July 8, 2025 • 29 mins
This episode is sponsored by CONTENDER , The premier agency helping lawyers go from invisible to impossible to ignore on LinkedIn. Learn more at: https://contenderllc.com/work-with-us
Fernando Garcia has over 15 years of experience as a General Counsel. His practice has included providing strategic and legal advice on Canada-wide and international operations, labour relations and employment law and all general legal matters. He holds an MIR from the University of Toronto and LLB/BCL from McGill and recently completed an MBA at Wilfrid Laurier University.
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(00:13):
Welcome to your Studying Law Around the World.
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(00:33):
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Today, I have the opportunity tointerview Fernando Garcia, who
(01:38):
is the Chief Legal and People Officer at Author Group.
Thank you so much for joining ustoday, Fernando.
My absolute pleasure to be here and thank you very much.
Well, thank you for your time and willingness to be here in
the podcast today. We are super excited to ask you
many, many questions about your profession and how you got to
where you're at today and just started off.
(01:59):
I'd love for you to introduce yourself to your audience.
Yeah, great. My name is Frank Garcia porn
Argentina and grew up in Canada.So I've been here for a long,
long time and just My role currently is a mix of both legal
and HR, but I have close to 20 years in the general counsel
(02:21):
role at different organizations.And my background previous to
law school or to to my legal profession was labour relations
and HR. So I had a, you know, I did my
BA labour studies, it didn't masters of labour relations and
I decided to go to law school, it the the legal education and
then completed afterward the NBAas well.
(02:43):
So I've always been interested and I've always had a passion
about sort of the legal realm, but also business and HR.
And I think those those three are three critical components of
any organization they work for. And so it's something that I've
always wanted to have a good understanding and a good grasp
of three different type of practices and try to make best
to bring them together in terms of my profession and in terms of
(03:04):
how. I do my work.
That's amazing. Alright.
I love that you said that your, your background mixes everything
that, that it sounds like what agood in-house lawyer would have,
right, a good notion of, of whatgoes on in a business and then
the HR portion of it. So that's just so fantastic.
I would love to see if there wasa master plan behind it, but
it's sort of just happened as I that became knowledgeable, aware
(03:27):
of one particular practice area.And then I thought, well, that's
really interesting. I wonder how I can marry it with
the other one. And so it just, I can't say I
had a master plan. It just sort of happened.
And then I went with opportunities as they came up.
But it just, you know, I think there's a lot of, you know,
complementary elements of the, of the function and the roles
(03:48):
that, that I play. And that's how I've I've really
fashioned my, my career and how I fashion my approach to to the
legal practice. Amazing what you to dive right
into the questions of today's podcast.
I'd love to hear, you know, whatfirst sparked that interest on
you to become an in house counsel and you have a little
(04:08):
bit more of this applying all ofthis education that you had and
all these skills together. Yeah, absolutely.
Why again, I started in human resources and labour relations.
So I did some some work at Ontario Power Generation, the
labour relations department there when I was when I was
doing my masters. And, you know, I got to work
(04:30):
with some really, really good professionals, both with regard
to, to in house at the company, with regard to my labour
relations department and also with external counsel.
So that, that sort of got me thinking about maybe I should go
to law school. I think it would be kind of
cool. I did have, you know, a passion
for labour relations at that time, the negotiations element
of it, feeling grievances, arbitration, that kind of stuff
(04:53):
that you, it's a good, logical next step to go to law school.
So I did that. And I had already, like I said
before, I had already masters of, of labour relations and
background in that. So when I, when I was going
through law school, like I triedto focus most of my courses in
labour relations type realm. And I graduated, went to work at
a, at a law firm, a boutique labour employment law firm.
(05:16):
And I really enjoyed it was great experience.
But I, I made a decision at thatpoint that I didn't necessarily
want to be brought into a file to deal with an issue and then
go away. I, I love more the being part of
the initial strategy, developingthe strategy, be part of the
implementation of strategy and seeing it through to the end.
(05:37):
I also liked the idea of being with the same people, working
with the same people over and over again on a longer term
relationship. You know, I always say it's like
a marathon rather than a Sprint.And so that those were things
that really attracted me to be in house versus sort of in a law
firm somewhere where you got to deal with specific issues and
then you walked away. Or even more importantly, when
(06:00):
you're in the house, you tend towork on different elements.
So, you know, one day, especially the GC and a smaller
mid-size firm, one day you're working in real estate, not in
the next year dealing with labour relations matter.
When you're working on a contract for you, then you're
working on negotiation. So if no single day is the same
as the other, I'm just the type of person that if I was the
lawyer in charge of forms 374C or whatever, I would just say I
(06:24):
would not do well. I like the diversity of, of, you
know, work. I like the, the being involved
early on, not just firefighting.So I thought that was more a
better fit towards in house. And I will say that my
experience has been that indeed that was right decision for me,
not for everybody maybe, but forme that is the best choice for
for my own capabilities and my own interests.
(06:47):
Well, that's amazing. And in the in this work some
years ago, you, you launched this whole idea of being, you
know, plus shaped lawyer. So you talked about the
importance that in-house counselto to be a little more of that,
you know, be that pre active lawyer as you put into articles
in the past. And I'd love to to know a little
(07:08):
more about what those terms meanand and how they change the way
we think about legal carriers aswell.
Yeah, absolutely. And there's a concept or model
out there called the T shaped lawyer and it's a great concept.
And the concept is that, but you're sort of horizontal skill
set is your ability to know the law and work within the law.
(07:28):
And all lawyers have that right.And you go to law school, you
get trained to be a lawyer. So you're very good at that
piece of it. But then there's something else.
I think especially for in-house counsel, the the value that you
bring is not not just naughty pay.
This is what the law says. Great.
But you have to be able to tie that into the multiple elements
(07:49):
of being a proper, you know, multiple lawyer.
And that that means, you know, knowing us, having a good
understanding of the business, having a good understanding of
the financial elements, having agood understanding of the, you
know, the team that the risk of tolerance of the organization.
Why did we sort of things. So the the broader perspective
or the broader tool sets that you bring in to being in house
(08:12):
counsel mean that you can have political knowledge you want and
be a very good lawyer. That doesn't necessarily mean
you will be a good in-house counsel.
In-house counsel requires a deeper understanding of other
areas as well of that affect your decision, that affect the,
you know, the implementation of the decision making you evolved.
