April 30, 2025 • 33 mins
María Mercedes García is a corporate and securities lawyer with a unique cross-border perspective. Originally from Argentina, she practiced tax law in the public and private sectors for over a decade and taught at the university level before relocating to Canada in 2020.
Starting over had a cost: learning a new legal system and rebuilding her career from scratch. After relicensing in Ontario, she now provides in-house legal advisory to Canadian mining companies with projects around the world -including Argentina- focusing on corporate structuring, securities compliance, and ESG matters.
In this episode, Mercedes brings a 360-degree perspective to the law practice, bridges cultural gaps in the profession, and shares what she learned about it: legal advice isn’t just about rules, it’s about context, purpose, and real-world consequences.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:12):
Hello everybody, Welcome to another episode of Studying Law
Around the World. Today I have the opportunity to
be chatting with Mercedes Garciawill be speaking about her
career in Argentina, her career in Canada and just lots of
different insights that we're soexcited to bring to you today.
I got the chance to meet Mercedes a couple of weeks back
(00:32):
at a mining conference at the PDC, which is a very, very
interesting event that happens here in Canada.
And we connected then and since then I have been chatting a
little bit, got started thinkingabout doing a podcast episode
together. So thank you so much for joining
us today, Mercedes. Well, hello everybody.
Thank you for having me. Claudio.
(00:53):
It's a big pleasure to be part of your podcast because as you
mentioned, it was a complete surprise to me meeting you at at
PDC in the context we met because both of us were
volunteering. And as part of that meeting
someone that has the same careerpath and that we have so many
things in common because Claudiois Brazilian, I am Argentinian
(01:15):
and the like, we are all Latin American feelings here doing
more or less the same. I, I felt in, in, in in a
comfortable position from the very first time.
And then when I knew that she had this, this podcast, I have
been listening to it actively. And don't get me wrong, I love
it. And I take notes of every single
(01:37):
guest you have. So I hope that I can bring some
ideas to to your listeners. Thank you so much.
It's really great to have you here today.
And to start our conversation today, I'd love to hear a little
bit about, you know, your early steps of your legal career.
What draw draw you to law? Did you always wanted to be a
lawyer? How did that happen to you?
(01:59):
Well, I was born and raised in alittle farm town.
My parents are farmers and I, I'm going to spoil it.
I, I was the first university graduate from both sides of my
families. I was the, the first one that
wanted to have a, a university degree, but I started
translation. I wanted to be a legal
(02:19):
translator, but I went to study to Buenos Itis.
I was 17 years old. There was not so much Internet
around, so you could only see the programs.
And at some point I started the initial courses and I, and
people would ask me what, what are you going to do as a
translator? And it was like, well, I'm going
to translate documents and they were like, you're going to be
replaced like by computers. And then I started doing my own
(02:43):
search. I started going to the law
school and I realized that the translation apartment was so
small, so small in such a big building to have an idea, the
law school has 24,000 students at the time and the translator
career has less than 1000 of allthose students.
So you can like you are kind of a pariah at the law school and
(03:07):
like you are given the last courses and everything.
And it said I think that I won'tbe liking doing these things
this way and this is the right time for me to change.
So I changed and I know I never told anyone until I had made the
decision. I, I did the change into law
school and with me, I, I had like that interest because I
(03:28):
liked international commerce, international trade, I liked
economy and other things and politics as well.
So I found my well away at law school that it's like, it's not
that I wanted to be a lawyer allthe time.
I think that it has been a transition and, and, and a path
that has been a continuous discovery of subjects of people
(03:51):
of different frameworks. And well, it has put me in
different situations to analyze life and any human interaction.
That's what what attracts me about love that gives you a
framework to analyze anything that is in this planet, at least
still, I still haven't done anything about spatial.
But, and then, well, as I mentioned in the beginning, I
(04:11):
wanted to be a business lawyer and I, I wanted to be the person
that would help my friends to have their businesses.
And when I was going to get my degree, I, I realized that I
didn't know really much what to do being 22 years old with, with
a law degree. So I called my parents again,
farmers and I said, I don't knowwhat to do.
(04:31):
I think that I should pursue taxbecause I think that, that I'm
really interested in what's going on in that world.
And my parents said, OK, what's,what do you need?
As like I need 6 extra months atschool.
And I said, OK, you can take it.Now is the time.
So I, I finish with them a majorin tax law and then I can say
that their, I discovered my, my passion.
(04:53):
And so I finished law school, I started working at the province
of Buenos Aires in the pre training zone for a while.
Then one of my mentors knew thatI was interested in tax and she
recommended me to start working at the National Tax Court as, as
a pro bono student because therewere no positions for me.
So I went there and I, I worked for a year trying to learn about
(05:16):
the tax institutes and writing sentences.
After my second week there and having written my first
sentence, the judge said, I think that you are a really good
feedback. I can't pay you.
So he recommended me to go to a law firm.
And at that law firm, I would doall the things that were
unrelated to, to the, the part of the tribunal I was dealing
(05:37):
with. And then at the law firm I grew
up, then I went to a company to do, to do taxation of
international assignments and more tax planning.
Then I, I moved into a law firm as the head of the tax
department. I was there for two years as the
head. And then, well, you know,
(05:58):
Argentinians reality is, is kindof particular, I thought that in
the beginning that taxation would be the, one of the most
important issues to deal when, when deciding businesses and
deals. And by that time, Argentina had
exchanged like foreign exchange controls.
And I felt that my role was important, but there was much to
(06:21):
say about the role of a lawyer in transactions.
And at the same time I had lots of responsibilities and I liked
the position. But I was offered a job at the
Ministry of Economy and Public Finance and like, I had a
substantial offer. I could go to work at a cabinet
and like, I slept a couple of weeks with that idea.
(06:44):
And then I, I moved to the Ministry of Economy and Public
Finance to, to the cabinet of, of a secretary.
And then I stayed at the ministry at the, at the legal
and administrative Secretariat or an under secretariat.
