August 6, 2025 • 26 mins
This episode of the Studying Law Around the World Podcast is proudly sponsored by ITL Prep from Emond Exam Prep, the comprehensive resource designed specifically for internationally trained lawyers preparing for the NCA exams.
Special Offer: ITL Prep is offering 50% off* all courses for the first 50 purchases. Use the promo code ITL50 at checkout. (*Casebooks and other resources must be purchased separately). Visit Emond.ca, and use promo code ITL50 to claim your 50% discount on NCA exam preparation courses.
This season is sponsored by Grammatika International. Grammatika International helps lawyers around the world succeed in their careers through legal writing courses and coaching. Learn more at www.grammatika.co.
In this episode, I talk with Alex Klyguine, a seasoned tax lawyer and founder of Taxpayer Law. Alex shares how he built his successful law firm after years on Bay Street, carving out a path that fits his values and lifestyle. We dive into why he chose tax law, what it takes to start your practice, and how to balance work with life’s bigger priorities.
If you are a law student or early-career lawyer wondering how to find your way, build a practice, or create a career you enjoy, this conversation is full of honest advice and real-world insight. Alex’s story is about making success on your terms and finding joy in the work you do.Sponsored by: Rev is the top AI transcription and speech-to-text platform trusted by thousands of legal professionals and researchers worldwide. Rev helps you quickly transcribe, organize, and analyze case materials with high accuracy using secure and easy-to-use tools. Learn more at Rev.com.
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(00:12):
Welcome to studying Law around the world.
I'm Claudio Claus. In each episode, I talk with
lawyers, law students, and professors from different parts
of the world to talk about legaleducation, careers, and what the
profession looks like in real life.
We talk about the hard parts, the surprises, and the decisions
that shaped their paths. Whether you're planning to study
abroad, thinking about working in another legal system, or just
(00:35):
curious about how law works around the world, this podcast.
Is for you. If you're an internationally
trained lawyer or law student working in or trying to break
into an English speaking common law system, you know that legal
writing is one of the biggest challenges and one of the most
(00:56):
important skills to master. That's where Grammatica comes
in. I'm Rebecca Lockwood, the
lawyer, mediator, educator and founder of Grammatica
International. We help lawyers and law students
to write sharper, speak clearer,and land more interviews with on
demand online courses, live workshops and one-on-one
(01:17):
consulting designed just for legal professionals.
I have worked with so many lawyers like you who are
exceptionally smart, qualified and capable, but need some
guidance to really stand out in a competitive legal market.
And I get it myself, having lived and worked in five
countries during my 17 years in law and education.
Whether you're looking to sharpen your writing skills
(01:39):
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program, Grammatica can help. Visit Grammatico to get started.
Today I have the opportunity to interview Alex Glickman.
He's a tax lawyer and also the founder of Taxpayer Law.
(02:01):
Thank you so much for joining ustoday.
Alex, my pleasure, Claudia, thanks for having.
Me amazing so she start today's episode.
I'd love to hear a little bit about your story.
So can you introduce yourself toour audience and share about
your journey through law school based treat and also starting
your own firm? Yeah, sure.
I mean the genesis of it, I was born abroad, you know, single
(02:22):
mother parent, came to Canada with a couple of kids and it
wasn't any easy life unnecessarily when I started
off. But you know, lots of people go
through the immigrant experience, so it's nothing
crucial for Canada. And so then I did my undergrad
at York, I guess because I didn't really want to change
the, the design on my wall in terms of the degrees.
(02:42):
I wanted to make sure all the degrees look the same on
identical. I continued my journey at York
and I got my JD, MBA, York. So all my degrees are from York.
So now they look really nice andpolished on the wall.
And yeah, that's kind of been myeducational journey.
Went to Osgood and graduated. Wasn't really sure what to do
with, you know, with, with, withmy life, but I didn't really
want to provide for my family. So I, I got a job on B Street.
(03:06):
I worked at one firm for a few years, then worked at another
firm for, for, for a few years, But I was fully an entrepreneur
by nature. It's, uh, it made sense for me
to do my own firm. I, I think it was kind of always
within me. I always had my own clients I
found and I always, you know, had the drive to build something
(03:30):
in my own, whether in law or elsewhere.
I started a business when I was,you know, he could say 6 year
old. So like I've, I've sold things,
I collected golf balls and golf courses and sold them, you know,
did all sorts of little things kind of to make, make some
money. So I was always kind of
entrepreneurial by nature. So kind of made sense for me to
go and start my own law firm. And I don't think the big law
(03:53):
path would necessarily give me the flexibility to do what I
wanted to do. And I didn't necessarily want to
do just law. I wanted to build a business, I
wanted to do investment stuff. I enjoy reading, so I wanted to
spend some time reading as well.Until, you know, having your own
firm, you kind of you're, you'refree to do whatever you want to
do. If you want to do a podcast, you
can do podcast right, which which is great.
(04:17):
This episode of Studying War Around the World is proudly
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Amazing. So I, I've, I've read some of
what you put there on on LinkedIn for context, a lot of
my audience here in the podcast.Are early career.
(06:10):
Professionals or law students, afrequent question that ends up
coming over and over again is how do you decide your area of
practice? So I wanted to ask you, what
made you choose tax? And I've, I've read a few of
your comments saying that it offers electoral challenges,
work life balance, satisfaction.But was there a specific moment
or experience that made that click for you?
(06:31):
Or was it more of a realization that you had over the years?
Well, I think when I worked at alarge law firm, what was helpful
is that you're able to experience multiple practice
serious something that you don'tnecessarily get a smaller
boutique shop where there's one practice here.