So that the lawyer sort of influenced me quite a bit that
(08:35):
the concept. But then I said, hey, listen,
there should be another element too.
So just trying to get cute with the model.
I added the little plus sheet, that little piece at the top,
which said you can know all the skills and past and know how to
do that. You could be good at, you know,
project management, You can be good at all these other
elements, But there's also an emotional intelligence element
(08:56):
that's very critical of being a successful in-house counsel.
That means, you know, being ableto work with people across
multiple jurisdictions, you know, in diverse working
environments, a good mindset in terms of, you know, not being a
department of no, knowing how todeal with internal conflict,
being able to manage all that. And that that's sort of not a
skill per se in terms of a skillthey can learn.
(09:17):
That's sort of an emotional skill set.
And that I think that's right. Added that the additional piece
at the top of the, the plus shape layer concept.
I mean, it was just an idea. It's out there.
And he had quite a bit of success at the time.
And, you know, I wrote a lot of articles about it and it was an
interesting battle. At the end of the day, if you
were to sum all that up into one, you know, small box, the
(09:38):
concept is when you're in house,you should try to always develop
yourself and gruel to know as many different areas, get
involved in as many different matters as you can get in there
early. Ask for, you know, additional
responsibilities and always grow, right?
Always look at what am I doing to gain more knowledge, gain
(10:00):
more experience or grow my own experience and be part of the
team whereby you not just part of the team to give legal
advice, but you're part of the team to implement decisions and
to, to build those decisions andstrategies.
So it's, it's, it's a whole perspective of, you know, how
you can grow yourself, improve yourself and become more and
more valuable to the organization.
That's fantastic. And I'm so happy to hear that
(10:21):
this is something that that moreprofessionals are thinking of.
And thank you for, for taking your time to, you know, put
some, some words out there on this topic as well.
I think it's so important more and more that we realize that
our, our responsibilities, not only legal work, right, but
really understanding all of those things.
And I'm sure that the most successful in-house counsel or
(10:42):
just lawyers in general do have those notions really clear to
them. Because they couldn't find the,
the, the amount of legal work you do becomes less and less of
proportion in terms of your, your day-to-day right.
Managing people, working with teens, coming up with
strategies, dealing with those kind of things become
increasingly more important. And you tend to find you do less
(11:04):
and less law and you do more andmore managing those
relationships, you know, managing those strategies and
becoming involved in that. So it's a different mindset.
You're more, I always say you'remore of a business person with a
legal degree then you are a lawyer in many ways.
So you got to like that. If that's what you like, if
that's what you're passionate about, then that's when in-house
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counsel type functions or opportunities really become
valuable to you. I know some people say, well, if
you're going to, you know, have an easier work life balance,
yeah, that could be true. Not always, but that, you know,
it's a it's a function. But really what should be
driving your interest is to, youknow, really become part of the
business and be ingrained in thebusiness and, and take
(11:47):
responsibility for what happens and be a real part of a team.
I think that's really. The key that's amazing and
steering the in this general area of, you know, doing all you
can and all of that. I've, I've read some of your
work again and you've been very open with your views about
remote work, especially for early careers and young lawyers.
So I'd love for you to tell us alittle more about that, about
(12:10):
why you think working in person will matter so much, especially
for those junior lawyers and especially those with diverse
backgrounds. Yeah, handful of the time that's
invested in getting into work. I mean, especially younger
lawyers now they're faced with really high cost of living in in
major metropolitan areas where your job might be.
(12:33):
It takes a long time to get intowork and out of work.
So if you have and you have the technology and the abilities to
do things externally and remotely and from home, I don't
think it's an issue so much of, you know, you're working less
or, you know, an issue about being lazy.
I think it really is an issue about being there in person and
learning from others. When I look back into my own
(12:54):
personal career. And again, everybody's situation
is different. So I always like to preface
that, right. But in my particular case, being
on the ground, but walking from point A to point B for an
arbitration hearing and discussing with their senior
lawyer the strategy that we're going to be implementing it, why
it's important. Being able to to get to that
level of building a relationship, having you thrown
(13:14):
into things last minute, meetingthe parties, understanding the,
you know, the reasons behind certain things and the
strategies that you're going to be implementing.
There was a huge value to that. There was a value to that.
That only happens when you're there in person.
You know, in the labour relations, some of the the
hallway meetings that took placethat resolved the matter or that
resulted in a collective agreement being signed.
(13:37):
Those are things that happen in prompt you.
Those things were that were informal conversation that took
place. They say, hey, junior, come
along, listen to the conversation we're going to
have. That's when you really learn
that skill set And you know, youjust can't battle that part in
you can't just be, you know, hey, let's jump to a zoom call
and and, you know, talk about the strategy.
There is some of that, but most of it happens informally and
(14:00):
happens without plan. And it happens sort of in an
environment where if you're not there in person, you're missing
that. So I think it's two parts 1.
I think, you know, after investing so much time and
effort and money into your legalcareer, if you can put in a good
4-5 years and go into the officeand learn from the people there,
especially if you're working on a big firm and you know, you're
(14:21):
getting thrown into pieces. Like I remember when I was at
the, at the boutique labour employment law firm, we wanted
to be the first person in the office everyday because guess
what? A lawyer would walk down the
hall, say, hey, I need somebody to go to court for me today.
I can't make it. Who's going?
You want to be the first person there to get the best assignment
to be able to get in there, to get into court, to get into a
meeting with a client. You got to, you just need to do
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that in person. On the other side of the coin,
the senior orders, I think they can work from home.
Hey, look, they, you know, they already have established their
relationships. They already know what they're
doing. They already have their
practice. They don't need to learn from
anyone, but they now have an obligation to teach others.
And in the same vein, you can teach others through a
conversation. You teach others through a video
(15:03):
conference. But I think the biggest value
still comes from taking that person under your wing, taking
them to a session or a hearing, getting to meet the clients,
getting that, you know, to understand how the the
strategies developed or how we're developing, you know, you
know, relationship with the client.
How do we get a new client? Like there's so many elements
that you really got to pee on the ground.
(15:25):
And again, once you've invested that much time in effort into
your career, just to add those other four or five years at a
time, maybe hopefully you don't have as many other challenges or
commitments of your time. Why not, Again, hard to see
because I'm not unmindful that some people are single parents
or some people don't have maybe childcare services and don't
have all these other things. And I get that.
