Transforming Leadership Through Vulnerability: Embracing Mental Wellness and Cultural Humility

Episode Transcript
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Melissa Franklin (00:00):
a little bit about tonight's panel.
I'm super excited about theseindividuals.
They got a chance to meet andchat with each other a little
bit but to kind of share alittle bit of insight.
We start first tonight withmyself.
I am the host, but this is morefor Structure Innovations and
my clients, in a way to be ableto create a space where
executives and leadershipindividuals can actually feel

(00:23):
safe and feel justified inprioritizing their mental
wellness.
I was excited to be able tobring on these three experts.
I start with Bernie DeSantis.
I have met him through SuccessChampions Networking.
He is the owner of IndigniaEducation and to me he is a
business education expert butdefinitely has those leadership
insights and I'm super excitedto have him on this evening.

(00:45):
We also have Dr Tawana Chambers.
She doesn't usually put doctorin there, but I always do so
she's happy with it.
She's amazing.
She is working now with theNational Board of Certification.
She is an expert inorganizational leadership and
she is my former superintendent.
We also have Jennifer Harrishere this evening.

(01:05):
She is a design andimplementation specialist.
I would say she is yourafter-school programs guru and
anything when it comes tobringing joy and happiness.
This is your girl.
She was also a coach of mineand helped me as my program and
design implementation specialist.
I am super excited to have allthree of them join me to have a
very important discussiontonight about mental wellness.

(01:29):
Welcome to Structuring ChaoticMinds, the podcast where we turn
the chaos of everydaychallenges into structured
success.
I'm your host, melissa, andeach episode we'll explore
innovative strategies, real lifestories and actionable insights
to help you navigate thecomplexities of leadership,
business and personal growth.
Whether you're an entrepreneur,a leader or someone striving

(01:50):
for personal development, thispodcast will give you the tools
to create clarity in the chaos.
Let's dive in All righty, guys.
So, getting started, I wentahead and asked my clients what
does mental wellness mean to you?
And these are some of thethoughts or things that I heard.
First, and it was buildingresilience, thriving through
challenges, work-lifeintegration.

(02:11):
What they meant was aligningtheir priorities, and then
healthier team dynamics, sofostering trust and
collaboration.
So I'm curious from you guys,though how often do you
prioritize mental wellness inyour leadership roles?
You can just go ahead and getthat in a chat.
For this first one, a would bealways, b would be sometimes, c

(02:31):
would be rarely or D would benever.
So I'm thinking about that.
I'm going to start withJennifer, because she was
closest to watching me and sheknows probably what my answer
would be on how often Iprioritize it.
What are you thinking aboutthese results that we're seeing
here right now?

Jennifer Harris (02:47):
Yeah, I mean, I think the biggest thing when
I'm looking at these results arejust like yeah, it makes the
most sense, like it's in termsof these pieces, like it like
you have to have aintentionality around this focus
and not being an afterthoughtand such, and so I think that's

(03:11):
what the hardest thing is.
Like when I think one of thebiggest things when it comes to
this is like so, my husband,he's a pilot and when, when we
travel and we hear like thebrief, like brief, that they're
like you need to put your likeoxygen mask on yourself before
you treat others, this is like100%.
I was like, oh yeah, whatever,like I don't have a, I don't
have a baby, but in terms ofthis, this is 100%.

(03:34):
Like you have to be able totreat yourself before you can
lean in and supporting others onyour team, and so this doesn't.
This doesn't surprise me,because I think most people that
are involved in this work arevery much like invested in the
fact that, like we want to serveothers, and it's like you can't
serve others until you canfirst serve yourselves.

Agreed.
I'm going to pass this off toDr Chambers, because I think
we've been in that space beforeYou've recently just gone
through that so can you tell mewhat your thoughts were and how
this kind of relates?
Sure?

Dr. Chawanna Chambers (04:07):
I think there's a world in which leaders
especially if you are someonewho cares very deeply about the
team or about you know thepeople that they're supporting,
that you, it seems like you needto prioritize everybody else,
you need to prioritize the team,you need to prioritize the
family, et cetera Talk all thetime about you can't pour from
an empty right.

(04:28):
So if you haven't taken thetime to feel yourself right,
recognize where you are strongerat and where you need some
additional support, it'll be alot harder for you to engage in
the way that you need to engage,especially as a people manager.
And so I will say one of thethings that I had to do is I had
my own therapist right and inthis case, right now, I have a

(04:51):
coach, an executive coach, whomI work with regularly.
I bring things right from myteam to this person and I talk
to this person and they help me.
They help me to process mymental health around being a
people manager, becauseoftentimes you will take on the
the burdens or the strugglesthat that your team have, and so

(05:14):
you know they say sometimes buttruthfully, we want to get that
almost always, because you mayfind that there's a time where
you need to be on right tosupport someone else, but you're
, but you're empty because youhaven't been prioritizing what
you, you, you haven't beenprioritizing things that you

(05:34):
need to to be able to be on forthat person.
So very much understand why it'sso.
It's sometimes a lot, but asyou get to a place where you are
recognizing as a leader, you dohave to prioritize me so that I
can prioritize my team and beable to give when they need it,

(05:55):
because you're going to becoaching people and sometimes it
means you are building capacityin them and that means modeling
what that looks like so thatthey can see for themselves.
Oh, okay, here's how you knowNoel does it Great.
Okay, I'm gonna fashion myselfaround the way that I've seen

(06:17):
her bring this out right, but ifyou are not taking care of you,
it's gonna be a lot harder foryou to be the model that we want
to be for our team I appreciatethat.

