May 28, 2025 • 44 mins
What if leadership wasn’t about having the right answers, but about asking better questions? In this episode, Dr. Joel Pérez shares how cultural humility—not just cultural competency—can transform how we lead, build inclusive teams, and create lasting organizational change. We explore why humility is a leadership strength, how to move beyond perfectionism, and what it takes to lead with curiosity in today’s complex world.
Resources:
- Download the first chapter of Dear White Leader: How to Achieve Organizational Excellence through Cultural Humility
- Connect with Dr. Joel on LinkedIn
Looking for a community of leaders where you can tackle real challenges, share wins, and grow together—without office politics getting in the way? Join Leadership Thought Partners, a coach-led, group-directed space launching in July—early bird pricing ends May 31, 2025 at strongleadersserve.com/ltp!
Connect on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/teri-m-schmidt/
Get 1-on-1 leadership support from Teri here: https://www.strongleadersserve.com/coaching
Set up an intro call with Teri: https://calendly.com/terischmidt/discoverycall
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome back.
What of the key to trulyinclusive leadership isn't
knowing more, but insteadapproaching others with less
certainty?
In today's episode of StrongLeaders Serve, I'm joined by Dr.
Joel Perez, a dynamic executiveand leadership coach, speaker
and consultant who is reshapinghow we think about leadership,
(00:22):
belonging, and inclusion?
Joel's work centers on culturalhumility, a posture, not a
destination, that empowersleaders to navigate complexity
with openness, curiosity, andcourage.
He's also the author of DearWhite Leader.
How to achieve organizationalexcellence through cultural
(00:45):
humility, A thought provokingguide that invites leaders to
transform not only themselves,but the organizations and
communities they serve.
In this conversation, we diginto how cultural humility
differs from culturalcompetency, why perfectionism
can get in the way of trueinclusion, and how leaders can
(01:07):
cultivate a space wherecuriosity isn't just allowed.
It's expected, so let's get intothe conversation.
I'm Terry Schmidt, executive andleadership coach at Strong
Leaders Serve, where we workwith compassionate driven
leaders to transform potentialinto performance.
And this is the Strong LeadersServe podcast.
Teri Schmidt (02:24):
Well, welcome to the Strong Leaders Serve
Podcast.
Joel, it's so nice to have youon.
Dr. Joel Perez (02:29):
Yeah, it's great to be here.
Thank you for having me on onthe podcast, Terry.
I really appreciate you makingthe time to, to have me on.
Teri Schmidt (02:36):
Of course, of course.
It was, it was so fun to meetyou and, and get to know you a
little bit through Paul SandbarsLego series play,
Dr. Joel Perez (02:44):
Mm-hmm.
Teri Schmidt (02:44):
workshop, and it was.
Hilarious.
As I mentioned to you that I hadjust been listening to you on
Dave's Coaching for LeadersPodcast and then saw that you
were gonna be there in theworkshop in person, and just
love the work that you are doingaround cultural humility.
Dr. Joel Perez (03:02):
Yeah, thank you.
Yeah, it's it.
It's interesting how thathappened and I too am very happy
that I got, I got to meet youand got the invitation and went
through the training with youand yeah, looking forward to
this
Teri Schmidt (03:15):
Yeah.
Well, excellent.
Well, I'd love for you to justtell us a little bit about your
story and how you came to befocused on cultural humility.
Dr. Joel Perez (03:25):
Yeah, that's a, that's a good question.
And I first became familiar withthe term in the mid two
thousands.
I was working at a college up inthe Northwest and I heard
someone speak and reference it,and it was new to me at the
time.
stuck with me, mainly because Ihad, I know this may be a
(03:45):
question down the road.
It stuck with me because I hadalways been wanting more than
just cultural competency,
Teri Schmidt (03:53):
Mm
Dr. Joel Perez (03:54):
the term culture humility really resonated with
me because I have always feltlike competency.
Competency infers that it'ssomething to be achieved,
whereas
Teri Schmidt (04:05):
mm.
Dr. Joel Perez (04:06):
humility felt to me like, oh, okay, this is a
posture, this is something thatcan help you navigate the
complexity.
And that's what, you know, Italk about that in the book.
Teri Schmidt (04:18):
Yeah.
Dr. Joel Perez (04:18):
And it wasn't until I started, I was going
through the coachingcertification program.
And, and I started thinkingabout like, you know, as we do
when we go through thosecertification programs, those of
you that are coaches and andthat are listening, that you
start thinking about yourclients and your programs.
(04:38):
I realized that I wanted to dosomething around cultural
humility to help leaders whoidentify as white get better at
navigate at just leading diverseteams.
I
Teri Schmidt (04:51):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (04:52):
as Mexican American, Chicano, son of
immigrants.
Spanish was my first language.
have never had a problem beingin spaces where I am helping
people get better as opposed tolike not wanting to work with
people who identify as white inthis area.
And I have colleagues who toldme, they recognize themselves
(05:12):
like, Joel, we're really happyyou're doing that work.
That's not the work that wewanna do.
Right.
And so I started coachingpeople.
I called it culture, humility,coaching.
And then as I was working withclients, I realized, you know
what?
I think there's a book here.
I think there's a, I wanna getthe word out to others than just
my clients or the people thatare interested in hiring me as a
(05:34):
coach.
so,
Teri Schmidt (05:36):
Yeah.
Dr. Joel Perez (05:36):
but going back to your original question, mid
two thousands is when I becamefamiliar with the term.
Then over time I had done someresearch and really thinking
more about it and thenrecognizing that competency for
me was, felt limiting, but stillextremely important to develop.
And I call it, I reference it asthe foundation towards
Teri Schmidt (06:01):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (06:01):
a posture of culture and humility.
But I, but as I worked withpeople and done, when I speak
and done workshops.
The idea that culturalcompetency infers that it's
something to be achieved reallyresonates with people and they
too want, there has to besomething more than just getting
a certificate checking a box,which what, which is what
(06:24):
sometimes it feels like topeople when they hear the term
competency.
Teri Schmidt (06:28):
Yeah.
Yeah, that, that's such a goodpoint.
And the, the distinction betweenthe two.
Before I dig into that a littlebit more, because I definitely
have some.
Things that I'd like to ask youto, to go a little bit deeper
on, but I'd love to just, youknow, hear a little bit more
about the book.
I had the opportunity to read itand love, love the approach as
(06:48):
well.
As, you know, the practical tipsin it about, you know, these are
the steps that you can take notonly as an individual, but also.
From a systems perspective, youknow, that that needs to be in
place.
So I'd love for you to share,I've heard a little bit about
the story kind of behind thebook.
Dear White Leader, I think itstarted as just one article, if
(07:10):
I remember correctly, and, andthen evolved into a book.
But I'd love to hear a littlebit more about that from your
perspective.
Dr. Joel Perez (07:16):
Yeah, so the, the title itself and the whole
idea of, of why also I wrotethe, or really why I chose the
title is after the murder ofGeorge Floyd, was not in a good
place very angry, upset, andreally felt like I needed to
call out my colleagues andfriends who identify as white,
(07:38):
who are leaders who are in, in.
Organizations and they havepositions of influence really
start helping change systems.
Teri Schmidt (07:48):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (07:49):
and so I wrote a blog post with that title, dear
White Leader, I talk about why Ithink it's important for, for
white people to get engaged inthis where particularly in that
moment in history, which stillof course applies to today.
and so I wrote the blog post.
then as I started thinking aboutwriting this book around
(08:11):
culture, humility, I reallywanted my target audience to be
people who identify as whiteleaders who are wanting to get
better at leading work,inclusion work, creating a sense
of belonging.
I.
And, and so that is what, youknow, sort of the title.
And then the, the work itselfwas, I, I knew cultural
(08:33):
competency was important, and I,but I knew there was more to
that and, and wanted to provideopportunities for, to learn how
do you, how do you move fromcultural competency to cultural
humility?
so I developed an online course.
It's available on my website.
That's not my ask at the end,but,
Teri Schmidt (08:50):
Yeah.
Dr. Joel Perez (08:51):
people wanna, wanna, it's a mini course.
And
Teri Schmidt (08:54):
Great.
Dr. Joel Perez (08:55):
that process I got really excited and I wanted
my doctoral advisor to share,you know, to write an
endorsement for it.
Teri Schmidt (09:02):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (09:02):
so I, I sent it to her.
We then met for coffee and shelooked at me and I tell the
story in the book, and she, shelooked at me.
She said, this is a great goalthat you're talking about things
for individuals, but how doesthat impact the organization?
Teri Schmidt (09:19):
Mm.
Dr. Joel Perez (09:20):
it's not just about you.
It's important for you to do thework,
Teri Schmidt (09:23):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (09:24):
how is it gonna lead to change, which is what's
necessary
Teri Schmidt (09:28):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (09:29):
for PE, for organizations to become more
inclusive.
so I took that advice from her.
And integrated that in thebooks.
It's not just about, one of theaspects of cultural humility is
self-awareness andself-critique, which is
extremely important in thefoundation, it's also about how
do you change the organizationthat way I.
(09:51):
Things are made better foreverybody and, and I also
believe not just organizations,but then our, our communities.
Teri Schmidt (10:01):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (10:02):
in the book, and when I do, when I do these
talks, I talk about thatcommunity isn't, community is
broad.
Meaning it's family, it'sfriends, it's faith communities,
it's our volunteerorganizations.
So you start developing thisposture, it.
It's gonna bleed or grow intoevery aspect of your life that
(10:24):
you're able to engage in theseconversations.
With this posture of culture,humility where you're seeking to
understand versus seeking toconvince.
And so, but to back to yourpoint, it was yes, the blog
post.
Yes.
That's also what led, like, Ithink, I think there's a book
here.
I think I'm gonna
Teri Schmidt (10:43):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (10:44):
that.
Not leverage, but take theexperience.
I'm, I am.
I'm having because of the murderof George Floyd at the height of
the pandemic, is that I reallywant to communicate to people
the need for change asindividuals and ultimately the
organizations that we serve.
Teri Schmidt (11:00):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
And you, you do, do you do thatso well in the book?
I, I know there are a lot ofbooks that focus on one or the
other.
But the way that you combineunder this umbrella of cultural
humility.
