April 26, 2025 • 15 mins
Recognized leader in legal tech, Colin S. Levy is dedicated to revolutionizing the legal industry by bridging the gap between technology and law. As an author, educator, and speaker, Colin demystifies the complexities of legal innovation. He’s the author of The Legal Tech Ecosystem, co-author of CLM for Dummies, and editor of the Handbook of Legal Tech.
With a passion for empowering the legal tech community, Colin’s insights appear in Today’s General Counsel, and he serves as a judge for the American Legal Technology Awards. As General Counsel for Malbek, he stays at the forefront of Contract Lifecycle Management, advising startups and investing in emerging tech.
Colin’s mission is clear: to inspire and lead the legal world into a tech-driven future.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:12):
Hello, everybody. Welcome to another episode of
Studying Law around the World. Today I'll have the opportunity
to welcome Calling Levy. Calling is a general counsel and
educator and author and advisor and so many other important
roles. He's also an advocate for mental
health and lots of good things out there on the Internet.
(00:33):
So please join me in welcoming. Thank you so much for joining us
today. Thanks so much for having me.
Fantastic. Well, I know that you know, way
you're, you don't need much of an introduction.
I feel like a lot of people who might be listening to the
podcast already know you follow you on social media and all of
that. But I'd love to hear a little
bit about, you know, your path and especially because I feel
(00:56):
like you're legal journey has taken many unique turns and
you've built such a nice practice for yourself.
So I'd love to hear a little more about, you know, that this
direction that your career has taken and and how you got where
you're at. If someone had asked me, you
know, do you envision yourself doing what you do now?
(01:16):
When I started as a lawyer, as with a lot of folks who would be
asked this question, I would sayyeah, no, you're you're crazy.
There's absolutely no way I be 4:00 AM doing what I am doing.
But that just speaks to, I thinkthis unpredictable journey that
I've been on. And yet at the same time,
looking back, the journey kind of makes sense to me.
So one in the talk back a littlebit, when I graduated from
(01:38):
college, I worked for a year fora big law firm in New York as a
paralegal, do an ediscovery work.
And because I was interested in technology, I was interested in
going to law. So I wanted to get a little bit
of experience in before I pursued law school.
So this, you know, opportunity struck me as sort of the perfect
way to to achieve that goal. And it did.
It gave me exposure to technology.
(01:59):
I was able to understand how discovery works.
Some of the tools are used in that in that space.
But at the same time, I also sawthe disconnect between the
lawyers that I was performing this worked for at their request
and the technology I was using. The lawyers didn't seem all that
interested in the technology at all.
They seemed interested in just getting the data they needed to
get to achieve what they want toachieve.
(02:20):
Come Fast forward a little bit to law school.
Law school for me was a bit of adisappointment in that there was
very little discussion of technology and law school.
A lot of it was focused just on theory and kind of the history
of how the law came to be, as many law schools remain focused
on that. And yet I just became more and
more convinced that either I wascrazy or that there really was a
(02:43):
gap between the practice of law and the reality on the ground in
terms of how technology was impacting other industries like
healthcare, insurance, and otherspaces.
So we're going graduated from law school and started working
as a lawyer. I kind of became more and more
interested in discovering whether indeed there were other
folks that were trying to kind of bridge the gap between the
(03:05):
legal world and the tech world. And little behold, there were
folks that were doing that. And so I was, I guess at the
time, bold enough to reach out to some of these folks and
engage with them to learn more about the space, what they were
trying to do to bridge that gap.And those conversations helped
educate me, orientate me to the space.
And I reached the point where I was wanting to share some of my
(03:26):
lessons from those conversationswith others.
And that really started sort of me off on this journey into
legal tech and also was providing me with a foundation
to build off of. That's fantastic.
Thank you sharing that. It's, it's been so interesting
to see how different lawyers have, you know, implemented
different, you know, technology in all their different
(03:49):
principles into their career. Recently I spoke with a lawyer
who went into privacy and they were just telling me a little
bit about it might not be the case anymore, but just about,
you know, a year, 2 ago, you could fast track your career so
much using this specific niche because there aren't any lawyers
who have been 10 years into thistopic.
But to continue our conversationhere, I'd love to hear a little
(04:11):
more about, you know, you've held these many hats I mentioned
before, GC educator, author, advisor.
