those are great.
It's great that you shortenedthat into three, three tips that
are easy to remember.
Thank you for that.
So one of the themes that we'rereally focused on this year and
strong on strong leader serve isthe theme of overwhelmed due to
being overloaded with work.
(25:09):
And a lot of our leaders facethat.
And as I mentioned, you know,they're compassionate and
driven, so they're not onlyconcerned about getting the
business results with all thiswork that's being piled on them,
particularly.
For our middle manager listenersbut they're also concerned about
taking care of their people.
So I'm, I'm curious, gettingback to the skill of relating
(25:32):
how do you think the leaders canuse that skill of relating to
create a culture that reducesburnout both for themselves and
for their team?
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-20 (25:43):
Yeah.
So I mean, this is a hard oneand so a few things but, as I
mentioned before, we're lookingat this idea of, of family
ghosts, or I'm looking at thisidea of family ghosts.
So these attitudes and behaviorsfrom childhood that bring us
into that we bring into ourexecutive role.
And for those who are all aboutinquiry, it's often about being.
(26:06):
the care bear or pleasingothers, or that's kind of what
they carry with them.
terms of workload, sometimesit's the perfectionism that
really gets in the way of havinga burnout.
And so
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-202 (26:22):
Mm-hmm
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2 (26:23):
things to think about is what is good
enough?
We don't want to push people tobe perfect at everything.
It's just
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-202 (26:31):
Mm-hmm
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025 (26:31):
too much for us.
It's too much for our team.
So what is it that is okay.
We have to Excel on this andthat's a prioritization.
Can you prioritize this?
We really have to get perfect.
But all these other things, whatis good enough?
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-202 (26:46):
Mm-hmm Mm-hmm
deborah-ancona_1_01-28- (26:48):
between good enough and perfect can
sometimes be what pushes us overthe edge.
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-202 (26:54):
Mm-hmm Mm-hmm
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-20 (26:55):
thing is modeling good behavior.
I was teaching a group yesterdayand one of the guys said, well,
I don't answer any emails aftereight o'clock and I don't answer
any emails over the weekendbecause I want my people to know
that not what we're going to do.
And if I just talk about noburnout and dah, dah, dah, but.
I'm on all weekend and allnight, then that sends a very
(27:19):
different message than the oneI'm trying to communicate.
So you
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-202 (27:22):
Mm-hmm
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_ (27:23):
in terms of relating, you are the
role model that
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-202 (27:26):
Mm-hmm
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2 (27:27):
toward to say, how do we function here?
And so you have to make sureyour behavior is, is in line
with that.
Also goal setting.
Don't set goals for your peoplethat are impossible to get
because there again, Oh yeah, Iwant work life balance and so on
and so forth.
But if you don't get this, this,this and this done, you're Then
(27:47):
it's you're not a good employee.
Well, you're setting up thecircumstances that require work.
That is, is
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-202 (27:55):
Mm-hmm
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_1 (27:55):
a high
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-202 (27:56):
Mm-hmm
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025 (27:57):
And some of it as I said, is
prioritizing, figuring out andasking people, what is it that
we don't have to do?
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-202 (28:05):
Mm-hmm Mm-hmm
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-202 (28:07):
What is it that we can take off our
plates?
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-202 (28:10):
Right?
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025 (28:11):
get someone else to do or work
around or get AI to do.
I mean, AI
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-202 (28:17):
Mm-hmm
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_1 (28:18):
a
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-202 (28:18):
Mm-hmm
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-20 (28:19):
these days.
I use it all the time now.
Oh, summarize this, or I justwrote this, fix it up a little
bit.
Or it's such
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-202 (28:26):
Mm-hmm
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-20 (28:27):
saver of time that figure out what you
don't have to do or what.
What you can get help with andthen finally, I think the thing
is to negotiate up, right?
You don't have to takeeverything that your boss says
you have to do Say, you knowwhat?
We're already doing this thisand this so I know you want us
(28:48):
to do this, but where do you seeus dropping something?
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-202 (28:53):
Right.
Right.
And your prioritization, youknow, where, what can come off
so that if this needs to beprioritized.
deborah-ancona_1_01-28 (29:00):
Exactly.
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025 (29:01):
Yeah.
Mm-hmm
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-202 (29:02):
push on back up rather than just
accepting.
And again, people pleasers orperfectionists are going to want
to please the senior leader, butthen you're stuck having all
that extra work to do.
So how do you set boundaries?
Absolutely.
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-202 (29:18):
right.
Which again, gets back to yourvalues, gets back to
organizational values as, aswell to help set those
priorities.
So, yeah, thank you for that.
Well, I, I know there's one moreskill in the skill of relating
and, and that is Connecting inaddition to inquiry and
advocacy.
So it's not just about thoseinternal team dynamics that we
(29:39):
were talking about, but alsoabout those external networks of
support that we, we started ourconversation on.
How can leaders intentionallycultivate a network of
confidence to help them addresschallenges like disconnection
and burnout?
And why is this so essential?
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-20 (29:57):
Yeah, so I, I'd say that the external
connections are not just abouthaving someone to discuss with.
I
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_13 (30:03):
Mm hmm.
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_ (30:04):
I, I think you want to, in your
mind, think about what do youneed an external network for?
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_13 (30:11):
Mm hmm.
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-20 (30:12):
about all right, I want someone at my
fingertips I need career advice.
I have technology questions, sonow Jenny, I can't possibly keep
up with everything.
The guy who taught an AI course.
He's I like him and I'm whateverhe needs.
I'm happy to give him because Iwant him there when I have a
(30:34):
question or a query or
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_13 (30:35):
Mm hmm.
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_ (30:36):
He actually is a great.
connector to a whole communitythat I don't know.
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_ (30:42):
hmm.
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025 (30:44):
who is gonna answer your technology
questions?
Who are potential partners foryou in the work that you're
you're doing?
Who do you need as a key advisorstrategy or other things that
that you might need?
What customers?
Do you stay in touch with sothat you can keep your fingers
on the pulse of changingcustomer demand?
(31:06):
So think
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025 (31:07):
Yeah.
Mm hmm.
Mm
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025 (31:08):
and what are the needs that you have
and then figure out how tocreate that network.
Satya Nadella is my go to rolemodel on this.
He, every day, every day, he hastwo meetings.
With this is a man who has a lotto do.
So just, if we
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_ (31:28):
hmm.
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-20 (31:28):
okay, we don't have any time for this.
Two meetings a day with otherCEOs to
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_1 (31:34):
Ah,
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-202 (31:35):
what are you working on?
What are you thinking with?
Who are you working with?
