June 2, 2025 • 27 mins
Sandra Shime is the Director of Dispute Resolution Services. Sandra has extensive experience in dispute resolution, adjudication, and management in both the private and public sectors. Most recently she served for 13 years as a Vice Chair and the Alternate Chair at the Workplace Safety & Insurance Appeals Tribunal (WSIAT). Sandra adjudicated and mediated cases at the WSIAT and also worked on policy and training initiatives. Sandra has broad expertise in administrative law and mediation and has worked throughout the province with major unions and employers. Her prior roles included working as a litigation lawyer at a national law firm in NYC, as an Assistant District Attorney, and as Director of Pro Bono Programs at the Women's Bar Foundation in Massachusetts. In her volunteer work, Sandra has served as part of the executive team for Women in Leadership Foundation where she has led diversity, equity and inclusion initiatives and worked on leadership initiatives in the areas of business, law and technology. She was selected as Co-Chair for the 2022-2023 year. Sandra also volunteers as a mentor with high school students for Achev, a non-profit in Ontario, and has worked as a mentor for law students at Justice for Children and Youth and at the Lincoln Alexander School of Law. Sandra has worked as a lecturer and speaker at the Society of Ontario Adjudicators and Regulators and at the Ontario Bar Association. Sandra is a certified mediator in New York, Massachusetts and Ontario. She is currently a member in good standing at the Law Society of Upper Canada and has been admitted to the bar in Massachusetts, Ontario and New York. Sandra was nominated for the 2021/2022 YWCA Women of Distinction Award and she was recently nominated in July 2022 for the Ministry for Women and Gender Equality and Youth Governor-General Award for her work with first generation students and on gender equality in the law.In this episode, Sandra Shime, Director of Dispute Resolution Services in Ontario, explores how legal professionals can bridge the gap between theory and practice. She shares insights on labour law, public service, career transitions, and why listening is a lawyer’s most underrated skill.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:12):
Hello, everybody. Welcome to another episode of
Studying Law around the World. Today we have the opportunity to
receive Sandra Shine. She's the Director of Dispute
Resolution Services here in Ontario.
She has an extensive experience in dispute resolution
adjudication and management in both the private and public
sectors. Thank you so much for joining us
(00:35):
today, Sandra. Good afternoon.
Thank you for having me on this podcast and I look forward to
our conversation today. Amazing.
Well, choose start our conversation today.
I I'd love to hear a little bit about yourself.
You could you could introduce yourself short, short which you
are listeners and we can just right after that jump into your
conversation. Absolutely.
(00:55):
So you've indicated my name and my title, and I do work here for
the Ontario province and I work as the Director of Dispute
Resolution Services in the Ministry of Labour, Immigration,
Training and Skills Development.And in my job, what my team does
is we provide mediation assistance to unions and
employers to assist with collective bargaining across the
province. So in more layman's terms, I
(01:18):
would say that we work with parties to prevent work
stoppages and labour disruptionsacross the province in the
private and public sector and assist parties to get to their
collective agreements. It's every day, it's a different
workplace and different parties.And that's what makes it really
interesting is we get to share and be art of people's
(01:39):
workplaces across the province, whether it be a large workplace
like a large private manufacturer or we get to be in
a municipality, at a school board, involved in transit,
involved in medical facility. And we're really privileged that
people share their lives and their workplaces with us every
day. But that's also what makes our
work very, very interesting is we get to be part of working
(02:00):
with parties, unions and employers to come to agreements
that define and explain what theterms of their work conditions
will be over the course of theircollective agreement.
That sounds so interesting. And as you know, in our, in our
podcast, a lot of the focus is to get out to listen to the
story of our guests. So beyond, you know, hearing
about what they do these days, we love hearing a little bit
(02:22):
about how they get you to where they are.
And we'd love to learn a little more about your trajectory in
that sense. Sandra, So I know you were
involved being Cardozo School ofLaw, Law Review, and you also
interned at the Manhattan DA's office.
And I was wondering how did those early experiences have
influenced your career, your career goals?
(02:44):
So I think, I think it would be actually sort of not quite
accurate as a career goals because I think a lot of things
happened as I went along by opportunity, interest, passion
was being opened, doors being closed.
