August 20, 2025 • 45 mins
What if true recognition at work wasn’t about awards or bonuses, but about helping people feel they genuinely matter every single day?
In this episode, Dr. Zach Mercurio joins Teri Schmidt to reveal why small, everyday interactions, not flashy programs, are the secret sauce behind thriving, high-performing teams.
Together, they unpack the science of “mattering,” practical leadership skills you can use today, and why AI will never replace the power of human connection at work.
Resources:
- Zach's website (with free resources, including a self-assessment)
- Connect with Zach on LinkedIn
Connect on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/teri-m-schmidt/
Get 1-on-1 leadership support from Teri here: https://www.strongleadersserve.com/coaching
Set up an intro call with Teri: https://calendly.com/terischmidt/discoverycall
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
You've probably heard that as aleader, it's very important to
recognize your team if you wantthem to perform, but what does
it really mean to recognizesomeone at work?
Is it the award, the bonus, theemployee of the month plaque on
the wall, or is it somethingmuch smaller yet far more
powerful?
(00:21):
Today we're going beneath thebuzzword of recognition with Dr.
Zach Mercurio.
Zach is an author, researcher,and leadership development
facilitator who specializes inpurposeful leadership, mattering
and meaningful work.
He advises leaders worldwide onhow to build cultures that
foster wellbeing, motivation andperformance.
(00:44):
He holds a PhD in organizationalLearning, performance and
Change, and he also serves asone of Simon Sinek's optimist
instructors teaching a top ratedcourse on Creating Mattering at
Work.
Zach's latest book, the Power ofMattering, how Leaders Can
Create a Culture of SignificanceExplores, why recognition often
(01:06):
misses the mark and what Leaderscan do instead.
To help people feel truly seen,valued, and needed.
This conversation will challengeyou to rethink recognition and
see it not as a program or aperk, but as a daily practice of
creating moments where peoplegenuinely know they matter.
(01:27):
If you haven't met me yet, I'mTerry Schmidt, executive and
leadership coach at StrongLeaders Serve.
Where we believe leadership isabout courageously using your
strengths to make a way forothers to courageously use
theirs, and this is the StrongLeader Serve podcast
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025_12 (02:00):
Hi Zach.
Welcome to the Strong LeadersServe Podcast.
I'm honored to have you on todayand have this time for a
conversation.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-202 (02:07):
Yeah.
Thanks Terry.
Glad to be here.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (02:10):
Well, for anyone who isn't familiar
with you, I would love for youto just tell us a little bit
about your story and how youcame to be focused on mattering
in particular.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025 (02:21):
Hmm.
Well, so I have two jobs.
I guess one.
One is I spend about 30% of mytime teaching and researching as
a senior fellow in a placecalled the Center for Meaning
and Purpose.
We study what makes life andwork meaningful, what
contributes to human flourishingand work of which part of that
research we found is that it'sreally hard for anything to
(02:43):
matter in life and work if onedoes not feel that they matter.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-20 (02:48):
Mm-hmm.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025 (02:48):
That search for significance seems to
be the core driver of almost allhuman behavior.
And the rest of my time is I'mout with leaders in a variety
of.
Industries helping people toturn this common sense idea that
people should feel valued andthat they should know how they
add value into common practices,and being able to name hard
(03:11):
skills that we can rigorouslydevelop to do those things.
I came to this because when Iwas a PhD student, about seven
or eight years ago, I wasstruggling with a research
interest.
And I remember I used to be inacademic buildings a lot, and
one of the groups of people thatI worked with and passed often
were the custodians, thejanitors, the cleaners, and you
(03:34):
know, I'd just come to know themeven without knowing their
names.
I'd just come to know them.
We'd, we'd have thisrelationship and I remember I
was going to a professionaldevelopment.
Session at the university, andit was a free session open to
everybody on leadershipdevelopment.
And I remember passing one ofthe custodians that I'd seen
there regularly, and she said,what are you doing today?
And I said, oh, I'm going tothis session, this, this free
(03:54):
session.
She said, how did, how did youhear about that?
And she was all excited.
And she goes, I said, oh, I gotan email.
And she, she'd looked deflated
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-20 (04:03):
Mm-hmm.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025 (04:03):
said that she'd been there for over
10 years and no one's ever shownher how to get her email up and
running.
And it was, it was at thatmoment where sort of my research
interest found me.
I was like, wow, how?
These are the people that makeeverything run.
I mean, these are the peoplethat we wouldn't be able to do
anything without our facilitiesbeing clean.
(04:27):
yet it seems that are treatedthe worst.
And so I actually went andstudied a group of janitors in
my first study for a year and ahalf.
And we came to understand whatmade work meaningful.
And what was really interestingabout that study is no one
talked about that they felt thatthey and their work was
(04:48):
meaningful when they got moremoney, they got an employee of
the month award.
In fact, one of the people inthat study said, don't give a
free sandwich and a certificate.
Remember, remember my nametomorrow
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025_1 (05:02):
Ah.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_ (05:02):
you What we found is that it was
very small moments, what we'vecome to call, moments of
mattering where people felt,seen, heard, valued, and needed
by people in very, almosteveryday routine interactions
that really contributed to asense of whether someone thrived
or whether they didn't.
And since that study for thepast five years, we've studied
(05:25):
thousands of people.
In terms of what helps peoplefeel that they matter in work.
And again, it's not the bigactions, it's not the pay, it's
not the flexibility.
It's not the remote work policy.
It's not DEI programs, wellbeingprograms.
It's what they experience ininteractions every day.
And that's what we've been doingever since.
Really trying to name the skillsand practices that contribute to
(05:49):
creating and replicating thesemoments of mattering.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (05:52):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's, I think in one way as aleader, freeing in that it.
It doesn't have to be this grandprogram that you have a huge
project plan for itsimplementation or its execution.
But on the other side, I feellike it's almost like, okay,
(06:15):
well this is so common sense, soeasy.
Why isn't it happening?
Or, you know, how, how, what iskeeping me from doing that?
And so, yeah.
I, I'm curious, as you'vebrought this to leaders, and I
love that you give specific hardpractices and skills, both in
(06:35):
the book and through your work,but as you bring this to
leaders, what has been thereaction to it?
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025 (06:42):
Hmm.
Yeah.
So the the, the driving forcebehind all of this is the
psychological concept ofmattering, which is the
experience of feelingsignificant to those around us.
That comes from feeling valuedand knowing how we add value.
And it's our primal humaninstinct, and it drives all
motivation and all humanbehavior.
(07:03):
to do anything today, you had tobelieve at some level that you
matter that your life
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (07:08):
Yeah.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_1 (07:08):
of your energy.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-202 (07:09):
Right.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_ (07:10):
and when we feel that we matter to
other people.
We develop that same level ofenergy.
But what is going on now isthere's, there's two things.
One is that.
It's very hard to imagine thatsmall interactions on a daily
basis in isolation actually addup to these big outcomes.
(07:31):
are like a instant gratificationculture.
We wanna program a platform, asolution, a integrated solution,
whatever an
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (07:40):
Yeah.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_1 (07:40):
to throw at these big problems.
But if you look at employeeengagement, for example, Gallup
has been measuring employeeengagement for 20 years.
In January, 2025, it was at itslowest rate in a decade.
This is despite DEI programs,wellbeing programs.
This is despite the employeeengagement services industry,
(08:00):
meaning consultants, helping youimprove your employee
engagement,
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-20 (08:03):
Mm-hmm.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2 (08:04):
billion industry, and yet we're more
disengaged than ever.
Perks have gone up.
Pay has actually increasedalmost 45% in eight years, even
though
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025_ (08:13):
Wow.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-202 (08:14):
under inflation.
Wages, perks, programs.
the lowest it's been.
Two data points.
Just 39% of a sample of 15,000people in various industries
strongly agreed that someone atwork cared for them as a person.
If that's the lowest that's everbeen, just 30% of people in that
(08:37):
sample strongly agreed thatsomeone saw and invested in
their unique potential.
the lowest that's ever been.
WorkHuman did a study the, yearbefore and found that 30% of
people feel invisible in work orflat out ignored.
almost 65% of people, accordingto the American Psychological
Association, feel perpetuallyunderappreciated in work.
(08:59):
So those things cannot be solvedin programs.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-20 (09:04):
Mm-hmm.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025 (09:04):
have to be solved through
interactions.
And one of the things that'shappened that we've lost the
skills.
Over the last 25 years to showthe people around us that we
care for them.
And one of the chief reasons whyis that we've been able to use
technology to evade the socialsituations in which we would
normally develop these skills tosee, hear, value other people.
(09:27):
This is something that's nottalked about as much, but for
example, when you, if you sharewith me a struggle you're having
on a project and I have accessto Slack and I can just say
like, thumbs down emoji.
I'm sorry to hear that.
Let's catch up next week.
And I don't have to in thatmoment sit with you seek
understanding and show empathyand give an act of compassion
(09:52):
time.
I don't have to do that.
I miss out on the sociallearning.
That helps me develop thatskill.
And so imagine now we've
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-20 (10:01):
Mm-hmm.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_1 (10:01):
25 years of sending an average of
30 to 40 text-based messages tocolleagues.
A day,
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (10:07):
Yeah.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_1 (10:08):
to get outta these social
situations.
And you add on top of that, thatwe've been calling these skills
soft for the last half century.
And whenever we call somethingas soft or simple, we're
susceptible to an overconfidencebias and we
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-20 (10:21):
Mm-hmm.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_1 (10:21):
at it than we are.
And here we are in a time wherewe need these skills the most.
finally, people are being ableto name.
What they've been experiencingis that they don't feel seen.
They don't feel heard, theydon't feel valued in
interactions.
So here we are, and you'reright, it is hopeful and it's
good news actually, because youdon't need anybody's permission
(10:45):
to show up in your nextinteraction And choose to learn,
develop, and activate the skillsto see here and value the next
person you interact with.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (10:52):
yeah.
So true.
And I know you focusspecifically on the N model or
the NAN model.
In your book, you, you go intogreat depth in that.
Can you tell us a little bitabout that and maybe even a
story of, of how that isimplemented from a leadership
perspective?
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-202 (11:13):
yeah, sure.
I'll go back to the first storyI write about because it's a
story that.
shaped how I thought about thesemoments, and there was a
custodian, her name was Jane,and she was near homelessness,
and she needed a job to put foodon the table.
Again, there's two things aboutwork.