What are the issues you seecoming forward?
Because when you have thatexternal connectivity, it's
easier.
for you to then invent new waysof working, for you to envision
where, what is the future andwhere are we going?
If you
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-202 (31:54):
right.
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-202 (31:54):
from scratch without that external
input, you're behind.
And so
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_13 (31:59):
Mm hmm.
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-202 (32:00):
than thinking about it as, oh my
goodness, this is sapping all mytime, I don't have time for
this, reframe, this is
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_13 (32:08):
Mm hmm.
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025 (32:08):
for me to do my work and make the
work easier.
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_13 (32:12):
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
This is an accelerant, almost,in your work.
deborah-ancona_1_01 (32:16):
absolutely.
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_13 (32:17):
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2 (32:23):
world?
Stepping out and asking peopleand talking to people is, is one
important way to do this.
And it's not just for you, it'sfor your team.
fact, think about much morerelating and sensemaking and
connectivity you have, if yourwhole team is going out.
And not just you.
And so you have to be focused onit.
(32:45):
You have to not just go, Oh,everybody should.
Okay.
This week, everybody go andinterview a customer about what
they like and don't like aboutthis new product.
Okay.
Everybody go out, back.
So you've done your sensing.
Now your sense making.
What did we learn?
How does that impact ourprojects?
How does that impact the workwe're going to be doing going
(33:07):
forward?
Okay, now we have to presentthat to senior leaders so that
they give us buy in.
So, okay, let's get together,get a presentation and go out
and give it to several seniorleaders so that they're aware of
what we're doing.
And therefore we get more buyin, we get more resources, we
get more of other things.
So I think that This externalcommunication is just pivotal
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_13 (33:33):
Mm hmm.
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-202 (33:34):
with all the other leadership
capabilities that you're askedto, to have.
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025 (33:41):
Yeah, yeah.
And, you know, like, you talkedabout You know, the connection,
the relating is, is beneficial,not only from all the data that
you're taking in and how it canaccelerate your business, but
also beneficial for us as peopleto, to connect to other humans.
And
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025 (33:59):
And to learn.
I mean, the, the, the essenceof, of leading these days is
learning because we were livingin this fast changing world.
Everything's changing.
We need to learn.
And so sending people out tokind of put their fingers on the
pulse of all kinds of differenttrends.
Okay, we want to use a I, buthow What does that even mean?
(34:21):
So if we want to use it for aparticular product, maybe we go
out and say, okay, who's usingit in this way so that we can
learn from them?
And then we come in, okay, whatdid everybody learn and how do
we harness that learning our ownwork?
So it's connected to what we'regoing to do, what we have to
learn and making new thingshappen.
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025 (34:43):
Yeah, that, that's a key point too.
And, you know, I'm a bigproponent of being intentional
in all that we do.
And, and what you just saidabout, you know, it, it being
focused on.
You know, we are all going to gotalk to a customer this week
and, and bring it back and talkabout what we learned and how it
integrates, and then maybe nextweek it's something else, but
(35:04):
having that intention behindwhat you're doing as opposed to,
yes, you may just get benefit bytalking to people regardless
and, and kind of rolling thedice and you might glean some
information that ends up beinghelpful, but can be so much.
More helpful when you do havethat intention behind it and it
can really accelerate your teamand your business
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-20 (35:25):
Well,
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_ (35:25):
that way.
Mm.
Mm.
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-202 (35:28):
have data on that, too that just
because the team increases itscommunication outside, that does
not lead to better performance.
It is.
Specific kinds of communicationsagain to learn about partnering,
about how they do something elsethat relates to what you're
(35:50):
trying to do, that's what makesthe difference.
So you're absolutely right tofocus in on that intentionality.
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025 (35:57):
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's, that's great.
And it brought another questionto mind.
It just the since you have, youknow, written books, I'm, I'm
guessing people may take thisconcept and, and maybe, you
know, Apply it in a way thatdoesn't lead to results.
Like you were just talkingabout, you know, just taking one
(36:17):
piece of it and and increasingcommunication, but not being
intentional about it.
Are there is there maybe 1 or 2particular.
Maybe missteps that you've seenbeing made with the concept,
either in X teams or in otherwritings that you would advise
people against.
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-20 (36:37):
Yeah, I do think that you've kind of
hit on it.
Just because we're saying Xteams, which means X stands for
externally active
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_13 (36:46):
Mm hmm.
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2 (36:47):
before in.
I think random externalizationjust talking to people is is not
very helpful.
I also think the timing of itright.
So if You have, you have todefine what's our priority right
now.
So everybody's going to go talkto a customer.
Everybody's going to go talk toa competitor or whatever it is.
(37:09):
It's focused.
it's timely.
Okay, we're gonna take the nextweek to do this, and then we're
gonna switch gears and harvestwhat we learned.
It's not
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_13 (37:19):
Mm hmm.
Mm
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025 (37:20):
all over the place all of the time
because that gets chaotic.
And you're
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_ (37:24):
hmm.
Mm hmm.
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-202 (37:26):
that harvesting.
And so the harvesting is soimportant.
I've seen so many teams.
Oh, we're doing this, this,this, and this, and then we, we
just, it, it evaporates becausethere is not that coming
together.
And the team still exists.
The team still has to processthings, and you have to build
the team, and so it's not justout, it's out and in, and learn
(37:49):
and process.
teri-schmidt_1_01-28 (37:50):
Excellent.
Excellent point.
Yeah, that, that second step ofthe harvesting.
I can see that being criticallyimportant.
Well, As I mentioned a fewtimes, you know, I work
primarily with compassionatedriven leaders, and I'd love to
hear if you had one piece ofadvice to offer them what would
it be?
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_ (38:10):
So I think it would be that, If
you're compassionate and thenyou care about others, that's
really great, but you have toremember that the others
includes you.
think that would be my advice,that sometimes the compassion
bleeds over into excess work,excess pleasing, excess inquiry,
(38:33):
and you have to remember that ifyou're burnt out, you're not a
good leader.
If you're not doing thatadvocacy or having someone else,
again, if you can't have someoneelse do it, you're losing.
And in game theory, if you'rethe cooperative and you're
against a competitive person,then you lose.
(38:55):
Right?
So just keep the compassion.
Oh, my goodness.
We are so in need.
What we want, don't want is moretoxic leaders who don't care
about
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_13 (39:05):
Mm hmm.
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_ (39:07):
do and being mean to people.
Compassion is great.
But if compassion is going to belinked to results, then one has
to be careful to just give upeverything before you, you got
it.
So you know, you're important.
Give yourself time off when youneed it.
