April 16, 2025 • 33 mins
Today we’ll be speaking with Gina Alexandris, Career Coach & Consultant for Legal Professionals. Gina’s own beliefs and values have been shaped by both her professional and academic experiences, and her experiences as the daughter of Greek immigrants to Canada, being a wife, mother, sister and aunt.
Before becoming a full-time Coach and Consultant for the Legal Profession, Gina held these formal roles: Senior Director, Law Practice Program at TMU (formerly Ryerson University); and Special Advisor to the Lincoln Alexander School of Law; Director of the Strategic Planning Unit with the Legal Services Division at the Ministry of the Attorney General; Director of the Internationally Trained Lawyers Program at the University of Toronto Faculty of Law; and Assistant Dean and Director of Career Services at Osgoode Hall Law School. Before that, she practised civil litigation and family law.
Lifelong learning is a core value and passion for Gina, who holds degrees from Osgoode Hall Law School, UofT/OISE (in Adult Education), a Certificate of Completion for the Art and Practice of Leadership Development Program at the Harvard Kennedy School and earned her Associate Certified Coach (ACC) credential from the International Coaching Federation.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:11):
Hello, everybody. Welcome to another episode of
Studying Law Around the World. Today I have the honor to
welcome Gina Alexandris to join us and to share a little bit
about her personal journey in law and to share with us also
about the work that she does these days helping
internationally trained lawyers and lawyers in general with
clarity in their careers. Thank you so much for joining us
(00:34):
today, Gina. It is such a pleasure to be
here, Claudio. Thank you for having.
Me thank you for joining us and choose start our meeting today,
our podcast. I'd love for you to introduce
yourself to our listeners. Would you be able to tell us
about yourself and your career? Absolutely.
I start off by saying two things.
One is that my childhood as a child of immigrant parents has
(00:56):
impacted me in ways that I don'tthink I appreciated when I was
growing up and as I was even a young adult.
And the second thing is that I have had opportunities that did
not exist when I was in law school and when I graduated from
law school. And so I always remind people
that first of all, to think about what is important to you
and second of all, to understandthat there are pathways ahead of
(01:19):
you that you may not realize. So with that in mind, want to
start off wanting to be a teacher, but then because of a
circumstance that happened to myparents with a legal matter, I
realized that they didn't have access to a lot of legal
representation and I switched from wanting to go into teaching
to wanting to go into law. As a result, went to law school,
graduated and worked in a small Toronto firm practicing civil
(01:40):
and family litigation and enjoyed a lot of elements of it
over a period of about four years.
But as I'll discuss later on, something else kept drawing me.
And remember what I said about going back to sort of things
that are of importance to you. Through a variety of ways, I
found my way to a new role that was opening up at Osgoode Hall
Law School to start the career development office.
(02:00):
And it seemed to be the right place at the right time in the
right opportunity and took that role, not having a clue what it
meant to be part of a career development office because at
that time we didn't have them inCanadian law schools.
Worked there and really found a great fit for me and worked
there for about 3 years before the opportunity to become
assistant Dean of the law schoolcame up.
(02:22):
And I remember Claudia and I usethis example for many thinking,
I'm not ready for this. This is, this is a leap role or
a stretch role. How can I possibly even think
about it at this stage? It's too soon.
But then a little voice in me said, yeah, but the next person
who does it might be there for along while.
You might lose this opportunity.Why not try?
And so with that and a lot of support and encouragement from
(02:43):
people that I knew and loved andtrusted, I put my hand in for
that and got the role. And, and I was the person who
kept the role for the next 9 years and it was a fabulous
opportunity to engage with the legal community, students,
faculty in ways that I had not even anticipated before.
And Fast forward a total of 12 years at Osgood, the University
(03:04):
of Toronto Faculty of Law had gotten funding from the province
to start something called the Internationally Trained Lawyers
program. We had a few ITL's who were
coming in through the NCAA applicant process at Osgood, but
there were very few other resources at the time for
internationally trained lawyers.And again, change is hard.
Going to the competing law school, quote UN quote, even
(03:26):
though we had a lot of collaboration was hard.
Osgood had been my alma mater, but I decided let me try it.
Let me do it went to the ITL theand started the internationally
trained lawyers program with a group of phenomenal colleagues
and really started seeing what the world of ITL's is like.
And as I go back to as a kid of immigrants, many experiences
(03:46):
that they were facing were stillvery similar, although there
were some that were very different.
Was really, really happy to be part of that world and to
understand to be able to offer things to Itls that had not been
available, including community before.
And what I saw from that point was that a number of different
programs started coming up afterthat at EU of T at Osgood across
(04:07):
Canada, programs that were formal programs, informal
programs. And it was that voice was
starting to get louder and I wasreally, really happy about that.
Somewhere along the lines in about 3 or 4 years that I was at
the ILP, the Ministry of the Attorney General came calling
and said we need somebody to do some of our strategy and
professional development for ourlawyers.
(04:27):
Would you come? And I thought, this is a group
public service that I had not worked with before and I knew
what private practice was like. I wanted to do that.
I made this shift and did it andwas really blessed to meet a
number of bright, talented giving individuals and
discovered what the OS, the Ontario Public Service has to
offer for lawyers that I hadn't appreciated before.
(04:48):
But then Fast forward the opportunity to start yet another
program at the third university in Toronto, Van Ryerson, now TM
U came up. They had gotten the approval to
launch the English version of the law practice program and
that that pull to start something new to support people
(05:08):
who otherwise we're finding challenges just was too, too
strong. Made the leap and spent about
close to 9 years with the university with the law practice
program and also starting and helping to develop the their new
law school, which was a phenomenal experience.
So again, if you had asked me atgraduation, what would I be
doing? I would have told you civil and
family litigation forever and ever never even because each of
(05:31):
those worlds that I mentioned were brand new did not even
exist. And and then I had while at UFT,
I had started my coach training and it was time about 2 1/2
years ago for me to pursue that full time and made the difficult
but easy decision to again switch and move into the
entrepreneurial role which I'm in now, which is supporting
(05:53):
lawyers and law students and other professionals as they
navigate leadership transitions,changes generally and watch
their successes. So that's in a nutshell.
That's amazing. I feel like not not a lot of
professionals have had the exposure you had to this whole
world of internationally trainedlawyers, programming development
and the legal field itself. So it's just fantastic to hear
(06:16):
about your story. And, and I feel like there is a
common thread connecting all of these career choices.
I think I mentioned it before ina few podcasts and there's this
graduation speech by Steve Jobs where he talks about connecting
the dots when you look backward and all of that.
And I, I'd love to know, you know, after holding such like a
wide range of roles across leadership, law, education, what
(06:40):
would you say that connects these points in your career over
the years? It's interesting because believe
it or not, this was when I was thinking about leaving law or
not figure not sure what I wanted to do while I was in
practice. Something felt off but I wasn't
quite sure I could identify whatit was and I went to a then
career psychologist. We didn't have coaches
necessarily that time and one ofthe first her sizes she asked me
(07:02):
to do was do a quote UN quote life map to see sort of what
were the highs and the lows and you sort of that I experienced
up until that point and to help connect the dots.