And then I went to the place where any like public lawyer was
to work in Argentina, which is the Argentine legal counsel and
(07:06):
Solicitor General Office. This is the lawyer that overseas
all the, all the lawyers that defend the interests of the
state in, in terms of institutional and economic
matters. So I worked there since 2017 up
until January 2020. And well, then there was a
(07:27):
change of government and I, I developed many different skills
working at the government because I, I turned like, I
started as a tax lawyer and I ended up being a public finances
and transparency lawyer. And like when the government
changed, I was in like as an enemy, which had to me is like
an absolute compliment because Iwas on the side of pavlic
(07:48):
information transparency and I was implementing, implementing,
sorry, the corruption policies. And then they said, Oh, we don't
like you. So I was fired.
And after that I joined a mediumsized law firm that deals with
capital markets and lots of energy transactions.
But in the meantime, the pandemic started.
I I had a a small baby because my son turned 2 years old when
(08:12):
we were in the middle of the lockdown and I stayed at the
firm for six months, but I decided to move to Canada.
So long short, Long story short,that's my path into long.
Wow, it's just fascinating to see how many things you can do
with a law degree and also just understanding the different
scenarios you've worked in, in, in the both private and public
(08:35):
administrations. So that does give you quite an
advantage to understand how these these different places
really work. Right.
That's so amazing. And, you know, I was going to
ask you about, you know, workingin public and private and how
those roles, you know, were different, how they shaped the
way you see legal practice. I'd love to hear a little bit
more about that, considering that you had such an extensive
(08:57):
experience. And you know what, if I may ask
you before we go into that, whatare you working with right now?
Yes, I'm, I'm, I'm currently working at a law firm, Toronto
based law firm in mining, but weprovide more corporate and
securities advice to mining companies.
And these mining companies are either junior or producing
(09:22):
company. So it's, it's interesting
because we can see all the, all the aspects from, from the
exploration to the production stage.
And basically we are the in-house, the in-house lawyers.
So we attend to the board meetings, committee meetings.
We, we do all the disclosure work, but we also are part of
(09:44):
the transactions. So we are from the very
beginning when junior company wants to explore or like when
they even want to come out to the public and do an IPO or
something like that. And then it's all the path that
the companies go until they findmineral and that they can
(10:04):
produce. And then there are other
companies that are already producing and they have, they
have different levels of, of issues and they have different
legal needs. But basically this 360 approach
on which are the clients needs and how to help them better to
succeed at their, at their business.
(10:24):
This is a fully remote firm and regular we, we try to, to take
our clients as, as if we were part of their business.
We know that we are part of their business and that's
that's. Fantastic.
And it's such a, such a really interesting work that you're
doing right now and, and a very interesting sector especially.
(10:45):
But I'd love to hear a few of your comments, if we could on,
you know, working for public entities versus working for
private entities as someone who's got quite a bit of
experiencing both. I, I think that that working
from in, in both sectors, I always say that I work in from
both sides of the counter. So this gives you a sort of 360°
(11:10):
view on how the law operates. And it's not theory is
everything. You see how how power is
structured and how, how decisionmaking is, is how decision
making works. Actually in the the public
sector, they find that specifically at the Ministry of
Economy and at the General Treasury attorney's office.
(11:33):
What I learned the most, the most was how to approach the law
and the importance of precedent and, and which are like, how do
you move yourself within the incentives and how do you guide
the incentives of the citizens and other stakeholders?
Because you use, you use the lawas a tool for public policy and
(11:55):
you need to have that deep senseof institutional responsibility
and you need to be thinking all the time, ultimately how one
decision can ripple across all the institutions.
You think more, you know, systemic policy and impact
framework is like, you don't take you don't make any decision
(12:17):
in a vacuum. All those decisions need to be
seen as a whole. Might like my specialization
there. Then like move towards like
budget. Where is the money?
Because that was like first, thefirst question you ask yourself
when you are a public, a public lawyer is like, do you have the
competence to do this? And then if you have the
(12:37):
competence, where's the money? That where's my, my main
question. Sometimes I would go to, to
meetings and they were all we need to do this.
And this is like, I'm, I'm here because I'm the person that's
holding the budget. And I don't see that you have
budget to do that. It's fantastic.
But we can't allocate more resources.
And by the way, I studied law and economics after tax.
(12:59):
So like to me it was everything fascinating and well, in the
private sector, you, you, you are you are more focused on the
individual client needs. You are also all the time very
aware of the risk that every single decision entails and you
are prone to seek a strategy in a fast-paced in a fast-paced
(13:26):
environment. There's no difference between
the executive power and the private sector because many
people say, Oh no, we're OK. Yeah, bureaucracy sometimes is
necessary. But when you are working at like
secretary or ministry level, there's no bureaucracy.
They want everything for the daybefore yesterday.
And and there's, there's not such such limitation.
(13:47):
The only limitation you have is the budget and the budget
timeline. Sometimes you are the one that
is saying, hey, we need to do this before, I don't know,
December the 18th because the year ends, but we need to have
the budget closed. And then you won't have any
money until we put, until the president actually puts the, the
next budget. Emotion like you are all the
(14:08):
time running behind, running behind the wheel is there's no
difference. There's no difference between
like a, a private and, and, and a public law setting.
And, and well, it's like, to me,the, the, the aspect that both
worlds have in common is that, that you can reach those micro
and macro perspectives. And legal advice in the end of
(14:31):
the day, is not just about the rules.
It's about understanding a lot the context, the purpose, the
consequences. And any client, any client from
the private or the public sector, they are going to need
clarity, speed and strategy. And sometimes they need someone
that speaks like with the the wisdom is, is not that we are
(14:51):
more intelligent, but sometimes you need to bring common sense
to the to the room. And I think that that's, that
that's the difference. I don't know, perhaps in the
practice. And I'm bringing that to Canada.
Well, now I work with highly regulated clients.
There's no difference. There's like they, they, they
have corporate Securities and Exchange rules to abide by.
(15:15):
When you are a tax lawyer, you have also like a really complex
background that goes from the constitution, like different
procedures, criminal law, contractual or everything gets
into together. And this is.
This is also that both practiceshave in common is you need to
make more sense about those frameworks and and navigate
things that are that seem complex, but you need to
(15:38):
understand the rules. That's amazing.
That's so amazing. I really like what you said, you
know, at at some raise ending some specific scenarios, there's
not that much of a difference asyou'd think.
That's amazing and and somethingthat I noticed that we haven't
touched on, but that I know you did.
You also taught a couple of classes, a couple of courses in
(16:00):
university, right, for nearly a decade, if I'm correct.