I think I love that.
You've always said that.
I know, being a part of yourteam, that was something you
always brought up to us.
We had to take care ofourselves before we could take
care of anybody else.
You still expected excellence,but it was kind of hard not to
give that excellence when youwere already modeling it and it
was like click proof.
Everything was there.
So that's beautiful.
But that kind of takes me overto discussion I've had with

(06:52):
Bernie.
Recently we chatted about thisand we were we've been doing
time blocking.
Bernie and I have been lookingat what our schedules really
looked like as leaders and whenthe discussion was real, it's
still not there.
It's still like let's go serveBernie.
You want to kind of chime intothat?

Bernie DeSantis (07:09):
Yeah, absolutely, you know.
I think that you know as, asleaders, we always want to be at
our best and try to pour intoother people, and we'll even
prioritize other people'swellbeing and success over our
own right, because if you'retruly a good servant leader,
that's what you're built to do,right?
So it's oftentimes, as that goodservant leader, difficult to

(07:31):
stop and take a look back orlook in the mirror and say what
am I not doing for myself?
Because I thought the phrasewas very well put, dr Shawna,
you can't pour from an empty cupright as a leader, if you are

(07:52):
spending 10, 12, 14, 16 hours aday just with your team and
tending to their needs, they'regoing to appreciate it, most
likely and no doubt.
But you're never going to be asgood as you can for them if
you're not prioritizing your ownday, your own well-being, your
own time, taking your lunchbreaks and maybe taking a brief
meditation break or, whateverthe case might be right, taking
a walk in the course of the day,but oftentimes it does.

(08:13):
It gets difficult when you getcaught up in fast pace of your
day to day and back-to-backmeetings and everybody wants a
piece of your schedule and youwant it to be there for them to
prioritize your own wellbeing.

So very true.
So then that takes us to ournext piece and it's going to
come down to breaking thosebarriers.
I don't know about you guys,but I know for me a common
stigma or common fear is reallylike I'm going to come off
looking weak.
And then it's theorganizational culture avoids
the conversation.
So I have to share this partfor myself.

(08:46):
And it was a story about a year,and it was a year and a half
ago maybe now, and it was aroundspring, and I had a very heavy
deadline.
And I remember waking up, verystressed out and I couldn't see
my computer screen anymore, andI remember calling Jennifer,
crying and freaking out,thinking I'm going blind, like I

(09:10):
really think I'm going blind.
I don't know what's happeningright now.
I'm freaking out.
I have a friend coming to pickme up from the hospital, uh, but
this stuff is due, and I don'tknow.
And she just told me like, stopit, like you might actually be
going blind and you're stillworried about what's due instead
of you.
And I was like, but shit, thedeadline, like we still have a

(09:32):
deadline.
And she was doing that rightthere, like that's great and the
deadline's gonna come.
And oh well, I was just likethey're to be so disappointed in
me.
Oh my God, and I kept thinkingto myself too.
Had it been a different scenario, where the conversation had
been flowing with my manager,had it had the way it had been

(09:55):
previously, there would havealready been awareness of this
With Dr Chambers.
It was like every day, so whereare you at, so where are we at?
And then when she was gone, itwas like every day, so where are
you at, so where are we at?
And then when she was gone, itwas like crickets.
Well, when we get to it, we getto it.
So, thinking about that, drChambers and I have had that
conversation for myself.
Why is that stigma there?

(10:16):
Why can't we speak up about it?
So, thinking about that, whatprevents leaders from addressing
mental health openly?
I know what it means for me,but I want to hear from the
audience before we startbreaking in with our panelists.
Is it fear of judgment, lack oftime, organizational culture,
lack of knowledge?
Let's start this time, then,with burning.

(10:39):
What do you notice or what doyou think is the underlying
thing that actually preventsleaders from addressing it
openly?

Yeah, we're seeing a lot of A's fear of
judgment come in and Idefinitely feel like that is
probably the lowest hangingfruit.
But who was it?
Aaron said all of the above andI tend to agree with you.
I think that it's a combinationof all of the above, and I tend
to agree with you.
I think that it's a combinationof all of the above.
Right, it's never very rarelyis it just one particular thing

(11:11):
in any given situation or issue.
Right, that you're dealing with, I think to a degree.
You know, everybody wants to bethat subject matter expert, be
that, you know, revered leader.
You don't want to show weaknessand be judged for it, but I
think reducing the stigma aroundmental health and being

(11:32):
vulnerable and sharing as aleader helps to reduce that
judgment.
Right, it humanizes you alittle bit and it lets people
know that everybody has to dealwith these challenges to one
degree or another.
Right?
I think lack of time isdefinitely something that I can
say.
I personally run into right,because I'm always on the go,

(11:53):
always running around, and Idon't ever want to say that I
need to slow down in order totake care of myself, because
there's always people out therethat are depending on me, so
that's kind of a two-step there.
Right, lack of time, which alsogoes back to that fear of
judgment or letting people down.
There's always people out therethat are depending on me, so
that's kind of a two step there.
Right, lack of time, which alsogoes back to that fear of
judgment or letting people down.