There's the meaning of work forpeople, which people may work
(11:36):
for a paycheck, then there's themeaning in work for people.
Which is what they wannaexperience while they're there
time after time.
We find that what peopleexperience while they're working
matters much more than why theywork,
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025_ (11:50):
Hmm.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025 (11:50):
when it comes to their fulfillment
and wellbeing.
And when leaders create anexperience that people see the
meaning in their work.
Feel that they matter.
It can be life changing.
So Jane got this job.
She was grumbling about it herfirst couple of months.
She said she was just saying,you know, why couldn't I have
done something more with mylife?
Her friends were kind of.
(12:11):
on her a little bit about beinga custodian.
She had these really destructiveinternal narratives.
And a, a supervisor noticedthese subtle cues that she was
struggling.
She never told him, but noticed.
he said, Hey, can, can we talk?
And he brought her into a breakroom and she told me that he
gave her a dictionary and heopened it to the word custodian
and he had to read thedefinition of custodian aloud.
(12:34):
the definition was a personresponsible for a building and
everyone in it.
And he said, I want you to lookaround at this dormitory that
you're cleaning at thisuniversity.
And every one of these, thesestudents is someone's precious
child.
And don't, I don't care whyyou're working, why you got
here.
This is why your job exists andwhy you exist.
(12:56):
Every one of those people needneeds you.
And she said it was the firsttime in her life someone showed
her she was worthy and went onto change her belief systems
about herself.
She went on to.
Be one of the most sought afterjanitors at the university, and
was there for almost 30 years.
I asked her, I said, did youever tell that supervisor?
She goes, no, I forgot his name.
He got reassigned three monthslater.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025_1 (13:19):
Mm.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_ (13:21):
But what happens in these moments
and how this works is that whensomebody notices us or sees and
hears us, that supervisornoticed her, noticed that she
was struggling, a subtle cue,but then he took action to show
her that she was noticed.
When people affirm us, when theyshow us how our uniqueness makes
a unique difference, and whenpeople show us how we are
needed.
(13:41):
How someone else relies on us.
We tend to experience mattering,and when we experience those
things, we get two self beliefsthat are important.
The belief that I'm worthy andthe belief that I'm capable,
which Jane's story exemplifies.
when we believe that we'reworthy and capable, we develop
the confidence we need addvalue.
And this is where I think manyleaders get it wrong.
(14:04):
A lot of leaders think peopleshould be valued once they add
value, but psychologically theopposite is true.
People need to feel valued inorder to add value.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (14:12):
Yeah.
Yeah.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_ (14:13):
And the more they add value, the
more they see how they'reneeded, the more they feel
valued.
but we've asked thousands ofpeople this question, when you
most feel that you matter to aleader, what is going on?
And those three things thatJane's supervisor did come up,
often see and hear me.
I feel noticed.
They see my unique gifts andthey show me the difference that
I make.
I feel affirmed and they show mehow I'm needed, that I'm relied
(14:34):
on.
And we've actually, actuallyuncovered and been able to name
25 unique skills,
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025_1 (14:40):
Hm.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_1 (14:41):
To do all of those things.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (14:44):
Yeah, I think I just recently saw you
post those on LinkedIn as well.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_1 (14:48):
it because someone, I got all these
messages from people that werereading about mattering and they
were like, can you, can youactually list these out?
Like you say, they're theseskills.
So I actually reread my book andthen this research paper that
we're currently drafting rightnow, and I mined out with a
colleague like the 25 UniqueSkills, and I say
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (15:08):
Yeah.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_1 (15:09):
in it.
All leaders should be able to,because I do believe that it's
the minimum qualification ofleadership to make sure people
feel valued.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (15:17):
yeah.
Which we can definitely get intothat in, in a little bit.
Because I, I know as we talkedbefore, we hit record, maybe not
everyone would agree with youthat that is the minimum
qualification of a leader orwhat should define a leader's
success.
But I do want to kind of take aturn here because I also saw you
post about ai.
(15:38):
And you said, you were talking,you said, our moral
responsibility to one anothercannot be replaced.
Which is why the ability tobuild and sustain trust will be
more critical than ever.
That's another reason whyleaders and organizations must
double down on the essentialskills of being human.
So I'd love to hear what wasbehind that.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_ (16:01):
No, that's
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (16:02):
wrote that unless AI wrote it.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-20 (16:07):
Should only be afraid of AI taking your
job if you don't have the humanskills to show people they
matter.
Because AI going to take overyour technical and operational
and synthesizing skills.
It's gonna do it faster.
it's gonna do it more accuratelyjust because it has more
information than our brains cancompute in real time.
(16:28):
What it can never do, it can doyour tasks.
What it can never do is takemoral responsibility for them.
So while an AI, for example,could guide a customer through a
transaction.
has to develop the trust to takeresponsibility for that
transaction with that customer,for example.
And where does trust come from?
(16:49):
There are four predictors oftrust.
Researchers find.
One is care.
You cannot develop trust if youdo not care for somebody.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025_1 (17:00):
Hm.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_11 (17:00):
I was working with the top 200
leaders in the US Army and therewas a.
A special operations officerwho's responsible for part of
the officer training for specialops officers.
Now, these are like the highestperforming units on the planet.
So if there's a leader out therewho disagrees that mattering
doesn't result in performancethis is one of the top
(17:21):
performing units behind enemylines in lethal situations.
Have to act fast, act
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-202 (17:26):
Right.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025 (17:26):
they have to perform, or their lives
are at risk and others' livesare at risk.
And he said to me, no.
He said, you know, Zach, a lotof people say that the key
ingredient or think that a keyingredient of a lethal, high
performing unit behind enemylines is toughness.
He said, but it's not it's love.
No one is going to sacrifice forme if I don't know their kids'
names.
(17:47):
No one is gonna go above andbeyond and support someone else
who's in need if I don't supportthem in need in the months prior
to that engagement.
No one is going to go above andbeyond for me if I haven't gone
above and beyond for them daythat we're training together and
he hit on something reallyimportant, that you cannot
(18:09):
demon, you cannot have trustwithout care.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025_ (18:12):
Hmm.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_ (18:13):
And the second is consistency.
You know, you show upconsistently.
The third is competence.
You're good at your job.
And the third, the fourth issafety.
You also can't trust someonethat you feel psychologically
unsafe around Researchers findthat trust is impossible without
those bookends.
It doesn't matter how
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025_ (18:29):
Hmm.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_ (18:29):
you are at your job, it doesn't
matter your quarterly earningsreports.
It doesn't matter your how greatyour product launches are.
If you don't demonstrate carefor somebody and if they feel
unsafe with you, they will nottrust you.
The same is true with a
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-20 (18:43):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_1 (19:01):
we don't double down on the human
skills to care and createpsychological safety the people
that we interact with, and welose those skills to technology,
we will be obsolete.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (19:14):
Yeah.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_ (19:14):
am, I'm very thankful because that's
not gonna happen.
and the other thing that I'mthankful about is I love that AI
is gonna take over all of thethings that are wasting leaders'
time.
So they're not focused on theirpeople.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (19:26):
Yeah.
And, and what a great example ofthose military leaders.
'cause like you said, if there'sa place where high performance
is.
Critically important that, thatwould be it with, with lives on
the line.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_11 (19:41):
I went to a conference and also
the, if you watch this Netflix,this Netflix documentary on the
Blue Angels, Angels are thisnavy squadron that flies at an
ridiculously close to each otherat incredibly high speeds in
these jets.
And I met the commander of itcommander Armita.
And we were talking about thisand he had sat in on this
(20:02):
session on mattering, and hesaid, this is what it's all
about.
This is why we have to livetogether.
For six months, it's not.
So we're spending, the majorityof our time is not spent flying
together.
The majority of our time isspent learning about who each
other is, what's important toeverybody, what their
preferences are, what theirstyles are learning how what
(20:24):
their values are, what intereststhem.
We spend more time socializing.
Then we do training, and one ofthe reasons why is because
that's what develops care andthat trust, because I am much
more likely to maneuver in a waythat is careful and calibrated
and precise.
(20:45):
If I know that the person nextto me wants to get back to their
family,
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-202 (20:50):
Right.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025 (20:51):
that family is.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (20:53):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And it, it, it drivesperformance that, that
mattering, you know, knowingthat not only are you valued and
you add value, but you valuethat person next to you because
you know the value that they addas well.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_ (21:11):
And they have a saying.
They have a saying called Failtogether.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025_ (21:15):
Hmm.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_ (21:16):
You know that if
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (21:17):
Yeah.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-20 (21:17):
fails, the whole group takes that
failure on.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-202 (21:21):
Right?
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025 (21:21):
they fail together.
And I think that's where, youknow, that's where true
confidence comes from.
The confidence needed toperform.
It doesn't come from tellingsomeone to develop confidence or
go perform.
True confidence comes when weknow that someone has our back.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-20 (21:35):
Mm-hmm.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_1 (21:36):
We can
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (21:37):
Yeah.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-202 (21:37):
fail, experiment, take risks, and we
know someone else has our back.
And that's the foundation thatmattering creates when you show
someone that they matter.
I.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025_ (21:46):
Hmm.
There's so many, so manydifferent directions we could
take this conversation, but I, Ijust wanna, you know, as I wanna
double down a little bit on theAI piece because I was thinking
about it and I was like, well,you know, couldn't you in a chat
with an ai, you know.
Feel that the AI noticed you andcould it affirm you and could
(22:07):
you feel needed because of a, aconversation with it.
So I'm curious about yourthoughts on that and how, you
know, what differentiates thehuman application?
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_ (22:18):
The AI doesn't care if you come
back.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025_ (22:21):
Hmm.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2 (22:22):
There's no, there's no more powerful
experience I think in life thanknowing that your presence and
absence means something toanother person.
You're just a prompt to the ai,you're an input.
It
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (22:33):
Yeah.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_ (22:33):
not a human, you're not a, you're
not a you're not a human being'cause it doesn't know what it's
like to be a human being.
No matter how comforting your AImay be to you it doesn't care if
you come back
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (22:44):
Yeah.
So in a sense it's just emptywords.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-202 (22:47):
Yeah, people care.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (22:49):
Yeah.
Which makes me think, I mean, ifyou are a leader who doesn't.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_1 (22:54):
of care.
I would say it's
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (22:55):
Yeah.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-202 (22:56):
care.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-202 (22:57):
Right, right.
Yeah.
And, and so that, that kind ofreiterates the point too, that
if you are a leader and you aretrying to implement, you know,
noticing, affirming and needingthere has to be that care behind
it.