And I'd love to hear a little more about, you know, how was
that teaching and keeping it practice?
Is that common in Argentina for experienced lawyers should be
teaching in university at the same time as they practice.
And I'd love to hear a little more about, you know, all the
mentoring and all of that that goes into, you know, basically
(16:23):
raising the next generations of lawyers in your country.
Well, thank you. There's, there's and thank you
for that, that question because no one really asks about the
teaching aspects. And I found that teaching was,
was a privilege. But I need to say something
before I went to the public university in Argentina, you
have public schools and you go to public university.
(16:44):
If you can, there's also the private option like after, like
my life in the UVA University ofBuenos Aires, I also went to,
to, to private university. And when you go to public
university, you know that your law degree is being paid by
taxpayers money. And I was a tax lawyer.
(17:05):
I, I need to repeat that. And I also as a service
provider, we are not only privileged because we have this,
this profession that ultimately you are a guardian of your
constitution and you also have to give back a little bit of
what you got through that institution.
(17:26):
And we have that call when we goto the university and we learn
from all those professors that perhaps like, it's a completely
ignoram and pro bono career. You do it because you love it.
No one pays you, you need to payalmost to go to the university
and teach. And, and it's, it's part, it's,
(17:49):
it's a privilege and, and, and it's something that that also
makes you keep yourself sharp because if you are, you are part
of the practice. And if you lose the connection
with students or what is being talked around the school is, is
something that I don't know, youcan always find your north as
(18:11):
it's like a compass. And teaching also forces you to
revisit those core values, the principles to stay current.
Because sometimes I don't know, the things that I would teach at
at law school were in the back of my mind when I was working,
but I did not have the opportunity to explain all the
constitutional tax principles tothe public officers I was I was
(18:33):
working for. They would not care.
And it's also something that helps you break down complex
ideas into something accessible.It's also a way to make some,
some people motivated and to discover other things because it
happened to me. As I mentioned, I didn't know
what to do when I realized that I was going to turn 22 years old
and I was going to have a low degree.
(18:54):
And then I looked into the university and I, I really like,
or that's something that I used to enjoy was making the, the
students connect the dots, thinking outside, outside the
box and, and putting them in a way that they could think about
the public institutions, no matter which type of law would
(19:15):
they, would they, they, they practice And well, I'm going to
steal directly from Jorge Luis Borquez, the best author of the
Argentinian literature that he used to say that he would learn
all the time from his students. He, like, he, he said that he
had a sort of impostor syndrome when he would teach because you
learn more from your students than than what you can learn
(19:36):
from yourself when, when studying.
And it also shaped the way I, I communicated and how I related
to other professionals and otherpeople in professional settings.
Because as a lawyer, you are notalways working with lawyers.
You work with law clerks, you have the receptionists, you have
like all the people that's helping you in every setting you
(19:58):
walk. And sometimes teaching helps you
to break down those, those concepts to make the, the, the
tasks or or or or or making things or, yes, getting things
done simply. So that's amazing.
That's amazing. And I'm just thinking here, you
know, juggling that career that you had pitching and all of that
together and, and now having this role that you have within
(20:22):
the mining industry, within securities law.
So it's really a big tapestry oflegal concepts and all the
different areas of law that you got the chance to touch.
And I'm sure more and more you see that there are very, very
intertwined. And if I may ask you then
regarding your, your current involvement with mining laws and
securities, what are some of thethings that you find most
(20:42):
rewarding about working in this space?
You mentioned quickly that, you know, you make it for your
clients so that they can feel that you're a part of the
company, that's that you're a part of the business.
But I'd love to hear a little more about that.
It's, I know it's different. I used to be the, the lawyer
that my clients would, would call because I was always on
advising. It's like, guys, please don't
(21:04):
make decisions. And here my, my role is, is
completely different because I need to, I also need to, to say
as like I was at a super senior stage and then when I moved to
Canada, I, I started as anyone starts, it's like, I started
articling like not article, not the LP.
I went to the LP and I joined the firm and it's, it's
(21:26):
something that goes step by stepand I like the environment
because I know that the mining companies want to drill is like,
what do they want? They want to drill, they want to
produce. And to do that, they need to get
money and we need to make them like collect that mining that
money, sorry, through, through financings.
(21:47):
And it's like, OK, there's, there's an efficiency rule
behind they, they need to, they need to comply with lots of
disclosure and they had, they need to have smooth
transactions. And this is, I think that this
is the, the biggest learning that I'm having in Canada
because I always wanted to work with capital markets.
(22:08):
But unfortunately in Argentina, capital markets are really
underdeveloped. And like during my last six
months in my country, I could actually work, but only from the
tax perspective. So here I'm kind of amazed
looking had everything and whichare the things that I can bring
to the table and which are the things that I can I can learn.
It's like I, I I'm considering Iconsider myself a.
(22:30):
Learner that's amazing. And, and taking that into
consideration, you've, you know,you've gone through the
licensing process. You mentioned quickly that you
did the LP went, went through your articles, did your bar exam
and all of that. And I'd love to hear a little
more about this experience here in Canada.
I saw in your profile you did instead of a little more about
(22:51):
mining law, you said it about ESG.
So you've done, you know, quite a while around that, I would say
in the sense in this, in this realm as well of legal education
initiatives and considering your, your background or your
thought in the past. Can you tell me a little more
about, you know, your involvement with, with lawyers
(23:11):
with licensing candidates? I know you're a mentor to many
as well. Well, I think that that was,
should start with the fact that when I joined Osgood, I, I, I
moved to Canada without really knowing what to do.
When I left Argentina, it was, it was like the move was a
personal, it was a professional and also an emotional move
(23:33):
because there were things that were not working for me in my
country and was COVID, as I mentioned.
And, and at some point I was looking for a new chapter or a
new, a new place to grow, to raise my son and also challenge
myself. And when I was there trying to
figure out what to do, the firstthing that happened to me is
(23:54):
that there were some colleagues that reached me out and they
said, Hey, I can help you with this.
I can help you with that. And it was like before I started
connecting with people, they already connected with me and
they were willing to help. And that willingness to help is
like in the case of university, it's, it's, it's a matter of
service. And I, I started doing exactly
(24:14):
the same and organically with, with other people that were,
were going through the same path, like helping them.
