July 11, 2025 • 20 mins
This episode is sponsored by CONTENDER , The premier agency helping lawyers go from invisible to impossible to ignore on LinkedIn. Learn more at: https://contenderllc.com/work-with-us
Spencer May is a J.D. candidate at the University of Arizona James E. Rogers College of Law, where he is currently entering his final year. He is a Dean’s List recipient, Dean’s Achievement Scholar, and a member of the Arizona Journal of Emerging Technology's Articles Committee.
Spencer brings a strong foundation in contracts, real estate, and business law. He currently serves as a Legal Intern on the Corporate Contracts and Risk Management team at Meritage Homes, where he drafts subcontractor agreements, acquisition documents, and conducts multi-jurisdictional legal research on lien and repair laws. He has also completed a legal internship at LifePlan Legal AZ, supporting estate planning work in a small-firm setting.
Prior to law school, Spencer gained practical business experience at ADP in client services and district management. His legal interests include transactional law, real estate, and supporting entrepreneurs through contract strategy and risk analysis.
Outside the classroom, Spencer is widely known for helping law students grow their presence on LinkedIn. He’s created a free guide on how to get started on the platform and regularly shares advice on networking, outreach, and building early professional relationships. His work blends a strategic approach to legal career-building with a strong focus on authenticity and community.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:11):
Welcome to your studying law Around the world.
I'm Claudio Claus. In each episode, I talk with
lawyers, law students, and professors from different parts
of the world to talk about legaleducation, careers, and what the
profession looks like in real life.
We talk about the hard parts, the surprises, and the decisions
that shaped their paths. Whether you're planning to study
(00:32):
abroad, thinking about working in another legal system, or just
curious about how law works around the world, this podcast
is for you. This episode is sponsored by
Contender. How are you doing on LinkedIn?
If you're like 99% of lawyers, your answer is not great, which
makes sense. You learned LinkedIn as the
(00:54):
place to stash a digital resume and share firm dressers, so no
wonder your LinkedIn presence issomewhere between vanilla and
nonexistent. But I've got good news.
Since we all learned LinkedIn the wrong way, it's pretty easy
to attract more positive attention for you or your
business. Since 2022, Contender has been
(01:14):
the premier agency helping lawyers go from invisible train
possible to ignore on LinkedIn. To learn more, check out
www.contenderllc.com. Tell them Claudio sent you.
Hello, everybody. Welcome to another episode of
(01:35):
Studying Law around the World. And she today I got the chance
to speak with Spencer May, who'sat the University of Arizona and
just sharing lots of wonderful content on LinkedIn and being
really active and just giving a good example of things that you
can do while you're in law school.
So I'm always happy to talk withlaw students and people who are
(01:55):
going through their education. Thank you so much for joining us
today, Spencer. Yeah, I'm looking.
Forward to it. Thank you so much.
Really appreciate it. And to start off our episode
today, could you introduce yourself to your audience?
Yeah. Absolutely.
So very quickly. I was born and raised in Central
California. Both my parents are educators,
so going after higher education or or secondary education was,
(02:16):
you know, something that wasn't too far away for me.
I met my wife in Provo, UT whilewe were both undergrads at BYU.
And her family has very deep roots out in Arizona.
So there was really not much of A competition as far as whether
we were going to settle in Fresno, CA where I grew up, or
Gilbert, AZ where she grew up. I was a very easy sell.
(02:39):
So I am now, I'm a second year law student at the University of
Arizona Law School, like you mentioned, planning to practice
in Phoenix after graduation. And I'm spending my 2:00, well
summer with a home builder up inScottsdale.
So I I do my best to work all the freeways I can up and down.
Arizona. That's amazing.
There you go. And if I may ask you start off,
(03:00):
why did you choose law school inthe 1st place and what are you
hoping to build with your career?
Sure, those people can generallypinpoint 1 moment of, of
clarity, light bulb moment wherethey knew that they needed to be
a lawyer, that they needed to goto law school.
For me, I think it was more of asunrise that gradually over time
and emerged just as the right and the only choice.
(03:22):
And then I had good experiences,found good mentors, got good
advice, had positive feedback inthe LSAT application.