It can't just be you goingthrough the motions.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-20 (23:13):
Right.
And you know what's really greatabout AI though?
If you want to, like, forexample, say you have an
employee who's struggling, likeI would love to see leaders use
AI to say, I have an employeewho's struggling with this,
this, what's the, what are somethe best ways to approach this
conversation?
that, that is a reallyinteresting way of using AI
synthesizing.
and I would say like, what doesthe research say is the best way
(23:33):
to
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-20 (23:34):
Mm-hmm.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_ (23:35):
And that'll, that's, that's really
helpful because what you'redoing is you're working on the
craft of leadership.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (23:40):
Yeah.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_ (23:41):
and instead of just going and
reading the talking points thatyou get from chat two BT go, and
now you're armed with someknowledge, like you're learning
about what it means to take careof people.
You know, mentioned earlier thatsome leaders would disagree
that, you know, that's theminimum qualification for
leadership.
I don't think they're talkingabout leadership.
(24:01):
I
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025_ (24:01):
Hmm.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_11 (24:02):
a leadership is the occupation of
being responsible for the peopledoing the job.
I mean, your job is to care forthe people
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (24:12):
Well, you know, my initial thoughts on
this book part of it, you know,I thought maybe in our
individualistic culture, likesome people might take it as,
yes, I need to know that Imatter, and this is why my
leader should do this.
X, Y, and Z.
But you bring up many pointsabout the importance of
community when it comes tomattering.
(24:33):
You even talk about, you know,how the higher levels of
Maslow's pyramid are alldependent on others.
So I'd love to hear yourthoughts on that.
You know, why can't we selfaffirm ourselves into a sense of
mattering?
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_ (24:49):
Any belief that you have requires
your environment to confirm thatbelief, for you to have that
belief.
So, like I'm sitting on a chairright now, only reason why I
come into my office and I sitdown without really thinking
about it is because I believethe chair will hold me.
And it's for sitting on, it'snot gonna break now.
Now, what's the only reason why?
(25:09):
I know and believe that thechair won't break?
The only reason why is becauseI've sat in it time and time
again and it hasn't broken.
The same is true with anybelief.
why you can't just sit in youroffice and say, I believe in
myself and I am enough, and, anddevelop confidence, right?
You have to go out and see theevidence of your significance.
(25:31):
To believe in your significance.
In psychology, it's calledreflected appraisals.
It's how we come to experienceourself.
You wouldn't even have thelanguage say that you don't need
others to show you how youmatter if you didn't have others
to show you how to learnlanguage.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025_ (25:53):
Good point.
Good point.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_ (25:54):
You wouldn't actually be here, like
the people who say I am enough.
Like, I love the sentiment aboutthat, but scientifically it's
wrong because you wouldn't behere if at some point you hadn't
mattered enough to someone
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-20 (26:07):
Mm-hmm.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-20 (26:08):
alive.
So none of us are truly enough.
We are social beings, we areinterdependent beings.
We are interdependent.
Psychologically, sociologically,biologically, we become who we
are with others.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-20 (26:22):
Mm-hmm.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_ (26:22):
And so you can't, so you can come to
believe that you matter on yourown, but it takes others to show
us how we matter.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025_1 (26:31):
Ah, interesting distinction.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_ (26:33):
and here's the, here's the dynamic
is that you are that other forsomeone else.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-20 (26:39):
Mm-hmm.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_ (26:40):
And it happens in interactions.
So if you spend all of your timetrying to believe that you
matter and expecting everybodyto show you that you matter,
which a lot of our self-helpworld tells you to do, you know,
focus on yourself.
No one's coming to save you.
Let them, you know, whatever itis.
If you do that and if everybodydoes that.
We won't have anybody to come.
(27:02):
We won't have anybody toreaffirm our significance.
It's
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (27:05):
Yeah.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025 (27:05):
why, if you look at self-help books
published and loneliness andmental health issues, and I put
them on a line graph, you wouldshow them exploding upward
together because we have beenteaching people to actualize
themselves, but there's nocommittee in your brain that's
gonna tell you, you'reactualized enough now go help
others.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (27:26):
Yeah.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_1 (27:26):
do both at the same time.
Develop the belief that wematter, so we can act like we
matter, contribute to creatingmattering for other people.
When we contribute to creatingmattering for other people, we
create relationships thatdevelop an upward spiral and
they're more likely to do it for
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-20 (27:40):
Mm-hmm.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_ (27:41):
see the evidence of our
significance, and that's how wedevelop a stable belief.
That's where stable self-esteemcomes from.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (27:48):
Yeah.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025 (27:48):
that we matter, and we're in
environments that show us how wematter, a well individual in an
unwell relationship will becomean unwell individual.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (27:57):
Yeah, I, I, I love what you just said,
and, you know, I was thinking,I, I often talk about, you know,
people say Put your own oxygenmask on first so that you can
help others, which is important,but I always say, you know.
We, our leadership model isground grow give, so it always,
and I say it's an upward spiraland you're going through those,
(28:19):
you know, multiple times.
But the point is that give phaseis there.
It's not
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-202 (28:26):
Yeah.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025_1 (28:26):
own oxygen mask on and that's the
end of the sentence.
It's so that you can supportothers.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025 (28:34):
mask example is really interesting
because you're literally puttingon the oxygen mask so you don't
die,
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (28:40):
True.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_ (28:42):
So, so that you're alive so you can
help someone else.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (28:46):
Yeah.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025 (28:46):
most of us are alive, so we can help
someone else.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-20 (28:50):
Mm-hmm.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_1 (28:51):
So the oxygen thing is funny and it
takes about a second to slap themock oxygen mask on and then you
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (28:56):
True.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_ (28:57):
you better get to helping the person
next to you.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (29:00):
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Excellent point.
You know, I, I'm, I'm thinkingabout your, your conversation
about the environments and, youknow, an unwell, a, a well
person in an unwell relationshipeventually becomes unwell.
And I think about the story youbrought up about Viktor Frankl,
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025 (29:17):
Yes.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025_ (29:18):
and, you know, during his time in the
concentration camp, I'm curiousabout.
How his sense of matteringcontinued in that extreme
environment.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025 (29:30):
Wow.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23 (29:30):
wondering, you know, there are a lot of
leaders and and employees outthere who may be in an
environment that isn't showingthem that they matter and you,
they may feel like because ofthat they can't show people, you
know, act in a way that helpsothers to matter.
So I'm curious your thoughts onthat.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-202 (29:52):
Yeah, I first, I have to say that I am
in no way drawing an analogybetween what Franco went through
and
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (30:01):
Yeah, right.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_1 (30:02):
in an
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025_12 (30:03):
Of course.
Of course.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_ (30:05):
But Frankel himself actually went
into vocational guidance usingwhat he learned.
He actually went into talkingabout work and how we find
meaning in work, and that wasone of his core ways of using
his lessons.
So I can sort of channel that.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-20 (30:20):
Mm-hmm.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_ (30:21):
but there's a couple of things that
are interesting is that, of all,no, you don't need your
organization's permission orapproval.
For how you show up in your nextinteraction.
You may not have positionalpower, but you have
interactional power.
For example, every single thingwas stripped Viktor Frankl,
(30:44):
every shred of external dignityby those in power.
But how did he reclaim hispower?
If you read that book, hereclaimed his power by helping
others.
He found people to help.
He brought extra pieces ofbread.
He built community.
Also, when he talks about youknow, he who has a why to live
can bear almost.
(31:04):
Anyhow, he talks about how hewould constantly think about how
his wife needed him to get backto her as he was.
out into the fields to do thatwork.
He felt needed and he showedothers that they mattered.
By serving them, he regularlytook the opportunity to add
value.
(31:25):
Lawrence Gonzalez is an authorand he wrote this book called
Deep Survival, and he actuallystudied people in survival
situations and he was trying tounderstand the people that
survived.
Like this is like being lost inthe woods or like
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-20 (31:36):
Mm-hmm.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23- (31:37):
stranded on a mountaintop.
He tried to study what, whatcontributed to the people that
survived and the people thatdidn't.
And what he found was actually,it had nothing to do with
physical ability.
It had to do with people thoughtabout who they needed to get
home to.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025_ (31:53):
Hmm, hmm.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-20 (31:55):
People thought, oh, I have some
unfinished business.
I, I can't, this person can't goon without me.
know, they felt that theymattered.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-20 (32:04):
Mm-hmm.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_ (32:04):
And so, you know, one of the things
that we found that people do todevelop a mindset that helps
them see how they matter toothers so that they can act like
they matter to others, is theydevelop what I call a So that
mindset.
One of the custodians in ourstudy, I asked her, you know,
what's the most meaningful partof your job?
She said it was cleaning thebathrooms in the university
dormitories on the, after theweekends.
(32:25):
again, I was a PhD student, so Iwas like shocked.
I was, what, what?
That sounds gross.
And she goes, yeah, it's the.
of my job I hate the most, butevery time I go into that
bathroom, I say to myself, I'mcleaning this bathroom so that
these kids don't get sick.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-20 (32:40):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-20 (32:42):
What's purposeful isn't always
pleasurable.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-20 (32:45):
Mm-hmm.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_1 (32:46):
of two kids.
up all night with a kid with astomach bug is not pleasurable.
It is pur.
It is purposeful.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (32:54):
Yeah.
zach-mercurio_1_07- (32:55):
purposeful, right?
And I think that one of thethings that we've tried to find,
we expect pleasure from work allthe time.
We expect other to give uspleasure.
We expect everything to be easy.
But oftentimes what's purposefulis not always pleasurable.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-20 (33:09):
Mm-hmm.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_1 (33:09):
So making the choice of showing
remembering, you're so that, ofshowing up in your next
interaction and showing someonehow they matter.
Making the choice to go first.
If your leader's not doing thisfor you, are you doing it for
them?
True leaders.
I'm not talking about positionalleaders.
I think true leaders go first,Even when it's not being done to
(33:30):
them.
And
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (33:31):
Yeah.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025 (33:32):
hard is that to say?
How hard is that to even thinkabout?
There's people listening thatare like, what are you talking
about?
I'm in this toxic workplace.
I'm not gonna self-sacrifice
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-202 (33:40):
Right?
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-20 (33:42):
That's also the burden and
responsibility of leadership.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (33:45):
Yeah, that going first.
And what do you do then if youare going first and you don't
feel like anything's changing?