So I think my career goals were perhaps one thing, but it's
come, you know, my trajectory has changed overtime based on a
(03:05):
lot of factors. Sometimes there's personal
factors, wanting to balance and having children and work as a
lawyer. Some of it was interest and
passion for the work. So I think my goals changed
depending on what stage of life and what opportunities.
And as I said, what doors open, but also what doors closed.
And I've heard that in some of your other guest podcasts as
well. And I think that's probably one
(03:25):
of the themes of all your podcasts is that sometimes
opportunities present in your career goals adjust and change
as you go. I am interned at the Manhattan
District Attorney's Office when I was in law school and I found
a real passion for criminal law,really loved criminal law,
really liked working in the prosecution side where you could
be a voice for victims of crime and sort of advocate for victims
(03:48):
of crime. But what I also saw at the
district attorney's office was also a real belief in the
integrity of the justice system.So not a determination to win,
but a determination to do justice.
And sometimes doing justice means you lose.
And sometimes I felt that I really valued that.
So when I graduated from law school, I actually couldn't go
(04:10):
to the Manhattan DA's office because you had to be an
American citizen, and I was a Canadian, so I wasn't able to do
that. So I went to a large law firm in
New York City where I actually learned from some of the best
lawyers. So while I didn't love the work
that I was doing, I didn't feel passion about.
I wasn't really a voice for anyone other than, you know, one
large company against another. But what I did take out of that
(04:32):
experience is how to be a reallygood lawyer, how to be really
thoughtful, how to really read the law, how to work really
hard, understand details, a strong work ethic, and how to be
smart about things. And so I took that experience
and when I moved to Massachusetts, I applied to
become a prosecutor. They didn't have the same rule
there that you had to be an American citizen.
(04:53):
So I sort of didn't let go of mydream to working criminal law
and be a prosecutor and be a voice for victims of crime.
I actually continue took that with me and when I was able to
have the opportunity to go work as a prosecutor, I did so I went
to Boston, MA and worked as a prosecutor there.
And again, really felt like the integrity of what people did
(05:16):
there, which was not just being the voice for victims of crime.
And I did a lot of work with domestic violence victims, but
also wanting to really preserve the integrity of the system that
the justice system, it's important for all of society
that justice works in a fair andequitable way.
Meaning sometimes there isn't enough evidence to convict.
I may know that this has occurred, but the system is
(05:38):
important for all of us to main the integrity to maintain the
integrity of the law. And so I really saw that in the
people I worked with, and that became sort of a passion for me,
but also made that job really important to me as well, that
our goals were both to prosecuteand advocate, but also to make
sure the system maintained its integrity.
(05:59):
And I think that integrity in the system is something I've
taken with me and all my jobs across the way, which is really
believing in the integrity of a system, but also making change
where you can to build integrityinto a system or preserve
integrity or to enhance integrity in a system.
So I think we do that every day in my job now in labour, where
the integrity of the system, where collective bargaining,
(06:19):
employers and unions get to speak and negotiate and discuss
and argue and sort of sometimes Duke it out over what is a fair
workplace look like, what's equitable in a workplace.
And help parties together come to make the best system that
they possibly can within the constraints that there may be,
whether that's financial, workforce opportunities,
location, strength of the parties.
(06:41):
So I think that's something thatI took from my early days that I
tried to preserve and have worked for in all the different
parts of my career. Well, that sounds amazing.
First of all, something that I, that I love and that has been a
theme in the podcast is really hearing what people can do with
a law degree. It's really opportunities are
limitless. And there's of course a lot of a
(07:03):
lot that happens between, you know, having that dream job or
having that career you always expected to.
But also I just find it fascinating the wide range of
things you can do. And it's being amazing to meet
so many lawyers that have reallymade those plans come true.
And considering these experienceyou just mentioned about being
(07:24):
an assistant District Attorney in Massachusetts, I'd love to
hear a little bit, you know, if you have some stories or or you
know, some points about what aresome of your most formative
moments from that time? I think a few things, one is
just the passion with which people around me cared about
their work and felt about their work.
And really when you care and love your work, it doesn't work
(07:45):
for you. You know, when you really have a
passion and care about things, you come in every day excited.
You're, you have an open mind about things.
You want to be there and be present.