(15:47):
I'm not trying to be mindful of that.
But what I'm saying is if you can, you should be there whether
it's required or not. I would be the first person
there in the morning and I'll try to be the last person now.
And these were the first 4-5 years to learn.
I mean, that's what you're trying to do, trying to be out
there to learn. And I just can't see it because
as good as technology is, I don't see the same value.
Like I've, I've been in situations where especially
(16:09):
during cold where, you know, we're having virtual calls with
a lawyer, a junior lawyer pops in and the senior lawyer after
what goes? Yeah, I don't even know who that
was. I never met them before you, you
need to be there in person. And again, I'm the person that
really values, you know, human relationships and human touch
and, you know, just being, you know, a situation or advocation
(16:31):
with the person. And I just don't think you can
call it enough. Can you work three days a week
from the office and maybe 2 daysfrom the home?
Sure, why not? But you know, I, I really think
that if you can, then there's a value to that because if you're
present, you're more likely to be visible.
And when you talk about diversity, you know, I, I look
at it and I think, you know, coming myself as a racialized
(16:53):
lawyer early on when I came out and lost one particular, I
didn't have the network so that people had I didn't have the
connections in the profession that other people had.
I had a disadvantage in that sense.
And I had to build that and I had to develop that and I had to
go to events to start building anetwork.
And there was a value to that inperson piece.
(17:13):
So I think if you were to say, look, just dial it in, never
have to come in. The people who are going to be
adversely affected the most are can be that people who don't
have those networks and who are challenged in that sense.
And that has to be new Canadianswho maybe don't have the
connections here. That has to be diverse in the
members from diverse communitiesthat maybe don't have family
members or lawyers or friends that are lawyers, grew up around
(17:35):
lawyers. So they're the ones who I think
even though in some ways it helps some maybe too, because
you don't have to come into the office and if you live a little
further away. But at the same time, I think
there's also potentially that that person is going to be the
ones that are hurt the most because, you know, I always like
to see, you know, we fought longand hard to get a seat at the
business table. The last thing you want to do is
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to not be at the table when there's decisions or or
businesses, you know, situationsbeing made and when you looking
at it in house, right, You know,I worked at an airline before
your pilots come had to come to work.
Your baggage handlers had to come into work.
Everybody else had to come into work.
How does it look if the legal person, the person is not going
to work, right, They're working for it just sends the wrong
(18:19):
message, right. So one team effort and you know,
it's, it's good to be that a person, somebody walking your
own door say, hey, just gonna chat with you for a second
because that, that tends to be where most of the issues.
Are address very interesting. And I, I have to say that it's
not hard to agree with you, right?
If you think about especially senior leadership being there in
the office every day, seeing who's there.
(18:39):
And it does speak a lot, maybe even about the unspoken rules of
the office here, right? Of the things that maybe people
don't say, but but that are happening every day.
And, and going forward, I'd loveto hear a little bit more about
another topic that I think it's really interesting.
And you've wrote about before and it's about going in house
after law school. And so we hear a lot about, you
(19:01):
know, the traditional career path where you spend a
considerable amount of time at afirm and then transition to
going into in in household 0. But it seems that more and more
different companies are open to having more junior professionals
coming in or, you know, people who have who have had another
career before law and all of that context dependent, of
(19:23):
course. But based on your career and all
of that, what would you say about this whole situation of
how do you become an inhouse lawyer?
Yeah, I'm going to give you the lawyer answer.
It depends. And it really does depend on
many variables in fact, right. Well, one thing, for example, on
my situation, I had already a background in labour relations
(19:44):
in HR, I had many years working in that area.
So an opportunity became available as a general counsel 2
years after I graduated from lawschool and the company in a
trucking company really nice. But again, I had already quite a
bit of experience in that area. That was an area that they had
to fill. So it became easier for them to
say hire this guy, even though, you know, I didn't work as long
(20:07):
as I other people had to do in, in, you know, a law firm.
The old model used to be, you know, you worked five years in
the law firm, you became a specialist in a particular area
or knowledgeable enough you thenbasically.
Became that skill set for that company in that particular area.
And then when you were in there,then you diversified and grew
(20:30):
into other areas. You moved up, you know, up from
a, you know, associate council from council to a senior council
to associate general counsel to general counsel.
So you moved in, but the key washow did you get your foot in the
door? What skill set that you used to
get in the door? And once you were in the door,
it's all up to you to build yourcareer.
And that I mean, and there's still that path available for
(20:50):
many people. But the point is now we have
people who are coming in with more background, coming in with
more experience. I mean, just look at some of the
international lawyers we talked about, right?
They're coming in the lawyer somewhere else.
They're bringing a wealth of information and knowledge and
abilities. You don't necessarily need to
get somebody like that's the onethey're five years to prove
themselves to then get into in-house role.
Now, if you find the right opportunity and it comes up to
(21:13):
you and you know, it happens particularly, why not?
If it comes in after your working on law firm, why not?
It's all about where you want toend up in terms of your career,
what your objectives are and what opportunities become
available, right? I mean, I think like I was, you
know, preparation and luck, luckcomes in at some point and you
just have to be able to, you know, when when somebody comes
(21:35):
knocking, you gotta be able to answer the door.
So is it the right thing for everyone?
Maybe, maybe not. Is everyone going to have that
opportunity? Maybe, maybe not.
But the point is, I wouldn't necessarily discount the ability
to go in house early on. It just means that you have to
to understand that when you learn the law school is
important, but it's not going tobe the only thing that you're
going to do every single thing because you're not just going to
(21:56):
do law. You're gonna do a little bit
more of everything. And if you're OK with that, I
think it's a great opportunity. I always say you, especially as
in-house counsel, you fly by theseat of your pants everyday.
Oftentimes you get, you know, the whole impostor syndrome
thing. I always see that happens all
the time. And it's actually a good thing
because it means you're doing things outside your zone of
comfort means you're doing things that you're not used to
doing and you're hurting. You're learning new skills,
(22:18):
you're going to practice area and you do a lot of that.
And I tend to find the especially in those council that
nobody's ever going to see nobody asked to do more work or
to help out with the particular matter to be.
So it's all about you at that point in time.
But the point is, the five year model, is it the only way there?
And I'll say that as you know, legal technology comes into play
(22:41):
and your AI and all these other things, there might be less and
less need for, you know, law firms, you know, junior
articling students and law firms.