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_1 (33:55):
At least you know that you did your
best,
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025_ (33:58):
Hmm.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-20 (33:58):
right?
At least you have that.
least you're not being a passiverecipient of.
Culture and you're being anactive constructor of it.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025_ (34:07):
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_1 (34:07):
in Colorado.
It gets it's really dry here.
Like it's not conducive tohaving gardens, but we all want
a garden.
It's just something nice abouthaving a garden.
But what I've learned is likewhile I'm in like this semi arid
environment, I have to createmicroclimates Tomatoes to grow
well, like I have to like createa microclimate for it.
(34:28):
So it thinks it's in a differentclimate.
I think great leaders,especially in toxic
organizations, are really goodat creating microclimates,
microclimates where people feelthat they matter.
And where does that come from?
It comes from your dailyinteractions.
No one can take your interactionpower away from you.
You Need anybody's permission.
There's no red tape to caring.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-202 (34:48):
right.
Yeah.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025 (34:49):
And, and you know what I find is when
leaders do choose to do this,they actually feel better.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-20 (34:53):
Mm-hmm.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2 (34:54):
Because they may be in a toxic
environment, they can go homeknowing that the people they
serve aren't going home to thepeople that love them,
complaining about them
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (35:03):
Yeah.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_ (35:04):
and
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025_ (35:04):
Very true.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2 (35:05):
they've made their life.
They can go home and say, youknow, I'm in this organization.
My job's really tough, but myleader, she, he, she has my
back.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-20 (35:13):
Mm-hmm.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_ (35:14):
And that's what keeps me going.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (35:16):
Yeah.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_ (35:16):
And then they tell that to somebody
and they tell that to theirchild and their child and they
remember, and you, you cascade aleadership lesson by doing that.
That's your legacy.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-202 (35:25):
Right, right.
Yeah.
Creating that microclimate, soin that microclimate.
How do you apply theseprinciples with an employee
who's not performing?
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_ (35:37):
Mm.
One of the misconceptions peopledo ask me, Zach, how do I, how
do I show people they matterwhen I need them to improve
their performance?
Which is a real thing.
Nobody, we wouldn't have jobs ororganizations if we didn't meet
the numbers, whatever thenumbers
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-20 (35:49):
Mm-hmm.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-20 (35:50):
right?
But the, the what's missed isthat you show people they
matter.
So that.
They perform well.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-20 (35:57):
Mm-hmm.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_ (35:57):
You show people that they matter so
that you can hold themaccountable.
What typically happens ispeople, especially leaders, I
find they critique before theyactually do the work to care.
There's a study in HarvardBusiness Review that study
thousands of incidents,incidences of employee
performance, improving feedback,and they found that about 40% of
(36:20):
those instances actuallydecreased performance.
And the same thing with negativecritique on its own decreased
performance.
reason why is not because theemployees are weak and they
can't handle it.
The reason why is thatresearchers found the employees
didn't feel understood or heardor seen by the person giving the
feedback.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-20 (36:39):
Mm-hmm.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_ (36:39):
the last time something someone said
mattered to you when you didn'tfeel that you mattered to them.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (36:46):
Yeah.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_1 (36:46):
So a lot of leaders don't
understand that the performanceimproving feedback conversation,
the quality of that conversationactually happens months, years,
days before the actualconversation where you're
building that trust Sense ofcare, and through creating a
sense of safety.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (37:06):
Yeah.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2 (37:07):
there's a, there's a psychologist named
David Jager and he finds thatpeople are much more likely,
almost four times more likely toimprove their performance.
If you do these three things,whenever you give critique, if
these three things are present,first is whenever you're gonna
critique someone's performanceor give this type of
performance, improving feedback,express your belief in the
person.
I believe in you, and I believein the impact you can make here.
(37:31):
Second is name the uniquestrengths and gifts they already
have.
I really rely on you.
You're always consistent, you'realways showing up, you're always
asking questions, you're alwaysresourceful.
I need you to u.
You can use those to improve inthis area.
And then the third is expressyour support, specific support.
I'm here to help.
And every Tuesday morning, Ijust wanna check in with you on
(37:53):
if there's any log jams that Ican remove to help you perform
better.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (37:57):
Yeah.
Yeah.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_ (37:58):
And if those three things are
present, people are much morelikely to improve their
performance.
Why?
Because
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-20 (38:05):
Mm-hmm.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_1 (38:23):
do the work to make sure people
feel cared for.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (38:26):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Whew.
That was excellent answer withjust, you know, very practical
steps that people can take and,and misconceptions that are
behind that, that question initself.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-202 (38:39):
just, I see so many and I, and you
know what, I also, I'm gonna addthis I think this is an
important discussion.
A lot of leaders simply give upon people too fast.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-20 (38:48):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_1 (38:51):
of people that come up to me in a
workshop and they'll say, oh,you know, it's just this person
will never change.
They've been underperforming.
No matter what I do, I try allthis stuff and nothing happens.
And I say, well, how long has itbeen?
They're like, seven months.
Seven Months of a human life.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-202 (39:07):
Right.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23- (39:07):
develop, to change in behavior, And so
my, my, my response is always,well, you offloading that
person?
Have you decided that person'snot a fit?
Are you gonna, going to see ifthey wanna be reassigned or are
you going to, you know, offboardthem, fire them?
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (39:26):
Yeah.
Yeah.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_ (39:28):
And if they say no, I say, okay,
well, they're under your care,so you have to care.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-20 (39:32):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025 (39:33):
give up.
If they're under your care,they're under your care.
You cannot give up.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-20 (39:38):
Mm-hmm.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_ (39:38):
And that's the responsibility of
leadership.
And,
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (39:41):
Yeah.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-202 (39:42):
know, over time that person's
performance is yourresponsibility.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (39:46):
Yeah.
Yeah.
zach-mercurio_1_07- (39:47):
perpetually underperforming.
A leader's occupation is to takecare of the people doing the
job, and one of your people isperpetually underperforming.
If you've kept them under yourcare, then that's a job
performance issue of the leaderas
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (40:04):
Yeah.
You gotta care before theperform.
You don't care because peopleperform.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-202 (40:10):
Yeah.
Yeah, that's good.
That's
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (40:12):
yeah.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-20 (40:13):
that's true.
And it's true.
It's psychologically true aswell.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (40:16):
Yeah.
So last question, what aboutthose like I referenced earlier
who are like, you know, this.
This doesn't matter because itshouldn't work.
Just be more like a sports team.
I think to use your languagebefore we hit record and there
kind of, of the, you know,strong man mindset of, you know,
only the fittest should survive.
(40:39):
I.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-202 (40:39):
Yeah.
there's this, there's this wholenotion that, know, I agree with
it that work is not a fam workis not family, right?
We shouldn't conflate the two.
But I also that everybody atwork part of a family, right?
We shouldn't be friends withpeople at work.
(40:59):
Well, everybody at work issomeone's friend.
And oftentimes we use this wholenotion of it's just work as an
excuse to make it easier todehumanize people.
It's easier to make a lot ofmoney quicker and dehumanize
people you treat them like areplaceable resource.
But in the long term, whenpeople feel replaceable, they
(41:20):
usually act that way and theyleave and they don't show up and
they don't commit.
And then every eight years youhave a labor crisis when the
market loosens up and it's morefavorable to employers, they
leave.
Right.
And so, the other idea isthinking about organization as
an elite sports team.
And I think it's a, it's areally bad example because the
percentage of people that areelite athletes is like less than
(41:44):
like 1% of the world'spopulation.
Okay.
We're talking about people whoare gifting you their time and
their skills.
That's why it's calledcompensation, for example.
You're compensating someone fortheir lost time and skills.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-20 (41:59):
Mm-hmm.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-20 (42:00):
You're making up for the time you're
taking from somebody, the giftsthey're giving you.
So most people aren't eliteathletes.
So organizations have to be aplace where people can develop
where they are developingpeople's sense of self-worth
ability.
They're training grounds forthese essential skills people
need to have.
(42:20):
if you're going to expect peopleto perform.
a high level, but you're notcreating an environment that
regenerates their energy toperform through making sure they
feel that they matter.
You are really creating a recipefor despair.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (42:35):
Yeah.
Yeah.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2 (42:36):
There's
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-202 (42:36):
Which.
zach-mercurio_1_07- (42:37):
frustrating being asked to perform at a high
level than being in anenvironment extracts the energy
you need to perform.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (42:46):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So true.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_ (42:48):
And also I'm gonna add this.
If you look at the best sportsteams, there's a, one of the
commonalities is this idea of,of just do your job, right?
But it's not, it's not as likehard as it seems.
Do your job means you are anintegral part of the whole and
what you do affects someoneelse.
So
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (43:07):
Okay.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025 (43:07):
when you look at high performing
sports teams, they do a greatjob of making sure people feel
that they matter first.
If you wanna use
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-20 (43:13):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, that.
Yeah, you can't really denythat.
You know, it might not beevident, but when you look at it
a little bit longer, it's, it'sright there.
Well thank you so much for thisconversation.
There are so many pieces that Iwanna just replay for myself and
dig more deeply into.
But I really appreciate yourtime today.
People want to learn more aboutyou and the work that you do.
(43:35):
Where's the best place for themto go?
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-202 (43:37):
Yeah, you can go to zach mercurio.com.
There's also a section there onmattering, and there's some free
downloads, like aself-assessment.
There's also, we didn't get intolike some of the specific
skills, but there's sometemplates on like how to give
better gratitude to people,
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-20 (43:51):
Mm-hmm.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-20 (43:52):
better feedback.
How to show people that you relyon them.
and it's, again, it's simple,small actions that you can take
in your next interaction.
So check that out.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (44:01):
Yeah.
Yeah, definitely.
We'll make sure that gets linkedin the show notes, and of course
we just.
Got right on the surface ofwhat's in the book.
So I highly encourage everyoneto, to go out and at a minimum,
get the book and, and listen toit.
It's so important for all of us.
We spend so much time of ourlives at work and it flows into
(44:23):
all other areas of our lives.
So highly recommend everyonegetting out there and getting
this book.
So thank you again, Zach.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-202 (44:30):
Thank you, Terry.
Thanks for having me on.
As we wrap up, I keep comingback to Zach's reminder that
even in tough environments,leaders have the power to create
micro climates, small pocketswhere people feel seen, valued,
and needed.
Those microclimates don't juststay contained.
(44:51):
They ripple outward into teams,families, and communities.
So here's my challenge to you.