Give yourself rest to thinkabout what's next on the agenda.
(39:30):
Give yourself some lessons inadvocacy so that it's this
again, both and not either or.
teri-schmidt_1_01-28 (39:40):
Wonderful.
Excellent reminder.
Thank you for that.
And if people would like tolearn more about you and your
research and your work, where isthe best place for them to go
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025 (39:51):
I'm actually gonna, this brought on
a question.
So before I get to that,
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025 (39:54):
work?
deborah-ancona_1_01-28 (39:54):
actually pivot and ask you the question.
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-20 (39:56):
course.
Yeah,
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025 (39:57):
I'm saying resonate with what you've
heard?
Does there seem to be this kindof imbalance of other over self?
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-202 (40:06):
there, there does.
And, you know, we I've talkedfrequently about strong leaders
serve, they don't rescue.
And so you know, when I firsthad.
The podcast strong leader serveand have the business strong
leaders serve.
And then I started hearing kindof rumblings that we don't want
leaders to serve because thatleads to burnout.
(40:28):
So I really had to do someinvestigation.
What does serve mean to me?
And it is and it's very alignedwith how I define leadership and
that is courageously using yourtalents to make a way for others
to courageously use theirs.
And so that's what I mean aboutserve.
It's, it's.
It's not about jumping in anytime they're having a problem,
(40:48):
but instead finding whatcapacity within them enables
them to solve that problem andwhat Scaffolding they need to be
able to be able to solve thatproblem for themselves.
So it can take a little bit moretime up front, but it creates a
culture where they aren'tnecessarily code, you know, it's
(41:10):
not a codependent culture on youwhere you're getting burned out.
So yeah, I would, I woulddefinitely say that it
resonates.
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-20 (41:17):
Okay, great.
Well, I love that.
I love that perspective.
I think that's a reallyimportant perspective.
So I'm glad that you're You're
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025 (41:24):
Well,
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-202 (41:24):
that in there.
That's great.
Anyway, to learn more, I guess.
LinkedIn would be one place.
I post quite a bit.
Pretty frequently, as you say,where I'm posting right now on
leadership
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_13 (41:34):
Mm
deborah-ancona_1_01-28- (41:35):
Another is I'm sure Henrik mentioned it
at X lead dot co, which is wherewe have a series of leadership
development tools and productsas well as access to some of the
articles and books and blogs andso on that
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_ (41:53):
hmm.
Mm hmm.
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025 (41:54):
out on a regular basis.
Think the other thing is, atjust go to M.
I.
T.
Sloan, which is where I
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_ (42:02):
Hmm.
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025 (42:03):
and you can look me up.
And again, there access to anumber of articles and podcasts
and other things.
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025 (42:11):
Well, excellent.
Well, I'll make sure that allgets linked in the show notes,
of course, so that people canfind that
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-20 (42:16):
Thank you.
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_1 (42:17):
But I, I know you're very busy and I
do really appreciate your timefor this conversation.
I know that it will be a benefitto many leaders who are
listening.
So thank you very much.
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-20 (42:29):
Well, thank you very much.
Well, I hope you enjoyed thatepisode.
Thank you again to Debra forcoming on, spending time with us
and sharing her wisdom andexperiences about leading with
inquiry and advocacy.
We talked about a lot, and Ihope you're able to take at
least one item from ourconversation and think about how
(42:54):
you can put it into actiontoday.
For me, it's going to bethinking about how I can
reframe, how I view advocacy andthe power that that can have in
my leadership and life.
Have a wonderful week.
I look forward to being backtogether with you next week.
Do you sometimes struggle tobuild trusting relationships in
your workplace, especially withthe distance of remote and
hybrid work?
You're not alone.
In this episode, I talked withMIT Professor Debra an Kona
about the essential skills ofinquiry, advocacy and connecting
that leaders can use to fostertrust both inside and outside
(00:23):
their teams.
Debra an Kona is the founder ofthe MIT Leadership Center.
Her work centers on theindividual leadership
capabilities, team dynamics andorganizational structures that
enable innovation in anexponentially changing world.
Her work also looks at how earlyfamily dynamics impact leader's
(00:43):
ability to change.
Her work has been published intop academic journals and
managerial outlets like HBR andSMR.
She has consulted toorganizations around the world
in pharma tech as well asnonprofits.
We had a great conversationabout building trust and how to
(01:04):
more effectively lead.
So let's get into it.
I am Terry Schmidt, executiveand leadership coach at Strong
Leaders Serve, where we supportleaders in holding the tension
of caring about the humans theywork with while driving positive
business results.
And this is The Strong LeadersServe podcast.
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-20 (02:18):
welcome Deborah to the strong leader
serve podcast.
I'm looking forward to ourconversation today and honored
to have you on the show.
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-20 (02:26):
Well, thanks for having me.
I'm excited to be here and tolearn more about what you are
interested in and what yourfollowers are interested in.
teri-schmidt_1_01-28 (02:37):
Wonderful.
Well, as I mentioned, I did havea conversation recently with
Henrik, your coauthor as well.
And, and that was fascinating.
And I look forward to digging inspecifically to one element of X
teams.
As I mentioned on the episodewith him, I was fascinated by
the book and highly recommendedto everyone who is interested.
(02:59):
And he mentioned also, yeah, ofcourse, of course.
And he mentioned also theadditional resources that you
have available like thesimulation and the feedback
tool.
And so hopefully by this timepeople have checked that out,
but if not, that is a, anotherreminder to do so, but I'd love
to hear your speech.
Specific story, you know, what,what was the moment or
(03:22):
experience that you would sayfirst inspired you to study how
teams operate and succeed?
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-20 (03:30):
Yeah, it's an interesting question and
one that I actually haven'tasked myself very much, but if I
stop for a moment and thinkabout it, I think the first
moment was when I startedstudying psychology in college
and learning about teams and wasjust stunned At the impact that
teams can have on the peoplethat are in those teams
(03:51):
silencing themselves, havingsome people take over some
people being scapegoated theidea that we actually shift the
way we see things because ofbeing in a group.
So there's this conformity pushin, in the team.
And so I became very interestedin, in those dynamics.
I'm also very interested infamily and families and family
(04:14):
systems.
And a family is also like ateam, so it has its own
dynamics.
So when I learned that you couldactually make a living studying
teams and doing research andteaching, I said, oh, wow, this
is this is exciting.
And interestingly, a lot of thethings that I learned early on,
And it turns out not to becorrect when we study teams in
(04:36):
the business context.
And so it's been a very funjourney, kind of following the
data.
So I would say that there's aninnate fascination with what is
going on in teams.