(12:14):
Organizational culture is a bigone as well.
You know particular industriesespecially really push hard on
that.
You know working from home,late nights, and you know never
get to take a break, and themore tired you are, the prouder
you should be of yourself andall of that stuff.
I'm hopeful that that type ofculture is ultimately dying out
in America, because it's justtruly unhealthy.
And I'd also venture to saythat lack of knowledge is a huge

(12:37):
one as well, because, for themost part, unless you personally
deal with mental health on aregular basis, you're
unconsciously incompetent.
You don't know what you don'tknow unless you've exposed
yourself to it.
So I would say that it's astrong combination of all of
them.

Whichever one of you ladies would like to take
that one.

Yeah, I was about to say I was going to
say what I wrote down was it isorg cultures built by people who
lack the knowledge and don'tprioritize the vulnerability.
It is all of those things inone an organization and

(13:28):
developing its culture and itshabits and and these pieces.
Well, you can only develop aculture from the knowledge that
you have, and so if you, if youdon't have the, the knowledge of
what it looks like to beemotionally intelligent and to
have empathy and to prioritizehumanity over productivity, then

(13:48):
you won't know how to create aculture that can be sustained in
those things.
So I don't always think it isintentional that leaders
separate these things right,separate these things right.
But there's a very much aprevailing idea that work is
work and it should be completelyseparate from your emotional

(14:13):
state and your X, y and Z.
Right, it's check it at thedoor, it's leave it at the door
and essentially we have taughtpeople to leave half of who they
are or just leave theirhumanity at home.
And I need you to bring thejust, the productivity, and make
that what we're focused on here.
But it is that lack ofrecognition that we are whole

(14:36):
and we will always come to workwhole or missing parts of us.
So I can never be as productiveas you'd like me to be because
you told me to leave half of meat home.
Right, and that's the.
It is.
We shift that by making surethat leaders have the capacity
to understand emotionalintelligence and the ability to

(15:00):
model that for teams and to becritical about the culture that
we are creating withinorganizations, so that we're not
avoiding the tough parts.
But all of that comes with.
Do you have trust?
Do you have the vulnerability,the trust to be vulnerable with
this person?
If I don't, I'm not going toshow you that.

(15:22):
Do you value me as a wholeperson or do you only value me
for the skill set, the hardskills that I am getting paid to
?
You know to do every day, butI'll say it's all of those
things and not necessarilyintentional in all ways.
I think a lot of it's just lackof knowledge, and human beings

(15:45):
are the ones creating thesecultures, and then you know,
teaching other people.
Well, this is how you have tobe if you want to get ahead, if
you want to be a leader.
You got to be X instead ofchoosing to.
Well, I don't know this.
Let me go find out, let mebuild my capacity and then bring
it back to my organization.

Oh, I love that, love it.
What about you, jen?

Oh, my like Shawana she was, like she was
preaching it Like I mean, that'sexactly what I would say.
I mean, like everything wouldbe like, first of all, it's
human first Doesn't matter, Idon't give a shit, sorry, I'm
not, but I don't give a shit,sorry, I'm not, but I don't give
a shit.
Like what the title of what youhave?
You're a human first.
We need to see you as a human.

(16:28):
That's super important.
The second thing is modelingthat you're going to be
vulnerable, like you need to bea vulnerable leader.
You want to create trust, justlike she was saying, like
absolutely.
Then you need to put yourselfout there, because people will
model or they'll lean in to whatthey see.

(16:49):
If you talk the talk and don'twalk the walk, then like, that's
a whole different space.
So you have to be able to like,lean in and be like I'm going
to talk the talk and I inviteothers and I'm going to be put
myself in these positions andspaces, and that's like, just
like, so important.

(17:09):
Like we all are just humans.
Let's just start there andwe're all humans.
We want to be seen, we want tobe valued, we want to create
spaces where we can trust oneanother, we want to build
relationships, we actually wantto do good shit.
Like actually, it doesn'tmatter what it is like, whatever
it is, we want to do good stuff, and like that's the bottom

(17:32):
line.
And so, yeah, I could not agree,like I could not agree more.
That like it's just about youhave to lean in, to be
vulnerable as a leader, becausewhen you are, others feel more
inclined to then create anemotion, like an emotionally
climate where they too can leanin.