How do you balance all of these roles while staying grounded in
your core purpose? Yeah.
You know, I'm, I'm just the typethat like just stay busy and
being engaged in a variety of different activities.
So I think that I stay grounded through kind of just couple
(04:32):
things. One, we're on minding myself
that it's important to take a step back and to be grateful for
what I've achieved and what I'm doing to, to really just at
times kind of refocus myself on why became a lawyer in the 1st
place, which was to help people and to also challenge myself
(04:53):
intellectually. And then lastly, I think that
being engaged in all these different activities allows me
to remain connected to the community that empowers me and I
find so inspiring. So that is in part what
motivates me to remain active indoing what I do because I'm so
inspired by others I encounter in the community and in seeking
to help. No, that's beautiful.
(05:13):
I love that. And continuing on that sense
that you're online presence is pretty, it's pretty interesting.
It's incredibly intentional, inspiring.
You've raised awareness to so many important topics.
So if I may ask you, what role has LinkedIn playing played in
shaping your voice and building meaningful, meaningful
connections within the legal community and more specifically
(05:35):
in legal tech? Yeah.
So it's interesting that LinkedIn has been, I think, a
really beneficial platform for me because I kind of intuitively
understood the value of the platform, which was to share
informative content and to buildconnections with others.
And LinkedIn really facilitates that through a variety of ways.
(05:56):
And one of those ways was how I first sort of got my start on
the platform, which is to comment on other people's posts
and kind of provide my own thoughts and try to engage with
them. And much to my surprise and some
part, those folks did engage with me in response to the
comments that I made, which thenprompted me to reach out to them
(06:16):
and connect with them and learn from them.
So I'd say that LinkedIn really has been a key tool in my
toolbox in terms of building my legal tech community, in terms
of building my own expertise in this space, and then helping to
support and inform others. And it remains a very powerful
tool, one that I very much love to use.
(06:37):
And I think it's important for me and also likely for others as
well to not be distracted by kind of the metrics and terms of
numbers or numbers of followers or connections or number of
views on a post are really just be focused on providing
informative and inspiring content for others.
And so long as you do that consistently, I think that
(06:59):
you'll gain benefit from using the platform.
Indeed, that's been the case forme.
I love the idea of using it withauthenticity as well.
I just find it awesome. The idea that you can use it
authentically and you're writingspeaks to transformation, but
also practicality. So if I may ask you a little bit
about first in the legal space, how do you continue to encourage
(07:20):
legal professionals to embrace more innovation, to embrace more
technology into their day-to-daypractice?
And then seeing that in the fast-paced world we're at, how
do you put all these things together?
How can you continually do this work?
Yeah. So, you know, for me, what I
really try to do is make technology as practical and as
(07:41):
real per se as I can for others.And the way that I primarily do
that is through date, through, you know, showing examples, case
studies, sharing data and statistics, really just trying
to kind of ground it in some reality.
Because too often, I think especially in the tech world,
this is not just isolated to legal tech.
(08:02):
It's really, I think, a broad based issue with technology
where there is so much noise andso much hype around technology,
especially these days around AI.And I see myself and other, and
I'm attracted to others who try to cut through all the noise and
the hype and try to provide sortof a real sense of what's
possible, what's not possible, what could be possible.
(08:23):
And it's a constant challenge, but it's one that I happily take
on because I do think it's important for people to
understand a couple of things, that technology is here to stay
and that it shouldn't be something that's intimidating or
overwhelming, but really should be something that helps them be
them being others, being more productive with their time and
what they're doing. That's incredible and it's
(08:46):
showing that I've I've seen where you where you said that
standing still is not an option in this market.
So how does that you know and helps you to stay curious to
help others and also to avoid the complacency in in the
workplace? Yeah, so I am just one who is
never happy to just not be learning or what have you.
(09:10):
So for me, I just see myself as a constant learner because I see
learning as a lifelong process. It doesn't have a defined
endpoint, doesn't really have anendpoint at all.
So that means that I constantly have to learn and have to adapt.
And I think that's important forall of us to do because none of
us knows everything or is good at everything.
(09:31):
So we all have to be acknowledged sort of wrong
shortcomings and our strengths as well as our weaknesses.
And so I often kind of been reminded of the fact that the
more I know, the more reminded of how much there is to learn.
