August 9, 2025 • 28 mins
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In the previous conversation with Carrie Kurtz, Director of Reentry Services at Reentry Synergy, we explored the challenges of returning to society after incarceration and the critical role of coordinated support. From stable housing and fair employment to trauma-informed care and language that restores dignity, Carrie reminded us that true reentry success comes from collaboration, compassion, and hope. Her belief that “I will hold out hope until these individuals can hold out hope for th Thank you for tuning into the Struggle2Success Podcast!
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This episode was hosted by Sterling Brown
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Carrie Kurtz (00:00):
Some people think well, I don't have the time to
be involved.
But pointing out to them thatyou don't have the time not to
be involved, if you have acriminal record, you have
additional barriers.
Re-entry Synergy means doingtogether.
So I've seen where doingtogether makes a greater impact.
Sterling (00:18):
Hello, Wonderful People.
What you just heard were a fewsoundbites from my interview
with Carrie Kurtz.
Heard were a few soundbitesfrom my interview with Carrie
Kurtz.
Carrie is the Director ofReentry Services at Re-entry
Synergy, where she leads thefight for real second chances
for those returning home afterincarceration.
Before that, she served as theDirector of Lancaster County
Reentry Coalition, building afull continuum of care, guiding
(00:41):
people from incarceration tostable housing, employment and
community support.
Her foundation in this workcomes from over a decade at
Water Street Mission, where sheserved as the director of
residential and shelter services, counselor and program leader,
helping some of the mostvulnerable in her community
(01:02):
regain dignity and hope.
Helping some of the mostvulnerable in her community
regain dignity and hope.
Carrie's leadership extendsbeyond her job title.
She also serves on multiplepanels, task force and advisory
boards across Lancaster County.
She lives by one powerful truthI will hold out hope until
these individuals can hold outhope for themselves.
In our conversation we dive intowhat it truly means to come
(01:25):
home after prison, to facejudgment, rejection and the
uphill battle of rebuilding alife.
We talk about Ban the Box tothe Justice.
Bridge Housing Program carriesproof that change is possible
when someone stands in yourcorner.
Don't just listen.
Share this episode.
Post it.
Someone stands in your corner.
Don't just listen.
Share this episode.
Post it.
Send it to someone who needs tohear it.
(01:47):
This isn't just a conversation,it's the spark of change.
Let's go.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
If you have ever been told by someone that you're not
capable of attaining success,if you have made mistakes or
lived in an underprivilegedneighborhood, then this podcast
is for you.
You are now locked in toStruggle2 Success.
Struggle2 Success aims toinspire individuals to navigate
life's challenges with courage,fortitude and unwavering
(02:12):
determination.
So if you're in your carjogging or somewhere else trying
to find the calm in the storm,then join Struggle2 Success
airing every other Saturday.
Remember life is trials.
Stay focused.
Sterling (02:30):
Who was Carrie before Re-entry Center?
Carrie Kurtz (02:33):
Carrie worked with individuals who've been
involved in the criminal legalsystem, as well as people
experiencing homelessness, andmany of them also involved in
the criminal legal system.
So people with mental health,substance use and I've just seen
the cycle where people cycle inand out of that struggle
(02:55):
without really being able tohave the opportunity to make a
move forward.
Sterling (03:00):
You dedicated a great amount of work.
I think it was the Water StreetMission.
Carrie Kurtz (03:05):
Yes.
Was that a part of going intoreentry synergy?
Was that how you evolved towhere you are today?
And shelter programs createthem and you just see people
(03:26):
that need hope.
And what we saw is, when youbring the pieces together, like
the other providers that havethe services that one person
can't offer, we're creating anopportunity for them, as well as
social capital, because they'reseeing that people believe in
them and people are there tohelp them with to get to a
(03:50):
different place.
I always say, from striving tothriving, okay, and that's what?
Yep, and that's why we need umto get people working together,
and I saw it work there and myexperience is that's the only
way we really give people anopportunity to succeed and
thrive is when we are committedto do the work together.
Sterling (04:12):
Now, the individuals that would come through the
doors of the Water StreetMission did a vast amount of
them have recidivism issues,inclusive of homelessness, and
mental illness.
Carrie Kurtz (04:31):
Yes, yeah, it goes .
I believe in individual kind ofassessments.
You would say so.
Each person has an individualplan that meets their individual
needs.
You can't do aone-size-fits-all solution.
So we partnered with providersfor mental health, partnered
with people who providesubstance use services,
definitely with the barriers forhousing.
We know that if you have acriminal record, you have
(04:55):
additional barriers than thosethat have not have that.
So we're working to addressthose.
Working with probation andparole, working with street
outreach.
A lot of our work was withstreet outreach, because these
are people that are not inshelter but continue to cycle
through due to their mentalhealth, due to their substance
(05:18):
use.
Sterling (05:19):
While incarcerated the ability to have medication but
then when?
They come out, it becomes anissue that they can't get that
same medication.
Carrie Kurtz (05:29):
That's exactly it, I always would say.
People will stabilize whilethey're incarcerated, and if
they do not leave for stable andsafe housing, then they
typically fall back into whatthey knew.
I worked with a gentleman whowas diagnosed with paranoid
schizophrenia, could be stablewhile in treatment or
(05:50):
incarcerated, but then when heleft and he didn't have stable
housing, he would forget to goget his Vivitrol shot.
I mean, you don't even knowwhat day it is, so trying to
manage meds, appointments andall that just doesn't happen.
You're trying to survive, somedication is one of the least
of your things.
(06:11):
Plus, medication gets stolen onthe street.
You can have your medicationand if you don't have it on you
at all times, it'll likelydisappear and then you can't get
a refill.