I think it's really powerful.
Dr. Joel Perez (11:14):
Yep.
Teri Schmidt (11:14):
And you know, back to that cultural humility versus
cultural competency.
I love what you said about, youknow, cultural competency feels
almost like it's something to beachieved.
Like you, you know, you get acertificate, you're competent.
You, you've gotta gotta check inthe box.
And as I understand it, and Iwould love to hear more from
(11:35):
your perspective about.
How you understand and definecultural humility.
But as I understand it, I thinkI heard you say cultural
humility, you know, allows youto deal with the complexity that
is culture.
You know that I think a lot oftimes, you know, people are
(11:56):
afraid because they're comingfrom that cultural competency
angle of, I don't knoweverything about this person's
culture.
And then, you know, even though.
They identify that certain way,they might not be like someone
else who identifies the sameway.
And, and how do I deal withthat?
I don't wanna assume anything.
And I think sometimes that getspeople into a place of fear and
(12:19):
avoidance.
And as I understand it, culturalhumility is a way out of that.
So I'd love to hear from youmore about that.
Dr. Joel Perez (12:27):
Yeah.
It, it is.
And I, I was doing a webinar andsomeone asked me why do I use
the term humility.
Why, why do I call it a posture?
Teri Schmidt (12:39):
Mm.
Dr. Joel Perez (12:40):
the way I described the way, what I, how I
described it was that while theposture of culture, humility in,
in my mind is you have open arms
Teri Schmidt (12:48):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (12:49):
to receive even when it's not necessarily
positive things.
And,
Teri Schmidt (12:55):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (12:56):
so it's about developing that posture because
you're gonna be able to benimble.
Teri Schmidt (13:04):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (13:05):
things are gonna happen in your life that just
like in anyone's life, happen inour lives where they don't go
the way we think they're gonnago.
People get angry at us.
We make
Teri Schmidt (13:16):
Yeah.
Dr. Joel Perez (13:17):
And so having that posture allows you to,
like, allows you to think of themistakes as opportunities.
Teri Schmidt (13:27):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (13:27):
grow.
So I talk about, in, in thebook, I talk about having a
growth mindset, right?
The
Teri Schmidt (13:31):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (13:32):
Carol Dweck's done around growth
Teri Schmidt (13:34):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (13:35):
easy.
but it's important because we,we are gonna make mistakes.
all have inherent biases thatwe've learned over time.
Teri Schmidt (13:47):
Yeah.
Dr. Joel Perez (13:47):
one of the things I talk about is getting
clear on your biases.
Then it's not about it's abouthow do you mitigate their impact
because they're not
Teri Schmidt (13:56):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (13:56):
You cannot eradicate bias.
We all have biases, right?
Teri Schmidt (14:01):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (14:02):
and that posture is gonna help you and help the
leader, the coach executive.
Recognize, yeah.
I'm gonna make mistakes.
It's what do I do with thosemistakes when they happen that's
gonna help me be better.
Right?
That's
Teri Schmidt (14:18):
Right.
Dr. Joel Perez (14:18):
me become, I talk about becoming an
exceptional leader.
Teri Schmidt (14:22):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (14:22):
and because I think we as leaders I, from, I
guess I'll speak for myself, Iwanna keep getting better,
right?
I wanna improve my craft, it'snot science per se, like they're
just boxes that you check.
It is an art, meaning it doestake work making mistakes along
(14:43):
the way, but the idea is, isgrowing from those mistakes or
seeing the mistakes asopportunities to develop
yourself, as well as developingthe people around you.
So the book it's, it's, youknow, it's circular,
self-awareness, self-critique,redressing power imbalances,
organizational change.
But it always goes back toself-awareness.
Teri Schmidt (15:04):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (15:05):
Because we're gonna make mistakes.
Teri Schmidt (15:08):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (15:09):
and no matter how good we think we are, going
to make mistakes.
But it's, and just withleadership, right?
Those of you who are listening,who are leaders, you know you're
gonna make mistakes and you domake mistakes.
There's not a perfect leader,but it's what you do with those
mistakes that make you a, thatmake you a better leader and a
(15:29):
leader that people want to wantto follow.
Teri Schmidt (15:32):
Yeah.
Yeah, definitely.
So I, I guess just to level set,you know, for anyone who's not
familiar with culturalcompetency, how would that
differ?
You know, if we were todistinguish between those two,
in your mind, how do they differcultural competency and cultural
humility?
I.
Dr. Joel Perez (15:51):
Yeah, the, the main difference is, is really, I
mean, again, I would say toanswer your question the main
difference or the difference isthat competency is a mindset
that people have, meaningthey've, they, they are like, I
just want to get to from point Ato point B culture.
Humility is yes, you start atpoint A, but there is no point B
(16:14):
because society has changed andwill continue to change.
Competency.
So it's, so I would say thedifferent, going back, the
difference is mindset.
Meaning that competency is thatcheck a box.
I attended a course, I read abook.
Culture.
Humility is this Posture becausewe know that complexity happens
(16:36):
and things aren't stagnant,right?
Teri Schmidt (16:39):
Yeah.
Dr. Joel Perez (16:39):
so we're always growing.
Teri Schmidt (16:43):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (16:43):
So it's really a mindset, although there are
aspects of competency that withhumility, particularly around
the self-awareness piece.
So developing culturalself-awareness important in
competency and culture,humility,
Teri Schmidt (16:58):
Mm.
Dr. Joel Perez (16:59):
there's aspects that you talk about when you're
doing cultural competencycourses or whatever about
changing the
Teri Schmidt (17:04):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (17:06):
Culture.
Humility really, I believe,allows you to go deeper you are
thinking about how you do changethe system in a way that's gonna
bring about meaningful change.
Competency, although the TerryCrosses associates did a good
job of laying the foundationorganizational change.
(17:27):
But I think the work of Travonand Garcia around culture,
humility, I think provides adeeper way to think about
changing the system so You'reable to be nimble
Teri Schmidt (17:39):
yeah.
Dr. Joel Perez (17:41):
society is ever changing as
Teri Schmidt (17:43):
Right.
Dr. Joel Perez (17:44):
hard, as hard as that may be for certain people.
Teri Schmidt (17:47):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (17:48):
is that things continue to shift and change,
and we have to learn how toadapt the way we lead based on
the communities we serve andwill will serve into the future.
Teri Schmidt (18:03):
Right, right.
And, and those communities arecomplex and you took the word
outta my mouth that, you know,need to be nimble.
I, and I know you acknowledgedcultural competency as kind of a
foundation, almost like a, abase knowledge.
But then that humility on top ofthat is, does enable you to
adapt to the complexity that isall around us so that you can be
(18:26):
nimble and, exude that same carefor people.
That probably drove you toexplore cultural competency in
the beginning.
Dr. Joel Perez (18:35):
Yeah, yeah,
Teri Schmidt (18:36):
Excellent.
Dr. Joel Perez (18:37):
in, in the book, I tell a story about how our
17-year-old came out to us,
Teri Schmidt (18:43):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (18:44):
I really did at that moment recognize that what
I learned 15 years ago as a.
Parent who is culturallycompetent that I wasn't ready
for the shift for us as parentsin creating space for them to
explore their identities.
Teri Schmidt (19:01):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (19:02):
what I was taught 15 years ago was when
society was in a very differentplace than where it is now.
And having that posture hasallowed me to recognize that and
also acknowledge, like we'vetalked about already, is I'm
gonna make mistakes.
Teri Schmidt (19:18):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (19:19):
my child.
Teri Schmidt (19:21):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (19:21):
to say the wrong thing, but what do I, how do I
learn from that?
And, you know, learning how toapologize and those, and that's
really, really important when itcomes
Teri Schmidt (19:31):
Yeah.
Dr. Joel Perez (19:31):
affirming people's identities.
Teri Schmidt (19:33):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (19:34):
So that you can create the space or so that we
can create space for Jaden togrow in their own identity
without feeling like they haveto conform to what we want them
to conform to.
Teri Schmidt (19:46):
Right,
Dr. Joel Perez (19:47):
Mm-hmm.
Teri Schmidt (19:48):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And that is such a powerfulposture
Dr. Joel Perez (19:53):
Mm-hmm.
Teri Schmidt (19:53):
for life, really
Dr. Joel Perez (19:54):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Teri Schmidt (19:56):
applies to, applies to so many different
situations.
You know, another thing thatprobably applies to more than
just, talking about culture, butis, you talk about perfectionism
and you talk about that beingone of the characteristics that
makes it difficult fororganizations to be more
inclusive.
Dr. Joel Perez (20:14):
Yeah.
Teri Schmidt (20:15):
So I'd, I'd love to hear more about how that
relates to cultural humility.
Dr. Joel Perez (20:20):
Yeah.
So in, in the book I talk about,we talk about self-awareness,
self-critique, and in the secondphase or second is redressing
power imbalances, right?
As we begin to recognize that.
There are gaps in ourorganization, right?
So learning how to look at dataparticularly if you want to
create a more inclusiveorganization that meets the
needs of all the keystakeholders that we serve.
(20:44):
But I also talk about thesefeelings of estrangement,
Teri Schmidt (20:48):
And,
Dr. Joel Perez (20:49):
the opposite of a sense of belonging.
And one of them
Teri Schmidt (20:52):
mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (20:54):
as a, as a characteristic or as a component
of feelings of estrangement.
I, I was, I mean, I, I've beenguilty of this before.
I want things to be
Teri Schmidt (21:03):
Yeah.
Dr. Joel Perez (21:04):
want people to work a certain way, and the
reality is that no one'sperfect, right?
Yet we've been conditioned towant, want people to be perfect
or things to be perfect.
and so when someone makes amistake, focus on the mistake.
(21:25):
And sometimes that means forsome people it means.
Belittling an employee, thinkingless of them because they, they
messed up.
But a reframe is, so instead offocusing on the mistake and
making that person feel badabout their decision, what if we
came along with what if we camealongside with them and created
(21:48):
a learning opportunity for themto get better?
Teri Schmidt (21:51):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (21:52):
And, and wanting them to experiment.
So the, the, of the things thatI've heard and people talk about
is Pixar has been reallysuccessful because they allow
people to, to experiment, to trydifferent things.