(17:53):
Because trust is it?
Like it's a simple five-letterword, but it is not a simple
five-letter word, like it is somuch around those investments,
around what trust really means,and so you have to lean into it
as a leader, and when you doothers, I mean I do feel the
more you make those deposits,others will follow as well sorry

(18:19):
that I swore well, I'm glad youdid, because I do too and so I
was like, who's gonna?

break the ice on this?

um, no, I think a piece that is that we
haven't mentioned, but is amajor part of this as a leader
is recognizing how you show upin the world and and that that
cultural humility that plays arole in how you build trust with
the people that are on yourteam and how, how willing they
are going to be to be vulnerablewith you if you don't see the

(18:51):
whole of who they are, if youdon't recognize that.
Hey, I show up as a black womanin my life every day, and so in
the workspace, when people aretalking to to me, I'm always
being conscious of how I'msaying things right, because I'm
a big tone police my entirelife, and so I'm trying to
always think about how am Igoing to say this thing so that

(19:11):
people don't hear angry Blackwomen, so they hear what I, what
we need to say to you know, toget us to where we need to be,
and part of that is inleadership recognizing you show
up in the world and what thepower dynamics look like, as
we're talking about mentalhealth, as we're talking about
all of these pieces, becausethose are not separate, and if

(19:33):
you are not willing, as a leader, to have the hard conversation,
which is that as well.
It is going to be reallydifficult to build the trust
that you need to build with yourteam so that everyone can feel
that vulnerability and be ableto model for each other what it
looks like to take care of selfwell as the team.

No, that's perfect.
I appreciate that, becausethat's going to get us into our
next piece is I'm going to askeach of you and whichever one of
you want to come off mute first.
But I'm going to ask each ofyou and whichever one of you
want to come off mute first, butI'm going to invite each of you
to really think about yourunique perspectives on
leadership and mental wellness.
But, really, what does it taketo get that going then?

(20:14):
So we're talking about all thewhys, we're talking about all
the things that we need to modeland those types of things, but
what would it take from thatleader?
Because for me, it'sreplicating, sure, but it's
going to take straight up thecourage to be vulnerable.
That's going to be the firstthing, like the real courage to
be vulnerable and the courage toshit.

(20:36):
They might not think I'mamazing.
They might be like what thehell, before they even embrace
that.
That's the one for me.
So I'm curious to hear from youguys what would it take to
actually embrace mental wellnessand leadership?

I want to jump in first, just because I think a
couple of things that I wouldjust say on my end is that
there's a huge self-awareness asa leader just to know that,
like you don't need to have allthe answers.
You are human, like everyoneelse, you're living the life

(21:14):
like anyone else.
Into that as a leader, and likeacknowledge that I've always
thought like the teams felt muchmore confident in being able to
create safe spaces with them.
I think the other thing is whenit comes to just trust, like

(21:34):
trust is the foundation of whatlike any individual relationship
or culture that you're tryingto create within your
organization, and everythingthat you do is either deposited
into a bank of trust orwithdrawing from a bank of trust
.
So, whether it's one-on-onetime, staff meeting time, I

(22:01):
would encourage people like notbe so like hyper focused on
every second of the day, butlike every moment that you have
with somebody is about am Icreating an opportunity to build
trust or withdraw trust?
And I mean, let's be clear,like if, like an economic

(22:23):
standpoint, like the more thatwe build trust, the gains on
that are great, and it can takeone big thing of mistrust that
can take a big withdrawal fromyour account and then you're
starting from scratch.
So, like I am.
So about what is that you do inthe moment?

(22:44):
And it's not the big moments,it's the little moments as a
leader that you are reallyconnecting with people to build
trust, seeing who they are,acknowledging what they need,
not multitasking in yourcommunications with them, like
just seeing who they are ashumans.
When you do that, it's a valuefor everybody, not multitasking

(23:04):
in your communications with them, like just seeing who they are
as humans.
When you do that, it's a valuefor everybody and at the same
time, it just builds, likecollateral in your bank account
around trust.
And so when things become,there will be times that things
will become part of anorganization that are kind of
that might be kind of sketchy orsuch.

(23:24):
When you have a good deposit inyour bank account, people might
see things a little bitdifferently or such, but it's an
investment that you have to beable to make and that's the most
important part.

I love that.
What about you, Bernie?

You know I think we've touched on it a few
times you know, leading byexample is going to be the
strongest way that, ultimately,you can foster that type of
culture.
You know, I've had a lot ofexperience, obviously, sharing
my personal experiences andstories with people as it
pertains to, you know, losing mybest friend to suicide 20 years
ago, sharing my story has aallowed me to heal personally,

(24:08):
but I feel it's also givenpeople an opportunity to connect
with me in ways that theywouldn't have otherwise.
Right, and it's it's humanizedme.
It's made me that much moreapproachable, because there are
a lot of people who have gonethrough similar things.
Also, when you're talking aboutleading by example and again we
touched on this a little bit isjust modeling those healthy
behaviors right?
You know you and I talked aboutthis taking breaks, setting

(24:29):
boundaries, spending time withthe people that are important to
us.

Noelle (24:32):
And.

I think another thing that's really interesting
that we don't see a lot of isleaders actually utilizing the
mental health resources that areavailable within their
organization.
Right, it kind of goes back tothat judgment piece, but if you,
as a leader, are utilizing thevery resources that you're
trying to make available to yourteams and the people within
your organization, it shows thatyou have trust in those tools

(24:55):
that you're making available tothem.
And I feel like I'm going tostart stepping on Dr Shea's toes
a little bit here, but I thinkit's.
You know, ultimately it'seducating people, right.
It's taking the time to offerthose workshops.
You know, talk about mentalhealth awareness and literacy,
both from the leadershipperspective as well as the
employee perspective.
You know what does it mean?
How do we recognize it withinour coworkers?

(25:17):
How do we support each otherwhen we notice those things are
happening?
Those are the two biggestthings that I would say is
leading by example as a leaderand then providing the education
and the resources to yourpeople.