So that exercise is a phenomenalexercise for all of us to do a
different stages. The first one certainly came up
at that time and has been consistent and that's the idea
of personal and professional development growth.
(07:23):
My father was an individual who had a grade 3 education and yet
really craved and really encouraged learning.
And I think I've taken that on in ways that I had not not
necessarily appreciated, but my own and others.
Personal and professional development is something that is
a critical theme and a critical dot throughout all of the roles
(07:45):
that I've had and personally. But what I've discovered, and
this is this I think I discovered during my coach
training, the second theme or the second connecting the dot is
celebration and celebrating people's journeys.
Remind people of the celebrations as you're doing
with a lot of people and for people who aren't even in the
profession yet. Being able to hold the mirror
(08:05):
and spotlight and celebrate others has been what I enjoy
doing. My favorite part of my role at
at Osgood and at the ITLP and the LP were the convocations at
Osgood and the calls to the bar ceremony.
I had the benefit and the privilege of being on stage for
the calls to the bar ceremony. Those moments, those hours,
(08:27):
those celebrations sort of just highlight for me being able to
say you've got this, you've got this milestone, there's more to
go, but you'll be celebrated then as well.
And even being there in my coaching practice for the
celebration Solar Large that clients find themselves a new
job, a new understanding, a new philosophy, a change that they
were looking forward to. I think it's important for each
(08:49):
of us to be able to do it individually, but then to have
somebody champion us and that way I think is also important
and I enjoy that role. So the professional and personal
development and the celebration or championing of of peoples
successes I think are the 2 common links in everything that
I have done today. How has your idea of career
success changed overtime? I think think Claudio, that one
(09:12):
of the biggest ways it's changedfor me is taking it more from an
in, from an outward reflection. What do other people want me to
do? What do other people think I'm
good at? What do other people define the
success? How do other people view success
to more of an inward reflection and how do I define success?
What do I want? What does it look like to me?
And understanding and appreciating success looks so
(09:35):
different for every for each andevery person.
And to appreciate and to celebrate our own definition of
success. I can tell you that the pull
towards other people's goals andother people's definitions is so
very strong, especially in a profession like law.
It starts almost from the first day of law school.
See, it also starts from before we even get to law school.
(09:56):
I think good intentions on, on our schools, I was part of this
whole process where we want to see people see themselves in
leadership roles, But there's many ways of defining
leadership. There's many ways of defining
successes. And I think when you're able to
sift through the noise and when you're able to actually think
through what it is that you really want, what's important to
you, you can define success in the way that you want to.
(10:20):
And so I think that that shift for me more and it came and I'll
tell you this, I hadn't really made the connection until just
now when I was transitioning from the practice of law to my
new job at Osgood, which again, nobody knew what a career
development was or a career development, Sir.
I had no clue how to explain it to people.
Yet there was something there that was telling me, it's in
(10:40):
law, it's in legal education, it's helping people.
And it felt right at the time. But I remember my biggest you've
seen, and I'm sure others who might be watching know how close
I was to my parents and how remarkably impactful they were.
I remember being really nervous and ambivalent of telling my
father that I was not going to be a lawyer anymore.
That identity that people have. It's easy to define what a
(11:02):
lawyer is. And I still remember the time
when I was telling him and, and nervous that he'd be
disappointed, upset, fill in whatever word that that might be
applicable for you, because I had his definition.
You know, the successful lawyer,the successful advocate, the,
the, you know, the daughter who went on to, to go to law school
(11:24):
that when nobody else had my dadwas very practical man.
And I remember telling him very nervous and he, his response, he
looked at me and he said, are you going to be happy?
And I said, he had daddy. Actually, I think I will.
And he said, good, I'm very glad.
Then do what you do really well and be happy with it and I'll be
very happy for you. And all of a sudden, I thought
this man's definition of successis not what I had thought it
(11:44):
was. It was a very different success
definition. And it allowed me then to free
myself from outside definitions and start really thinking about
what my own definition. Was that's fantastic.
It's always inspiring to hear that and to have that family
support. I, you know, at times people
have asked how, how do you keep up with doing the LM and, and
(12:05):
you know, keeping this side projects, doing a podcast, part
time work and this and that. And honestly, without that
family help it, it wouldn't be the case for me.
So I feel very, very privileged to, to have that support.
And it's amazing to hear how you've got your experience that
you and thinking about your trajectory and the things that
you shared so far. You've worked closely with a lot
(12:27):
of internationally trained lawyers for many years.
And I was wondering what are some of the most common
challenges that you would see they facing when entering the
the legal market? And also, if I may ask, adding
to that question, how have you seen it changing overtime from
when you started to what you seewith your clients now?
Really great question. And I as you know, just before
(12:50):
we have taped this, I have sort of been immersed in ITL's, the
ITL conference in Calgary next year they're planning on having
it here in Toronto. So just a word of encouragement
to Itls to think about joining next year.
That thought really came up for me that your second thought,
especially in terms of what's changed and what's still the
same, because there's a lot that's still the same, but there
(13:11):
have been changes. And in terms of access to
information, I'll say the following.
There used to be few resources and few points of information,
and now there is so much and, and on the one hand, I am so
glad that there are more resources available for Itls.
What I'm hearing though, is thatpeople are so overwhelmed with
(13:32):
data and information. Sometimes they just don't know
how to start and how to access it.
So while it's there, it's the challenge of accessing it.
So the growth of data and information is really wonderful.
Let's talk about the elephant inthe room.
There's still stigma about Itls,although it's lessened with more
and more Itls speaking and supporting one another with more
(13:53):
champions of ITL's being vocal, the stigma has lessened, but
it's still there. And, and I think being able to
A, understand that it's there and B, work towards and find
your supports to be able to overcome that I think is really,
really critical. You mentioned the networks and
community support or family support.
(14:13):
So while you and I may have talked about families, one of
the challenges for a lot of Itlsis that they don't have.
And I don't know how many peopleI've spoken to who have said
I've got to do everything on my own because I don't have family
around. I don't have, many times I don't
have even friends. They've come completely not
knowing anybody around. And that lack of personal and
(14:33):
let alone professional networks or relationships or communities
is really challenging. And what I found is these
groups. So the change is that these
groups, whether it's the ITL network, whether it's an LLM,
these groups allow people to have the community that I felt
was so important when we startedthe ITLP at the University of
Toronto. It's that community of other
(14:54):
people who are in the same boat and get you understand that
you're juggling immigration challenges with figuring out
your next job, with getting thatthat training that you need with
looking for daycare for your child.
We had new babies born in each of the programs and then
individuals who were trying to juggle new parenthood with all
(15:15):
of that. It's the figuring out how to
cope with illness with people back home who you're so far from
and yet so dearly love. So community building here I
think is really a challenge, butalso something that I've seen
change. And one thing that I will say
continues to be a challenge and always has been is access to
(15:35):
that very first job. I think the other elements, the
access to information, the stigma, the community, all help
with access to that first legal job.
But that continues to be throughout the conference,
throughout people. When I have conversations with
people, that tends to be one of the first challenges.
I see fantastic. And and it seems like for that,
(15:56):
for that first opportunity, that's the one that hasn't
changed a whole lot then throughthe years.