So, and, and I think it's a privilege to do that both
personally, it's a privilege to be in a workplace where you have
that, but also for me, it's a privilege too.
And part of that was the supportand helping my spouse that I
(08:07):
could work in the public sector.These career goals are usually
in conjunction with what's goingon in your personal life too.
Who is there to support you? And that can include both people
helping you as you raise children or helping you figure
out together at different pointswho is the primary breadwinner,
who's the primary caregiver. And so all of those things, as
(08:29):
we talked about what are career goals, those things change and
adapt as you think about that. So I was able to follow some of
the passion I had to be a prosecutor because I had a, a
great spouse who we together could financially manage.
So I think it it was that allowed me and gave me the
privilege to be able to be a voice for victims of crime
because when I went to become a prosecutor, I'd barely made a
(08:50):
living wage. I could barely and I eventually
laughed because I couldn't afford daycare.
My day cross were essentially higher than what I was being
paid when you combined like my, you know, gas driving pickup and
some of the, you know, dry cleaning for your clothes or
your suits. It actually I was I was losing
money and that's ultimately, sadly why I left and that job
(09:12):
along with we moved back up to Canada, which is where I was
born and raised and for family reasons.
But so I think, you know, there are a lot of factors that go
into it, but I have some great moments.
I mean, one of the things I always learned is, you know,
don't you know, know all your questions, do your homework, you
know, never ask that question where there's a surprise answer.
And I have trouble with that a little bit because I'm always
(09:32):
curious and ask more questions. So I really had to learn how to
restrain, do my homework and learn how not to ask that
question, that something cross examination, for example.
So same thing here. Do your homework, know
everything, go into a meeting, be open minded, but go into a
meeting or a file and have done,you know, there's no shortcuts
(09:53):
to the hard work and preparation.
So know the answer to the question before it's asked, but
be open minded about the answer.Even in this interview, like how
we're talking that it may take you in a different direction.
So listen and go in that direction if need be, but as I
said, there's no shortcuts for hard work and the preparation
and knowing the answers to the question before you ask them.
(10:14):
And that's a cross examination role that any or assistant
District Attorney will tell you,but something I really learned
while I was there. Well, that sounds so
interesting. You did mention this transition
from being a prosecutor in the US to come and living in
practicing in Canada. How was that like in the
beginning? Absolutely.
And I think this is where it comes in, where especially as a
female lawyer, like always trying to balance having
(10:37):
children and a family. If you do choose to go and not
direction and have children and also balance having a career and
staying in your careers. I'm your back to Canada for
family reasons. My husband and I moved up here.
We had our my daughter at that time who was three.
One of the issues I had is we were both litigators.
And so I was a prosecutor down in the States.
My husband was in litigation andwe we were struggling to
(10:59):
navigate that together if we were both in court, not having
backup if our daughter was sick.So again, your career goals
shifting and so my goal shifted that I wanted to continue work,
do something interesting, but I could we couldn't sustain too
litigators and having a small child.
So I started looking around and I came and ended up being
adjudicator. I interviewed a number of places
(11:19):
and ended up working as adjudicator, the Workplace
Safety Insurance Appeals Tribunal, and I had grown up as
a child. My father was a labour
arbitrator, so I really loved labour.
I'd really liked it as a, you know, I sort of grew up with it.
It was comfortable place for me.And when I was, you know, 8 or
9, my dad would come to the, youknow, Friday night, we had
(11:41):
Shabbat dinners where my family is Jewish.
We had about dinners and my dad would give us cases to and
present to us and we sort of discuss and argue.
So he'd say something like, you know, this long term employee
was fired because she stole, youknow, a $2.00, you know, a $2.00
item from the grocery shelves. What are the interests of the
employers in maintaining, you know, a place where people can't
(12:01):
steal? But what about an individual who
maybe doesn't have job prospects, is in their 50s and,
you know, has worked for 25 years at a store?
What would you do? So we were always challenged
like that, which is maybe why I ended up in law.
But then when it came back up toCanada sort of labour, I had
this opportunity to go work at this tribunal, work in where the
issues were, workplace injuries and return to work issues.
