May 19, 2025 • 35 mins
Erika Bailey (she|her) has served the University of Toronto for nearly 25 years, specializing in international graduate student advising and coaching. With an MA in Adult Education from OISE|UT, an MA in Leadership from Royal Roads University, and Solutions-focused Brief Coaching, her passion is to support internationally trained lawyers and law students with the University of Toronto’s Faculty of Law’s graduate programs, specifically the GPLLM and the LL.M. She coaches and advises them in their orientation to, and engagement with, the rigorous recruitment processes for future law licensing candidates, as well as on their licensing processes. In particular, fostering communities of kindness and belonging through mentorship, networking, and transparent dialogue are at the heart of her work.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:16):
Hello everybody. Welcome to another episode of
Studying Law Around the World. In this episode, I'll be glad to
have Erica Bailey with me. She's the graduate career
advisor at the Faculty of Law atUniversity of Toronto, and she
has been in the podcast before. We've done a few episodes
before, and we do a special format when she joins me here.
(00:37):
So, Erica, can you tell our listeners a little bit about
yourself and also tell us a little recap on what we're doing
here together? Hi everybody, It's great to meet
you. My name is Erica Bailey and I
use she and her pronouns and as Claudio says, I'm the graduate
career advisor. I have the great distinction and
privilege to be able to support internationally trained lawyers
(00:59):
in the global professional Master of Laws and Master of
Laws programs. And when Claudio was still an
incoming student, as you probably have quickly learned
his very eager to outreach to new people kind of person and he
said I'd like to interview you about, I can't even remember the
topic labour market or resumes. I don't even remember and I
(01:21):
thought, you know, my story and my insights aren't as
interesting as what it might be for all of you who are listening
today, because I think it's important to understand what's
it like to go into an international program of study?
What are some of the considerations?
What's it like to live through it?
And so Claudio, I think is a perfect specimen.
So I invited that we turn the tables a little bit.
(01:42):
So we you're used to hearing Claudio doing the interviews.
And so in this time I'll be interviewing Claudio to really
think about his own experience, not just as you know, in the
program here at the University of Toronto and the Global
professional Master of Laws, butbroadly as an internationally
trained lawyer, new in Canada. What does that mean for him and
his career and his licensing journey, his learning about the
(02:04):
law here? So that's why we are doing it
this way. Today amazing.
And we'll, we'll continue on this journey.
On the previous episodes, we talked about, you know, living
my home country, what was it like, what I had to prepare,
what was in my luggage, and thenwent on to talk about how the
first semester felt like. Talked a little bit about the
recruitment, the first few exams.
(02:25):
So it's just been very interesting to do all of that.
And honestly, for me, it's been some kind of, you know,
journaling, you know, where I get the chance to go back and,
and listen to the thoughts of what was my mindset back then or
what things I was thinking. And this year has just gone by
so quickly, especially the academic year, the way it's set
(02:46):
out. And I'm now taking my last two
courses of the GPL. Can you believe that?
Eric I can and I cannot. Every year it feels faster and
faster, but I also know it goes so quickly.
I can't believe like we, we had a really hard winter this year
and so this whole winter semester has passed without us
having a conversation. And I think it might be
interesting to hear about your experiences of studying law
(03:09):
while in one of the coldest winters in recent memory in
Canada. How did winter?
How did your winter term go? Well, it's very interesting.
I feel like I get asked that by my family and friends a lot.
And one thing that is very real is that you just really feel
cold when you go outside, right?So literally like it's going to
(03:29):
the train station or going, you know, from your car to point A
to B. But usually you don't feel the
cold as much. What I really noticed that maybe
I hadn't noticed as much before is really the amount of sunlight
you have every day, right? So it, it does in a way, like
take a toll on your body. You know, when the sun comes out
just like 9:00 AM and goes away at 4:00 PM, there's definitely
(03:52):
some some effects that that doesyour body.
I feel like, and that was one ofthe the big observations for me
during this summer semester. But you know, it, it's part of
the experience. And it was quite nice, you know,
getting to see the snow, gettingto see the campus all white.
So I feel like that that was oneof the highlights of studying
during the winter. Did you get out and play in the
snow at all? Yep, Yep, Head should do that,
(04:14):
right? So we had a little baby and we
just had to introduce her to thesnow as well.
So yeah, just had a good time. Great.
That's wonderful. And So what were some of the
courses like for you over the winter term and how are you
finding it, especially someone who's civil law trained, how are
you finding the comparison between common law and civil
law? And how are you, how are you
thinking now that might be different than when you either
(04:36):
started in January or even looking further back to
September? Absolutely.
So last semester we had admin law and tort law.
And I feel like the the obvious big difference is the difference
that common law uses precedence,right.
So use cases. And it was very interesting
especially in tarts how we studied a lot of UK cases and
(04:58):
then a few USA cases and then how, how it kind of evolved in
Canada. So it was just very interesting
to see the very like international nature of some of
the subjects. Whereas in a civil law
jurisdiction, or at least in Brazil specifically, most of it
is, is very much you go to the code, you read the code and you
(05:19):
see, you know, yes, no, So it's,it's a lot less nuanced in no
way, at least from my personal perspective, from what I was
able to gather, but it, it was very interesting.
It was just a semester full of learning.
Definitely very interesting subjects to, to go over how much
administrative law is in our day-to-day life.
(05:39):
It's just incredible to see. And then tarts, we hear about,
you know, slip and fall and all these things and we don't maybe
don't give too much thought about how that process goes, but
it was just very, very interesting to study.
And those were classes I took all throughout the semester.
And then at the end of the semester, I took an intensive
course negotiation, and that wasjust very, very interesting to
(06:03):
different than the the semester long classes.
The negotiation course was a lotmore practical.
So we got the chance to first ofall, get to talk with a lot of
colleagues that I hadn't talked much with, which was amazing
because just our cohort is so big, right?
So we don't really get you chat a lot of with everybody.
And it was just great. She in no way meets these people
(06:24):
that I'm sharing a classroom fora year now.
And on another note, it was justgreat to, you know, learn more
about what negotiation principles look like.
We hear about negotiation soundsfun and all of that, but there's
actually kind of like a science behind it, how you should go
about it, how you know, how you start a negotiation makes a
difference and, and all of thosethings.
(06:45):
So it was this is very, very enjoyable semester.
Good to hear. I mean, I, I, I think you know,
absolutely you're learning a lotabout the content.
And I'm curious, can you, can you identify if at all ways in
which you think or respond to information on the study of law
differently than you did before?Have you learned some skills or
(07:06):
perhaps there's been a challengethis semester that perhaps is
really made you dig deep and andtry new resiliency skills that
would be important for. You absolutely.
So on a first note, of course there is, I feel like there's a
maturity, a point to it. So when I was doing my
bachelors, I was too, you know, out of high school, like as a,
as a first opportunity you don'tget, you don't spend too much
(07:29):
time thinking about how you learn early on.
So as you mature, you kind of know better what's effective for
you, what's not. So there's definitely that point
where I no longer try to copy what everybody else is doing,
but I know a little bit better of like this is how I should
take my notes so that I can learn a little more.
But something that happened in the semester as well is that we
(07:51):
had a few changes at the faculty.
And now the way we get tested onexams changed a little bit.
And because of that, it also made most of us change the way
we were preparing for exams, right?
So beforehand, we were able to bring just a, an extensive
amount of material. And now in this new approach,
we're not doing as much. So it definitely made me think
(08:14):
about, you know, how can I make better notes?