Okay, so don't hate me, Dr Spurston, but
Jennifer just spit fire and thenso did Bernie.
And then, listening to whatthey said, you've been a
superintendent of anorganization that started from
like small to large and thenyou're now helping educators
across the entire nation do epicthings.

(25:51):
Thinking of that and all thesetbacks you've had, how did you
finally push back on the stigmaand make sure that you actually
could bernie just said it makesure that people were utilizing
the resources that they had andit not get thrown back in your

(26:13):
face like I don't know thecomments, like sometimes you
don't look that tired or youlook like you're handling it
okay or like well, are you sure,because you're always killing
it, like what about you?
That's a good good question.

So I I wrote down right like modeling
healthy behaviors.
That was one of the things Iwas doing some research on.
Like, oh, how can I talk about?
I think in my I spent a greatdeal of my career not
prioritizing my mental health.
It was about trying to provethat I was smart enough to be

(26:53):
where I was.
It is why I have so manycertifications, it is why I have
so many letters, I have so manydegrees, all of the things
Because it was about provingthat I knew what I was talking
about and I went to school to dothe thing right and I can do
the actual work, I can do thestrategic stuff and I can do the

(27:14):
day-to-day whatever you need tohave done.
So it wasn't until I startedtherapy.
I was already in an executiverole and started therapy,
therapy I was already in anexecutive role and started
therapy and was like trying tothink through okay, why do I do
these things?
Why am I spending?
Why am I working 70 hours aweek, right?
Why am I always going, nevertaking vacations, never doing
the thing?
And I think I got I just got toa point where it was not.

(27:39):
I was not ashamed of going totherapy, and so I would be in
our executive meetings talkingnot, I was not ashamed of going
to therapy and so I would be inour executive meetings talking
about yeah, I was talking abouttherapists.
I and you know it was kind oflike, oh, she's talking about a
therapist, but I just did itregularly.
It became part of myconversation when I was in my
check-ins with my teammates, my,the people that I'm responsible

(28:01):
for.
I'm like, yeah, my therapistand I were talking about this
thing that I was struggling with, and that was part of the
authenticity of building thetrust.
Like I wasn't doing itintentionally, like I'm going to
get this person to trust me,but I was modeling like this is
an area of struggle for me.
Professionism is reallydifficult for me, and it is why
it takes me so long to get X, yand Z done.
So here's what I have soughtout support from a professional

(28:26):
to work on that, and so when Iwould talk to my team and I
would see something in them,they're like I can see it in
them, because it's a thing Iused to do.
Then I can say you know what Iwas struggling with that too.
Here's what my therapist didfor me going with that too.
Here's what my therapist um didfor me.

(28:46):
Let's try this, I want you totry this thing, and when we meet
for our check-in next week,we're going to talk about right
and so, like in my, in myprofessional one-on-one, you
know check-ins with my team, Istarted talking about cognitive
distortions, right either, orall kinds of things right, and
teaching and teaching them toBernie's point like educate,
using that language in myprofessional setting, so that

(29:06):
they could, like, go Google it.
And they're like oh, hey, we'retalking about this thing over
here, okay, and so when I movedto the national boards, I worked
for the national board for theprofessional teaching standards,
and they have done anincredible job of building a
culture.
That is not work, right.
And so I told my team, like,hey, every Wednesday morning,

(29:30):
every other Wednesday, I havetherapy from nine to 10.
It is blocked on my calendar.
I can't do check-ins, right, Iwill never miss that session,
right?
So that then allowed my team tobe like hey, shay, my therapy
is on Thursday at two.
Can we not do team meetings atthat time?
No problem, right, like.
But it was part of the like hey, here's what I'm doing, this is

(29:51):
my thing because I havestruggled with professors, I
have struggled with this andthis and this, and here is how I
set the boundary for myself tobe able to not fall back into.
And I tell them like hey, Ihave a team and I'm going to
stop talking because I thinkit's a little rude.
And when I started this new teamI had a system mechanism.

(30:13):
I'm like here's what our teamis going to do, so I don't care
what other teams do, but on thisteam we don't email after 5.
On this team, we don't emailafter five.
On this team, we don't emailbefore seven.
On this team, we do some typeof hey, how are you feeling?
Checking question at every inevery check-in.

(30:35):
So everybody's one-on-one.
There is a oh, how are youentering this space?
To the that, and we have likeunlimited pto.
So like to the point where Ihave told my senior manager,
like you're logging off rightnow, all right, and I'll see you
tomorrow.
You're done for for the day Ihad a woman text me to tell me

(30:56):
like hey, my grandmother took areally bad fall, broke someone's
.
You're out for the rest of theweek.
Go ahead and log off.
I'm going to let everybody elseknow and we're done, but there
is not a hey.
Is it okay, shay, if I no, it ismy job as their manager to
protect them when they cannotprotect themselves.
It is to push them to a placewhere they can recognize I

(31:18):
actually do need to prioritizeme, but it came from just making
it part of the way that Imanage people, the way that I
coach people.
As opposed to asking forpermission, I don't.
I'd rather ask for forgivenessand I'd rather HR call me in and
be like hey, shay, you can't dothat.
Guess what?
Ain't nobody called me in?
Ain't nobody said, shay, youcan't do that.
Because it's about I just haveto do what is necessary for my

(31:43):
team, because I know what theirstruggles are and they've seen
me develop over time into like,oh, that's why Shay does this,
so I'm going to do that.
That's how I I hope thatanswers your question like how I
got to a place of.
It's just part of who I am.