Very interesting. So you've talked about, you
know, building careers with purpose and all of that and
mentioned now this is struggles.So what are some ways that
internationally trained lawyers can stay focused on their
purpose when they're navigating so many transitions?
(16:16):
And I say that thinking about where there's so much to
consider here, but at times we, we and, and I catch myself
talking about this with colleagues as well, where at
this point, many people have a bit more clarity in their
careers. They've gone through know the
undergrad, many of us did have some legal experience before
starting this career here in Canada.
(16:36):
And then it seems like maybe an area of law is really open to
receiving people and that you can more easily find an
articling position in that area of law.
But you know, you, you really don't, you know, match that
area. And then what do you do?
Do you just, you know, take it so that you can get license or,
you know, so, so there's so manyreflections to make about that.
(16:59):
And I'd love to pick your brain a little bit and hear your
thoughts on that. Claudia, you've you've hit on
sort of a constant conversation that I have with ITL's the
balancing act, right? That has to take place, but also
when you use the word, and I'm so glad that you did the
reflection and the self reflection that we need to be
doing regularly. And, and you know, sometimes
people will say to me, I have notime to self reflect or I have
(17:21):
no time to, or energy to have the privilege of thinking
through what I want. I just need to get things done.
I need to get a job. I need to put food on the table.
And, and I always ask them just to pause because it's so really
important. I realize that there's a
privilege in being able to self reflect, but I think there's a
danger if you don't take that time and energy and space to
(17:41):
allow yourself to think about what's really important to you.
And it could be that what's really important to you at this
time maybe a little bit different than what was
important to you five years ago or two years ago, and what might
be important to you six or sevenyears down the road, for that
matter. So thinking about what's
important to you at this very time is critical.
And typically some of those values, some of those priorities
(18:03):
will be the same regardless of circumstances around us.
So if you think, for example, that time spent with family is
important, or if you think that being a subject expert in a
particular, just being a subjectexpert is important.
Or if you have a particular interest in and enthusiasm for a
particular area of law, intellectual property or family
(18:25):
law. Or if you think that right now
priority is money and you need financial stability because
that's been something that you are craving and have not been
able to establish. Each of those is a legitimate
goal to have. Each of those is illegitimate
value to have. Again, it goes back to the
inward versus the outward. Don't second guess yourself on
what your classmate is doing or what Claudio is saying he's
(18:47):
doing or what Gina is saying she's doing.
Thinking about what's important to you at any given time is
really, really important. And you know, many people say,
well, you know, our parents or whoever other immigrants were
thinking about didn't have the luxury of thinking about these
things. And I say, I bet you they did.
They just didn't formalize it orjust didn't think about doing
it. But I'm sure that when they were
looking for a first job, they may have been thinking right now
(19:10):
I don't have the luxury of financial stability.
I need that or right now I do. My circumstances are such.
Let me think about what I can look at.
So self reflection, I think on your values is important.
What matters to you most in any particular given time, speak to
someone about it, a good friend,a trusted colleague, a coach, an
instructor. People appear that you're
meeting, but don't necessarily just go with what they say.
(19:32):
Speak about it to get information, to hear your own
thoughts out loud. Because when we speak about
things in our head, Claudio, it's a jumble.
Sometimes we have to speak it through and speak it out.
And I always say to other things, maybe give yourself a
visual reminder. If family is a priority, put a
screenshot of family on your phone.
If excitement or travel or journey is is important or
(19:56):
priority, have a picture on youron your screen somewhere to
remind you of what that is if calm and stability.
Or financial success is what is motivating you right now.
Again, what's that visual reminder?
I also, and I don't know if you've ever done this.
I can't remember in any of your posts.
I've seen this and if, if, if you have, my apologies.
I sometimes get clients dues andI used to get our students to do
(20:16):
this. Do a letter to your future self
reminding you in the future whatis important to you right now.
And whether with wonder of technology, you can post market
for six months down the road fora year down the road for three
months down there for three years down the road.
You can use the you know, e-mailsend function to you.
(20:36):
Hopefully you won't change emails or you'll look at the
e-mail. You know, that will be a letter
to yourself and a reminder of what's important to yourself.
I think being able to talk through those issues on a
regular basis with somebody thatyou trust and believe in, but
also just to remind yourself of what's important today helps
when you're making decisions. And one of the exercises that I
(20:59):
do with my coaching clients is we go through this values
exercise where we talk through it.
And then as during our coaching engagement, as opportunities
come up, I always bring that back to people and say, remember
when we had this value exercise?How does this particular job
opportunity align with what's important?
And then we have to make decisions.
We're adults. And so sometimes if it aligns
(21:20):
with eight out of ten of our values, great.
Sometimes we have to make decisions that even if right now
this opportunity might not alignwith the majority of our values,
we need to take it for other reasons.
We're making an informed decision.
And I think that's really critical.
I'll give you a brief example. And again, it hadn't really,
they hadn't connected it until we had this conversation when I
(21:41):
was assistant Dean and I'd, I'd oftentimes get first year
students or even sometimes second year students come in to
me, especially first year students in the first few months
who would be questioning their choice of coming to law school.
Why did I decide to do it? I can't do it.
I'm, I'm stuck. I'm not sure it's what I really
want. And we had paper files in the
early days. I would go back and pull out
(22:03):
their admission letter or their application, their personal
statement and their application.And without them knowing what I
was doing, I would actually readout a portion of their personal
statement. And so they were hearing out
loud what they wrote anywhere from one to two or three years
earlier about why they wanted togo to law school.
And I don't know how many times I'd get stunned looks with who
(22:25):
was that person. Well, yeah, I forgot that that's
what I want to do. And then a conversation would
start. I still really wanna do that or,
you know, that was what I wantedthem.
But I think I've changed, and this is what I want to do.
But it sort of reminded people of what was in their head at
some point, and then they could think through why this was
important at this point. That's incredible.
What a privilege for those that got the chance to, to have that
(22:47):
done for them. That's so amazing.
Going forward. Here is our conversation and
wow, so many good reflections you're bringing.
Thank you so much. What kind of advice would you
give then to internationally trained lawyers who are trying
to to balance these ideas of meeting the licensing
requirements in trying to build a community in a network here in
Canada that will, you know, givethat that support that you just
(23:10):
mentioned that sometimes we havewith family, we have with
friends, and then, you know, juggling all of these things at
the same time. And then also, I guess that
network may also, you know, openjob opportunities.
So there's so much involved in the whole, you know, system of
different stakeholders involved.There is so much.
And this past weekend, the person who was being the MC for
(23:32):
the conference was an Ontario IIT L who actually knew from the
law practice program. But he was using a phrase when
people would, when he would be thanking speakers or panelists
or keynotes or whatnot. And he was using a phrase that I
hadn't really heard before. And as given what I said
earlier, it really resonated with me.
But instead of saying, you know,let's give them a round of
(23:54):
applause, which is sort of the typical thing, or let's, you
know, let's thank our guests or our speakers or panelists, He
would say, let's, let's celebrate them.
Let's join me in celebrating them.
And I want to do the same for you because I think what you are
asking and what you are doing for the ITL community really is
an incredible opportunity. And, and I want to celebrate you
(24:14):
and I want to celebrate all Itlswho may be listening.