They bring a lot of differentpeople into the conversation.
Companies that you wouldconsider innovative allow for
(22:13):
that space, for people to trythings and not be afraid of
being, you know, if they, ifthey make a mistake.
Teri Schmidt (22:19):
Yeah.
Dr. Joel Perez (22:20):
and we as leaders need to be better at
creating that space, that senseof belonging opposed to feelings
of estrangement.
Teri Schmidt (22:32):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (22:34):
really important.
And I'm not saying that youdon't keep people accountable,
so I don't want people to
Teri Schmidt (22:38):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (22:39):
what I'm saying.
If there needs to beaccountability, then there needs
to be accountability.
But we need, we as leaders needto let go our desire to, to of,
of our desire for people to beperfect,
Teri Schmidt (22:53):
Right, right.
Dr. Joel Perez (22:54):
for things to be perfect.
Teri Schmidt (22:56):
Yeah.
Dr. Joel Perez (22:57):
earlier, we're gonna make mistakes.
We are not perfect people.
are not
Teri Schmidt (23:01):
Yeah.
Dr. Joel Perez (23:02):
And so that's why perfectionism can get in the
way of developing this, thisposture of cultural humility,
because
Teri Schmidt (23:11):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (23:11):
holding onto this idea that people and things
need to be perfect in order forus to be successful.
And the reality is, no, we'regonna make mistakes.
We need to try different things.
So it's creating that space forpeople and for us to try things
knowing that we may.
Do the wrong thing, but again,do we do with that mistake so we
(23:33):
can get better?
Teri Schmidt (23:34):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's, it is such a greatreminder because it it, it does
definitely limit that growthmindset that you spoke about.
And, you know, I think, as Ithink about our listeners, they
are compassionate drivenleaders.
So they care deeply aboutpeople.
And I think that.
(23:55):
Quest for perfectionism isparticularly powerful in the
cultural aspects.
So if they tend to, if theyidentify as white or are in some
other place of power,
Dr. Joel Perez (24:11):
Mm-hmm.
Teri Schmidt (24:11):
know, their desire to not say the wrong thing or do
the wrong thing, that mightoffend someone.
Dr. Joel Perez (24:18):
Mm-hmm.
Teri Schmidt (24:19):
And to be perfect in that way.
And I know I'm talking more nowon the individual, but I, I just
see that as being very powerful.
And, and can keep people in aplace of fear and avoidance and,
and just not wanting to exploreit, and then you don't get the
benefit and, you know, have thecuriosity with people to learn
(24:39):
about them and value from theirunique perspectives.
Dr. Joel Perez (24:44):
Yeah.
And, and in the book, and, andwhen I do the, when I do
workshops when I speak, tryingto get people to understand that
you what's happened, I, in oursociety, in our organizations
is, is we, we don't allow peoplewho are curious that are in the
middle
Teri Schmidt (25:02):
Mm.
Dr. Joel Perez (25:02):
explore because they're afraid that they're
gonna be labeled one thing oranother, or allowing the
extremes to influence.
And, I acknowledge that, youknow, as a man of color have
been doing diversity work for along time.
was on one extreme or have beenon one extreme or the other.
And if I hear someone from theother extreme early on in my
(25:24):
career, I would, label themright
Teri Schmidt (25:27):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (25:28):
wouldn't really wanna listen to them.
which then creates it, it thencreates environment where people
then isolate themselves becausethey're afraid to
Teri Schmidt (25:37):
Yeah.
Dr. Joel Perez (25:39):
So as organizations., Or as leaders of
organizations, we need to createspace.
For exploration and askingquestions, and that's gonna
Teri Schmidt (25:50):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (25:51):
have a better understanding so that they can
be better as opposed to justshutting down and isolating
themselves and like, Nope, it'sthat fixed mindset.
I'm just gonna keep doing whatI'm doing if I do anything
that's gonna offend someone,just, I'm just, I'm not, I'm
not, I don't want that formyself, so I'd rather just not
(26:12):
say anything at all.
Teri Schmidt (26:14):
Yeah.
Dr. Joel Perez (26:14):
where I, I believe that's become
problematic with our society
Teri Schmidt (26:19):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (26:19):
we
Teri Schmidt (26:20):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (26:20):
for space for conversation because we're
afraid of, of saying the wrongthing.
And,
Teri Schmidt (26:27):
Yeah.
Dr. Joel Perez (26:27):
And that's, you know, that, that, that could be
detrimental to the, this thisgoal of creating a sense of
belonging, the psychologicalsafety that our organizations
need.
Teri Schmidt (26:37):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, definitely.
And you know, I I think that I.
Ability of leaders to createthat space where people can be
curious and, and feel safe doingthat.
And I see the book Seek BehindYou as well.
We, we studied that for, for oneof our book club sessions.
Great, excellent book.
(26:58):
But I, you know, I think thatfeeling that safety to be
curious is something that.
Is difficult to foster inyourselves, but even, you know,
perhaps more difficult to fosterin a team.
So I'm curious what you've seenleaders, do you know, what steps
have they taken that has enabledthem to be curious themselves
(27:21):
but also set up that environmentwhere it is safe for a team to
be curious as it relates tocultural humility?
Dr. Joel Perez (27:30):
Yeah, that's a good question.
So in my coaching with leaders,we talk about, I coach around
helping the leader get learn howto be curious, right?
Teri Schmidt (27:39):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (27:40):
what's on my shirt,
Teri Schmidt (27:41):
Oh, it's on your shirt.
Well, yes.
Dr. Joel Perez (27:43):
by ask, learning how to ask themselves questions.
Like what am I not listening tomyself today?
Teri Schmidt (27:48):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (27:49):
Why do I find this challenging?
And then from a leadership orsupervision standpoint is what
can you do when you're, whenyou're supervising someone who,
who is making mistakes or notfollowing through of being
really directive?
Are is there, is, are thereopen-ended questions you can ask
(28:11):
to get a better sense of thatperson?
Like why they took thatapproach?
Teri Schmidt (28:16):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (28:17):
I have discovered as leaders start
applying those concepts is theycome back and say to me, was
really good.
Like, I learned so much.
And even though the, even thoughit was a mistake or that person
needs to get better, it was adifferent, the tone of the
conversation was different
Teri Schmidt (28:36):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (28:36):
if I were to just tell them, if you're not on
time, the next time I'm gonnafire you.
Right?
Teri Schmidt (28:41):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (28:42):
example, right.
Teri Schmidt (28:43):
Sure.
Dr. Joel Perez (28:44):
And so when they've applied what we've
coached around, they come backand report, oh, this is great.
And what that does in theorganization, or at least in
their, vertical or their area,is that people then begin to
like, Joel actually really wantsto know about me.
And, and, and, and he's, he'scurious.
(29:06):
And the one thing I do stressthat's really important is that
leaders.
Preface that they're going to becurious and they're gonna ask
questions not sure their, theirpeople know.
It's not that they're beingjudgemental.
They're
Teri Schmidt (29:21):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (29:22):
in creating that environment.
So they do that before they haveto ask questions so
Teri Schmidt (29:26):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (29:26):
someone doesn't go, why are you asking me that
question?
Like are
Teri Schmidt (29:29):
Right.
Dr. Joel Perez (29:30):
me?
Or, and so that's reallyimportant.
And so we, you know, I coacharound that.
But once they report, startingto apply, this curiosity,
learning, they can see thelearning start, start to happen
in the people that they lead.
Teri Schmidt (29:46):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (29:46):
It leads the people they lead to recognize
that they, they can get better.
And I am, I'm gonna be I theemployee more feel safety in
sharing with my boss when I makemistakes,
Teri Schmidt (30:03):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (30:04):
hiding the mistakes and that then bleeds
out into the overall team.
The other thing, I was workingwith an executive director.
And we're talking about theirteam meetings.
and I said, so are therequestions that you can ask one
to preface of the curiositypiece you're working through an
agenda or are there things youcan ask about certain, are there
(30:29):
things you can ask, depending onthe topic?
they then again, going back,they started applying it and
like their team then startedshowing up differently.
Right,
Teri Schmidt (30:38):
Interesting.
Dr. Joel Perez (30:39):
that the leader really wants to know for it's
coming from a genuine place,
Teri Schmidt (30:44):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (30:44):
it's about getting better as a team so they
can meet their, their team goalsand their organizational goals,
Teri Schmidt (30:51):
Right, right.
What would, what would be someexamples of, of questions that.
You've seen leaders utilize inin specific situations, if there
are any, you can share.
Dr. Joel Perez (31:03):
Yeah.
Well I was working with theclient today and she's got a
difficult employee who is verydemanding.
And one of the questions welanded on, or previously that we
landed on is'cause as the, asthe leader, particularly one
that you, a leader who reallylikes to serve their people.
When people come to us and askus that they want certain
(31:25):
things, we you know, either sayyes or no, which sometimes
doesn't go over well.
So the posture of what, what wetrain, what we coached around
was how can you be curious inthose moments, right?
You wanna listen to the person.
Teri Schmidt (31:43):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (31:44):
this is an extreme example.
Well, it, someone comes to youand they want a raise, right?
Teri Schmidt (31:50):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (31:50):
which is very common, right?
Yeah.
Teri Schmidt (31:53):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (31:53):
For you, the leader to say, I hear you.
What the question we land on,what if I can't give you what
you want?
Teri Schmidt (32:02):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (32:03):
the reality is that we can ask for lots of
things, but the organization maynot be able to give us that 10%
raise or that 15% raise and whatthat other, what their employee
then recognized.
They, they're still not happy.
But they feel like thisparticular leader felt like,
they feel like they've beenheard.
(32:24):
So it could be, Hey, Joel, Ihear you.
You want a 20% raise
Teri Schmidt (32:30):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (32:31):
and I'm gonna advocate for you, what if I
can't give you what you want?
Teri Schmidt (32:36):
Right,
Dr. Joel Perez (32:37):
What,
Teri Schmidt (32:37):
right.
Dr. Joel Perez (32:38):
happens then?
Right?
And that person then startsthinking, oh, okay.
well.
Am I not happy enough where Ilead the organization?
So that's an
Teri Schmidt (32:45):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (32:46):
The, the
Teri Schmidt (32:47):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (32:48):
is you know helping team.