Jennifer's always said that.
Well, that's my forgivenesslater.

Let's just get the shit done no offense, like
I'm gonna apply for whateverposition Shay has.
Be part of that culture.
That's the group I want to be apart of, you just said you
didn't want to take on any morejobs.

It's a real good culture, y'all, it's a real
good culture.

We're getting ready to do three weeks
off for hibernation or for thewinter, like I said, unlimited
PTA.

It's wonderful, it's a privilege to be part of
the space that you're creating,and that is, I mean, like yeah,
oh my god, that is just like.

So, it's just so so to frame it for everybody
in this room after I left and Ithought I wasn't going to work
again, I went back to work forthis amazing woman, but I was
very transparent with her andtold her like, kind of like
still seem a therapist, like I'mnot all there yet, like I don't

(33:09):
know if I can be there inperson.
Loud noises I still can'thandle it.
The building I'm going to havea panic attack.
It's just not going to work.
That's nice.
I'm hiring you to do thesethings x, y, z.
I want this done and it's verytransparent, very like.
This is what I expect.
This is what's needed now.
Of course, you need to be therefor these things, like show up,

(33:32):
be there and always modeling it.
And then she left and then itwas gone.
The trauma I'm shifting thetrauma of having such an amazing
manager and leader and thensomeone who met well but just
wasn't as aware what that doesto you.
So, thinking about that for allof you, what tools and

(33:54):
practices could you recommend toleaders to actually promote
team mental health in a positiveway?

You know that's a really good question and also
I think that Noelle kind ofstarted to touch on that a
little bit in the chat as wellwith her question.
You know it's the culture ofthe organization that you work
for definitely has a significantimpact in the things that you
are typically able to do right.
You know, not everyorganization is just going to
allow the frontline leaders todo as they please and prioritize

(34:27):
everything aside fromgenerating revenue.
Right.
But I think, as leaders andcreating the culture within your
team, there are certainlythings that you can do right,
having that real open doorpolicy, creating safe spaces for
your team members to come andhave conversations with you and
not just asking them, hey, howare you doing?
But really asking hey, you know, how are you really doing in

(34:50):
this?
I can see that something'sgoing on.
Let's have a conversation aboutit and truly be there to listen
and support.
You know, I think those are thethings that, no matter what
type of organization you're inor at what level you're in in
that organization, that you canchoose to do as that leader.
But then there are a lot moreprogressive organizations out
there and they're becoming moreand more because, quite frankly,

(35:11):
the generation that's cominginto the workforce is demanding
it.
They're not going to continueto work for the dictator style
organizations anymore.
They will quite literally leaveand shut you down.
But it's prioritizing thepeople.
You know, we I think Jennifer,you said it earlier right, just
making sure that everybodyunderstands when they walk
through the doors, they're stilla human, they're not a number,

(35:31):
they're not a robot, they're notjust an ass in the seat trying
to, you know, punch out the nextwidget.
Yes, making widgets is what wedo, but it's being done by
humans, and remembering that isis, I think, the first step to
creating the right culture in anorganization, even if it's not
the general culture of theentire organization.
You can do that for your team.

That brings us to our next question how can
organizations create cultures ofopenness and trust around
mental health?
I think that kind of piggybacksoff of what Nalela was saying
on what if you work in anenvironment where the provide to
others attitude is notsupported not supported.

I mean, this seems like.
I mean, I think like when Ilook at this and correct me if
I'm wrong the provide for othersattitude is not supported.
Is this like a servantleadership, Like we're all like,
completely 100% servantleadership?

Noelle (36:35):
If I may jump in, my thought is that you know, I've
worked in a lot of differentcorporate environments before
and I am 100% a servant leader.
I know that my role as a leaderis first to provide for others.
That is what I do beforeanything else.

(36:58):
To provide for others that iswhat I do before anything else.
I've worked for corporateenvironments where they don't
necessarily feel that that's thecase.
So, even though my style ofleadership is to provide for my
team, in that role, to give tothem that I am there to provide
for them, to develop them, tohelp them to grow, to help them

(37:19):
to succeed, the largerorganization is more about the
numbers, or the productivity, orthe efficiency, or the XYZ
revenue that we're going topresent, where I know that if
you invest in the people, thenthe numbers and the money will
come.
But you know, I know that, as aleader, if I provide for my

(37:43):
people, then the export of thatwill come along.
That's not always the case in acorporate environment.
They don't always see that thepeople, investment comes first
and then the revenue comes after.
So if, as a servant leader, Iknow that this is my style of

(38:05):
leadership and this is what I'mgoing to provide to my people,
but the larger organizationdoesn't necessarily feel that
way.
Feel that way, how do you kindof marry the two in order to

(38:25):
still uphold your integrity andyour core values of who you are
as a leader and still providefor the organization that you're
?

working for?
That's a wonderful question.
It is actually something that Ijust I was on LinkedIn the
other day thinking about, youknow, compromising your, your,
your principles, and what thatdoes.
You know that beingself-betrayal, and so what?
I?
I've not always worked for anorg that was as invested in

(38:53):
people that you know as I workfor now, and so in those
instances, when I was in a placewhere there wasn't as much
investment in the people first,I, as a team leader right Like,
my job was to know as much aboutthe policies and procedures and
rules as possible so that Icould, if I needed to do X.