In your very next interaction,choose to show someone that they
matter.
Notice them affirm them.
Remind them that they areneeded.
It may feel small, but as Zachreminded us, those small moments
(45:14):
add up to cultures ofsignificance because leadership
isn't about waiting for theperfect program or policy.
It's about the everyday choiceswe make to help people thrive.
I.
You've probably heard that as aleader, it's very important to
recognize your team if you wantthem to perform, but what does
it really mean to recognizesomeone at work?
Is it the award, the bonus, theemployee of the month plaque on
the wall, or is it somethingmuch smaller yet far more
powerful?
(00:21):
Today we're going beneath thebuzzword of recognition with Dr.
Zach Mercurio.
Zach is an author, researcher,and leadership development
facilitator who specializes inpurposeful leadership, mattering
and meaningful work.
He advises leaders worldwide onhow to build cultures that
foster wellbeing, motivation andperformance.
(00:44):
He holds a PhD in organizationalLearning, performance and
Change, and he also serves asone of Simon Sinek's optimist
instructors teaching a top ratedcourse on Creating Mattering at
Work.
Zach's latest book, the Power ofMattering, how Leaders Can
Create a Culture of SignificanceExplores, why recognition often
(01:06):
misses the mark and what Leaderscan do instead.
To help people feel truly seen,valued, and needed.
This conversation will challengeyou to rethink recognition and
see it not as a program or aperk, but as a daily practice of
creating moments where peoplegenuinely know they matter.
(01:27):
If you haven't met me yet, I'mTerry Schmidt, executive and
leadership coach at StrongLeaders Serve.
Where we believe leadership isabout courageously using your
strengths to make a way forothers to courageously use
theirs, and this is the StrongLeader Serve podcast
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025_12 (02:00):
Hi Zach.
Welcome to the Strong LeadersServe Podcast.
I'm honored to have you on todayand have this time for a
conversation.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-202 (02:07):
Yeah.
Thanks Terry.
Glad to be here.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (02:10):
Well, for anyone who isn't familiar
with you, I would love for youto just tell us a little bit
about your story and how youcame to be focused on mattering
in particular.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025 (02:21):
Hmm.
Well, so I have two jobs.
I guess one.
One is I spend about 30% of mytime teaching and researching as
a senior fellow in a placecalled the Center for Meaning
and Purpose.
We study what makes life andwork meaningful, what
contributes to human flourishingand work of which part of that
research we found is that it'sreally hard for anything to
(02:43):
matter in life and work if onedoes not feel that they matter.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-20 (02:48):
Mm-hmm.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025 (02:48):
That search for significance seems to
be the core driver of almost allhuman behavior.
And the rest of my time is I'mout with leaders in a variety
of.
Industries helping people toturn this common sense idea that
people should feel valued andthat they should know how they
add value into common practices,and being able to name hard
(03:11):
skills that we can rigorouslydevelop to do those things.
I came to this because when Iwas a PhD student, about seven
or eight years ago, I wasstruggling with a research
interest.
And I remember I used to be inacademic buildings a lot, and
one of the groups of people thatI worked with and passed often
were the custodians, thejanitors, the cleaners, and you
(03:34):
know, I'd just come to know themeven without knowing their
names.
I'd just come to know them.
We'd, we'd have thisrelationship and I remember I
was going to a professionaldevelopment.
Session at the university, andit was a free session open to
everybody on leadershipdevelopment.
And I remember passing one ofthe custodians that I'd seen
there regularly, and she said,what are you doing today?
And I said, oh, I'm going tothis session, this, this free
(03:54):
session.
She said, how did, how did youhear about that?
And she was all excited.
And she goes, I said, oh, I gotan email.
And she, she'd looked deflated
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-20 (04:03):
Mm-hmm.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025 (04:03):
said that she'd been there for over
10 years and no one's ever shownher how to get her email up and
running.
And it was, it was at thatmoment where sort of my research
interest found me.
I was like, wow, how?
These are the people that makeeverything run.
I mean, these are the peoplethat we wouldn't be able to do
anything without our facilitiesbeing clean.
(04:27):
yet it seems that are treatedthe worst.
And so I actually went andstudied a group of janitors in
my first study for a year and ahalf.
And we came to understand whatmade work meaningful.
And what was really interestingabout that study is no one
talked about that they felt thatthey and their work was
(04:48):
meaningful when they got moremoney, they got an employee of
the month award.
In fact, one of the people inthat study said, don't give a
free sandwich and a certificate.
Remember, remember my nametomorrow
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025_1 (05:02):
Ah.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_ (05:02):
you What we found is that it was
very small moments, what we'vecome to call, moments of
mattering where people felt,seen, heard, valued, and needed
by people in very, almosteveryday routine interactions
that really contributed to asense of whether someone thrived
or whether they didn't.
And since that study for thepast five years, we've studied
(05:25):
thousands of people.
In terms of what helps peoplefeel that they matter in work.
And again, it's not the bigactions, it's not the pay, it's
not the flexibility.
It's not the remote work policy.
It's not DEI programs, wellbeingprograms.
It's what they experience ininteractions every day.
And that's what we've been doingever since.
Really trying to name the skillsand practices that contribute to
(05:49):
creating and replicating thesemoments of mattering.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (05:52):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's, I think in one way as aleader, freeing in that it.
It doesn't have to be this grandprogram that you have a huge
project plan for itsimplementation or its execution.
But on the other side, I feellike it's almost like, okay,
(06:15):
well this is so common sense, soeasy.
Why isn't it happening?
Or, you know, how, how, what iskeeping me from doing that?
And so, yeah.
I, I'm curious, as you'vebrought this to leaders, and I
love that you give specific hardpractices and skills, both in
(06:35):
the book and through your work,but as you bring this to
leaders, what has been thereaction to it?
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025 (06:42):
Hmm.
Yeah.
So the the, the driving forcebehind all of this is the
psychological concept ofmattering, which is the
experience of feelingsignificant to those around us.
That comes from feeling valuedand knowing how we add value.
And it's our primal humaninstinct, and it drives all
motivation and all humanbehavior.
(07:03):
to do anything today, you had tobelieve at some level that you
matter that your life
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (07:08):
Yeah.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_1 (07:08):
of your energy.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-202 (07:09):
Right.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_ (07:10):
and when we feel that we matter to
other people.
We develop that same level ofenergy.
But what is going on now isthere's, there's two things.
One is that.
It's very hard to imagine thatsmall interactions on a daily
basis in isolation actually addup to these big outcomes.
(07:31):
are like a instant gratificationculture.
We wanna program a platform, asolution, a integrated solution,
whatever an
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (07:40):
Yeah.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_1 (07:40):
to throw at these big problems.
But if you look at employeeengagement, for example, Gallup
has been measuring employeeengagement for 20 years.
In January, 2025, it was at itslowest rate in a decade.
This is despite DEI programs,wellbeing programs.
This is despite the employeeengagement services industry,
(08:00):
meaning consultants, helping youimprove your employee
engagement,
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-20 (08:03):
Mm-hmm.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2 (08:04):
billion industry, and yet we're more
disengaged than ever.
Perks have gone up.
Pay has actually increasedalmost 45% in eight years, even
though
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025_ (08:13):
Wow.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-202 (08:14):
under inflation.
Wages, perks, programs.
the lowest it's been.
Two data points.
Just 39% of a sample of 15,000people in various industries
strongly agreed that someone atwork cared for them as a person.
If that's the lowest that's everbeen, just 30% of people in that
(08:37):
sample strongly agreed thatsomeone saw and invested in
their unique potential.
the lowest that's ever been.
WorkHuman did a study the, yearbefore and found that 30% of
people feel invisible in work orflat out ignored.
almost 65% of people, accordingto the American Psychological
Association, feel perpetuallyunderappreciated in work.
(08:59):
So those things cannot be solvedin programs.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-20 (09:04):
Mm-hmm.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025 (09:04):
have to be solved through
interactions.
And one of the things that'shappened that we've lost the
skills.
Over the last 25 years to showthe people around us that we
care for them.
And one of the chief reasons whyis that we've been able to use
technology to evade the socialsituations in which we would
normally develop these skills tosee, hear, value other people.
(09:27):
This is something that's nottalked about as much, but for
example, when you, if you sharewith me a struggle you're having
on a project and I have accessto Slack and I can just say
like, thumbs down emoji.
I'm sorry to hear that.
Let's catch up next week.
And I don't have to in thatmoment sit with you seek
understanding and show empathyand give an act of compassion
(09:52):
time.
I don't have to do that.
I miss out on the sociallearning.
That helps me develop thatskill.
And so imagine now we've
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-20 (10:01):
Mm-hmm.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_1 (10:01):
25 years of sending an average of
30 to 40 text-based messages tocolleagues.
A day,
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (10:07):
Yeah.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_1 (10:08):
to get outta these social
situations.
And you add on top of that, thatwe've been calling these skills
soft for the last half century.
And whenever we call somethingas soft or simple, we're
susceptible to an overconfidencebias and we
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-20 (10:21):
Mm-hmm.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_1 (10:21):
at it than we are.
And here we are in a time wherewe need these skills the most.
finally, people are being ableto name.
What they've been experiencingis that they don't feel seen.
They don't feel heard, theydon't feel valued in
interactions.
So here we are, and you'reright, it is hopeful and it's
good news actually, because youdon't need anybody's permission
(10:45):
to show up in your nextinteraction And choose to learn,
develop, and activate the skillsto see here and value the next
person you interact with.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (10:52):
yeah.
So true.
And I know you focusspecifically on the N model or
the NAN model.
In your book, you, you go intogreat depth in that.
Can you tell us a little bitabout that and maybe even a
story of, of how that isimplemented from a leadership
perspective?
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-202 (11:13):
yeah, sure.
I'll go back to the first storyI write about because it's a
story that.
shaped how I thought about thesemoments, and there was a
custodian, her name was Jane,and she was near homelessness,
and she needed a job to put foodon the table.
Again, there's two things aboutwork.
There's the meaning of work forpeople, which people may work
(11:36):
for a paycheck, then there's themeaning in work for people.
Which is what they wannaexperience while they're there
time after time.
We find that what peopleexperience while they're working
matters much more than why theywork,
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025_ (11:50):
Hmm.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025 (11:50):
when it comes to their fulfillment
and wellbeing.
And when leaders create anexperience that people see the
meaning in their work.
Feel that they matter.
It can be life changing.
So Jane got this job.