And then in the start of law school process, as far as what I
want to, what I was hoping to build with a career in law, I
think I saw it as a logical or or traditional kind of first
(03:43):
step into building a career and building a life that that was
tangible and I could wrap my mind around.
So here I am today. Fantastic.
Well, I'm very happy to hear that.
And I, I really like what you said about how that clarity
comes about. I think it's the experience of
most people, to be honest, that you're just not, you know, born
or since kindergarten knowing you want to be a lawyer.
(04:05):
And I love to hear that sincerity as well.
And you've been sharing a lot ofthings on, on LinkedIn, you've
been open about starting law school with a newborn at home
and what that experience has taught you so far about, you
know, tying priorities, your identity as well.
Yeah, I'll start at the end. So your last point that you
asked about is, is identity. And that was the biggest shift
(04:27):
for me. I think anyone that that weeks
to start on a legal career wouldprobably say that they're either
extrinsically or intrinsically motivated that a lot of of
people in the law attach worth or attach value to prestige or
or other people's definitions ofsuccess.
Or me holding that 7 lbs, six ounce, 21 1/2 inch little boy in
(04:53):
my arms was a very clarifying experience because I understood
that that ultimately the decisions that I had had some
serious weight. And and I've experienced A
mindset shift where I needed to root my identity more firmly in
my faith and my family and what what they thought of me.
And that's not to say that that I changed or lowered or altered
(05:15):
my like expectations for my career or what I wanted to do,
but my primary thought and priority needed to be, you know,
what my wife and children thought of me.
And, and I don't think that you have to sacrifice what you do
all day or, or the like aspirations you have for your
career. I do really think that you could
(05:35):
have it all. And so I'm in pursuit of that.
Those comments you just made, they're just incredible.
I just have a bigger and bigger admiration for people who can
handle all of it. And as I step into the the
fatherhood you, it's being just an incredible way to see how all
of these things intersect and just give you some extra layer
of admiration for people who do it all.
(05:57):
I've shared a couple of times here in the podcast before, but
one of my big goals on on doing my degree here in Toronto was
you grow that network and be able to talk to more people and
all of that. And a big motivation was people
who were already doing that, youknow, who are sharing their
experiences and you're being oneof those people, Spencer.
So I'd love to hear a little more about your strategies and
(06:19):
when when did you first decide to start posting to start
sharing your trajectory and how everything would go?
And did you have high expectations at the time?
Did you post you know if a high level of strategy or you kind of
learned on the way? Sure.
First of all, congratulations. I know you're a new father and
you guys have done some relocating.
You're obviously building something really cool both on
(06:40):
and offline. For me, I did have a bit of a
light bulb moment as far as posting on LinkedIn during
undergrad. I would say like most Gen.
Z's, I was perpetually online. For me, my social media of
choice was Instagram and I put alot of time trying to look cool,
making stories, post whatever itwas, you know, like building up
(07:01):
this like single cool guy persona.
I, I had to take a step back as I started to take my academic
and professional life more seriously and really evaluate
where it was worth it to spend my time.
And I, I realized very quickly that if I was going to have a
career in law and be a lawyer, that lawyers were online and
(07:22):
lawyers were on LinkedIn. So I decided to fish where the
fish are. And just like anyone, there was
no grand strategy. I didn't enlist in a course
that, you know, helped me go from zero to 100 mph immediately
is like a master class of LinkedIn.
It really was just starting at the beginning.
(07:42):
And if you go back and you startswiping on the things that I was
putting out in 2023 going into law school, they look like I
didn't know what I was doing because candidly, I didn't.
I had all the energy, I had all the outreach.
I was making connections. I was starting to get responses
to cold outreach that I was doing to attorneys.
(08:04):
And I would obviously, with their permission, ask to, you
know, share what we talked aboutonline and how I had chosen to
do that was with screenshots in my Notes app, which is just,
they look horrible. And it was unprofessional.
Nobody engaged with it. But like slowly as you continue
to kind of exercise those muscles in any domain here we're
(08:25):
focusing on LinkedIn. You get better, you're able to
move more weight and you can be a little more strategic and and
honestly it make it look a little more aesthetic.
That's awesome. I'm happy that you had that
light bulb moment because as you, as you've seen in you and
as you've been recognized enoughor not enough yet your, your
post and all of that do motivateother people to, to be a little
more active in the platform and to also seek out those, those
(08:48):
opportunities. So really appreciate that public
interest work should do in a wayto all your fellow colleagues
all across the globe during thistopic.