Sterling (06:21):
You mentioned the word stakeholders.
Carrie Kurtz (06:24):
Who's at stake for the work that we're?
Sterling (06:26):
doing so.
There's a parallelism.
This is the same thing.
Yes.
Carrie Kurtz (06:28):
Yeah, exactly, yep .
Sterling (06:30):
When we speak about re-entry synergy, how do you
envision the mission?
Carrie Kurtz (06:36):
It's really about emphasizing and the importance
of collaboration andcoordination.
A lot of people will say thatwe collaborate but we're not
coordinating.
And there's stakeholdersinvolved, which is not just the
individual and the community andeverybody, but it's family
members, it's parents, it'sspouses, it's children.
(06:59):
Everybody has a stake in this.
So how do we coordinate withall the stakeholders to provide
the best opportunity for success?
So it's really working withagencies to build that
collaboration and coordination,because we tend to be very much
I'm going to use the word siloedin our own mission.
(07:21):
Siloed in our own mission, butrecognizing that our missions do
intersect, and focusing andemphasizing that intersection
and how each one of us is a partof a bigger goal that we all
are actually aiming for.
Sterling (07:35):
Can you give us some of the programs that?
Intersect with reentry synergyto accomplish the goals.
Carrie Kurtz (07:43):
Right.
Well, I currently work with thePA Reentry Council, which is
through the Attorney General'sOffice, so we have access to the
Department of Health, theDepartment of Corrections, but
also locally, we work with theDrug and Alcohol Commission,
behavioral health providers,substance use providers,
(08:04):
probation, parole, bailadministration, the jail, the
prisons.
Families, like families are,really there's not a lot of
services for families, tosupport families, but we really
are trying to build that so thatwe have a holistic approach
with all the stakeholdersinvolved.
(08:25):
So it's reaching out, it'smaking a connection, pointing
out that, hey, we are reallyworking together and we have a
common cause that we're allaiming for.
Some people think, well, Idon't have the time to be
involved.
But pointing out to them thatyou don't have the time not to
be involved because sometimes ittakes a little extra effort at
(08:47):
the beginning, but the payoff,as people say, the return on
investment, is significantbecause we're, instead of trying
to do everything, we're doingit together, collaboratively.
Sterling (08:58):
Issues like housing and employment and mental health
.
How do they intersect duringreentry and how does reentry
synergy help individuals makethat connection?
Carrie Kurtz (09:11):
Housing is a key need.
If you look at Maslow'shierarchy of need, that's not
outdated, by the way.
It's still very much effective,very much effective.
And if you do not have stable,safe housing, when you walk at
the moment, you walk out thatdoor as well as being able to
maintain it, the risk toemployment, the risk to your
(09:34):
mental health, your substanceuse, even family reunification
going and getting reincarcerated.
So, taking care of your mentalhealth, you need to know where
you're going to sleep tonight,right?
You need to know that you havea safe place to be To have
employment.
You need to know you can get ashower.
You need to know that you canhave a place to go to and eat
(09:57):
and a safe place to be.
Some people may say it's okay.
Well, if you're couch surfingor if you're in a shelter, which
think you have to have, um,like employment that allows you
to pay your bills, so you know,you ha you.
(10:34):
You can't just take anythingand sometimes people are forced
to do that because you need themoney to pay the rent but you
don't have any place to say howdo we get stable housing?
So that was one of the thingsI've done.
I'm actually chair of the PARancho Council Housing
(10:56):
Subcommittee, working to educatethem on fair housing, educate
landlords, educate providers onfair housing, and our goal is to
see that every person leavesincarceration with safe, stable
housing and is able to maintainit, because you need to maintain
(11:16):
it, so sometimes you needtransitional housing when you
leave transitional supportivehousing Is this typically what
they call halfway house.
No, it can be different.
Sterling (11:28):
I really want to point that out there because I know
in the justice system there is acomponent where individuals say
it's a halfway house.
But this is not.
Carrie Kurtz (11:37):
No, this is not.
This is because halfway housestypically don't provide the
wraparound support.
So we're saying thattransitional housing.
There's actually a program inUnion County called Justice
Bridge Housing.
So it's providing safe, stablehousing with the wraparound
services that are individualizedfor that person.
So it's continuing to helppeople stabilize because, just
(12:00):
as a gentleman shared with me,the moment you walk out the door
it's like walking from airconditioning to extreme heat and
takes your breath away.
You just can't think straight.
So if you have safe, stablehousing, you're able to not have
to worry about where will Isleep?
Where will I get something toeat?
Will I be safe tonight?
Sterling (12:20):
What policy changes or legal reforms would make the
most difference for a returningcitizen?
Carrie Kurtz (12:26):
Well, we talk about ban the box with
employment.
Sterling (12:28):
Do you still see that?
Do you see residual effects?
Carrie Kurtz (12:33):
Oh, for sure, For sure, I mean, you can get away
with it by just seeing that orhearing that someone has been
involved in the criminal legalsystem and you could find
someone you think is better.
You know stuff is hidden.
Let's be real.
Right, you can have landlordsthat will intentionally not pick
(12:54):
someone with a criminal recordthough they would never say it
because then you would be introuble, right, but the reality
is, especially with landlords,you have a pocket of people to
pull from that are ready to rentto you, right, or rent from you
, and so you have theopportunity to pick from the
(13:15):
cream of the crop, so to speak.
They're not recognizing thatwhen you rent an individual that
has a criminal record, thisperson has more support, more
accountability, more drive to dosomething with their lives.
I had one woman say to me wejust need the opportunity
because we're going to workharder.
Statistics say that people witha criminal record that gain
employment, they have a better.
Women say to me we just needthe opportunity because we're
going to work harder.