So Chi Yoka talks about this
Teri Schmidt (32:52):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (32:52):
The, the questions to ask create a
culture of, of curiosityorganization,
Teri Schmidt (32:57):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (32:59):
is helping leaders use the phrase, tell me
more.
Right.
Teri Schmidt (33:04):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (33:04):
they hear they're leading, say something
that just creates like somedissonance or questions to get
in the habit of just say, tellme more.
Right?
Teri Schmidt (33:15):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr. Joel Perez (33:16):
that when leaders start doing that, their,
what they report back to me isthat their employees feel like,
yeah, I need to be like, yeah, Iwanna share with you more.
I just need the prompt, right?
And so, so that's an example,another example.
But not a question, but it's astatement.
Right?
But it leads to someconversation.
Teri Schmidt (33:37):
Yeah.
Dr. Joel Perez (33:38):
the, the other one in particular that, that
leaders can use when someone isnot meeting expectations,
Teri Schmidt (33:44):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (33:45):
right?
Or, not following through, totell them, okay, so.
Our agreement or the expectationwas that you get this report in
on time or that you complete theassignment by the state, didn't
happen.
Help me understand what the,help me understand what the
(34:05):
context of you not being able tomeet that expectation or make
Teri Schmidt (34:09):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Dr. Joel Perez (34:11):
leads to a conversation, right?
As opposed to like, you're notmeeting
Teri Schmidt (34:14):
Right.
Dr. Joel Perez (34:15):
you need to change.
You
Teri Schmidt (34:17):
Right?
Dr. Joel Perez (34:18):
in that person, right.
Or why it is that they are notmeeting the
Teri Schmidt (34:22):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (34:25):
And it could be they're
Teri Schmidt (34:26):
Yeah.
Dr. Joel Perez (34:26):
with the work, or it could be like, I just had
a lot of stuff going on and I'm,I'm more, you know, I'm more
than my job.
I have a family.
And,
Teri Schmidt (34:34):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (34:35):
and so then it leads to a conversation,
Teri Schmidt (34:37):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (34:38):
yeah.
Teri Schmidt (34:39):
Yeah, and I think that, again, back to the
posture, you know, the openness,the.
I see you, I want to know you.
That comes across, through thatcuriosity, through that
questioning, I could see thatapplying, you know, back to the,
the topic of cultural humility.
You know, as we understand thecomplexity that makes up.
Dr. Joel Perez (35:02):
Mm-hmm.
Teri Schmidt (35:03):
Each person,
Dr. Joel Perez (35:04):
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Teri Schmidt (35:05):
I think that that same approach, that same
openness and curiosity andwillingness to learn can create
so much openness in, in a team.
Dr. Joel Perez (35:21):
Yes, for sure.
I mean, I think that's, thatgoes back to the, the culture
belonging, right?
People feel like
Teri Schmidt (35:26):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (35:26):
they are and, and not be afraid to be, or not,
not living or showing up at workwith the fear that you're gonna
come down on them if, if theymake a mistake or if they
Teri Schmidt (35:39):
Yeah.
Dr. Joel Perez (35:40):
through, that you genuinely care about them as
people.
Teri Schmidt (35:43):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (35:44):
'cause people are people, right?
And we're gonna bring what'shappening in our world, into our
work space
Teri Schmidt (35:51):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (35:52):
leaders who are rec, who recognize that to then
say, okay, how do we, how do wemove forward if there's
challenges?
Or how do we celebrate for whoyou are that you
Teri Schmidt (36:04):
Yeah.
Dr. Joel Perez (36:05):
connected to the organization in that sense of
belonging and that psychologicalsafety so that you can thrive.
opposed to just, you know,showing up to work because you
just need a paycheck and you'renot happy.
Yeah.
Teri Schmidt (36:17):
Yeah.
Yeah, definitely.
You know, one, one thing that Iheard almost, not against
curiosity, but it's somethingthat I think could dissuade
curiosity perhaps.
You know, and I'm thinking backto the pandemic, back to, you
know, right after George Floydand.
I think I understand what wasbehind this, but a lot of times
when people were askingquestions, they were met with
(36:39):
the response of, you need to doyour own research.
I'm not, and I, under, and I, myunderstanding of that is that
because at that time.
You know, people in marginalizedgroups are being put on panels
in front of entire, you know,organizations and, and kind of
being used as the, the solesource of information.
(37:01):
But I just, you know, kind ofwanted to hear your perspective
on, on that and how you canstill be curious but not take
advantage of someone or, youknow, in, in any other way.
Yeah.
Dr. Joel Perez (37:15):
that's a great question, Terry.
And so the way I would, so if Iwas working with a white leader
who's like, I really want toknow more about you, Joel, but,
ask you to do something right?
Is to one, ask permission,right?
And say,
Teri Schmidt (37:28):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (37:28):
Joel.
There's this event coming up.
We're looking for group.
Don't need to say yes.
Teri Schmidt (37:36):
Yeah.
Dr. Joel Perez (37:37):
But would you be willing to serve on this panel
or, Hey Joel, I wanna ask aquestion about your culture
because I'm really curious andit's coming from a place of
curiosity and genuineness.
Are
Teri Schmidt (37:49):
Yeah.
Dr. Joel Perez (37:50):
answering the question?
Right?
Teri Schmidt (37:53):
Right.
Dr. Joel Perez (37:53):
And it gives me permission to say no.
Teri Schmidt (37:56):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (37:57):
And if, if I say no, then that person has given
me, you know, has givenpermission to say no, and
they're just gonna walk away.
They're not gonna keep pressing.
Right.
Teri Schmidt (38:07):
Right.
Dr. Joel Perez (38:07):
an, here's a a, I guess a real life example.
I just gave a talk last week
Teri Schmidt (38:11):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (38:12):
and I used an example in the talk that didn't
go over very well, right?
That I, offended this oneperson.
They provided the feedback viaemail.
And I responded to the email andI said, I am so sorry.
I would like to talk to youfurther about this if you would
like, don't feel obligated torespond.
(38:34):
I just wanna make myselfavailable to hear
Teri Schmidt (38:38):
Mm.
Yes.
Dr. Joel Perez (38:41):
much for the feedback, Joel.
Teri Schmidt (38:44):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (38:45):
I didn't get defensive'cause it would've been
very easy.
It was a virtual presentation,it was a virtual keynote
Teri Schmidt (38:52):
Yeah.
Okay.
Dr. Joel Perez (38:53):
issues and it was hard.
I couldn't read the audience,but I didn't, I didn't get, I
didn't get defensive, right?
I'd say,
Teri Schmidt (38:58):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (38:58):
because of this.
And so when you are wanting toknow more about someone's
culture, identity is just askpermission is like,
Teri Schmidt (39:07):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (39:08):
to know more.
Are you okay if we like sit.
And And then you, Terry, have,you know, the permission to say,
yes, I'd love to sit with youand talk, or,
Teri Schmidt (39:18):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (39:19):
tired right now.
I am, I am just exhausted.
Teri Schmidt (39:22):
Yeah.
Dr. Joel Perez (39:23):
then for me to say, okay, I'm good.
Teri Schmidt (39:26):
Yeah.
Dr. Joel Perez (39:27):
And
Teri Schmidt (39:27):
Yeah.
Dr. Joel Perez (39:27):
back unless the other thing you could say is
when you're ready, I'm here
Teri Schmidt (39:32):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (39:32):
you ever feel like you can talk about it,
Teri Schmidt (39:34):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (39:34):
but if not, good.
Teri Schmidt (39:37):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Just, just so in that respect,in the asking permission, and I,
I think what's so beautifulabout the example you shared is
that, you know, I, I, I putmyself in that place and I could
see myself feeling very, like,eager to have a conversation
with that person because itmeets a need for me.
You know, it, it brings me someclosure, but the way that you
(39:59):
did it was to respect thatperson and.
Offer, offer the opportunity totalk further about it, but if
it, it wasn't, you know, a goodmove for that person, then you
were, fine.
It's because it's not about youat that point.
It's, it's about them.
Dr. Joel Perez (40:18):
Yeah.
And in the book, I talk aboutthe book, did that just happen?
Teri Schmidt (40:22):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (40:23):
They talk about how to, how to approach when
you, the leader commit amicroaggression or make a
mistake, right?
Particularly with
Teri Schmidt (40:30):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (40:47):
a man of color who grew up, you know, below the
poverty line.
It does a lot of diversity work.
I still have bias.
It still shows up.
I still commit a micro, youknow, I still commit
microaggressions.
It's what do I do and how do I,how do I, well apologize, but
then what do I do to learn fromthat so it
Teri Schmidt (41:07):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (41:08):
happen again?
Is really, really important.
Teri Schmidt (41:11):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And that is, that is the, thestance of cultural humility.
So I, I think that's great,great way to end and a great
example.
If people want to learn moreabout your work, obviously by
the book, and, and we'll linkthat and, and link, you know,
share all of your links, butwhere else would you like them
(41:32):
to go?
Dr. Joel Perez (41:33):
Yeah, LinkedIn.
You could find me on LinkedIn,but if you're interested in, in
reading a portion of the book,you can go to dear white
leader.com and you can downloadthe first chapter.
Teri Schmidt (41:45):
Oh, great.
Dr. Joel Perez (41:46):
And at, no, there's no cost to that
Teri Schmidt (41:48):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (41:49):
one.
It gives you like, Hey, I'mgonna read through this, and if
you like it, then you can, youknow, it's available on all the
platforms, not just not justprint, but it's available on
Teri Schmidt (41:58):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (41:59):
And so, but if you wanna download the first
chapter just to say, okay, thisresonates with me, I wanna read
more.
Teri Schmidt (42:06):
Excellent.
Excellent.
Well, we'll make sure thatdirect link is included as well.
And I just wanna thank you againfor your time and, and for the
work that you do each day.
I think there's so much for usto learn from it and our world
would be a much better place ifwe could all approach it from
the posture of culturalhumility.
(42:27):
So thank you for.
Being the voice for that.
Dr. Joel Perez (42:31):
Well, it's been my pleasure and I've really
enjoyed this conversation.
Thank you, Terry.
Teri Schmidt (42:39):
If there's one thing to take away from today's
conversation, it's this,leadership isn't about having
all the answers.