I don't know when you settle in Canada, which are the things
that you need to ring, which arethe things that you need to do.
Like all the licensing process itself is quite a complicated
process. If you don't know the rules, you
need to plan ahead. Everything I, I, I, I can't say
(24:37):
that I found myself like lost, but sometimes there are so many
things that you need to tie up aside from the fact that you are
in a new country that is like, Ispeak way slower than in
Spanish. Sometimes I don't know which
language I'm speaking. I don't know if any
internationally trained lawyer has the same issue.
But sometimes I want to say a word and I don't even remember
(24:59):
the word I want to say in any ofthe two languages I speak.
So I, I started doing that more,more naturally, like trying to
connect with people based on their, on their needs and as
part of a service or an act of service to people that were,
were actually needing that. And well, during the licensing
process, like I'm also a mom, I was also like doing the dishes,
(25:21):
planning meals, taking the kid to sending the, the kid to
school, like planning camps and all those things while all this,
like all the process was going on.
So I started connecting with people that had more or less the
same, the same needs. And that was kind of natural.
And then what happened is I, I had to, to write the exams and I
(25:45):
failed my first exam. I failed barristers was like,
and when I was at the at the exam, I realized that oh, I'm
failing was like, I knew that I I then when I saw these
statistics, it was not so bad, but it's like to me it was
something brutal because how am I going to fail an exam?
(26:05):
I have, I don't know how many thousand hours of university
classes. And this is me admitting that
I'm failing. And so I started connecting with
my peers at the LP and with other people that would need
help. I started getting together with
peers and ultimately I also likeit was the shot to my ego was
like, I'm not going to I, I'm not going to minimize that
(26:29):
because and I, I, I felt bad, but still I did not have really
much time because I have, I had to write the, the solicitors
exam within 13 days. So in 13 days I changed the, I
changed the framework. I realized which were the things
(26:50):
that I, I was wrong. I was more familiar with the
solicitors aspect because I was already working as a corporate
lawyer. I used to be a tax lawyer in
Argentina. There were many transferable
skills, but still I wanted to pass it.
And after, after that, when I signed up for the new exam, I
joined, I joined Piper Riley Thompson in the Ontario parks at
(27:11):
the, the, the Ontario Brixham coach and the bar exam bootcamp.
And I, I, I knew how to do it, but I really realized that
sometimes I needed to feel vulnerable.
That was like, that was the biggest acknowledgement in the
boot camps. I was all the time asking
questions and trying to help others.
So after I passed the exam, Piper called me and she's like,
(27:34):
I need to revamp this, this bar bar exam boot camp because I, I
wrote the exam like 3 or 4 yearsago and it's like you have a
different perspective. So I joined her to rethink it a
little bit from, from the new perspectives.
And I also kept on talking with other colleagues and trying to
help because like, I know that that can, the, the Canadian lost
(27:58):
student, the one that comes out from the university has only
big, like only one big issue, all the debt.
They are like they need to, theyneed to pay the, the school debt
and they, they have that Gordon,but they are young and they have
support. But I realized that as an
internationally trained lawyer, I'm I, I also, I also went
(28:21):
through a grievance period. It was like, that's a part of
our journey that no one really talks about, like the
immigration grievance because you decide to move to another
country to get a new challenge to do whatever, but you can't
leave your country behind. Whereas the people that live at
your country, your former colleagues, they think, no, you
(28:43):
left us because you have a better life standard.
And it's not the same because you, you came here for
something, but it's not the samebuilding that the same ties, the
affections, the friendships. And I found myself in that
situation situation. And I realized the only way I'm
all I'm going to succeed at, at it's not at this profession is
(29:06):
that as a human being is connecting with other people
that have the same needs. And like, on one hand, I started
helping Piper at the Ontario barexam coach, but I also started
looking for help from people that went through the same path
that could be, could advise me better.
And I also started using the services of the LSO, the MAP,
(29:27):
asking for counseling. And actually, I will be joining
the, the, the peer support program because I think that
it's important that I can give something back because that form
part, although it forms part of like our licensee fees, I know
that there are others like facing the same issues.
And if I can't help anyone navigate them and offer like
(29:50):
some type of solace, I, I will be happy as I don't know it's,
it goes, it goes beyond the the legal profession.
No, that's amazing. I'm glad you touched on on so
many interesting points, you know, about the profession, the
licensing process, immigration processes.
And that's true. Really, I think we don't we
don't yet talk enough about all of these different aspects that
(30:12):
that make us human right and that make us here living this
experience. That's amazing.
Thank you so much for sharing those thoughts.
I actually had the opportunity to have a podcast with Piper in
the past, so I'll make sure to put it in the show notes here.
So those that are listening and that once you hear a little more
about the Ontario bar exam, get the chance to hear that from her
(30:33):
too, because I think she brings also lots of interesting advice
and interesting insights. Mercedes, to wrap up today's
episode here. And I might catch you a little
bit off guard here, but I'm I'm sure you'll be able to to help
me with this. I'm thinking if you were to give
one piece of advice to people who are listening to the podcast
(30:54):
today and they're just, you know, beginning their licensing
process, what kind of advice would you give then?
What would you tell them? I would ask them to ask for help
for sure. There's there's like what they
find. This is amazing.
There's a lot of talent out there and there's a lot of
people willing to help. There's something that as
(31:16):
lawyers, we love. We love talking about ourselves
and, and don't get me wrong, we,we can get help.
There are, there are means. I, I wish that I could be even
more helpful for one to ones. But get help, know the rules, be
nice to yourself because there'sone part that no one talks
(31:39):
about. It's like I screwed up my
sleeping patterns when I moved to Canada.
At some point, I was sleeping poorly, I was eating poorly, I
was distressed. And sometimes you need to treat
yourself well. And that's something that I
learned more from Piper. Like it took me awhile to
realize that sometimes. Well, I, I don't need to feel
everything as a shame if I'm notspending, I don't know, half an
(32:01):
hour studying or half an hour doing.
I don't know by that time, practice questions.
But in the margin, like whatever, whatever it happens in
your life is going to affect theway you perform.
So you need to be happy. It's like you and and
unhappiness is like it's the small thing and you need to give
(32:22):
give yourself grace. Amazing.