Statistics say that people witha criminal record that gain
(13:38):
employment, they have a betterattendance record, a better work
record in history, because theyknow they have something to
prove.
Sterling (13:47):
I think James Arvery said that, to gratitude.
Carrie Kurtz (13:50):
Yes, exactly, exactly.
Yeah, you know that and you'reso thankful for it.
So you put effort and I thinksometimes, when you hire someone
or rent to someone, you don'tknow what you're getting right
really, but when you rent orhire someone with a criminal
record, you know what you'regetting because definitely a
(14:13):
different take on it it is.
Sterling (14:15):
I didn't even think about it like that.
Carrie Kurtz (14:16):
That is definitely a different spin on it and you
know that the person has thesupport to make it.
Sterling (14:22):
Share a story that you wish would have went better.
Carrie Kurtz (14:26):
I think of and make it emotional.
I think of an individual that Iworked with at Water Street
that was in and out of ourshelter, in and out of the
criminal legal system andhomeless, and he overdosed and
died and I still think about him.
But you know, I have to say heknew I cared, because he could
(14:50):
come in and sit across from meand we could have a conversation
and I would listen.
And so I have to tell myselfthat he knew that he had value,
even though he was so caught upin the struggle of his addiction
.
But yes, I wish that had.
I wish he had not overdosed,obviously.
Sterling (15:11):
I think the fact that he kept trying.
Yes, obviously I think the factthat he kept trying, yes, huge.
I think that's what we and thisis that struggle to success
that even he had himself.
Yes, I'm fighting, he wasfighting, I want to continue to
fight.
Yes, and I'm going to keepcoming back.
Yes, and he tried.
Carrie Kurtz (15:29):
Yes, he did, he did and he just.
I adored him.
He was funny, fine, he had alot going for him, but the
addiction just had him.
But you're right, he would comeback in and it would allow us
opportunities to haveconversation.
Sterling (15:49):
And that's what your services are for.
Carrie Kurtz (15:51):
Oh yeah, it's relational.
I mean, that's really key.
We don't do this work becausewe get excited or feel like
there's a pat on the back.
It's because we care aboutpeople and we see hope.
Like I will tell people, I willhold on to hope until you can
hold on to it yourself, becauseI'm going to hope for you, I'm
(16:13):
going to believe for somethingbetter, because I know that
there's something better.
I hate, you know, if we gethung up sometimes on the word
barriers and I say everything'san opportunity.
It really is an opportunity forus to do something better.
So, as we're buildingrelationships, which can take a
long time for people in thecriminal legal system, they've
been let down.
You know, they've let peopledown.
(16:35):
It's just a big cycle, but ittakes a while to build
relationship and trust.
Sterling (16:40):
One of my big things.
I'm keen on respect the process.
Carrie Kurtz (16:43):
Yes, oh, yeah.
Sterling (16:44):
Respect the process.
Carrie Kurtz (16:45):
So easy to throw our hands in the air and say, ah
, this isn't worth it.
But I don't believe there's oneperson that's not worth
fighting for and holding on tothat hope.
Sterling (16:56):
How do you ensure that formerly incarcerated
individuals are not only heard,but empowered?
Carrie Kurtz (17:03):
People with lived experience have a seat at the
table.
I like to have multiple seatsat the table.
I like to say that, so the morepeople with lived experience,
the better.
That sits around the table,because people with lived
experience are the experts.
Sits around the table becausepeople with lived experience are
the experts.
You know what worked, whatdidn't work, you know what you
need, you know the struggles,you know the reality of it, and
(17:27):
it's easy for people like Iwould always say I don't want to
not interact with people thatare living the experience,
because I believe it's not lived, it's living, because the
system still says you're livingit, right, right, and that we
need to build that opportunityfor them to do that.
(17:49):
I could be a head behind a deskmaking decisions right For
people.
They're impacting their livesright Without their voice.
I think that's so wrong.
Part of the struggle that we'vehad, though, is people that are
living the experience they don'ttrust, so, without trusting,
sometimes they're hesitant togive their voice to it, so it
(18:12):
takes some time to build thatrelationship where they will
trust you to share.
Some people are just rightthere and just will put it all
out there, right, yeah, and somepeople they're not quite there
yet, but that's okay.
You continue to foster thatrelationship, build that
relationship, let them see theconsistency and the genuineness
(18:33):
of what you're doing and littleby little, it can come out.
And that's what we need.
We can't do this work and weshould not do this work without
people living the experience atthe table.
Sterling (18:45):
What does a trauma responsive re-entry system look
like?
Carrie Kurtz (18:49):
People can say well, I'm trauma, informed, care
, trained, who cares?
That's what I say, Because ifyou can't apply it to your work,
it doesn't matter.
It's just knowledge, becauseknowledge doesn't necessarily
always change things right.
You could know something andnot do it.
So and I've seen it I've seenpeople and organizations that
(19:11):
are trauma trained but you don'tsee the responsiveness of it.
So being responsive means thatyou recognize even the potential
of someone in front of youhaving experienced trauma.
If you think about the people wework with in the criminal legal
system, they say 90% and Iwould say might be higher have
(19:33):
experienced trauma.
The ACEs study with childhoodabuse, childhood experiences,
they usually score very, veryhigh.
So you have to think about thepeople you're called to care for
and serve and recognize thatthey're coming with trauma.
(19:53):
So how to respond to it is thetypical what space okay, space
language is key.
We do a lot of work withstatewide, with the groups I'm
connected with, as well as whenI was here locally.
Language don't use sex offenderokay.
With the groups I'm connectedwith, as well as when I was here
(20:15):
locally.
Language Don't use sex offenderokay.