How can I use post dates and andhighlighter and all these things
to make after that? I can go through my notes
quickly during an exam. So it was just an interesting
semester to to get adapted to change.
We always know that change is the biggest constant in life,
but it was definitely an interesting challenge, you know,
to go about this again, to go about beforehand, I was I was
(08:36):
taking this like 100 page file to an exam because I'm like, if
I don't remember anything, I'll be able to find it there, right.
But you know, in the end, it wasjust kind of like a comfort in
the back of your mind that you'dhave.
And now it was a lot more, you know, to the point a lot more
what does really matter for me to take to this exam?
(08:57):
Let me make sure that I have this summarized and that I know
how to get to it quickly. So it was definitely interesting
in this sense, basically trying a new.
That's great. I mean, in some ways being able
to be discerning, to really understand the material, just
not know where to find things because finding material like
finding information is not what people need.
(09:17):
They need lawyers to be really critically thinking about it, to
have a strong analysis to to make sense of it, to know what's
relevant, what's not, to be ableto do quick recall as necessary.
And so it sounds like you've started developing that skill in
a good way. Yeah, absolutely.
It's so interesting how in different stages of your life,
some skills are more necessary than others, right.
(09:38):
So I guess when you have that comfort of having all the
material in front of you, maybe you don't necessarily exercise
that muscle as much of discernment and of summarizing
and of focusing on what really matters as a whole.
And then when you know, this situations put you in a position
where you know, you kind of haveto do that, then you tend to
(09:59):
develop that even more. So it was definitely a good
opportunity to to get to the point to, you know, develop
those skills further and to justreally test it out and see what
worked best, which I think is really valuable in life.
You just test something out, seeif it works out, and if it works
out, you stick to it. Or if you see there's any way to
(10:19):
improve it, you do it for the next round.
So that's that's what's winter semester was a lot about.
Yeah, for sure. And I think that winter
semesters all like to me, the word that is often used as
resiliency. But resiliency can look and feel
a lot like many things, right? But it sounds to me like that
creative engagement to say, right, something's changed.
(10:40):
And that is such a remarkable skill.
And it's it's so necessary in somany areas of our lives, not
just academics, but also in yourcareers.
Absolutely. No, I, I totally have to agree
with that. I love that you said that
resiliency looks different and looks like a lot of different
things because it really does. I feel like we only really think
about it when, when you know, somebody asks something
(11:02):
specific. Are you hearing inside or you
hear somebody's experience? But it really is after all this
opportunity that you get to, youknow, adapt again or are you do
something differently that you're used to doing in in a
different way. So it was it was interesting to
see. There's this common joke that
(11:23):
goes around talking about when you join a new firm or when you
start a new job. They basically say that it's
basically you are a new character in the 55th season of
that show, right? So everybody has all the inside
jokes, everybody know what's going on and you're just
basically training there to figure it out.
And I feel like life does that to you time and time again.
(11:46):
So be it a team changing side, your firm, be, you know, going
into a different department at the university or just going
into a class with classmates that didn't choose to take that
same class. It it happens more than we we'd
like to acknowledge maybe, and it's just good.
It's good to be out of your comfort, even though it's super
cliche to say that growth happens out of your comfort
(12:09):
zone, but it's really a true statement. 100% and they use
that point, I think, because I know you've not only learned it
by doing it, but you've learned it through hearing it.
And so for those listeners who are familiar with your very,
very beautifully written at LinkedIn activities, they know
that you have been interviewing,even had created a little bit of
(12:29):
a project for yourself interviewing lawyers here in
Canada. And so I'm curious if you'd like
to discuss some of the, what wasthe seed of that idea and how
did it go? And what are some of the some of
the things you've learned through your networking that you
think you'd like to share here? Absolutely.
So when I first started at UFT, and I think I even mentioned
(12:50):
this in one of the podcasts we recorded together, there was a
big celebration for the 75 yearsof the universe of the Faculty
of Law, specifically in the university.
And we got to attend an event ina gala and all of that.
And we even sat together, right,And sat close to each other.
And honestly, it was just so incredible for me to be sitting
(13:12):
in front of, you know, all of these basically legal royalty of
Canada. Yeah.
Basically there were, you know, former Supreme Court justices,
ambassadors, judges, professors,partners of law firms.
So there was a lot of very important people altogether in
the same conference. And it was just very inspiring
to see. But I also felt like, you know,
(13:34):
at first, it's awesome that I get to belong into this.
So I felt that strongly. And then I was also thinking,
how can I engage with these people?
Like, I want to talk to them, right?
This is a quick event, but I also want to get to know a
little bit more about their lives, about their stories.
And after that event, and I've been active on LinkedIn for a
(13:54):
while, but I got to see a few people that I followed in the US
and what they were doing as JD students, they had a challenge
to meet with 100 lawyers throughtheir three years of law school.
So if you think about it, three years, 100 people, it's not that
big of a deal, right? Like it's challenging.
It's one every two weeks or so. Exactly, yes, and, and all of
(14:17):
these things just got cooking inmy mind and I'm like, you know
what, I want to meet with 75 lawyers because it's 75 years of
the faculty. I want to meet with the lawyers
here. Let's do it.
So I just basically put it out there on on LinkedIn that I was
going to start this project and I was overwhelmed by the the
(14:37):
openness of the community. You know, so many people told me
incredible things. I've heard things like my days
are very stress filled, high stakes.
I have to do everything with so much care.
And sometimes when a student reaches out and I get to just
lightheartedly talk with them for a couple of minutes, it just
really breaks out the tension ofmy day.
(14:59):
I'm like, Oh my goodness, am I helping you by by asking your
questions? It was just very, very nice to
get the opportunity to know people in different generations
to hear about their law school memories.
A lot of the people that I interviewed are UFT alumni,
right? So it was just very interesting
to hear all the different thingsthat they took out of
(15:21):
university. They would ask me about the name
of a few professors and I'm like, I'm, I'm not sure if
they're there sure or not, but it was just very interesting to
get to know the community a little better.
And I, and I feel in a way even more a part of it now that I'm
connected to, you know, different generations of the,
the university as I went about the project as well.
(15:41):
I got the chance to partner withthe advancement office and will
be coming out with a booklet soon with insights from these
lawyers that I got to interview.So their quotes picture.
So we'll get you to know who is the person behind the quotes
that I have been sharing. And I'm so excited for that part
of the project as well. I'm so excited for that as well.
And I, I think you know Claudio,there might be people listening
(16:03):
saying 75 new people and you reach 75 when how many people
you, you managed to reach your goal, right?
That's right. That's right.
So as I was about to start my summer job, I was like, I have
to finish this because I don't know how my schedule is going to
be and all of that. So I definitely reached out to a
lot of people during the month of March and most of our coffee
(16:27):
chats happened between March andApril.
And yeah, I was able to actuallymeet with a little over 75
because what happened is that I had to reach out to a lot of
people to get you here back, right?
So I probably reached out to youover 200 lawyers.
What ended up happening is that when I finished my 75, then a
few people got back to me and they were like, so sorry, I was
(16:49):
so busy, I got your e-mail. Would you still wanna meet?
And I'm like, absolutely, let's do this.
Great, I'm glad you you said no,no, that you didn't, you didn't
say no that I think it's really good that you keep those
connections going. I imagine that there are.
