November 13, 2024 • 55 mins
Learn about successful dual enrollment implementation.
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to the Student Success Podcast.
I'm Al Solano, founder of theContinuous Learning Institute,
or CLI, a higher educationonline resource focused on
providing community college andopen access university educators
with practical information onhow to get results at their
campus.
As a resource within CLI, theStudent Success Podcast is
(00:23):
focused on just that thechallenges, opportunities,
failures and successes ofpractices intended to improve
student success and equity.
The goal is to leave you withthought-provoking ideas, nuts
and bolts, information and orlessons learned from the field
so you can consider how youmight apply them to your
institutional context.
Them to your institutionalcontext.
(00:46):
For today's podcast, it's apleasure to have John Fink.
John is Senior ResearchAssociate and Program Lead at
the Community College ResearchCenter at Columbia University's
Teachers College.
His research uncoversstructural barriers that result
in inequitable access toeducational and economic
opportunity for raciallyminoritized, low-income and
(01:06):
first-generation students.
He focuses on how educationalinstitutions can change to
produce more equitable outcomesand he prioritizes applying
findings to inform efforts toimprove community college
effectiveness.
He was the lead author on anational study of community
college dual enrollment students, which tracked former dual
enrollment students intopost-secondary education and
(01:29):
provided national andstate-by-state outcomes.
His work was recognized by theNational Institute for the Study
of Transfer Students with theTransfer Champion Catalyst Award
in 2019.
Catalyst Award in 2019.
John's research has beenpublished in the Journal of
Higher Education CommunityCollege Review, journal of
American College Health, journalof Student Affairs, research
(01:58):
and Practice, new Directions forStudent Services and the NASPA
Journal about Women in HigherEducation.
Welcome to the Student SuccessPodcast, john.
Thank you Good to be here.
Student Success Podcast, john.
Thank you Good to be here.
So, john, I start all podcastsasking guests if they wouldn't
mind sharing something aboutthemselves besides work, a hobby
or a story or whatever.
Would you share somethingplease?
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Sure, yeah.
So I guess I'd share.
You know, this fall is I'mhitting my 10 year workiversary
at CCRC, but so it feels like,wow, just a decade's gone by.
But I grew up in Wisconsin andmoved out to the East Coast
about 15 years ago and we livedin New York for a while.
(02:41):
But about six or seven years agowe moved down to Philadelphia
and now we live in SouthPhiladelphia, like really close
to the Phillies and the Eaglesstadiums and the Flyers and the
76ers, and so like I think for awhile like I'd tried to
maintain my allegiance to thePackers and like Wisconsin
sports, but it's just been likeimpossible to shake the Philly
(03:02):
sports thing down here in SouthPhilly where you can like walk
to the stadiums.
And now I got two young boysand we just like we actually can
like walk to the Phillies gamesand we just like fully drank
the Kool-Aid on that and I'mreally excited for the
postseason.
It was like a really close gamelast night against the Mets, so
you can like hear the stadiumand then hear all the neighbors
(03:26):
cheering at the same time.
So it's been a really cool wayto connect with the city here.
That's sort of on the mindtoday, after a big weekend.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
Oh, nice Thanks for sharing that.
I grew up in New York City andNew York City fans can be rough,
but I don't think anybody beatsPhilly fans.
I mean they could be reallyrough.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Yeah, yeah, you know the, I think it's, it's it feels
like a cool way to connect withthe neighbors, Um, so it's like
you gotta stay up on it if youwant to kind of build those
connections and it's, it's fun,you know, it's fun when
everybody's cheering for thesame team.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
John, actually we met a few years ago.
I was brought in to help with aproject at CCRC we're doing
guided pathways for ruralcolleges and I'll put that a
little bit.
So we interacted a bit.
So it was great to work withyou and I've been keeping up on
all of your dual enrollment workand finally, I have you on the
(04:24):
podcast.
So thank you so much for beinghere.
So the focus of today is dualenrollment, and let's start with
the very basics, John, just sothat everybody has clarity what
is dual enrollment exactly,especially given that there are
different ways of going about it?
So can you give us thatfoundational definition of dual
(04:47):
enrollment?
Speaker 2 (04:49):
Sure.
So dual enrollment is really alot of different things across
the country and so very broadlydefined it's when a student is
taking a college course forcollege credit before they
complete high school.
And I say I say a studentbefore they complete high school
, and I say a student beforethey complete high school.
You might want to say a highschool student, but even in some
(05:09):
cases there might be an eighthgrader taking such a course.
So it's really anytime beforestudents complete high school
that they're taking a course forcollege credit, and that can be
a lot of different things.
It can be just a one or two,you know one off course or one
or two courses.
That's happening at the college.
It might be taught at the highschool, might be taught by a
(05:30):
college professor, might betaught by a high school
instructor.
It could be an early collegehigh school model that is much
more kind of intensive in itsdesign.
So it's a lot of differentthings.
It's called a lot of differentthings dual credit, concurrent
enrollment, dual enrollment andmany other terms but what it's
not is it excludes advancedplacement or international
(05:53):
baccalaureate programs.
So when we use the term dualenrollment as a broad umbrella,
it covers a lot of ground.
But it is sort of separate anddistinct from other programs
like AP, which is quite largenationally, and IB, where
oftentimes the credit thatstudents get in college has to
come through performance on asingle high-stakes standardized
(06:14):
test.
So dual enrollment is a lot ofdifferent things.
It's a quite big bucket ofpractice happening out in the
country with millions ofstudents participating every
year.
Practice happening out in thecountry with millions of
students participating everyyear and I think, yeah, the joke
going around people like youknow there was one list of 34
different names for dualenrollment across the country or
(06:34):
like every time I think someonesays that I bet like the number
keeps on going up and up.
But it's generally just collegecourse taking in high school
for the most part.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
Let's unpack a little bit the college instructors
teaching at the high schoolversus having the high school
teachers teach to do enrollment.
The reason I want to unpackthis a little bit is because
(07:05):
about oh my gosh, it's been nowwhat?
Five, six years ago I wascontacted by Cal State LA's
College of Education because alot of the K-12 districts were
telling the College of Educationthe dean at the time hey, we
got this dual enrollment, it'sgreat, but we have a challenge.
The faculty that come to ourcampuses they know their content
(07:29):
but they're not allpedagogically equipped to teach
adolescents.
A non-credit course acertificate, mini certificate if
you will that was then.
The cost was significantlyreduced because the dean was
(07:50):
really cool.
She put it in their, basicallyin their continuing ed.
We created the course and thenit helped faculty be better
prepared to teach at a highschool.
Has that been something you'vebeen hearing about too?
Speaker 2 (08:15):
Has that been something you've been hearing
about too?
Do you have any thoughts onthat of just design, let alone
sort of the quality ofimplementation?
And so you know there'sorganizations like NASEP, the
National Alliance for ConcurrentEnrollment Partnerships, that
have standards for accreditationaround quality and that speak
to things like.
You have to have these thingsin place to have a quality
(08:37):
program including sharedprofessional development and
sort of work on both the contentof the course and as well as
the pedagogy.
And so our research at CCRC,you know we've done work to look
at the effects, like you know,does it work?
But you know, our research nowand into the future is just much
more focused on, like how canwe make these programs work even
(08:57):
better for more students?
And this issue of quality.
And you know, thinking about,like, the pedagogy, how to keep
the college standards of acollege course but teach it in a
high school setting to a classof high school students.
I think that's that's a realsort of rich discussion that's
(09:17):
happening in the field and, youknow, ideally I think it happens
in those partnerships betweencolleges and their K-12, in the
disciplines and places wevisited that have really strong
outcomes that are, that are, youknow, you know delivering these
courses to a broad range ofstudents that are representative
of their school districts butalso have really strong outcomes
(09:40):
for those students in dualenrollment even after high
school, strong outcomes forthose students in dual
enrollment even after highschool.
They're really attuned to thisand you know the deans
overseeing these courses they'relooking for instructors with
prior high school teachingexperience, just like knowing
the sort of classroom managementand what's needed to.
You know, be in a high schooland have that presence but also
(10:01):
is a college faculty member andcan bring in that college level
curriculum, and I think thatthat's sort of like maybe that's
the low hanging fruit.
Look with folks with that K-12in the background.
But, as you sort of brought up,you know what you shared trying
to create some training aroundthat.
You know now, high schoolstudents are one in five
(10:22):
community college studentsacross the country.
What does it mean to beteaching classes with high
school students in the seats,oftentimes completely filled
with high school students?
You know, I think some folksthink we shouldn't do anything
differently.
This is a college course.
A college course should be acollege course, but any good
instructor, I think, knows thatyou always have to meet the
(10:43):
students where they're at, and Ithink how you do that and what
it looks like very much needs tobe an ongoing and really local
conversation.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Yeah, I've had some discussions with some faculty
who like a college course is acollege course.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
But you know I work with many faculty to improve
their practices at the collegelevel at their institutions to
improve their practices at thecollege level at their
institutions and you don't wantto bring those antiquated
(11:20):
practices to pedagogy.
And you know the requirementsin place to teach a college
course is about content,knowledge, subject matter,
expertise.
You know you got to have thatgraduate degree in a particular
subject, which is, of course,incredibly important about
having a college course, and youknow there's a lot to be
learned about how to teach it aswell.
(11:40):
That we can, that in higher edwe can really take from our K-12
colleagues as well that we can,that in higher ed we can really
take from our K-12 colleagues.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
Oh, there's so much to learn from our K-12
colleagues.
It's incredible.
Do you have a sense, john,nationally maybe you have the
data or maybe just kind of asense, kind of your gut feeling
here a little bit about whatpercentage nationally is dual
enrollment, high school teachersteaching dual enrollment versus
the college instructors at thehigh schools.
Do you have a sense of that byany chance?
Speaker 2 (12:12):
Yeah, the vast majority is taught at the high
school by high schoolinstructors.
So one like a relatively recentnational survey so just to give
a little bit of a snapshot, putthat at 80% of dual enrollment,
80% taught in the high schoolby high school teachers who are
qualified to teach.
So that's definitely themajority.
(12:33):
That's not the case everywhere.
In some states, in some citiesyou go and it's totally flipped
the other way, where most dualenrollment's happening even
outside the school day, like inthe afternoons at the college.
And I think as a researcher, oneof the most frequent questions
that I've gotten, that we'vegotten as researchers, is like
what's better?
You know, kind of like whatworks better at the high school,
(12:54):
at the college, by a highschool instructor?
Are there differences if it's acollege instructor?
And those are great questions.
We've done some work on that inTexas, where you know we could
kind of get in that if you'recurious, but where you see like
findings in the aggregate, likeon a state level.
But what we've also seen islike it can be done really well
(13:16):
in any of those settings thatcan also not be done well in any
of those settings.
So it's, and oftentimes thatsort of arrangement isn't that
flexible.
They're sort of likeconstrained in some way.
You know, like the only way wecan offer this is if it's done
at the high school.
That's like we're at a largescale.
So how do we do that reallywell?
And that's the second questionthat I think is really important
(13:38):
and we focus.