So I tax is not something necessarily I thought of until I
worked in the tax group. At the time.
(06:52):
I did take it a few tax courses and I thought they were great.
I also were like tort law, though.
So my first summer I spent in the tort department, the group's
called the store group. So I was able to experience
that. But what really attracted me to
tax is just kind of it aligned with the way that I think.
And I'm more of a logical numerical thinker and tax in the
(07:14):
basic essence of it. You know, the Income Tax Act is,
you know, a formula. It's it's it's very, you know,
long formula and, and, and written with using a lot of
words. But at the end of the day, it is
a formula. So that's that's why I was
attracted to tax. There's other areas, as I said,
I'd like tort law, but I don't think it really, you know, while
I liked it, it didn't really make sense with my background.
(07:35):
I kind of had a business undergrad, business MBA.
So, so tax kind of made sense with that background.
And I can also see myself working in competition law.
I like a comics on competition. Well, I think it's another area
that that that's quite interesting to me.
So yeah, I, I think there's no backgrounds, but the reason why
I chose taxes because it just made a lot of sense to me.
And, and you're right to point out that tax lawyers seem to be
(07:58):
happy. You know, multiple surveys and
studies suggest that tax lawyersrank often the most in the most
satisfied to most, most satisfied legal professionals
out there. And I think the reason for it
is, is probably, you know, the fact that it's the Tax Act is
like a puzzle. You got to try to figure things
out. It's a, you know, the laws
(08:19):
always changing. It's impossible to know it all.
You're always kind of digging, digging through it.
You're always learning, you're attending CPD events, You were
able to publish a lot, you know,kind of challenge yourself and,
and, and, and try to kind of find and answers sometimes the
questions that he answers that don't exist.
And you're trying to kind of come up with, with those answers
(08:39):
using, using whatever information is out there.
And so it makes, it makes it quite interesting.
And I kind of prior to this podcast, did a little bit of
research and it seems that, you know, results have showed that
tax associates have the highest job satisfaction of all practice
areas, which is pretty awesome. And there was a survey which was
done with the question of would you choose your, your practice
(09:03):
area again as a metric for happiness?
And 89% of tax attorneys said they would choose the same job
again. So the highest of any practice
group, which, which is, which ispretty remarkable, but I've seen
this before. So it's, it doesn't really
surprise me. It's not a surprising outcome,
but what I think it shows is that it really is a terrific
practicer out there in terms of work life balance.
(09:24):
Again, in fewer and tax litigation, you were, you have
a, you know, you have trials, ofcourse, you have various, you
know, various discoveries, etcetera, but you have a
calendar by which you follow. So it's kind of structured and
predictable. Tax planning is also, it could
be hectic, but there's an element of predictability there.
There isn't a lot of overnights I'll find in working as a tax or
(09:45):
which also really helps with with happiness and satisfaction.
No, that's amazing that that might, you know, give some some
food for thought for people who are deciding which practice area
they wanna go into and going forward.
You know, another of the facts here that I wanted to ask you
about is about building a practice as well.
You build your own from the ground up.
(10:05):
And I'd love to hear, you know, a little bit about what are some
of the hardest decisions you have to do.
I know it's not always easy to leave the comfort of staying in
a firm and then also maybe like the learning curves that you
have in those first years. And then also, what would you
say to somebody who's considering the same path?
I think first thing, it would behelpful to our a few years
(10:25):
behind your back, regardless of whether you're in tax or another
practice. I mean, I think it's really
difficult to start a fire without having any practical
experience. Law school doesn't teach you a
lot of practical skills. And I think, you know, having
that experience very helpful, especially in tax where the
learning curve is much greater. So I think that's the first
thing that somebody considering going out on their own, I would
(10:46):
suggest that they go and work somewhere so that it's so they
can gain those skills and experience.
That's the first thing. But just starting it off on my
own for what were the challenges?
I think one challenges kind of to stay within your circle of
competence. Right?
When I started off, I had 0 files.
I, you know, I left the work, You know, you, you want to drum
(11:08):
up some work, but you also want to drum up some work that fits
within your circle of competence.
And I'm using the term Warren Buffett that's using the
investment world, but I think italso applies to the legal
profession. You don't want to necessarily
double outside what your comfortzone is an outside.
What should you do when you're starting on your own 0 files?
Of course, there's, there's, youknow, potential pressures there
(11:30):
too, to go out and just get workfor the sake of work.
But I think my, my advice to anybody starting off on their
own would be to stay within yourcircle of competence and reject
the work that doesn't make senseto take on.
I think it's, you know, helps with limiting potential
liability and builds that expertise that, that a lawyer
has on a certain practice here. And that of course, not building
upon that expertise is kind of aflywheel, right?
(11:51):
You get better and better at something and then you can get
more work within that circle of competence and and and continue
that flywheel. Whether you're studying law in
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verifiablecitations.learnmore@rev.com.So that those are kind of, you
(12:20):
know, the, the, the basic things, I think from a business
perspective, you know, you want to make sure you monitor cash
flow, right? Because when you're starting off
and you have no files, even if you get one file, you're, you've
got to do the work, you've got to send the bill and you got to
get paid. So if you think of, you know,
doing the work, how long will that take you?
A couple of months, right? Sending the bill, you sent it
out, let's say at the end of thecouple months, takes you a
(12:41):
couple months to get paid, right?
So all of a sudden there's no cash for four months in my
example. And, and that's a, that's
tricky. So the first year is very
difficult from a casual perspective.
So it's as a result, it's important to kind of keep your
costs down when you're starting off referral.