So for those who are listening, you probably can guess that
Claudia was pretty extroverted, well at least presents as such
(17:10):
and so really comfortable going out and meeting new people.
But was there a moment where youfelt a little nervous there
probably be helpful for those who are maybe a little more
introverted or a little uncertain about how do you
approach Canadian people like how do you talk to Canadians?
So I'm curious, what did you learn about talking to Canadian
lawyers that might be helpful from an international
(17:30):
perspective? Oh, absolutely.
Yeah. Thank you so much for bringing
that up. I think I was very lucky to
actually have coffee chats with just tremendous, generous people
right at the beginning. That helped me to get a good
start. A few of the actually one of the
first lawyers that I talked with, she asked me like, how
many of these have you done before?
I think I don't know how well itwas going, but she brought this
(17:52):
up and I'm like, I'm just starting.
And she was like, how about I lead this coffee chat today just
so you know how it's usually done and you can kind of like
take the most out of it because maybe you don't know what
questions to ask about what I'vedone and all of that.
So I was really like, so lucky to get that kind of mentorship
(18:14):
about how to go about it, coffeechat in practice that I couldn't
like see it going that well without this kind of guidance,
you know? So why don't you uncover a
little bit what does a good coffee?
How does a good coffee chat go? People want to know.
Absolutely. So I think it always starts with
respectful invite. So I was usually going to reach
(18:36):
out to people on LinkedIn or through e-mail asking, telling
them a little bit about what I was doing.
And I always make a point, made a point to try and find
something unique about those people, right.
So there was all kinds of thingsthat you can find out on
LinkedIn that people want you toknow about.
Then I feel like it does, it is meaningful in a way that you
(18:56):
mention things that they put outthere, right?
They put it out there on purpose.
They want people to know that about themselves.
So it's always been helpful in my opinion.
She reach out and she mentioned something unique about their
profile, right. So usually you see IP lawyers,
you usually see that they have amedical, health or engineering
background. But then when I found a few of
(19:17):
the lawyers that were working with IP and they had a social
sciences background, I, I kind of pointed that out.
I was like, I'm that's so exciting.
So happy to hear about your perspective.
So I think I always try to find something that was interesting
that they had put out there publicly.
And I thought that that was helpful because it was a good
conversation starter to so I would go to the coffee chat, you
(19:38):
know, just exchange greetings, tell them a little bit about the
project about myself and especially get you here about
them, right. So I always tried to prepare a
couple of questions, not in every coffee chat.
I used the questions I prepared,but I just didn't want to be
kind of caught off guard. And something that I learned
with the the big number that maybe I wouldn't notice if I was
(20:02):
just talking to 10 people is that knowing any life
relationship, sometimes there's chemistry and sometimes there's
just not. Sometimes I don't know, people
are busy. They just have something else on
their mind and it just doesn't go great.
Not every coffee chat will go great.
That's what I learned about it. You know, a lot of people are
very. They just have a very different
(20:22):
personality. They just are very much on task,
right? And they're like, what do you
wanna know? And very directed their
questions. They don't, they don't enjoy
maybe just chatting about trivialities and all of that.
So it was, it was definitely a learning experience about humans
in general. But then in the profession, he
taught me a lot that people, they value that other people
(20:45):
take the time to take a look at their profile and make
thoughtful questions that could look like, for example, as I
mentioned, the thing about IP law, right, I usually notice
that IP lawyers have an engineering or, or health
background. I notice that you have a social
sciences 1. Can you tell me a little bit
about how did you navigate that?Is it common like most of your
colleagues do have that or is this just a misconception that
(21:08):
I'm having? And then when I went and talked
with lawyers that clerked for judges, for example, I mentioned
to them that I wanted you to transactional work.
And when I came to Canada and mentioned that I had clerked,
people were like, wait, that's not usually how it goes.
Usually people who clerk are going into litigation.
So it was just very interesting to see the different things that
(21:29):
the career does here and that itdoes in in other countries.
But trying to relate to people trying to explain my experience.
That was all part of what made it meaningful.
And then I feel like, of course,part of it was being lucky that
the lawyers that agreed should be a part of these.
They were just open and and justeasy going about it.
(21:51):
And I think that that's what youfind most of the time in my
small pool of of people that I interviewed, that's what I
found. They wanted to be connected to
the faculty, Sue, and they felt like they were giving back to
the community when they were chatting with.
Me, I think people listening might smell first of all, 80 or
whatever 82 you ended up with isnot a small pool.
(22:13):
It is quite a large number of people to interview over the
course of what has essentially been gosh like 8 months.
So that's 10 people a month. So I'm sure there's, if we were
to spread them all out, which weobviously you did not.
But you know, people might wonder how did you decide who to
(22:33):
reach out to? How did you take it when you got
no one responding? Yeah, I, I think people might
not know where to start. So how did how did you start
researching the individuals withwhom you might meet?
They're absolutely first of all,when I decided to, to use the
number kind of, it felt off a little bit.
You should like number people atfirst because I didn't want it
(22:57):
to be like, you are lawyer #7 you are lawyer #10 you know, I
definitely didn't want it to feel or especially for people to
feel like they were just, I'm just doing this coffee chat
because I want to check another number in my list, right?
So I, I, I did everything withinmy power to make sure that I let
them know that they weren't just, you know, somebody else
(23:17):
that I was checking off my list.And that was important to me
first. You should not see people as
numbers. But as I went about to the
selection of the individuals, there were a few different
things. So I knew kind of what I wanted
to get out of this experience, right?
I wanted to talk with people in different fields.
(23:37):
I wanted to make sure that I talked with, you know, a lot of
people in private practice, a lot of people in public
practice. I wanted to talk with people
that went to other countries. I got to talk with lawyers that
are working in Switzerland, thatare working in Singapore and all
were UFT trains. I also wanted to talk with
lawyers from different generations.
(23:57):
I didn't want to talk only with 2024 graduates, which were super
open, but I also wanted to see how how far back could I go.
Definitely all of these criteriahelped me to to take a look at
the right and LinkedIn was mostly what I used.
I used the UFT lock connect as well because then that also
added a layer of people willing to talk.
(24:21):
And then LinkedIn helped me to filter out a lot of that because
a lot of people have their graduation dates and you can
filter out through that. So that was also helpful.
It felt like the farther away people have graduated, a little
bit harder to reach out to them.But happily I was able to have a
reasonable amount of people thatgraduated or before the 2000s,
(24:41):
so I was just very happy with the the final results.
But the earliest graduation dateperson that you spoke with?
OK. Let me just tell you in a second
it it's interesting because it was actually just a Sabella, the
person that I spoke to that has the earliest graduation date and
I just have to just check here really quickly when that was.
(25:05):
She is one of the most highly respected individuals in Canada
for the work that she's done as a woman leading the in the
judiciary space. And I'm sure there's people as
you're searching and buying you a little time, but I think it
might be interesting for people to note that when people say
yes, lawyers are willing to talkto you, adjust this with, you
(25:25):
know, she, she actually would sit down and speak with you for,
you know what, half an hour. And it is absolutely generous,
of course, but they really do value the opportunity to meet
with people who are coming into the practice of law and want to
talk to you, want to provide advice because so many of these
individuals are there to serve community.
And so I think for those listening, it's it's a really
(25:47):
important lesson that yes, actually, they many will say
yes. And as Claudio is also quite
well outlined, making it personal, indicating why you're
doing this, showing that you've done some thoughtful research on
the individual helps the yes come faster.