And so that inspires me to keep on learning and keep on
experimenting. I think as we've seen with
technology being very changeable, very dynamic, that
(09:54):
learning really is something that needs to be constantly
focused on and done because otherwise you're going to lose
sight of what's going on in front of.
You yeah, absolutely. And, and talking about that same
topic about the workplace and and where you're at, I'd love to
hear a little bit about happiness at work.
A few weeks ago, I feel like we both saw one of chat about post
(10:15):
chat about and I think his post was very interesting.
He talked about intentionality and and all of that.
And I feel we both connected in that in in commenting to that.
So I'd love to hear from you. What does a a fulfilling career
look like to you and how have you built that into your
professional life? Yeah.
So for me, a fulfilling career means one that is focused on
(10:37):
helping others and that is provided me with a sense of
contentment and happiness. And because of my passion for
legal tech, my role as general counsel Malbec and my role as
sort of legal tech educator gives me a strong sense of
fulfillment and contentment because I'm helping others, I'm
helping myself. And so it's just sort of a
really rewarding place to be. And I feel very lucky and
(10:59):
grateful to be in this position because it certainly took a lot
of work and time to get there. But now that I'm here, I'm
really, really, just, as I said before, grateful to be doing
what I'm doing at this point. Amazing.
And in that sense, you know, a lot of people are starting up
their careers and I feel like the legal field has so many
different things that you can explore and maybe you're not,
(11:20):
you know, feeling that you're super happy at your first job.
So I'd love to hear, you know, what kind of advice would you
give to someone trying to find know that in that intersection,
that sweet spot about where they're what they're good at,
what they care about, where theycan make a difference and
putting that all together. Yeah.
So I think it starts from kind of asking yourself the question
(11:41):
of why, you know, why are you pulled in a certain direction?
Why do you want to do something a certain way?
What is the motivation? What what is pulling you or
pushing you in that direction? And use that then to guide you
as you would kind of explore opportunities.
Because I think the more you know yourself, the more you
listen to yourself and what drives you, the more likely
(12:03):
you're going to feel fulfillmentand whatever it is you're doing
and, or find something that is most aligned with who you are
and what you want to be doing. And that sometimes takes some
work, it takes some experimentation and sometimes
even takes failing. But that's part of the process,
frankly. So you kind of have to kind of
sit with that sort of sense of, you know, you may be
uncomfortable at times, you may fail at times, but that's just,
(12:24):
we all fail. We all feel unhappy at times,
such as part of the journey of life.
So we have to kind of be comfortable being uncomfortable,
as I like to say. I love that.
And during the same topic calling, if I may ask you
thinking about, you know, again,those people who are starting up
their careers and all of that. In your personal opinion, would
you feel that maybe you might need to start where you don't
(12:45):
necessarily love the work yet inorder to build that future
practice that then you come to love and appreciate and be able
to, you know, have a little bit more of a decision making power
and and help on, you know, shaping that workplace.
Do you feel like that has some truth to it?
Had some kind of have you seen that happening in other people's
(13:05):
lives or has that, does that resonate in any way with your
career experience? Yeah, well, I can speak from a
couple of different angles. One from personal experience
where, yeah, I've, I've had a couple of roles where I wasn't
happy a lot of the time, but I was getting these skills and
experience I knew I needed to get to be doing what I want to
(13:26):
be doing eventually. So I had to kind of tolerate it
for as long as they could or as long as they felt like I I was
able to and needed to. So I do think that especially
for younger lawyers or other legal professionals,
unfortunately, the reality really is that sometimes you
have to take a job you don't necessarily love because of the
experience and the opportunitiesmay afford you.
(13:47):
And ideally, that would be at a company where you, you know, at
least can focus on doing your job and not have to worry about
sort of internal politics or other personalities.
But the fact of the matter is sometimes you have to because we
all have different personalitiesand we're all not going to be,
you know, best friends with everyone.
So I think that's important skill as well as being able to
(14:07):
kind of just understand how to get along with people that you
don't necessarily want to get along with or, you know, frankly
don't even want anything to do with it depending on the
situation. So, yeah, I do think that
sometimes, you know, it's build a foundation requires doing
things you don't necessarily want to love to do.
Because the other part of it is regardless of what job you have,
at any stage of your career, there's a high likelihood of you
(14:29):
having to do at least one thing you're not really going to want
to have to do. So the more you can get used to
and be OK with that situation, the better off you'll be over
the long term. Fantastic.