We visited places with reallystrong outcomes that are
broadening access for studentsof color and low-income students
and doing well and servingthose students, and we see that
those programs are taught at thehigh school.
They're taught at the college.
There's a little bit of onlinein there, so there's like ways
to kind of try to do online wellfor students.
But basically it can be done.
(14:00):
It's sort of like how do youplay to the strengths of each of
those setups is generally whatwe find.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
Thank you.
That's very interesting, that80% figure.
So high schools have existingcurriculum right and they have
faculty that teach certainrequirements to graduate from
high school.
Is there sometimes a little bitof conflict and how's that
resolved when, let's say,there's already the whole
(14:28):
English four-year Englishsequence for high school and
then here comes the college andthey want to do something to
have them take, for example,English composition, the first
course they would take incollege, the first course they
would take in college?
How do you find they normallykind of tease that out so that
(14:48):
it doesn't conflict with thehigh school curriculum?
Do you have a sense of that?
Speaker 2 (14:52):
Yeah, I've heard of that.
I think what I hear morefrequently is that the crisis in
many high schools is that thesenior year feels like a
throwaway for students.
There's so much effort to getstudents past those key high
school graduation requirements.
Most students are pretty muchdone with everything by the end
of 11th grade and so senior year, that 12th grade, it already
(15:14):
was sort of like the senioritis,like kind of like the last year
or whatever.
And that's especially the casefor students who have already
kind of done most of their kindof core requirements.
And so this is oftentimes whydual enrollment it's especially
the case for students who havealready kind of done most of
their kind of core requirements.
And so this is oftentimes whydual enrollment is really
positioned as an important sortof bridge into post-secondary is
because you know, we can startoffering not just the sort of
(15:36):
core English and math sort ofcourses but other courses that
aren't even available at thehigh school, that the college
offers, that are reallyinteresting, that aren't even
available at the high school,that the college offerss are
constrained to content standards, oftentimes for English and
math, and so they have to hitcheck all these boxes.
(16:11):
And you know, sometimes I think,especially when partnerships
are trying to do more innovativeteaching and learning sort of
curriculum design, trying tothink outside those like the box
of the sort of common corestandards, that can that can be
an issue.
But I think I hear we I hearmuch more about, just like you
(16:31):
know, getting those that sort oftransfer level or college level
English and math course takencare of in high school.
So students are startingpost-secondary kind of without
that gatekeeper in the way butthen also bringing in some
courses of interest to helpstudents explore fields that
they might be interested in.
You know, in post-secondary,help them think about those
(16:53):
bachelor's degree transferpathways or those associate
degree pathways in fields ofinterest.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
Yeah, that makes sense.
A few years ago well, manyyears ago I had all my three
kids go through communitycollege, but when they were in
high school, the summer betweenninth and 10th grade, I had them
start taking community collegecourses.
We didn't have a formal dualenrollment program here, so I
always made sure that they took,for example, sociology, because
(17:22):
it's not offered in high school.
It wouldn't conflict, right.
Art, history, psychology, kindof the social sciences and
humanities.
That wouldn't conflict.
I found that the math and thescience was not a good idea at
the time, right?
I don't know if things arechanging, and I would imagine
you have to have really goodcoordination between the K-12
(17:43):
and the colleges when you wantto start this as early as eighth
grade.
You know so much about dualenrollment and its benefits,
john, so how can collegesbroaden the benefits of dual
enrollment?
Speaker 2 (17:59):
Yeah, this is a question that we focus a lot of
our research on, focus a lot ofour research on, like, how can
we fully realize the potentialof offering college courses to
students in high school as notjust a lever for an acceleration
into and through college, butreally as a college access and
equity lever as well to addresschallenges that we're seeing
around declining collegeenrollment rates, generally
(18:22):
increasing questioning of thevalue of higher education and
concerns about affordability.
So, by you know what we see andwe see when this is done well,
is that implementing dualenrollment as a college access
strategy to really any highschool students and all high
school students, especiallythose who are on the margins of
college, maybe questioning is itworth it, is it?
(18:43):
For me, providing some collegecourse experience in high school
can be extremely beneficial andthe sort of research, the real
sort of evidence base, reallybears this out as well.
Really, any type of course canbe beneficial, but especially
well-taught, field-alignedcourses that are both sort of
(19:06):
I'm getting exposure to acollege-level course and having
that general college knowledgebuilding effect, but also have
that connection to purpose andinterest for the students.
Wow, I didn't know that I couldstudy drones in college.
I thought college was X, buthere I'm seeing college can be Y
, z and ABC as well.
It's like all these differentthings.
(19:27):
So it really is an opportunityfor community colleges
especially to showcase theirprograms, all of their programs,
including their appliedbachelor's degrees, including
their transfer pathways to localuniversities, and to use that
to not just push students intocollege but to pull them in
because they are connected andinterested and engaged and it
(19:48):
taps into their motivation andtaps into their talents.
That is essentially connectingguided pathways, reforms to high
school dual enrollment programswith a focus on college access
and equity, which we call dualenrollment equity pathways or
(20:09):
DEEP.
So we've studied this DEEPframework and described these
different practices in that DEEPframework, as well as how
colleges and their K-12 partnersare connecting on a shared
vision and purpose around dualenrollment as an access and
equity lever and then making theinvestments to not just do the
(20:32):
status quo dual enrollmentpractices, which has sort of
resulted in more of anacceleration dual enrollment for
students who are alreadyuniversity-bound mindset and
approach that hasn't investedmuch in dual enrollment, hasn't
invested much in outreach oradvising and supports and has
really created what we see now,which is persistent gaps in
access for Black and Latinostudents, for low-income
students, for first-generationand many other groups that are
(20:56):
not well-served in thistransition students with
disabilities, english learners.
But I think what's encouragingis that we visited places with
better outcomes that areextending their Guided Pathways
reforms into their high schoolsand they're having a lot of
success, not just growing thenumber of students going to
college generally, but alsoincreasing the number of
(21:16):
students who are coming back totheir college after high school.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
Yes, yes, john, you know I want to go a little bit
into the Guided Pathways.
As you know, I've done a ton ofwork in this area and there are
some states like Washington andCalifornia especially
California that gave thecolleges a significant amount of
funding to do Guided Pathwaysfive years and then they
extended it a little bit and ithas its pros and cons, right.
(21:44):
The cons, unfortunately andthis is so much about leadership
is that they never really gotit.
They saw this as a five-yeargrant program, right.
And now that the money isdwindling, well, guided Pathways
is going away and now we'redoing.
Our next flavor of the month, ifyou will, is dual enrollment.
(22:06):
Good leadership, exceptionalleadership, recognizes Guided
Pathways is not a program, isnot a grant.
It takes a student journeyframework and it's about
continually improving ourpractices along that student
journey.
It's about continuallyimproving our practices along
that student journey.
So for colleges, that still,because it's been the language,
right, john, everybody kind ofunderstands the pillars.
(22:28):
It's what's been used forever,right?
Dual enrollment nicely alignsand is part of guided pathways.
Right.
Through dual enrollment, you'rehelping clarify the path for
students, you're helping thementer a path, stay on the path,
right is when they're at thecollege, but the ensure learning
that fourth pillar is alsohappening through dual
(22:50):
enrollment.
So the leadership and when Isay leadership it's not just the
college president or the VPsI'm talking about, for example,
the faculty senate president,right, faculty are leaders in
this as well.
I think those that understandthat it's a continuous
improvement framework know thatI can use that framework, I can
use that language, to ensurethat dual enrollment is part of
(23:15):
this framework.
Right, what are you finding?
Are you finding that goodleadership does make that
intentional effort to say thisis a cornerstone of guided
pathways, as was developmentaled reform, or are you finding
that a lot of places they justdon't even remember what that
(23:36):
was.
And now it's the new flavor ofthe month, as some people call
it.
I don't want to diminish dualenrollment and call it flavor of
the month.
I say that as in.
You know how it is in education.
We always got like a newinitiative, right, or some of
them seeing this, as now this isthe hot thing and they forgot
all about the other studentjourney pillars.
Right, what are you seeing?
Speaker 2 (23:57):
Yeah, I think it's.
You know, dual enrollment is anincredibly important on-ramp
into the college and there'sother on-ramps too.
I think we've got to thinkabout the adult incumbent
workers out there, folks inbasic education.
So there's a non-credit program.
So these different like sort ofinflows or on-ramps into
college and dual enrollment Ithink is sort of coming up so
(24:18):
much in discussions because,first off, it's just large and
growing.
Second, it's growing insignificance because otherwise
enrollments are down.
So if you got more high schoolstudents and fewer non-high
school students, it's just alarger share of headcount at a
lot of colleges.
What I'm seeing from leadersthat seem to be dealing well and
having a strong vision arounddual enrollment connected to
(24:39):
their guided pathways orotherwise their student success
reforms at their college,whatever they're calling it um
is a real like enlightenedself-interest and it's it's
enlightened because it's seeinglike a bigger picture, kind of
like a more strategic, like fiveor 10 year out view um, that
that benefits the college, itbenefits the bottom line of the
(25:00):
college but also works towardsthe college's mission and it's
like the right thing to do fortheir community.
But it is requiring investments.
It's requiring some outlay ofresources and investments in the
short term to realize that likelonger term goal and we've
studied this in a few statesOhio, florida and Texas where
(25:24):
it's a couple important tomention a couple of things for
context.
First, there hasn't been anyadditional funding for dual
enrollment students for collegesand in fact, most colleges are
losing money on offering thesedual enrollment courses.
We did an economic analysis ofthis like a year ago.
Dual enrollment courses we didan economic analysis of this a
(25:46):
year ago.
We found on average, collegesare not recouping the total cost
to offer these courses.
The courses can be much cheaperto offer, especially if they're
taught at the high school by ahigh school instructor.
There's just not as many costsper credit.
But they're generallydiscounting tuition and fees
like steeply discounting,oftentimes offering it for free
or getting very littlereimbursement from the K-12 or
from the state for those courses.
(26:09):
So but the leadership are reallyseeing this as a lost leader.
It's really a way to grow thesupply of future college-going
students who are alreadysuccessful in their courses from
high school, their collegecourses, and they're on a
pathway to success andcompletion and transfer at their
(26:30):
college.
And so I think that that's whatwe're hearing, even in context
where there is an additionalfunding where the performance
funding is tuition, you know,because you want to grow the
supply of students coming toyour college and so from that
perspective it really is worthmaking investments in expanding
(26:50):
access.
So casting a wider net in highschool to students who maybe in
the previous conventionalapproaches that have been
described programs of privilege,dual enrollment you're reaching
other students.
You know the sort of studentswho are maybe not on the AP or
honors track in high school.
You're really trying to cast awide net to any and all high
(27:11):
school students, because that'swhere you're going to get the
return in terms of if you canprovide a high quality college
course that lights the fire forlearning and connects to
students' interests and purposeand passion and gives students a
broader view of what college isand can be, they're going to be
much more likely to come backto the community college after
(27:33):
high school instead of not goingto any college.
So this isn't about trying todetract the university-bound
students to the communitycollege after high school.