It's about staying curious andcommitted to growth.
This week, I invite you toapproach one conversation with
the posture of culturalhumility.
Ask yourself, what might I bemissing?
(43:01):
Thanks again to Dr.
Joel for coming on the podcastfor this conversation.
And be sure to check out hiswebsite with the free chapter
download and definitely go outand grab his book because
especially in these times, aposture of cultural humility can
be so powerful.
(43:22):
Have a great week and I lookforward to being together with
you again next week.
Welcome back.
What of the key to trulyinclusive leadership isn't
knowing more, but insteadapproaching others with less
certainty?
In today's episode of StrongLeaders Serve, I'm joined by Dr.
Joel Perez, a dynamic executiveand leadership coach, speaker
and consultant who is reshapinghow we think about leadership,
(00:22):
belonging, and inclusion?
Joel's work centers on culturalhumility, a posture, not a
destination, that empowersleaders to navigate complexity
with openness, curiosity, andcourage.
He's also the author of DearWhite Leader.
How to achieve organizationalexcellence through cultural
(00:45):
humility, A thought provokingguide that invites leaders to
transform not only themselves,but the organizations and
communities they serve.
In this conversation, we diginto how cultural humility
differs from culturalcompetency, why perfectionism
can get in the way of trueinclusion, and how leaders can
(01:07):
cultivate a space wherecuriosity isn't just allowed.
It's expected, so let's get intothe conversation.
I'm Terry Schmidt, executive andleadership coach at Strong
Leaders Serve, where we workwith compassionate driven
leaders to transform potentialinto performance.
And this is the Strong LeadersServe podcast.
Teri Schmidt (02:24):
Well, welcome to the Strong Leaders Serve
Podcast.
Joel, it's so nice to have youon.
Dr. Joel Perez (02:29):
Yeah, it's great to be here.
Thank you for having me on onthe podcast, Terry.
I really appreciate you makingthe time to, to have me on.
Teri Schmidt (02:36):
Of course, of course.
It was, it was so fun to meetyou and, and get to know you a
little bit through Paul SandbarsLego series play,
Dr. Joel Perez (02:44):
Mm-hmm.
Teri Schmidt (02:44):
workshop, and it was.
Hilarious.
As I mentioned to you that I hadjust been listening to you on
Dave's Coaching for LeadersPodcast and then saw that you
were gonna be there in theworkshop in person, and just
love the work that you are doingaround cultural humility.
Dr. Joel Perez (03:02):
Yeah, thank you.
Yeah, it's it.
It's interesting how thathappened and I too am very happy
that I got, I got to meet youand got the invitation and went
through the training with youand yeah, looking forward to
this
Teri Schmidt (03:15):
Yeah.
Well, excellent.
Well, I'd love for you to justtell us a little bit about your
story and how you came to befocused on cultural humility.
Dr. Joel Perez (03:25):
Yeah, that's a, that's a good question.
And I first became familiar withthe term in the mid two
thousands.
I was working at a college up inthe Northwest and I heard
someone speak and reference it,and it was new to me at the
time.
stuck with me, mainly because Ihad, I know this may be a
(03:45):
question down the road.
It stuck with me because I hadalways been wanting more than
just cultural competency,
Teri Schmidt (03:53):
Mm
Dr. Joel Perez (03:54):
the term culture humility really resonated with
me because I have always feltlike competency.
Competency infers that it'ssomething to be achieved,
whereas
Teri Schmidt (04:05):
mm.
Dr. Joel Perez (04:06):
humility felt to me like, oh, okay, this is a
posture, this is something thatcan help you navigate the
complexity.
And that's what, you know, Italk about that in the book.
Teri Schmidt (04:18):
Yeah.
Dr. Joel Perez (04:18):
And it wasn't until I started, I was going
through the coachingcertification program.
And, and I started thinkingabout like, you know, as we do
when we go through thosecertification programs, those of
you that are coaches and andthat are listening, that you
start thinking about yourclients and your programs.
(04:38):
I realized that I wanted to dosomething around cultural
humility to help leaders whoidentify as white get better at
navigate at just leading diverseteams.
I
Teri Schmidt (04:51):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (04:52):
as Mexican American, Chicano, son of
immigrants.
Spanish was my first language.
have never had a problem beingin spaces where I am helping
people get better as opposed tolike not wanting to work with
people who identify as white inthis area.
And I have colleagues who toldme, they recognize themselves
(05:12):
like, Joel, we're really happyyou're doing that work.
That's not the work that wewanna do.
Right.
And so I started coachingpeople.
I called it culture, humility,coaching.
And then as I was working withclients, I realized, you know
what?
I think there's a book here.
I think there's a, I wanna getthe word out to others than just
my clients or the people thatare interested in hiring me as a
(05:34):
coach.
so,
Teri Schmidt (05:36):
Yeah.
Dr. Joel Perez (05:36):
but going back to your original question, mid
two thousands is when I becamefamiliar with the term.
Then over time I had done someresearch and really thinking
more about it and thenrecognizing that competency for
me was, felt limiting, but stillextremely important to develop.
And I call it, I reference it asthe foundation towards
Teri Schmidt (06:01):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (06:01):
a posture of culture and humility.
But I, but as I worked withpeople and done, when I speak
and done workshops.
The idea that culturalcompetency infers that it's
something to be achieved reallyresonates with people and they
too want, there has to besomething more than just getting
a certificate checking a box,which what, which is what
(06:24):
sometimes it feels like topeople when they hear the term
competency.
Teri Schmidt (06:28):
Yeah.
Yeah, that, that's such a goodpoint.
And the, the distinction betweenthe two.
Before I dig into that a littlebit more, because I definitely
have some.
Things that I'd like to ask youto, to go a little bit deeper
on, but I'd love to just, youknow, hear a little bit more
about the book.
I had the opportunity to read itand love, love the approach as
(06:48):
well.
As, you know, the practical tipsin it about, you know, these are
the steps that you can take notonly as an individual, but also.
From a systems perspective, youknow, that that needs to be in
place.
So I'd love for you to share,I've heard a little bit about
the story kind of behind thebook.
Dear White Leader, I think itstarted as just one article, if
(07:10):
I remember correctly, and, andthen evolved into a book.
But I'd love to hear a littlebit more about that from your
perspective.
Dr. Joel Perez (07:16):
Yeah, so the, the title itself and the whole
idea of, of why also I wrotethe, or really why I chose the
title is after the murder ofGeorge Floyd, was not in a good
place very angry, upset, andreally felt like I needed to
call out my colleagues andfriends who identify as white,
(07:38):
who are leaders who are in, in.
Organizations and they havepositions of influence really
start helping change systems.
Teri Schmidt (07:48):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (07:49):
and so I wrote a blog post with that title, dear
White Leader, I talk about why Ithink it's important for, for
white people to get engaged inthis where particularly in that
moment in history, which stillof course applies to today.
and so I wrote the blog post.
then as I started thinking aboutwriting this book around
(08:11):
culture, humility, I reallywanted my target audience to be
people who identify as whiteleaders who are wanting to get
better at leading work,inclusion work, creating a sense
of belonging.
I.
And, and so that is what, youknow, sort of the title.
And then the, the work itselfwas, I, I knew cultural
(08:33):
competency was important, and I,but I knew there was more to
that and, and wanted to provideopportunities for, to learn how
do you, how do you move fromcultural competency to cultural
humility?
so I developed an online course.
It's available on my website.
That's not my ask at the end,but,
Teri Schmidt (08:50):
Yeah.
Dr. Joel Perez (08:51):
people wanna, wanna, it's a mini course.
And
Teri Schmidt (08:54):
Great.
Dr. Joel Perez (08:55):
that process I got really excited and I wanted
my doctoral advisor to share,you know, to write an
endorsement for it.
Teri Schmidt (09:02):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (09:02):
so I, I sent it to her.
We then met for coffee and shelooked at me and I tell the
story in the book, and she, shelooked at me.
She said, this is a great goalthat you're talking about things
for individuals, but how doesthat impact the organization?
Teri Schmidt (09:19):
Mm.
Dr. Joel Perez (09:20):
it's not just about you.
It's important for you to do thework,
Teri Schmidt (09:23):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (09:24):
how is it gonna lead to change, which is what's
necessary
Teri Schmidt (09:28):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (09:29):
for PE, for organizations to become more
inclusive.
so I took that advice from her.
And integrated that in thebooks.
It's not just about, one of theaspects of cultural humility is
self-awareness andself-critique, which is
extremely important in thefoundation, it's also about how
do you change the organizationthat way I.
(09:51):
Things are made better foreverybody and, and I also
believe not just organizations,but then our, our communities.
Teri Schmidt (10:01):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (10:02):
in the book, and when I do, when I do these
talks, I talk about thatcommunity isn't, community is
broad.
Meaning it's family, it'sfriends, it's faith communities,
it's our volunteerorganizations.
So you start developing thisposture, it.
It's gonna bleed or grow intoevery aspect of your life that
(10:24):
you're able to engage in theseconversations.
With this posture of culture,humility where you're seeking to
understand versus seeking toconvince.
And so, but to back to yourpoint, it was yes, the blog
post.
Yes.
That's also what led, like, Ithink, I think there's a book
here.
I think I'm gonna
Teri Schmidt (10:43):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (10:44):
that.
Not leverage, but take theexperience.
I'm, I am.
I'm having because of the murderof George Floyd at the height of
the pandemic, is that I reallywant to communicate to people
the need for change asindividuals and ultimately the
organizations that we serve.
Teri Schmidt (11:00):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
And you, you do, do you do thatso well in the book?
I, I know there are a lot ofbooks that focus on one or the
other.
But the way that you combineunder this umbrella of cultural
humility.
I think it's really powerful.
Dr. Joel Perez (11:14):
Yep.
Teri Schmidt (11:14):
And you know, back to that cultural humility versus
cultural competency.
I love what you said about, youknow, cultural competency feels
almost like it's something to beachieved.
Like you, you know, you get acertificate, you're competent.
You, you've gotta gotta check inthe box.
And as I understand it, and Iwould love to hear more from
(11:35):
your perspective about.
How you understand and definecultural humility.