Well, I really appreciate your time.
I really appreciate your answershere in the podcast today, and
thank you so much for joining us.
Thanks so much for having me, I really enjoy this conversation.
(14:50):
It's always great to talk with you and thank you all for tuning
into this episode and we'll see you on the next one.
Hello, everybody. Welcome to another episode of
Studying Law around the World. Today I'll have the opportunity
to welcome Calling Levy. Calling is a general counsel and
educator and author and advisor and so many other important
roles. He's also an advocate for mental
health and lots of good things out there on the Internet.
(00:33):
So please join me in welcoming. Thank you so much for joining us
today. Thanks so much for having me.
Fantastic. Well, I know that you know, way
you're, you don't need much of an introduction.
I feel like a lot of people who might be listening to the
podcast already know you follow you on social media and all of
that. But I'd love to hear a little
bit about, you know, your path and especially because I feel
(00:56):
like you're legal journey has taken many unique turns and
you've built such a nice practice for yourself.
So I'd love to hear a little more about, you know, that this
direction that your career has taken and and how you got where
you're at. If someone had asked me, you
know, do you envision yourself doing what you do now?
(01:16):
When I started as a lawyer, as with a lot of folks who would be
asked this question, I would sayyeah, no, you're you're crazy.
There's absolutely no way I be 4:00 AM doing what I am doing.
But that just speaks to, I thinkthis unpredictable journey that
I've been on. And yet at the same time,
looking back, the journey kind of makes sense to me.
So one in the talk back a littlebit, when I graduated from
(01:38):
college, I worked for a year fora big law firm in New York as a
paralegal, do an ediscovery work.
And because I was interested in technology, I was interested in
going to law. So I wanted to get a little bit
of experience in before I pursued law school.
So this, you know, opportunity struck me as sort of the perfect
way to to achieve that goal. And it did.
It gave me exposure to technology.
(01:59):
I was able to understand how discovery works.
Some of the tools are used in that in that space.
But at the same time, I also sawthe disconnect between the
lawyers that I was performing this worked for at their request
and the technology I was using. The lawyers didn't seem all that
interested in the technology at all.
They seemed interested in just getting the data they needed to
get to achieve what they want toachieve.
(02:20):
Come Fast forward a little bit to law school.
Law school for me was a bit of adisappointment in that there was
very little discussion of technology and law school.
A lot of it was focused just on theory and kind of the history
of how the law came to be, as many law schools remain focused
on that. And yet I just became more and
more convinced that either I wascrazy or that there really was a
(02:43):
gap between the practice of law and the reality on the ground in
terms of how technology was impacting other industries like
healthcare, insurance, and otherspaces.
So we're going graduated from law school and started working
as a lawyer. I kind of became more and more
interested in discovering whether indeed there were other
folks that were trying to kind of bridge the gap between the
(03:05):
legal world and the tech world. And little behold, there were
folks that were doing that. And so I was, I guess at the
time, bold enough to reach out to some of these folks and
engage with them to learn more about the space, what they were
trying to do to bridge that gap.And those conversations helped
educate me, orientate me to the space.
And I reached the point where I was wanting to share some of my
(03:26):
lessons from those conversationswith others.
And that really started sort of me off on this journey into
legal tech and also was providing me with a foundation
to build off of. That's fantastic.
Thank you sharing that. It's, it's been so interesting
to see how different lawyers have, you know, implemented
different, you know, technology in all their different
(03:49):
principles into their career. Recently I spoke with a lawyer
who went into privacy and they were just telling me a little
bit about it might not be the case anymore, but just about,
you know, a year, 2 ago, you could fast track your career so
much using this specific niche because there aren't any lawyers
who have been 10 years into thistopic.
But to continue our conversationhere, I'd love to hear a little
(04:11):
more about, you know, you've held these many hats I mentioned
before, GC educator, author, advisor.
How do you balance all of these roles while staying grounded in
your core purpose? Yeah.
You know, I'm, I'm just the typethat like just stay busy and
being engaged in a variety of different activities.