A lot of students are afraid to post on LinkedIn because they
feel like they have nothing to say.
What kind of advice do you give out to other people who might
feel that way? That is the most common response
that I hear from students. And that's not something that
(09:12):
they'll necessarily comment on aLinkedIn post, but it is
definitely in my DNA. It's in my my text threads
anytime I have a voice call withwith students.
But my retort is, is honestly, you have nothing to lose, right?
No one expects an incoming or even just interested law student
to be a subject matter expert. And a part of starting and
(09:34):
growing a legal career is understanding and accepting what
you don't know. But that's not an excuse to stay
that way. So in this kind of online
domain, I think the best thing that students can do and what I
share is just to talk about whatyou do know.
You are at the very least the subject matter expert in what
you have experienced. And there is some sort of
(09:57):
cathartic kind of nature to sharing what's you do and learn
and grapple with online. And you'll notice that lawyers,
paraprofessionals, people involved in the legal community
are very opinionated and they'rehappy to weigh in and give you
advice and, and tell you all thethings that you should do know
or, or be interested in. But it takes that first initial
(10:21):
throwing of caution to the wind to just get the ball rolling.
And then that's it's, it's a pretty strong, you know, you can
build pretty strong momentum. From there, fantastic and and
talking about that momentum, butwhat's been the most surprising
message or connection that you've received through your
LinkedIn community so far? Yeah, I don't want to see anyone
out. I would just say that the most
(10:43):
surprising experience that I have had has been when I have
shared authentically online and it's led to like real world
connections. How many legal practitioners
have looked me dead in the eyes and have said you are the first
law student that has ever reached out to me, which I think
(11:04):
is is shocking because outside the legal world we probably say
that there are too many lawyers,right?
And you would think if there wasa a generation in any profession
of people who were getting started and wanted to learn that
there would kind of be like maybe a stair step sort of
process and connection and interaction along the way.
(11:25):
For whatever reason, with the attorneys that I have interacted
with, most of the time in Arizona, they don't have law
students that are reaching out to them and asking for
questions, looking for mentors. And that has just been shocking
to me. That's so interesting.
I feel like there is a very interesting points to Astrid
that happening in Toronto in a way that we do have a few
(11:50):
professionals that are very active on social media and all
of that. And they have I feel like an
overwhelming amount of people reaching out.
Whereas in those other professionals don't don't get
the same share of the attention of that.
So it becomes very a very interesting thing to see where
some professionals are announcing that they cannot help
(12:10):
anybody else out just because ofall the people they decided to
take in. And then on the other hand,
people that don't get messages at all and that maybe would be
happy to to mentor and all of that.
So I love that it starts reaching out, right?
You wouldn't know what that looks like unless you take the
first step. And I'm happy to hear that you
did that. I feel like on your posts and
(12:31):
all of that, you talk a lot about this power of the cold
outreach, right? As somebody who recently moved
to Arizona as well, and, and honestly, I feel like that would
be very much the same anywhere else in the globe.
Can you share about a time when sending a bold message led to
something bigger than you expected?
I'll share the why. First, why I am so on fire about
(12:54):
cold outreach, especially with attorneys is because that was my
only option. My parents, again I grew up as
the child of two elementary school teachers.
They taught 1st and 4th grade. I think I had met 2 attorneys in
person when I went to undergrad and started as a pre law student
when we moved to Arizona. My wife Stanley works in asphalt
(13:18):
windows and another of their family members is like was a
Community College math teacher. So again, a totally different
world than the legal community to single out one experience
that I think encapsulates it allwould be the story of how I got
my externship that I have today at a national home builder.
So I came out of the the on campus interview cycle
(13:40):
disappointed and a little bit dejected, honestly, because my
career outcomes to that point had not matched with my
expectations were. And so I was searching and
looking for answers and honestlylooking for mentors or people
smarter than me who had, you know, online looked like they
had it figured out. So I looked at alumni and I came
across an alumni of our law school.
(14:02):
His name won't share, but he almost immediately responded to
my e-mail, typos and all, and said that he'd be willing to
talk. We got on the line and and I
caught him up basically on my experience in law school that
thus far and he said, you know, generally I don't answer
outreach like this. I'm a busy guy.