Say, someone who committed asexual offense.
Don't use felon, you know.
So language is really key.
Sterling (20:24):
The verbiage yeah, the gravity.
Carrie Kurtz (20:28):
Yes.
Sterling (20:28):
I see sticks and stones and they break my bones,
but names will never hurt me.
Carrie Kurtz (20:31):
That's not, yeah, it's not, but they do.
Sterling (20:33):
And the verbiage alone needs to be overhauled Exactly.
How we re-approach a personwho's been through a traumatic
experience.
Carrie Kurtz (20:42):
Oh, exactly, exactly, and I think the
language is really key.
So, and also recognizing thatbehaviors like someone's
behavior doesn't necessarilymean that they're misbehaving.
It could be a response to atrauma trigger and responding
See, they're acting out.
Yeah, they're acting out, yep.
(21:02):
So then you know, maybe it tookthem back to a time when, like
I just said this to someone theother day, she grew up in a very
abusive home and some of thebehavior started up again and I
said is this triggering you?
And she said yes, and so herresponses are withdraw.
Some other people's are to lashout, think, fight, flight,
(21:24):
freeze, right, and so, dependingon what you used to do to deal
with it, I can give anotherexample.
I was a young woman Well, notyoung, she was probably my age.
I met her while she wasincarcerated, right, and she was
a pistol in there.
Let me tell you she was.
You know you could tell she wasin survival mode in there, Like
(21:45):
she had to be the class clowntrying to get away with things
that you know she shouldn't be,whatever.
And you know you kind of gettaken back and go what is she
doing?
Right, and you can get caughtup in the behavior of it, right,
but you have to step back andsay why is she doing that?
So, thinking about like beinghyper vigilant in the situations
(22:08):
that you're in and thebehaviors are really survival.
I met with the same woman aftershe was released from
incarceration and she was acompletely different person.
She was calm, she was hungryfor help, she was receptive and
(22:29):
not like defensive and trying tobe funny, and so you could
recognize the difference ofsurvival while incarcerated and
the behaviors of that, and thenout and then really not having
to do that anymore.
So she could be more open, likethat's just it.
If people are not reacting totheir trauma, they're more
(22:50):
responsive to help, because youknow when you're reacting to
your trauma you're just you'redoing behaviors you wouldn't
probably normally do if itwasn't for the trigger.
Sterling (23:01):
And that they have to keep up with this persona.
Yes, yes, we have to break downthose layers.
And how do we do that if, maybe, they have just been released?
Or you know how do we do that?
Carrie Kurtz (23:21):
A big thing is fostering a safe environment
Because, like for this woman,she was in a group of younger
women, so here she's older thanthe majority of them, probably
the age of maybe their mom, andshe felt like she had something
to prove and it was survival inthere, Like choices.
(23:41):
What do I need to do to survivethis environment in this time
in here?
When they're out, they're justin a different environment and
more receptive.
So I think, fostering a safeenvironment, eye contact we were
talking.
Eye contact is huge.
Listening, like reallylistening to what they want and
(24:03):
what their concerns are.
Don't go in with preconceivedideas of how I'm going to fix
you right.
Yeah, you need to go in andreally listen because, as they
say, you can't define success injust one sentence.
Each of us has a differentdefinition of it.
But listening, what are yourstruggles, what do you want to
work on?
I used to say when you, I usedto coach some of my staff and
(24:26):
say, when they leave, help themleave with at least one success,
one thing that they'veaccomplished.
So pointing out maybe, hey, youreally are resilient, You've
been able to survive this.
How do we take this and applyit to where you're at.
Tell me one thing you can dowith resilience and people
(24:47):
experiencing homelessness.
You know like you've survived.
You figured out how to eat andstuff like that.
How do you take that creativitynow and put it in a place that
is productive?
So coaching along, that, Ithink, gives them hope.
I think you just have toinstill hope in them.
Sterling (25:05):
Do you think the move towards medication I think it's
methadone and these type ofprograms that individuals are
signing into once they come intointake are being used to their
max capacity to help people, oris it just something that is
(25:26):
going to fade away?
Carrie Kurtz (25:27):
Mm-hmm.
I used to be a skeptic of MAT,medically assisted treatment.
I used to really be the personthat said why would you
substitute one for the other?
But over time I've come toappreciate it and see the
importance of it, because somepeople need that ability to wean
(25:48):
off safely as well as have theopportunity maybe for some
counseling on what's behind theusing.
For example, I remember yearsago my son was in some
counseling and they said themedication gives you a
therapeutic level or the abilityto receive therapy.
(26:09):
So it's a therapeutic level ofmedication.
Mat, as I understand it, is notexpected to be a lifelong
solution.
Right, you wean off of it, butsometimes you need that.
I really believe some peopleneed that opportunity to engage
in that and to receive that.
It's when you walk out the dooris part of the problem.
(26:33):
If it's not continued, then youhave people that fall right
back.
Or if you don't have the rightsupport, that's when people tend
to overdose because they'vebeen weaned off of it and they
go out and try to use what theyused before.
Right, there's a highpercentage of people that can
overdose within the first 48hours of release.
(26:56):
So there's a lot with MAT, butI do think that it's beneficial
for the right people and to havesupport.
I again provide consulting andcoaching, really trying to help
stakeholders come together toserve individuals in an
efficient and effective way andhelp them go from striving to
(27:17):
thriving.
And so you could reach me at myemail, which is carrie.
kurtz60, which is C-A-R-R-I-Eperiod, kurtz K-U-R-T-Z, the
number 60, at gmail.
com.
Sterling (27:32):
Thank you so much, Carrie.
Yeah, thank you.
I'm sure this will not be thelast time you come on our show.