This is about taking thestudents by which there's
probably in many communitieslike half of high school
graduates are just not going tocollege.
So taking that huge pool ofstudents and trying to get those
(27:53):
students connected to a pathwaywhile they're still in high
school so that they come back tocollege.
And when we've talked tocollege leaders and business
officers in Texas, ohio, inFlorida, they have the
financials They'll show you likethey're looking at their
re-enrollment or yield rates.
They're seeing okay, we got tohire, we're hiring five or six
(28:14):
more advisors, outreachspecialists, you know, for dual
enrollment, but we're seeingthis growing trend of students
coming to us after high school.
So I think that it's I call itenlightened self-interest,
because it does.
You do have to sort of see thatlonger term strategy and make
some upfront investments, butthis is what we're trying to
outline in this deep approach todual enrollment, one that is
(28:38):
focused on the bottom line forcolleges, financially, but also
on the return to mission, likewhat are they trying to do for
their communities?
How are they growing, you know,and realizing their, their
longstanding mission ofproviding accessible and
affordable higher education?
Speaker 1 (28:57):
Yeah, again, it goes back to leadership.
I seen too often there are somecolleges, for example, that
they're in these crazy perpetualstructural deficits and part of
what they do is they look at aparticular program and they go
well, this cost us 300K, we gotto cut it, and then this one
cost us you know, I don't know500K.
(29:20):
We got to cut it, and then thisone cost us 100K, we got to cut
it, and then this one costs us100K, we got to cut it.
And they never do an analysisof whether that program is
actually bringing in money.
So if you have a program thatcosts 300K, you're losing
initially, but over time let'ssay, in retention, that brings
in a million dollars right, it'sa $700,000 gain, right.
(29:45):
And it's rare for leadership todo this kind of analysis, but
the kind of leadership thatdoesn't do it but gets it that
this is a strategy, even thoughit might be costing us some
money.
It's a long-term strategy tohelp students find a path and
come to our college, because wegave them kind of a taste test
(30:05):
right, which, by the way, meansthat we got to implement this
really well, because if thetaste test ain't good, students
are not going to be coming backto your college I have a
question about.
So back to my experience, rightso I was a first-generation
college student and, having gonethrough college and then I
(30:27):
worked with colleges, I wasbetter prepared to help my kids,
right?
So they had the advantage ofnot being first-generation and
there wasn't an official dualenrollment program at the time.
So I kind of created onebecause I knew that the colleges
offered college courses forhigh schoolers.
By the way, John, the processby which to take these courses
(30:49):
was before the pandemic was socumbersome Talk about barriers.
Oh my gosh, we had to have wetsignatures from the principal
and the counselor and if therewas a smudge I kid you not, if
there was a smudge on the coursethat you wanted to take, then
they wouldn't accept the form.
It took a frigging pandemic toget rid of that stupid wet
(31:15):
signature form and finally theythey they're using digital right
.
So my question is you have thosefamilies that are not first
generation that know, like I'mgoing to have my kid take AP by
the way, I hate AP, I hate thecollege board.
I can do a whole podcast onthat.
(31:36):
The bullshit that they makethese kids go through is just.
It's just I don't want to startthrowing F-bombs Anyway.
So but dual enrollment is coolbecause it's not based on.
It's going to end with thissuper high, standardized test
that, by the way, you can takean AP course and it still
(31:58):
wouldn't have the same contentat a regular college it wouldn't
even be the same often and thenyou can get a two or three and
some colleges won't accept itbecause they want at least a
four.
It's just a terrible system.
It just it makes the inequitieseven worse.
But are you finding that youhave families like me that are
(32:20):
in our first generation,generation, that a lot of the
kids that take this, a lot ofthe students, I should say, that
take this, are those from theones that typically do take the
AP, the ones that do havefunding to do stuff over the
summer and academic preparationover the summer, and then, on
top of that, they're doing dualenrollment and not enough of our
disproportionately impactedminoritized students are taking
(32:44):
it?
Are you seeing some kind oftrend?
Speaker 2 (32:46):
Yeah.
So I mean, I think, like rightnow, if you look like a national
sort of survey, sample surveyof the 2019 high school
graduates, about a third ofgraduates had taken a dual
enrollment course in high schooland in our research we visited
places where their participationrates were much higher than a
third.
So they're getting like a halfhalf of their high school
(33:09):
graduates to take a dualenrollment course.
So what are they doing to getthat majority of high school
students to take a collegecourse, not just the ones who
are kind of in the AP honorsuniversity track, sort of like
the way you know, I mean, andwhat we've seen?
So in our research we'vedescribed this deep framework.
There's four different practiceareas around what we saw at
(33:33):
community colleges that werefurther ahead in their guided
pathways implementation.
We visited in Texas and Floridathat also had a ton of dual
enrollment students Texas andFlorida that also had a ton of
dual enrollment students andthey had closed the gaps in
access for Black and Latino andlow-income students and had
really strong dual enrollmentoutcomes.
So we went to six of thosesites and we described this deep
set of practices and they hadreally broadened access,
(33:56):
broadened the benefits of dualenrollments and what we saw is
the four areas outreach,alignment, advising and support
the outreach the first area.
I mean there were just so manydifferent tactics and things
that these partnerships weredoing to not, you know, just get
the folks who are going to seekthis out.
You know, the high schoolerswith parents, with the college
(34:18):
education that knew to be askingabout AP, knew to be asking
about dual enrollment.
Education that knew to beasking about AP knew to be
asking about dual enrollment andinstead what they're doing is
they were building in dualenrollment into the default
sequence, the default ninth to12th grade pathway that really
would be put on any student'splan when they came into high
school.
They were increasing knowledgeand awareness about dual
(34:38):
enrollment, starting inelementary and middle school,
oftentimes in partnerships withcollege going sort of college
knowledge programs like AVID andother programs that you know
have projects throughout theyear for like fifth, sixth and
seventh graders to learn andresearch colleges.
They were saying did you knowyou could take these free dual
enrollment courses?
They were, you know, doing alot with the parent and family
(34:59):
engagement.
So you know, at the schools, inall the languages, for the
parents out, at civicorganizations, community
organization, boys and GirlsClub, churches, other sort of
civic groups, local NAACPchapters.
Like really getting the word outabout these opportunities,
because that's what you hear.
A lot is like, well, I justdidn't know, or I wish I would
have known sooner, that I couldhave taken these free college
(35:21):
courses in high school and thennot just getting the word out.
But you know, as students arecoming into the programs you
know holding like a parentuniversity or a dual enrollment
student parent info night, tosay, ok, you're going to start
in dual enrollment courses thissemester.
Here's what it means.
Like this is a college course,this is not a high school course
.
Let's say like level set on thecollege expectations and
(35:43):
parents are going to needsupport.
Please, like reach out ifyou're struggling.
The worst thing you can do isnot reach out for help.
So kind of norming on all ofthis, help seeking behavior,
telling parents what it's goingto be like.
So all of this is a part of theoutreach strategy, focusing not
just on the wealthy and thewider high schools in the
service area, but going to theTitle I schools, the schools
(36:04):
with large shares of minorityfamilies and students, and
saying, well, why don't we havea robust dual enrollment
offering at this high school andthen going to the students who
are gaining momentum in theirCTE programs.
In high school they're takingthree or four CTE courses in a
(36:25):
high school CTE program.
They clearly have talents,interests, they have a career in
mind and thinking how are wegoing to bring in post-secondary
into that CTE program?
Because we know that you'regoing to need a certificate or
applied associate or appliedbaccalaureate or even a
bachelor's degree if you want tohave a good career in this
field.
So in this way I mean thesepartnerships were really
(36:48):
inspiring because they werebreaking down the legacy of race
and class-based tracking thatstill exists in our education
system tracking into theuniversity track or the
vocational track, the CTE,versus academic tracking,
between just residentialsegregation of schools by going
to the Title I schools and youknow we did this research in
(37:12):
Texas and Florida.
You know, and people were, youknow they weren't talking about
equity per se, but they weretalking about fairness and like
what's right about fairness andlike what's right and also you
know that's where they're comingfrom and they're also you know
the leaders were also sayinglike this is a way to grow the
supply of students in ourcommunities who are just going
to go to college.
So I think there's a lot ofreasons to invest in this sort
(37:34):
of approach, but I should.
The last point I'll say is thatyou know this that is not the
status quo of these dualenrollment programs.
The status quo is a lack ofoutreach.
Just come and ask if you'reinterested and if you can make
it through the 50 hoops of theapplication process, including
all the wet signatures or thesend a form home to get your
(37:57):
parents to approve the maturecontent of this college course,
or you know, that's anotherexample you know then we'll
enroll you and you know we don'twon't provide any advising.
You know, seek out advising ifyou need it and we don't need to
invest much in the supports inthe classroom because you should
be an accelerated student.
(38:18):
You should have this allfigured out.
That's the status quo.
It's very different than thedeep approach where there's a
lot of investment in theoutreach to get the word out and
the supports to get students inthe advising, to help students,
you know, explore the coursesand post-secondary degree
programs and transfer pathwaysand how the courses align, and
to keep the rigor and thecontent standards high of those
(38:40):
college courses, but to open upthe door wider to those courses
by increasing the supports inthose courses so that students
are successful.
I think a lot of times thereason folks want to limit
access to dual enrollmentprograms is because they don't
want students to fail, andrightfully so.
Students should not be failingon their dual enrollment courses
.
They generally don't.
These courses have like 90, 95%course pass rates very high
(39:04):
course pass rates but oftentimesthat's used as a way to limit
access and I think we need tochange the mindset there that we
don't limit access because wedon't want students to fail.
We increase supports because wedon't want students to fail.
Speaker 1 (39:19):
John, what does DEEP stand for again Dual Enrollment,
equity Pathways and what arethe components to that again?
Speaker 2 (39:27):
So there's four practice areas outreach to
underserved students in schools.
Alignment of dual enrollment tocollege degrees and careers.
Advising to help studentsexplore their interests and
develop post-secondary plans.
And supporting students anddelivering high quality
(39:48):
instruction.
Speaker 1 (39:50):
Beautiful.
So you said something thatstarted to make me laugh a
little bit, because you saidthat places like Texas and
Florida they're doing a prettygood job with the minoritized
students and you actually seenWell, some places where we just
went to six sites, so you know,but it was.
Speaker 2 (40:10):
it was interesting to hear like just folks on the
front lines really operatingfrom a sense of fairness and
justice for their community,despite the sort of political
taboos and people feeling veryrestricted and worried about
their political contexts.
Speaker 1 (40:25):
Right, and that's why I smiled a little bit because
even if it's six colleges right,you're talking about
institutions that areeffectively an anti-DEI state
politically.
And in my own work I've donesome national work I find very
fascinating when I dig into someother program data and what I
(40:47):
tell and I love California, I doa lot of my work here is that
I'm finding I have found it'snot all colleges, but I find
this kind of theme.
I like to see more research onthis.
I find this kind of theme.
I like to see more research onthis.