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-202 (04:48):
Right, right.
Yeah.
And now you've piqued myinterest.
I'm a, I'm a big data person.
So I'd love to hear if there'sone that you can share.
One thing that you did learnabout teams that you then came
to learn wasn't.
Actually accurate, or maybe notas accurate as you originally
thought.
Yeah,
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-20 (05:12):
study that we did looked at all the
things that we had learned aboutwhat makes teams effective.
goals, clear roles, synergy,trust, all of these things.
And the first study that we didwas of or that I did was of some
sales teams in thetelecommunications industry.
And when we looked, it turnedout that teams where people
(05:37):
liked each other.
Thought that they were doingreally, really well.
And when they followed all thoserules of clear goals and clear
roles, et cetera, they thoughtthey were doing really well.
They were high performers.
But when we looked at actualrevenue attainment, Those same
dimensions did not hold water.
(05:58):
It did not predict revenue.
And that, that was a reallyscary thing for me.
That was way back my, mydissertation and not having data
that doesn't support yourhypothesis is not good, but
luckily we got it publishedbecause we presented an
alternative view, which is.
What the X teams ended up being,which is this idea of out before
(06:18):
in that it's not just how teamsoperate internally, but how they
reach out across theirboundaries that predict
performance.
Yeah, and
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025 (06:27):
that, that is fascinating.
And,
deborah-ancona_1_01- (06:29):
mentioned,
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_13 (06:30):
as I mentioned, the leaders I work
with, we call them compassionatedriven leaders.
So those two characteristics,and I could see how if you favor
one over the other.
So if you favor, you know,Building that strong sense of,
I'm not going to say belonging,but of liking each other within
(06:50):
the team.
And aren't necessarily asfocused on the driving, the
business results, which mightrequire you to go out before in,
or, or does require to go outbefore.
And I could see how you couldget caught in that place where
your team has excellentengagement, but isn't driving
the business results,
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025 (07:10):
and we have a lot of data.
You're a data fan.
That's good.
That suggests that teams thatare not externally oriented
absolutely do not do as well,even though people like each
other.
If you're not kind of in syncwith your environment, then the
team can really go down.
negative productivity, But thegood news is that if you're
(07:31):
actively engaged with yourexternal environment, doing what
Henrik talked about,ambassadorship, task
coordination and sense making,You are more successful.
And when you are moresuccessful, then people feel
good about the team and abouteach other and about their
performance.
And so it's kind of a backwardsinto.
(07:53):
good in the team.
So we don't want people to feel
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-202 (07:55):
right.
Yeah,
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-202 (07:58):
that both, both the external activity
and internal sense ofsatisfaction.
Yeah.
teri-schmidt_1_01-28 (08:06):
excellent.
It's it's not one over theother.
You can have both.
But like you said, it maybe itis about that order in terms of
the going out and beingexternally focused before coming
in.
But but both are very important.
deborah-ancona_1_01 (08:21):
absolutely.
And we talk a lot about theexternal, but you're absolutely
right.
Keeping that balance isextremely important.
teri-schmidt_1_01-2 (08:28):
Definitely.
Well, I'd love to focus in onthe leadership model that you
talk a lot about in X teams.
You talk about the value ofcreating a distributed
leadership model.
And I appreciate I'm curious,particularly in the business
environment we're in right now,what makes that so important?
Yeah.
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025 (08:53):
and ambiguous.
But the world we're living intoday is what we refer to as an
exponentially changing world.
That is, it is all of thoseother things, but the new
wrinkle as it were, is speed.
not just that we're going fast,but we're accelerating.
It's going faster and faster andfaster and faster.
And you just have to look in theworld.
(09:15):
AI is going in one direction.
All of a sudden there's somedisruption and we're going in
another direction so that speed.
Is a critical part of ourexternal environment.
So in that kind of environment,what you don't want to do is
have just leadership at the topeight.
It takes too long for leadersfor it to go up and come down
(09:36):
and Because of the complexityand the need to move so quickly,
the person at the top doesn'tnecessarily have all the
information and expertise that'sneeded.
So you need what we refer to asdistributed leadership, by which
we simply mean leadership atevery level at the top and at
the bottom.
And so In that case, you wantpeople at all levels to make
(09:59):
decisions.
You want the people who haveaccess to the customers, to the
technology, to the marketplace.
Those are the people who youwant in a decision making,
making mode.
That said, it's not that we'regetting rid of senior
leadership.
Senior leadership has a pivotalrole to play.
And one of the articles that.
(10:20):
I wrote with colleagues onnimble leadership.
The senior level is what we callthe architects.
They have to architect theculture and the structure and
the processes that get all ofthose other leaders aligned.
In the same direction.
they're all following the samestrategy.
(10:40):
They're all moving in in jointstep with one another.
And so the idea is to haveleaders in sync and having the
people who have the informationand the expertise and the timing
right to be the ones makingdecisions.
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025 (10:58):
Yeah.
You know, I love that.
And it, it brings up you know,some, challenges that I've heard
from executives.
That I work with, and you know,they particularly new executives
who are very concerned about nothaving direct access to, for
example, the frontline workersanymore and not having having
(11:19):
that data and feeling that thatis a lack.
And I just.
I think it's reassuring to hearyou talk about nimble
leadership.
And it's not that they don'tneed that data.
They don't need that directaccess, but it sounds like their
role is shifted to the pointthat if you have this
(11:39):
distributed leadership modelthey can operate in a way that
that isn't as much of a lackbecause they have leaders at the
other levels that do have accessto that information.
Did I understand that correctly?
Mm hmm.
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_ (11:56):
so it means that senior leaders are
not the sole decision makers,and that can also feel
uncomfortable.
Well, wait a second.
I'm seeding power at some level,but they are creating what we
call the game board ofleadership.
On which X teams and individualleaders are are working So a
(12:16):
very pivotal role, but you alsodoesn't mean that they have to
be out of.
The information there stillcould be communication that
links up to the top or momentscheck ins.
Okay, what are you working on?
What's going on?
So that they do have a sense ofwhat's going on.
They don't have to put a barrierbetween what they're doing and
(12:38):
lower level leaders.
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-202 (12:40):
Right, right.
But it's not necessarily all onthem.
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-202 (12:43):
It's not on them and it's not daily
keeping your fingers on the onthe pulse of what's going on.
It may be just periodic checkins.
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-202 (12:53):
Right, right.
Exactly.
Well, you know, getting into thecontinuing on that with the
distributed leadership model.
I know there are four skillsthat you focus in on, but the
one that I really wanted to honein on today, because I think
it's critical for the leadersthat listen is that leadership
skill of relating.