And I want to celebrate all of the profession who is giving,
who are giving Itls that chance.And so that in terms of the
community building that you're asking me about, two things come
up in particular. One is to remember that this
process, as much as you want to get through it, as much as you
want to run through it and finish because you've got to
(24:36):
tick off everything on your checklist, right?
We all have this mental checklist done, done, done, done
or still in progress. Just remember, it's a marathon.
It's a marathon, not a Sprint. It is a long journey and it can
take you longer than you had anticipated, and that's OK.
It's not a Sprint. Don't try and rush through it.
You're going to miss so much if you try and rush through it.
And the other part that I will say, which sort of takes that
(24:58):
into account is include relationship building as part of
that process. When you think about, OK, first
the accreditation process, then the NCA process, I mean, then
the licensing process and as part of the licensing process,
exams or articling, then that first job after that.
And then of course, we compartmentalize all the other
things that we have to do in ourlife.
Personally perhaps. And my comment on that is think
(25:21):
about it all as one big journey,one big part of your journey.
And if we think about networkingor community building or
relationship building as a separate, it's going to
overwhelm us. Even with current lawyers who
are thinking about business development, I have to get
across to them and their mindsethas to change that.
In fact, business development isjust a part of the job.
(25:42):
When they think about the practice of law and I have to
build a portfolio or I have to build a client list, when they
think about it as separate, they're not going to give it the
attention they need. When we see it as all part of
the same process, there's more likelihood that we're going to
do it. So dedicate.
I often say, use it as one of your files.
If you're in the process and you're going through exams or
(26:04):
the LLM, think about the relationship building as one of
your courses. It's one of not a separate
thing. It's a part of and make the
time. Just as you're scheduling your
research or your class time, schedule it.
Put it in your calendar where you devote and you can determine
what's important and what's so, how much time you can do for it.
(26:24):
Doing some research about peopleyou wanna meet, sending out
those emails, having the coffee chats, following up with them
afterwards, attending events. Actually allot yourself a time.
And I know people are gonna say,Gina, I've got 24 hours in a
day. I need to sleep, I need to eat,
I have my children or my part time job.
And my comment is it doesn't have to be a lot at that stage.
(26:46):
Can it be half an hour? What's the best use of that half
hour? But actually have half an hour.
We brush our teeth, we we put onclothes, we sometimes cook, we
take time to eat. Hopefully we take time to eat
and we do take time to sleep. If we can think about this as as
one of those elements of our life that and I find
relationship building is just sort of a now woven into what I
(27:08):
do part of what I really enjoy. But it wasn't how I started off
thinking about this. It was that extra thing I had to
do. And if you tell me I have to do
something, I don't really necessarily wanna do it, but
when it becomes something that is part of and actually quite
beneficial, I think it's helpful.
And the only other thing that I'll say on that is it's helpful
when you're doing it in a way that is authentic and meaningful
to you. So, you know, I started off by
(27:31):
public speaking and teaching andthat was given what I, what was
important to me, that was that made it easier.
I like people and I like celebrating other people.
So attending events is OK. I know some people don't like
doing that. So find the best way possible
for you, but spend time actuallydedicating to doing it.
And you said, I think you used the word genuine part, right?
(27:51):
And it's so true. If you're not genuine, if you're
not coming across as genuine, itwill be harmful to you and
harmful to not harmful, just notenjoyable for the other person.
It's not about getting a job, Claudio, right?
You've probably heard this before.
It's really about learning aboutothers, sharing about yourself,
building relationships and doingit in a way that feels really, I
(28:12):
was gonna say that feels really natural, understanding that
sometimes we do have to put ourselves up in those
uncomfortable situations. Bring a buddy to an event.
If you don't like going by yourself, do some research
beforehand about who's going to be there.
So there's somebody that's somehow shares a connection that
you do, the school that you enter the area of practice.
Maybe they talk about having a dog, maybe they talk about
liking to travel and and then use that as sort of an entry to
(28:35):
speak to somebody. So don't treat it as a separate
task. Really think about it as
interwoven professional. I'd say part of being a human is
being part of the community and take the long road and think
about the marathon that you're on, not just the I gotta get
this done to cross it off my list.
That's amazing. Thank you.
So. Much for all of that and to
(28:56):
continue this reflection and to those that would like to get to
learn more about your services and what kind of contact they
could have with you, do you know, would you tell us a little
more about the services you provide as a career coach and
also how people could reach out to you?
Absolutely. So what?
I've done since going sort of out on my own is maintain two
(29:17):
different elements of my career coaching and consulting role.
On the one hand are my one-on-one coaching sessions
with individuals and I'll I'll come to that in a second.
But I also very much stay involved with organizations and
doing either keynotes or workshops or projects with them.
So whether it's the hidden gems project for the Law Society or
whether I do workshops for certain organizations, firms or
(29:40):
the civility project that I would encourage all Itls take a
look at from the Toronto LawyersAssociation.
Those are sort of things that people can access as resources
or attend as participants. The one-on-one coaching.
And again, I love both. I get energy from the group
material and the projects, and Ialso get energy from the
one-on-one engagement. When you sit down with one
(30:01):
person, drill down in terms of what's really important to them
and work through a plan, Two things, a plan to how to get to
that and a plan on first of all,what it is and then how to get
to that. And, and then working through
some of the challenges. And oftentimes what we're doing,
our mock mock interviews, mock coffee chats, we're doing mock
difficult conversations sometimes, like if you're in a
(30:23):
particular role and you've got achallenging supervisor, a
challenging colleague, a challenging client, let's talk
through the conversations that you might have with them and how
to better prepare yourself for it.
So everything from the resumes and interviews, even before we
get there, what's important to you, the values and working
through a process. I'm starting to also talk to
(30:44):
more senior lawyers who are intothe next transition, which is
whatever they want to call that,that retirement or that next
phase or the reduction. And that's sort of a new area
that I've started to engage withwith lawyers about as well.
I TL's and and locally trained lawyers as well.
How can you reach me? There's probably three ways.
One is through my website. I have a contact me there.
(31:07):
Gina alexanders.com, my YouTube channel has a number of things.
One a couple of years ago, I started a book club, career
conversations book club and there's some fabulous authors
with some fabulous books that they've written and we have, you
know, one hour conversations with them.
And if you're an IT L who is already in practice or if you're
not, but the Itls were in practice, each of those sessions
(31:28):
is worth CPD hours for the LSO. So you can free resource to be
able to mark off your CBD hours and learn something and have
some fun conversations. And I also have a particular on
that YouTube channel, which is Gina Alexander's career coach.
If you type that in, or if you search Gina Alexander's career
coach on YouTube, you'll be ableto find me.
(31:49):
There's a, there are a couple ofsessions for ITL's.
One is learning the legal landscape.
Another is about your resume andcover letter.
So there's some free resources there.
And as you very well know, I'm very regularly on LinkedIn.
I think it's an exceptional platform for us to build those
networks. One of the things that was so
gratifying over the last couple of days at this concert, part of
(32:10):
me at this conference was meeting people who I knew
virtually through LinkedIn. One person, a professor at
Ucalgary getting Christian who I, who I knew from from LinkedIn
for the past, I don't know, 10 years or so, we've never met in
person. And it was such a such a
wonderful opportunity to meet inperson.