I'm hypothesizing here, basedon my experience and then even
(41:08):
on the six that you went to,that some of these anti-DEI
states especially the way peopleare feeling and they're like
walking on eggshells theiroutcomes for students of color
tend to be better than many ofthe places that reach out to me
and ask me to help them out inCalifornia, and it shocks them
(41:29):
to know that they have betteroutcomes for students of color
because this is a very strongDEIA state, Right, and I tell
them, I say you know what it is,they just do the work.
They just do the work.
It's not performative, it's nottweeting out stuff, it's not
(41:51):
social media this and correctingpeople's language and thinking
that's equity work, and theyactually do the work.
Had paid a ton of money to doguided pathways.
They did it because it's theright thing to do and they're
(42:13):
continuing to do guided pathwaysand folding in the dual
enrollment and then, within thatframework, you have what you
called deep right, the outreach,alignment, advising and support
.
They actually do the work.
When you do the work and you'reintentional about these
students who aredisproportionately impacted, you
tend to see results.
Right Now, I don't want to makea blackened statement about
California, because I work withmany of the colleges that do do
(42:37):
the work, but so many don't, soit just kind of made me go again
.
Oh my gosh.
I wish there was a researchstudy on this, on states that
are anti-DEI versus that arevery pro, and why some of the
states have better outcomes forstudents of color.
Right as we wind down here, Ihave a question.
You can respond to what I justsaid if you'd like.
Speaker 2 (42:59):
Yeah, well, I guess I would say I haven't done
fieldwork or visited sites inCalifornia.
I think, though, just a generalobservation, from looking at
like national, like collegelevel data, is there just so
much variation like even within,especially within states.
You know, we do these rankingswhere we say like how's, how's
Texas and Florida doing on theirtransfer outcomes compared to
(43:22):
other states or whatever, butthere's so much like variation
among colleges within states orwhatever, but there's so much
like variation among collegeswithin states.
And then, when we look at thisat a partnership level so we've
done like the looking at thecommunity college, university as
a pair, how they're performingcompared to other partnerships,
or the community college and thehigh school as a pair compared
to others there's just so muchvariation.
You know even more at that pairlevel and I think it's you know
(43:59):
to try to like, attribute themlike what.
Yes, and you know, really, inall of these scenarios there's
room for further sort of likeimprovement and growth in most
places.
I do think you know we visited,we looked at all these payers
in Texas and Florida that hadthe strongest results and that
had the largest numbers ofstudents and had broad access
(44:21):
and closed gaps in access forBlack and Latino low-income
students, etc.
Black and Latino low-incomestudents, et cetera, and they
were doing well.
You know they had strongoutcomes.
But in many places, like, therewas still a lot of room for
improvement.
You know it's like, well, youknow your, your college going
rate is is 75%.
That's higher than the sort ofgeneral average of 65, but you
(44:43):
know, 75% of dual enrollmentstudents went to college, 25%
didn't.
So like, what's going on withthose students?
And so it's like kind of likenobody's perfect.
There's always room forimprovement.
There's always room.
And absolutely just as apersonal reflection from the
during the very politicallycharged times which is still the
case around anti-DEI andanti-equity efforts in
(45:05):
politically conservative statesand anti-equity efforts in
politically conservative states,it really makes me wonder, kind
of like, what is lost from thattaboo from the work.
You know, kind of the colorevasiveness that folks focus on
(45:27):
low income students, whichobviously is important and
needed, but it does.
It does feel like, you know,something's lost for sure
because of that, because they'rereally not able to have the
real conversations or be a partof their official acts and do
the work, like you said, and Ithink that that is what was
(45:49):
really inspiring from all ofthis research is just the
commitment.
And as much as we talk aboutlike best practices right, you
know, like what are thesepractice areas?
It's the people man, like it's.
You know we distill them down topractices and strategies, but
it's just because the counselor,the advisor, like saw something
that didn't look right andfigured out a way to fix it, and
(46:13):
then that becomes like thepractice or the strategy.
So it really comes down topeople.
It really comes down to like asense of fairness that I've seen
and a dissonance there, likethis doesn't seem right, it
doesn't, shouldn't have to bethis way.
It shouldn't have to be that ifyou want to take a dual
enrollment course, you've got topass this Accuplacer test.
You know it shouldn't, itshouldn't that you just have to.
It was like came down to howyou know how was your morning
(46:36):
that morning, you know how wasyour trip into school, and then
that sort of determines whetheror not you can, you know, take
your college coursework in highschool.
So like folks are seeing thatthey're like that doesn't seem
right.
We should maybe look tomultiple or alternate measures
for placement.
That was that's been a bigbarrier in other states.
Speaker 1 (46:56):
So yeah, seeing the issues and not talking about it
only, but then, like again, justdo the work.
You know it's interesting.
There's a microcosm of thathappening in California, where
the Central Valley is probablyperhaps the most politically red
, and in that place some of thecolleges there are leaders in
dual enrollment, they're leadersin guided pathways and they
(47:19):
have pretty good outcomes withstudents of color.
So again, it's just ahypothesis.
Speaker 2 (47:27):
One thing that's unique for dual enrollment
nationally is that it's it'svery invest in it to address,
you know, affordability ofcollege, to increase college
(47:51):
access, and I think that's good.
I think we want these programsto really work for every student
and they haven't, historically,they haven't fully lived up to
that potential yet.
But in many places, you know, Ihope to say a growing number of
colleges and their partners arereally kind of seeing the full
(48:14):
potential and I think that folks, if you talk to practitioners
who are doing the work, I thinkthey largely get this, they see
the potential here.
But it's really about, okay,how do we get leadership, how do
we get the investments on boardto realize this potential?
Not just because it's the rightthing to do, but because this
is increasingly, you know,important for the bottom line,
(48:37):
for colleges, and I think, asenrollment trends are going to
continue, it's going to beincreasingly, you know, colleges
won't be able to, they won'tafford, they won't be able to
afford not to take, you know, adifferent approach to dual
enrollment.
Speaker 1 (48:54):
And so, to wind down here, this last question, John,
because we want to move beyondthe the all the talk about
equity and again, do the work,just do the work.
Let's say there are listenershere.
They're the newly minteddirector of dual enrollment.
(49:15):
Their institution has apartnership with one out of the
10 high schools that they haveand they offer just one or two
courses, and this dualenrollment director has been
brought in to move beyond thetalk, because there's been a lot
of talk for many years.
They finally got the positionup and running.
(49:36):
They finally have someresources to put behind it.
What would be your advice tothis new director of dual
enrollment to help them besuccessful in their first couple
of years?
Well, beyond, right, but likewhat are some things that you
(49:56):
really need to do in this firstor two years?
Speaker 2 (50:00):
Well, I am a researcher so I'm always drawn
to the data side of it.
So I think like, starting fromthat, um, quantitative I'll
speak qualitative andquantitatively but like
quantitatively, if I was in anew position getting there, I
would want to just look to seelike who are all my high school
partners, sort of in rank orderby size of current dual
enrollment, and then for everyeach of those high schools, I
(50:21):
want to see like what's the sortof racial breakdown of that
high school?
Is it a title one school?
Is it serving like a lot of lowincome families or not?
And try to think like widelyabout, like you know, there
might be some high schools thatdon't have a lot of students but
or even no students.
But who's in our service area,like what's the pool of
potential high school studentsin the area, and to really think
(50:42):
about at that school by schoollevel, because each one of those
schools is a building, is aprincipal, and then you know who
the person is that you need toreach out to.
And if I'm looking at that list, I want to, okay, I'm thinking
like what are our big partnersthat we can really strengthen?
What are the partners thatmaybe should be bigger, because
they've got like 2000 studentsenrolled in their school and
(51:04):
we've got 20 of them in dualenrollment.
Where are my Title I highschools Like which are the
schools that are kind ofunderrepresented?
So I want to think on aschool-by-school level with that
disaggregated data and in eachschool I know, as a principal,
that I can reach out to so thatcan be very specific into
partnership development.
You've got to build arelationship, you know, and it's
(51:26):
going to you kind of have to,you got to go to them, you got
to act with them, um, um, amindset of service, because dual
enrollment is one of a millionthings that a high school
principal is doing.
It might not be the highestpriority but, um, that I what
we've heard they really doappreciate consistent, sustained
, reliable, you know, followingup, being reliable effort for
(51:48):
outreach.
So I'm thinking, I'm thinkingabout that, I'm thinking like
qualitatively, you know, talkingto students that we have, or
rapid dual enrollment students,like, what do they want?
What do they like on theseprograms?
What do they want?
What are the barriers?
You know that maybe they're init, sure, but like what are they
hearing from their friendsaround why they didn't take dual
enrollment?
So, understanding what thebarriers are and really kind of
(52:10):
thinking about how do we startbusting these barriers, the
application, you know, the lackof awareness, the lack of course
offering.
So, getting at the barriers and,you know, I think, kind of
getting to that, to that data, Iknow, if the listeners in
California you know, which hasbeen, I think, historically more
at the college based dualenrollment.
(52:32):
There is the CCAP agreementsthat allow high school courses
to be, or college courses to be,offered at the high school.
So one of the benefits ofoffering the college course at
the high school is it's a muchyou know there's not as many
access barriers because studentsdon't have to travel to the
college, they can take thecourse during the school day.
So thinking about those realbig structural barriers that
(52:55):
have a disproportionate effectand are creating the results in
terms of gaps and access.
So that's all about access.
But then I'd really be thinkingabout how, if we're going to
double or triple this focused,triple dual enrollment focused
on the high schools andcommunities that are the least
well represented right now, howare we going to make sure that
(53:16):
we're going to keep the qualityhigh and increase the supports
in the classroom so that we keepour 90 and 95 percent course
pass rates for these dualenrollment courses or whatever
they are, our 90 and 95% coursepass rates for these dual
enrollment courses or whateverthey are, and and offer just any
college course to give thatcollege experience and make
students boost that confidenceof like I can be a college
student.
(53:37):
A college professor said I cando this.
That's all like the magic, thespecial sauce.
But then also how, what's theadvising and other sort of
supports and instruction to helpstudents see how that college
course can fit into a longerterm game plan for them after
high school, a post-secondarygame plan, because they're
(53:58):
getting exposure to thecollege's programs, the
college's meta majors orwhatever.
You know, all that good guide,pathway stuff around helping
students explore, you know,connect to their interests, have
an inspiring course, build aplan.
How is that going to extend andstart in dual enrollment and
really be an on-ramp into thecollege's offerings, including,
(54:18):
and very much especiallyincluding, the transfer pathways
to bachelor's degrees andbeyond?
Speaker 1 (54:26):
What beautiful advice to help someone do the work.
John, thank you for that.
Thank you so much forparticipating in the Student
Success Podcast.
Speaker 2 (54:37):
Yeah, thanks so much for having me.
It was a great conversation and, you know, stay in touch.
I want to know, I want to keeplearning what you're learning.
Speaker 1 (54:44):
Oh, for sure, We'll do that.
Good to see you again, john.
Thank you for listening to theStudent Success Podcast.
Each episode has show noteswhich include helpful links and
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(55:05):
articles, tools, resources,podcasts, etc.