So I wonder if you would definerelating for me and talk about
(13:16):
what makes it so important,particularly in a organization
where they are using thedistributed leadership model
that is full of X teams.
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-20 (13:25):
Sure.
Well, so very simple definition.
We could get into a lot ofcomplexity.
But us, very simply, it'screating trusting relationships
with others, not just in yourteam, but also in your
organization and in the externalecosystem.
So it's that X team philosophyof relating inside and it's
(13:48):
important because first of all,in this new world where we're
having to interact with a lot ofdifferent kinds of people
different on many, manydimensions.
And so being able to Act in thatkind of environment requires
some relating skills.
And it's also important becausewe have to, as I said, move
(14:10):
quickly.
So that means you need toquickly be able to understand
and empathize, have that inquirywork, understand the other
people, but also advocate andnegotiate.
For yourself as well as coachingpeople.
So if you have much moredistributed innovation and
distributed leadership, thenpeople are sometimes doing work
(14:34):
that that Isn't necessarilycomfortable for them, or it
might be new for them.
And so this coaching capacity.
So rather than doing, you'rehelping a lot of other people do
the work.
And that's a form of relating asis again, creating these
external networks so that youcan partner so that you can
learn so that you can coordinateIn a nimble way, you have to be
(14:58):
able to move quickly and thatmeans being able to up the phone
or send the email or whateverway we're currently
communicating and say, Hey, Ihave an idea.
Do you want to do this?
How can we do this?
And, and moving very quickly.
I often, show a video ofJennifer Hyman, who's the
founder of Rent the Runway, andshe tells this great story of
(15:23):
they're thinking about this neworganizational form, this new
business model, and her roommateco founder says, Well, who
should we speak to about this?
And said, Well, Diane vonFurstenberg.
And the roommate says, What doyou know her?
And so she says, No, not at all.
But they They
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_13 (15:43):
Mm hmm.
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025 (15:46):
von Furstenberg in order and they
get her and they're invited to ameeting and she goes to the
meeting three days after she hasthis idea is this quick go
picture idea to create arelationship so that you can
understand what's the customer'sperspective?
What do I need to do to change?
And that rests on a fundamentalboundary or fundamental base of
(16:11):
relating.
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_133 (16:12):
I love that story.
And in your mention of, youknow, both inquiry and advocacy,
I'd love to hear a little bitmore about that.
And I, as I understand it, Ioften see leaders who have a
preference for one over theother.
So I'd, I'd love to hear.
First, kind of a little bit moreabout your definition of what
inquiry looks like and whatadvocacy looks like, but then
(16:35):
second, why is it important tohave the balance between those
two as you are buildingrelationships and building
effective teams?
Mm
deborah-ancona_1_01-28- (16:46):
inquiry refers to an ability really to
do what psychologists calledperspective taking to put
yourself in someone else'sshoes.
Can I understand the world fromyour shoes?
if we're in negotiation, then Ineed to say, well, why do you
want what you want so that youcan get deeper down into
(17:07):
understanding the motives andwhat's driving the other person?
That's really, really important.
But leaders can't just inquire,they also have their own agendas
and they need to be able to andnegotiate for those agendas,
advocate for what they think isimportant.
(17:27):
So just as, I might reach out toyou and say, why are you working
so hard to get X done?
also need to say, and this iswhy I think why is so important.
This is, this is myunderstanding.
These are my data.
This is my rationale.
This is my experience.
This is why I am.
And that affords just a placeof, of dialogue.
(17:51):
It's
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_ (17:51):
hmm.
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_1 (17:52):
I don't like what you say and you
don't like what I say.
So we're done.
And we're just in conflict.
You need to be able to createsome space for dialogue.
And that's why you need both ofthose things.
Okay.
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025 (18:03):
Yeah.
For those leaders that, youknow, maybe have a preference
for inquiry and are verycurious.
We've, we've done, you know,several episodes about curiosity
and about perspective taking.
So for those leaders who arereally comfortable.
In that, but maybe not ascomfortable with the advocacy
piece or maybe a little bitquieter about it.
(18:26):
Have you seen you know, bestpractices or anything that can
help leaders get more in abalanced place?
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-20 (18:33):
well, it's a great question, and I
actually work with a lot ofexecutives and a lot of female
executives.
I know you have a
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_13 (18:42):
Mm hmm.
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025 (18:43):
the room, and I think there are
several ways that I would lookat that.
The first is sometimes thepeople who are into inquiry
actually have this idea thatadvocacy is bad.
Mm hmm.
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_13 (18:55):
Mm
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-202 (18:56):
it's
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_ (18:56):
hmm.
Mm
deborah-ancona_1_01-28 (18:57):
selfish.
It's taking up too much room.
It's pushy.
It's political.
And that's bad.
And
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_ (19:05):
hmm.
Mm
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-202 (19:07):
that is an issue, the first thing I
suggest, I'm a huge, huge fan ofreframe.
How can
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_ (19:15):
hmm.
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
deborah-ancona_1_01-28 (19:17):
selfish.
I'm, I'm pushy.
I'm political to I'mrepresenting my team and the
needs of my team.
That's what I'm doing,particularly for women.
It's not just about me.
It's also about, it's from me toother.
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-202 (19:31):
Right.
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
Right, right.
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
Mm
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025 (19:38):
And in order to do that, I need to
get my point of view acrossbecause that's doing my job.
It's not being political.
It's actually doing my job.
Or need to clarify ourpriorities and interest because
otherwise someone else is goingto get the power and we're going
(19:58):
to lose out.
So not doing this is net netloss.
So thinking about different waysto To reframe what advocacy is
and maybe even get rid of theword.
Get rid of the word.
If, if, if, if advocacy orpoliticizing, whatever, it's.
Triggers you in some way thatgets you in a negative path.
(20:21):
Then just think about itdifferently.
I'm representing my team and allthe work that we've done in
order to improve the outcome.
That's what this is about.
Very different.
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_13 (20:31):
Mm hmm.
Mm
deborah-ancona_1_01-28- (20:33):
doesn't really work in the spirit of
distributed leadership.
someone else to do your, youradvocacy or your negotiating.
You might come bring two of you.
One does the inquiry and theother does the advocacy for it.
Cause there's some people it'seasy for some people.
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_ (20:49):
hmm.
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_1 (20:50):
a problem.
So create some partnership orsynergy with someone who.
Has a good time doing it.
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025 (20:57):
Yeah.
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_ (20:59):
is around this idea of vicarious
learning, which actually Henrikwrites about quite a bit.
And that is an idea of learnfrom others, watch other people.