(39:15):
I knew how to make a case forwhat I was getting ready to do
Right, and it's part of the like, actual forgiveness type of
thing.
But I knew that handbook, rightLike.
I knew exactly what I had at mydisposal to be able to care for
my, you know, for my team.
I think there's and I'm alwaysthinking about these things in a

(39:38):
how can I impact anorganization?
Right, so I would.
If I know that people first ishow I get my team to the
productivity level that theyneed to be at.
Well, I'm gonna make a case forthat.
I'm gonna create a hey, I'mgonna do this for six weeks, and
if the revenue's not where itneeds to be or if the so-and-so

(40:00):
is not where it needs to be,then I'll do it your way.
But I want to make a case thatif I care for my team and if I
invest in them in these ways, Iam going to outperform, whatever
the metric is that you intendfor me, and I think that has
been a way for me to do what Ineeded to do right, because my

(40:22):
team is always performing right,like my team is always doing
exceptionally what they need todo, and it is because I trust
the people that I hired to dothe job that I hired them to do,
and I recognize who they are aspeople and, in that same way,

(40:43):
try to encourage theorganization to rethink about
the culture.
Here are the results that I wasable to produce with this
culture.
How can we make that somethingfor the whole organization right
, or for everybody?
Because I've been able toproduce X, y and Z, and so I

(41:06):
think having data really helpswith that.
You can say, hey, my team did Xand I allowed them to work from
home once a week, you know, orwhatever it is right.
I think it can help with some ofthat, but you are having to
work within the confines of thesystem that you're in and if you
get to a point where it is notaligned with your core value,

(41:28):
then the hard thing is going tobe.
It's time for you to go andrecognize that, as much as it
hurts to leave the team, youhave to be aligned to your core
value.
I hated I've always hatedleaving a team, but I have to be
where I am aligned with myprinciples.

(41:50):
Otherwise, I am continuouslybetraying myself and I am not
going to be my best self and notprioritizing my mental health
when I am at odds with who I amas a person oh my gosh, I know
right.

I was just like , like, like I could not agree
more with that on every singlelevel.
Like, what is your North star?
What are you following?
What does that look like?
Oh my God, I mean.
Yes, that is exactly what thiswork is about.

(42:30):
It's about, like, aligning your, your passion and your values
to the work that you're doing,and when that doesn't like, when
that doesn't align like, itmakes it hard to show up every
single day well, I mean, I thinkit sounds like you guys have

(42:50):
already chosen the theme for theQ&A but, I just kind of want to
check.

Check it.
Chae, can you put poll threeTechnically, which topic are you
guys most interested in?
I mean, I kind of alreadyhearing it, but A practicing
personal wellness, supportingteam wellness.
C breaking stigmas inleadership.
Or D cultivating organizationalchange.

(43:15):
And then, based off of that,panelists.
I'll let you guys take in thelast five to six minutes before
we wrap up with key insights andtake it away.
Shay's going to find a way tolike wrap it all up and say like
we break the stigmas by going.
Bernie, we haven't heard fromyou in a little bit.

(43:38):
Why don't you take this one offfirst and tell me which topic
you're thinking or what you kindof?

Well, let's see .
You know, I think that B seemsto have the most answers there,
so I think we'll kind of startthere.
And supporting team wellness.
You know, obviously I touchedon a couple of things earlier
creating safe spaces andmodeling behaviors.
Obviously, I touched on acouple of things earlier
creating safe spaces andmodeling behaviors, I think.

(44:08):
You know, organizationallyspeaking, obviously, the more
resources that can be providedand made available for people to
be able to leverage and forleaders to be able to talk about
, better I think you've got tonormalize having those
conversations with people sothat they feel more comfortable
and confident with you as aleader, both to have that
conversation, but also thatyou're going to keep it
confidential, right, becausethere's nothing worse than
confiding in someone and thenhaving them share what would be
your dirty laundry out witheveryone, right?
That is not going to create asafe environment.

(44:30):
Or, as Jennifer was sayingearlier, right, create that
trust that you need to havewithin your team and your
organization earlier.
Right, create that trust thatyou need to have within your
team and your organization.
But I think that there's also acase to be made for, as Dr Shea
was trying to say reallyeloquently, making a case for
return on investment forinvesting in the people right.
There is ways to showadditional, increased

(44:52):
productivity as a result ofbeing that servant leader and
coaching and mentoring and doingall of the things to support
your people.
I think it's super important tomodel those behaviors, have
those conversations, createthose safe spaces and to be able
to show the metrics behind whatyou're doing, because there's
not a CEO or CFO or COO outthere where, if you can show

(45:13):
them return on investmentbecause of the behaviors that
you are putting in place, theywon't fight those changes.