She was grumbling about it herfirst couple of months.
She said she was just saying,you know, why couldn't I have
done something more with mylife?
Her friends were kind of.
(12:11):
on her a little bit about beinga custodian.
She had these really destructiveinternal narratives.
And a, a supervisor noticedthese subtle cues that she was
struggling.
She never told him, but noticed.
he said, Hey, can, can we talk?
And he brought her into a breakroom and she told me that he
gave her a dictionary and heopened it to the word custodian
and he had to read thedefinition of custodian aloud.
(12:34):
the definition was a personresponsible for a building and
everyone in it.
And he said, I want you to lookaround at this dormitory that
you're cleaning at thisuniversity.
And every one of these, thesestudents is someone's precious
child.
And don't, I don't care whyyou're working, why you got
here.
This is why your job exists andwhy you exist.
(12:56):
Every one of those people needneeds you.
And she said it was the firsttime in her life someone showed
her she was worthy and went onto change her belief systems
about herself.
She went on to.
Be one of the most sought afterjanitors at the university, and
was there for almost 30 years.
I asked her, I said, did youever tell that supervisor?
She goes, no, I forgot his name.
He got reassigned three monthslater.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025_1 (13:19):
Mm.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_ (13:21):
But what happens in these moments
and how this works is that whensomebody notices us or sees and
hears us, that supervisornoticed her, noticed that she
was struggling, a subtle cue,but then he took action to show
her that she was noticed.
When people affirm us, when theyshow us how our uniqueness makes
a unique difference, and whenpeople show us how we are
needed.
(13:41):
How someone else relies on us.
We tend to experience mattering,and when we experience those
things, we get two self beliefsthat are important.
The belief that I'm worthy andthe belief that I'm capable,
which Jane's story exemplifies.
when we believe that we'reworthy and capable, we develop
the confidence we need addvalue.
And this is where I think manyleaders get it wrong.
(14:04):
A lot of leaders think peopleshould be valued once they add
value, but psychologically theopposite is true.
People need to feel valued inorder to add value.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (14:12):
Yeah.
Yeah.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_ (14:13):
And the more they add value, the
more they see how they'reneeded, the more they feel
valued.
but we've asked thousands ofpeople this question, when you
most feel that you matter to aleader, what is going on?
And those three things thatJane's supervisor did come up,
often see and hear me.
I feel noticed.
They see my unique gifts andthey show me the difference that
I make.
I feel affirmed and they show mehow I'm needed, that I'm relied
(14:34):
on.
And we've actually, actuallyuncovered and been able to name
25 unique skills,
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025_1 (14:40):
Hm.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_1 (14:41):
To do all of those things.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (14:44):
Yeah, I think I just recently saw you
post those on LinkedIn as well.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_1 (14:48):
it because someone, I got all these
messages from people that werereading about mattering and they
were like, can you, can youactually list these out?
Like you say, they're theseskills.
So I actually reread my book andthen this research paper that
we're currently drafting rightnow, and I mined out with a
colleague like the 25 UniqueSkills, and I say
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (15:08):
Yeah.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_1 (15:09):
in it.
All leaders should be able to,because I do believe that it's
the minimum qualification ofleadership to make sure people
feel valued.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (15:17):
yeah.
Which we can definitely get intothat in, in a little bit.
Because I, I know as we talkedbefore, we hit record, maybe not
everyone would agree with youthat that is the minimum
qualification of a leader orwhat should define a leader's
success.
But I do want to kind of take aturn here because I also saw you
post about ai.
(15:38):
And you said, you were talking,you said, our moral
responsibility to one anothercannot be replaced.
Which is why the ability tobuild and sustain trust will be
more critical than ever.
That's another reason whyleaders and organizations must
double down on the essentialskills of being human.
So I'd love to hear what wasbehind that.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_ (16:01):
No, that's
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (16:02):
wrote that unless AI wrote it.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-20 (16:07):
Should only be afraid of AI taking your
job if you don't have the humanskills to show people they
matter.
Because AI going to take overyour technical and operational
and synthesizing skills.
It's gonna do it faster.
it's gonna do it more accuratelyjust because it has more
information than our brains cancompute in real time.
(16:28):
What it can never do, it can doyour tasks.
What it can never do is takemoral responsibility for them.
So while an AI, for example,could guide a customer through a
transaction.
has to develop the trust to takeresponsibility for that
transaction with that customer,for example.
And where does trust come from?
(16:49):
There are four predictors oftrust.
Researchers find.
One is care.
You cannot develop trust if youdo not care for somebody.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025_1 (17:00):
Hm.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_11 (17:00):
I was working with the top 200
leaders in the US Army and therewas a.
A special operations officerwho's responsible for part of
the officer training for specialops officers.
Now, these are like the highestperforming units on the planet.
So if there's a leader out therewho disagrees that mattering
doesn't result in performancethis is one of the top
(17:21):
performing units behind enemylines in lethal situations.
Have to act fast, act
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-202 (17:26):
Right.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025 (17:26):
they have to perform, or their lives
are at risk and others' livesare at risk.
And he said to me, no.
He said, you know, Zach, a lotof people say that the key
ingredient or think that a keyingredient of a lethal, high
performing unit behind enemylines is toughness.
He said, but it's not it's love.
No one is going to sacrifice forme if I don't know their kids'
names.
(17:47):
No one is gonna go above andbeyond and support someone else
who's in need if I don't supportthem in need in the months prior
to that engagement.
No one is going to go above andbeyond for me if I haven't gone
above and beyond for them daythat we're training together and
he hit on something reallyimportant, that you cannot
(18:09):
demon, you cannot have trustwithout care.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025_ (18:12):
Hmm.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_ (18:13):
And the second is consistency.
You know, you show upconsistently.
The third is competence.
You're good at your job.
And the third, the fourth issafety.
You also can't trust someonethat you feel psychologically
unsafe around Researchers findthat trust is impossible without
those bookends.
It doesn't matter how
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025_ (18:29):
Hmm.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_ (18:29):
you are at your job, it doesn't
matter your quarterly earningsreports.
It doesn't matter your how greatyour product launches are.
If you don't demonstrate carefor somebody and if they feel
unsafe with you, they will nottrust you.
The same is true with a
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-20 (18:43):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_1 (19:01):
we don't double down on the human
skills to care and createpsychological safety the people
that we interact with, and welose those skills to technology,
we will be obsolete.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (19:14):
Yeah.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_ (19:14):
am, I'm very thankful because that's
not gonna happen.
and the other thing that I'mthankful about is I love that AI
is gonna take over all of thethings that are wasting leaders'
time.
So they're not focused on theirpeople.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (19:26):
Yeah.
And, and what a great example ofthose military leaders.
'cause like you said, if there'sa place where high performance
is.
Critically important that, thatwould be it with, with lives on
the line.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_11 (19:41):
I went to a conference and also
the, if you watch this Netflix,this Netflix documentary on the
Blue Angels, Angels are thisnavy squadron that flies at an
ridiculously close to each otherat incredibly high speeds in
these jets.
And I met the commander of itcommander Armita.
And we were talking about thisand he had sat in on this
(20:02):
session on mattering, and hesaid, this is what it's all
about.
This is why we have to livetogether.
For six months, it's not.
So we're spending, the majorityof our time is not spent flying
together.
The majority of our time isspent learning about who each
other is, what's important toeverybody, what their
preferences are, what theirstyles are learning how what
(20:24):
their values are, what intereststhem.
We spend more time socializing.
Then we do training, and one ofthe reasons why is because
that's what develops care andthat trust, because I am much
more likely to maneuver in a waythat is careful and calibrated
and precise.
(20:45):
If I know that the person nextto me wants to get back to their
family,
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-202 (20:50):
Right.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025 (20:51):
that family is.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (20:53):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And it, it, it drivesperformance that, that
mattering, you know, knowingthat not only are you valued and
you add value, but you valuethat person next to you because
you know the value that they addas well.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_ (21:11):
And they have a saying.
They have a saying called Failtogether.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025_ (21:15):
Hmm.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_ (21:16):
You know that if
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (21:17):
Yeah.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-20 (21:17):
fails, the whole group takes that
failure on.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-202 (21:21):
Right?
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025 (21:21):
they fail together.
And I think that's where, youknow, that's where true
confidence comes from.
The confidence needed toperform.
It doesn't come from tellingsomeone to develop confidence or
go perform.
True confidence comes when weknow that someone has our back.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-20 (21:35):
Mm-hmm.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_1 (21:36):
We can
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (21:37):
Yeah.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-202 (21:37):
fail, experiment, take risks, and we
know someone else has our back.
And that's the foundation thatmattering creates when you show
someone that they matter.
I.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025_ (21:46):
Hmm.
There's so many, so manydifferent directions we could
take this conversation, but I, Ijust wanna, you know, as I wanna
double down a little bit on theAI piece because I was thinking
about it and I was like, well,you know, couldn't you in a chat
with an ai, you know.
Feel that the AI noticed you andcould it affirm you and could
(22:07):
you feel needed because of a, aconversation with it.
So I'm curious about yourthoughts on that and how, you
know, what differentiates thehuman application?
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_ (22:18):
The AI doesn't care if you come
back.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025_ (22:21):
Hmm.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2 (22:22):
There's no, there's no more powerful
experience I think in life thanknowing that your presence and
absence means something toanother person.
You're just a prompt to the ai,you're an input.
It
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (22:33):
Yeah.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_ (22:33):
not a human, you're not a, you're
not a you're not a human being'cause it doesn't know what it's
like to be a human being.
No matter how comforting your AImay be to you it doesn't care if
you come back
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (22:44):
Yeah.
So in a sense it's just emptywords.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-202 (22:47):
Yeah, people care.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (22:49):
Yeah.
Which makes me think, I mean, ifyou are a leader who doesn't.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_1 (22:54):
of care.
I would say it's
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (22:55):
Yeah.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-202 (22:56):
care.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-202 (22:57):
Right, right.
Yeah.
And, and so that, that kind ofreiterates the point too, that
if you are a leader and you aretrying to implement, you know,
noticing, affirming and needingthere has to be that care behind
it.
It can't just be you goingthrough the motions.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-20 (23:13):
Right.
And you know what's really greatabout AI though?