So find someone that you likeand respect, not someone you
think, Ooh, that person takesadvantage of other people or is
a jerk, someone that youactually like and respect, and
(21:20):
maybe not just one person, butseveral and watch them.
What do they do?
How do they speak?
How do they bring their requestsup?
How do they not be pushy butstill get their point across?
You have to be a littledetective to see.
Okay, what are they doing?
And then ask the question.
What of those things might Ibring into my leadership?
(21:43):
What we call
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025 (21:43):
Yeah.
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
Mm
deborah-ancona_1_01- (21:48):
experiment a little.
If you don't change, thennothing else is going to change.
So it, it doesn't have to be youcome in the next day and you're
a ferocious negotiator.
It's little steps that you cantake to say, oh, well, this
person just calmly presented thedata as a different point of
(22:08):
view.
Didn't get riled, didn't, youknow, very calm.
Okay, why don't I try that thenext time I'm in a conversation.
So little mini steps that canperhaps bring you into a better
a better stance on on advocacy.
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025 (22:26):
Yeah.
Such, such excellent and easy toimplement ideas.
I, I know you know, just goingback to what you were saying at
the beginning about how can youreframe this as seeing you.
Advocating for your team ordoing it for other people.
I know a lot of the research,particularly around female
leaders, says that, you know, ifwe can frame it from the
(22:49):
perspective of how we aresupporting others, that, that
tends to be a little bit moremotivating or easy, easier to
implement.
And then the piece about findingsomeone that you like and
observing what they are doingthat That's just excellent in
terms of having that example andalso, you know, getting to your
(23:10):
leadership signature, which Ilove that concept.
I saw you just did a series onLinkedIn about that as well.
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-20 (23:16):
That.
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_1 (23:16):
And I, you know,
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025 (23:18):
our advocacy,
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_13 (23:19):
if we can find a way to ground it
in our values and know the why.
For our advocacy, whether thatis to support our team or
whether that is to act in linewith our values, that can really
make it a lot easier, getforward and do that advocacy
(23:40):
that's necessary to be theleader that you need to be, be
the leader that you were chosento be by your organization.
deborah-ancona_1_01 (23:47):
Absolutely.
And just a shorthand on that.
The way that we think about itis if you're having problems,
there's kind of three not onlywhat I just talked about, but
sort of three ways to thinkabout it.
One is from either or to both.,If you think I'm either good at
inquiry or advocacy, you'regoing to pick inquiry if that's
(24:09):
what you like.
But we live in a world of bothand, you can still be the nice
leader who listens andempathizes and participate.
And You can add advocacy tosomething that you do.
So it's both
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_ (24:25):
hmm.
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2 (24:26):
either or.
It's from hot to medium.
Again, if advocacy ornegotiating triggers you in some
way, present it or think aboutit in a different way that
doesn't feel as negative.
And then
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_13 (24:40):
Mm hmm.
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-202 (24:41):
what you were just talking about,
which is from self to other.
Make it not just about you, butabout how you help your team.
It's great that
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_1 (24:48):
Oh, those are great.
It's great that you shortenedthat into three, three tips that
are easy to remember.
Thank you for that.
So one of the themes that we'rereally focused on this year and
strong on strong leader serve isthe theme of overwhelmed due to
being overloaded with work.
(25:09):
And a lot of our leaders facethat.
And as I mentioned, you know,they're compassionate and
driven, so they're not onlyconcerned about getting the
business results with all thiswork that's being piled on them,
particularly.
For our middle manager listenersbut they're also concerned about
taking care of their people.
So I'm, I'm curious, gettingback to the skill of relating
(25:32):
how do you think the leaders canuse that skill of relating to
create a culture that reducesburnout both for themselves and
for their team?
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-20 (25:43):
Yeah.
So I mean, this is a hard oneand so a few things but, as I
mentioned before, we're lookingat this idea of, of family
ghosts, or I'm looking at thisidea of family ghosts.
So these attitudes and behaviorsfrom childhood that bring us
into that we bring into ourexecutive role.
And for those who are all aboutinquiry, it's often about being.
(26:06):
the care bear or pleasingothers, or that's kind of what
they carry with them.
terms of workload, sometimesit's the perfectionism that
really gets in the way of havinga burnout.
And so
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-202 (26:22):
Mm-hmm
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2 (26:23):
things to think about is what is good
enough?
We don't want to push people tobe perfect at everything.
It's just
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-202 (26:31):
Mm-hmm
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025 (26:31):
too much for us.
It's too much for our team.
So what is it that is okay.
We have to Excel on this andthat's a prioritization.
Can you prioritize this?
We really have to get perfect.
But all these other things, whatis good enough?
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-202 (26:46):
Mm-hmm Mm-hmm
deborah-ancona_1_01-28- (26:48):
between good enough and perfect can
sometimes be what pushes us overthe edge.
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-202 (26:54):
Mm-hmm Mm-hmm
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-20 (26:55):
thing is modeling good behavior.
I was teaching a group yesterdayand one of the guys said, well,
I don't answer any emails aftereight o'clock and I don't answer
any emails over the weekendbecause I want my people to know
that not what we're going to do.
And if I just talk about noburnout and dah, dah, dah, but.
I'm on all weekend and allnight, then that sends a very
(27:19):
different message than the oneI'm trying to communicate.
So you
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-202 (27:22):
Mm-hmm
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_ (27:23):
in terms of relating, you are the
role model that
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-202 (27:26):
Mm-hmm
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2 (27:27):
toward to say, how do we function here?
And so you have to make sureyour behavior is, is in line
with that.
Also goal setting.
Don't set goals for your peoplethat are impossible to get
because there again, Oh yeah, Iwant work life balance and so on
and so forth.
But if you don't get this, this,this and this done, you're Then
(27:47):
it's you're not a good employee.
Well, you're setting up thecircumstances that require work.
That is, is
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-202 (27:55):
Mm-hmm
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_1 (27:55):
a high
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-202 (27:56):
Mm-hmm
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025 (27:57):
And some of it as I said, is
prioritizing, figuring out andasking people, what is it that
we don't have to do?
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-202 (28:05):
Mm-hmm Mm-hmm
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-202 (28:07):
What is it that we can take off our
plates?
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-202 (28:10):
Right?
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025 (28:11):
get someone else to do or work
around or get AI to do.
I mean, AI
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-202 (28:17):
Mm-hmm
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_1 (28:18):
a
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-202 (28:18):
Mm-hmm
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-20 (28:19):
these days.
I use it all the time now.
Oh, summarize this, or I justwrote this, fix it up a little
bit.