So I think that I stay grounded through kind of just couple
(04:32):
things. One, we're on minding myself
that it's important to take a step back and to be grateful for
what I've achieved and what I'm doing to, to really just at
times kind of refocus myself on why became a lawyer in the 1st
place, which was to help people and to also challenge myself
(04:53):
intellectually. And then lastly, I think that
being engaged in all these different activities allows me
to remain connected to the community that empowers me and I
find so inspiring. So that is in part what
motivates me to remain active indoing what I do because I'm so
inspired by others I encounter in the community and in seeking
to help. No, that's beautiful.
(05:13):
I love that. And continuing on that sense
that you're online presence is pretty, it's pretty interesting.
It's incredibly intentional, inspiring.
You've raised awareness to so many important topics.
So if I may ask you, what role has LinkedIn playing played in
shaping your voice and building meaningful, meaningful
connections within the legal community and more specifically
(05:35):
in legal tech? Yeah.
So it's interesting that LinkedIn has been, I think, a
really beneficial platform for me because I kind of intuitively
understood the value of the platform, which was to share
informative content and to buildconnections with others.
And LinkedIn really facilitates that through a variety of ways.
(05:56):
And one of those ways was how I first sort of got my start on
the platform, which is to comment on other people's posts
and kind of provide my own thoughts and try to engage with
them. And much to my surprise and some
part, those folks did engage with me in response to the
comments that I made, which thenprompted me to reach out to them
(06:16):
and connect with them and learn from them.
So I'd say that LinkedIn really has been a key tool in my
toolbox in terms of building my legal tech community, in terms
of building my own expertise in this space, and then helping to
support and inform others. And it remains a very powerful
tool, one that I very much love to use.
(06:37):
And I think it's important for me and also likely for others as
well to not be distracted by kind of the metrics and terms of
numbers or numbers of followers or connections or number of
views on a post are really just be focused on providing
informative and inspiring content for others.
And so long as you do that consistently, I think that
(06:59):
you'll gain benefit from using the platform.
Indeed, that's been the case forme.
I love the idea of using it withauthenticity as well.
I just find it awesome. The idea that you can use it
authentically and you're writingspeaks to transformation, but
also practicality. So if I may ask you a little bit
about first in the legal space, how do you continue to encourage
(07:20):
legal professionals to embrace more innovation, to embrace more
technology into their day-to-daypractice?
And then seeing that in the fast-paced world we're at, how
do you put all these things together?
How can you continually do this work?
Yeah. So, you know, for me, what I
really try to do is make technology as practical and as
(07:41):
real per se as I can for others.And the way that I primarily do
that is through date, through, you know, showing examples, case
studies, sharing data and statistics, really just trying
to kind of ground it in some reality.
Because too often, I think especially in the tech world,
this is not just isolated to legal tech.
(08:02):
It's really, I think, a broad based issue with technology
where there is so much noise andso much hype around technology,
especially these days around AI.And I see myself and other, and
I'm attracted to others who try to cut through all the noise and
the hype and try to provide sortof a real sense of what's
possible, what's not possible, what could be possible.
(08:23):
And it's a constant challenge, but it's one that I happily take
on because I do think it's important for people to
understand a couple of things, that technology is here to stay
and that it shouldn't be something that's intimidating or
overwhelming, but really should be something that helps them be
them being others, being more productive with their time and
what they're doing. That's incredible and it's
(08:46):
showing that I've I've seen where you where you said that
standing still is not an option in this market.
So how does that you know and helps you to stay curious to
help others and also to avoid the complacency in in the
workplace? Yeah, so I am just one who is
never happy to just not be learning or what have you.
(09:10):
So for me, I just see myself as a constant learner because I see
learning as a lifelong process. It doesn't have a defined
endpoint, doesn't really have anendpoint at all.
So that means that I constantly have to learn and have to adapt.
And I think that's important forall of us to do because none of
us knows everything or is good at everything.
(09:31):
So we all have to be acknowledged sort of wrong
shortcomings and our strengths as well as our weaknesses.
And so I often kind of been reminded of the fact that the
more I know, the more reminded of how much there is to learn.
And so that inspires me to keep on learning and keep on
experimenting. I think as we've seen with
technology being very changeable, very dynamic, that
(09:54):
learning really is something that needs to be constantly
focused on and done because otherwise you're going to lose
sight of what's going on in front of.
You yeah, absolutely. And, and talking about that same
topic about the workplace and and where you're at, I'd love to
hear a little bit about happiness at work.