I'm a CEO who's exited something.
(14:23):
I'm now run a prominent capital allocation firm.
I'm also a board member of a lotof nonprofits and, and even a
public company. And I just really was, was
shocked by your outreach becausemy son is your age and I read
your question in his voice and felt like I had to answer.
(14:45):
It just so happened that I endedup based on the advice that he
gave, I started looking at in-house attorney roles in a
certain industry in the home building industry.
I got past the screening stage and, and was progressing in the
interview process. And come to find out the public
home builder that I was interviewing at, he just so
happened to be a board member ofthat company.
(15:06):
So it was this serendipitous experience that I could have
never had had I not really just,you know, reached out and then
gotten lucky. But I think there's a famous
line and I don't want to miss attribute it to a former
president or it might have been Thomas Edison, But who said, you
know, the harder I work, the luckier I get.
(15:26):
And so for me, that's the cold outreach to attorneys or or
people that are, you know, a step or two further down the
path than I am. That's fantastic.
No, I really love that you shared that there is there's an
awesome Ted talk as well from Tina Seelig that also brings up
a lot about what luck looks like.
And it really means a lot of, you know, hard work really and
(15:47):
and taking those opportunities and maximizing them.
So it's always a happy experience to get you here when
people make that work for the best for then and use those
tools available. And I could really say you've
built some something meaningful while you're still, you know, a
full time law student and out ofcuriosity as well and hoping to
provide some advice to other lawstudents who are also managing
(16:09):
family, a job during the summer,going back to law school.
How do you manage it all? And and do you put any system or
any boundary so that you can stay grounded and able to manage
all of these things together? If you've ever read a comment
section on anything I've put on LinkedIn, you'll see that
there's no one-size-fits-all, soI can only share what I've done.
(16:31):
Now during law school I have worked every semester but that
first semester 1L, which I don'tnecessarily recommend.
But for me and my family, what'sworked is having periodic
check-ins and and communicating regularly and setting certain
boundaries Like like you ask. So for us, after the first
semester with a newborn, us being only married for two or
(16:54):
three years at that point, we decided that it was really
important that I was home for dinner every night.
So there were certain things that needed to happen as far as
law school or work and anytime. But my wife always knew that at
6:00 PM I was going to be home and I was going to be fully
there. And I would say that that was
(17:14):
something that grounded me because in law school or when
you're coming up in your legal career, when you're doing
anything that matters, it can expand to fit the space that you
allow it to. And I was fortunate to have an
understanding and a helpful partner who knew for our family,
(17:35):
we needed some time together. And ultimately, like I was the
beneficiary of that. It helped me keep my head up,
you know, straight. It helped me stay grounded,
helped me to see my son grow up,which is more important than
anything I'll do all day long. And, and as far as if you wanna
talk practical tips, I lived outof the Google Keep software,
(17:57):
which is basically just a glorified to-do list that talks
with your Google Calendar and your Gmail account.
And I just drew from that well all day.
I lived out of that thing and and then did all the the
academic and professional stuff based on what I.
Had in there. Fantastic.
Well, that was really inspiring to here.
If you could give me one piece of advice to someone starting up
(18:19):
law school today, what would you?
Tell them that's an easy one. For me it would be to reach out
to attorneys early and often. That's amazing.
I do believe that regardless of where you are in the world,
that's very much something that applies.
There was a culture that I noticed early on here in Toronto
where people would go out to coffee chats.
It, it was just a big thing. And then I guess with COVID and
(18:41):
all that, virtual coffee chats also became a big thing.
So people will, you know, hop ona Zoom call with their favorite.
And do you feel like there's there's somewhat of a culture
like that in the region where you.
Are right now, I think it's the same anywhere you go, Especially
like you acknowledge in a post COVID world, those in person
touches or interactions are now fewer and farther between
(19:05):
because Zoom has replaced a lot of those air, you know, quote,
UN quote, unnecessary meetings or unnecessary happy hours or or
whatever it would be, you know, the travel that really got us in
person and talking face to face.So because those interactions
are happening less frequently, generally, I would say that they
mean more when they happen. So there are personal touches
(19:27):
that us as those entering the legal profession who are
generally going to be asking more than we're giving, there
are personal touches that we canadd into that.