We didn't have an office physical office at the time and
just had a mailing address at the time when I started.
(13:01):
Got your own laptop law for insurance practice management
software perhaps and some other tools, but very, very limited.
You don't need a lot of resources to run the offer
effectively nowadays. The barriers to entry into the
legal profession are fairly low.After you get your logic, you're
actually opening up your own farm isn't necessarily that hard
and order to what you got to do in order to start up firm.
It used to be much more difficult, right?
(13:23):
There were a lot of administrative hurdles, but
there's software tools now that enable you to send the bill
seamlessly with absolute ease would enable you to track your
time, you know, seemingly with ease.
It is much easier than it used to be to just try to offer your
firm, hang your own shingle and start doing the legal work.
I remember talking to a practitioner who, you know,
really started in these in Rennison from the 80s or 90s,
(13:45):
right? And one of the things he
complained about was that, you know, it was just too hard, too
much admin burden and running our firm nowadays that had been
Burton was just lower. So it makes it much easier to
start keeping costs low. Don't be afraid to fire, but
hire careful. I think that's another piece of
advice really, you know, otherwise you'll stay by
yourself all the time. And it's, it's a lot more fun to
work in a team to build something.
(14:07):
So we're fortunate to, to, to begrowing into being some very,
very good growth and to have a team with us that's, that's
exceptionally strong for a smaller firm.
And that's probably another challenge is how you build a
team that's exceptionally small,strong firm.
And you know, we, we just have to be very careful with their
hiring, recruiting selection process.
And, and that's what worked for us kind of relating to keeping
(14:29):
costs low. And, and that, that, you know,
cash flow crunch is, you know, you gotta build time only when
you, when you, when you're running and especially at the
beginning, right, you do want toget cash for, and I think that's
another piece of advice. You want to have a regular cat
cadence for billing. So we bill monthly, for example,
every month, you know, at the beginning of the month, somebody
goes into the bill, sends them all out.
And then and it's, it's, it's a routine and everybody enters
(14:53):
their dockets sometime. And we, you know, we send an
e-mail around the firm saying, you know, stand the month after
your doctors because we're billing and you need the cash in
order to keep the fire going andkeep the firm growing.
And it with the growing firm, ofcourse, that's a challenge
because you, you know, you need the cash not just to kind of
satisfy current obligations, butif you're growing, you got to
ensure that you have enough cashfor working capital and other
(15:14):
things that you're investing in order to like, if you want to
hire somebody, you hire them today, you gotta pay them today,
but it might take a few months for them to, to, to generate any
revenue, right? So you got to pay today?
Amazing. That's fantastic.
I think those are all things that people who are considering
that path should keep in mind and tell very much about the
practical side of it. So thank you for for going into
(15:37):
those details. I think that can be quite
straightforward when you have the right guidance and the right
business mindset. But maybe it's a little bit
daunting when you first notice all the big list of things that
you have to do. It is, it is, and I find that
really set us apart. Well, you know, because, you
know, law firm is a law firm, but I think if you, you got, if
(15:57):
you're creative in the way you do things, that really pushes
you to be different and that really makes the difference.
I think in terms of, you know, whether it's a highly successful
firm or not a successful firm. So we're pretty creative and
marketing. We're pretty creative and hiring
the way we approach, for example, we don't do regular OC
I, we just don't go through the process because you're competing
(16:17):
with everyone else. And we just decided we're not
going to compete in that process.
There's no need for that. So we hire differently and we
and we do marketing differently.And, and I think that's one of
the key reasons for our success.So that's my, my advice to
anybody starting your own forms,kind of think outside of the
box, think how you can do thingsdifferently.
Try to take, you know, see if there is any paths out there
that nobody's taking before perhaps, but there are and and
(16:40):
and perhaps they'll work really,really well if you do take that.
Fantastic. And on that same note about
creativity and all of that, I'veread quite a bit of what you put
out there on LinkedIn on work life balance, parenting and so
forth. And out of curiosity, I'd love
to know a little bit about how do you manage running a growing
firm while staying present, you know, both as a father, a
(17:02):
partner. So is there any kind of like
routine or boundary that is specifically help you or, or
it's kind of everybody's on board and you know, type
sometimes they're busier at the firm, sometimes they're busier
in family. How do you specifically manage
that? I mean, I think it helps that I
don't, it doesn't work, doesn't feel like work.
I mean, that's the first thing to me.
Work doesn't feel like work. So I don't really notice when
(17:24):
I'm working, when I'm not working.
It's just, you know, every day is a good day.
And then and I kind of just keepgoing at it.
And, and, and I think another thing that was really, really
important is your team, right? Like, I mean, the team that we
have at the firm is just so terrific.
And maybe that's why I worked doesn't feel like work is
because everybody is just so great and just does their part.
And honestly, if it wasn't for the team, I don't know what we
(17:47):
would do, what I would do here. I mean, I'm, I'm, you know,
without them, I'm nothing. My partner Igor is also, you
know, a terrific, terrific lawyer and the terrific team
member. So I mean, I, I don't know if
it's really just, yeah. So work life balance, I think
from that perspective, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's,
(18:09):
it's a mixture of kind of how you feel about it.
I mean, if work doesn't feel like work and then then you know
what, what is work life balance,then, you know, to me, that's
all life. I think that's what, that's one
aspect of it from I guess a practical perspective, we are a
firm that has a 1200 billable hour target.
I mean, that's a very, very low and reasonable target compared
to a lot of firms out there. They have much higher, other
(18:31):
firms have much higher target out there.