A few weeks ago, I feel like we both saw one of chat about post
(10:15):
chat about and I think his post was very interesting.
He talked about intentionality and and all of that.
And I feel we both connected in that in in commenting to that.
So I'd love to hear from you. What does a a fulfilling career
look like to you and how have you built that into your
professional life? Yeah.
So for me, a fulfilling career means one that is focused on
(10:37):
helping others and that is provided me with a sense of
contentment and happiness. And because of my passion for
legal tech, my role as general counsel Malbec and my role as
sort of legal tech educator gives me a strong sense of
fulfillment and contentment because I'm helping others, I'm
helping myself. And so it's just sort of a
really rewarding place to be. And I feel very lucky and
(10:59):
grateful to be in this position because it certainly took a lot
of work and time to get there. But now that I'm here, I'm
really, really, just, as I said before, grateful to be doing
what I'm doing at this point. Amazing.
And in that sense, you know, a lot of people are starting up
their careers and I feel like the legal field has so many
different things that you can explore and maybe you're not,
(11:20):
you know, feeling that you're super happy at your first job.
So I'd love to hear, you know, what kind of advice would you
give to someone trying to find know that in that intersection,
that sweet spot about where they're what they're good at,
what they care about, where theycan make a difference and
putting that all together. Yeah.
So I think it starts from kind of asking yourself the question
(11:41):
of why, you know, why are you pulled in a certain direction?
Why do you want to do something a certain way?
What is the motivation? What what is pulling you or
pushing you in that direction? And use that then to guide you
as you would kind of explore opportunities.
Because I think the more you know yourself, the more you
listen to yourself and what drives you, the more likely
(12:03):
you're going to feel fulfillmentand whatever it is you're doing
and, or find something that is most aligned with who you are
and what you want to be doing. And that sometimes takes some
work, it takes some experimentation and sometimes
even takes failing. But that's part of the process,
frankly. So you kind of have to kind of
sit with that sort of sense of, you know, you may be
uncomfortable at times, you may fail at times, but that's just,
(12:24):
we all fail. We all feel unhappy at times,
such as part of the journey of life.
So we have to kind of be comfortable being uncomfortable,
as I like to say. I love that.
And during the same topic calling, if I may ask you
thinking about, you know, again,those people who are starting up
their careers and all of that. In your personal opinion, would
you feel that maybe you might need to start where you don't
(12:45):
necessarily love the work yet inorder to build that future
practice that then you come to love and appreciate and be able
to, you know, have a little bit more of a decision making power
and and help on, you know, shaping that workplace.
Do you feel like that has some truth to it?
Had some kind of have you seen that happening in other people's
(13:05):
lives or has that, does that resonate in any way with your
career experience? Yeah, well, I can speak from a
couple of different angles. One from personal experience
where, yeah, I've, I've had a couple of roles where I wasn't
happy a lot of the time, but I was getting these skills and
experience I knew I needed to get to be doing what I want to
(13:26):
be doing eventually. So I had to kind of tolerate it
for as long as they could or as long as they felt like I I was
able to and needed to. So I do think that especially
for younger lawyers or other legal professionals,
unfortunately, the reality really is that sometimes you
have to take a job you don't necessarily love because of the
experience and the opportunitiesmay afford you.
(13:47):
And ideally, that would be at a company where you, you know, at
least can focus on doing your job and not have to worry about
sort of internal politics or other personalities.
But the fact of the matter is sometimes you have to because we
all have different personalitiesand we're all not going to be,
you know, best friends with everyone.
So I think that's important skill as well as being able to
(14:07):
kind of just understand how to get along with people that you
don't necessarily want to get along with or, you know, frankly
don't even want anything to do with it depending on the
situation. So, yeah, I do think that
sometimes, you know, it's build a foundation requires doing
things you don't necessarily want to love to do.
Because the other part of it is regardless of what job you have,
at any stage of your career, there's a high likelihood of you
(14:29):
having to do at least one thing you're not really going to want
to have to do. So the more you can get used to
and be OK with that situation, the better off you'll be over
the long term. Fantastic.
Well, I really appreciate your time.
I really appreciate your answershere in the podcast today, and
thank you so much for joining us.
Thanks so much for having me, I really enjoy this conversation.
(14:50):
It's always great to talk with you and thank you all for tuning
into this episode and we'll see you on the next one.
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