If you want to, like, forexample, say you have an
employee who's struggling, likeI would love to see leaders use
AI to say, I have an employeewho's struggling with this,
this, what's the, what are somethe best ways to approach this
conversation?
that, that is a reallyinteresting way of using AI
synthesizing.
and I would say like, what doesthe research say is the best way
(23:33):
to
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-20 (23:34):
Mm-hmm.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_ (23:35):
And that'll, that's, that's really
helpful because what you'redoing is you're working on the
craft of leadership.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (23:40):
Yeah.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_ (23:41):
and instead of just going and
reading the talking points thatyou get from chat two BT go, and
now you're armed with someknowledge, like you're learning
about what it means to take careof people.
You know, mentioned earlier thatsome leaders would disagree
that, you know, that's theminimum qualification for
leadership.
I don't think they're talkingabout leadership.
(24:01):
I
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025_ (24:01):
Hmm.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_11 (24:02):
a leadership is the occupation of
being responsible for the peopledoing the job.
I mean, your job is to care forthe people
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (24:12):
Well, you know, my initial thoughts on
this book part of it, you know,I thought maybe in our
individualistic culture, likesome people might take it as,
yes, I need to know that Imatter, and this is why my
leader should do this.
X, Y, and Z.
But you bring up many pointsabout the importance of
community when it comes tomattering.
(24:33):
You even talk about, you know,how the higher levels of
Maslow's pyramid are alldependent on others.
So I'd love to hear yourthoughts on that.
You know, why can't we selfaffirm ourselves into a sense of
mattering?
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_ (24:49):
Any belief that you have requires
your environment to confirm thatbelief, for you to have that
belief.
So, like I'm sitting on a chairright now, only reason why I
come into my office and I sitdown without really thinking
about it is because I believethe chair will hold me.
And it's for sitting on, it'snot gonna break now.
Now, what's the only reason why?
(25:09):
I know and believe that thechair won't break?
The only reason why is becauseI've sat in it time and time
again and it hasn't broken.
The same is true with anybelief.
why you can't just sit in youroffice and say, I believe in
myself and I am enough, and, anddevelop confidence, right?
You have to go out and see theevidence of your significance.
(25:31):
To believe in your significance.
In psychology, it's calledreflected appraisals.
It's how we come to experienceourself.
You wouldn't even have thelanguage say that you don't need
others to show you how youmatter if you didn't have others
to show you how to learnlanguage.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025_ (25:53):
Good point.
Good point.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_ (25:54):
You wouldn't actually be here, like
the people who say I am enough.
Like, I love the sentiment aboutthat, but scientifically it's
wrong because you wouldn't behere if at some point you hadn't
mattered enough to someone
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-20 (26:07):
Mm-hmm.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-20 (26:08):
alive.
So none of us are truly enough.
We are social beings, we areinterdependent beings.
We are interdependent.
Psychologically, sociologically,biologically, we become who we
are with others.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-20 (26:22):
Mm-hmm.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_ (26:22):
And so you can't, so you can come to
believe that you matter on yourown, but it takes others to show
us how we matter.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025_1 (26:31):
Ah, interesting distinction.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_ (26:33):
and here's the, here's the dynamic
is that you are that other forsomeone else.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-20 (26:39):
Mm-hmm.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_ (26:40):
And it happens in interactions.
So if you spend all of your timetrying to believe that you
matter and expecting everybodyto show you that you matter,
which a lot of our self-helpworld tells you to do, you know,
focus on yourself.
No one's coming to save you.
Let them, you know, whatever itis.
If you do that and if everybodydoes that.
We won't have anybody to come.
(27:02):
We won't have anybody toreaffirm our significance.
It's
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (27:05):
Yeah.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025 (27:05):
why, if you look at self-help books
published and loneliness andmental health issues, and I put
them on a line graph, you wouldshow them exploding upward
together because we have beenteaching people to actualize
themselves, but there's nocommittee in your brain that's
gonna tell you, you'reactualized enough now go help
others.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (27:26):
Yeah.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_1 (27:26):
do both at the same time.
Develop the belief that wematter, so we can act like we
matter, contribute to creatingmattering for other people.
When we contribute to creatingmattering for other people, we
create relationships thatdevelop an upward spiral and
they're more likely to do it for
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-20 (27:40):
Mm-hmm.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_ (27:41):
see the evidence of our
significance, and that's how wedevelop a stable belief.
That's where stable self-esteemcomes from.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (27:48):
Yeah.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025 (27:48):
that we matter, and we're in
environments that show us how wematter, a well individual in an
unwell relationship will becomean unwell individual.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (27:57):
Yeah, I, I, I love what you just said,
and, you know, I was thinking,I, I often talk about, you know,
people say Put your own oxygenmask on first so that you can
help others, which is important,but I always say, you know.
We, our leadership model isground grow give, so it always,
and I say it's an upward spiraland you're going through those,
(28:19):
you know, multiple times.
But the point is that give phaseis there.
It's not
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-202 (28:26):
Yeah.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025_1 (28:26):
own oxygen mask on and that's the
end of the sentence.
It's so that you can supportothers.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025 (28:34):
mask example is really interesting
because you're literally puttingon the oxygen mask so you don't
die,
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (28:40):
True.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_ (28:42):
So, so that you're alive so you can
help someone else.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (28:46):
Yeah.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025 (28:46):
most of us are alive, so we can help
someone else.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-20 (28:50):
Mm-hmm.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_1 (28:51):
So the oxygen thing is funny and it
takes about a second to slap themock oxygen mask on and then you
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (28:56):
True.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_ (28:57):
you better get to helping the person
next to you.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (29:00):
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Excellent point.
You know, I, I'm, I'm thinkingabout your, your conversation
about the environments and, youknow, an unwell, a, a well
person in an unwell relationshipeventually becomes unwell.
And I think about the story youbrought up about Viktor Frankl,
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025 (29:17):
Yes.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025_ (29:18):
and, you know, during his time in the
concentration camp, I'm curiousabout.
How his sense of matteringcontinued in that extreme
environment.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025 (29:30):
Wow.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23 (29:30):
wondering, you know, there are a lot of
leaders and and employees outthere who may be in an
environment that isn't showingthem that they matter and you,
they may feel like because ofthat they can't show people, you
know, act in a way that helpsothers to matter.
So I'm curious your thoughts onthat.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-202 (29:52):
Yeah, I first, I have to say that I am
in no way drawing an analogybetween what Franco went through
and
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (30:01):
Yeah, right.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_1 (30:02):
in an
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025_12 (30:03):
Of course.
Of course.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_ (30:05):
But Frankel himself actually went
into vocational guidance usingwhat he learned.
He actually went into talkingabout work and how we find
meaning in work, and that wasone of his core ways of using
his lessons.
So I can sort of channel that.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-20 (30:20):
Mm-hmm.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_ (30:21):
but there's a couple of things that
are interesting is that, of all,no, you don't need your
organization's permission orapproval.
For how you show up in your nextinteraction.
You may not have positionalpower, but you have
interactional power.
For example, every single thingwas stripped Viktor Frankl,
(30:44):
every shred of external dignityby those in power.
But how did he reclaim hispower?
If you read that book, hereclaimed his power by helping
others.
He found people to help.
He brought extra pieces ofbread.
He built community.
Also, when he talks about youknow, he who has a why to live
can bear almost.
(31:04):
Anyhow, he talks about how hewould constantly think about how
his wife needed him to get backto her as he was.
out into the fields to do thatwork.
He felt needed and he showedothers that they mattered.
By serving them, he regularlytook the opportunity to add
value.
(31:25):
Lawrence Gonzalez is an authorand he wrote this book called
Deep Survival, and he actuallystudied people in survival
situations and he was trying tounderstand the people that
survived.
Like this is like being lost inthe woods or like
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-20 (31:36):
Mm-hmm.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23- (31:37):
stranded on a mountaintop.
He tried to study what, whatcontributed to the people that
survived and the people thatdidn't.
And what he found was actually,it had nothing to do with
physical ability.
It had to do with people thoughtabout who they needed to get
home to.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025_ (31:53):
Hmm, hmm.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-20 (31:55):
People thought, oh, I have some
unfinished business.
I, I can't, this person can't goon without me.
know, they felt that theymattered.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-20 (32:04):
Mm-hmm.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_ (32:04):
And so, you know, one of the things
that we found that people do todevelop a mindset that helps
them see how they matter toothers so that they can act like
they matter to others, is theydevelop what I call a So that
mindset.
One of the custodians in ourstudy, I asked her, you know,
what's the most meaningful partof your job?
She said it was cleaning thebathrooms in the university
dormitories on the, after theweekends.
(32:25):
again, I was a PhD student, so Iwas like shocked.
I was, what, what?
That sounds gross.
And she goes, yeah, it's the.
of my job I hate the most, butevery time I go into that
bathroom, I say to myself, I'mcleaning this bathroom so that
these kids don't get sick.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-20 (32:40):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-20 (32:42):
What's purposeful isn't always
pleasurable.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-20 (32:45):
Mm-hmm.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_1 (32:46):
of two kids.
up all night with a kid with astomach bug is not pleasurable.
It is pur.
It is purposeful.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (32:54):
Yeah.
zach-mercurio_1_07- (32:55):
purposeful, right?
And I think that one of thethings that we've tried to find,
we expect pleasure from work allthe time.
We expect other to give uspleasure.
We expect everything to be easy.
But oftentimes what's purposefulis not always pleasurable.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-20 (33:09):
Mm-hmm.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_1 (33:09):
So making the choice of showing
remembering, you're so that, ofshowing up in your next
interaction and showing someonehow they matter.
Making the choice to go first.
If your leader's not doing thisfor you, are you doing it for
them?
True leaders.
I'm not talking about positionalleaders.
I think true leaders go first,Even when it's not being done to
(33:30):
them.
And
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (33:31):
Yeah.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025 (33:32):
hard is that to say?
How hard is that to even thinkabout?
There's people listening thatare like, what are you talking
about?
I'm in this toxic workplace.
I'm not gonna self-sacrifice
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-202 (33:40):
Right?
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-20 (33:42):
That's also the burden and
responsibility of leadership.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (33:45):
Yeah, that going first.
And what do you do then if youare going first and you don't
feel like anything's changing?
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_1 (33:55):
At least you know that you did your
best,
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025_ (33:58):
Hmm.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-20 (33:58):
right?
At least you have that.
least you're not being a passiverecipient of.
Culture and you're being anactive constructor of it.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025_ (34:07):
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_1 (34:07):
in Colorado.
It gets it's really dry here.
Like it's not conducive tohaving gardens, but we all want
a garden.
It's just something nice abouthaving a garden.