And those experiences like beinginterested in what the person
does, showing up on time, being courteous, saying thank you,
sending a thank you e-mail, at the very least, maybe a
handwritten note. I think all of those things go
(19:50):
even further than they did in the analog world right before
the onset of the Internet, Zoom and all that.
That's, you know, kind of evolved.
So thank you so much for taking the time to speak.
That's today, Spencer. Really appreciate your insights.
Thank you for having me on, it'sbeen great.
Thanks for listening, and we'll see you on the next episode.
(20:10):
This episode was sponsored by Contender.
Check them out at contenderllc.com.
Welcome to your studying law Around the world.
I'm Claudio Claus. In each episode, I talk with
lawyers, law students, and professors from different parts
of the world to talk about legaleducation, careers, and what the
profession looks like in real life.
We talk about the hard parts, the surprises, and the decisions
that shaped their paths. Whether you're planning to study
(00:32):
abroad, thinking about working in another legal system, or just
curious about how law works around the world, this podcast
is for you. This episode is sponsored by
Contender. How are you doing on LinkedIn?
If you're like 99% of lawyers, your answer is not great, which
makes sense. You learned LinkedIn as the
(00:54):
place to stash a digital resume and share firm dressers, so no
wonder your LinkedIn presence issomewhere between vanilla and
nonexistent. But I've got good news.
Since we all learned LinkedIn the wrong way, it's pretty easy
to attract more positive attention for you or your
business. Since 2022, Contender has been
(01:14):
the premier agency helping lawyers go from invisible train
possible to ignore on LinkedIn. To learn more, check out
www.contenderllc.com. Tell them Claudio sent you.
Hello, everybody. Welcome to another episode of
(01:35):
Studying Law around the World. And she today I got the chance
to speak with Spencer May, who'sat the University of Arizona and
just sharing lots of wonderful content on LinkedIn and being
really active and just giving a good example of things that you
can do while you're in law school.
So I'm always happy to talk withlaw students and people who are
(01:55):
going through their education. Thank you so much for joining us
today, Spencer. Yeah, I'm looking.
Forward to it. Thank you so much.
Really appreciate it. And to start off our episode
today, could you introduce yourself to your audience?
Yeah. Absolutely.
So very quickly. I was born and raised in Central
California. Both my parents are educators,
so going after higher education or or secondary education was,
(02:16):
you know, something that wasn't too far away for me.
I met my wife in Provo, UT whilewe were both undergrads at BYU.
And her family has very deep roots out in Arizona.
So there was really not much of A competition as far as whether
we were going to settle in Fresno, CA where I grew up, or
Gilbert, AZ where she grew up. I was a very easy sell.
(02:39):
So I am now, I'm a second year law student at the University of
Arizona Law School, like you mentioned, planning to practice
in Phoenix after graduation. And I'm spending my 2:00, well
summer with a home builder up inScottsdale.
So I I do my best to work all the freeways I can up and down.
Arizona. That's amazing.
There you go. And if I may ask you start off,
(03:00):
why did you choose law school inthe 1st place and what are you
hoping to build with your career?
Sure, those people can generallypinpoint 1 moment of, of
clarity, light bulb moment wherethey knew that they needed to be
a lawyer, that they needed to goto law school.
For me, I think it was more of asunrise that gradually over time
and emerged just as the right and the only choice.
(03:22):
And then I had good experiences,found good mentors, got good
advice, had positive feedback inthe LSAT application.
And then in the start of law school process, as far as what I
want to, what I was hoping to build with a career in law, I
think I saw it as a logical or or traditional kind of first
(03:43):
step into building a career and building a life that that was
tangible and I could wrap my mind around.
So here I am today. Fantastic.
Well, I'm very happy to hear that.
And I, I really like what you said about how that clarity
comes about. I think it's the experience of
most people, to be honest, that you're just not, you know, born
or since kindergarten knowing you want to be a lawyer.
(04:05):
And I love to hear that sincerity as well.
And you've been sharing a lot ofthings on, on LinkedIn, you've
been open about starting law school with a newborn at home
and what that experience has taught you so far about, you
know, tying priorities, your identity as well.