(32:30):
I'm on LinkedIn and I do hope people reach out and connect.
Those are sort of the three primary ways right now in doing
so amazing and for. Those of you listening to this
episode, you just look at the show descriptions down below and
you'll see all of these links. I'm sure they are there.
And thank you all so much. Thank you enough for sharing
these wonderful ideas, advice and reflections with us today.
(32:54):
And thank you all for taking thetime to listen to today's
episode and we'll see you on thenext one.
Thank you, Claudia. All the best.
Bye, bye now.
Hello, everybody. Welcome to another episode of
Studying Law Around the World. Today I have the honor to
welcome Gina Alexandris to join us and to share a little bit
about her personal journey in law and to share with us also
about the work that she does these days helping
internationally trained lawyers and lawyers in general with
clarity in their careers. Thank you so much for joining us
(00:34):
today, Gina. It is such a pleasure to be
here, Claudio. Thank you for having.
Me thank you for joining us and choose start our meeting today,
our podcast. I'd love for you to introduce
yourself to our listeners. Would you be able to tell us
about yourself and your career? Absolutely.
I start off by saying two things.
One is that my childhood as a child of immigrant parents has
(00:56):
impacted me in ways that I don'tthink I appreciated when I was
growing up and as I was even a young adult.
And the second thing is that I have had opportunities that did
not exist when I was in law school and when I graduated from
law school. And so I always remind people
that first of all, to think about what is important to you
and second of all, to understandthat there are pathways ahead of
(01:19):
you that you may not realize. So with that in mind, want to
start off wanting to be a teacher, but then because of a
circumstance that happened to myparents with a legal matter, I
realized that they didn't have access to a lot of legal
representation and I switched from wanting to go into teaching
to wanting to go into law. As a result, went to law school,
graduated and worked in a small Toronto firm practicing civil
(01:40):
and family litigation and enjoyed a lot of elements of it
over a period of about four years.
But as I'll discuss later on, something else kept drawing me.
And remember what I said about going back to sort of things
that are of importance to you. Through a variety of ways, I
found my way to a new role that was opening up at Osgoode Hall
Law School to start the career development office.
(02:00):
And it seemed to be the right place at the right time in the
right opportunity and took that role, not having a clue what it
meant to be part of a career development office because at
that time we didn't have them inCanadian law schools.
Worked there and really found a great fit for me and worked
there for about 3 years before the opportunity to become
assistant Dean of the law schoolcame up.
(02:22):
And I remember Claudia and I usethis example for many thinking,
I'm not ready for this. This is, this is a leap role or
a stretch role. How can I possibly even think
about it at this stage? It's too soon.
But then a little voice in me said, yeah, but the next person
who does it might be there for along while.
You might lose this opportunity.Why not try?
And so with that and a lot of support and encouragement from
(02:43):
people that I knew and loved andtrusted, I put my hand in for
that and got the role. And, and I was the person who
kept the role for the next 9 years and it was a fabulous
opportunity to engage with the legal community, students,
faculty in ways that I had not even anticipated before.
And Fast forward a total of 12 years at Osgood, the University
(03:04):
of Toronto Faculty of Law had gotten funding from the province
to start something called the Internationally Trained Lawyers
program. We had a few ITL's who were
coming in through the NCAA applicant process at Osgood, but
there were very few other resources at the time for
internationally trained lawyers.And again, change is hard.
Going to the competing law school, quote UN quote, even
(03:26):
though we had a lot of collaboration was hard.
Osgood had been my alma mater, but I decided let me try it.
Let me do it went to the ITL theand started the internationally
trained lawyers program with a group of phenomenal colleagues
and really started seeing what the world of ITL's is like.
And as I go back to as a kid of immigrants, many experiences
(03:46):
that they were facing were stillvery similar, although there
were some that were very different.
Was really, really happy to be part of that world and to
understand to be able to offer things to Itls that had not been
available, including community before.
And what I saw from that point was that a number of different
programs started coming up afterthat at EU of T at Osgood across
(04:07):
Canada, programs that were formal programs, informal
programs. And it was that voice was
starting to get louder and I wasreally, really happy about that.
Somewhere along the lines in about 3 or 4 years that I was at
the ILP, the Ministry of the Attorney General came calling
and said we need somebody to do some of our strategy and
professional development for ourlawyers.
(04:27):
Would you come? And I thought, this is a group
public service that I had not worked with before and I knew
what private practice was like. I wanted to do that.
I made this shift and did it andwas really blessed to meet a
number of bright, talented giving individuals and
discovered what the OS, the Ontario Public Service has to
offer for lawyers that I hadn't appreciated before.
(04:48):
But then Fast forward the opportunity to start yet another
program at the third university in Toronto, Van Ryerson, now TM
U came up. They had gotten the approval to
launch the English version of the law practice program and
that that pull to start something new to support people
(05:08):
who otherwise we're finding challenges just was too, too
strong. Made the leap and spent about
close to 9 years with the university with the law practice
program and also starting and helping to develop the their new
law school, which was a phenomenal experience.
So again, if you had asked me atgraduation, what would I be
doing? I would have told you civil and
family litigation forever and ever never even because each of
(05:31):
those worlds that I mentioned were brand new did not even
exist. And and then I had while at UFT,
I had started my coach training and it was time about 2 1/2
years ago for me to pursue that full time and made the difficult
but easy decision to again switch and move into the
entrepreneurial role which I'm in now, which is supporting
(05:53):
lawyers and law students and other professionals as they
navigate leadership transitions,changes generally and watch
their successes. So that's in a nutshell.
That's amazing. I feel like not not a lot of
professionals have had the exposure you had to this whole
world of internationally trainedlawyers, programming development
and the legal field itself. So it's just fantastic to hear
(06:16):
about your story. And, and I feel like there is a
common thread connecting all of these career choices.
I think I mentioned it before ina few podcasts and there's this
graduation speech by Steve Jobs where he talks about connecting
the dots when you look backward and all of that.
And I, I'd love to know, you know, after holding such like a
wide range of roles across leadership, law, education, what
(06:40):
would you say that connects these points in your career over
the years? It's interesting because believe
it or not, this was when I was thinking about leaving law or
not figure not sure what I wanted to do while I was in
practice. Something felt off but I wasn't
quite sure I could identify whatit was and I went to a then
career psychologist. We didn't have coaches
necessarily that time and one ofthe first her sizes she asked me
(07:02):
to do was do a quote UN quote life map to see sort of what
were the highs and the lows and you sort of that I experienced
up until that point and to help connect the dots.
So that exercise is a phenomenalexercise for all of us to do a
different stages. The first one certainly came up
at that time and has been consistent and that's the idea
of personal and professional development growth.
(07:23):
My father was an individual who had a grade 3 education and yet
really craved and really encouraged learning.
And I think I've taken that on in ways that I had not not
necessarily appreciated, but my own and others.
Personal and professional development is something that is
a critical theme and a critical dot throughout all of the roles
(07:45):
that I've had and personally. But what I've discovered, and
this is this I think I discovered during my coach
training, the second theme or the second connecting the dot is
celebration and celebrating people's journeys.