So that enables people at the firm to, to have, I think a, a
work life balance. And the fact that we work from
home is another aspect, right? If you think about how long
people spend and the commute, ifyou're going half an hour to
work, half an hour from work every single day, 50 work day
working days per year, you're spending 250 hours in traffic.
(18:54):
We're on the train or something like that, that we are, you
know, virtual for him. First.
We do have some physical officeswhere people can come in, but
that's entirely optional. So that saves a lot of time and
that enables people that work here to have a real work life
balance. You know, when you, when you
have a lower billable hour target, when you have, you know,
no commute, it really adds up and makes it for a really
enjoyable environment to be in. And and and for non work
(19:18):
obligations, non work things to to to to to the part you know
that enables people to take partin things that they might not
necessarily have time for otherwise.
That's fantastic. No, I love that.
Beyond the DIS aspect, I think another aspect that can be quite
important is also mentorship andhow you start that early on and
how you see people who you admire and sometimes will give
(19:41):
you some tips and advice, whether through like a formal
mentorship or just really true being helpful.
So I'd love to hear a little more about that in your
perspective as well, if, if you had big influences that mentored
you and helped you early on, andthen also how that translates
into into how you try to be a mentor to others today.
(20:02):
Yeah, I think is there a phrase that you're a product of like
the five people you spend the most time with, So I think it's
helpful to surround yourself with.
Great people that you can learn from and they can challenge you.
I think that's that's important.And I think again, having a
great team around me is, is phenomenal.
And, and you know, we all mentoreach other in some way, shape or
(20:24):
form as by virtual working together and helping each other
out. In terms of maybe like more
formal, you know, maybe not formal, but more, more people
who I look up to, you know, people like Warren Buffett and
Charlie Munger are probably someof the people I really, really
admire, not for necessarily their financial acumen, which is
which is great, but just for theway that they live their life
(20:45):
and the values that they uphold.I think that's really important.
You know, it's just, you look atWarren Buffett and you know, he
lives very, very simple life, very humble life.
And, you know, at the age of 94 that he still goes into work and
he, you know, does what he lovesdoing.
I've, you know, I, I love what Ido.
And he, he, you know, he talks about skipping into work and
(21:07):
I'm, I'm grateful that I have the same kind of experience
skipping into work myself. So it's a lot of fun to do what
you enjoy doing. So I, I really look up to people
like Warren Buffett and Charlie Munger just for their life
lessons and principles that they're willing to share,
obviously not directly, but through their, you know,
writings and, and just watching videos and their experiences.
(21:27):
You know, it's always a good idea to, to learn from the
experiences of others. I, I tried to do that on the
legal front. I mean, I worked with some
incredible lawyers in my life and you learn a lot from the
lawyers that you work with. Now, a few names that come to
mind. Goss currency was, for example,
he taught me something incredibly valuable.
(21:48):
You don't always answer your phone call, right.
So if you got a phone on, you get a call from the client
answer call clients really appreciate that.
You have Pat Marley, for example, who is just not only
incredible technical lawyer, butalso an incredible, you know,
rainmaker. So, and there's, there's lots of
examples that, you know, you admire and, and learn from
(22:09):
people, all sorts of things thatHelen Kennebeck, another lawyer
who, you know, you, you notice how he treats students and how
he treats partners, etcetera. And everybody's treated the
same. And I was just, you know, you
observe that me saying what a gentleman and in, in the way
that he approaches things. There's lots of just terrific
lawyers out there who I was fortunate to work with at some
(22:32):
point and to observe. Also, you know, I can't
necessarily call them all my formal mentors, but there there
are people that inspire me to bea better lawyer and who have
taught me a lot along the way. I love that.
No, I really like that you that you mentioned that especially
when people might feel, you know, that they they need to
have those formal mentor relationships.
Mentorship can really be found anywhere.
(22:53):
It can be found in books that can be found through, you know,
seeing how other people live their lives.
So I really appreciate that it doesn't necessarily come from a
one-on-one conversation of somebody who's continually
checking on you and all that. So really nice insight that one.
You know, as we've been hearing from lawyers around the world on
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To to wrap up today's episode, Iwas wondering if you have a
piece of advice that you'd like to give to law students or
(24:19):
lawyers who are just starting off their careers.
These podcasts main audience arepeople in that demographic right
now. So I'd love to hear what kind of
thing maybe you wish you had heard earlier in your career or
something that looking at the market nowadays you notice.
Love to hear some of your thoughts.
Yeah, sure. I mean, I think law students
have a lot of options. So they could go and work at a
(24:41):
large firm, a small firm, they could work in government, but
they cannot pursue career in law.
I think it's all subject to individual preferences, right?
And it's not for me to you tell anyone what what they will enjoy
doing. And I think it's important for
people to consider what they enjoy doing and making that
decision. Yeah.
You know, I, I always thought that, you know, I want to live
(25:01):
my life in a way that minimizes the number of regrets that I
have. And the path that I'm following
is, is the one that that that allows me to do that right?
That if if I'm old, I want to say I live the life the way I
wanted to live, live it. And I find that sometimes people
don't do that. Sometimes people do things for
procedure, for money or for other things.
And they don't necessarily enjoytheir life and, and, and, and
(25:22):
they are not happy. I would rather be, have no money
and be very happy and what with what I'm doing there rather than
have lots of money and big miserable.
That's kind of been my general approach in life.
And I think it worked really well for me and I hope it works
well for others. As I said, I skip into work
every single day kind of like we're involved with this.
It's, it's, it's, it's a lot of fun.
(25:44):
I enjoy opening up emails. I look forward to Mondays.
I mean, it's just some weird things for, for potentially for
some people, right, But but not for me.