I love that Stephanie kind of put in the
chat right now that herorganization does what Dr
Chambers recommended with thetwo by twos and that sort, but
that sometimes it's not reallydone with intentionality.
What would you recommend tosomebody, then, guys, who is not
quite the person at the verytop of the organization but
still leading and notnecessarily able to take this

(45:41):
sort of feedback because it'snot done with consistency across
the board?

I think, depending on where you are in
the org chart right around that.
So one of the things that Isometimes will do is, you know,
go to someone or my manager orwhomever, and ask like, hey, for
this particular expectation,what are we trying to solve?

(46:07):
What problem are we trying tosolve?
And trying to get to the rootof why do we want to do two by
twos?
We do them every month.
Why do we want to do two bytwos every month?
What is the purpose?
What does it serve?
And getting them to tell methis is why we do X.
Okay, we think that monthly isthe right cadence, because right

(46:27):
now, or we don't really or thisis me talking right we don't
really do it monthly, but maybesometimes it's happening every
once in a while.
So we need to potentiallyrethink about when we expect
this to happen, because I wantto make sure that I'm aligned
with the organization around twoby two, or you know, whatever

(46:49):
this thing is, stephanie.
And so like that's, that's whatI, that's how I would present
that.
It's like if you recognize thatthis is the thing that your org
cares about, but we're notreally doing it with fidelity.
It is asking questions thatprompt leadership to think about
.
Oh well, maybe we do need torethink this.

(47:09):
Maybe two by two should bequarterly, maybe it should be
every other month, but or thisis not something we want to do.
But I think you all bringing itto them and saying like, hey,
can you help us understand, helpme understand why?
And even trigger for them LikeOoh, we need to be doing this a
little bit better.
How can we recenter on thisthing?

I feel like if you were literally just giving
a sales presentation, you wouldbe taking this through NAPQ and
like how you would be using theclient or the audience's
emotions to answer their ownquestions and literally coach
themselves to what they need todo.
And that's cool so you can putyour own morals, principles,

(48:02):
thoughts into it, but thenactually be able to ask those
questions of curiosity on like,hmm well, I wonder how could we
actually make that happen, or isthis actually necessary?
Jennifer's really good aboutwhen she doesn't like something
she doesn't.

I wonder, how that would look, just a mirror,
just a mirror back to you, andI'm going to ask you to like do
that?
I mean, I mean it is one ofthose things.
I mean it's like a perfectthing, like there's so much work
to be done in reflection andyou just giving people the time
to reflect and asking themprompt questions that are like

(48:36):
asking them to reflect abouttheir practice, and there's no
judgment.
It's just like here's themirror, what did you see?
I'm here to tell you what yousaw.
It's the mirror, what did yousee?
And so, yeah, I mean like, yeah, there's a lot that lot that
goes into leadership and teamdevelopment and such in this

(48:56):
space.
And yeah, I mean, we're allhumans.
We're just trying to like,trying to figure it all out, and
my biggest thing will alwaysjust be like, just see humans
first and like if you see humansfirst, then everything else can
kind of flow from there.

So I love it.
Well for me.
I'm going to wrap up foreverybody and saying that mental
wellness is a strength thatdevelops as that skill gets
better with time, because it'snot something that we have from
the very beginning.
About breaking those stigmas,but fostering openness and being
vulnerable enough to model itso that everybody else around

(49:39):
you can thrive.
Any other tips, guys, before we?

wrap this up, I know I think the only thing is
like to be as a leader, to bethe more vulnerable that you can
be creates a atmosphere forothers to contribute to that
vulnerability and creating anemotional climate where others
can succeed as well.
So don't be, afraid to lean in.

I'll add, in the way you said, pouring into
that bank account, kind of theway Shay's saying here, checking
in with your teammates just aminute.
I think that's something,honestly, even you three have
still replicated, like with me,and that's why I've invited you
into this space.
Like all of you are super busyand it's still just like hi,
melissa, how are you for likefive minutes somewhere within a

(50:24):
month or something, and you'restill making time for it and
that matters.
So I appreciate that from youguys.
Thank you so much for helpingme prioritize my mental wellness
through my leadership journeyand thank you everybody for
joining us this evening.
I hope it was beneficial fory'all and it created a safe
space with some tips that wereactually able to be applied
somewhere.
I hope to see this actuallyhere and that you guys are

(50:46):
telling us that, yes, I actuallywas able to do some of those
things.
Noelle, I would love to hearthat from Bernie saying like,
hey, she said that the steps areworking and such.
I don't know, dr Chambers, it'dbe great to be like hey, she
said that the steps are workingand such, I don't know, dr
Chambers, it'd be great to belike I actually went and applied
it or I don't know, somethinglike that.

Yeah, we need to have an aftermath
conversation.

Yes, we'll have to figure out around this.
Thank you, guys, so much forjoining us.
Y'all have an amazing evening.
We'll see you next time.
Thank you for tuning in toStructuring Chaotic Mind minds.
If today's episode resonatedwith you, don't forget to
subscribe, share and leave areview.
Remember the key to success isnot avoiding chaos, but learning

(51:26):
how to structure it.
Stay inspired, keep growing andjoin me next time as we
continue to transform challengesinto opportunities.
Until then, take care and keepstructuring your chaotic mind.

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