Remind people of the celebrations as you're doing
with a lot of people and for people who aren't even in the
profession yet. Being able to hold the mirror
(08:05):
and spotlight and celebrate others has been what I enjoy
doing. My favorite part of my role at
at Osgood and at the ITLP and the LP were the convocations at
Osgood and the calls to the bar ceremony.
I had the benefit and the privilege of being on stage for
the calls to the bar ceremony. Those moments, those hours,
(08:27):
those celebrations sort of just highlight for me being able to
say you've got this, you've got this milestone, there's more to
go, but you'll be celebrated then as well.
And even being there in my coaching practice for the
celebration Solar Large that clients find themselves a new
job, a new understanding, a new philosophy, a change that they
were looking forward to. I think it's important for each
(08:49):
of us to be able to do it individually, but then to have
somebody champion us and that way I think is also important
and I enjoy that role. So the professional and personal
development and the celebration or championing of of peoples
successes I think are the 2 common links in everything that
I have done today. How has your idea of career
success changed overtime? I think think Claudio, that one
(09:12):
of the biggest ways it's changedfor me is taking it more from an
in, from an outward reflection. What do other people want me to
do? What do other people think I'm
good at? What do other people define the
success? How do other people view success
to more of an inward reflection and how do I define success?
What do I want? What does it look like to me?
And understanding and appreciating success looks so
(09:35):
different for every for each andevery person.
And to appreciate and to celebrate our own definition of
success. I can tell you that the pull
towards other people's goals andother people's definitions is so
very strong, especially in a profession like law.
It starts almost from the first day of law school.
See, it also starts from before we even get to law school.
(09:56):
I think good intentions on, on our schools, I was part of this
whole process where we want to see people see themselves in
leadership roles, But there's many ways of defining
leadership. There's many ways of defining
successes. And I think when you're able to
sift through the noise and when you're able to actually think
through what it is that you really want, what's important to
you, you can define success in the way that you want to.
(10:20):
And so I think that that shift for me more and it came and I'll
tell you this, I hadn't really made the connection until just
now when I was transitioning from the practice of law to my
new job at Osgood, which again, nobody knew what a career
development was or a career development, Sir.
I had no clue how to explain it to people.
Yet there was something there that was telling me, it's in
(10:40):
law, it's in legal education, it's helping people.
And it felt right at the time. But I remember my biggest you've
seen, and I'm sure others who might be watching know how close
I was to my parents and how remarkably impactful they were.
I remember being really nervous and ambivalent of telling my
father that I was not going to be a lawyer anymore.
That identity that people have. It's easy to define what a
(11:02):
lawyer is. And I still remember the time
when I was telling him and, and nervous that he'd be
disappointed, upset, fill in whatever word that that might be
applicable for you, because I had his definition.
You know, the successful lawyer,the successful advocate, the,
the, you know, the daughter who went on to, to go to law school
(11:24):
that when nobody else had my dadwas very practical man.
And I remember telling him very nervous and he, his response, he
looked at me and he said, are you going to be happy?
And I said, he had daddy. Actually, I think I will.
And he said, good, I'm very glad.
Then do what you do really well and be happy with it and I'll be
very happy for you. And all of a sudden, I thought
this man's definition of successis not what I had thought it
(11:44):
was. It was a very different success
definition. And it allowed me then to free
myself from outside definitions and start really thinking about
what my own definition. Was that's fantastic.
It's always inspiring to hear that and to have that family
support. I, you know, at times people
have asked how, how do you keep up with doing the LM and, and
(12:05):
you know, keeping this side projects, doing a podcast, part
time work and this and that. And honestly, without that
family help it, it wouldn't be the case for me.
So I feel very, very privileged to, to have that support.
And it's amazing to hear how you've got your experience that
you and thinking about your trajectory and the things that
you shared so far. You've worked closely with a lot
(12:27):
of internationally trained lawyers for many years.
And I was wondering what are some of the most common
challenges that you would see they facing when entering the
the legal market? And also, if I may ask, adding
to that question, how have you seen it changing overtime from
when you started to what you seewith your clients now?
Really great question. And I as you know, just before
(12:50):
we have taped this, I have sort of been immersed in ITL's, the
ITL conference in Calgary next year they're planning on having
it here in Toronto. So just a word of encouragement
to Itls to think about joining next year.
That thought really came up for me that your second thought,
especially in terms of what's changed and what's still the
same, because there's a lot that's still the same, but there
(13:11):
have been changes. And in terms of access to
information, I'll say the following.
There used to be few resources and few points of information,
and now there is so much and, and on the one hand, I am so
glad that there are more resources available for Itls.
What I'm hearing though, is thatpeople are so overwhelmed with
(13:32):
data and information. Sometimes they just don't know
how to start and how to access it.
So while it's there, it's the challenge of accessing it.
So the growth of data and information is really wonderful.
Let's talk about the elephant inthe room.
There's still stigma about Itls,although it's lessened with more
and more Itls speaking and supporting one another with more
(13:53):
champions of ITL's being vocal, the stigma has lessened, but
it's still there. And, and I think being able to
A, understand that it's there and B, work towards and find
your supports to be able to overcome that I think is really,
really critical. You mentioned the networks and
community support or family support.
(14:13):
So while you and I may have talked about families, one of
the challenges for a lot of Itlsis that they don't have.
And I don't know how many peopleI've spoken to who have said
I've got to do everything on my own because I don't have family
around. I don't have, many times I don't
have even friends. They've come completely not
knowing anybody around. And that lack of personal and
(14:33):
let alone professional networks or relationships or communities
is really challenging. And what I found is these
groups. So the change is that these
groups, whether it's the ITL network, whether it's an LLM,
these groups allow people to have the community that I felt
was so important when we startedthe ITLP at the University of
Toronto. It's that community of other
(14:54):
people who are in the same boat and get you understand that
you're juggling immigration challenges with figuring out
your next job, with getting thatthat training that you need with
looking for daycare for your child.
We had new babies born in each of the programs and then
individuals who were trying to juggle new parenthood with all
(15:15):
of that. It's the figuring out how to
cope with illness with people back home who you're so far from
and yet so dearly love. So community building here I
think is really a challenge, butalso something that I've seen
change. And one thing that I will say
continues to be a challenge and always has been is access to
(15:35):
that very first job. I think the other elements, the
access to information, the stigma, the community, all help
with access to that first legal job.
But that continues to be throughout the conference,
throughout people. When I have conversations with
people, that tends to be one of the first challenges.
I see fantastic. And and it seems like for that,
(15:56):
for that first opportunity, that's the one that hasn't
changed a whole lot then throughthe years.
Very interesting. So you've talked about, you
know, building careers with purpose and all of that and
mentioned now this is struggles.So what are some ways that
internationally trained lawyers can stay focused on their
purpose when they're navigating so many transitions?
(16:16):
And I say that thinking about where there's so much to
consider here, but at times we, we and, and I catch myself
talking about this with colleagues as well, where at
this point, many people have a bit more clarity in their
careers. They've gone through know the
undergrad, many of us did have some legal experience before
starting this career here in Canada.
(16:36):
And then it seems like maybe an area of law is really open to
receiving people and that you can more easily find an
articling position in that area of law.