Thank you so much. And I'm sure our listeners, our
listeners here will appreciate these advice as well.
So thank you so much for joiningus today.
Thank you. Everybody who who's listening to
this episode as well and we'll see you on the next episode.
Check out the show notes where I'll put you know, the bioform
Mercedes as well as the link forPipers episode and we'll see you
(32:45):
on the next. Take care everyone.
Hello everybody, Welcome to another episode of Studying Law
Around the World. Today I have the opportunity to
be chatting with Mercedes Garciawill be speaking about her
career in Argentina, her career in Canada and just lots of
different insights that we're soexcited to bring to you today.
I got the chance to meet Mercedes a couple of weeks back
(00:32):
at a mining conference at the PDC, which is a very, very
interesting event that happens here in Canada.
And we connected then and since then I have been chatting a
little bit, got started thinkingabout doing a podcast episode
together. So thank you so much for joining
us today, Mercedes. Well, hello everybody.
Thank you for having me. Claudio.
(00:53):
It's a big pleasure to be part of your podcast because as you
mentioned, it was a complete surprise to me meeting you at at
PDC in the context we met because both of us were
volunteering. And as part of that meeting
someone that has the same careerpath and that we have so many
things in common because Claudiois Brazilian, I am Argentinian
(01:15):
and the like, we are all Latin American feelings here doing
more or less the same. I, I felt in, in, in in a
comfortable position from the very first time.
And then when I knew that she had this, this podcast, I have
been listening to it actively. And don't get me wrong, I love
it. And I take notes of every single
(01:37):
guest you have. So I hope that I can bring some
ideas to to your listeners. Thank you so much.
It's really great to have you here today.
And to start our conversation today, I'd love to hear a little
bit about, you know, your early steps of your legal career.
What draw draw you to law? Did you always wanted to be a
lawyer? How did that happen to you?
(01:59):
Well, I was born and raised in alittle farm town.
My parents are farmers and I, I'm going to spoil it.
I, I was the first university graduate from both sides of my
families. I was the, the first one that
wanted to have a, a university degree, but I started
translation. I wanted to be a legal
(02:19):
translator, but I went to study to Buenos Itis.
I was 17 years old. There was not so much Internet
around, so you could only see the programs.
And at some point I started the initial courses and I, and
people would ask me what, what are you going to do as a
translator? And it was like, well, I'm going
to translate documents and they were like, you're going to be
replaced like by computers. And then I started doing my own
(02:43):
search. I started going to the law
school and I realized that the translation apartment was so
small, so small in such a big building to have an idea, the
law school has 24,000 students at the time and the translator
career has less than 1000 of allthose students.
So you can like you are kind of a pariah at the law school and
(03:07):
like you are given the last courses and everything.
And it said I think that I won'tbe liking doing these things
this way and this is the right time for me to change.
So I changed and I know I never told anyone until I had made the
decision. I, I did the change into law
school and with me, I, I had like that interest because I
(03:28):
liked international commerce, international trade, I liked
economy and other things and politics as well.
So I found my well away at law school that it's like, it's not
that I wanted to be a lawyer allthe time.
I think that it has been a transition and, and, and a path
that has been a continuous discovery of subjects of people
(03:51):
of different frameworks. And well, it has put me in
different situations to analyze life and any human interaction.
That's what what attracts me about love that gives you a
framework to analyze anything that is in this planet, at least
still, I still haven't done anything about spatial.
But, and then, well, as I mentioned in the beginning, I
(04:11):
wanted to be a business lawyer and I, I wanted to be the person
that would help my friends to have their businesses.
And when I was going to get my degree, I, I realized that I
didn't know really much what to do being 22 years old with, with
a law degree. So I called my parents again,
farmers and I said, I don't knowwhat to do.
(04:31):
I think that I should pursue taxbecause I think that, that I'm
really interested in what's going on in that world.
And my parents said, OK, what's,what do you need?
As like I need 6 extra months atschool.
And I said, OK, you can take it.Now is the time.
So I, I finish with them a majorin tax law and then I can say
that their, I discovered my, my passion.
(04:53):
And so I finished law school, I started working at the province
of Buenos Aires in the pre training zone for a while.
Then one of my mentors knew thatI was interested in tax and she
recommended me to start working at the National Tax Court as, as
a pro bono student because therewere no positions for me.
So I went there and I, I worked for a year trying to learn about
(05:16):
the tax institutes and writing sentences.
After my second week there and having written my first
sentence, the judge said, I think that you are a really good
feedback. I can't pay you.
So he recommended me to go to a law firm.
And at that law firm, I would doall the things that were
unrelated to, to the, the part of the tribunal I was dealing
(05:37):
with. And then at the law firm I grew
up, then I went to a company to do, to do taxation of
international assignments and more tax planning.
Then I, I moved into a law firm as the head of the tax
department. I was there for two years as the
head. And then, well, you know,
(05:58):
Argentinians reality is, is kindof particular, I thought that in
the beginning that taxation would be the, one of the most
important issues to deal when, when deciding businesses and
deals. And by that time, Argentina had
exchanged like foreign exchange controls.
And I felt that my role was important, but there was much to
(06:21):
say about the role of a lawyer in transactions.
And at the same time I had lots of responsibilities and I liked
the position. But I was offered a job at the
Ministry of Economy and Public Finance and like, I had a
substantial offer. I could go to work at a cabinet
and like, I slept a couple of weeks with that idea.
(06:44):
And then I, I moved to the Ministry of Economy and Public
Finance to, to the cabinet of, of a secretary.
And then I stayed at the ministry at the, at the legal
and administrative Secretariat or an under secretariat.
And then I went to the place where any like public lawyer was
to work in Argentina, which is the Argentine legal counsel and
(07:06):
Solicitor General Office. This is the lawyer that overseas
all the, all the lawyers that defend the interests of the
state in, in terms of institutional and economic
matters. So I worked there since 2017 up
until January 2020. And well, then there was a
(07:27):
change of government and I, I developed many different skills
working at the government because I, I turned like, I
started as a tax lawyer and I ended up being a public finances
and transparency lawyer. And like when the government
changed, I was in like as an enemy, which had to me is like
an absolute compliment because Iwas on the side of pavlic
(07:48):
information transparency and I was implementing, implementing,
sorry, the corruption policies. And then they said, Oh, we don't
like you. So I was fired.