So you need to find another approach.
And that in-house counsel, I think is a perfect opportunity.
Very, very interesting. Thank you for sharing those
videos and going for really the end of this very interesting
conversation today. Fernando, I wanted to ask you
(23:03):
also about thinking that a greatportion of my audience today in
the podcast are people who are law students graduating law
school or really early career professionals.
So I'd love to to know what kindof advice would you give to
people who are finishing that upand are going into the the
market right now on their first few years?
(23:23):
What's What are some of the things that you usually tell
people when they ask you for advice?
The one piece of advice I was getting is how do they deal with
you want to get to, but don't have a single approach of
getting there because that's nothow life works, right?
There's all, you know, you always have a plan to somebody
punches you in the face. This sort of the old saying,
(23:44):
right? There's going to be lots of
things that come up, lots of challenges and lots of
opportunities that you have now planned for that you shouldn't
necessarily discount. And I'll give you a good example
of my background, right? So I, I graduated from law
school. I did the articling at a
boutique labour employment law firm and that early on in the
US, some amazing firm. I got to work amazing people.
(24:06):
But again, I do that. That wasn't necessary for me.
I wanted to do more of the business side.
I want to do more of THR more ofthe labour issue side.
So I was presented with an opportunity to a six month
labour relations consultant at one of the companies that had
done some work with was firm. And I'm like, you know what?
I'm not sure what I'm going to do yet, so I'm going to take.
(24:27):
And so I did six months labour relations manager, well, after
going to law school, you know, and the comments everybody said
was why would you do that? What are you doing?
How does that make any sense? So everybody questioned it.
But for me it was a logical nextstep, or at least possible
because look, I had that background, something that was
an interest to me. I had worked with this client,
(24:47):
had given him some advice, what worked on some stuff for them.
So I did that for six months andwhen that came to an end, I went
to another boutique labour employment offer for another
year and a half and then the general counsel retired.
When that general counselor retired, they were looking for
general counsel and I said, hey,listen, I applied for no.
Was that maybe a little bit? Maybe.
(25:09):
But by that point I already knewthe people, I knew the
contracts, I knew the issues, I knew, you know, you know, the
strategies. I knew everything that was
happening with that firm. And I think that gave me an
opportunity to jump into that role as a general counsel 2
years on the law school. And then once you're in, then at
that point you're learning everything and you have an
opportunity to learn from, you know, incredible people from
(25:31):
incredible business people and team members.
So when I when I go back, probably 9 out of 10 times
people would have said that's stupid idea where you going to
go and labour relations manager role after you graduated from
law school. What's wrong with you?
But it became the key for me because that role, that general
counsel role for five years thatallowed me to go into Nissan, as
(25:54):
you know, the general counsel for five years, amazing time,
great experience. Then that needs experience
allowed me to go to cargo jet and the carriage appears
allowing me to come here. So I've been able to develop my
career from that one opportunitythat I took, which most people
thinking rationally have been one of the that really make
sense for you right now. But it made sense.
It doesn't always go from AB. There's lots of little ups and
(26:17):
downs and sideways and things that your career takes you that
you're not aware for the keys always be developing yourself,
always be developing a new skillset.
And it's sometimes take a chanceand sometimes do something that
maybe is outside of your comfortzone.
But you know, don't worry about what other people see.
Make worry about what you need to do, what you think is right
in your situation. So it's always one of those
(26:40):
things where, you know, take advice, take people's insights
and their perspectives, but yet they haven't.
They heal what your values are, what you want to do, where your
goals are. And as long as you're moving
towards that direction, it mightnot be linear, but as long as
you're moving forward in some sense of developing some skill
set, that I think is always a good move.
(27:00):
So you know, the world is changing, our careers changing,
our industry changing, legal technology is changing at
substantially and just look at chat GT, what roles are going to
be there at 2-3 years from now? Who knows.
The point is still do what you got to do and develop yourself
as your skill set. And I think you can't go wrong
regardless of what you're doing in that sense.
Fantastic. Well, thank.
(27:21):
You so very much for all the insights, all the ideas and
especially this important piece of advice.
You're being up to date, open and also check it out, see what
legal technologies coming out there, right.
We don't know what's gonna come up, but it's likely that we have
to we'll have to interact with those.
So there's no better generation better equipped to deal with
(27:42):
that than these young lawyers coming in who are you know I
like the term they use now like the digital natives, right.
So you. Grew up with these tools.
And and we should definitely usethe most out of dancer and you,
right? You go.
There you go. I'm old enough to.
Remember, right, what we had keyboards, right, Typewriters.
(28:06):
Everybody said, oh, well, you know, the computers going to
fundamentally change their job and it's going to destroy so
many jobs. And it it I mean, yes, there
were some modifications and someadjustments, but at the end of
the day, you know, lawyers adopted computers and they made
them that much more productive, right?
Then the Internet came out. That's going to fundamentally
change commerce. It's going to fundamentally
change. It did.
(28:27):
But if things continue, we stillneeded lawyers.
We just needed lawyers with different skill sets, you know,
then you came out with, you know, right now the Chateau Tees
or the artificial intelligence. Is that going to fundamentally
change our practice? Absolutely.
Does that mean you're not going to have lawyers anymore?
Not a chance. What it what it's going to mean
is like, and I would say to people, you're not going to lose
(28:47):
your job because of it, But at the same time, if you're not
adopting the into practice, thenyou might lose your job.
It's just another tool that you add to your your your tool belt
that makes you much more valuable, that makes you much
more effective, efficient, and it just lets you do your job
that so you can't turn a blind eye to it and you can't be
completely afraid of it. You should adopt it, understand
(29:10):
what it does, understand its limitations and really help help
help you. You don't make you better.
I love that. Thank you for.
For putting that that inside as well.
Well, thank you all so much for tuning into today's episode.
Thank you, Fernando, and we'll see you on the next episode.
Thank you. All appreciate it.
Thanks for listening and. We'll see you on the next
(29:30):
episode. This episode was sponsored by
Contender. Check them out at Contender
lc.com.
Welcome to your Studying Law Around the World.
I'm Claudio Klaus. In each episode, I talk with
lawyers, law students, and professors from different parts
of the world to talk about legaleducation, careers, and what the
profession looks like in real life.