(12:23):
And so that was a natural home, but it was also partly based on
my personal circumstances of navigating being a mother and A2
parents who were working. And so that became my home for
13 years and I loved that work. And again, same thing, the
opportunity to change and impactpeople's lives and to think
about people's lives and hear people's lives and be invited
into people's lives. And often in a situation where
(12:44):
nobody wanted to be, which is someone, you know, had lost the
opportunity in a workplace because of a workplace injury
that prevented them from returning to work or how could
they return work. So again, sort of marrying
labour with passion or thinking about how people function in
day-to-day life and how things impact them, whether it be crime
or a labour in an injury on a workplace.
(13:06):
And how do we as lawyers within this or Judicator ours or people
within the system, how do we think about the systems and the
workplace and get to where we need to go?
Preserving the integrity of the system, but also recognizing the
individual. I'm thinking about how the that
individuals impacted. So even today in our work today,
when we work on collective agreements, we think about
(13:26):
day-to-day, we hear about affordability issues, whether
people how they can afford to their rent, things we see in the
paper. But then we see that in real
time, you know how if people need to go to food banks, what
they're making minimum wage, whether they're working
conditions. So just always thinking both
macro, like the integrity of thesystem, like collective
(13:47):
bargaining as a freedom of association charter right
between unions and employers, but also the micro level.
How is this person day-to-day managing on their wages?
What is their workplace like? What are their conditions of
work? And so I had the privilege to do
that at the tribunal and then here.
And so moving from criminal to labour was a huge learning curve
from an administrative law. And again, as I said, there's no
(14:09):
shortcuts for just doing your work.
Head down, working hard, learning the statutes, learning
the laws, thinking about the issues, learning the policies,
but maintaining sort of that idea of like thinking about the
larger integrity of systems, buthow does any individual fit
within that system and, and how does that work within the law?
So I think I've been privilege to do that in criminal, in
(14:29):
Labour and so while the fields were completely different, the
ideas were the same for me. Well, that's fantastic.
I, I find it fascinating how youknow, you find those same skills
or the same backbone of being a good professional being really
the same regardless of which area of the law you end up being
at. So I love that you commented on
(14:50):
that. And we did start, start this
conversation, talk a little bit about talking a little bit about
your experience and, and your current role as well.
You're now the director of Dispute Resolution Services and
you did mention a few of the things that you do through the
podcast today. But I'm just wondering what does
a day-to-day basis look like foryou?
(15:11):
So the best part about my job isthere is no day-to-day.
Every day is different. And that's one thing I love and
some people are maybe thrive on having like knowing every day
they're doing similar things. But I think people in my job,
mediators, labour negotiators thrive on things being thrown at
you, being able to think on yourfeet and everything being
different. So I might be one day in a
(15:32):
labour negotiation with a union and an employer negotiating the
terms of their collective agreement.
So negotiating wages, benefits, vacation days.
I might another day be dealing with a legal objections, legal
issues. Another day, I'll be getting a
call from a mediator and talkingthrough strike issues.
How do we bring a party, a groupback who are out on strike?
(15:54):
On Friday, I spoke to someone about a group that's on strike
in the province and thinking about and talking through how do
we think about getting them backoff strike and how do we work
the employer and the union to think about what next steps look
like? On any given day, I might be
talking to someone about how to manage or navigate the politics
(16:15):
of the union or how to navigate the politics of an employer in
terms of US mediating or trying to get to a deal but addressing
sort of political issues. I had one file where the
politics were someone would cometo me and say, you know, we're
trying to work towards this. And another person on the same
team would come to me and say, well, you were trying to work
towards this, but don't tell theother person.
(16:36):
So again, also trying to behind the scenes figure out how do we
put these pieces together to getthrough the same goal, But
sometimes people have different interests.
So another day I might be also dealing with just as the
director of a team working on, we're working on digitizing,
working with my Co director on digitizing our department, which
is mostly done right. What does that look like?
(16:56):
How do you integrate labour law into the digital reality?
We'll be talking about, you know, summer internships,
dealing with HR, someone who's sick, who goes out sick, How do
we manage their workload? So what our pilot projects
thinking about what are things we can do connecting or reaching
out to stakeholders to figure out to do problem solving.
We get an e-mail, there's a big issue like calling and reaching
(17:18):
out to that stakeholder. How do we problem solve?
So another big thing I I talked to young lawyers about is you
have the law and you have the practical.