And after that I joined a mediumsized law firm that deals with
capital markets and lots of energy transactions.
But in the meantime, the pandemic started.
I I had a a small baby because my son turned 2 years old when
(08:12):
we were in the middle of the lockdown and I stayed at the
firm for six months, but I decided to move to Canada.
So long short, Long story short,that's my path into long.
Wow, it's just fascinating to see how many things you can do
with a law degree and also just understanding the different
scenarios you've worked in, in, in the both private and public
(08:35):
administrations. So that does give you quite an
advantage to understand how these these different places
really work. Right.
That's so amazing. And, you know, I was going to
ask you about, you know, workingin public and private and how
those roles, you know, were different, how they shaped the
way you see legal practice. I'd love to hear a little bit
more about that, considering that you had such an extensive
(08:57):
experience. And you know what, if I may ask
you before we go into that, whatare you working with right now?
Yes, I'm, I'm, I'm currently working at a law firm, Toronto
based law firm in mining, but weprovide more corporate and
securities advice to mining companies.
And these mining companies are either junior or producing
(09:22):
company. So it's, it's interesting
because we can see all the, all the aspects from, from the
exploration to the production stage.
And basically we are the in-house, the in-house lawyers.
So we attend to the board meetings, committee meetings.
We, we do all the disclosure work, but we also are part of
(09:44):
the transactions. So we are from the very
beginning when junior company wants to explore or like when
they even want to come out to the public and do an IPO or
something like that. And then it's all the path that
the companies go until they findmineral and that they can
(10:04):
produce. And then there are other
companies that are already producing and they have, they
have different levels of, of issues and they have different
legal needs. But basically this 360 approach
on which are the clients needs and how to help them better to
succeed at their, at their business.
(10:24):
This is a fully remote firm and regular we, we try to, to take
our clients as, as if we were part of their business.
We know that we are part of their business and that's
that's. Fantastic.
And it's such a, such a really interesting work that you're
doing right now and, and a very interesting sector especially.
(10:45):
But I'd love to hear a few of your comments, if we could on,
you know, working for public entities versus working for
private entities as someone who's got quite a bit of
experiencing both. I, I think that that working
from in, in both sectors, I always say that I work in from
both sides of the counter. So this gives you a sort of 360°
(11:10):
view on how the law operates. And it's not theory is
everything. You see how how power is
structured and how, how decisionmaking is, is how decision
making works. Actually in the the public
sector, they find that specifically at the Ministry of
Economy and at the General Treasury attorney's office.
(11:33):
What I learned the most, the most was how to approach the law
and the importance of precedent and, and which are like, how do
you move yourself within the incentives and how do you guide
the incentives of the citizens and other stakeholders?
Because you use, you use the lawas a tool for public policy and
(11:55):
you need to have that deep senseof institutional responsibility
and you need to be thinking all the time, ultimately how one
decision can ripple across all the institutions.
You think more, you know, systemic policy and impact
framework is like, you don't take you don't make any decision
(12:17):
in a vacuum. All those decisions need to be
seen as a whole. Might like my specialization
there. Then like move towards like
budget. Where is the money?
Because that was like first, thefirst question you ask yourself
when you are a public, a public lawyer is like, do you have the
competence to do this? And then if you have the
(12:37):
competence, where's the money? That where's my, my main
question. Sometimes I would go to, to
meetings and they were all we need to do this.
And this is like, I'm, I'm here because I'm the person that's
holding the budget. And I don't see that you have
budget to do that. It's fantastic.
But we can't allocate more resources.
And by the way, I studied law and economics after tax.
(12:59):
So like to me it was everything fascinating and well, in the
private sector, you, you, you are you are more focused on the
individual client needs. You are also all the time very
aware of the risk that every single decision entails and you
are prone to seek a strategy in a fast-paced in a fast-paced
(13:26):
environment. There's no difference between
the executive power and the private sector because many
people say, Oh no, we're OK. Yeah, bureaucracy sometimes is
necessary. But when you are working at like
secretary or ministry level, there's no bureaucracy.
They want everything for the daybefore yesterday.
And and there's, there's not such such limitation.
(13:47):
The only limitation you have is the budget and the budget
timeline. Sometimes you are the one that
is saying, hey, we need to do this before, I don't know,
December the 18th because the year ends, but we need to have
the budget closed. And then you won't have any
money until we put, until the president actually puts the, the
next budget. Emotion like you are all the
(14:08):
time running behind, running behind the wheel is there's no
difference. There's no difference between
like a, a private and, and, and a public law setting.
And, and well, it's like, to me,the, the, the aspect that both
worlds have in common is that, that you can reach those micro
and macro perspectives. And legal advice in the end of
(14:31):
the day, is not just about the rules.
It's about understanding a lot the context, the purpose, the
consequences. And any client, any client from
the private or the public sector, they are going to need
clarity, speed and strategy. And sometimes they need someone
that speaks like with the the wisdom is, is not that we are
(14:51):
more intelligent, but sometimes you need to bring common sense
to the to the room. And I think that that's, that
that's the difference. I don't know, perhaps in the
practice. And I'm bringing that to Canada.
Well, now I work with highly regulated clients.
There's no difference. There's like they, they, they
have corporate Securities and Exchange rules to abide by.
(15:15):
When you are a tax lawyer, you have also like a really complex
background that goes from the constitution, like different
procedures, criminal law, contractual or everything gets
into together. And this is.
This is also that both practiceshave in common is you need to
make more sense about those frameworks and and navigate
things that are that seem complex, but you need to
(15:38):
understand the rules. That's amazing.
That's so amazing. I really like what you said, you
know, at at some raise ending some specific scenarios, there's
not that much of a difference asyou'd think.
That's amazing and and somethingthat I noticed that we haven't
touched on, but that I know you did.
You also taught a couple of classes, a couple of courses in
(16:00):
university, right, for nearly a decade, if I'm correct.
And I'd love to hear a little more about, you know, how was
that teaching and keeping it practice?
Is that common in Argentina for experienced lawyers should be
teaching in university at the same time as they practice.
And I'd love to hear a little more about, you know, all the
mentoring and all of that that goes into, you know, basically
(16:23):
raising the next generations of lawyers in your country.