All tailored for you.
Resources, podcasts, etc.
All tailored for you, thepractitioner.
Thank you.
Welcome to the Student Success Podcast.
I'm Al Solano, founder of theContinuous Learning Institute,
or CLI, a higher educationonline resource focused on
providing community college andopen access university educators
with practical information onhow to get results at their
campus.
As a resource within CLI, theStudent Success Podcast is
(00:23):
focused on just that thechallenges, opportunities,
failures and successes ofpractices intended to improve
student success and equity.
The goal is to leave you withthought-provoking ideas, nuts
and bolts, information and orlessons learned from the field
so you can consider how youmight apply them to your
institutional context.
Them to your institutionalcontext.
(00:46):
For today's podcast, it's apleasure to have John Fink.
John is Senior ResearchAssociate and Program Lead at
the Community College ResearchCenter at Columbia University's
Teachers College.
His research uncoversstructural barriers that result
in inequitable access toeducational and economic
opportunity for raciallyminoritized, low-income and
(01:06):
first-generation students.
He focuses on how educationalinstitutions can change to
produce more equitable outcomesand he prioritizes applying
findings to inform efforts toimprove community college
effectiveness.
He was the lead author on anational study of community
college dual enrollment students, which tracked former dual
enrollment students intopost-secondary education and
(01:29):
provided national andstate-by-state outcomes.
His work was recognized by theNational Institute for the Study
of Transfer Students with theTransfer Champion Catalyst Award
in 2019.
Catalyst Award in 2019.
John's research has beenpublished in the Journal of
Higher Education CommunityCollege Review, journal of
American College Health, journalof Student Affairs, research
(01:58):
and Practice, new Directions forStudent Services and the NASPA
Journal about Women in HigherEducation.
Welcome to the Student SuccessPodcast, john.
Thank you Good to be here.
Student Success Podcast, john.
Thank you Good to be here.
So, john, I start all podcastsasking guests if they wouldn't
mind sharing something aboutthemselves besides work, a hobby
or a story or whatever.
Would you share somethingplease?
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Sure, yeah.
So I guess I'd share.
You know, this fall is I'mhitting my 10 year workiversary
at CCRC, but so it feels like,wow, just a decade's gone by.
But I grew up in Wisconsin andmoved out to the East Coast
about 15 years ago and we livedin New York for a while.
(02:41):
But about six or seven years agowe moved down to Philadelphia
and now we live in SouthPhiladelphia, like really close
to the Phillies and the Eaglesstadiums and the Flyers and the
76ers, and so like I think for awhile like I'd tried to
maintain my allegiance to thePackers and like Wisconsin
sports, but it's just been likeimpossible to shake the Philly
(03:02):
sports thing down here in SouthPhilly where you can like walk
to the stadiums.
And now I got two young boysand we just like we actually can
like walk to the Phillies gamesand we just like fully drank
the Kool-Aid on that and I'mreally excited for the
postseason.
It was like a really close gamelast night against the Mets, so
you can like hear the stadiumand then hear all the neighbors
(03:26):
cheering at the same time.
So it's been a really cool wayto connect with the city here.
That's sort of on the mindtoday, after a big weekend.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
Oh, nice Thanks for sharing that.
I grew up in New York City andNew York City fans can be rough,
but I don't think anybody beatsPhilly fans.
I mean they could be reallyrough.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Yeah, yeah, you know the, I think it's, it's it feels
like a cool way to connect withthe neighbors, Um, so it's like
you gotta stay up on it if youwant to kind of build those
connections and it's, it's fun,you know, it's fun when
everybody's cheering for thesame team.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
John, actually we met a few years ago.
I was brought in to help with aproject at CCRC we're doing
guided pathways for ruralcolleges and I'll put that a
little bit.
So we interacted a bit.
So it was great to work withyou and I've been keeping up on
all of your dual enrollment workand finally, I have you on the
(04:24):
podcast.
So thank you so much for beinghere.
So the focus of today is dualenrollment, and let's start with
the very basics, John, just sothat everybody has clarity what
is dual enrollment exactly,especially given that there are
different ways of going about it?
So can you give us thatfoundational definition of dual
(04:47):
enrollment?
Speaker 2 (04:49):
Sure.
So dual enrollment is really alot of different things across
the country and so very broadlydefined it's when a student is
taking a college course forcollege credit before they
complete high school.
And I say I say a studentbefore they complete high school
, and I say a student beforethey complete high school.
You might want to say a highschool student, but even in some
(05:09):
cases there might be an eighthgrader taking such a course.
So it's really anytime beforestudents complete high school
that they're taking a course forcollege credit, and that can be
a lot of different things.
It can be just a one or two,you know one off course or one
or two courses.
That's happening at the college.
It might be taught at the highschool, might be taught by a
(05:30):
college professor, might betaught by a high school
instructor.
It could be an early collegehigh school model that is much
more kind of intensive in itsdesign.
So it's a lot of differentthings.
It's called a lot of differentthings dual credit, concurrent
enrollment, dual enrollment andmany other terms but what it's
not is it excludes advancedplacement or international
(05:53):
baccalaureate programs.
So when we use the term dualenrollment as a broad umbrella,
it covers a lot of ground.
But it is sort of separate anddistinct from other programs
like AP, which is quite largenationally, and IB, where
oftentimes the credit thatstudents get in college has to
come through performance on asingle high-stakes standardized
(06:14):
test.
So dual enrollment is a lot ofdifferent things.
It's a quite big bucket ofpractice happening out in the
country with millions ofstudents participating every
year.
Practice happening out in thecountry with millions of
students participating everyyear and I think, yeah, the joke
going around people like youknow there was one list of 34
different names for dualenrollment across the country or
(06:34):
like every time I think someonesays that I bet like the number
keeps on going up and up.
But it's generally just collegecourse taking in high school
for the most part.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
Let's unpack a little bit the college instructors
teaching at the high schoolversus having the high school
teachers teach to do enrollment.
The reason I want to unpackthis a little bit is because
(07:05):
about oh my gosh, it's been nowwhat?
Five, six years ago I wascontacted by Cal State LA's
College of Education because alot of the K-12 districts were
telling the College of Educationthe dean at the time hey, we
got this dual enrollment, it'sgreat, but we have a challenge.
The faculty that come to ourcampuses they know their content
(07:29):
but they're not allpedagogically equipped to teach
adolescents.
A non-credit course acertificate, mini certificate if
you will that was then.
The cost was significantlyreduced because the dean was
(07:50):
really cool.
She put it in their, basicallyin their continuing ed.
We created the course and thenit helped faculty be better
prepared to teach at a highschool.
Has that been something you'vebeen hearing about too?
Speaker 2 (08:15):
Has that been something you've been hearing
about too?
Do you have any thoughts onthat of just design, let alone
sort of the quality ofimplementation?
And so you know there'sorganizations like NASEP, the
National Alliance for ConcurrentEnrollment Partnerships, that
have standards for accreditationaround quality and that speak
to things like.
You have to have these thingsin place to have a quality
(08:37):
program including sharedprofessional development and
sort of work on both the contentof the course and as well as
the pedagogy.
And so our research at CCRC,you know we've done work to look
at the effects, like you know,does it work?
But you know, our research nowand into the future is just much
more focused on, like how canwe make these programs work even
(08:57):
better for more students?
And this issue of quality.
And you know, thinking about,like, the pedagogy, how to keep
the college standards of acollege course but teach it in a
high school setting to a classof high school students.
I think that's that's a realsort of rich discussion that's
(09:17):
happening in the field and, youknow, ideally I think it happens
in those partnerships betweencolleges and their K-12, in the
disciplines and places wevisited that have really strong
outcomes that are, that are, youknow, you know delivering these
courses to a broad range ofstudents that are representative
of their school districts butalso have really strong outcomes
(09:40):
for those students in dualenrollment even after high
school, strong outcomes forthose students in dual
enrollment even after highschool.
They're really attuned to thisand you know the deans
overseeing these courses they'relooking for instructors with
prior high school teachingexperience, just like knowing
the sort of classroom managementand what's needed to.
You know, be in a high schooland have that presence but also
(10:01):
is a college faculty member andcan bring in that college level
curriculum, and I think thatthat's sort of like maybe that's
the low hanging fruit.
Look with folks with that K-12in the background.
But, as you sort of brought up,you know what you shared trying
to create some training aroundthat.
You know now, high schoolstudents are one in five
(10:22):
community college studentsacross the country.
What does it mean to beteaching classes with high
school students in the seats,oftentimes completely filled
with high school students?
You know, I think some folksthink we shouldn't do anything
differently.
This is a college course.
A college course should be acollege course, but any good
instructor, I think, knows thatyou always have to meet the
(10:43):
students where they're at, and Ithink how you do that and what
it looks like very much needs tobe an ongoing and really local
conversation.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Yeah, I've had some discussions with some faculty
who like a college course is acollege course.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
But you know I work with many faculty to improve
their practices at the collegelevel at their institutions to
improve their practices at thecollege level at their
institutions and you don't wantto bring those antiquated
(11:20):
practices to pedagogy.
And you know the requirementsin place to teach a college
course is about content,knowledge, subject matter,
expertise.
You know you got to have thatgraduate degree in a particular
subject, which is, of course,incredibly important about
having a college course, and youknow there's a lot to be
learned about how to teach it aswell.
(11:40):
That we can, that in higher edwe can really take from our K-12
colleagues as well that we can,that in higher ed we can really
take from our K-12 colleagues.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
Oh, there's so much to learn from our K-12
colleagues.
It's incredible.
Do you have a sense, john,nationally maybe you have the
data or maybe just kind of asense, kind of your gut feeling
here a little bit about whatpercentage nationally is dual
enrollment, high school teachersteaching dual enrollment versus
the college instructors at thehigh schools.
Do you have a sense of that byany chance?
Speaker 2 (12:12):
Yeah, the vast majority is taught at the high
school by high schoolinstructors.
So one like a relatively recentnational survey so just to give
a little bit of a snapshot, putthat at 80% of dual enrollment,
80% taught in the high schoolby high school teachers who are
qualified to teach.
So that's definitely themajority.
(12:33):
That's not the case everywhere.
In some states, in some citiesyou go and it's totally flipped
the other way, where most dualenrollment's happening even
outside the school day, like inthe afternoons at the college.
And I think as a researcher, oneof the most frequent questions
that I've gotten, that we'vegotten as researchers, is like
what's better?
You know, kind of like whatworks better at the high school,
(12:54):
at the college, by a highschool instructor?
Are there differences if it's acollege instructor?
And those are great questions.
We've done some work on that inTexas, where you know we could
kind of get in that if you'recurious, but where you see like
findings in the aggregate, likeon a state level.
But what we've also seen islike it can be done really well
(13:16):
in any of those settings thatcan also not be done well in any
of those settings.
So it's, and oftentimes thatsort of arrangement isn't that
flexible.
They're sort of likeconstrained in some way.
You know, like the only way wecan offer this is if it's done
at the high school.
That's like we're at a largescale.
So how do we do that reallywell?