And I find that if you enjoy what you're doing, if you enjoy
the people that you're working with and you get the right
spouse, the rest of the life doesn't really matter too much.
Get those three things right. The rest is easy.
(26:06):
So that's kind of my parting devices that are trying to focus
on and on on those three things as students get a job or do what
you enjoy doing, work with people you enjoy working with
and and and and and find the right spouse and then the rest
should just take care of that onmy.
Mind, that's fantastic. Well, Alex, really thank you so
much for taking the time to be apart of the podcast today.
(26:27):
Really appreciate. It my pleasure Claudia, thank
you very much for having. Me Thank you all for tuning in
and we'll see you on the next episode.
Welcome to studying Law around the world.
I'm Claudio Claus. In each episode, I talk with
lawyers, law students, and professors from different parts
of the world to talk about legaleducation, careers, and what the
profession looks like in real life.
We talk about the hard parts, the surprises, and the decisions
that shaped their paths. Whether you're planning to study
abroad, thinking about working in another legal system, or just
(00:35):
curious about how law works around the world, this podcast.
Is for you. If you're an internationally
trained lawyer or law student working in or trying to break
into an English speaking common law system, you know that legal
writing is one of the biggest challenges and one of the most
(00:56):
important skills to master. That's where Grammatica comes
in. I'm Rebecca Lockwood, the
lawyer, mediator, educator and founder of Grammatica
International. We help lawyers and law students
to write sharper, speak clearer,and land more interviews with on
demand online courses, live workshops and one-on-one
(01:17):
consulting designed just for legal professionals.
I have worked with so many lawyers like you who are
exceptionally smart, qualified and capable, but need some
guidance to really stand out in a competitive legal market.
And I get it myself, having lived and worked in five
countries during my 17 years in law and education.
Whether you're looking to sharpen your writing skills
(01:39):
generally, refresh your CD, or draft an application for a law
program, Grammatica can help. Visit Grammatico to get started.
Today I have the opportunity to interview Alex Glickman.
He's a tax lawyer and also the founder of Taxpayer Law.
(02:01):
Thank you so much for joining ustoday.
Alex, my pleasure, Claudia, thanks for having.
Me amazing so she start today's episode.
I'd love to hear a little bit about your story.
So can you introduce yourself toour audience and share about
your journey through law school based treat and also starting
your own firm? Yeah, sure.
I mean the genesis of it, I was born abroad, you know, single
(02:22):
mother parent, came to Canada with a couple of kids and it
wasn't any easy life unnecessarily when I started
off. But you know, lots of people go
through the immigrant experience, so it's nothing
crucial for Canada. And so then I did my undergrad
at York, I guess because I didn't really want to change
the, the design on my wall in terms of the degrees.
(02:42):
I wanted to make sure all the degrees look the same on
identical. I continued my journey at York
and I got my JD, MBA, York. So all my degrees are from York.
So now they look really nice andpolished on the wall.
And yeah, that's kind of been myeducational journey.
Went to Osgood and graduated. Wasn't really sure what to do
with, you know, with, with, withmy life, but I didn't really
want to provide for my family. So I, I got a job on B Street.
(03:06):
I worked at one firm for a few years, then worked at another
firm for, for, for a few years, But I was fully an entrepreneur
by nature. It's, uh, it made sense for me
to do my own firm. I, I think it was kind of always
within me. I always had my own clients I
found and I always, you know, had the drive to build something
(03:30):
in my own, whether in law or elsewhere.
I started a business when I was,you know, he could say 6 year
old. So like I've, I've sold things,
I collected golf balls and golf courses and sold them, you know,
did all sorts of little things kind of to make, make some
money. So I was always kind of
entrepreneurial by nature. So kind of made sense for me to
go and start my own law firm. And I don't think the big law
(03:53):
path would necessarily give me the flexibility to do what I
wanted to do. And I didn't necessarily want to
do just law. I wanted to build a business, I
wanted to do investment stuff. I enjoy reading, so I wanted to
spend some time reading as well.Until, you know, having your own
firm, you kind of you're, you'refree to do whatever you want to
do. If you want to do a podcast, you
can do podcast right, which which is great.
(04:17):
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Amazing. So I, I've, I've read some of
what you put there on on LinkedIn for context, a lot of
my audience here in the podcast.Are early career.
(06:10):
Professionals or law students, afrequent question that ends up
coming over and over again is how do you decide your area of
practice? So I wanted to ask you, what
made you choose tax? And I've, I've read a few of
your comments saying that it offers electoral challenges,
work life balance, satisfaction.But was there a specific moment
or experience that made that click for you?
(06:31):
Or was it more of a realization that you had over the years?
Well, I think when I worked at alarge law firm, what was helpful
is that you're able to experience multiple practice
serious something that you don'tnecessarily get a smaller
boutique shop where there's one practice here.
So I tax is not something necessarily I thought of until I
worked in the tax group. At the time.
(06:52):
I did take it a few tax courses and I thought they were great.
I also were like tort law, though.
So my first summer I spent in the tort department, the group's
called the store group. So I was able to experience
that. But what really attracted me to
tax is just kind of it aligned with the way that I think.
And I'm more of a logical numerical thinker and tax in the
(07:14):
basic essence of it. You know, the Income Tax Act is,
you know, a formula. It's it's it's very, you know,
long formula and, and, and written with using a lot of
words. But at the end of the day, it is
a formula. So that's that's why I was
attracted to tax. There's other areas, as I said,
I'd like tort law, but I don't think it really, you know, while
I liked it, it didn't really make sense with my background.