All right, so did you find the date?
I have actually, yes. So she's from the graduating
(26:10):
class of 1970. So she's graduated 55 years ago.
And that's, it was just incredible for me to, to see,
you know, the impact that she's done in all these years and to
understand a little better of what, what a big, what a big
leap it was to study at UFT backthen to from what I've been
(26:31):
seeing more and more. There's, there's a rich history
of what legal education looked like and how much university and
Law Society were very aligned. And then we have UFT law coming
up as, as a very different proposal and a very different
idea to the community. So it's definitely a school that
has that story of being, you know, groundbreaker.
(26:54):
And, and I think that from what I've heard a little bit, there
was even the first few graduating classes, they were
not even sure if they would be recognized or not.
So there there's so much to the story and it's just awesome to
to get to hear a little bit moreabout it, understand it and see
the impact that so many alumni have been doing all through the
years. Absolutely.
(27:15):
Speaking the impact, what impacthas this project had on you?
Wow. In so many ways, in so many
things, I feel like it definitely has.
It has given me some clarity of things that I had a vague idea
of. But hearing people saying it
over and over again definitely gave me a lot of more of an
understanding of what the community thinks in a way.
(27:37):
So there was a lot of things about, you know, hard skills and
soft skills, but oftentimes I heard the words of, you know,
keep an open mind. A lot, a lot of the graduates
ended up getting somewhere that they had no idea where they were
going to go. A few people had a very specific
going mind and they were like, I'm going to do this.
(27:59):
One example, there was a graduate who who is a university
president and he went to law school knowing he wanted to do
this and he did it. And and it was just incredible
to see that, to see, you know, the both ways are possible.
People who were not sure they went to, you know, Bay Streets,
did their time there, didn't love it, went somewhere else and
(28:20):
and just found passion for law over again.
So it was just incredible to see, you know, all the different
things you can do with a law degree.
I spoke with, you know, a reasonable amount of lawyers
that are no longer practicing lawyers and that are in other
areas be, you know, public policy, international
organizations. So it's just, it was just very,
very interesting in that way and, and it shaped the way I see
(28:43):
the graduates. I'm looking around my colleagues
now and just super curious, you know, what's going to happen,
you know, 5-10 years from now because it's just a lot of
impact can be done in a short amount of time these days.
Absolutely. And I think one of the things
that maybe is implicit in sort of the project and possibly the
impact for you is the fact that you now have 80 plus new
(29:04):
connections you wouldn't have had if you hadn't done the
project. But also if you situate that
within the program itself and the closeness with which you
have built relationships, friendships with, you know, your
colleagues in the class, they have their own connections.
And so together, you have a strong fabric of individuals
with whom you may be able to speak, you share contacts and
(29:26):
knowledge. And that is really one of the
most sort of the fundamental aspects of networking is that
together, when you have those connections, you can get more
information, thoughtful insights, different
perspectives, and that you can share that sort of sense of
community with many, many other people.
And so I think that may be inherent in that is the fact
(29:48):
that you are much more closely connected to people in the
practice of law than you ever have been before, but also that
you are available to build thoseconnections with other people
too, and they with you. So I think that that's an
exciting outcome as well. Has been, and it led, you know,
to new speakers at the podcast. He led to people that weren't
(30:10):
connected to the university thatwe still chatted and we, we
said, Hey, let's have a podcast in the future because I'd love
to, you know, get to hear more about that there.
It was incredible to me that people were reaching out about
it. Something that was interesting
too, is that when I, when I shared these two initiatives
that I have one being the podcast and separately, the 75
(30:32):
lawyer project. It's hard for, you know, for
everybody to, you know, come andknow all about my life, right?
So it happened that a lot of people were like, Oh, so we are
recording a podcast and I'm like, OK, let me just try to
explain this again, right? I have these two different
projects that I work on, like 75project lawyer is not a podcast
(30:54):
and we're just getting done withthat.
And the podcast is just something that I do for fun and
that I have been doing for a couple of years now.
But it was just interesting alsoto see how in a way your, your
image gets, you know, attached to all these things.
And then I just had to unroll ita little bit and say like, OK,
so box day, box B, box C kind ofgo over all of that.
(31:16):
But it was just just being quitequite an incredible experience.
And I feel like that's one of the big like untangles of going
to law school, going through this route for licensing is that
you get to meet a lot more people because it can be a very
lonely Rd. if you're just challenging the exams.
And I'm glad there's more and more communities and
organizations that are helping out with that.
(31:38):
But honestly, belonging to a community, having colleagues
that are going through the same process and then getting to
reach to all these people that have gone through, you know,
their law school experience, their bar exams, and they are in
practice for so many years. It's just a very, very
interesting. And especially to see that, you
know, it's possible that, you know, different ways will work
(32:00):
out in the end, just gives a lotof a lot of hope, excitement
and, and even meaning. As you know, older graduates are
now talking about, you know, thelegacy they want to give or how
much they want to give back to the university and how much they
feel like it changed their life completely.
There's a few of the graduates that I spoke to that are working
(32:20):
fewer at the law school with, you know, alumni relations now
and the alumni board. I forgot the the specific name
of the association, but it's just very interesting to see
these people that have graduated3040 years ago and that are
coming back and that they feel that they are very much
connected to the university and they want to give back and
mentor the next generation. Shoot.
(32:41):
Absolutely. And I think that's probably a
beautiful sort of pause. You know, I, I think hopefully
people who are listening in are,are realizing just how
interconnected and how importantnetworking is, not because of
the job, you know, that is of course going to be part of it.
But I think the larger point is,is that people want to feel
connected, they care, they want to leave a legacy, they want to
(33:04):
make a positive impact. And your invitation to do so, I
think has made you know it's 80 plus people feel more connected
with each other and you and the university because you genuinely
wanted to meet with them. So I wanted to just congratulate
you on what has been a remarkable project and I know it
will unfold and unfurl and really interesting ways over the
(33:26):
years. Ahead, I'm just very happy to
have, you know, the support of the university in many ways to
have all the, all the team following up with me and seeing
how is it going, saying how is it going when we, when we, you
know, crossed paths in the corridors, going to class and
all of that. And it really wouldn't be
possible without being a part ofthis community.
(33:46):
So I'm just very thankful for for this time that I have had
the opportunity to be at UF, youknow, to get to know you Erica
personally, to get to know, you know, the, the other members of
the team. But it's just being an
incredible experience. And I've noticed more and more
the importance of having some kind of, you know, personal
project or something that you get to, you know, experience on.
(34:09):
And, and a lot of people did that through undergrad and, and
all of that. But it was just a great
opportunity for me to get, you know, more people, but also to
get to do something and, and remind myself that I can do hard
things and I can start and finish projects and just, you
know, just that kind of experience really.
Yeah, that's excellent advice, Excellent advice, Claudia.
(34:32):
Amazing. Well, thank you so much for
joining me once again, Erica. It's it's much appreciated.
And I don't know if I want you to come back because I keep
thinking that if you come back here, it probably means that the
program is over. That may have to happen.
I mean, you know, if you want tocome back for another program,
you let us know. You know, we, we also know that
success means that in, you know,the, the autumn, you will be
(34:56):
wearing your graduation towns along with your classmates,
walking out of Convocation Hall onto front campus, celebrating
this moment of accomplishment. And we, we take such great joy
in watching you all work hard, go through the lumps and bumps
of the program and to flourish in the ways that you all
uniquely are flourishing. So yeah, I know we should have
(35:17):
another conversation before we go, but I think for today we'll
we'll just say let's keep talking sometimes.