We talk about the hard parts, the surprises, and the decisions
that shaped their paths. Whether you're planning to study
(00:33):
abroad, thinking about working in another legal system, or just
curious about how law works around the world, this podcast
is for you. This episode is sponsored by
Contender. How are you doing on LinkedIn?
If you're like 99% of lawyers, your answer is not great.
Which makes sense. You learned LinkedIn as the
(00:55):
place to stash a digital resume and share firm pressers, so no
wonder your LinkedIn presence issomewhere between vanilla and
nonexistent. But I've got good news.
Since we all learned LinkedIn the wrong way, it's pretty easy
to attract more positive attention for you or your
business. Since 2022, Contender has been
(01:15):
the premier agency helping lawyers go from invisible train.
Possible to ignore on LinkedIn. To learn more, check out
www.contenderllc.com. Tell them Claudio sent you.
Today, I have the opportunity tointerview Fernando Garcia, who
(01:38):
is the Chief Legal and People Officer at Author Group.
Thank you so much for joining ustoday, Fernando.
My absolute pleasure to be here and thank you very much.
Well, thank you for your time and willingness to be here in
the podcast today. We are super excited to ask you
many, many questions about your profession and how you got to
where you're at today and just started off.
(01:59):
I'd love for you to introduce yourself to your audience.
Yeah, great. My name is Frank Garcia porn
Argentina and grew up in Canada.So I've been here for a long,
long time and just My role currently is a mix of both legal
and HR, but I have close to 20 years in the general counsel
(02:21):
role at different organizations.And my background previous to
law school or to to my legal profession was labour relations
and HR. So I had a, you know, I did my
BA labour studies, it didn't masters of labour relations and
I decided to go to law school, it the the legal education and
then completed afterward the NBAas well.
(02:43):
So I've always been interested and I've always had a passion
about sort of the legal realm, but also business and HR.
And I think those those three are three critical components of
any organization they work for. And so it's something that I've
always wanted to have a good understanding and a good grasp
of three different type of practices and try to make best
to bring them together in terms of my profession and in terms of
(03:04):
how. I do my work.
That's amazing. Alright.
I love that you said that your, your background mixes everything
that, that it sounds like what agood in-house lawyer would have,
right, a good notion of, of whatgoes on in a business and then
the HR portion of it. So that's just so fantastic.
I would love to see if there wasa master plan behind it, but
it's sort of just happened as I that became knowledgeable, aware
(03:27):
of one particular practice area.And then I thought, well, that's
really interesting. I wonder how I can marry it with
the other one. And so it just, I can't say I
had a master plan. It just sort of happened.
And then I went with opportunities as they came up.
But it just, you know, I think there's a lot of, you know,
complementary elements of the, of the function and the roles
(03:48):
that, that I play. And that's how I've I've really
fashioned my, my career and how I fashion my approach to to the
legal practice. Amazing what you to dive right
into the questions of today's podcast.
I'd love to hear, you know, whatfirst sparked that interest on
you to become an in house counsel and you have a little
(04:08):
bit more of this applying all ofthis education that you had and
all these skills together. Yeah, absolutely.
Why again, I started in human resources and labour relations.
So I did some some work at Ontario Power Generation, the
labour relations department there when I was when I was
doing my masters. And, you know, I got to work
(04:30):
with some really, really good professionals, both with regard
to, to in house at the company, with regard to my labour
relations department and also with external counsel.
So that, that sort of got me thinking about maybe I should go
to law school. I think it would be kind of
cool. I did have, you know, a passion
for labour relations at that time, the negotiations element
of it, feeling grievances, arbitration, that kind of stuff
(04:53):
that you, it's a good, logical next step to go to law school.
So I did that. And I had already, like I said
before, I had already masters of, of labour relations and
background in that. So when I, when I was going
through law school, like I triedto focus most of my courses in
labour relations type realm. And I graduated, went to work at
a, at a law firm, a boutique labour employment law firm.
(05:16):
And I really enjoyed it was great experience.
But I, I made a decision at thatpoint that I didn't necessarily
want to be brought into a file to deal with an issue and then
go away. I, I love more the being part of
the initial strategy, developingthe strategy, be part of the
implementation of strategy and seeing it through to the end.
(05:37):
I also liked the idea of being with the same people, working
with the same people over and over again on a longer term
relationship. You know, I always say it's like
a marathon rather than a Sprint.And so that those were things
that really attracted me to be in house versus sort of in a law
firm somewhere where you got to deal with specific issues and
then you walked away. Or even more importantly, when
(06:00):
you're in the house, you tend towork on different elements.
So, you know, one day, especially the GC and a smaller
mid-size firm, one day you're working in real estate, not in
the next year dealing with labour relations matter.
When you're working on a contract for you, then you're
working on negotiation. So if no single day is the same
as the other, I'm just the type of person that if I was the
lawyer in charge of forms 374C or whatever, I would just say I
(06:24):
would not do well. I like the diversity of, of, you
know, work. I like the, the being involved
early on, not just firefighting.So I thought that was more a
better fit towards in house. And I will say that my
experience has been that indeed that was right decision for me,
not for everybody maybe, but forme that is the best choice for
for my own capabilities and my own interests.
(06:47):
Well, that's amazing. And in the in this work some
years ago, you, you launched this whole idea of being, you
know, plus shaped lawyer. So you talked about the
importance that in-house counselto to be a little more of that,
you know, be that pre active lawyer as you put into articles
in the past. And I'd love to to know a little
(07:08):
more about what those terms meanand and how they change the way
we think about legal carriers aswell.
Yeah, absolutely. And there's a concept or model
out there called the T shaped lawyer and it's a great concept.
And the concept is that, but you're sort of horizontal skill
set is your ability to know the law and work within the law.
(07:28):
And all lawyers have that right.And you go to law school, you
get trained to be a lawyer. So you're very good at that
piece of it. But then there's something else.
I think especially for in-house counsel, the the value that you
bring is not not just naughty pay.
This is what the law says. Great.
But you have to be able to tie that into the multiple elements
(07:49):
of being a proper, you know, multiple lawyer.
And that that means, you know, knowing us, having a good
understanding of the business, having a good understanding of
the financial elements, having agood understanding of the, you
know, the team that the risk of tolerance of the organization.
Why did we sort of things. So the the broader perspective
or the broader tool sets that you bring in to being in house
(08:12):
counsel mean that you can have political knowledge you want and
be a very good lawyer. That doesn't necessarily mean
you will be a good in-house counsel.