But you know, you, you really don't, you know, match that
area. And then what do you do?
Do you just, you know, take it so that you can get license or,
you know, so, so there's so manyreflections to make about that.
(16:59):
And I'd love to pick your brain a little bit and hear your
thoughts on that. Claudia, you've you've hit on
sort of a constant conversation that I have with ITL's the
balancing act, right? That has to take place, but also
when you use the word, and I'm so glad that you did the
reflection and the self reflection that we need to be
doing regularly. And, and you know, sometimes
people will say to me, I have notime to self reflect or I have
(17:21):
no time to, or energy to have the privilege of thinking
through what I want. I just need to get things done.
I need to get a job. I need to put food on the table.
And, and I always ask them just to pause because it's so really
important. I realize that there's a
privilege in being able to self reflect, but I think there's a
danger if you don't take that time and energy and space to
(17:41):
allow yourself to think about what's really important to you.
And it could be that what's really important to you at this
time maybe a little bit different than what was
important to you five years ago or two years ago, and what might
be important to you six or sevenyears down the road, for that
matter. So thinking about what's
important to you at this very time is critical.
And typically some of those values, some of those priorities
(18:03):
will be the same regardless of circumstances around us.
So if you think, for example, that time spent with family is
important, or if you think that being a subject expert in a
particular, just being a subjectexpert is important.
Or if you have a particular interest in and enthusiasm for a
particular area of law, intellectual property or family
(18:25):
law. Or if you think that right now
priority is money and you need financial stability because
that's been something that you are craving and have not been
able to establish. Each of those is a legitimate
goal to have. Each of those is illegitimate
value to have. Again, it goes back to the
inward versus the outward. Don't second guess yourself on
what your classmate is doing or what Claudio is saying he's
(18:47):
doing or what Gina is saying she's doing.
Thinking about what's important to you at any given time is
really, really important. And you know, many people say,
well, you know, our parents or whoever other immigrants were
thinking about didn't have the luxury of thinking about these
things. And I say, I bet you they did.
They just didn't formalize it orjust didn't think about doing
it. But I'm sure that when they were
looking for a first job, they may have been thinking right now
(19:10):
I don't have the luxury of financial stability.
I need that or right now I do. My circumstances are such.
Let me think about what I can look at.
So self reflection, I think on your values is important.
What matters to you most in any particular given time, speak to
someone about it, a good friend,a trusted colleague, a coach, an
instructor. People appear that you're
meeting, but don't necessarily just go with what they say.
(19:32):
Speak about it to get information, to hear your own
thoughts out loud. Because when we speak about
things in our head, Claudio, it's a jumble.
Sometimes we have to speak it through and speak it out.
And I always say to other things, maybe give yourself a
visual reminder. If family is a priority, put a
screenshot of family on your phone.
If excitement or travel or journey is is important or
(19:56):
priority, have a picture on youron your screen somewhere to
remind you of what that is if calm and stability.
Or financial success is what is motivating you right now.
Again, what's that visual reminder?
I also, and I don't know if you've ever done this.
I can't remember in any of your posts.
I've seen this and if, if, if you have, my apologies.
I sometimes get clients dues andI used to get our students to do
(20:16):
this. Do a letter to your future self
reminding you in the future whatis important to you right now.
And whether with wonder of technology, you can post market
for six months down the road fora year down the road for three
months down there for three years down the road.
You can use the you know, e-mailsend function to you.
(20:36):
Hopefully you won't change emails or you'll look at the
e-mail. You know, that will be a letter
to yourself and a reminder of what's important to yourself.
I think being able to talk through those issues on a
regular basis with somebody thatyou trust and believe in, but
also just to remind yourself of what's important today helps
when you're making decisions. And one of the exercises that I
(20:59):
do with my coaching clients is we go through this values
exercise where we talk through it.
And then as during our coaching engagement, as opportunities
come up, I always bring that back to people and say, remember
when we had this value exercise?How does this particular job
opportunity align with what's important?
And then we have to make decisions.
We're adults. And so sometimes if it aligns
(21:20):
with eight out of ten of our values, great.
Sometimes we have to make decisions that even if right now
this opportunity might not alignwith the majority of our values,
we need to take it for other reasons.
We're making an informed decision.
And I think that's really critical.
I'll give you a brief example. And again, it hadn't really,
they hadn't connected it until we had this conversation when I
(21:41):
was assistant Dean and I'd, I'd oftentimes get first year
students or even sometimes second year students come in to
me, especially first year students in the first few months
who would be questioning their choice of coming to law school.
Why did I decide to do it? I can't do it.
I'm, I'm stuck. I'm not sure it's what I really
want. And we had paper files in the
early days. I would go back and pull out
(22:03):
their admission letter or their application, their personal
statement and their application.And without them knowing what I
was doing, I would actually readout a portion of their personal
statement. And so they were hearing out
loud what they wrote anywhere from one to two or three years
earlier about why they wanted togo to law school.
And I don't know how many times I'd get stunned looks with who
(22:25):
was that person. Well, yeah, I forgot that that's
what I want to do. And then a conversation would
start. I still really wanna do that or,
you know, that was what I wantedthem.
But I think I've changed, and this is what I want to do.
But it sort of reminded people of what was in their head at
some point, and then they could think through why this was
important at this point. That's incredible.
What a privilege for those that got the chance to, to have that
(22:47):
done for them. That's so amazing.
Going forward. Here is our conversation and
wow, so many good reflections you're bringing.
Thank you so much. What kind of advice would you
give then to internationally trained lawyers who are trying
to to balance these ideas of meeting the licensing
requirements in trying to build a community in a network here in
Canada that will, you know, givethat that support that you just
(23:10):
mentioned that sometimes we havewith family, we have with
friends, and then, you know, juggling all of these things at
the same time. And then also, I guess that
network may also, you know, openjob opportunities.
So there's so much involved in the whole, you know, system of
different stakeholders involved.There is so much.
And this past weekend, the person who was being the MC for
(23:32):
the conference was an Ontario IIT L who actually knew from the
law practice program. But he was using a phrase when
people would, when he would be thanking speakers or panelists
or keynotes or whatnot. And he was using a phrase that I
hadn't really heard before. And as given what I said
earlier, it really resonated with me.
But instead of saying, you know,let's give them a round of
(23:54):
applause, which is sort of the typical thing, or let's, you
know, let's thank our guests or our speakers or panelists, He
would say, let's, let's celebrate them.
Let's join me in celebrating them.
And I want to do the same for you because I think what you are
asking and what you are doing for the ITL community really is
an incredible opportunity. And, and I want to celebrate you
(24:14):
and I want to celebrate all Itlswho may be listening.
And I want to celebrate all of the profession who is giving,
who are giving Itls that chance.And so that in terms of the
community building that you're asking me about, two things come
up in particular. One is to remember that this
process, as much as you want to get through it, as much as you
want to run through it and finish because you've got to
(24:36):
tick off everything on your checklist, right?
We all have this mental checklist done, done, done, done
or still in progress. Just remember, it's a marathon.
It's a marathon, not a Sprint. It is a long journey and it can
take you longer than you had anticipated, and that's OK.
It's not a Sprint. Don't try and rush through it.
You're going to miss so much if you try and rush through it.