There you go, there you go. For sure we will.
Thank you so much for joining. Once again, thank you all for
tuning into this episode and we'll talk soon.
Hello everybody. Welcome to another episode of
Studying Law Around the World. In this episode, I'll be glad to
have Erica Bailey with me. She's the graduate career
advisor at the Faculty of Law atUniversity of Toronto, and she
has been in the podcast before. We've done a few episodes
before, and we do a special format when she joins me here.
(00:37):
So, Erica, can you tell our listeners a little bit about
yourself and also tell us a little recap on what we're doing
here together? Hi everybody, It's great to meet
you. My name is Erica Bailey and I
use she and her pronouns and as Claudio says, I'm the graduate
career advisor. I have the great distinction and
privilege to be able to support internationally trained lawyers
(00:59):
in the global professional Master of Laws and Master of
Laws programs. And when Claudio was still an
incoming student, as you probably have quickly learned
his very eager to outreach to new people kind of person and he
said I'd like to interview you about, I can't even remember the
topic labour market or resumes. I don't even remember and I
(01:21):
thought, you know, my story and my insights aren't as
interesting as what it might be for all of you who are listening
today, because I think it's important to understand what's
it like to go into an international program of study?
What are some of the considerations?
What's it like to live through it?
And so Claudio, I think is a perfect specimen.
So I invited that we turn the tables a little bit.
(01:42):
So we you're used to hearing Claudio doing the interviews.
And so in this time I'll be interviewing Claudio to really
think about his own experience, not just as you know, in the
program here at the University of Toronto and the Global
professional Master of Laws, butbroadly as an internationally
trained lawyer, new in Canada. What does that mean for him and
his career and his licensing journey, his learning about the
(02:04):
law here? So that's why we are doing it
this way. Today amazing.
And we'll, we'll continue on this journey.
On the previous episodes, we talked about, you know, living
my home country, what was it like, what I had to prepare,
what was in my luggage, and thenwent on to talk about how the
first semester felt like. Talked a little bit about the
recruitment, the first few exams.
(02:25):
So it's just been very interesting to do all of that.
And honestly, for me, it's been some kind of, you know,
journaling, you know, where I get the chance to go back and,
and listen to the thoughts of what was my mindset back then or
what things I was thinking. And this year has just gone by
so quickly, especially the academic year, the way it's set
(02:46):
out. And I'm now taking my last two
courses of the GPL. Can you believe that?
Eric I can and I cannot. Every year it feels faster and
faster, but I also know it goes so quickly.
I can't believe like we, we had a really hard winter this year
and so this whole winter semester has passed without us
having a conversation. And I think it might be
interesting to hear about your experiences of studying law
(03:09):
while in one of the coldest winters in recent memory in
Canada. How did winter?
How did your winter term go? Well, it's very interesting.
I feel like I get asked that by my family and friends a lot.
And one thing that is very real is that you just really feel
cold when you go outside, right?So literally like it's going to
(03:29):
the train station or going, you know, from your car to point A
to B. But usually you don't feel the
cold as much. What I really noticed that maybe
I hadn't noticed as much before is really the amount of sunlight
you have every day, right? So it, it does in a way, like
take a toll on your body. You know, when the sun comes out
just like 9:00 AM and goes away at 4:00 PM, there's definitely
(03:52):
some some effects that that doesyour body.
I feel like, and that was one ofthe the big observations for me
during this summer semester. But you know, it, it's part of
the experience. And it was quite nice, you know,
getting to see the snow, gettingto see the campus all white.
So I feel like that that was oneof the highlights of studying
during the winter. Did you get out and play in the
snow at all? Yep, Yep, Head should do that,
(04:14):
right? So we had a little baby and we
just had to introduce her to thesnow as well.
So yeah, just had a good time. Great.
That's wonderful. And So what were some of the
courses like for you over the winter term and how are you
finding it, especially someone who's civil law trained, how are
you finding the comparison between common law and civil
law? And how are you, how are you
thinking now that might be different than when you either
(04:36):
started in January or even looking further back to
September? Absolutely.
So last semester we had admin law and tort law.
And I feel like the the obvious big difference is the difference
that common law uses precedence,right.
So use cases. And it was very interesting
especially in tarts how we studied a lot of UK cases and
(04:58):
then a few USA cases and then how, how it kind of evolved in
Canada. So it was just very interesting
to see the very like international nature of some of
the subjects. Whereas in a civil law
jurisdiction, or at least in Brazil specifically, most of it
is, is very much you go to the code, you read the code and you
(05:19):
see, you know, yes, no, So it's,it's a lot less nuanced in no
way, at least from my personal perspective, from what I was
able to gather, but it, it was very interesting.
It was just a semester full of learning.
Definitely very interesting subjects to, to go over how much
administrative law is in our day-to-day life.
(05:39):
It's just incredible to see. And then tarts, we hear about,
you know, slip and fall and all these things and we don't maybe
don't give too much thought about how that process goes, but
it was just very, very interesting to study.
And those were classes I took all throughout the semester.
And then at the end of the semester, I took an intensive
course negotiation, and that wasjust very, very interesting to
(06:03):
different than the the semester long classes.
The negotiation course was a lotmore practical.
So we got the chance to first ofall, get to talk with a lot of
colleagues that I hadn't talked much with, which was amazing
because just our cohort is so big, right?
So we don't really get you chat a lot of with everybody.
And it was just great. She in no way meets these people
(06:24):
that I'm sharing a classroom fora year now.
And on another note, it was justgreat to, you know, learn more
about what negotiation principles look like.
We hear about negotiation soundsfun and all of that, but there's
actually kind of like a science behind it, how you should go
about it, how you know, how you start a negotiation makes a
difference and, and all of thosethings.
(06:45):
So it was this is very, very enjoyable semester.
Good to hear. I mean, I, I, I think you know,
absolutely you're learning a lotabout the content.
And I'm curious, can you, can you identify if at all ways in
which you think or respond to information on the study of law
differently than you did before?Have you learned some skills or
(07:06):
perhaps there's been a challengethis semester that perhaps is
really made you dig deep and andtry new resiliency skills that
would be important for. You absolutely.
So on a first note, of course there is, I feel like there's a
maturity, a point to it. So when I was doing my
bachelors, I was too, you know, out of high school, like as a,
as a first opportunity you don'tget, you don't spend too much
(07:29):
time thinking about how you learn early on.
So as you mature, you kind of know better what's effective for
you, what's not. So there's definitely that point
where I no longer try to copy what everybody else is doing,
but I know a little bit better of like this is how I should
take my notes so that I can learn a little more.
But something that happened in the semester as well is that we
(07:51):
had a few changes at the faculty.
And now the way we get tested onexams changed a little bit.
And because of that, it also made most of us change the way
we were preparing for exams, right?
So beforehand, we were able to bring just a, an extensive
amount of material. And now in this new approach,
we're not doing as much. So it definitely made me think
(08:14):
about, you know, how can I make better notes?
How can I use post dates and andhighlighter and all these things
to make after that? I can go through my notes
quickly during an exam. So it was just an interesting
semester to to get adapted to change.