In-house counsel requires a deeper understanding of other
areas as well of that affect your decision, that affect the,
you know, the implementation of the decision making you evolved.
So that the lawyer sort of influenced me quite a bit that
(08:35):
the concept. But then I said, hey, listen,
there should be another element too.
So just trying to get cute with the model.
I added the little plus sheet, that little piece at the top,
which said you can know all the skills and past and know how to
do that. You could be good at, you know,
project management, You can be good at all these other
elements, But there's also an emotional intelligence element
(08:56):
that's very critical of being a successful in-house counsel.
That means, you know, being ableto work with people across
multiple jurisdictions, you know, in diverse working
environments, a good mindset in terms of, you know, not being a
department of no, knowing how todeal with internal conflict,
being able to manage all that. And that that's sort of not a
skill per se in terms of a skillthey can learn.
(09:17):
That's sort of an emotional skill set.
And that I think that's right. Added that the additional piece
at the top of the, the plus shape layer concept.
I mean, it was just an idea. It's out there.
And he had quite a bit of success at the time.
And, you know, I wrote a lot of articles about it and it was an
interesting battle. At the end of the day, if you
were to sum all that up into one, you know, small box, the
(09:38):
concept is when you're in house,you should try to always develop
yourself and gruel to know as many different areas, get
involved in as many different matters as you can get in there
early. Ask for, you know, additional
responsibilities and always grow, right?
Always look at what am I doing to gain more knowledge, gain
(10:00):
more experience or grow my own experience and be part of the
team whereby you not just part of the team to give legal
advice, but you're part of the team to implement decisions and
to, to build those decisions andstrategies.
So it's, it's, it's a whole perspective of, you know, how
you can grow yourself, improve yourself and become more and
more valuable to the organization.
That's fantastic. And I'm so happy to hear that
(10:21):
this is something that that moreprofessionals are thinking of.
And thank you for, for taking your time to, you know, put
some, some words out there on this topic as well.
I think it's so important more and more that we realize that
our, our responsibilities, not only legal work, right, but
really understanding all of those things.
And I'm sure that the most successful in-house counsel or
(10:42):
just lawyers in general do have those notions really clear to
them. Because they couldn't find the,
the, the amount of legal work you do becomes less and less of
proportion in terms of your, your day-to-day right.
Managing people, working with teens, coming up with
strategies, dealing with those kind of things become
increasingly more important. And you tend to find you do less
(11:04):
and less law and you do more andmore managing those
relationships, you know, managing those strategies and
becoming involved in that. So it's a different mindset.
You're more, I always say you'remore of a business person with a
legal degree then you are a lawyer in many ways.
So you got to like that. If that's what you like, if
that's what you're passionate about, then that's when in-house
(11:24):
counsel type functions or opportunities really become
valuable to you. I know some people say, well, if
you're going to, you know, have an easier work life balance,
yeah, that could be true. Not always, but that, you know,
it's a it's a function. But really what should be
driving your interest is to, youknow, really become part of the
business and be ingrained in thebusiness and, and take
(11:47):
responsibility for what happens and be a real part of a team.
I think that's really. The key that's amazing and
steering the in this general area of, you know, doing all you
can and all of that. I've, I've read some of your
work again and you've been very open with your views about
remote work, especially for early careers and young lawyers.
So I'd love for you to tell us alittle more about that, about
(12:10):
why you think working in person will matter so much, especially
for those junior lawyers and especially those with diverse
backgrounds. Yeah, handful of the time that's
invested in getting into work. I mean, especially younger
lawyers now they're faced with really high cost of living in in
major metropolitan areas where your job might be.
(12:33):
It takes a long time to get intowork and out of work.
So if you have and you have the technology and the abilities to
do things externally and remotely and from home, I don't
think it's an issue so much of, you know, you're working less
or, you know, an issue about being lazy.
I think it really is an issue about being there in person and
learning from others. When I look back into my own
(12:54):
personal career. And again, everybody's situation
is different. So I always like to preface
that, right. But in my particular case, being
on the ground, but walking from point A to point B for an
arbitration hearing and discussing with their senior
lawyer the strategy that we're going to be implementing it, why
it's important. Being able to to get to that
level of building a relationship, having you thrown
(13:14):
into things last minute, meetingthe parties, understanding the,
you know, the reasons behind certain things and the
strategies that you're going to be implementing.
There was a huge value to that. There was a value to that.
That only happens when you're there in person.
You know, in the labour relations, some of the the
hallway meetings that took placethat resolved the matter or that
resulted in a collective agreement being signed.
(13:37):
Those are things that happen in prompt you.
Those things were that were informal conversation that took
place. They say, hey, junior, come
along, listen to the conversation we're going to
have. That's when you really learn
that skill set And you know, youjust can't battle that part in
you can't just be, you know, hey, let's jump to a zoom call
and and, you know, talk about the strategy.
There is some of that, but most of it happens informally and
(14:00):
happens without plan. And it happens sort of in an
environment where if you're not there in person, you're missing
that. So I think it's two parts 1.
I think, you know, after investing so much time and
effort and money into your legalcareer, if you can put in a good
4-5 years and go into the officeand learn from the people there,
especially if you're working on a big firm and you know, you're
(14:21):
getting thrown into pieces. Like I remember when I was at
the, at the boutique labour employment law firm, we wanted
to be the first person in the office everyday because guess
what? A lawyer would walk down the
hall, say, hey, I need somebody to go to court for me today.
I can't make it. Who's going?
You want to be the first person there to get the best assignment
to be able to get in there, to get into court, to get into a
meeting with a client. You got to, you just need to do
(14:42):
that in person. On the other side of the coin,
the senior orders, I think they can work from home.
Hey, look, they, you know, they already have established their
relationships. They already know what they're
doing. They already have their
practice. They don't need to learn from
anyone, but they now have an obligation to teach others.
And in the same vein, you can teach others through a
conversation. You teach others through a video
(15:03):
conference. But I think the biggest value
still comes from taking that person under your wing, taking
them to a session or a hearing, getting to meet the clients,
getting that, you know, to understand how the the
strategies developed or how we're developing, you know, you
know, relationship with the client.
How do we get a new client? Like there's so many elements
that you really got to pee on the ground.