But what I've learned is likewhile I'm in like this semi arid
environment, I have to createmicroclimates Tomatoes to grow
well, like I have to like createa microclimate for it.
(34:28):
So it thinks it's in a differentclimate.
I think great leaders,especially in toxic
organizations, are really goodat creating microclimates,
microclimates where people feelthat they matter.
And where does that come from?
It comes from your dailyinteractions.
No one can take your interactionpower away from you.
You Need anybody's permission.
There's no red tape to caring.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-202 (34:48):
right.
Yeah.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025 (34:49):
And, and you know what I find is when
leaders do choose to do this,they actually feel better.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-20 (34:53):
Mm-hmm.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2 (34:54):
Because they may be in a toxic
environment, they can go homeknowing that the people they
serve aren't going home to thepeople that love them,
complaining about them
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (35:03):
Yeah.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_ (35:04):
and
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025_ (35:04):
Very true.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2 (35:05):
they've made their life.
They can go home and say, youknow, I'm in this organization.
My job's really tough, but myleader, she, he, she has my
back.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-20 (35:13):
Mm-hmm.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_ (35:14):
And that's what keeps me going.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (35:16):
Yeah.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_ (35:16):
And then they tell that to somebody
and they tell that to theirchild and their child and they
remember, and you, you cascade aleadership lesson by doing that.
That's your legacy.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-202 (35:25):
Right, right.
Yeah.
Creating that microclimate, soin that microclimate.
How do you apply theseprinciples with an employee
who's not performing?
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_ (35:37):
Mm.
One of the misconceptions peopledo ask me, Zach, how do I, how
do I show people they matterwhen I need them to improve
their performance?
Which is a real thing.
Nobody, we wouldn't have jobs ororganizations if we didn't meet
the numbers, whatever thenumbers
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-20 (35:49):
Mm-hmm.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-20 (35:50):
right?
But the, the what's missed isthat you show people they
matter.
So that.
They perform well.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-20 (35:57):
Mm-hmm.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_ (35:57):
You show people that they matter so
that you can hold themaccountable.
What typically happens ispeople, especially leaders, I
find they critique before theyactually do the work to care.
There's a study in HarvardBusiness Review that study
thousands of incidents,incidences of employee
performance, improving feedback,and they found that about 40% of
(36:20):
those instances actuallydecreased performance.
And the same thing with negativecritique on its own decreased
performance.
reason why is not because theemployees are weak and they
can't handle it.
The reason why is thatresearchers found the employees
didn't feel understood or heardor seen by the person giving the
feedback.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-20 (36:39):
Mm-hmm.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_ (36:39):
the last time something someone said
mattered to you when you didn'tfeel that you mattered to them.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (36:46):
Yeah.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_1 (36:46):
So a lot of leaders don't
understand that the performanceimproving feedback conversation,
the quality of that conversationactually happens months, years,
days before the actualconversation where you're
building that trust Sense ofcare, and through creating a
sense of safety.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (37:06):
Yeah.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2 (37:07):
there's a, there's a psychologist named
David Jager and he finds thatpeople are much more likely,
almost four times more likely toimprove their performance.
If you do these three things,whenever you give critique, if
these three things are present,first is whenever you're gonna
critique someone's performanceor give this type of
performance, improving feedback,express your belief in the
person.
I believe in you, and I believein the impact you can make here.
(37:31):
Second is name the uniquestrengths and gifts they already
have.
I really rely on you.
You're always consistent, you'realways showing up, you're always
asking questions, you're alwaysresourceful.
I need you to u.
You can use those to improve inthis area.
And then the third is expressyour support, specific support.
I'm here to help.
And every Tuesday morning, Ijust wanna check in with you on
(37:53):
if there's any log jams that Ican remove to help you perform
better.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (37:57):
Yeah.
Yeah.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_ (37:58):
And if those three things are
present, people are much morelikely to improve their
performance.
Why?
Because
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-20 (38:05):
Mm-hmm.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_1 (38:23):
do the work to make sure people
feel cared for.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (38:26):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Whew.
That was excellent answer withjust, you know, very practical
steps that people can take and,and misconceptions that are
behind that, that question initself.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-202 (38:39):
just, I see so many and I, and you
know what, I also, I'm gonna addthis I think this is an
important discussion.
A lot of leaders simply give upon people too fast.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-20 (38:48):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_1 (38:51):
of people that come up to me in a
workshop and they'll say, oh,you know, it's just this person
will never change.
They've been underperforming.
No matter what I do, I try allthis stuff and nothing happens.
And I say, well, how long has itbeen?
They're like, seven months.
Seven Months of a human life.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-202 (39:07):
Right.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23- (39:07):
develop, to change in behavior, And so
my, my, my response is always,well, you offloading that
person?
Have you decided that person'snot a fit?
Are you gonna, going to see ifthey wanna be reassigned or are
you going to, you know, offboardthem, fire them?
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (39:26):
Yeah.
Yeah.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_ (39:28):
And if they say no, I say, okay,
well, they're under your care,so you have to care.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-20 (39:32):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025 (39:33):
give up.
If they're under your care,they're under your care.
You cannot give up.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-20 (39:38):
Mm-hmm.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_ (39:38):
And that's the responsibility of
leadership.
And,
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (39:41):
Yeah.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-202 (39:42):
know, over time that person's
performance is yourresponsibility.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (39:46):
Yeah.
Yeah.
zach-mercurio_1_07- (39:47):
perpetually underperforming.
A leader's occupation is to takecare of the people doing the
job, and one of your people isperpetually underperforming.
If you've kept them under yourcare, then that's a job
performance issue of the leaderas
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (40:04):
Yeah.
You gotta care before theperform.
You don't care because peopleperform.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-202 (40:10):
Yeah.
Yeah, that's good.
That's
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (40:12):
yeah.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-20 (40:13):
that's true.
And it's true.
It's psychologically true aswell.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (40:16):
Yeah.
So last question, what aboutthose like I referenced earlier
who are like, you know, this.
This doesn't matter because itshouldn't work.
Just be more like a sports team.
I think to use your languagebefore we hit record and there
kind of, of the, you know,strong man mindset of, you know,
only the fittest should survive.
(40:39):
I.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-202 (40:39):
Yeah.
there's this, there's this wholenotion that, know, I agree with
it that work is not a fam workis not family, right?
We shouldn't conflate the two.
But I also that everybody atwork part of a family, right?
We shouldn't be friends withpeople at work.
(40:59):
Well, everybody at work issomeone's friend.
And oftentimes we use this wholenotion of it's just work as an
excuse to make it easier todehumanize people.
It's easier to make a lot ofmoney quicker and dehumanize
people you treat them like areplaceable resource.
But in the long term, whenpeople feel replaceable, they
(41:20):
usually act that way and theyleave and they don't show up and
they don't commit.
And then every eight years youhave a labor crisis when the
market loosens up and it's morefavorable to employers, they
leave.
Right.
And so, the other idea isthinking about organization as
an elite sports team.
And I think it's a, it's areally bad example because the
percentage of people that areelite athletes is like less than
(41:44):
like 1% of the world'spopulation.
Okay.
We're talking about people whoare gifting you their time and
their skills.
That's why it's calledcompensation, for example.
You're compensating someone fortheir lost time and skills.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-20 (41:59):
Mm-hmm.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-20 (42:00):
You're making up for the time you're
taking from somebody, the giftsthey're giving you.
So most people aren't eliteathletes.
So organizations have to be aplace where people can develop
where they are developingpeople's sense of self-worth
ability.
They're training grounds forthese essential skills people
need to have.
(42:20):
if you're going to expect peopleto perform.
a high level, but you're notcreating an environment that
regenerates their energy toperform through making sure they
feel that they matter.
You are really creating a recipefor despair.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (42:35):
Yeah.
Yeah.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2 (42:36):
There's
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-202 (42:36):
Which.
zach-mercurio_1_07- (42:37):
frustrating being asked to perform at a high
level than being in anenvironment extracts the energy
you need to perform.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (42:46):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So true.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025_ (42:48):
And also I'm gonna add this.
If you look at the best sportsteams, there's a, one of the
commonalities is this idea of,of just do your job, right?
But it's not, it's not as likehard as it seems.
Do your job means you are anintegral part of the whole and
what you do affects someoneelse.
So
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (43:07):
Okay.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-2025 (43:07):
when you look at high performing
sports teams, they do a greatjob of making sure people feel
that they matter first.
If you wanna use
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-20 (43:13):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, that.
Yeah, you can't really denythat.
You know, it might not beevident, but when you look at it
a little bit longer, it's, it'sright there.
Well thank you so much for thisconversation.
There are so many pieces that Iwanna just replay for myself and
dig more deeply into.
But I really appreciate yourtime today.
People want to learn more aboutyou and the work that you do.
(43:35):
Where's the best place for themto go?
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-202 (43:37):
Yeah, you can go to zach mercurio.com.
There's also a section there onmattering, and there's some free
downloads, like aself-assessment.
There's also, we didn't get intolike some of the specific
skills, but there's sometemplates on like how to give
better gratitude to people,
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-20 (43:51):
Mm-hmm.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-20 (43:52):
better feedback.
How to show people that you relyon them.
and it's, again, it's simple,small actions that you can take
in your next interaction.
So check that out.
teri-schmidt_1_07-23-2025 (44:01):
Yeah.
Yeah, definitely.
We'll make sure that gets linkedin the show notes, and of course
we just.
Got right on the surface ofwhat's in the book.
So I highly encourage everyoneto, to go out and at a minimum,
get the book and, and listen toit.
It's so important for all of us.
We spend so much time of ourlives at work and it flows into
(44:23):
all other areas of our lives.
So highly recommend everyonegetting out there and getting
this book.
So thank you again, Zach.
zach-mercurio_1_07-23-202 (44:30):
Thank you, Terry.
Thanks for having me on.
As we wrap up, I keep comingback to Zach's reminder that
even in tough environments,leaders have the power to create
micro climates, small pocketswhere people feel seen, valued,
and needed.
Those microclimates don't juststay contained.
(44:51):
They ripple outward into teams,families, and communities.
So here's my challenge to you.
In your very next interaction,choose to show someone that they
matter.
Notice them affirm them.
Remind them that they areneeded.
It may feel small, but as Zachreminded us, those small moments
(45:14):
add up to cultures ofsignificance because leadership
isn't about waiting for theperfect program or policy.
It's about the everyday choiceswe make to help people thrive.
I.
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