(07:35):
I kind of had a business undergrad, business MBA.
So, so tax kind of made sense with that background.
And I can also see myself working in competition law.
I like a comics on competition. Well, I think it's another area
that that that's quite interesting to me.
So yeah, I, I think there's no backgrounds, but the reason why
I chose taxes because it just made a lot of sense to me.
And, and you're right to point out that tax lawyers seem to be
(07:58):
happy. You know, multiple surveys and
studies suggest that tax lawyersrank often the most in the most
satisfied to most, most satisfied legal professionals
out there. And I think the reason for it
is, is probably, you know, the fact that it's the Tax Act is
like a puzzle. You got to try to figure things
out. It's a, you know, the laws
(08:19):
always changing. It's impossible to know it all.
You're always kind of digging, digging through it.
You're always learning, you're attending CPD events, You were
able to publish a lot, you know,kind of challenge yourself and,
and, and, and try to kind of find and answers sometimes the
questions that he answers that don't exist.
And you're trying to kind of come up with, with those answers
(08:39):
using, using whatever information is out there.
And so it makes, it makes it quite interesting.
And I kind of prior to this podcast, did a little bit of
research and it seems that, you know, results have showed that
tax associates have the highest job satisfaction of all practice
areas, which is pretty awesome. And there was a survey which was
done with the question of would you choose your, your practice
(09:03):
area again as a metric for happiness?
And 89% of tax attorneys said they would choose the same job
again. So the highest of any practice
group, which, which is, which ispretty remarkable, but I've seen
this before. So it's, it doesn't really
surprise me. It's not a surprising outcome,
but what I think it shows is that it really is a terrific
practicer out there in terms of work life balance.
(09:24):
Again, in fewer and tax litigation, you were, you have
a, you know, you have trials, ofcourse, you have various, you
know, various discoveries, etcetera, but you have a
calendar by which you follow. So it's kind of structured and
predictable. Tax planning is also, it could
be hectic, but there's an element of predictability there.
There isn't a lot of overnights I'll find in working as a tax or
(09:45):
which also really helps with with happiness and satisfaction.
No, that's amazing that that might, you know, give some some
food for thought for people who are deciding which practice area
they wanna go into and going forward.
You know, another of the facts here that I wanted to ask you
about is about building a practice as well.
You build your own from the ground up.
(10:05):
And I'd love to hear, you know, a little bit about what are some
of the hardest decisions you have to do.
I know it's not always easy to leave the comfort of staying in
a firm and then also maybe like the learning curves that you
have in those first years. And then also, what would you
say to somebody who's considering the same path?
I think first thing, it would behelpful to our a few years
(10:25):
behind your back, regardless of whether you're in tax or another
practice. I mean, I think it's really
difficult to start a fire without having any practical
experience. Law school doesn't teach you a
lot of practical skills. And I think, you know, having
that experience very helpful, especially in tax where the
learning curve is much greater. So I think that's the first
thing that somebody considering going out on their own, I would
(10:46):
suggest that they go and work somewhere so that it's so they
can gain those skills and experience.
That's the first thing. But just starting it off on my
own for what were the challenges?
I think one challenges kind of to stay within your circle of
competence. Right?
When I started off, I had 0 files.
I, you know, I left the work, You know, you, you want to drum
(11:08):
up some work, but you also want to drum up some work that fits
within your circle of competence.
And I'm using the term Warren Buffett that's using the
investment world, but I think italso applies to the legal
profession. You don't want to necessarily
double outside what your comfortzone is an outside.
What should you do when you're starting on your own 0 files?
Of course, there's, there's, youknow, potential pressures there
(11:30):
too, to go out and just get workfor the sake of work.
But I think my, my advice to anybody starting off on their
own would be to stay within yourcircle of competence and reject
the work that doesn't make senseto take on.
I think it's, you know, helps with limiting potential
liability and builds that expertise that, that a lawyer
has on a certain practice here. And that of course, not building
upon that expertise is kind of aflywheel, right?
(11:51):
You get better and better at something and then you can get
more work within that circle of competence and and and continue
that flywheel. Whether you're studying law in
Mumbai or practising in Manhattan, Rev can help you
transcribe and analyze all your case materials with
verifiablecitations.learnmore@rev.com.So that those are kind of, you
(12:20):
know, the, the, the basic things, I think from a business
perspective, you know, you want to make sure you monitor cash
flow, right? Because when you're starting off
and you have no files, even if you get one file, you're, you've
got to do the work, you've got to send the bill and you got to
get paid. So if you think of, you know,
doing the work, how long will that take you?
A couple of months, right? Sending the bill, you sent it
out, let's say at the end of thecouple months, takes you a
(12:41):
couple months to get paid, right?
So all of a sudden there's no cash for four months in my
example. And, and that's a, that's
tricky. So the first year is very
difficult from a casual perspective.
So it's as a result, it's important to kind of keep your
costs down when you're starting off referral.
We didn't have an office physical office at the time and
just had a mailing address at the time when I started.
(13:01):
Got your own laptop law for insurance practice management
software perhaps and some other tools, but very, very limited.
You don't need a lot of resources to run the offer
effectively nowadays. The barriers to entry into the
legal profession are fairly low.After you get your logic, you're
actually opening up your own farm isn't necessarily that hard
and order to what you got to do in order to start up firm.
It used to be much more difficult, right?
(13:23):
There were a lot of administrative hurdles, but
there's software tools now that enable you to send the bill
seamlessly with absolute ease would enable you to track your
time, you know, seemingly with ease.
It is much easier than it used to be to just try to offer your
firm, hang your own shingle and start doing the legal work.