(15:25):
And again, once you've invested that much time in effort into
your career, just to add those other four or five years at a
time, maybe hopefully you don't have as many other challenges or
commitments of your time. Why not, Again, hard to see
because I'm not unmindful that some people are single parents
or some people don't have maybe childcare services and don't
have all these other things. And I get that.
(15:47):
I'm not trying to be mindful of that.
But what I'm saying is if you can, you should be there whether
it's required or not. I would be the first person
there in the morning and I'll try to be the last person now.
And these were the first 4-5 years to learn.
I mean, that's what you're trying to do, trying to be out
there to learn. And I just can't see it because
as good as technology is, I don't see the same value.
Like I've, I've been in situations where especially
(16:09):
during cold where, you know, we're having virtual calls with
a lawyer, a junior lawyer pops in and the senior lawyer after
what goes? Yeah, I don't even know who that
was. I never met them before you, you
need to be there in person. And again, I'm the person that
really values, you know, human relationships and human touch
and, you know, just being, you know, a situation or advocation
(16:31):
with the person. And I just don't think you can
call it enough. Can you work three days a week
from the office and maybe 2 daysfrom the home?
Sure, why not? But you know, I, I really think
that if you can, then there's a value to that because if you're
present, you're more likely to be visible.
And when you talk about diversity, you know, I, I look
at it and I think, you know, coming myself as a racialized
(16:53):
lawyer early on when I came out and lost one particular, I
didn't have the network so that people had I didn't have the
connections in the profession that other people had.
I had a disadvantage in that sense.
And I had to build that and I had to develop that and I had to
go to events to start building anetwork.
And there was a value to that inperson piece.
(17:13):
So I think if you were to say, look, just dial it in, never
have to come in. The people who are going to be
adversely affected the most are can be that people who don't
have those networks and who are challenged in that sense.
And that has to be new Canadianswho maybe don't have the
connections here. That has to be diverse in the
members from diverse communitiesthat maybe don't have family
members or lawyers or friends that are lawyers, grew up around
(17:35):
lawyers. So they're the ones who I think
even though in some ways it helps some maybe too, because
you don't have to come into the office and if you live a little
further away. But at the same time, I think
there's also potentially that that person is going to be the
ones that are hurt the most because, you know, I always like
to see, you know, we fought longand hard to get a seat at the
business table. The last thing you want to do is
(17:56):
to not be at the table when there's decisions or or
businesses, you know, situationsbeing made and when you looking
at it in house, right, You know,I worked at an airline before
your pilots come had to come to work.
Your baggage handlers had to come into work.
Everybody else had to come into work.
How does it look if the legal person, the person is not going
to work, right, They're working for it just sends the wrong
(18:19):
message, right. So one team effort and you know,
it's, it's good to be that a person, somebody walking your
own door say, hey, just gonna chat with you for a second
because that, that tends to be where most of the issues.
Are address very interesting. And I, I have to say that it's
not hard to agree with you, right?
If you think about especially senior leadership being there in
the office every day, seeing who's there.
(18:39):
And it does speak a lot, maybe even about the unspoken rules of
the office here, right? Of the things that maybe people
don't say, but but that are happening every day.
And, and going forward, I'd loveto hear a little bit more about
another topic that I think it's really interesting.
And you've wrote about before and it's about going in house
after law school. And so we hear a lot about, you
(19:01):
know, the traditional career path where you spend a
considerable amount of time at afirm and then transition to
going into in in household 0. But it seems that more and more
different companies are open to having more junior professionals
coming in or, you know, people who have who have had another
career before law and all of that context dependent, of
(19:23):
course. But based on your career and all
of that, what would you say about this whole situation of
how do you become an inhouse lawyer?
Yeah, I'm going to give you the lawyer answer.
It depends. And it really does depend on
many variables in fact, right. Well, one thing, for example, on
my situation, I had already a background in labour relations
(19:44):
in HR, I had many years working in that area.
So an opportunity became available as a general counsel 2
years after I graduated from lawschool and the company in a
trucking company really nice. But again, I had already quite a
bit of experience in that area. That was an area that they had
to fill. So it became easier for them to
say hire this guy, even though, you know, I didn't work as long
(20:07):
as I other people had to do in, in, you know, a law firm.
The old model used to be, you know, you worked five years in
the law firm, you became a specialist in a particular area
or knowledgeable enough you thenbasically.
Became that skill set for that company in that particular area.
And then when you were in there,then you diversified and grew
(20:30):
into other areas. You moved up, you know, up from
a, you know, associate council from council to a senior council
to associate general counsel to general counsel.
So you moved in, but the key washow did you get your foot in the
door? What skill set that you used to
get in the door? And once you were in the door,
it's all up to you to build yourcareer.
And that I mean, and there's still that path available for
(20:50):
many people. But the point is now we have
people who are coming in with more background, coming in with
more experience. I mean, just look at some of the
international lawyers we talked about, right?
They're coming in the lawyer somewhere else.
They're bringing a wealth of information and knowledge and
abilities. You don't necessarily need to
get somebody like that's the onethey're five years to prove
themselves to then get into in-house role.
Now, if you find the right opportunity and it comes up to
(21:13):
you and you know, it happens particularly, why not?
If it comes in after your working on law firm, why not?
It's all about where you want toend up in terms of your career,
what your objectives are and what opportunities become
available, right? I mean, I think like I was, you
know, preparation and luck, luckcomes in at some point and you
just have to be able to, you know, when when somebody comes
(21:35):
knocking, you gotta be able to answer the door.
So is it the right thing for everyone?
Maybe, maybe not. Is everyone going to have that
opportunity? Maybe, maybe not.
But the point is, I wouldn't necessarily discount the ability
to go in house early on. It just means that you have to
to understand that when you learn the law school is
important, but it's not going tobe the only thing that you're
going to do every single thing because you're not just going to
(21:56):
do law. You're gonna do a little bit
more of everything. And if you're OK with that, I
think it's a great opportunity. I always say you, especially as
in-house counsel, you fly by theseat of your pants everyday.
Oftentimes you get, you know, the whole impostor syndrome
thing. I always see that happens all
the time. And it's actually a good thing
because it means you're doing things outside your zone of
comfort means you're doing things that you're not used to
doing and you're hurting. You're learning new skills,
(22:18):
you're going to practice area and you do a lot of that.