But as I understand it, I thinkI heard you say cultural
humility, you know, allows youto deal with the complexity that
is culture.
You know that I think a lot oftimes, you know, people are
(11:56):
afraid because they're comingfrom that cultural competency
angle of, I don't knoweverything about this person's
culture.
And then, you know, even though.
They identify that certain way,they might not be like someone
else who identifies the sameway.
And, and how do I deal withthat?
I don't wanna assume anything.
And I think sometimes that getspeople into a place of fear and
(12:19):
avoidance.
And as I understand it, culturalhumility is a way out of that.
So I'd love to hear from youmore about that.
Dr. Joel Perez (12:27):
Yeah.
It, it is.
And I, I was doing a webinar andsomeone asked me why do I use
the term humility.
Why, why do I call it a posture?
Teri Schmidt (12:39):
Mm.
Dr. Joel Perez (12:40):
the way I described the way, what I, how I
described it was that while theposture of culture, humility in,
in my mind is you have open arms
Teri Schmidt (12:48):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (12:49):
to receive even when it's not necessarily
positive things.
And,
Teri Schmidt (12:55):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (12:56):
so it's about developing that posture because
you're gonna be able to benimble.
Teri Schmidt (13:04):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (13:05):
things are gonna happen in your life that just
like in anyone's life, happen inour lives where they don't go
the way we think they're gonnago.
People get angry at us.
We make
Teri Schmidt (13:16):
Yeah.
Dr. Joel Perez (13:17):
And so having that posture allows you to,
like, allows you to think of themistakes as opportunities.
Teri Schmidt (13:27):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (13:27):
grow.
So I talk about, in, in thebook, I talk about having a
growth mindset, right?
The
Teri Schmidt (13:31):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (13:32):
Carol Dweck's done around growth
Teri Schmidt (13:34):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (13:35):
easy.
but it's important because we,we are gonna make mistakes.
all have inherent biases thatwe've learned over time.
Teri Schmidt (13:47):
Yeah.
Dr. Joel Perez (13:47):
one of the things I talk about is getting
clear on your biases.
Then it's not about it's abouthow do you mitigate their impact
because they're not
Teri Schmidt (13:56):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (13:56):
You cannot eradicate bias.
We all have biases, right?
Teri Schmidt (14:01):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (14:02):
and that posture is gonna help you and help the
leader, the coach executive.
Recognize, yeah.
I'm gonna make mistakes.
It's what do I do with thosemistakes when they happen that's
gonna help me be better.
Right?
That's
Teri Schmidt (14:18):
Right.
Dr. Joel Perez (14:18):
me become, I talk about becoming an
exceptional leader.
Teri Schmidt (14:22):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (14:22):
and because I think we as leaders I, from, I
guess I'll speak for myself, Iwanna keep getting better,
right?
I wanna improve my craft, it'snot science per se, like they're
just boxes that you check.
It is an art, meaning it doestake work making mistakes along
(14:43):
the way, but the idea is, isgrowing from those mistakes or
seeing the mistakes asopportunities to develop
yourself, as well as developingthe people around you.
So the book it's, it's, youknow, it's circular,
self-awareness, self-critique,redressing power imbalances,
organizational change.
But it always goes back toself-awareness.
Teri Schmidt (15:04):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (15:05):
Because we're gonna make mistakes.
Teri Schmidt (15:08):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (15:09):
and no matter how good we think we are, going
to make mistakes.
But it's, and just withleadership, right?
Those of you who are listening,who are leaders, you know you're
gonna make mistakes and you domake mistakes.
There's not a perfect leader,but it's what you do with those
mistakes that make you a, thatmake you a better leader and a
(15:29):
leader that people want to wantto follow.
Teri Schmidt (15:32):
Yeah.
Yeah, definitely.
So I, I guess just to level set,you know, for anyone who's not
familiar with culturalcompetency, how would that
differ?
You know, if we were todistinguish between those two,
in your mind, how do they differcultural competency and cultural
humility?
I.
Dr. Joel Perez (15:51):
Yeah, the, the main difference is, is really, I
mean, again, I would say toanswer your question the main
difference or the difference isthat competency is a mindset
that people have, meaningthey've, they, they are like, I
just want to get to from point Ato point B culture.
Humility is yes, you start atpoint A, but there is no point B
(16:14):
because society has changed andwill continue to change.
Competency.
So it's, so I would say thedifferent, going back, the
difference is mindset.
Meaning that competency is thatcheck a box.
I attended a course, I read abook.
Culture.
Humility is this Posture becausewe know that complexity happens
(16:36):
and things aren't stagnant,right?
Teri Schmidt (16:39):
Yeah.
Dr. Joel Perez (16:39):
so we're always growing.
Teri Schmidt (16:43):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (16:43):
So it's really a mindset, although there are
aspects of competency that withhumility, particularly around
the self-awareness piece.
So developing culturalself-awareness important in
competency and culture,humility,
Teri Schmidt (16:58):
Mm.
Dr. Joel Perez (16:59):
there's aspects that you talk about when you're
doing cultural competencycourses or whatever about
changing the
Teri Schmidt (17:04):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (17:06):
Culture.
Humility really, I believe,allows you to go deeper you are
thinking about how you do changethe system in a way that's gonna
bring about meaningful change.
Competency, although the TerryCrosses associates did a good
job of laying the foundationorganizational change.
(17:27):
But I think the work of Travonand Garcia around culture,
humility, I think provides adeeper way to think about
changing the system so You'reable to be nimble
Teri Schmidt (17:39):
yeah.
Dr. Joel Perez (17:41):
society is ever changing as
Teri Schmidt (17:43):
Right.
Dr. Joel Perez (17:44):
hard, as hard as that may be for certain people.
Teri Schmidt (17:47):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (17:48):
is that things continue to shift and change,
and we have to learn how toadapt the way we lead based on
the communities we serve andwill will serve into the future.
Teri Schmidt (18:03):
Right, right.
And, and those communities arecomplex and you took the word
outta my mouth that, you know,need to be nimble.
I, and I know you acknowledgedcultural competency as kind of a
foundation, almost like a, abase knowledge.
But then that humility on top ofthat is, does enable you to
adapt to the complexity that isall around us so that you can be
(18:26):
nimble and, exude that same carefor people.
That probably drove you toexplore cultural competency in
the beginning.
Dr. Joel Perez (18:35):
Yeah, yeah,
Teri Schmidt (18:36):
Excellent.
Dr. Joel Perez (18:37):
in, in the book, I tell a story about how our
17-year-old came out to us,
Teri Schmidt (18:43):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (18:44):
I really did at that moment recognize that what
I learned 15 years ago as a.
Parent who is culturallycompetent that I wasn't ready
for the shift for us as parentsin creating space for them to
explore their identities.
Teri Schmidt (19:01):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (19:02):
what I was taught 15 years ago was when
society was in a very differentplace than where it is now.
And having that posture hasallowed me to recognize that and
also acknowledge, like we'vetalked about already, is I'm
gonna make mistakes.
Teri Schmidt (19:18):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (19:19):
my child.
Teri Schmidt (19:21):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (19:21):
to say the wrong thing, but what do I, how do I
learn from that?
And, you know, learning how toapologize and those, and that's
really, really important when itcomes
Teri Schmidt (19:31):
Yeah.
Dr. Joel Perez (19:31):
affirming people's identities.
Teri Schmidt (19:33):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (19:34):
So that you can create the space or so that we
can create space for Jaden togrow in their own identity
without feeling like they haveto conform to what we want them
to conform to.
Teri Schmidt (19:46):
Right,
Dr. Joel Perez (19:47):
Mm-hmm.
Teri Schmidt (19:48):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And that is such a powerfulposture
Dr. Joel Perez (19:53):
Mm-hmm.
Teri Schmidt (19:53):
for life, really
Dr. Joel Perez (19:54):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Teri Schmidt (19:56):
applies to, applies to so many different
situations.
You know, another thing thatprobably applies to more than
just, talking about culture, butis, you talk about perfectionism
and you talk about that beingone of the characteristics that
makes it difficult fororganizations to be more
inclusive.
Dr. Joel Perez (20:14):
Yeah.
Teri Schmidt (20:15):
So I'd, I'd love to hear more about how that
relates to cultural humility.
Dr. Joel Perez (20:20):
Yeah.
So in, in the book I talk about,we talk about self-awareness,
self-critique, and in the secondphase or second is redressing
power imbalances, right?
As we begin to recognize that.
There are gaps in ourorganization, right?
So learning how to look at dataparticularly if you want to
create a more inclusiveorganization that meets the
needs of all the keystakeholders that we serve.
(20:44):
But I also talk about thesefeelings of estrangement,
Teri Schmidt (20:48):
And,
Dr. Joel Perez (20:49):
the opposite of a sense of belonging.
And one of them
Teri Schmidt (20:52):
mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (20:54):
as a, as a characteristic or as a component
of feelings of estrangement.
I, I was, I mean, I, I've beenguilty of this before.
I want things to be
Teri Schmidt (21:03):
Yeah.
Dr. Joel Perez (21:04):
want people to work a certain way, and the
reality is that no one'sperfect, right?
Yet we've been conditioned towant, want people to be perfect
or things to be perfect.
and so when someone makes amistake, focus on the mistake.
(21:25):
And sometimes that means forsome people it means.
Belittling an employee, thinkingless of them because they, they
messed up.
But a reframe is, so instead offocusing on the mistake and
making that person feel badabout their decision, what if we
came along with what if we camealongside with them and created
(21:48):
a learning opportunity for themto get better?
Teri Schmidt (21:51):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (21:52):
And, and wanting them to experiment.
So the, the, of the things thatI've heard and people talk about
is Pixar has been reallysuccessful because they allow
people to, to experiment, to trydifferent things.
They bring a lot of differentpeople into the conversation.
Companies that you wouldconsider innovative allow for
(22:13):
that space, for people to trythings and not be afraid of
being, you know, if they, ifthey make a mistake.
Teri Schmidt (22:19):
Yeah.
Dr. Joel Perez (22:20):
and we as leaders need to be better at
creating that space, that senseof belonging opposed to feelings
of estrangement.
Teri Schmidt (22:32):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (22:34):
really important.
And I'm not saying that youdon't keep people accountable,
so I don't want people to
Teri Schmidt (22:38):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (22:39):
what I'm saying.