And that's the second questionthat I think is really important
(13:38):
and we focus.
We visited places with reallystrong outcomes that are
broadening access for studentsof color and low-income students
and doing well and servingthose students, and we see that
those programs are taught at thehigh school.
They're taught at the college.
There's a little bit of onlinein there, so there's like ways
to kind of try to do online wellfor students.
But basically it can be done.
(14:00):
It's sort of like how do youplay to the strengths of each of
those setups is generally whatwe find.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
Thank you.
That's very interesting, that80% figure.
So high schools have existingcurriculum right and they have
faculty that teach certainrequirements to graduate from
high school.
Is there sometimes a little bitof conflict and how's that
resolved when, let's say,there's already the whole
(14:28):
English four-year Englishsequence for high school and
then here comes the college andthey want to do something to
have them take, for example,English composition, the first
course they would take incollege, the first course they
would take in college?
How do you find they normallykind of tease that out so that
(14:48):
it doesn't conflict with thehigh school curriculum?
Do you have a sense of that?
Speaker 2 (14:52):
Yeah, I've heard of that.
I think what I hear morefrequently is that the crisis in
many high schools is that thesenior year feels like a
throwaway for students.
There's so much effort to getstudents past those key high
school graduation requirements.
Most students are pretty muchdone with everything by the end
of 11th grade and so senior year, that 12th grade, it already
(15:14):
was sort of like the senioritis,like kind of like the last year
or whatever.
And that's especially the casefor students who have already
kind of done most of their kindof core requirements.
And so this is oftentimes whydual enrollment it's especially
the case for students who havealready kind of done most of
their kind of core requirements.
And so this is oftentimes whydual enrollment is really
positioned as an important sortof bridge into post-secondary is
because you know, we can startoffering not just the sort of
(15:36):
core English and math sort ofcourses but other courses that
aren't even available at thehigh school, that the college
offers, that are reallyinteresting, that aren't even
available at the high school,that the college offerss are
constrained to content standards, oftentimes for English and
math, and so they have to hitcheck all these boxes.
(16:11):
And you know, sometimes I think,especially when partnerships
are trying to do more innovativeteaching and learning sort of
curriculum design, trying tothink outside those like the box
of the sort of common corestandards, that can that can be
an issue.
But I think I hear we I hearmuch more about, just like you
(16:31):
know, getting those that sort oftransfer level or college level
English and math course takencare of in high school.
So students are startingpost-secondary kind of without
that gatekeeper in the way butthen also bringing in some
courses of interest to helpstudents explore fields that
they might be interested in.
You know, in post-secondary,help them think about those
(16:53):
bachelor's degree transferpathways or those associate
degree pathways in fields ofinterest.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
Yeah, that makes sense.
A few years ago well, manyyears ago I had all my three
kids go through communitycollege, but when they were in
high school, the summer betweenninth and 10th grade, I had them
start taking community collegecourses.
We didn't have a formal dualenrollment program here, so I
always made sure that they took,for example, sociology, because
(17:22):
it's not offered in high school.
It wouldn't conflict, right.
Art, history, psychology, kindof the social sciences and
humanities.
That wouldn't conflict.
I found that the math and thescience was not a good idea at
the time, right?
I don't know if things arechanging, and I would imagine
you have to have really goodcoordination between the K-12
(17:43):
and the colleges when you wantto start this as early as eighth
grade.
You know so much about dualenrollment and its benefits,
john, so how can collegesbroaden the benefits of dual
enrollment?
Speaker 2 (17:59):
Yeah, this is a question that we focus a lot of
our research on, focus a lot ofour research on, like, how can
we fully realize the potentialof offering college courses to
students in high school as notjust a lever for an acceleration
into and through college, butreally as a college access and
equity lever as well to addresschallenges that we're seeing
around declining collegeenrollment rates, generally
(18:22):
increasing questioning of thevalue of higher education and
concerns about affordability.
So, by you know what we see andwe see when this is done well,
is that implementing dualenrollment as a college access
strategy to really any highschool students and all high
school students, especiallythose who are on the margins of
college, maybe questioning is itworth it, is it?
(18:43):
For me, providing some collegecourse experience in high school
can be extremely beneficial andthe sort of research, the real
sort of evidence base, reallybears this out as well.
Really, any type of course canbe beneficial, but especially
well-taught, field-alignedcourses that are both sort of
(19:06):
I'm getting exposure to acollege-level course and having
that general college knowledgebuilding effect, but also have
that connection to purpose andinterest for the students.
Wow, I didn't know that I couldstudy drones in college.
I thought college was X, buthere I'm seeing college can be Y
, z and ABC as well.
It's like all these differentthings.
(19:27):
So it really is an opportunityfor community colleges
especially to showcase theirprograms, all of their programs,
including their appliedbachelor's degrees, including
their transfer pathways to localuniversities, and to use that
to not just push students intocollege but to pull them in
because they are connected andinterested and engaged and it
(19:48):
taps into their motivation andtaps into their talents.
That is essentially connectingguided pathways, reforms to high
school dual enrollment programswith a focus on college access
and equity, which we call dualenrollment equity pathways or
(20:09):
DEEP.
So we've studied this DEEPframework and described these
different practices in that DEEPframework, as well as how
colleges and their K-12 partnersare connecting on a shared
vision and purpose around dualenrollment as an access and
equity lever and then making theinvestments to not just do the
(20:32):
status quo dual enrollmentpractices, which has sort of
resulted in more of anacceleration dual enrollment for
students who are alreadyuniversity-bound mindset and
approach that hasn't investedmuch in dual enrollment, hasn't
invested much in outreach oradvising and supports and has
really created what we see now,which is persistent gaps in
access for Black and Latinostudents, for low-income
students, for first-generationand many other groups that are
(20:56):
not well-served in thistransition students with
disabilities, english learners.
But I think what's encouragingis that we visited places with
better outcomes that areextending their Guided Pathways
reforms into their high schoolsand they're having a lot of
success, not just growing thenumber of students going to
college generally, but alsoincreasing the number of
(21:16):
students who are coming back totheir college after high school.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
Yes, yes, john, you know I want to go a little bit
into the Guided Pathways.
As you know, I've done a ton ofwork in this area and there are
some states like Washington andCalifornia especially
California that gave thecolleges a significant amount of
funding to do Guided Pathwaysfive years and then they
extended it a little bit and ithas its pros and cons, right.
(21:44):
The cons, unfortunately andthis is so much about leadership
is that they never really gotit.
They saw this as a five-yeargrant program, right.
And now that the money isdwindling, well, guided Pathways
is going away and now we'redoing.
Our next flavor of the month, ifyou will, is dual enrollment.
(22:06):
Good leadership, exceptionalleadership, recognizes Guided
Pathways is not a program, isnot a grant.
It takes a student journeyframework and it's about
continually improving ourpractices along that student
journey.
It's about continuallyimproving our practices along
that student journey.
So for colleges, that still,because it's been the language,
right, john, everybody kind ofunderstands the pillars.
(22:28):
It's what's been used forever,right?
Dual enrollment nicely alignsand is part of guided pathways.
Right.
Through dual enrollment, you'rehelping clarify the path for
students, you're helping thementer a path, stay on the path,
right is when they're at thecollege, but the ensure learning
that fourth pillar is alsohappening through dual
(22:50):
enrollment.
So the leadership and when Isay leadership it's not just the
college president or the VPsI'm talking about, for example,
the faculty senate president,right, faculty are leaders in
this as well.
I think those that understandthat it's a continuous
improvement framework know thatI can use that framework, I can
use that language, to ensurethat dual enrollment is part of
(23:15):
this framework.
Right, what are you finding?
Are you finding that goodleadership does make that
intentional effort to say thisis a cornerstone of guided
pathways, as was developmentaled reform, or are you finding
that a lot of places they justdon't even remember what that
(23:36):
was.
And now it's the new flavor ofthe month, as some people call
it.
I don't want to diminish dualenrollment and call it flavor of
the month.
I say that as in.
You know how it is in education.
We always got like a newinitiative, right, or some of
them seeing this, as now this isthe hot thing and they forgot
all about the other studentjourney pillars.
Right, what are you seeing?
Speaker 2 (23:57):
Yeah, I think it's.
You know, dual enrollment is anincredibly important on-ramp
into the college and there'sother on-ramps too.
I think we've got to thinkabout the adult incumbent
workers out there, folks inbasic education.
So there's a non-credit program.
So these different like sort ofinflows or on-ramps into
college and dual enrollment Ithink is sort of coming up so
(24:18):
much in discussions because,first off, it's just large and
growing.
Second, it's growing insignificance because otherwise
enrollments are down.
So if you got more high schoolstudents and fewer non-high
school students, it's just alarger share of headcount at a
lot of colleges.
What I'm seeing from leadersthat seem to be dealing well and
having a strong vision arounddual enrollment connected to
(24:39):
their guided pathways orotherwise their student success
reforms at their college,whatever they're calling it um
is a real like enlightenedself-interest and it's it's
enlightened because it's seeinglike a bigger picture, kind of
like a more strategic, like fiveor 10 year out view um, that
that benefits the college, itbenefits the bottom line of the
(25:00):
college but also works towardsthe college's mission and it's
like the right thing to do fortheir community.
But it is requiring investments.
It's requiring some outlay ofresources and investments in the
short term to realize that likelonger term goal and we've
studied this in a few statesOhio, florida and Texas where
(25:24):
it's a couple important tomention a couple of things for
context.
First, there hasn't been anyadditional funding for dual
enrollment students for collegesand in fact, most colleges are
losing money on offering thesedual enrollment courses.
We did an economic analysis ofthis like a year ago.
Dual enrollment courses we didan economic analysis of this a
(25:46):
year ago.
We found on average, collegesare not recouping the total cost
to offer these courses.
The courses can be much cheaperto offer, especially if they're
taught at the high school by ahigh school instructor.
There's just not as many costsper credit.
But they're generallydiscounting tuition and fees
like steeply discounting,oftentimes offering it for free
or getting very littlereimbursement from the K-12 or
from the state for those courses.
(26:09):
So but the leadership are reallyseeing this as a lost leader.
It's really a way to grow thesupply of future college-going
students who are alreadysuccessful in their courses from
high school, their collegecourses, and they're on a
pathway to success andcompletion and transfer at their
(26:30):
college.
And so I think that that's whatwe're hearing, even in context
where there is an additionalfunding where the performance
funding is tuition, you know,because you want to grow the
supply of students coming toyour college and so from that
perspective it really is worthmaking investments in expanding
(26:50):
access.
So casting a wider net in highschool to students who maybe in
the previous conventionalapproaches that have been
described programs of privilege,dual enrollment you're reaching
other students.
You know the sort of studentswho are maybe not on the AP or
honors track in high school.
You're really trying to cast awide net to any and all high
(27:11):
school students, because that'swhere you're going to get the
return in terms of if you canprovide a high quality college
course that lights the fire forlearning and connects to
students' interests and purposeand passion and gives students a
broader view of what college isand can be, they're going to be
much more likely to come backto the community college after
(27:33):
high school instead of not goingto any college.