Well, thank you. There's, there's and thank you
for that, that question because no one really asks about the
teaching aspects. And I found that teaching was,
was a privilege. But I need to say something
before I went to the public university in Argentina, you
have public schools and you go to public university.
(16:44):
If you can, there's also the private option like after, like
my life in the UVA University ofBuenos Aires, I also went to,
to, to private university. And when you go to public
university, you know that your law degree is being paid by
taxpayers money. And I was a tax lawyer.
(17:05):
I, I need to repeat that. And I also as a service
provider, we are not only privileged because we have this,
this profession that ultimately you are a guardian of your
constitution and you also have to give back a little bit of
what you got through that institution.
(17:26):
And we have that call when we goto the university and we learn
from all those professors that perhaps like, it's a completely
ignoram and pro bono career. You do it because you love it.
No one pays you, you need to payalmost to go to the university
and teach. And, and it's, it's part, it's,
(17:49):
it's a privilege and, and, and it's something that that also
makes you keep yourself sharp because if you are, you are part
of the practice. And if you lose the connection
with students or what is being talked around the school is, is
something that I don't know, youcan always find your north as
(18:11):
it's like a compass. And teaching also forces you to
revisit those core values, the principles to stay current.
Because sometimes I don't know, the things that I would teach at
at law school were in the back of my mind when I was working,
but I did not have the opportunity to explain all the
constitutional tax principles tothe public officers I was I was
(18:33):
working for. They would not care.
And it's also something that helps you break down complex
ideas into something accessible.It's also a way to make some,
some people motivated and to discover other things because it
happened to me. As I mentioned, I didn't know
what to do when I realized that I was going to turn 22 years old
and I was going to have a low degree.
(18:54):
And then I looked into the university and I, I really like,
or that's something that I used to enjoy was making the, the
students connect the dots, thinking outside, outside the
box and, and putting them in a way that they could think about
the public institutions, no matter which type of law would
(19:15):
they, would they, they, they practice And well, I'm going to
steal directly from Jorge Luis Borquez, the best author of the
Argentinian literature that he used to say that he would learn
all the time from his students. He, like, he, he said that he
had a sort of impostor syndrome when he would teach because you
learn more from your students than than what you can learn
(19:36):
from yourself when, when studying.
And it also shaped the way I, I communicated and how I related
to other professionals and otherpeople in professional settings.
Because as a lawyer, you are notalways working with lawyers.
You work with law clerks, you have the receptionists, you have
like all the people that's helping you in every setting you
(19:58):
walk. And sometimes teaching helps you
to break down those, those concepts to make the, the, the
tasks or or or or or making things or, yes, getting things
done simply. So that's amazing.
That's amazing. And I'm just thinking here, you
know, juggling that career that you had pitching and all of that
together and, and now having this role that you have within
(20:22):
the mining industry, within securities law.
So it's really a big tapestry oflegal concepts and all the
different areas of law that you got the chance to touch.
And I'm sure more and more you see that there are very, very
intertwined. And if I may ask you then
regarding your, your current involvement with mining laws and
securities, what are some of thethings that you find most
(20:42):
rewarding about working in this space?
You mentioned quickly that, you know, you make it for your
clients so that they can feel that you're a part of the
company, that's that you're a part of the business.
But I'd love to hear a little more about that.
It's, I know it's different. I used to be the, the lawyer
that my clients would, would call because I was always on
advising. It's like, guys, please don't
(21:04):
make decisions. And here my, my role is, is
completely different because I need to, I also need to, to say
as like I was at a super senior stage and then when I moved to
Canada, I, I started as anyone starts, it's like, I started
articling like not article, not the LP.
I went to the LP and I joined the firm and it's, it's
(21:26):
something that goes step by stepand I like the environment
because I know that the mining companies want to drill is like,
what do they want? They want to drill, they want to
produce. And to do that, they need to get
money and we need to make them like collect that mining that
money, sorry, through, through financings.
(21:47):
And it's like, OK, there's, there's an efficiency rule
behind they, they need to, they need to comply with lots of
disclosure and they had, they need to have smooth
transactions. And this is, I think that this
is the, the biggest learning that I'm having in Canada
because I always wanted to work with capital markets.
(22:08):
But unfortunately in Argentina, capital markets are really
underdeveloped. And like during my last six
months in my country, I could actually work, but only from the
tax perspective. So here I'm kind of amazed
looking had everything and whichare the things that I can bring
to the table and which are the things that I can I can learn.
It's like I, I I'm considering Iconsider myself a.
(22:30):
Learner that's amazing. And, and taking that into
consideration, you've, you know,you've gone through the
licensing process. You mentioned quickly that you
did the LP went, went through your articles, did your bar exam
and all of that. And I'd love to hear a little
more about this experience here in Canada.
I saw in your profile you did instead of a little more about
(22:51):
mining law, you said it about ESG.
So you've done, you know, quite a while around that, I would say
in the sense in this, in this realm as well of legal education
initiatives and considering your, your background or your
thought in the past. Can you tell me a little more
about, you know, your involvement with, with lawyers
(23:11):
with licensing candidates? I know you're a mentor to many
as well. Well, I think that that was,
should start with the fact that when I joined Osgood, I, I, I
moved to Canada without really knowing what to do.
When I left Argentina, it was, it was like the move was a
personal, it was a professional and also an emotional move
(23:33):
because there were things that were not working for me in my
country and was COVID, as I mentioned.
And, and at some point I was looking for a new chapter or a
new, a new place to grow, to raise my son and also challenge
myself. And when I was there trying to
figure out what to do, the firstthing that happened to me is
(23:54):
that there were some colleagues that reached me out and they
said, Hey, I can help you with this.
I can help you with that. And it was like before I started
connecting with people, they already connected with me and
they were willing to help. And that willingness to help is
like in the case of university, it's, it's, it's a matter of
service. And I, I started doing exactly
(24:14):
the same and organically with, with other people that were,
were going through the same path, like helping them.
I don't know when you settle in Canada, which are the things
that you need to ring, which arethe things that you need to do.
Like all the licensing process itself is quite a complicated
process. If you don't know the rules, you
need to plan ahead. Everything I, I, I, I can't say
(24:37):
that I found myself like lost, but sometimes there are so many
things that you need to tie up aside from the fact that you are
in a new country that is like, Ispeak way slower than in
Spanish. Sometimes I don't know which
language I'm speaking. I don't know if any
internationally trained lawyer has the same issue.