If there needs to beaccountability, then there needs
to be accountability.
But we need, we as leaders needto let go our desire to, to of,
of our desire for people to beperfect,
Teri Schmidt (22:53):
Right, right.
Dr. Joel Perez (22:54):
for things to be perfect.
Teri Schmidt (22:56):
Yeah.
Dr. Joel Perez (22:57):
earlier, we're gonna make mistakes.
We are not perfect people.
are not
Teri Schmidt (23:01):
Yeah.
Dr. Joel Perez (23:02):
And so that's why perfectionism can get in the
way of developing this, thisposture of cultural humility,
because
Teri Schmidt (23:11):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (23:11):
holding onto this idea that people and things
need to be perfect in order forus to be successful.
And the reality is, no, we'regonna make mistakes.
We need to try different things.
So it's creating that space forpeople and for us to try things
knowing that we may.
Do the wrong thing, but again,do we do with that mistake so we
(23:33):
can get better?
Teri Schmidt (23:34):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's, it is such a greatreminder because it it, it does
definitely limit that growthmindset that you spoke about.
And, you know, I think, as Ithink about our listeners, they
are compassionate drivenleaders.
So they care deeply aboutpeople.
And I think that.
(23:55):
Quest for perfectionism isparticularly powerful in the
cultural aspects.
So if they tend to, if theyidentify as white or are in some
other place of power,
Dr. Joel Perez (24:11):
Mm-hmm.
Teri Schmidt (24:11):
know, their desire to not say the wrong thing or do
the wrong thing, that mightoffend someone.
Dr. Joel Perez (24:18):
Mm-hmm.
Teri Schmidt (24:19):
And to be perfect in that way.
And I know I'm talking more nowon the individual, but I, I just
see that as being very powerful.
And, and can keep people in aplace of fear and avoidance and,
and just not wanting to exploreit, and then you don't get the
benefit and, you know, have thecuriosity with people to learn
(24:39):
about them and value from theirunique perspectives.
Dr. Joel Perez (24:44):
Yeah.
And, and in the book, and, andwhen I do the, when I do
workshops when I speak, tryingto get people to understand that
you what's happened, I, in oursociety, in our organizations
is, is we, we don't allow peoplewho are curious that are in the
middle
Teri Schmidt (25:02):
Mm.
Dr. Joel Perez (25:02):
explore because they're afraid that they're
gonna be labeled one thing oranother, or allowing the
extremes to influence.
And, I acknowledge that, youknow, as a man of color have
been doing diversity work for along time.
was on one extreme or have beenon one extreme or the other.
And if I hear someone from theother extreme early on in my
(25:24):
career, I would, label themright
Teri Schmidt (25:27):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (25:28):
wouldn't really wanna listen to them.
which then creates it, it thencreates environment where people
then isolate themselves becausethey're afraid to
Teri Schmidt (25:37):
Yeah.
Dr. Joel Perez (25:39):
So as organizations., Or as leaders of
organizations, we need to createspace.
For exploration and askingquestions, and that's gonna
Teri Schmidt (25:50):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (25:51):
have a better understanding so that they can
be better as opposed to justshutting down and isolating
themselves and like, Nope, it'sthat fixed mindset.
I'm just gonna keep doing whatI'm doing if I do anything
that's gonna offend someone,just, I'm just, I'm not, I'm
not, I don't want that formyself, so I'd rather just not
(26:12):
say anything at all.
Teri Schmidt (26:14):
Yeah.
Dr. Joel Perez (26:14):
where I, I believe that's become
problematic with our society
Teri Schmidt (26:19):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (26:19):
we
Teri Schmidt (26:20):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (26:20):
for space for conversation because we're
afraid of, of saying the wrongthing.
And,
Teri Schmidt (26:27):
Yeah.
Dr. Joel Perez (26:27):
And that's, you know, that, that, that could be
detrimental to the, this thisgoal of creating a sense of
belonging, the psychologicalsafety that our organizations
need.
Teri Schmidt (26:37):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, definitely.
And you know, I I think that I.
Ability of leaders to createthat space where people can be
curious and, and feel safe doingthat.
And I see the book Seek BehindYou as well.
We, we studied that for, for oneof our book club sessions.
Great, excellent book.
(26:58):
But I, you know, I think thatfeeling that safety to be
curious is something that.
Is difficult to foster inyourselves, but even, you know,
perhaps more difficult to fosterin a team.
So I'm curious what you've seenleaders, do you know, what steps
have they taken that has enabledthem to be curious themselves
(27:21):
but also set up that environmentwhere it is safe for a team to
be curious as it relates tocultural humility?
Dr. Joel Perez (27:30):
Yeah, that's a good question.
So in my coaching with leaders,we talk about, I coach around
helping the leader get learn howto be curious, right?
Teri Schmidt (27:39):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (27:40):
what's on my shirt,
Teri Schmidt (27:41):
Oh, it's on your shirt.
Well, yes.
Dr. Joel Perez (27:43):
by ask, learning how to ask themselves questions.
Like what am I not listening tomyself today?
Teri Schmidt (27:48):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (27:49):
Why do I find this challenging?
And then from a leadership orsupervision standpoint is what
can you do when you're, whenyou're supervising someone who,
who is making mistakes or notfollowing through of being
really directive?
Are is there, is, are thereopen-ended questions you can ask
(28:11):
to get a better sense of thatperson?
Like why they took thatapproach?
Teri Schmidt (28:16):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (28:17):
I have discovered as leaders start
applying those concepts is theycome back and say to me, was
really good.
Like, I learned so much.
And even though the, even thoughit was a mistake or that person
needs to get better, it was adifferent, the tone of the
conversation was different
Teri Schmidt (28:36):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (28:36):
if I were to just tell them, if you're not on
time, the next time I'm gonnafire you.
Right?
Teri Schmidt (28:41):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (28:42):
example, right.
Teri Schmidt (28:43):
Sure.
Dr. Joel Perez (28:44):
And so when they've applied what we've
coached around, they come backand report, oh, this is great.
And what that does in theorganization, or at least in
their, vertical or their area,is that people then begin to
like, Joel actually really wantsto know about me.
And, and, and, and he's, he'scurious.
(29:06):
And the one thing I do stressthat's really important is that
leaders.
Preface that they're going to becurious and they're gonna ask
questions not sure their, theirpeople know.
It's not that they're beingjudgemental.
They're
Teri Schmidt (29:21):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (29:22):
in creating that environment.
So they do that before they haveto ask questions so
Teri Schmidt (29:26):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (29:26):
someone doesn't go, why are you asking me that
question?
Like are
Teri Schmidt (29:29):
Right.
Dr. Joel Perez (29:30):
me?
Or, and so that's reallyimportant.
And so we, you know, I coacharound that.
But once they report, startingto apply, this curiosity,
learning, they can see thelearning start, start to happen
in the people that they lead.
Teri Schmidt (29:46):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (29:46):
It leads the people they lead to recognize
that they, they can get better.
And I am, I'm gonna be I theemployee more feel safety in
sharing with my boss when I makemistakes,
Teri Schmidt (30:03):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (30:04):
hiding the mistakes and that then bleeds
out into the overall team.
The other thing, I was workingwith an executive director.
And we're talking about theirteam meetings.
and I said, so are therequestions that you can ask one
to preface of the curiositypiece you're working through an
agenda or are there things youcan ask about certain, are there
(30:29):
things you can ask, depending onthe topic?
they then again, going back,they started applying it and
like their team then startedshowing up differently.
Right,
Teri Schmidt (30:38):
Interesting.
Dr. Joel Perez (30:39):
that the leader really wants to know for it's
coming from a genuine place,
Teri Schmidt (30:44):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (30:44):
it's about getting better as a team so they
can meet their, their team goalsand their organizational goals,
Teri Schmidt (30:51):
Right, right.
What would, what would be someexamples of, of questions that.
You've seen leaders utilize inin specific situations, if there
are any, you can share.
Dr. Joel Perez (31:03):
Yeah.
Well I was working with theclient today and she's got a
difficult employee who is verydemanding.
And one of the questions welanded on, or previously that we
landed on is'cause as the, asthe leader, particularly one
that you, a leader who reallylikes to serve their people.
When people come to us and askus that they want certain
(31:25):
things, we you know, either sayyes or no, which sometimes
doesn't go over well.
So the posture of what, what wetrain, what we coached around
was how can you be curious inthose moments, right?
You wanna listen to the person.
Teri Schmidt (31:43):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (31:44):
this is an extreme example.
Well, it, someone comes to youand they want a raise, right?
Teri Schmidt (31:50):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (31:50):
which is very common, right?
Yeah.
Teri Schmidt (31:53):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (31:53):
For you, the leader to say, I hear you.
What the question we land on,what if I can't give you what
you want?
Teri Schmidt (32:02):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (32:03):
the reality is that we can ask for lots of
things, but the organization maynot be able to give us that 10%
raise or that 15% raise and whatthat other, what their employee
then recognized.
They, they're still not happy.
But they feel like thisparticular leader felt like,
they feel like they've beenheard.
(32:24):
So it could be, Hey, Joel, Ihear you.
You want a 20% raise
Teri Schmidt (32:30):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (32:31):
and I'm gonna advocate for you, what if I
can't give you what you want?
Teri Schmidt (32:36):
Right,
Dr. Joel Perez (32:37):
What,
Teri Schmidt (32:37):
right.
Dr. Joel Perez (32:38):
happens then?
Right?
And that person then startsthinking, oh, okay.
well.
Am I not happy enough where Ilead the organization?
So that's an
Teri Schmidt (32:45):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (32:46):
The, the
Teri Schmidt (32:47):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (32:48):
is you know helping team.
So Chi Yoka talks about this
Teri Schmidt (32:52):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (32:52):
The, the questions to ask create a
culture of, of curiosityorganization,
Teri Schmidt (32:57):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (32:59):
is helping leaders use the phrase, tell me
more.
Right.
Teri Schmidt (33:04):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (33:04):
they hear they're leading, say something
that just creates like somedissonance or questions to get
in the habit of just say, tellme more.
Right?