Carrie Kurtz (27:37):
Thank you, thank you, thank you, sterling.
Speaker 3 (27:40):
Thanks for checking out this episode of Struggle2
Success.
To connect with the show, youcan email us at struggle2success
.
p@ gmail.
com.
You can email us atstruggle2success.
p@ gmail.
com.
Make sure you like andsubscribe so that you never miss
an episode.
And remember to lock in righthere other every Saturday.
Remember life is trials, Stayfocused.
Some people think well, I don't have the time to
be involved.
But pointing out to them thatyou don't have the time not to
be involved, if you have acriminal record, you have
additional barriers.
Re-entry Synergy means doingtogether.
So I've seen where doingtogether makes a greater impact.
Sterling (00:18):
Hello, Wonderful People.
What you just heard were a fewsoundbites from my interview
with Carrie Kurtz.
Heard were a few soundbitesfrom my interview with Carrie
Kurtz.
Carrie is the Director ofReentry Services at Re-entry
Synergy, where she leads thefight for real second chances
for those returning home afterincarceration.
Before that, she served as theDirector of Lancaster County
Reentry Coalition, building afull continuum of care, guiding
(00:41):
people from incarceration tostable housing, employment and
community support.
Her foundation in this workcomes from over a decade at
Water Street Mission, where sheserved as the director of
residential and shelter services, counselor and program leader,
helping some of the mostvulnerable in her community
(01:02):
regain dignity and hope.
Helping some of the mostvulnerable in her community
regain dignity and hope.
Carrie's leadership extendsbeyond her job title.
She also serves on multiplepanels, task force and advisory
boards across Lancaster County.
She lives by one powerful truthI will hold out hope until
these individuals can hold outhope for themselves.
In our conversation we dive intowhat it truly means to come
(01:25):
home after prison, to facejudgment, rejection and the
uphill battle of rebuilding alife.
We talk about Ban the Box tothe Justice.
Bridge Housing Program carriesproof that change is possible
when someone stands in yourcorner.
Don't just listen.
Share this episode.
Post it.
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Don't just listen.
Share this episode.
Post it.
Send it to someone who needs tohear it.
(01:47):
This isn't just a conversation,it's the spark of change.
Let's go.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
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lived in an underprivilegedneighborhood, then this podcast
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You are now locked in toStruggle2 Success.
Struggle2 Success aims toinspire individuals to navigate
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(02:12):
determination.
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Sterling (02:30):
Who was Carrie before Re-entry Center?
Carrie Kurtz (02:33):
Carrie worked with individuals who've been
involved in the criminal legalsystem, as well as people
experiencing homelessness, andmany of them also involved in
the criminal legal system.
So people with mental health,substance use and I've just seen
the cycle where people cycle inand out of that struggle
(02:55):
without really being able tohave the opportunity to make a
move forward.
Sterling (03:00):
You dedicated a great amount of work.
I think it was the Water StreetMission.
Carrie Kurtz (03:05):
Yes.
Was that a part of going intoreentry synergy?
Was that how you evolved towhere you are today?
And shelter programs createthem and you just see people
(03:26):
that need hope.
And what we saw is, when youbring the pieces together, like
the other providers that havethe services that one person
can't offer, we're creating anopportunity for them, as well as
social capital, because they'reseeing that people believe in
them and people are there tohelp them with to get to a
(03:50):
different place.
I always say, from striving tothriving, okay, and that's what?
Yep, and that's why we need umto get people working together,
and I saw it work there and myexperience is that's the only
way we really give people anopportunity to succeed and
thrive is when we are committedto do the work together.
Sterling (04:12):
Now, the individuals that would come through the
doors of the Water StreetMission did a vast amount of
them have recidivism issues,inclusive of homelessness, and
mental illness.
Carrie Kurtz (04:31):
Yes, yeah, it goes .
I believe in individual kind ofassessments.
You would say so.
Each person has an individualplan that meets their individual
needs.
You can't do aone-size-fits-all solution.
So we partnered with providersfor mental health, partnered
with people who providesubstance use services,
definitely with the barriers forhousing.
We know that if you have acriminal record, you have
(04:55):
additional barriers than thosethat have not have that.
So we're working to addressthose.
Working with probation andparole, working with street
outreach.
A lot of our work was withstreet outreach, because these
are people that are not inshelter but continue to cycle
through due to their mentalhealth, due to their substance
(05:18):
use.
Sterling (05:19):
While incarcerated the ability to have medication but
then when?
They come out, it becomes anissue that they can't get that
same medication.
Carrie Kurtz (05:29):
That's exactly it, I always would say.
People will stabilize whilethey're incarcerated, and if
they do not leave for stable andsafe housing, then they
typically fall back into whatthey knew.
I worked with a gentleman whowas diagnosed with paranoid
schizophrenia, could be stablewhile in treatment or
(05:50):
incarcerated, but then when heleft and he didn't have stable
housing, he would forget to goget his Vivitrol shot.
I mean, you don't even knowwhat day it is, so trying to
manage meds, appointments andall that just doesn't happen.
You're trying to survive, somedication is one of the least
of your things.
(06:11):
Plus, medication gets stolen onthe street.
You can have your medicationand if you don't have it on you
at all times, it'll likelydisappear and then you can't get
a refill.
Sterling (06:21):
You mentioned the word stakeholders.
Carrie Kurtz (06:24):
Who's at stake for the work that we're?
Sterling (06:26):
doing so.
There's a parallelism.
This is the same thing.
Yes.
Carrie Kurtz (06:28):
Yeah, exactly, yep .
Sterling (06:30):
When we speak about re-entry synergy, how do you
envision the mission?
Carrie Kurtz (06:36):
It's really about emphasizing and the importance
of collaboration andcoordination.