So how do you marry those two, right?
And sometimes, you know, people just want to focus on the law
and some people want to focus onthe practical, but how do you
Mary the law and practical? So in terms of efficiency?
So example, someone calls and says, well, I know I have to go
(17:38):
through this step, this step, this step.
And we'll say, OK, you can go through this in this step, but
maybe we can find a way to consolidate some of those steps
for you as a stakeholder. So we always reach out to our
stakeholders for problem solving.
People e-mail us about issues orproblems and we try to with it.
We have sort of a within our group, like a 24 hour policy.
So often people say to me, I never get a call from someone in
(17:59):
government or I've never spoken to the director.
But I think problem solving is alot of what I do, just in
different layers and levels. But that's one of the things I
love about my day-to-day job is I'm essentially doing problem
solving. But it can be a legal issue, it
can be a labour issue, it can bea strike issue, it can be a, a,
a term of a collector group agreement.
(18:20):
It can be an objection to an appointment of a mediator,
objection to We work with the arbitrator community.
So I think that's what I really like is that every day is
slightly. Different.
That sounds fantastic. And you did mention a few
examples of the disputes that you help and solve, but I'm
wondering if there is, you know,a few specific types that you
(18:41):
deal most with. And then also, how do you, you
know, use your team to resolve them the most fair and efficient
way possible? So I think the best answer to
that is so in order to legally strike in Ontario, you have to
come through my division. So what we do, an example would
be parties would come to us to help them negotiate or mediate.
(19:03):
Most collective agreements expire and a collective
agreement is essentially a contract about your conditions
of work. So it would include your wages,
your benefits, your pay, your grievance procedure.
And in Ontario, 72% of the public sector is unionized, so
we will deal with any large public sector union.
So that would include teachers, nurses, it'll include all your
(19:24):
municipalities or unionized. So any city would be, you know,
city of Toronto, city of Oakville, city of Richmond Hill,
City of Hamilton, our united. And so we work to resolve the
terms of the collective agreement.
And sometimes that can involve, as you said, strikes that
parties cannot come to an agreement about the terms of the
agreement and the union will go out on strike and the import,
(19:45):
the employer will lock out the union nuts.
Part of our processes and part of what we do day-to-day.
So we might be working with our job large group.
It could be a large municipalityand all the workers for that
municipality, or it could be a car manufacturer or small
company. And we had one file where the
mediator. One of the big issues was that
(20:06):
the union was a small group of people, but they wanted a coffee
maker. That was they wanted it in their
collective agreement, but we canalso deal with a municipality
that might have 20,000 employeesand the the issues of like what
are their work conditions. So every day it's resolving
disputes, but essentially at theend of the day, the dispute is
(20:27):
how do you get or persuade two parties that they have a similar
interest or to minimize or avoida work disruption, whether it be
a lockout by the employer of theemployees or a strike by the
union members. So a lot of what we do on a
day-to-day basis is that disputeresolution which we talked
about. How do you resolve disputes
which can be anything as small as like a coffee maker to very
(20:50):
real issues that you will have seen in strikes across the
province or threats of strikes across the province that you
would see in the newspaper on a daily or weekly basis.
So you know, last year Metro, the grocery store went on
strike. So working with those parties to
think about how do we bring people back off strike and then
also to prevent strikes or work disruptions on a day-to-day
(21:11):
basis that may be in the news ormay not be in the news.
And that can be with bus driversor it can be with teachers or as
I said, it can be with a small middle car company or
manufacturing company. Or I worked on a file that was
they made airplane parts for airplanes and they provided
airplane parts, for example, to the Government of Canada.
(21:32):
So you know that file may not have made it in the news, but we
worked with them to minimize or prevent and work disruption in.
That sounds incredible. And if I may ask a final
question to finish our episode today.
Sandra, you've been involved in so many different fronts, but
also in training new generationsof adjudicators, speaking at the
(21:53):
Canadian Bar Association and many other organizations.
If I may ask you, what kind of advice would you give to those
entering the legal profession today?
So I once I saw a leader speak about this and I've sort of
adopted some of her thoughts andthen adopted it to my own.
And so I'm going to sort of giveyou my four or five because I
heard you ask this question and other podcasts.