And I tend to find the especially in those council that
nobody's ever going to see nobody asked to do more work or
to help out with the particular matter to be.
So it's all about you at that point in time.
But the point is, the five year model, is it the only way there?
And I'll say that as you know, legal technology comes into play
(22:41):
and your AI and all these other things, there might be less and
less need for, you know, law firms, you know, junior
articling students and law firms.
So you need to find another approach.
And that in-house counsel, I think is a perfect opportunity.
Very, very interesting. Thank you for sharing those
videos and going for really the end of this very interesting
conversation today. Fernando, I wanted to ask you
(23:03):
also about thinking that a greatportion of my audience today in
the podcast are people who are law students graduating law
school or really early career professionals.
So I'd love to to know what kindof advice would you give to
people who are finishing that upand are going into the the
market right now on their first few years?
(23:23):
What's What are some of the things that you usually tell
people when they ask you for advice?
The one piece of advice I was getting is how do they deal with
you want to get to, but don't have a single approach of
getting there because that's nothow life works, right?
There's all, you know, you always have a plan to somebody
punches you in the face. This sort of the old saying,
(23:44):
right? There's going to be lots of
things that come up, lots of challenges and lots of
opportunities that you have now planned for that you shouldn't
necessarily discount. And I'll give you a good example
of my background, right? So I, I graduated from law
school. I did the articling at a
boutique labour employment law firm and that early on in the
US, some amazing firm. I got to work amazing people.
(24:06):
But again, I do that. That wasn't necessary for me.
I wanted to do more of the business side.
I want to do more of THR more ofthe labour issue side.
So I was presented with an opportunity to a six month
labour relations consultant at one of the companies that had
done some work with was firm. And I'm like, you know what?
I'm not sure what I'm going to do yet, so I'm going to take.
(24:27):
And so I did six months labour relations manager, well, after
going to law school, you know, and the comments everybody said
was why would you do that? What are you doing?
How does that make any sense? So everybody questioned it.
But for me it was a logical nextstep, or at least possible
because look, I had that background, something that was
an interest to me. I had worked with this client,
(24:47):
had given him some advice, what worked on some stuff for them.
So I did that for six months andwhen that came to an end, I went
to another boutique labour employment offer for another
year and a half and then the general counsel retired.
When that general counselor retired, they were looking for
general counsel and I said, hey,listen, I applied for no.
Was that maybe a little bit? Maybe.
(25:09):
But by that point I already knewthe people, I knew the
contracts, I knew the issues, I knew, you know, you know, the
strategies. I knew everything that was
happening with that firm. And I think that gave me an
opportunity to jump into that role as a general counsel 2
years on the law school. And then once you're in, then at
that point you're learning everything and you have an
opportunity to learn from, you know, incredible people from
(25:31):
incredible business people and team members.
So when I when I go back, probably 9 out of 10 times
people would have said that's stupid idea where you going to
go and labour relations manager role after you graduated from
law school. What's wrong with you?
But it became the key for me because that role, that general
counsel role for five years thatallowed me to go into Nissan, as
(25:54):
you know, the general counsel for five years, amazing time,
great experience. Then that needs experience
allowed me to go to cargo jet and the carriage appears
allowing me to come here. So I've been able to develop my
career from that one opportunitythat I took, which most people
thinking rationally have been one of the that really make
sense for you right now. But it made sense.
It doesn't always go from AB. There's lots of little ups and
(26:17):
downs and sideways and things that your career takes you that
you're not aware for the keys always be developing yourself,
always be developing a new skillset.
And it's sometimes take a chanceand sometimes do something that
maybe is outside of your comfortzone.
But you know, don't worry about what other people see.
Make worry about what you need to do, what you think is right
in your situation. So it's always one of those
(26:40):
things where, you know, take advice, take people's insights
and their perspectives, but yet they haven't.
They heal what your values are, what you want to do, where your
goals are. And as long as you're moving
towards that direction, it mightnot be linear, but as long as
you're moving forward in some sense of developing some skill
set, that I think is always a good move.
(27:00):
So you know, the world is changing, our careers changing,
our industry changing, legal technology is changing at
substantially and just look at chat GT, what roles are going to
be there at 2-3 years from now? Who knows.
The point is still do what you got to do and develop yourself
as your skill set. And I think you can't go wrong
regardless of what you're doing in that sense.
Fantastic. Well, thank.
(27:21):
You so very much for all the insights, all the ideas and
especially this important piece of advice.
You're being up to date, open and also check it out, see what
legal technologies coming out there, right.
We don't know what's gonna come up, but it's likely that we have
to we'll have to interact with those.
So there's no better generation better equipped to deal with
(27:42):
that than these young lawyers coming in who are you know I
like the term they use now like the digital natives, right.
So you. Grew up with these tools.
And and we should definitely usethe most out of dancer and you,
right? You go.
There you go. I'm old enough to.
Remember, right, what we had keyboards, right, Typewriters.
(28:06):
Everybody said, oh, well, you know, the computers going to
fundamentally change their job and it's going to destroy so
many jobs. And it it I mean, yes, there
were some modifications and someadjustments, but at the end of
the day, you know, lawyers adopted computers and they made
them that much more productive, right?
Then the Internet came out. That's going to fundamentally
change commerce. It's going to fundamentally
change. It did.
(28:27):
But if things continue, we stillneeded lawyers.
We just needed lawyers with different skill sets, you know,
then you came out with, you know, right now the Chateau Tees
or the artificial intelligence. Is that going to fundamentally
change our practice? Absolutely.
Does that mean you're not going to have lawyers anymore?
Not a chance. What it what it's going to mean
is like, and I would say to people, you're not going to lose
(28:47):
your job because of it, But at the same time, if you're not
adopting the into practice, thenyou might lose your job.
It's just another tool that you add to your your your tool belt
that makes you much more valuable, that makes you much
more effective, efficient, and it just lets you do your job
that so you can't turn a blind eye to it and you can't be
completely afraid of it. You should adopt it, understand
(29:10):
what it does, understand its limitations and really help help
help you. You don't make you better.
I love that. Thank you for.
For putting that that inside as well.
Well, thank you all so much for tuning into today's episode.
Thank you, Fernando, and we'll see you on the next episode.
Thank you. All appreciate it.
Thanks for listening and. We'll see you on the next
(29:30):
episode. This episode was sponsored by
Contender. Check them out at Contender
lc.com.
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