A lot of people will say thatwe collaborate but we're not
coordinating.
And there's stakeholdersinvolved, which is not just the
individual and the community andeverybody, but it's family
members, it's parents, it'sspouses, it's children.
(06:59):
Everybody has a stake in this.
So how do we coordinate withall the stakeholders to provide
the best opportunity for success?
So it's really working withagencies to build that
collaboration and coordination,because we tend to be very much
I'm going to use the word siloedin our own mission.
(07:21):
Siloed in our own mission, butrecognizing that our missions do
intersect, and focusing andemphasizing that intersection
and how each one of us is a partof a bigger goal that we all
are actually aiming for.
Sterling (07:35):
Can you give us some of the programs that?
Intersect with reentry synergyto accomplish the goals.
Carrie Kurtz (07:43):
Right.
Well, I currently work with thePA Reentry Council, which is
through the Attorney General'sOffice, so we have access to the
Department of Health, theDepartment of Corrections, but
also locally, we work with theDrug and Alcohol Commission,
behavioral health providers,substance use providers,
(08:04):
probation, parole, bailadministration, the jail, the
prisons.
Families, like families are,really there's not a lot of
services for families, tosupport families, but we really
are trying to build that so thatwe have a holistic approach
with all the stakeholdersinvolved.
(08:25):
So it's reaching out, it'smaking a connection, pointing
out that, hey, we are reallyworking together and we have a
common cause that we're allaiming for.
Some people think, well, Idon't have the time to be
involved.
But pointing out to them thatyou don't have the time not to
be involved because sometimes ittakes a little extra effort at
(08:47):
the beginning, but the payoff,as people say, the return on
investment, is significantbecause we're, instead of trying
to do everything, we're doingit together, collaboratively.
Sterling (08:58):
Issues like housing and employment and mental health
.
How do they intersect duringreentry and how does reentry
synergy help individuals makethat connection?
Carrie Kurtz (09:11):
Housing is a key need.
If you look at Maslow'shierarchy of need, that's not
outdated, by the way.
It's still very much effective,very much effective.
And if you do not have stable,safe housing, when you walk at
the moment, you walk out thatdoor as well as being able to
maintain it, the risk toemployment, the risk to your
(09:34):
mental health, your substanceuse, even family reunification
going and getting reincarcerated.
So, taking care of your mentalhealth, you need to know where
you're going to sleep tonight,right?
You need to know that you havea safe place to be To have
employment.
You need to know you can get ashower.
You need to know that you canhave a place to go to and eat
(09:57):
and a safe place to be.
Some people may say it's okay.
Well, if you're couch surfingor if you're in a shelter, which
think you have to have, um,like employment that allows you
to pay your bills, so you know,you ha you.
(10:34):
You can't just take anythingand sometimes people are forced
to do that because you need themoney to pay the rent but you
don't have any place to say howdo we get stable housing?
So that was one of the thingsI've done.
I'm actually chair of the PARancho Council Housing
(10:56):
Subcommittee, working to educatethem on fair housing, educate
landlords, educate providers onfair housing, and our goal is to
see that every person leavesincarceration with safe, stable
housing and is able to maintainit, because you need to maintain
(11:16):
it, so sometimes you needtransitional housing when you
leave transitional supportivehousing Is this typically what
they call halfway house.
No, it can be different.
Sterling (11:28):
I really want to point that out there because I know
in the justice system there is acomponent where individuals say
it's a halfway house.
But this is not.
Carrie Kurtz (11:37):
No, this is not.
This is because halfway housestypically don't provide the
wraparound support.
So we're saying thattransitional housing.
There's actually a program inUnion County called Justice
Bridge Housing.
So it's providing safe, stablehousing with the wraparound
services that are individualizedfor that person.
So it's continuing to helppeople stabilize because, just
(12:00):
as a gentleman shared with me,the moment you walk out the door
it's like walking from airconditioning to extreme heat and
takes your breath away.
You just can't think straight.
So if you have safe, stablehousing, you're able to not have
to worry about where will Isleep?
Where will I get something toeat?
Will I be safe tonight?
Sterling (12:20):
What policy changes or legal reforms would make the
most difference for a returningcitizen?
Carrie Kurtz (12:26):
Well, we talk about ban the box with
employment.
Sterling (12:28):
Do you still see that?
Do you see residual effects?
Carrie Kurtz (12:33):
Oh, for sure, For sure, I mean, you can get away
with it by just seeing that orhearing that someone has been
involved in the criminal legalsystem and you could find
someone you think is better.
You know stuff is hidden.
Let's be real.
Right, you can have landlordsthat will intentionally not pick
(12:54):
someone with a criminal recordthough they would never say it
because then you would be introuble, right, but the reality
is, especially with landlords,you have a pocket of people to
pull from that are ready to rentto you, right, or rent from you
, and so you have theopportunity to pick from the
(13:15):
cream of the crop, so to speak.
They're not recognizing thatwhen you rent an individual that
has a criminal record, thisperson has more support, more
accountability, more drive to dosomething with their lives.
I had one woman say to me wejust need the opportunity
because we're going to workharder.
Statistics say that people witha criminal record that gain
employment, they have a better.
Women say to me we just needthe opportunity because we're
going to work harder.
Statistics say that people witha criminal record that gain
(13:38):
employment, they have a betterattendance record, a better work
record in history, because theyknow they have something to
prove.
Sterling (13:47):
I think James Arvery said that, to gratitude.
Carrie Kurtz (13:50):
Yes, exactly, exactly.
Yeah, you know that and you'reso thankful for it.