(22:15):
And so I thought a little bit about it and you sent me this
question and I don't have. So I'll give you what I I think
or what my best lessons are, butI think everyone has to come to
find their own lessons for themselves.
But I'll give you some of my best lessons, which are one to
surround yourself with smart people.
Always surround yourself with smart people and to protect
them, to look out for them, surround yourself with smart
people and then go to bat for them, advocate for them and
(22:37):
listen to them and have them challenge you.
My second is to collaborate. Not just collaborate, like can
you look at this or review this,but really collaborate from the
ground, throw it an idea and have them really push back on
what does that look like? What does that mean?
How do we manifest this? So collaborate in a really
genuine a deep way with different people and different
ideas. Third is I really say, I mean, I
(22:59):
know I've heard people on some of your podcasts and a lot of
people say do things outside your comfort zone people use or
outside your strength. I, one of the things I actually
learned and I heard this woman speak about is I actually used
to say that to people. And now I actually tell young,
young people or young lawyers, Isay actually find what you're
(23:20):
good at and keep doing it. It doesn't mean you shouldn't go
outside your comfort zone once in a while, but actually find
what you're really good at and keep doing it and get better at.
Because I think ultimately I wasgood at writing, reading,
talking, relationship building, and that's where I landed.
So I think if you figure out what you're good at and keep
(23:40):
doing it and getting better at, that's actually where you will
end up. So I now encourage people to
spend more time finding what they're good at and keep doing
it and building those strengths,then pushing themselves outside
their comfort zone. That's not to say you shouldn't,
but focus on where you're reallygood at and keep doing those
things. And then, you know, seek, and
(24:01):
this goes back a bit to collaboration, but seek diverse
perspective, ideas and personalities.
And I really do that. I really, really seek out people
who are really walk in all different kinds of life and I
listen to them, whether it be someone who works in, I work a
lot with people in construction,which is something very far from
my background, but I really seekout their opinions and thoughts
(24:22):
on things. And then I'll go talk to a
faculty member at a university if we're doing university.
And then I surround myself with different people have different
ideas and different perspectives, and I really seek
out their their thoughts. So really seek them out, but
really don't just seek them out for sort of a superficial, but
to really understand and hear and challenge yourself because
(24:43):
then you'll be a better leader if you have diverse opinions,
diverse ideas. And I'm sure you've heard that
on the podcast from lots of people, but really do it and
really doing it and surrounding yourself by people who really
are different from you is something that can be a
challenge for many people. It's really easy to, let's say,
go to a law firm and be surrounded by lawyers.
And I really challenge myself tobe surrounded by, you know,
(25:04):
younger people, older people, people are in law, people are in
business, people are in construction, people who are and
blue collar, white collar, pink collar, however you want to call
it. Because that really makes me
better at what I do. And the last thing I would say
is really have fun and enjoy. You know, we laugh a lot in this
job. It's really hard.
This job, we do really hard things where in people's
workplaces doing very, very hardthings everyday, hearing people
(25:27):
can't afford to eat, they may lose their paychecks if they go
on strike and employer can't afford our losing business,
can't afford to maintain their business out of certain level.
But we spend a lot of time with each other sort of finding humor
at things in life that happen and laughing and on my team and
joking about each other and our strengths, our weaknesses.
(25:48):
And I think when you love and care about your work, you can
find that. But that also allows you to be
stronger, that you take your work very seriously, but you
don't always take yourself so seriously.
That's sort of a long way of saying enjoy and laugh at
yourself a little bit and laugh at sometimes the circumstances
you find yourself in. But also enjoy, really enjoy
what you do and have fun. I love that.
(26:10):
I really appreciate you taking the time to sharing those
insights. I feel like they can definitely
inspire a lot of our listeners and, and especially like what
you said about focusing on what you're good at.
I, I, I really resonate with that sometimes.
I, I've heard about schools thatsometimes at school, if you
don't do good at math, your parents will put you in extra
(26:30):
math classes so you can level up.
But then sometimes you're so good at the arts or literature
and you don't get any extra workon that.
So it, it might be just the key to focus on what you're good at.
And I just love that you broughtthat up.
Thank. You, yeah.
And I see you, Clado. I see you're really good at
reaching out to people in networking and relationship
building and thinking about people and how people function.