So this isn't about trying todetract the university-bound
students to the communitycollege after high school.
This is about taking thestudents by which there's
probably in many communitieslike half of high school
graduates are just not going tocollege.
So taking that huge pool ofstudents and trying to get those
(27:53):
students connected to a pathwaywhile they're still in high
school so that they come back tocollege.
And when we've talked tocollege leaders and business
officers in Texas, ohio, inFlorida, they have the
financials They'll show you likethey're looking at their
re-enrollment or yield rates.
They're seeing okay, we got tohire, we're hiring five or six
(28:14):
more advisors, outreachspecialists, you know, for dual
enrollment, but we're seeingthis growing trend of students
coming to us after high school.
So I think that it's I call itenlightened self-interest,
because it does.
You do have to sort of see thatlonger term strategy and make
some upfront investments, butthis is what we're trying to
outline in this deep approach todual enrollment, one that is
(28:38):
focused on the bottom line forcolleges, financially, but also
on the return to mission, likewhat are they trying to do for
their communities?
How are they growing, you know,and realizing their, their
longstanding mission ofproviding accessible and
affordable higher education?
Speaker 1 (28:57):
Yeah, again, it goes back to leadership.
I seen too often there are somecolleges, for example, that
they're in these crazy perpetualstructural deficits and part of
what they do is they look at aparticular program and they go
well, this cost us 300K, we gotto cut it, and then this one
cost us you know, I don't know500K.
(29:20):
We got to cut it, and then thisone cost us 100K, we got to cut
it, and then this one costs us100K, we got to cut it.
And they never do an analysisof whether that program is
actually bringing in money.
So if you have a program thatcosts 300K, you're losing
initially, but over time let'ssay, in retention, that brings
in a million dollars right, it'sa $700,000 gain, right.
(29:45):
And it's rare for leadership todo this kind of analysis, but
the kind of leadership thatdoesn't do it but gets it that
this is a strategy, even thoughit might be costing us some
money.
It's a long-term strategy tohelp students find a path and
come to our college, because wegave them kind of a taste test
(30:05):
right, which, by the way, meansthat we got to implement this
really well, because if thetaste test ain't good, students
are not going to be coming backto your college I have a
question about.
So back to my experience, rightso I was a first-generation
college student and, having gonethrough college and then I
(30:27):
worked with colleges, I wasbetter prepared to help my kids,
right?
So they had the advantage ofnot being first-generation and
there wasn't an official dualenrollment program at the time.
So I kind of created onebecause I knew that the colleges
offered college courses forhigh schoolers.
By the way, John, the processby which to take these courses
(30:49):
was before the pandemic was socumbersome Talk about barriers.
Oh my gosh, we had to have wetsignatures from the principal
and the counselor and if therewas a smudge I kid you not, if
there was a smudge on the coursethat you wanted to take, then
they wouldn't accept the form.
It took a frigging pandemic toget rid of that stupid wet
(31:15):
signature form and finally theythey they're using digital right
.
So my question is you have thosefamilies that are not first
generation that know, like I'mgoing to have my kid take AP by
the way, I hate AP, I hate thecollege board.
I can do a whole podcast onthat.
(31:36):
The bullshit that they makethese kids go through is just.
It's just I don't want to startthrowing F-bombs Anyway.
So but dual enrollment is coolbecause it's not based on.
It's going to end with thissuper high, standardized test
that, by the way, you can takean AP course and it still
(31:58):
wouldn't have the same contentat a regular college it wouldn't
even be the same often and thenyou can get a two or three and
some colleges won't accept itbecause they want at least a
four.
It's just a terrible system.
It just it makes the inequitieseven worse.
But are you finding that youhave families like me that are
(32:20):
in our first generation,generation, that a lot of the
kids that take this, a lot ofthe students, I should say, that
take this, are those from theones that typically do take the
AP, the ones that do havefunding to do stuff over the
summer and academic preparationover the summer, and then, on
top of that, they're doing dualenrollment and not enough of our
disproportionately impactedminoritized students are taking
(32:44):
it?
Are you seeing some kind oftrend?
Speaker 2 (32:46):
Yeah.
So I mean, I think, like rightnow, if you look like a national
sort of survey, sample surveyof the 2019 high school
graduates, about a third ofgraduates had taken a dual
enrollment course in high schooland in our research we visited
places where their participationrates were much higher than a
third.
So they're getting like a halfhalf of their high school
(33:09):
graduates to take a dualenrollment course.
So what are they doing to getthat majority of high school
students to take a collegecourse, not just the ones who
are kind of in the AP honorsuniversity track, sort of like
the way you know, I mean, andwhat we've seen?
So in our research we'vedescribed this deep framework.
There's four different practiceareas around what we saw at
(33:33):
community colleges that werefurther ahead in their guided
pathways implementation.
We visited in Texas and Floridathat also had a ton of dual
enrollment students Texas andFlorida that also had a ton of
dual enrollment students andthey had closed the gaps in
access for Black and Latino andlow-income students and had
really strong dual enrollmentoutcomes.
So we went to six of thosesites and we described this deep
set of practices and they hadreally broadened access,
(33:56):
broadened the benefits of dualenrollments and what we saw is
the four areas outreach,alignment, advising and support
the outreach the first area.
I mean there were just so manydifferent tactics and things
that these partnerships weredoing to not, you know, just get
the folks who are going to seekthis out.
You know, the high schoolerswith parents, with the college
(34:18):
education that knew to be askingabout AP, knew to be asking
about dual enrollment.
Education that knew to beasking about AP knew to be
asking about dual enrollment andinstead what they're doing is
they were building in dualenrollment into the default
sequence, the default ninth to12th grade pathway that really
would be put on any student'splan when they came into high
school.
They were increasing knowledgeand awareness about dual
(34:38):
enrollment, starting inelementary and middle school,
oftentimes in partnerships withcollege going sort of college
knowledge programs like AVID andother programs that you know
have projects throughout theyear for like fifth, sixth and
seventh graders to learn andresearch colleges.
They were saying did you knowyou could take these free dual
enrollment courses?
They were, you know, doing alot with the parent and family
(34:59):
engagement.
So you know, at the schools, inall the languages, for the
parents out, at civicorganizations, community
organization, boys and GirlsClub, churches, other sort of
civic groups, local NAACPchapters.
Like really getting the word outabout these opportunities,
because that's what you hear.
A lot is like, well, I justdidn't know, or I wish I would
have known sooner, that I couldhave taken these free college
(35:21):
courses in high school and thennot just getting the word out.
But you know, as students arecoming into the programs you
know holding like a parentuniversity or a dual enrollment
student parent info night, tosay, ok, you're going to start
in dual enrollment courses thissemester.
Here's what it means.
Like this is a college course,this is not a high school course
.
Let's say like level set on thecollege expectations and
(35:43):
parents are going to needsupport.
Please, like reach out ifyou're struggling.
The worst thing you can do isnot reach out for help.
So kind of norming on all ofthis, help seeking behavior,
telling parents what it's goingto be like.
So all of this is a part of theoutreach strategy, focusing not
just on the wealthy and thewider high schools in the
service area, but going to theTitle I schools, the schools
(36:04):
with large shares of minorityfamilies and students, and
saying, well, why don't we havea robust dual enrollment
offering at this high school andthen going to the students who
are gaining momentum in theirCTE programs.
In high school they're takingthree or four CTE courses in a
(36:25):
high school CTE program.
They clearly have talents,interests, they have a career in
mind and thinking how are wegoing to bring in post-secondary
into that CTE program?
Because we know that you'regoing to need a certificate or
applied associate or appliedbaccalaureate or even a
bachelor's degree if you want tohave a good career in this
field.
So in this way I mean thesepartnerships were really
(36:48):
inspiring because they werebreaking down the legacy of race
and class-based tracking thatstill exists in our education
system tracking into theuniversity track or the
vocational track, the CTE,versus academic tracking,
between just residentialsegregation of schools by going
to the Title I schools and youknow we did this research in
(37:12):
Texas and Florida.
You know, and people were, youknow they weren't talking about
equity per se, but they weretalking about fairness and like
what's right about fairness andlike what's right and also you
know that's where they're comingfrom and they're also you know
the leaders were also sayinglike this is a way to grow the
supply of students in ourcommunities who are just going
to go to college.
So I think there's a lot ofreasons to invest in this sort
(37:34):
of approach, but I should.
The last point I'll say is thatyou know this that is not the
status quo of these dualenrollment programs.
The status quo is a lack ofoutreach.
Just come and ask if you'reinterested and if you can make
it through the 50 hoops of theapplication process, including
all the wet signatures or thesend a form home to get your
(37:57):
parents to approve the maturecontent of this college course,
or you know, that's anotherexample you know then we'll
enroll you and you know we don'twon't provide any advising.
You know, seek out advising ifyou need it and we don't need to
invest much in the supports inthe classroom because you should
be an accelerated student.
(38:18):
You should have this allfigured out.
That's the status quo.
It's very different than thedeep approach where there's a
lot of investment in theoutreach to get the word out and
the supports to get students inthe advising, to help students,
you know, explore the coursesand post-secondary degree
programs and transfer pathwaysand how the courses align, and
to keep the rigor and thecontent standards high of those
(38:40):
college courses, but to open upthe door wider to those courses
by increasing the supports inthose courses so that students
are successful.
I think a lot of times thereason folks want to limit
access to dual enrollmentprograms is because they don't
want students to fail, andrightfully so.
Students should not be failingon their dual enrollment courses
.
They generally don't.
These courses have like 90, 95%course pass rates very high
(39:04):
course pass rates but oftentimesthat's used as a way to limit
access and I think we need tochange the mindset there that we
don't limit access because wedon't want students to fail.
We increase supports because wedon't want students to fail.
Speaker 1 (39:19):
John, what does DEEP stand for again Dual Enrollment,
equity Pathways and what arethe components to that again?
Speaker 2 (39:27):
So there's four practice areas outreach to
underserved students in schools.
Alignment of dual enrollment tocollege degrees and careers.
Advising to help studentsexplore their interests and
develop post-secondary plans.
And supporting students anddelivering high quality
(39:48):
instruction.
Speaker 1 (39:50):
Beautiful.
So you said something thatstarted to make me laugh a
little bit, because you saidthat places like Texas and
Florida they're doing a prettygood job with the minoritized
students and you actually seenWell, some places where we just
went to six sites, so you know,but it was.
Speaker 2 (40:10):
it was interesting to hear like just folks on the
front lines really operatingfrom a sense of fairness and
justice for their community,despite the sort of political
taboos and people feeling veryrestricted and worried about
their political contexts.
Speaker 1 (40:25):
Right, and that's why I smiled a little bit because
even if it's six colleges right,you're talking about
institutions that areeffectively an anti-DEI state
politically.
And in my own work I've donesome national work I find very
fascinating when I dig into someother program data and what I
(40:47):
tell and I love California, I doa lot of my work here is that
I'm finding I have found it'snot all colleges, but I find
this kind of theme.
I like to see more research onthis.
I find this kind of theme.
I like to see more research onthis.