So you put effort and I thinksometimes, when you hire someone
or rent to someone, you don'tknow what you're getting right
really, but when you rent orhire someone with a criminal
record, you know what you'regetting because definitely a
(14:13):
different take on it it is.
Sterling (14:15):
I didn't even think about it like that.
Carrie Kurtz (14:16):
That is definitely a different spin on it and you
know that the person has thesupport to make it.
Sterling (14:22):
Share a story that you wish would have went better.
Carrie Kurtz (14:26):
I think of and make it emotional.
I think of an individual that Iworked with at Water Street
that was in and out of ourshelter, in and out of the
criminal legal system andhomeless, and he overdosed and
died and I still think about him.
But you know, I have to say heknew I cared, because he could
(14:50):
come in and sit across from meand we could have a conversation
and I would listen.
And so I have to tell myselfthat he knew that he had value,
even though he was so caught upin the struggle of his addiction
.
But yes, I wish that had.
I wish he had not overdosed,obviously.
Sterling (15:11):
I think the fact that he kept trying.
Yes, obviously I think the factthat he kept trying, yes, huge.
I think that's what we and thisis that struggle to success
that even he had himself.
Yes, I'm fighting, he wasfighting, I want to continue to
fight.
Yes, and I'm going to keepcoming back.
Yes, and he tried.
Carrie Kurtz (15:29):
Yes, he did, he did and he just.
I adored him.
He was funny, fine, he had alot going for him, but the
addiction just had him.
But you're right, he would comeback in and it would allow us
opportunities to haveconversation.
Sterling (15:49):
And that's what your services are for.
Carrie Kurtz (15:51):
Oh yeah, it's relational.
I mean, that's really key.
We don't do this work becausewe get excited or feel like
there's a pat on the back.
It's because we care aboutpeople and we see hope.
Like I will tell people, I willhold on to hope until you can
hold on to it yourself, becauseI'm going to hope for you, I'm
(16:13):
going to believe for somethingbetter, because I know that
there's something better.
I hate, you know, if we gethung up sometimes on the word
barriers and I say everything'san opportunity.
It really is an opportunity forus to do something better.
So, as we're buildingrelationships, which can take a
long time for people in thecriminal legal system, they've
been let down.
You know, they've let peopledown.
(16:35):
It's just a big cycle, but ittakes a while to build
relationship and trust.
Sterling (16:40):
One of my big things.
I'm keen on respect the process.
Carrie Kurtz (16:43):
Yes, oh, yeah.
Sterling (16:44):
Respect the process.
Carrie Kurtz (16:45):
So easy to throw our hands in the air and say, ah
, this isn't worth it.
But I don't believe there's oneperson that's not worth
fighting for and holding on tothat hope.
Sterling (16:56):
How do you ensure that formerly incarcerated
individuals are not only heard,but empowered?
Carrie Kurtz (17:03):
People with lived experience have a seat at the
table.
I like to have multiple seatsat the table.
I like to say that, so the morepeople with lived experience,
the better.
That sits around the table,because people with lived
experience are the experts.
Sits around the table becausepeople with lived experience are
the experts.
You know what worked, whatdidn't work, you know what you
need, you know the struggles,you know the reality of it, and
(17:27):
it's easy for people like Iwould always say I don't want to
not interact with people thatare living the experience,
because I believe it's not lived, it's living, because the
system still says you're livingit, right, right, and that we
need to build that opportunityfor them to do that.
(17:49):
I could be a head behind a deskmaking decisions right For
people.
They're impacting their livesright Without their voice.
I think that's so wrong.
Part of the struggle that we'vehad, though, is people that are
living the experience they don'ttrust, so, without trusting,
sometimes they're hesitant togive their voice to it, so it
(18:12):
takes some time to build thatrelationship where they will
trust you to share.
Some people are just rightthere and just will put it all
out there, right, yeah, and somepeople they're not quite there
yet, but that's okay.
You continue to foster thatrelationship, build that
relationship, let them see theconsistency and the genuineness
(18:33):
of what you're doing and littleby little, it can come out.
And that's what we need.
We can't do this work and weshould not do this work without
people living the experience atthe table.
Sterling (18:45):
What does a trauma responsive re-entry system look
like?
Carrie Kurtz (18:49):
People can say well, I'm trauma, informed, care
, trained, who cares?
That's what I say, Because ifyou can't apply it to your work,
it doesn't matter.
It's just knowledge, becauseknowledge doesn't necessarily
always change things right.
You could know something andnot do it.
So and I've seen it I've seenpeople and organizations that
(19:11):
are trauma trained but you don'tsee the responsiveness of it.
So being responsive means thatyou recognize even the potential
of someone in front of youhaving experienced trauma.
If you think about the people wework with in the criminal legal
system, they say 90% and Iwould say might be higher have
(19:33):
experienced trauma.
The ACEs study with childhoodabuse, childhood experiences,
they usually score very, veryhigh.
So you have to think about thepeople you're called to care for
and serve and recognize thatthey're coming with trauma.
(19:53):
So how to respond to it is thetypical what space okay, space
language is key.
We do a lot of work withstatewide, with the groups I'm
connected with, as well as whenI was here locally.
Language don't use sex offenderokay.
With the groups I'm connectedwith, as well as when I was here
(20:15):
locally.
Language Don't use sex offenderokay.
Say, someone who committed asexual offense.
Don't use felon, you know.
So language is really key.
Sterling (20:24):
The verbiage yeah, the gravity.
Carrie Kurtz (20:28):
Yes.
Sterling (20:28):
I see sticks and stones and they break my bones,
but names will never hurt me.
Carrie Kurtz (20:31):
That's not, yeah, it's not, but they do.
Sterling (20:33):
And the verbiage alone needs to be overhauled Exactly.