We always know that change is the biggest constant in life,
but it was definitely an interesting challenge, you know,
to go about this again, to go about beforehand, I was I was
(08:36):
taking this like 100 page file to an exam because I'm like, if
I don't remember anything, I'll be able to find it there, right.
But you know, in the end, it wasjust kind of like a comfort in
the back of your mind that you'dhave.
And now it was a lot more, you know, to the point a lot more
what does really matter for me to take to this exam?
(08:57):
Let me make sure that I have this summarized and that I know
how to get to it quickly. So it was definitely interesting
in this sense, basically trying a new.
That's great. I mean, in some ways being able
to be discerning, to really understand the material, just
not know where to find things because finding material like
finding information is not what people need.
(09:17):
They need lawyers to be really critically thinking about it, to
have a strong analysis to to make sense of it, to know what's
relevant, what's not, to be ableto do quick recall as necessary.
And so it sounds like you've started developing that skill in
a good way. Yeah, absolutely.
It's so interesting how in different stages of your life,
some skills are more necessary than others, right.
(09:38):
So I guess when you have that comfort of having all the
material in front of you, maybe you don't necessarily exercise
that muscle as much of discernment and of summarizing
and of focusing on what really matters as a whole.
And then when you know, this situations put you in a position
where you know, you kind of haveto do that, then you tend to
(09:59):
develop that even more. So it was definitely a good
opportunity to to get to the point to, you know, develop
those skills further and to justreally test it out and see what
worked best, which I think is really valuable in life.
You just test something out, seeif it works out, and if it works
out, you stick to it. Or if you see there's any way to
(10:19):
improve it, you do it for the next round.
So that's that's what's winter semester was a lot about.
Yeah, for sure. And I think that winter
semesters all like to me, the word that is often used as
resiliency. But resiliency can look and feel
a lot like many things, right? But it sounds to me like that
creative engagement to say, right, something's changed.
(10:40):
And that is such a remarkable skill.
And it's it's so necessary in somany areas of our lives, not
just academics, but also in yourcareers.
Absolutely. No, I, I totally have to agree
with that. I love that you said that
resiliency looks different and looks like a lot of different
things because it really does. I feel like we only really think
about it when, when you know, somebody asks something
(11:02):
specific. Are you hearing inside or you
hear somebody's experience? But it really is after all this
opportunity that you get to, youknow, adapt again or are you do
something differently that you're used to doing in in a
different way. So it was it was interesting to
see. There's this common joke that
(11:23):
goes around talking about when you join a new firm or when you
start a new job. They basically say that it's
basically you are a new character in the 55th season of
that show, right? So everybody has all the inside
jokes, everybody know what's going on and you're just
basically training there to figure it out.
And I feel like life does that to you time and time again.
(11:46):
So be it a team changing side, your firm, be, you know, going
into a different department at the university or just going
into a class with classmates that didn't choose to take that
same class. It it happens more than we we'd
like to acknowledge maybe, and it's just good.
It's good to be out of your comfort, even though it's super
cliche to say that growth happens out of your comfort
(12:09):
zone, but it's really a true statement. 100% and they use
that point, I think, because I know you've not only learned it
by doing it, but you've learned it through hearing it.
And so for those listeners who are familiar with your very,
very beautifully written at LinkedIn activities, they know
that you have been interviewing,even had created a little bit of
(12:29):
a project for yourself interviewing lawyers here in
Canada. And so I'm curious if you'd like
to discuss some of the, what wasthe seed of that idea and how
did it go? And what are some of the some of
the things you've learned through your networking that you
think you'd like to share here? Absolutely.
So when I first started at UFT, and I think I even mentioned
(12:50):
this in one of the podcasts we recorded together, there was a
big celebration for the 75 yearsof the universe of the Faculty
of Law, specifically in the university.
And we got to attend an event ina gala and all of that.
And we even sat together, right,And sat close to each other.
And honestly, it was just so incredible for me to be sitting
(13:12):
in front of, you know, all of these basically legal royalty of
Canada. Yeah.
Basically there were, you know, former Supreme Court justices,
ambassadors, judges, professors,partners of law firms.
So there was a lot of very important people altogether in
the same conference. And it was just very inspiring
to see. But I also felt like, you know,
(13:34):
at first, it's awesome that I get to belong into this.
So I felt that strongly. And then I was also thinking,
how can I engage with these people?
Like, I want to talk to them, right?
This is a quick event, but I also want to get to know a
little bit more about their lives, about their stories.
And after that event, and I've been active on LinkedIn for a
(13:54):
while, but I got to see a few people that I followed in the US
and what they were doing as JD students, they had a challenge
to meet with 100 lawyers throughtheir three years of law school.
So if you think about it, three years, 100 people, it's not that
big of a deal, right? Like it's challenging.
It's one every two weeks or so. Exactly, yes, and, and all of
(14:17):
these things just got cooking inmy mind and I'm like, you know
what, I want to meet with 75 lawyers because it's 75 years of
the faculty. I want to meet with the lawyers
here. Let's do it.
So I just basically put it out there on on LinkedIn that I was
going to start this project and I was overwhelmed by the the
(14:37):
openness of the community. You know, so many people told me
incredible things. I've heard things like my days
are very stress filled, high stakes.
I have to do everything with so much care.
And sometimes when a student reaches out and I get to just
lightheartedly talk with them for a couple of minutes, it just
really breaks out the tension ofmy day.
(14:59):
I'm like, Oh my goodness, am I helping you by by asking your
questions? It was just very, very nice to
get the opportunity to know people in different generations
to hear about their law school memories.
A lot of the people that I interviewed are UFT alumni,
right? So it was just very interesting
to hear all the different thingsthat they took out of
(15:21):
university. They would ask me about the name
of a few professors and I'm like, I'm, I'm not sure if
they're there sure or not, but it was just very interesting to
get to know the community a little better.
And I, and I feel in a way even more a part of it now that I'm
connected to, you know, different generations of the,
the university as I went about the project as well.
(15:41):
I got the chance to partner withthe advancement office and will
be coming out with a booklet soon with insights from these
lawyers that I got to interview.So their quotes picture.
So we'll get you to know who is the person behind the quotes
that I have been sharing. And I'm so excited for that part
of the project as well. I'm so excited for that as well.
And I, I think you know Claudio,there might be people listening
(16:03):
saying 75 new people and you reach 75 when how many people
you, you managed to reach your goal, right?
That's right. That's right.
So as I was about to start my summer job, I was like, I have
to finish this because I don't know how my schedule is going to
be and all of that. So I definitely reached out to a
lot of people during the month of March and most of our coffee
(16:27):
chats happened between March andApril.
And yeah, I was able to actuallymeet with a little over 75
because what happened is that I had to reach out to a lot of
people to get you here back, right?
So I probably reached out to youover 200 lawyers.
What ended up happening is that when I finished my 75, then a
few people got back to me and they were like, so sorry, I was
(16:49):
so busy, I got your e-mail. Would you still wanna meet?
And I'm like, absolutely, let's do this.
Great, I'm glad you you said no,no, that you didn't, you didn't
say no that I think it's really good that you keep those
connections going. I imagine that there are.
So for those who are listening, you probably can guess that
Claudia was pretty extroverted, well at least presents as such
(17:10):
and so really comfortable going out and meeting new people.
But was there a moment where youfelt a little nervous there
probably be helpful for those who are maybe a little more
introverted or a little uncertain about how do you
approach Canadian people like how do you talk to Canadians?