Yeah, I'll start at the end. So your last point that you
asked about is, is identity. And that was the biggest shift
(04:27):
for me. I think anyone that that weeks
to start on a legal career wouldprobably say that they're either
extrinsically or intrinsically motivated that a lot of of
people in the law attach worth or attach value to prestige or
or other people's definitions ofsuccess.
Or me holding that 7 lbs, six ounce, 21 1/2 inch little boy in
(04:53):
my arms was a very clarifying experience because I understood
that that ultimately the decisions that I had had some
serious weight. And and I've experienced A
mindset shift where I needed to root my identity more firmly in
my faith and my family and what what they thought of me.
And that's not to say that that I changed or lowered or altered
(05:15):
my like expectations for my career or what I wanted to do,
but my primary thought and priority needed to be, you know,
what my wife and children thought of me.
And, and I don't think that you have to sacrifice what you do
all day or, or the like aspirations you have for your
career. I do really think that you could
(05:35):
have it all. And so I'm in pursuit of that.
Those comments you just made, they're just incredible.
I just have a bigger and bigger admiration for people who can
handle all of it. And as I step into the the
fatherhood you, it's being just an incredible way to see how all
of these things intersect and just give you some extra layer
of admiration for people who do it all.
(05:57):
I've shared a couple of times here in the podcast before, but
one of my big goals on on doing my degree here in Toronto was
you grow that network and be able to talk to more people and
all of that. And a big motivation was people
who were already doing that, youknow, who are sharing their
experiences and you're being oneof those people, Spencer.
So I'd love to hear a little more about your strategies and
(06:19):
when when did you first decide to start posting to start
sharing your trajectory and how everything would go?
And did you have high expectations at the time?
Did you post you know if a high level of strategy or you kind of
learned on the way? Sure.
First of all, congratulations. I know you're a new father and
you guys have done some relocating.
You're obviously building something really cool both on
(06:40):
and offline. For me, I did have a bit of a
light bulb moment as far as posting on LinkedIn during
undergrad. I would say like most Gen.
Z's, I was perpetually online. For me, my social media of
choice was Instagram and I put alot of time trying to look cool,
making stories, post whatever itwas, you know, like building up
(07:01):
this like single cool guy persona.
I, I had to take a step back as I started to take my academic
and professional life more seriously and really evaluate
where it was worth it to spend my time.
And I, I realized very quickly that if I was going to have a
career in law and be a lawyer, that lawyers were online and
(07:22):
lawyers were on LinkedIn. So I decided to fish where the
fish are. And just like anyone, there was
no grand strategy. I didn't enlist in a course
that, you know, helped me go from zero to 100 mph immediately
is like a master class of LinkedIn.
It really was just starting at the beginning.
(07:42):
And if you go back and you startswiping on the things that I was
putting out in 2023 going into law school, they look like I
didn't know what I was doing because candidly, I didn't.
I had all the energy, I had all the outreach.
I was making connections. I was starting to get responses
to cold outreach that I was doing to attorneys.
(08:04):
And I would obviously, with their permission, ask to, you
know, share what we talked aboutonline and how I had chosen to
do that was with screenshots in my Notes app, which is just,
they look horrible. And it was unprofessional.
Nobody engaged with it. But like slowly as you continue
to kind of exercise those muscles in any domain here we're
(08:25):
focusing on LinkedIn. You get better, you're able to
move more weight and you can be a little more strategic and and
honestly it make it look a little more aesthetic.
That's awesome. I'm happy that you had that
light bulb moment because as you, as you've seen in you and
as you've been recognized enoughor not enough yet your, your
post and all of that do motivateother people to, to be a little
more active in the platform and to also seek out those, those
(08:48):
opportunities. So really appreciate that public
interest work should do in a wayto all your fellow colleagues
all across the globe during thistopic.
A lot of students are afraid to post on LinkedIn because they
feel like they have nothing to say.
What kind of advice do you give out to other people who might
feel that way? That is the most common response
that I hear from students. And that's not something that
(09:12):
they'll necessarily comment on aLinkedIn post, but it is
definitely in my DNA. It's in my my text threads
anytime I have a voice call withwith students.
But my retort is, is honestly, you have nothing to lose, right?