I'm hypothesizing here, basedon my experience and then even
(41:08):
on the six that you went to,that some of these anti-DEI
states especially the way peopleare feeling and they're like
walking on eggshells theiroutcomes for students of color
tend to be better than many ofthe places that reach out to me
and ask me to help them out inCalifornia, and it shocks them
(41:29):
to know that they have betteroutcomes for students of color
because this is a very strongDEIA state, Right, and I tell
them, I say you know what it is,they just do the work.
They just do the work.
It's not performative, it's nottweeting out stuff, it's not
(41:51):
social media this and correctingpeople's language and thinking
that's equity work, and theyactually do the work.
Had paid a ton of money to doguided pathways.
They did it because it's theright thing to do and they're
(42:13):
continuing to do guided pathwaysand folding in the dual
enrollment and then, within thatframework, you have what you
called deep right, the outreach,alignment, advising and support
.
They actually do the work.
When you do the work and you'reintentional about these
students who aredisproportionately impacted, you
tend to see results.
Right Now, I don't want to makea blackened statement about
California, because I work withmany of the colleges that do do
(42:37):
the work, but so many don't, soit just kind of made me go again
.
Oh my gosh.
I wish there was a researchstudy on this, on states that
are anti-DEI versus that arevery pro, and why some of the
states have better outcomes forstudents of color.
Right as we wind down here, Ihave a question.
You can respond to what I justsaid if you'd like.
Speaker 2 (42:59):
Yeah, well, I guess I would say I haven't done
fieldwork or visited sites inCalifornia.
I think, though, just a generalobservation, from looking at
like national, like collegelevel data, is there just so
much variation like even within,especially within states.
You know, we do these rankingswhere we say like how's, how's
Texas and Florida doing on theirtransfer outcomes compared to
(43:22):
other states or whatever, butthere's so much like variation
among colleges within states orwhatever, but there's so much
like variation among collegeswithin states.
And then, when we look at thisat a partnership level so we've
done like the looking at thecommunity college, university as
a pair, how they're performingcompared to other partnerships,
or the community college and thehigh school as a pair compared
to others there's just so muchvariation.
You know even more at that pairlevel and I think it's you know
(43:59):
to try to like, attribute themlike what.
Yes, and you know, really, inall of these scenarios there's
room for further sort of likeimprovement and growth in most
places.
I do think you know we visited,we looked at all these payers
in Texas and Florida that hadthe strongest results and that
had the largest numbers ofstudents and had broad access
(44:21):
and closed gaps in access forBlack and Latino low-income
students, etc.
Black and Latino low-incomestudents, et cetera, and they
were doing well.
You know they had strongoutcomes.
But in many places, like, therewas still a lot of room for
improvement.
You know it's like, well, youknow your, your college going
rate is is 75%.
That's higher than the sort ofgeneral average of 65, but you
(44:43):
know, 75% of dual enrollmentstudents went to college, 25%
didn't.
So like, what's going on withthose students?
And so it's like kind of likenobody's perfect.
There's always room forimprovement.
There's always room.
And absolutely just as apersonal reflection from the
during the very politicallycharged times which is still the
case around anti-DEI andanti-equity efforts in
(45:05):
politically conservative statesand anti-equity efforts in
politically conservative states,it really makes me wonder, kind
of like, what is lost from thattaboo from the work.
You know, kind of the colorevasiveness that folks focus on
(45:27):
low income students, whichobviously is important and
needed, but it does.
It does feel like, you know,something's lost for sure
because of that, because they'rereally not able to have the
real conversations or be a partof their official acts and do
the work, like you said, and Ithink that that is what was
(45:49):
really inspiring from all ofthis research is just the
commitment.
And as much as we talk aboutlike best practices right, you
know, like what are thesepractice areas?
It's the people man, like it's.
You know we distill them down topractices and strategies, but
it's just because the counselor,the advisor, like saw something
that didn't look right andfigured out a way to fix it, and
(46:13):
then that becomes like thepractice or the strategy.
So it really comes down topeople.
It really comes down to like asense of fairness that I've seen
and a dissonance there, likethis doesn't seem right, it
doesn't, shouldn't have to bethis way.
It shouldn't have to be that ifyou want to take a dual
enrollment course, you've got topass this Accuplacer test.
You know it shouldn't, itshouldn't that you just have to.
It was like came down to howyou know how was your morning
(46:36):
that morning, you know how wasyour trip into school, and then
that sort of determines whetheror not you can, you know, take
your college coursework in highschool.
So like folks are seeing thatthey're like that doesn't seem
right.
We should maybe look tomultiple or alternate measures
for placement.
That was that's been a bigbarrier in other states.
Speaker 1 (46:56):
So yeah, seeing the issues and not talking about it
only, but then, like again, justdo the work.
You know it's interesting.
There's a microcosm of thathappening in California, where
the Central Valley is probablyperhaps the most politically red
, and in that place some of thecolleges there are leaders in
dual enrollment, they're leadersin guided pathways and they
(47:19):
have pretty good outcomes withstudents of color.
So again, it's just ahypothesis.
Speaker 2 (47:27):
One thing that's unique for dual enrollment
nationally is that it's it'svery invest in it to address,
you know, affordability ofcollege, to increase college
(47:51):
access, and I think that's good.
I think we want these programsto really work for every student
and they haven't, historically,they haven't fully lived up to
that potential yet.
But in many places, you know, Ihope to say a growing number of
colleges and their partners arereally kind of seeing the full
(48:14):
potential and I think that folks, if you talk to practitioners
who are doing the work, I thinkthey largely get this, they see
the potential here.
But it's really about, okay,how do we get leadership, how do
we get the investments on boardto realize this potential?
Not just because it's the rightthing to do, but because this
is increasingly, you know,important for the bottom line,
(48:37):
for colleges, and I think, asenrollment trends are going to
continue, it's going to beincreasingly, you know, colleges
won't be able to, they won'tafford, they won't be able to
afford not to take, you know, adifferent approach to dual
enrollment.
Speaker 1 (48:54):
And so, to wind down here, this last question, John,
because we want to move beyondthe the all the talk about
equity and again, do the work,just do the work.
Let's say there are listenershere.
They're the newly minteddirector of dual enrollment.
(49:15):
Their institution has apartnership with one out of the
10 high schools that they haveand they offer just one or two
courses, and this dualenrollment director has been
brought in to move beyond thetalk, because there's been a lot
of talk for many years.
They finally got the positionup and running.
(49:36):
They finally have someresources to put behind it.
What would be your advice tothis new director of dual
enrollment to help them besuccessful in their first couple
of years?
Well, beyond, right, but likewhat are some things that you
(49:56):
really need to do in this firstor two years?
Speaker 2 (50:00):
Well, I am a researcher so I'm always drawn
to the data side of it.
So I think like, starting fromthat, um, quantitative I'll
speak qualitative andquantitatively but like
quantitatively, if I was in anew position getting there, I
would want to just look to seelike who are all my high school
partners, sort of in rank orderby size of current dual
enrollment, and then for everyeach of those high schools, I
(50:21):
want to see like what's the sortof racial breakdown of that
high school?
Is it a title one school?
Is it serving like a lot of lowincome families or not?
And try to think like widelyabout, like you know, there
might be some high schools thatdon't have a lot of students but
or even no students.
But who's in our service area,like what's the pool of
potential high school studentsin the area, and to really think
(50:42):
about at that school by schoollevel, because each one of those
schools is a building, is aprincipal, and then you know who
the person is that you need toreach out to.
And if I'm looking at that list, I want to, okay, I'm thinking
like what are our big partnersthat we can really strengthen?
What are the partners thatmaybe should be bigger, because
they've got like 2000 studentsenrolled in their school and
(51:04):
we've got 20 of them in dualenrollment.
Where are my Title I highschools Like which are the
schools that are kind ofunderrepresented?
So I want to think on aschool-by-school level with that
disaggregated data and in eachschool I know, as a principal,
that I can reach out to so thatcan be very specific into
partnership development.
You've got to build arelationship, you know, and it's
(51:26):
going to you kind of have to,you got to go to them, you got
to act with them, um, um, amindset of service, because dual
enrollment is one of a millionthings that a high school
principal is doing.
It might not be the highestpriority but, um, that I what
we've heard they really doappreciate consistent, sustained
, reliable, you know, followingup, being reliable effort for
(51:48):
outreach.
So I'm thinking, I'm thinkingabout that, I'm thinking like
qualitatively, you know, talkingto students that we have, or
rapid dual enrollment students,like, what do they want?
What do they like on theseprograms?
What do they want?
What are the barriers?
You know that maybe they're init, sure, but like what are they
hearing from their friendsaround why they didn't take dual
enrollment?
So, understanding what thebarriers are and really kind of
(52:10):
thinking about how do we startbusting these barriers, the
application, you know, the lackof awareness, the lack of course
offering.
So, getting at the barriers and,you know, I think, kind of
getting to that, to that data, Iknow, if the listeners in
California you know, which hasbeen, I think, historically more
at the college based dualenrollment.
(52:32):
There is the CCAP agreementsthat allow high school courses
to be, or college courses to be,offered at the high school.
So one of the benefits ofoffering the college course at
the high school is it's a muchyou know there's not as many
access barriers because studentsdon't have to travel to the
college, they can take thecourse during the school day.
So thinking about those realbig structural barriers that
(52:55):
have a disproportionate effectand are creating the results in
terms of gaps and access.
So that's all about access.
But then I'd really be thinkingabout how, if we're going to
double or triple this focused,triple dual enrollment focused
on the high schools andcommunities that are the least
well represented right now, howare we going to make sure that
(53:16):
we're going to keep the qualityhigh and increase the supports
in the classroom so that we keepour 90 and 95 percent course
pass rates for these dualenrollment courses or whatever
they are, our 90 and 95% coursepass rates for these dual
enrollment courses or whateverthey are, and and offer just any
college course to give thatcollege experience and make
students boost that confidenceof like I can be a college
student.
(53:37):
A college professor said I cando this.
That's all like the magic, thespecial sauce.
But then also how, what's theadvising and other sort of
supports and instruction to helpstudents see how that college
course can fit into a longerterm game plan for them after
high school, a post-secondarygame plan, because they're
(53:58):
getting exposure to thecollege's programs, the
college's meta majors orwhatever.
You know, all that good guide,pathway stuff around helping
students explore, you know,connect to their interests, have
an inspiring course, build aplan.
How is that going to extend andstart in dual enrollment and
really be an on-ramp into thecollege's offerings, including,
(54:18):
and very much especiallyincluding, the transfer pathways
to bachelor's degrees andbeyond?
Speaker 1 (54:26):
What beautiful advice to help someone do the work.
John, thank you for that.
Thank you so much forparticipating in the Student
Success Podcast.
Speaker 2 (54:37):
Yeah, thanks so much for having me.
It was a great conversation and, you know, stay in touch.
I want to know, I want to keeplearning what you're learning.
Speaker 1 (54:44):
Oh, for sure, We'll do that.
Good to see you again, john.
Thank you for listening to theStudent Success Podcast.
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(55:05):
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