Or it's such
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-202 (28:26):
Mm-hmm
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-20 (28:27):
saver of time that figure out what you
don't have to do or what.
What you can get help with andthen finally, I think the thing
is to negotiate up, right?
You don't have to takeeverything that your boss says
you have to do Say, you knowwhat?
We're already doing this thisand this so I know you want us
(28:48):
to do this, but where do you seeus dropping something?
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-202 (28:53):
Right.
Right.
And your prioritization, youknow, where, what can come off
so that if this needs to beprioritized.
deborah-ancona_1_01-28 (29:00):
Exactly.
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025 (29:01):
Yeah.
Mm-hmm
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-202 (29:02):
push on back up rather than just
accepting.
And again, people pleasers orperfectionists are going to want
to please the senior leader, butthen you're stuck having all
that extra work to do.
So how do you set boundaries?
Absolutely.
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-202 (29:18):
right.
Which again, gets back to yourvalues, gets back to
organizational values as, aswell to help set those
priorities.
So, yeah, thank you for that.
Well, I, I know there's one moreskill in the skill of relating
and, and that is Connecting inaddition to inquiry and
advocacy.
So it's not just about thoseinternal team dynamics that we
(29:39):
were talking about, but alsoabout those external networks of
support that we, we started ourconversation on.
How can leaders intentionallycultivate a network of
confidence to help them addresschallenges like disconnection
and burnout?
And why is this so essential?
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-20 (29:57):
Yeah, so I, I'd say that the external
connections are not just abouthaving someone to discuss with.
I
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_13 (30:03):
Mm hmm.
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_ (30:04):
I, I think you want to, in your
mind, think about what do youneed an external network for?
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_13 (30:11):
Mm hmm.
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-20 (30:12):
about all right, I want someone at my
fingertips I need career advice.
I have technology questions, sonow Jenny, I can't possibly keep
up with everything.
The guy who taught an AI course.
He's I like him and I'm whateverhe needs.
I'm happy to give him because Iwant him there when I have a
(30:34):
question or a query or
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_13 (30:35):
Mm hmm.
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_ (30:36):
He actually is a great.
connector to a whole communitythat I don't know.
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_ (30:42):
hmm.
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025 (30:44):
who is gonna answer your technology
questions?
Who are potential partners foryou in the work that you're
you're doing?
Who do you need as a key advisorstrategy or other things that
that you might need?
What customers?
Do you stay in touch with sothat you can keep your fingers
on the pulse of changingcustomer demand?
(31:06):
So think
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025 (31:07):
Yeah.
Mm hmm.
Mm
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025 (31:08):
and what are the needs that you have
and then figure out how tocreate that network.
Satya Nadella is my go to rolemodel on this.
He, every day, every day, he hastwo meetings.
With this is a man who has a lotto do.
So just, if we
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_ (31:28):
hmm.
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-20 (31:28):
okay, we don't have any time for this.
Two meetings a day with otherCEOs to
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_1 (31:34):
Ah,
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-202 (31:35):
what are you working on?
What are you thinking with?
Who are you working with?
What are the issues you seecoming forward?
Because when you have thatexternal connectivity, it's
easier.
for you to then invent new waysof working, for you to envision
where, what is the future andwhere are we going?
If you
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-202 (31:54):
right.
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-202 (31:54):
from scratch without that external
input, you're behind.
And so
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_13 (31:59):
Mm hmm.
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-202 (32:00):
than thinking about it as, oh my
goodness, this is sapping all mytime, I don't have time for
this, reframe, this is
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_13 (32:08):
Mm hmm.
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025 (32:08):
for me to do my work and make the
work easier.
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_13 (32:12):
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
This is an accelerant, almost,in your work.
deborah-ancona_1_01 (32:16):
absolutely.
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_13 (32:17):
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2 (32:23):
world?
Stepping out and asking peopleand talking to people is, is one
important way to do this.
And it's not just for you, it'sfor your team.
fact, think about much morerelating and sensemaking and
connectivity you have, if yourwhole team is going out.
And not just you.
And so you have to be focused onit.
(32:45):
You have to not just go, Oh,everybody should.
Okay.
This week, everybody go andinterview a customer about what
they like and don't like aboutthis new product.
Okay.
Everybody go out, back.
So you've done your sensing.
Now your sense making.
What did we learn?
How does that impact ourprojects?
How does that impact the workwe're going to be doing going
(33:07):
forward?
Okay, now we have to presentthat to senior leaders so that
they give us buy in.
So, okay, let's get together,get a presentation and go out
and give it to several seniorleaders so that they're aware of
what we're doing.
And therefore we get more buyin, we get more resources, we
get more of other things.
So I think that This externalcommunication is just pivotal
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_13 (33:33):
Mm hmm.
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-202 (33:34):
with all the other leadership
capabilities that you're askedto, to have.
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025 (33:41):
Yeah, yeah.
And, you know, like, you talkedabout You know, the connection,
the relating is, is beneficial,not only from all the data that
you're taking in and how it canaccelerate your business, but
also beneficial for us as peopleto, to connect to other humans.
And
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025 (33:59):
And to learn.
I mean, the, the, the essenceof, of leading these days is
learning because we were livingin this fast changing world.
Everything's changing.
We need to learn.
And so sending people out tokind of put their fingers on the
pulse of all kinds of differenttrends.
Okay, we want to use a I, buthow What does that even mean?
(34:21):
So if we want to use it for aparticular product, maybe we go
out and say, okay, who's usingit in this way so that we can
learn from them?
And then we come in, okay, whatdid everybody learn and how do
we harness that learning our ownwork?
So it's connected to what we'regoing to do, what we have to
learn and making new thingshappen.
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025 (34:43):
Yeah, that, that's a key point too.
And, you know, I'm a bigproponent of being intentional
in all that we do.
And, and what you just saidabout, you know, it, it being
focused on.
You know, we are all going to gotalk to a customer this week
and, and bring it back and talkabout what we learned and how it
integrates, and then maybe nextweek it's something else, but
(35:04):
having that intention behindwhat you're doing as opposed to,
yes, you may just get benefit bytalking to people regardless
and, and kind of rolling thedice and you might glean some
information that ends up beinghelpful, but can be so much.
More helpful when you do havethat intention behind it and it
can really accelerate your teamand your business
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-20 (35:25):
Well,
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_ (35:25):
that way.
Mm.
Mm.
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-202 (35:28):
have data on that, too that just
because the team increases itscommunication outside, that does
not lead to better performance.
It is.
Specific kinds of communicationsagain to learn about partnering,
about how they do something elsethat relates to what you're
(35:50):
trying to do, that's what makesthe difference.