And the other part that I will say, which sort of takes that
(24:58):
into account is include relationship building as part of
that process. When you think about, OK, first
the accreditation process, then the NCA process, I mean, then
the licensing process and as part of the licensing process,
exams or articling, then that first job after that.
And then of course, we compartmentalize all the other
things that we have to do in ourlife.
Personally perhaps. And my comment on that is think
(25:21):
about it all as one big journey,one big part of your journey.
And if we think about networkingor community building or
relationship building as a separate, it's going to
overwhelm us. Even with current lawyers who
are thinking about business development, I have to get
across to them and their mindsethas to change that.
In fact, business development isjust a part of the job.
(25:42):
When they think about the practice of law and I have to
build a portfolio or I have to build a client list, when they
think about it as separate, they're not going to give it the
attention they need. When we see it as all part of
the same process, there's more likelihood that we're going to
do it. So dedicate.
I often say, use it as one of your files.
If you're in the process and you're going through exams or
(26:04):
the LLM, think about the relationship building as one of
your courses. It's one of not a separate
thing. It's a part of and make the
time. Just as you're scheduling your
research or your class time, schedule it.
Put it in your calendar where you devote and you can determine
what's important and what's so, how much time you can do for it.
(26:24):
Doing some research about peopleyou wanna meet, sending out
those emails, having the coffee chats, following up with them
afterwards, attending events. Actually allot yourself a time.
And I know people are gonna say,Gina, I've got 24 hours in a
day. I need to sleep, I need to eat,
I have my children or my part time job.
And my comment is it doesn't have to be a lot at that stage.
(26:46):
Can it be half an hour? What's the best use of that half
hour? But actually have half an hour.
We brush our teeth, we we put onclothes, we sometimes cook, we
take time to eat. Hopefully we take time to eat
and we do take time to sleep. If we can think about this as as
one of those elements of our life that and I find
relationship building is just sort of a now woven into what I
(27:08):
do part of what I really enjoy. But it wasn't how I started off
thinking about this. It was that extra thing I had to
do. And if you tell me I have to do
something, I don't really necessarily wanna do it, but
when it becomes something that is part of and actually quite
beneficial, I think it's helpful.
And the only other thing that I'll say on that is it's helpful
when you're doing it in a way that is authentic and meaningful
to you. So, you know, I started off by
(27:31):
public speaking and teaching andthat was given what I, what was
important to me, that was that made it easier.
I like people and I like celebrating other people.
So attending events is OK. I know some people don't like
doing that. So find the best way possible
for you, but spend time actuallydedicating to doing it.
And you said, I think you used the word genuine part, right?
(27:51):
And it's so true. If you're not genuine, if you're
not coming across as genuine, itwill be harmful to you and
harmful to not harmful, just notenjoyable for the other person.
It's not about getting a job, Claudio, right?
You've probably heard this before.
It's really about learning aboutothers, sharing about yourself,
building relationships and doingit in a way that feels really, I
(28:12):
was gonna say that feels really natural, understanding that
sometimes we do have to put ourselves up in those
uncomfortable situations. Bring a buddy to an event.
If you don't like going by yourself, do some research
beforehand about who's going to be there.
So there's somebody that's somehow shares a connection that
you do, the school that you enter the area of practice.
Maybe they talk about having a dog, maybe they talk about
liking to travel and and then use that as sort of an entry to
(28:35):
speak to somebody. So don't treat it as a separate
task. Really think about it as
interwoven professional. I'd say part of being a human is
being part of the community and take the long road and think
about the marathon that you're on, not just the I gotta get
this done to cross it off my list.
That's amazing. Thank you.
So. Much for all of that and to
(28:56):
continue this reflection and to those that would like to get to
learn more about your services and what kind of contact they
could have with you, do you know, would you tell us a little
more about the services you provide as a career coach and
also how people could reach out to you?
Absolutely. So what?
I've done since going sort of out on my own is maintain two
(29:17):
different elements of my career coaching and consulting role.
On the one hand are my one-on-one coaching sessions
with individuals and I'll I'll come to that in a second.
But I also very much stay involved with organizations and
doing either keynotes or workshops or projects with them.
So whether it's the hidden gems project for the Law Society or
whether I do workshops for certain organizations, firms or
(29:40):
the civility project that I would encourage all Itls take a
look at from the Toronto LawyersAssociation.
Those are sort of things that people can access as resources
or attend as participants. The one-on-one coaching.
And again, I love both. I get energy from the group
material and the projects, and Ialso get energy from the
one-on-one engagement. When you sit down with one
(30:01):
person, drill down in terms of what's really important to them
and work through a plan, Two things, a plan to how to get to
that and a plan on first of all,what it is and then how to get
to that. And, and then working through
some of the challenges. And oftentimes what we're doing,
our mock mock interviews, mock coffee chats, we're doing mock
difficult conversations sometimes, like if you're in a
(30:23):
particular role and you've got achallenging supervisor, a
challenging colleague, a challenging client, let's talk
through the conversations that you might have with them and how
to better prepare yourself for it.
So everything from the resumes and interviews, even before we
get there, what's important to you, the values and working
through a process. I'm starting to also talk to
(30:44):
more senior lawyers who are intothe next transition, which is
whatever they want to call that,that retirement or that next
phase or the reduction. And that's sort of a new area
that I've started to engage withwith lawyers about as well.
I TL's and and locally trained lawyers as well.
How can you reach me? There's probably three ways.
One is through my website. I have a contact me there.
(31:07):
Gina alexanders.com, my YouTube channel has a number of things.
One a couple of years ago, I started a book club, career
conversations book club and there's some fabulous authors
with some fabulous books that they've written and we have, you
know, one hour conversations with them.
And if you're an IT L who is already in practice or if you're
not, but the Itls were in practice, each of those sessions
(31:28):
is worth CPD hours for the LSO. So you can free resource to be
able to mark off your CBD hours and learn something and have
some fun conversations. And I also have a particular on
that YouTube channel, which is Gina Alexander's career coach.
If you type that in, or if you search Gina Alexander's career
coach on YouTube, you'll be ableto find me.
(31:49):
There's a, there are a couple ofsessions for ITL's.
One is learning the legal landscape.
Another is about your resume andcover letter.
So there's some free resources there.
And as you very well know, I'm very regularly on LinkedIn.
I think it's an exceptional platform for us to build those
networks. One of the things that was so
gratifying over the last couple of days at this concert, part of
(32:10):
me at this conference was meeting people who I knew
virtually through LinkedIn. One person, a professor at
Ucalgary getting Christian who I, who I knew from from LinkedIn
for the past, I don't know, 10 years or so, we've never met in
person. And it was such a such a
wonderful opportunity to meet inperson.
(32:30):
I'm on LinkedIn and I do hope people reach out and connect.
Those are sort of the three primary ways right now in doing
so amazing and for. Those of you listening to this
episode, you just look at the show descriptions down below and
you'll see all of these links. I'm sure they are there.
And thank you all so much. Thank you enough for sharing
these wonderful ideas, advice and reflections with us today.
(32:54):
And thank you all for taking thetime to listen to today's
episode and we'll see you on thenext one.
Thank you, Claudia. All the best.
Bye, bye now.
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