But sometimes I want to say a word and I don't even remember
(24:59):
the word I want to say in any ofthe two languages I speak.
So I, I started doing that more,more naturally, like trying to
connect with people based on their, on their needs and as
part of a service or an act of service to people that were,
were actually needing that. And well, during the licensing
process, like I'm also a mom, I was also like doing the dishes,
(25:21):
planning meals, taking the kid to sending the, the kid to
school, like planning camps and all those things while all this,
like all the process was going on.
So I started connecting with people that had more or less the
same, the same needs. And that was kind of natural.
And then what happened is I, I had to, to write the exams and I
(25:45):
failed my first exam. I failed barristers was like,
and when I was at the at the exam, I realized that oh, I'm
failing was like, I knew that I I then when I saw these
statistics, it was not so bad, but it's like to me it was
something brutal because how am I going to fail an exam?
(26:05):
I have, I don't know how many thousand hours of university
classes. And this is me admitting that
I'm failing. And so I started connecting with
my peers at the LP and with other people that would need
help. I started getting together with
peers and ultimately I also likeit was the shot to my ego was
like, I'm not going to I, I'm not going to minimize that
(26:29):
because and I, I, I felt bad, but still I did not have really
much time because I have, I had to write the, the solicitors
exam within 13 days. So in 13 days I changed the, I
changed the framework. I realized which were the things
(26:50):
that I, I was wrong. I was more familiar with the
solicitors aspect because I was already working as a corporate
lawyer. I used to be a tax lawyer in
Argentina. There were many transferable
skills, but still I wanted to pass it.
And after, after that, when I signed up for the new exam, I
joined, I joined Piper Riley Thompson in the Ontario parks at
(27:11):
the, the, the Ontario Brixham coach and the bar exam bootcamp.
And I, I, I knew how to do it, but I really realized that
sometimes I needed to feel vulnerable.
That was like, that was the biggest acknowledgement in the
boot camps. I was all the time asking
questions and trying to help others.
So after I passed the exam, Piper called me and she's like,
(27:34):
I need to revamp this, this bar bar exam boot camp because I, I
wrote the exam like 3 or 4 yearsago and it's like you have a
different perspective. So I joined her to rethink it a
little bit from, from the new perspectives.
And I also kept on talking with other colleagues and trying to
help because like, I know that that can, the, the Canadian lost
(27:58):
student, the one that comes out from the university has only
big, like only one big issue, all the debt.
They are like they need to, theyneed to pay the, the school debt
and they, they have that Gordon,but they are young and they have
support. But I realized that as an
internationally trained lawyer, I'm I, I also, I also went
(28:21):
through a grievance period. It was like, that's a part of
our journey that no one really talks about, like the
immigration grievance because you decide to move to another
country to get a new challenge to do whatever, but you can't
leave your country behind. Whereas the people that live at
your country, your former colleagues, they think, no, you
(28:43):
left us because you have a better life standard.
And it's not the same because you, you came here for
something, but it's not the samebuilding that the same ties, the
affections, the friendships. And I found myself in that
situation situation. And I realized the only way I'm
all I'm going to succeed at, at it's not at this profession is
(29:06):
that as a human being is connecting with other people
that have the same needs. And like, on one hand, I started
helping Piper at the Ontario barexam coach, but I also started
looking for help from people that went through the same path
that could be, could advise me better.
And I also started using the services of the LSO, the MAP,
(29:27):
asking for counseling. And actually, I will be joining
the, the, the peer support program because I think that
it's important that I can give something back because that form
part, although it forms part of like our licensee fees, I know
that there are others like facing the same issues.
And if I can't help anyone navigate them and offer like
(29:50):
some type of solace, I, I will be happy as I don't know it's,
it goes, it goes beyond the the legal profession.
No, that's amazing. I'm glad you touched on on so
many interesting points, you know, about the profession, the
licensing process, immigration processes.
And that's true. Really, I think we don't we
don't yet talk enough about all of these different aspects that
(30:12):
that make us human right and that make us here living this
experience. That's amazing.
Thank you so much for sharing those thoughts.
I actually had the opportunity to have a podcast with Piper in
the past, so I'll make sure to put it in the show notes here.
So those that are listening and that once you hear a little more
about the Ontario bar exam, get the chance to hear that from her
(30:33):
too, because I think she brings also lots of interesting advice
and interesting insights. Mercedes, to wrap up today's
episode here. And I might catch you a little
bit off guard here, but I'm I'm sure you'll be able to to help
me with this. I'm thinking if you were to give
one piece of advice to people who are listening to the podcast
(30:54):
today and they're just, you know, beginning their licensing
process, what kind of advice would you give then?
What would you tell them? I would ask them to ask for help
for sure. There's there's like what they
find. This is amazing.
There's a lot of talent out there and there's a lot of
people willing to help. There's something that as
(31:16):
lawyers, we love. We love talking about ourselves
and, and don't get me wrong, we,we can get help.
There are, there are means. I, I wish that I could be even
more helpful for one to ones. But get help, know the rules, be
nice to yourself because there'sone part that no one talks
(31:39):
about. It's like I screwed up my
sleeping patterns when I moved to Canada.
At some point, I was sleeping poorly, I was eating poorly, I
was distressed. And sometimes you need to treat
yourself well. And that's something that I
learned more from Piper. Like it took me awhile to
realize that sometimes. Well, I, I don't need to feel
everything as a shame if I'm notspending, I don't know, half an
(32:01):
hour studying or half an hour doing.
I don't know by that time, practice questions.
But in the margin, like whatever, whatever it happens in
your life is going to affect theway you perform.
So you need to be happy. It's like you and and
unhappiness is like it's the small thing and you need to give
(32:22):
give yourself grace. Amazing.
Thank you so much. And I'm sure our listeners, our
listeners here will appreciate these advice as well.
So thank you so much for joiningus today.
Thank you. Everybody who who's listening to
this episode as well and we'll see you on the next episode.
Check out the show notes where I'll put you know, the bioform
Mercedes as well as the link forPipers episode and we'll see you
(32:45):
on the next. Take care everyone.
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