Teri Schmidt (33:15):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr. Joel Perez (33:16):
that when leaders start doing that, their,
what they report back to me isthat their employees feel like,
yeah, I need to be like, yeah, Iwanna share with you more.
I just need the prompt, right?
And so, so that's an example,another example.
But not a question, but it's astatement.
Right?
But it leads to someconversation.
Teri Schmidt (33:37):
Yeah.
Dr. Joel Perez (33:38):
the, the other one in particular that, that
leaders can use when someone isnot meeting expectations,
Teri Schmidt (33:44):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (33:45):
right?
Or, not following through, totell them, okay, so.
Our agreement or the expectationwas that you get this report in
on time or that you complete theassignment by the state, didn't
happen.
Help me understand what the,help me understand what the
(34:05):
context of you not being able tomeet that expectation or make
Teri Schmidt (34:09):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Dr. Joel Perez (34:11):
leads to a conversation, right?
As opposed to like, you're notmeeting
Teri Schmidt (34:14):
Right.
Dr. Joel Perez (34:15):
you need to change.
You
Teri Schmidt (34:17):
Right?
Dr. Joel Perez (34:18):
in that person, right.
Or why it is that they are notmeeting the
Teri Schmidt (34:22):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (34:25):
And it could be they're
Teri Schmidt (34:26):
Yeah.
Dr. Joel Perez (34:26):
with the work, or it could be like, I just had
a lot of stuff going on and I'm,I'm more, you know, I'm more
than my job.
I have a family.
And,
Teri Schmidt (34:34):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (34:35):
and so then it leads to a conversation,
Teri Schmidt (34:37):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (34:38):
yeah.
Teri Schmidt (34:39):
Yeah, and I think that, again, back to the
posture, you know, the openness,the.
I see you, I want to know you.
That comes across, through thatcuriosity, through that
questioning, I could see thatapplying, you know, back to the,
the topic of cultural humility.
You know, as we understand thecomplexity that makes up.
Dr. Joel Perez (35:02):
Mm-hmm.
Teri Schmidt (35:03):
Each person,
Dr. Joel Perez (35:04):
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Teri Schmidt (35:05):
I think that that same approach, that same
openness and curiosity andwillingness to learn can create
so much openness in, in a team.
Dr. Joel Perez (35:21):
Yes, for sure.
I mean, I think that's, thatgoes back to the, the culture
belonging, right?
People feel like
Teri Schmidt (35:26):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (35:26):
they are and, and not be afraid to be, or not,
not living or showing up at workwith the fear that you're gonna
come down on them if, if theymake a mistake or if they
Teri Schmidt (35:39):
Yeah.
Dr. Joel Perez (35:40):
through, that you genuinely care about them as
people.
Teri Schmidt (35:43):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (35:44):
'cause people are people, right?
And we're gonna bring what'shappening in our world, into our
work space
Teri Schmidt (35:51):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (35:52):
leaders who are rec, who recognize that to then
say, okay, how do we, how do wemove forward if there's
challenges?
Or how do we celebrate for whoyou are that you
Teri Schmidt (36:04):
Yeah.
Dr. Joel Perez (36:05):
connected to the organization in that sense of
belonging and that psychologicalsafety so that you can thrive.
opposed to just, you know,showing up to work because you
just need a paycheck and you'renot happy.
Yeah.
Teri Schmidt (36:17):
Yeah.
Yeah, definitely.
You know, one, one thing that Iheard almost, not against
curiosity, but it's somethingthat I think could dissuade
curiosity perhaps.
You know, and I'm thinking backto the pandemic, back to, you
know, right after George Floydand.
I think I understand what wasbehind this, but a lot of times
when people were askingquestions, they were met with
(36:39):
the response of, you need to doyour own research.
I'm not, and I, under, and I, myunderstanding of that is that
because at that time.
You know, people in marginalizedgroups are being put on panels
in front of entire, you know,organizations and, and kind of
being used as the, the solesource of information.
(37:01):
But I just, you know, kind ofwanted to hear your perspective
on, on that and how you canstill be curious but not take
advantage of someone or, youknow, in, in any other way.
Yeah.
Dr. Joel Perez (37:15):
that's a great question, Terry.
And so the way I would, so if Iwas working with a white leader
who's like, I really want toknow more about you, Joel, but,
ask you to do something right?
Is to one, ask permission,right?
And say,
Teri Schmidt (37:28):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (37:28):
Joel.
There's this event coming up.
We're looking for group.
Don't need to say yes.
Teri Schmidt (37:36):
Yeah.
Dr. Joel Perez (37:37):
But would you be willing to serve on this panel
or, Hey Joel, I wanna ask aquestion about your culture
because I'm really curious andit's coming from a place of
curiosity and genuineness.
Are
Teri Schmidt (37:49):
Yeah.
Dr. Joel Perez (37:50):
answering the question?
Right?
Teri Schmidt (37:53):
Right.
Dr. Joel Perez (37:53):
And it gives me permission to say no.
Teri Schmidt (37:56):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (37:57):
And if, if I say no, then that person has given
me, you know, has givenpermission to say no, and
they're just gonna walk away.
They're not gonna keep pressing.
Right.
Teri Schmidt (38:07):
Right.
Dr. Joel Perez (38:07):
an, here's a a, I guess a real life example.
I just gave a talk last week
Teri Schmidt (38:11):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (38:12):
and I used an example in the talk that didn't
go over very well, right?
That I, offended this oneperson.
They provided the feedback viaemail.
And I responded to the email andI said, I am so sorry.
I would like to talk to youfurther about this if you would
like, don't feel obligated torespond.
(38:34):
I just wanna make myselfavailable to hear
Teri Schmidt (38:38):
Mm.
Yes.
Dr. Joel Perez (38:41):
much for the feedback, Joel.
Teri Schmidt (38:44):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (38:45):
I didn't get defensive'cause it would've been
very easy.
It was a virtual presentation,it was a virtual keynote
Teri Schmidt (38:52):
Yeah.
Okay.
Dr. Joel Perez (38:53):
issues and it was hard.
I couldn't read the audience,but I didn't, I didn't get, I
didn't get defensive, right?
I'd say,
Teri Schmidt (38:58):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (38:58):
because of this.
And so when you are wanting toknow more about someone's
culture, identity is just askpermission is like,
Teri Schmidt (39:07):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (39:08):
to know more.
Are you okay if we like sit.
And And then you, Terry, have,you know, the permission to say,
yes, I'd love to sit with youand talk, or,
Teri Schmidt (39:18):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (39:19):
tired right now.
I am, I am just exhausted.
Teri Schmidt (39:22):
Yeah.
Dr. Joel Perez (39:23):
then for me to say, okay, I'm good.
Teri Schmidt (39:26):
Yeah.
Dr. Joel Perez (39:27):
And
Teri Schmidt (39:27):
Yeah.
Dr. Joel Perez (39:27):
back unless the other thing you could say is
when you're ready, I'm here
Teri Schmidt (39:32):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (39:32):
you ever feel like you can talk about it,
Teri Schmidt (39:34):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (39:34):
but if not, good.
Teri Schmidt (39:37):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Just, just so in that respect,in the asking permission, and I,
I think what's so beautifulabout the example you shared is
that, you know, I, I, I putmyself in that place and I could
see myself feeling very, like,eager to have a conversation
with that person because itmeets a need for me.
You know, it, it brings me someclosure, but the way that you
(39:59):
did it was to respect thatperson and.
Offer, offer the opportunity totalk further about it, but if
it, it wasn't, you know, a goodmove for that person, then you
were, fine.
It's because it's not about youat that point.
It's, it's about them.
Dr. Joel Perez (40:18):
Yeah.
And in the book, I talk aboutthe book, did that just happen?
Teri Schmidt (40:22):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (40:23):
They talk about how to, how to approach when
you, the leader commit amicroaggression or make a
mistake, right?
Particularly with
Teri Schmidt (40:30):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (40:47):
a man of color who grew up, you know, below the
poverty line.
It does a lot of diversity work.
I still have bias.
It still shows up.
I still commit a micro, youknow, I still commit
microaggressions.
It's what do I do and how do I,how do I, well apologize, but
then what do I do to learn fromthat so it
Teri Schmidt (41:07):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (41:08):
happen again?
Is really, really important.
Teri Schmidt (41:11):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And that is, that is the, thestance of cultural humility.
So I, I think that's great,great way to end and a great
example.
If people want to learn moreabout your work, obviously by
the book, and, and we'll linkthat and, and link, you know,
share all of your links, butwhere else would you like them
(41:32):
to go?
Dr. Joel Perez (41:33):
Yeah, LinkedIn.
You could find me on LinkedIn,but if you're interested in, in
reading a portion of the book,you can go to dear white
leader.com and you can downloadthe first chapter.
Teri Schmidt (41:45):
Oh, great.
Dr. Joel Perez (41:46):
And at, no, there's no cost to that
Teri Schmidt (41:48):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (41:49):
one.
It gives you like, Hey, I'mgonna read through this, and if
you like it, then you can, youknow, it's available on all the
platforms, not just not justprint, but it's available on
Teri Schmidt (41:58):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Perez (41:59):
And so, but if you wanna download the first
chapter just to say, okay, thisresonates with me, I wanna read
more.
Teri Schmidt (42:06):
Excellent.
Excellent.
Well, we'll make sure thatdirect link is included as well.
And I just wanna thank you againfor your time and, and for the
work that you do each day.
I think there's so much for usto learn from it and our world
would be a much better place ifwe could all approach it from
the posture of culturalhumility.
(42:27):
So thank you for.
Being the voice for that.
Dr. Joel Perez (42:31):
Well, it's been my pleasure and I've really
enjoyed this conversation.
Thank you, Terry.
Teri Schmidt (42:39):
If there's one thing to take away from today's
conversation, it's this,leadership isn't about having
all the answers.
It's about staying curious andcommitted to growth.
This week, I invite you toapproach one conversation with
the posture of culturalhumility.
Ask yourself, what might I bemissing?
(43:01):
Thanks again to Dr.
Joel for coming on the podcastfor this conversation.
And be sure to check out hiswebsite with the free chapter
download and definitely go outand grab his book because
especially in these times, aposture of cultural humility can
be so powerful.
(43:22):
Have a great week and I lookforward to being together with
you again next week.
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