I remember talking to a practitioner who, you know,
really started in these in Rennison from the 80s or 90s,
(13:45):
right? And one of the things he
complained about was that, you know, it was just too hard, too
much admin burden and running our firm nowadays that had been
Burton was just lower. So it makes it much easier to
start keeping costs low. Don't be afraid to fire, but
hire careful. I think that's another piece of
advice really, you know, otherwise you'll stay by
yourself all the time. And it's, it's a lot more fun to
work in a team to build something.
(14:07):
So we're fortunate to, to, to begrowing into being some very,
very good growth and to have a team with us that's, that's
exceptionally strong for a smaller firm.
And that's probably another challenge is how you build a
team that's exceptionally small,strong firm.
And you know, we, we just have to be very careful with their
hiring, recruiting selection process.
And, and that's what worked for us kind of relating to keeping
(14:29):
costs low. And, and that, that, you know,
cash flow crunch is, you know, you gotta build time only when
you, when you, when you're running and especially at the
beginning, right, you do want toget cash for, and I think that's
another piece of advice. You want to have a regular cat
cadence for billing. So we bill monthly, for example,
every month, you know, at the beginning of the month, somebody
goes into the bill, sends them all out.
And then and it's, it's, it's a routine and everybody enters
(14:53):
their dockets sometime. And we, you know, we send an
e-mail around the firm saying, you know, stand the month after
your doctors because we're billing and you need the cash in
order to keep the fire going andkeep the firm growing.
And it with the growing firm, ofcourse, that's a challenge
because you, you know, you need the cash not just to kind of
satisfy current obligations, butif you're growing, you got to
ensure that you have enough cashfor working capital and other
(15:14):
things that you're investing in order to like, if you want to
hire somebody, you hire them today, you gotta pay them today,
but it might take a few months for them to, to, to generate any
revenue, right? So you got to pay today?
Amazing. That's fantastic.
I think those are all things that people who are considering
that path should keep in mind and tell very much about the
practical side of it. So thank you for for going into
(15:37):
those details. I think that can be quite
straightforward when you have the right guidance and the right
business mindset. But maybe it's a little bit
daunting when you first notice all the big list of things that
you have to do. It is, it is, and I find that
really set us apart. Well, you know, because, you
know, law firm is a law firm, but I think if you, you got, if
(15:57):
you're creative in the way you do things, that really pushes
you to be different and that really makes the difference.
I think in terms of, you know, whether it's a highly successful
firm or not a successful firm. So we're pretty creative and
marketing. We're pretty creative and hiring
the way we approach, for example, we don't do regular OC
I, we just don't go through the process because you're competing
(16:17):
with everyone else. And we just decided we're not
going to compete in that process.
There's no need for that. So we hire differently and we
and we do marketing differently.And, and I think that's one of
the key reasons for our success.So that's my, my advice to
anybody starting your own forms,kind of think outside of the
box, think how you can do thingsdifferently.
Try to take, you know, see if there is any paths out there
that nobody's taking before perhaps, but there are and and
(16:40):
and perhaps they'll work really,really well if you do take that.
Fantastic. And on that same note about
creativity and all of that, I'veread quite a bit of what you put
out there on LinkedIn on work life balance, parenting and so
forth. And out of curiosity, I'd love
to know a little bit about how do you manage running a growing
firm while staying present, you know, both as a father, a
(17:02):
partner. So is there any kind of like
routine or boundary that is specifically help you or, or
it's kind of everybody's on board and you know, type
sometimes they're busier at the firm, sometimes they're busier
in family. How do you specifically manage
that? I mean, I think it helps that I
don't, it doesn't work, doesn't feel like work.
I mean, that's the first thing to me.
Work doesn't feel like work. So I don't really notice when
(17:24):
I'm working, when I'm not working.
It's just, you know, every day is a good day.
And then and I kind of just keepgoing at it.
And, and, and I think another thing that was really, really
important is your team, right? Like, I mean, the team that we
have at the firm is just so terrific.
And maybe that's why I worked doesn't feel like work is
because everybody is just so great and just does their part.
And honestly, if it wasn't for the team, I don't know what we
(17:47):
would do, what I would do here. I mean, I'm, I'm, you know,
without them, I'm nothing. My partner Igor is also, you
know, a terrific, terrific lawyer and the terrific team
member. So I mean, I, I don't know if
it's really just, yeah. So work life balance, I think
from that perspective, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's,
(18:09):
it's a mixture of kind of how you feel about it.
I mean, if work doesn't feel like work and then then you know
what, what is work life balance,then, you know, to me, that's
all life. I think that's what, that's one
aspect of it from I guess a practical perspective, we are a
firm that has a 1200 billable hour target.
I mean, that's a very, very low and reasonable target compared
to a lot of firms out there. They have much higher, other
(18:31):
firms have much higher target out there.
So that enables people at the firm to, to have, I think a, a
work life balance. And the fact that we work from
home is another aspect, right? If you think about how long
people spend and the commute, ifyou're going half an hour to
work, half an hour from work every single day, 50 work day
working days per year, you're spending 250 hours in traffic.
(18:54):
We're on the train or something like that, that we are, you
know, virtual for him. First.
We do have some physical officeswhere people can come in, but
that's entirely optional. So that saves a lot of time and
that enables people that work here to have a real work life
balance. You know, when you, when you
have a lower billable hour target, when you have, you know,
no commute, it really adds up and makes it for a really
enjoyable environment to be in. And and and for non work
(19:18):
obligations, non work things to to to to to the part you know
that enables people to take partin things that they might not
necessarily have time for otherwise.