So you're absolutely right tofocus in on that intentionality.
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025 (35:57):
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's, that's great.
And it brought another questionto mind.
It just the since you have, youknow, written books, I'm, I'm
guessing people may take thisconcept and, and maybe, you
know, Apply it in a way thatdoesn't lead to results.
Like you were just talkingabout, you know, just taking one
(36:17):
piece of it and and increasingcommunication, but not being
intentional about it.
Are there is there maybe 1 or 2particular.
Maybe missteps that you've seenbeing made with the concept,
either in X teams or in otherwritings that you would advise
people against.
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-20 (36:37):
Yeah, I do think that you've kind of
hit on it.
Just because we're saying Xteams, which means X stands for
externally active
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_13 (36:46):
Mm hmm.
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2 (36:47):
before in.
I think random externalizationjust talking to people is is not
very helpful.
I also think the timing of itright.
So if You have, you have todefine what's our priority right
now.
So everybody's going to go talkto a customer.
Everybody's going to go talk toa competitor or whatever it is.
(37:09):
It's focused.
it's timely.
Okay, we're gonna take the nextweek to do this, and then we're
gonna switch gears and harvestwhat we learned.
It's not
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_13 (37:19):
Mm hmm.
Mm
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025 (37:20):
all over the place all of the time
because that gets chaotic.
And you're
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_ (37:24):
hmm.
Mm hmm.
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-202 (37:26):
that harvesting.
And so the harvesting is soimportant.
I've seen so many teams.
Oh, we're doing this, this,this, and this, and then we, we
just, it, it evaporates becausethere is not that coming
together.
And the team still exists.
The team still has to processthings, and you have to build
the team, and so it's not justout, it's out and in, and learn
(37:49):
and process.
teri-schmidt_1_01-28 (37:50):
Excellent.
Excellent point.
Yeah, that, that second step ofthe harvesting.
I can see that being criticallyimportant.
Well, As I mentioned a fewtimes, you know, I work
primarily with compassionatedriven leaders, and I'd love to
hear if you had one piece ofadvice to offer them what would
it be?
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_ (38:10):
So I think it would be that, If
you're compassionate and thenyou care about others, that's
really great, but you have toremember that the others
includes you.
think that would be my advice,that sometimes the compassion
bleeds over into excess work,excess pleasing, excess inquiry,
(38:33):
and you have to remember that ifyou're burnt out, you're not a
good leader.
If you're not doing thatadvocacy or having someone else,
again, if you can't have someoneelse do it, you're losing.
And in game theory, if you'rethe cooperative and you're
against a competitive person,then you lose.
(38:55):
Right?
So just keep the compassion.
Oh, my goodness.
We are so in need.
What we want, don't want is moretoxic leaders who don't care
about
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_13 (39:05):
Mm hmm.
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025_ (39:07):
do and being mean to people.
Compassion is great.
But if compassion is going to belinked to results, then one has
to be careful to just give upeverything before you, you got
it.
So you know, you're important.
Give yourself time off when youneed it.
Give yourself rest to thinkabout what's next on the agenda.
(39:30):
Give yourself some lessons inadvocacy so that it's this
again, both and not either or.
teri-schmidt_1_01-28 (39:40):
Wonderful.
Excellent reminder.
Thank you for that.
And if people would like tolearn more about you and your
research and your work, where isthe best place for them to go
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025 (39:51):
I'm actually gonna, this brought on
a question.
So before I get to that,
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025 (39:54):
work?
deborah-ancona_1_01-28 (39:54):
actually pivot and ask you the question.
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-20 (39:56):
course.
Yeah,
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025 (39:57):
I'm saying resonate with what you've
heard?
Does there seem to be this kindof imbalance of other over self?
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-202 (40:06):
there, there does.
And, you know, we I've talkedfrequently about strong leaders
serve, they don't rescue.
And so you know, when I firsthad.
The podcast strong leader serveand have the business strong
leaders serve.
And then I started hearing kindof rumblings that we don't want
leaders to serve because thatleads to burnout.
(40:28):
So I really had to do someinvestigation.
What does serve mean to me?
And it is and it's very alignedwith how I define leadership and
that is courageously using yourtalents to make a way for others
to courageously use theirs.
And so that's what I mean aboutserve.
It's, it's.
It's not about jumping in anytime they're having a problem,
(40:48):
but instead finding whatcapacity within them enables
them to solve that problem andwhat Scaffolding they need to be
able to be able to solve thatproblem for themselves.
So it can take a little bit moretime up front, but it creates a
culture where they aren'tnecessarily code, you know, it's
(41:10):
not a codependent culture on youwhere you're getting burned out.
So yeah, I would, I woulddefinitely say that it
resonates.
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-20 (41:17):
Okay, great.
Well, I love that.
I love that perspective.
I think that's a reallyimportant perspective.
So I'm glad that you're You're
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025 (41:24):
Well,
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-202 (41:24):
that in there.
That's great.
Anyway, to learn more, I guess.
LinkedIn would be one place.
I post quite a bit.
Pretty frequently, as you say,where I'm posting right now on
leadership
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_13 (41:34):
Mm
deborah-ancona_1_01-28- (41:35):
Another is I'm sure Henrik mentioned it
at X lead dot co, which is wherewe have a series of leadership
development tools and productsas well as access to some of the
articles and books and blogs andso on that
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_ (41:53):
hmm.
Mm hmm.
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025 (41:54):
out on a regular basis.
Think the other thing is, atjust go to M.
I.
T.
Sloan, which is where I
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_ (42:02):
Hmm.
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-2025 (42:03):
and you can look me up.
And again, there access to anumber of articles and podcasts
and other things.
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025 (42:11):
Well, excellent.
Well, I'll make sure that allgets linked in the show notes,
of course, so that people canfind that
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-20 (42:16):
Thank you.
teri-schmidt_1_01-28-2025_1 (42:17):
But I, I know you're very busy and I
do really appreciate your timefor this conversation.
I know that it will be a benefitto many leaders who are
listening.
So thank you very much.
deborah-ancona_1_01-28-20 (42:29):
Well, thank you very much.
Well, I hope you enjoyed thatepisode.
Thank you again to Debra forcoming on, spending time with us
and sharing her wisdom andexperiences about leading with
inquiry and advocacy.
We talked about a lot, and Ihope you're able to take at
least one item from ourconversation and think about how
(42:54):
you can put it into actiontoday.
For me, it's going to bethinking about how I can
reframe, how I view advocacy andthe power that that can have in
my leadership and life.
Have a wonderful week.
I look forward to being backtogether with you next week.
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