So I'm curious, what did you learn about talking to Canadian
lawyers that might be helpful from an international
(17:30):
perspective? Oh, absolutely.
Yeah. Thank you so much for bringing
that up. I think I was very lucky to
actually have coffee chats with just tremendous, generous people
right at the beginning. That helped me to get a good
start. A few of the actually one of the
first lawyers that I talked with, she asked me like, how
many of these have you done before?
I think I don't know how well itwas going, but she brought this
(17:52):
up and I'm like, I'm just starting.
And she was like, how about I lead this coffee chat today just
so you know how it's usually done and you can kind of like
take the most out of it because maybe you don't know what
questions to ask about what I'vedone and all of that.
So I was really like, so lucky to get that kind of mentorship
(18:14):
about how to go about it, coffeechat in practice that I couldn't
like see it going that well without this kind of guidance,
you know? So why don't you uncover a
little bit what does a good coffee?
How does a good coffee chat go? People want to know.
Absolutely. So I think it always starts with
respectful invite. So I was usually going to reach
(18:36):
out to people on LinkedIn or through e-mail asking, telling
them a little bit about what I was doing.
And I always make a point, made a point to try and find
something unique about those people, right.
So there was all kinds of thingsthat you can find out on
LinkedIn that people want you toknow about.
Then I feel like it does, it is meaningful in a way that you
(18:56):
mention things that they put outthere, right?
They put it out there on purpose.
They want people to know that about themselves.
So it's always been helpful in my opinion.
She reach out and she mentioned something unique about their
profile, right. So usually you see IP lawyers,
you usually see that they have amedical, health or engineering
background. But then when I found a few of
(19:17):
the lawyers that were working with IP and they had a social
sciences background, I, I kind of pointed that out.
I was like, I'm that's so exciting.
So happy to hear about your perspective.
So I think I always try to find something that was interesting
that they had put out there publicly.
And I thought that that was helpful because it was a good
conversation starter to so I would go to the coffee chat, you
(19:38):
know, just exchange greetings, tell them a little bit about the
project about myself and especially get you here about
them, right. So I always tried to prepare a
couple of questions, not in every coffee chat.
I used the questions I prepared,but I just didn't want to be
kind of caught off guard. And something that I learned
with the the big number that maybe I wouldn't notice if I was
(20:02):
just talking to 10 people is that knowing any life
relationship, sometimes there's chemistry and sometimes there's
just not. Sometimes I don't know, people
are busy. They just have something else on
their mind and it just doesn't go great.
Not every coffee chat will go great.
That's what I learned about it. You know, a lot of people are
very. They just have a very different
(20:22):
personality. They just are very much on task,
right? And they're like, what do you
wanna know? And very directed their
questions. They don't, they don't enjoy
maybe just chatting about trivialities and all of that.
So it was, it was definitely a learning experience about humans
in general. But then in the profession, he
taught me a lot that people, they value that other people
(20:45):
take the time to take a look at their profile and make
thoughtful questions that could look like, for example, as I
mentioned, the thing about IP law, right, I usually notice
that IP lawyers have an engineering or, or health
background. I notice that you have a social
sciences 1. Can you tell me a little bit
about how did you navigate that?Is it common like most of your
colleagues do have that or is this just a misconception that
(21:08):
I'm having? And then when I went and talked
with lawyers that clerked for judges, for example, I mentioned
to them that I wanted you to transactional work.
And when I came to Canada and mentioned that I had clerked,
people were like, wait, that's not usually how it goes.
Usually people who clerk are going into litigation.
So it was just very interesting to see the different things that
(21:29):
the career does here and that itdoes in in other countries.
But trying to relate to people trying to explain my experience.
That was all part of what made it meaningful.
And then I feel like, of course,part of it was being lucky that
the lawyers that agreed should be a part of these.
They were just open and and justeasy going about it.
(21:51):
And I think that that's what youfind most of the time in my
small pool of of people that I interviewed, that's what I
found. They wanted to be connected to
the faculty, Sue, and they felt like they were giving back to
the community when they were chatting with.
Me, I think people listening might smell first of all, 80 or
whatever 82 you ended up with isnot a small pool.
(22:13):
It is quite a large number of people to interview over the
course of what has essentially been gosh like 8 months.
So that's 10 people a month. So I'm sure there's, if we were
to spread them all out, which weobviously you did not.
But you know, people might wonder how did you decide who to
(22:33):
reach out to? How did you take it when you got
no one responding? Yeah, I, I think people might
not know where to start. So how did how did you start
researching the individuals withwhom you might meet?
They're absolutely first of all,when I decided to, to use the
number kind of, it felt off a little bit.
You should like number people atfirst because I didn't want it
(22:57):
to be like, you are lawyer #7 you are lawyer #10 you know, I
definitely didn't want it to feel or especially for people to
feel like they were just, I'm just doing this coffee chat
because I want to check another number in my list, right?
So I, I, I did everything withinmy power to make sure that I let
them know that they weren't just, you know, somebody else
(23:17):
that I was checking off my list.And that was important to me
first. You should not see people as
numbers. But as I went about to the
selection of the individuals, there were a few different
things. So I knew kind of what I wanted
to get out of this experience, right?
I wanted to talk with people in different fields.
(23:37):
I wanted to make sure that I talked with, you know, a lot of
people in private practice, a lot of people in public
practice. I wanted to talk with people
that went to other countries. I got to talk with lawyers that
are working in Switzerland, thatare working in Singapore and all
were UFT trains. I also wanted to talk with
lawyers from different generations.
(23:57):
I didn't want to talk only with 2024 graduates, which were super
open, but I also wanted to see how how far back could I go.
Definitely all of these criteriahelped me to to take a look at
the right and LinkedIn was mostly what I used.
I used the UFT lock connect as well because then that also
added a layer of people willing to talk.
(24:21):
And then LinkedIn helped me to filter out a lot of that because
a lot of people have their graduation dates and you can
filter out through that. So that was also helpful.
It felt like the farther away people have graduated, a little
bit harder to reach out to them.But happily I was able to have a
reasonable amount of people thatgraduated or before the 2000s,
(24:41):
so I was just very happy with the the final results.
But the earliest graduation dateperson that you spoke with?
OK. Let me just tell you in a second
it it's interesting because it was actually just a Sabella, the
person that I spoke to that has the earliest graduation date and
I just have to just check here really quickly when that was.
(25:05):
She is one of the most highly respected individuals in Canada
for the work that she's done as a woman leading the in the
judiciary space. And I'm sure there's people as
you're searching and buying you a little time, but I think it
might be interesting for people to note that when people say
yes, lawyers are willing to talkto you, adjust this with, you
(25:25):
know, she, she actually would sit down and speak with you for,
you know what, half an hour. And it is absolutely generous,
of course, but they really do value the opportunity to meet
with people who are coming into the practice of law and want to
talk to you, want to provide advice because so many of these
individuals are there to serve community.
And so I think for those listening, it's it's a really
(25:47):
important lesson that yes, actually, they many will say
yes. And as Claudio is also quite
well outlined, making it personal, indicating why you're
doing this, showing that you've done some thoughtful research on
the individual helps the yes come faster.
All right, so did you find the date?
I have actually, yes. So she's from the graduating
(26:10):
class of 1970. So she's graduated 55 years ago.