How we re-approach a personwho's been through a traumatic
experience.
Carrie Kurtz (20:42):
Oh, exactly, exactly, and I think the
language is really key.
So, and also recognizing thatbehaviors like someone's
behavior doesn't necessarilymean that they're misbehaving.
It could be a response to atrauma trigger and responding
See, they're acting out.
Yeah, they're acting out, yep.
(21:02):
So then you know, maybe it tookthem back to a time when, like
I just said this to someone theother day, she grew up in a very
abusive home and some of thebehavior started up again and I
said is this triggering you?
And she said yes, and so herresponses are withdraw.
Some other people's are to lashout, think, fight, flight,
(21:24):
freeze, right, and so, dependingon what you used to do to deal
with it, I can give anotherexample.
I was a young woman Well, notyoung, she was probably my age.
I met her while she wasincarcerated, right, and she was
a pistol in there.
Let me tell you she was.
You know you could tell she wasin survival mode in there, Like
(21:45):
she had to be the class clowntrying to get away with things
that you know she shouldn't be,whatever.
And you know you kind of gettaken back and go what is she
doing?
Right, and you can get caughtup in the behavior of it, right,
but you have to step back andsay why is she doing that?
So, thinking about like beinghyper vigilant in the situations
(22:08):
that you're in and thebehaviors are really survival.
I met with the same woman aftershe was released from
incarceration and she was acompletely different person.
She was calm, she was hungryfor help, she was receptive and
(22:29):
not like defensive and trying tobe funny, and so you could
recognize the difference ofsurvival while incarcerated and
the behaviors of that, and thenout and then really not having
to do that anymore.
So she could be more open, likethat's just it.
If people are not reacting totheir trauma, they're more
(22:50):
responsive to help, because youknow when you're reacting to
your trauma you're just you'redoing behaviors you wouldn't
probably normally do if itwasn't for the trigger.
Sterling (23:01):
And that they have to keep up with this persona.
Yes, yes, we have to break downthose layers.
And how do we do that if, maybe, they have just been released?
Or you know how do we do that?
Carrie Kurtz (23:21):
A big thing is fostering a safe environment
Because, like for this woman,she was in a group of younger
women, so here she's older thanthe majority of them, probably
the age of maybe their mom, andshe felt like she had something
to prove and it was survival inthere, Like choices.
(23:41):
What do I need to do to survivethis environment in this time
in here?
When they're out, they're justin a different environment and
more receptive.
So I think, fostering a safeenvironment, eye contact we were
talking.
Eye contact is huge.
Listening, like reallylistening to what they want and
(24:03):
what their concerns are.
Don't go in with preconceivedideas of how I'm going to fix
you right.
Yeah, you need to go in andreally listen because, as they
say, you can't define success injust one sentence.
Each of us has a differentdefinition of it.
But listening, what are yourstruggles, what do you want to
work on?
I used to say when you, I usedto coach some of my staff and
(24:26):
say, when they leave, help themleave with at least one success,
one thing that they'veaccomplished.
So pointing out maybe, hey, youreally are resilient, You've
been able to survive this.
How do we take this and applyit to where you're at.
Tell me one thing you can dowith resilience and people
(24:47):
experiencing homelessness.
You know like you've survived.
You figured out how to eat andstuff like that.
How do you take that creativitynow and put it in a place that
is productive?
So coaching along, that, Ithink, gives them hope.
I think you just have toinstill hope in them.
Sterling (25:05):
Do you think the move towards medication I think it's
methadone and these type ofprograms that individuals are
signing into once they come intointake are being used to their
max capacity to help people, oris it just something that is
(25:26):
going to fade away?
Carrie Kurtz (25:27):
Mm-hmm.
I used to be a skeptic of MAT,medically assisted treatment.
I used to really be the personthat said why would you
substitute one for the other?
But over time I've come toappreciate it and see the
importance of it, because somepeople need that ability to wean
(25:48):
off safely as well as have theopportunity maybe for some
counseling on what's behind theusing.
For example, I remember yearsago my son was in some
counseling and they said themedication gives you a
therapeutic level or the abilityto receive therapy.
(26:09):
So it's a therapeutic level ofmedication.
Mat, as I understand it, is notexpected to be a lifelong
solution.
Right, you wean off of it, butsometimes you need that.
I really believe some peopleneed that opportunity to engage
in that and to receive that.
It's when you walk out the dooris part of the problem.
(26:33):
If it's not continued, then youhave people that fall right
back.
Or if you don't have the rightsupport, that's when people tend
to overdose because they'vebeen weaned off of it and they
go out and try to use what theyused before.
Right, there's a highpercentage of people that can
overdose within the first 48hours of release.
(26:56):
So there's a lot with MAT, butI do think that it's beneficial
for the right people and to havesupport.
I again provide consulting andcoaching, really trying to help
stakeholders come together toserve individuals in an
efficient and effective way andhelp them go from striving to
(27:17):
thriving.
And so you could reach me at myemail, which is carrie.
kurtz60, which is C-A-R-R-I-Eperiod, kurtz K-U-R-T-Z, the
number 60, at gmail.
com.
Sterling (27:32):
Thank you so much, Carrie.
Yeah, thank you.
I'm sure this will not be thelast time you come on our show.
Carrie Kurtz (27:37):
Thank you, thank you, thank you, sterling.
Speaker 3 (27:40):
Thanks for checking out this episode of Struggle2
Success.
To connect with the show, youcan email us at struggle2success
.
p@ gmail.
com.
You can email us atstruggle2success.
p@ gmail.
com.
Make sure you like andsubscribe so that you never miss
an episode.
And remember to lock in righthere other every Saturday.
Remember life is trials, Stayfocused.
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