No one expects an incoming or even just interested law student
to be a subject matter expert. And a part of starting and
(09:34):
growing a legal career is understanding and accepting what
you don't know. But that's not an excuse to stay
that way. So in this kind of online
domain, I think the best thing that students can do and what I
share is just to talk about whatyou do know.
You are at the very least the subject matter expert in what
you have experienced. And there is some sort of
(09:57):
cathartic kind of nature to sharing what's you do and learn
and grapple with online. And you'll notice that lawyers,
paraprofessionals, people involved in the legal community
are very opinionated and they'rehappy to weigh in and give you
advice and, and tell you all thethings that you should do know
or, or be interested in. But it takes that first initial
(10:21):
throwing of caution to the wind to just get the ball rolling.
And then that's it's, it's a pretty strong, you know, you can
build pretty strong momentum. From there, fantastic and and
talking about that momentum, butwhat's been the most surprising
message or connection that you've received through your
LinkedIn community so far? Yeah, I don't want to see anyone
out. I would just say that the most
(10:43):
surprising experience that I have had has been when I have
shared authentically online and it's led to like real world
connections. How many legal practitioners
have looked me dead in the eyes and have said you are the first
law student that has ever reached out to me, which I think
(11:04):
is is shocking because outside the legal world we probably say
that there are too many lawyers,right?
And you would think if there wasa a generation in any profession
of people who were getting started and wanted to learn that
there would kind of be like maybe a stair step sort of
process and connection and interaction along the way.
(11:25):
For whatever reason, with the attorneys that I have interacted
with, most of the time in Arizona, they don't have law
students that are reaching out to them and asking for
questions, looking for mentors. And that has just been shocking
to me. That's so interesting.
I feel like there is a very interesting points to Astrid
that happening in Toronto in a way that we do have a few
(11:50):
professionals that are very active on social media and all
of that. And they have I feel like an
overwhelming amount of people reaching out.
Whereas in those other professionals don't don't get
the same share of the attention of that.
So it becomes very a very interesting thing to see where
some professionals are announcing that they cannot help
(12:10):
anybody else out just because ofall the people they decided to
take in. And then on the other hand,
people that don't get messages at all and that maybe would be
happy to to mentor and all of that.
So I love that it starts reaching out, right?
You wouldn't know what that looks like unless you take the
first step. And I'm happy to hear that you
did that. I feel like on your posts and
(12:31):
all of that, you talk a lot about this power of the cold
outreach, right? As somebody who recently moved
to Arizona as well, and, and honestly, I feel like that would
be very much the same anywhere else in the globe.
Can you share about a time when sending a bold message led to
something bigger than you expected?
I'll share the why. First, why I am so on fire about
(12:54):
cold outreach, especially with attorneys is because that was my
only option. My parents, again I grew up as
the child of two elementary school teachers.
They taught 1st and 4th grade. I think I had met 2 attorneys in
person when I went to undergrad and started as a pre law student
when we moved to Arizona. My wife Stanley works in asphalt
(13:18):
windows and another of their family members is like was a
Community College math teacher. So again, a totally different
world than the legal community to single out one experience
that I think encapsulates it allwould be the story of how I got
my externship that I have today at a national home builder.
So I came out of the the on campus interview cycle
(13:40):
disappointed and a little bit dejected, honestly, because my
career outcomes to that point had not matched with my
expectations were. And so I was searching and
looking for answers and honestlylooking for mentors or people
smarter than me who had, you know, online looked like they
had it figured out. So I looked at alumni and I came
across an alumni of our law school.
(14:02):
His name won't share, but he almost immediately responded to
my e-mail, typos and all, and said that he'd be willing to
talk. We got on the line and and I
caught him up basically on my experience in law school that
thus far and he said, you know, generally I don't answer
outreach like this. I'm a busy guy.
I'm a CEO who's exited something.
(14:23):
I'm now run a prominent capital allocation firm.
I'm also a board member of a lotof nonprofits and, and even a
public company. And I just really was, was
shocked by your outreach becausemy son is your age and I read
your question in his voice and felt like I had to answer.
(14:45):
It just so happened that I endedup based on the advice that he
gave, I started looking at in-house attorney roles in a
certain industry in the home building industry.
I got past the screening stage and, and was progressing in the
interview process. And come to find out the public
home builder that I was interviewing at, he just so
happened to be a board member ofthat company.