And that's, it was just incredible for me to, to see,
you know, the impact that she's done in all these years and to
understand a little better of what, what a big, what a big
leap it was to study at UFT backthen to from what I've been
(26:31):
seeing more and more. There's, there's a rich history
of what legal education looked like and how much university and
Law Society were very aligned. And then we have UFT law coming
up as, as a very different proposal and a very different
idea to the community. So it's definitely a school that
has that story of being, you know, groundbreaker.
(26:54):
And, and I think that from what I've heard a little bit, there
was even the first few graduating classes, they were
not even sure if they would be recognized or not.
So there there's so much to the story and it's just awesome to
to get to hear a little bit moreabout it, understand it and see
the impact that so many alumni have been doing all through the
years. Absolutely.
(27:15):
Speaking the impact, what impacthas this project had on you?
Wow. In so many ways, in so many
things, I feel like it definitely has.
It has given me some clarity of things that I had a vague idea
of. But hearing people saying it
over and over again definitely gave me a lot of more of an
understanding of what the community thinks in a way.
(27:37):
So there was a lot of things about, you know, hard skills and
soft skills, but oftentimes I heard the words of, you know,
keep an open mind. A lot, a lot of the graduates
ended up getting somewhere that they had no idea where they were
going to go. A few people had a very specific
going mind and they were like, I'm going to do this.
(27:59):
One example, there was a graduate who who is a university
president and he went to law school knowing he wanted to do
this and he did it. And and it was just incredible
to see that, to see, you know, the both ways are possible.
People who were not sure they went to, you know, Bay Streets,
did their time there, didn't love it, went somewhere else and
(28:20):
and just found passion for law over again.
So it was just incredible to see, you know, all the different
things you can do with a law degree.
I spoke with, you know, a reasonable amount of lawyers
that are no longer practicing lawyers and that are in other
areas be, you know, public policy, international
organizations. So it's just, it was just very,
very interesting in that way and, and it shaped the way I see
(28:43):
the graduates. I'm looking around my colleagues
now and just super curious, you know, what's going to happen,
you know, 5-10 years from now because it's just a lot of
impact can be done in a short amount of time these days.
Absolutely. And I think one of the things
that maybe is implicit in sort of the project and possibly the
impact for you is the fact that you now have 80 plus new
(29:04):
connections you wouldn't have had if you hadn't done the
project. But also if you situate that
within the program itself and the closeness with which you
have built relationships, friendships with, you know, your
colleagues in the class, they have their own connections.
And so together, you have a strong fabric of individuals
with whom you may be able to speak, you share contacts and
(29:26):
knowledge. And that is really one of the
most sort of the fundamental aspects of networking is that
together, when you have those connections, you can get more
information, thoughtful insights, different
perspectives, and that you can share that sort of sense of
community with many, many other people.
And so I think that may be inherent in that is the fact
(29:48):
that you are much more closely connected to people in the
practice of law than you ever have been before, but also that
you are available to build thoseconnections with other people
too, and they with you. So I think that that's an
exciting outcome as well. Has been, and it led, you know,
to new speakers at the podcast. He led to people that weren't
(30:10):
connected to the university thatwe still chatted and we, we
said, Hey, let's have a podcast in the future because I'd love
to, you know, get to hear more about that there.
It was incredible to me that people were reaching out about
it. Something that was interesting
too, is that when I, when I shared these two initiatives
that I have one being the podcast and separately, the 75
(30:32):
lawyer project. It's hard for, you know, for
everybody to, you know, come andknow all about my life, right?
So it happened that a lot of people were like, Oh, so we are
recording a podcast and I'm like, OK, let me just try to
explain this again, right? I have these two different
projects that I work on, like 75project lawyer is not a podcast
(30:54):
and we're just getting done withthat.
And the podcast is just something that I do for fun and
that I have been doing for a couple of years now.
But it was just interesting alsoto see how in a way your, your
image gets, you know, attached to all these things.
And then I just had to unroll ita little bit and say like, OK,
so box day, box B, box C kind ofgo over all of that.
(31:16):
But it was just just being quitequite an incredible experience.
And I feel like that's one of the big like untangles of going
to law school, going through this route for licensing is that
you get to meet a lot more people because it can be a very
lonely Rd. if you're just challenging the exams.
And I'm glad there's more and more communities and
organizations that are helping out with that.
(31:38):
But honestly, belonging to a community, having colleagues
that are going through the same process and then getting to
reach to all these people that have gone through, you know,
their law school experience, their bar exams, and they are in
practice for so many years. It's just a very, very
interesting. And especially to see that, you
know, it's possible that, you know, different ways will work
(32:00):
out in the end, just gives a lotof a lot of hope, excitement
and, and even meaning. As you know, older graduates are
now talking about, you know, thelegacy they want to give or how
much they want to give back to the university and how much they
feel like it changed their life completely.
There's a few of the graduates that I spoke to that are working
(32:20):
fewer at the law school with, you know, alumni relations now
and the alumni board. I forgot the the specific name
of the association, but it's just very interesting to see
these people that have graduated3040 years ago and that are
coming back and that they feel that they are very much
connected to the university and they want to give back and
mentor the next generation. Shoot.
(32:41):
Absolutely. And I think that's probably a
beautiful sort of pause. You know, I, I think hopefully
people who are listening in are,are realizing just how
interconnected and how importantnetworking is, not because of
the job, you know, that is of course going to be part of it.
But I think the larger point is,is that people want to feel
connected, they care, they want to leave a legacy, they want to
(33:04):
make a positive impact. And your invitation to do so, I
think has made you know it's 80 plus people feel more connected
with each other and you and the university because you genuinely
wanted to meet with them. So I wanted to just congratulate
you on what has been a remarkable project and I know it
will unfold and unfurl and really interesting ways over the
(33:26):
years. Ahead, I'm just very happy to
have, you know, the support of the university in many ways to
have all the, all the team following up with me and seeing
how is it going, saying how is it going when we, when we, you
know, crossed paths in the corridors, going to class and
all of that. And it really wouldn't be
possible without being a part ofthis community.
(33:46):
So I'm just very thankful for for this time that I have had
the opportunity to be at UF, youknow, to get to know you Erica
personally, to get to know, you know, the, the other members of
the team. But it's just being an
incredible experience. And I've noticed more and more
the importance of having some kind of, you know, personal
project or something that you get to, you know, experience on.
(34:09):
And, and a lot of people did that through undergrad and, and
all of that. But it was just a great
opportunity for me to get, you know, more people, but also to
get to do something and, and remind myself that I can do hard
things and I can start and finish projects and just, you
know, just that kind of experience really.
Yeah, that's excellent advice, Excellent advice, Claudia.
(34:32):
Amazing. Well, thank you so much for
joining me once again, Erica. It's it's much appreciated.
And I don't know if I want you to come back because I keep
thinking that if you come back here, it probably means that the
program is over. That may have to happen.
I mean, you know, if you want tocome back for another program,
you let us know. You know, we, we also know that
success means that in, you know,the, the autumn, you will be
(34:56):
wearing your graduation towns along with your classmates,
walking out of Convocation Hall onto front campus, celebrating
this moment of accomplishment. And we, we take such great joy
in watching you all work hard, go through the lumps and bumps
of the program and to flourish in the ways that you all
uniquely are flourishing. So yeah, I know we should have
(35:17):
another conversation before we go, but I think for today we'll
we'll just say let's keep talking sometimes.
There you go, there you go. For sure we will.
Thank you so much for joining. Once again, thank you all for
tuning into this episode and we'll talk soon.
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