That's fantastic. No, I love that.
Beyond the DIS aspect, I think another aspect that can be quite
important is also mentorship andhow you start that early on and
how you see people who you admire and sometimes will give
(19:41):
you some tips and advice, whether through like a formal
mentorship or just really true being helpful.
So I'd love to hear a little more about that in your
perspective as well, if, if you had big influences that mentored
you and helped you early on, andthen also how that translates
into into how you try to be a mentor to others today.
(20:02):
Yeah, I think is there a phrase that you're a product of like
the five people you spend the most time with, So I think it's
helpful to surround yourself with.
Great people that you can learn from and they can challenge you.
I think that's that's important.And I think again, having a
great team around me is, is phenomenal.
And, and you know, we all mentoreach other in some way, shape or
(20:24):
form as by virtual working together and helping each other
out. In terms of maybe like more
formal, you know, maybe not formal, but more, more people
who I look up to, you know, people like Warren Buffett and
Charlie Munger are probably someof the people I really, really
admire, not for necessarily their financial acumen, which is
which is great, but just for theway that they live their life
(20:45):
and the values that they uphold.I think that's really important.
You know, it's just, you look atWarren Buffett and you know, he
lives very, very simple life, very humble life.
And, you know, at the age of 94 that he still goes into work and
he, you know, does what he lovesdoing.
I've, you know, I, I love what Ido.
And he, he, you know, he talks about skipping into work and
(21:07):
I'm, I'm grateful that I have the same kind of experience
skipping into work myself. So it's a lot of fun to do what
you enjoy doing. So I, I really look up to people
like Warren Buffett and Charlie Munger just for their life
lessons and principles that they're willing to share,
obviously not directly, but through their, you know,
writings and, and just watching videos and their experiences.
(21:27):
You know, it's always a good idea to, to learn from the
experiences of others. I, I tried to do that on the
legal front. I mean, I worked with some
incredible lawyers in my life and you learn a lot from the
lawyers that you work with. Now, a few names that come to
mind. Goss currency was, for example,
he taught me something incredibly valuable.
(21:48):
You don't always answer your phone call, right.
So if you got a phone on, you get a call from the client
answer call clients really appreciate that.
You have Pat Marley, for example, who is just not only
incredible technical lawyer, butalso an incredible, you know,
rainmaker. So, and there's, there's lots of
examples that, you know, you admire and, and learn from
(22:09):
people, all sorts of things thatHelen Kennebeck, another lawyer
who, you know, you, you notice how he treats students and how
he treats partners, etcetera. And everybody's treated the
same. And I was just, you know, you
observe that me saying what a gentleman and in, in the way
that he approaches things. There's lots of just terrific
lawyers out there who I was fortunate to work with at some
(22:32):
point and to observe. Also, you know, I can't
necessarily call them all my formal mentors, but there there
are people that inspire me to bea better lawyer and who have
taught me a lot along the way. I love that.
No, I really like that you that you mentioned that especially
when people might feel, you know, that they they need to
have those formal mentor relationships.
Mentorship can really be found anywhere.
(22:53):
It can be found in books that can be found through, you know,
seeing how other people live their lives.
So I really appreciate that it doesn't necessarily come from a
one-on-one conversation of somebody who's continually
checking on you and all that. So really nice insight that one.
You know, as we've been hearing from lawyers around the world on
(23:14):
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To to wrap up today's episode, Iwas wondering if you have a
piece of advice that you'd like to give to law students or
(24:19):
lawyers who are just starting off their careers.
These podcasts main audience arepeople in that demographic right
now. So I'd love to hear what kind of
thing maybe you wish you had heard earlier in your career or
something that looking at the market nowadays you notice.
Love to hear some of your thoughts.
Yeah, sure. I mean, I think law students
have a lot of options. So they could go and work at a
(24:41):
large firm, a small firm, they could work in government, but
they cannot pursue career in law.
I think it's all subject to individual preferences, right?
And it's not for me to you tell anyone what what they will enjoy
doing. And I think it's important for
people to consider what they enjoy doing and making that
decision. Yeah.
You know, I, I always thought that, you know, I want to live
(25:01):
my life in a way that minimizes the number of regrets that I
have. And the path that I'm following
is, is the one that that that allows me to do that right?
That if if I'm old, I want to say I live the life the way I
wanted to live, live it. And I find that sometimes people
don't do that. Sometimes people do things for
procedure, for money or for other things.
And they don't necessarily enjoytheir life and, and, and, and
(25:22):
they are not happy. I would rather be, have no money
and be very happy and what with what I'm doing there rather than
have lots of money and big miserable.
That's kind of been my general approach in life.
And I think it worked really well for me and I hope it works
well for others. As I said, I skip into work
every single day kind of like we're involved with this.
It's, it's, it's, it's a lot of fun.
(25:44):
I enjoy opening up emails. I look forward to Mondays.
I mean, it's just some weird things for, for potentially for
some people, right, But but not for me.
And I find that if you enjoy what you're doing, if you enjoy
the people that you're working with and you get the right
spouse, the rest of the life doesn't really matter too much.
Get those three things right. The rest is easy.
(26:06):
So that's kind of my parting devices that are trying to focus
on and on on those three things as students get a job or do what
you enjoy doing, work with people you enjoy working with
and and and and and find the right spouse and then the rest
should just take care of that onmy.
Mind, that's fantastic. Well, Alex, really thank you so
much for taking the time to be apart of the podcast today.
(26:27):
Really appreciate. It my pleasure Claudia, thank
you very much for having. Me Thank you all for tuning in
and we'll see you on the next episode.
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