(15:06):
So it was this serendipitous experience that I could have
never had had I not really just,you know, reached out and then
gotten lucky. But I think there's a famous
line and I don't want to miss attribute it to a former
president or it might have been Thomas Edison, But who said, you
know, the harder I work, the luckier I get.
(15:26):
And so for me, that's the cold outreach to attorneys or or
people that are, you know, a step or two further down the
path than I am. That's fantastic.
No, I really love that you shared that there is there's an
awesome Ted talk as well from Tina Seelig that also brings up
a lot about what luck looks like.
And it really means a lot of, you know, hard work really and
(15:47):
and taking those opportunities and maximizing them.
So it's always a happy experience to get you here when
people make that work for the best for then and use those
tools available. And I could really say you've
built some something meaningful while you're still, you know, a
full time law student and out ofcuriosity as well and hoping to
provide some advice to other lawstudents who are also managing
(16:09):
family, a job during the summer,going back to law school.
How do you manage it all? And and do you put any system or
any boundary so that you can stay grounded and able to manage
all of these things together? If you've ever read a comment
section on anything I've put on LinkedIn, you'll see that
there's no one-size-fits-all, soI can only share what I've done.
(16:31):
Now during law school I have worked every semester but that
first semester 1L, which I don'tnecessarily recommend.
But for me and my family, what'sworked is having periodic
check-ins and and communicating regularly and setting certain
boundaries Like like you ask. So for us, after the first
semester with a newborn, us being only married for two or
(16:54):
three years at that point, we decided that it was really
important that I was home for dinner every night.
So there were certain things that needed to happen as far as
law school or work and anytime. But my wife always knew that at
6:00 PM I was going to be home and I was going to be fully
there. And I would say that that was
(17:14):
something that grounded me because in law school or when
you're coming up in your legal career, when you're doing
anything that matters, it can expand to fit the space that you
allow it to. And I was fortunate to have an
understanding and a helpful partner who knew for our family,
(17:35):
we needed some time together. And ultimately, like I was the
beneficiary of that. It helped me keep my head up,
you know, straight. It helped me stay grounded,
helped me to see my son grow up,which is more important than
anything I'll do all day long. And, and as far as if you wanna
talk practical tips, I lived outof the Google Keep software,
(17:57):
which is basically just a glorified to-do list that talks
with your Google Calendar and your Gmail account.
And I just drew from that well all day.
I lived out of that thing and and then did all the the
academic and professional stuff based on what I.
Had in there. Fantastic.
Well, that was really inspiring to here.
If you could give me one piece of advice to someone starting up
(18:19):
law school today, what would you?
Tell them that's an easy one. For me it would be to reach out
to attorneys early and often. That's amazing.
I do believe that regardless of where you are in the world,
that's very much something that applies.
There was a culture that I noticed early on here in Toronto
where people would go out to coffee chats.
It, it was just a big thing. And then I guess with COVID and
(18:41):
all that, virtual coffee chats also became a big thing.
So people will, you know, hop ona Zoom call with their favorite.
And do you feel like there's there's somewhat of a culture
like that in the region where you.
Are right now, I think it's the same anywhere you go, Especially
like you acknowledge in a post COVID world, those in person
touches or interactions are now fewer and farther between
(19:05):
because Zoom has replaced a lot of those air, you know, quote,
UN quote, unnecessary meetings or unnecessary happy hours or or
whatever it would be, you know, the travel that really got us in
person and talking face to face.So because those interactions
are happening less frequently, generally, I would say that they
mean more when they happen. So there are personal touches
(19:27):
that us as those entering the legal profession who are
generally going to be asking more than we're giving, there
are personal touches that we canadd into that.
And those experiences like beinginterested in what the person
does, showing up on time, being courteous, saying thank you,
sending a thank you e-mail, at the very least, maybe a
handwritten note. I think all of those things go
(19:50):
even further than they did in the analog world right before
the onset of the Internet, Zoom and all that.
That's, you know, kind of evolved.
So thank you so much for taking the time to speak.
That's today, Spencer. Really appreciate your insights.
Thank you for having me on, it'sbeen great.
Thanks for listening, and we'll see you on the next episode.
(20:10):
This episode was sponsored by Contender.
Check them out at contenderllc.com.
Popular Podcasts
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.