(26:51):
And I would say, do you keep doing that?
Like find in the law where you're good at that, you know,
you'll figure out the law piece,you'll do that hard work.
But you have a skill that I really see and I saw and partly
why I reached out to you. So I would say keep doing that,
whatever that is, whether it's project building or connecting
to people or relationship building, because that is your,
(27:12):
and I heard someone say superpower on one of your other
podcasts, but that is one of your superpowers.
So again, going back to what I said is keep doing what you're
good at and build that. And you already have that in in
so many in such a large amount and you will be successful if
you continue to do that and identify that for yourself.
I really appreciate it. Thank you so much, and thank you
(27:32):
for taking the time to be in thepodcast today.
Thank you, our listeners, for listening to this episode, and
we'll see you on the next one. Thank you.
Hello, everybody. Welcome to another episode of
Studying Law around the World. Today we have the opportunity to
receive Sandra Shine. She's the Director of Dispute
Resolution Services here in Ontario.
She has an extensive experience in dispute resolution
adjudication and management in both the private and public
sectors. Thank you so much for joining us
(00:35):
today, Sandra. Good afternoon.
Thank you for having me on this podcast and I look forward to
our conversation today. Amazing.
Well, choose start our conversation today.
I I'd love to hear a little bit about yourself.
You could you could introduce yourself short, short which you
are listeners and we can just right after that jump into your
conversation. Absolutely.
(00:55):
So you've indicated my name and my title, and I do work here for
the Ontario province and I work as the Director of Dispute
Resolution Services in the Ministry of Labour, Immigration,
Training and Skills Development.And in my job, what my team does
is we provide mediation assistance to unions and
employers to assist with collective bargaining across the
province. So in more layman's terms, I
(01:18):
would say that we work with parties to prevent work
stoppages and labour disruptionsacross the province in the
private and public sector and assist parties to get to their
collective agreements. It's every day, it's a different
workplace and different parties.And that's what makes it really
interesting is we get to share and be art of people's
(01:39):
workplaces across the province, whether it be a large workplace
like a large private manufacturer or we get to be in
a municipality, at a school board, involved in transit,
involved in medical facility. And we're really privileged that
people share their lives and their workplaces with us every
day. But that's also what makes our
work very, very interesting is we get to be part of working
(02:00):
with parties, unions and employers to come to agreements
that define and explain what theterms of their work conditions
will be over the course of theircollective agreement.
That sounds so interesting. And as you know, in our, in our
podcast, a lot of the focus is to get out to listen to the
story of our guests. So beyond, you know, hearing
about what they do these days, we love hearing a little bit
(02:22):
about how they get you to where they are.
And we'd love to learn a little more about your trajectory in
that sense. Sandra, So I know you were
involved being Cardozo School ofLaw, Law Review, and you also
interned at the Manhattan DA's office.
And I was wondering how did those early experiences have
influenced your career, your career goals?
(02:44):
So I think, I think it would be actually sort of not quite
accurate as a career goals because I think a lot of things
happened as I went along by opportunity, interest, passion
was being opened, doors being closed.
So I think my career goals were perhaps one thing, but it's
come, you know, my trajectory has changed overtime based on a
(03:05):
lot of factors. Sometimes there's personal
factors, wanting to balance and having children and work as a
lawyer. Some of it was interest and
passion for the work. So I think my goals changed
depending on what stage of life and what opportunities.
And as I said, what doors open, but also what doors closed.
And I've heard that in some of your other guest podcasts as
well. And I think that's probably one
(03:25):
of the themes of all your podcasts is that sometimes
opportunities present in your career goals adjust and change
as you go. I am interned at the Manhattan
District Attorney's Office when I was in law school and I found
a real passion for criminal law,really loved criminal law,
really liked working in the prosecution side where you could
be a voice for victims of crime and sort of advocate for victims
(03:48):
of crime. But what I also saw at the
district attorney's office was also a real belief in the
integrity of the justice system.So not a determination to win,
but a determination to do justice.
And sometimes doing justice means you lose.
And sometimes I felt that I really valued that.
So when I graduated from law school, I actually couldn't go
(04:10):
to the Manhattan DA's office because you had to be an
American citizen, and I was a Canadian, so I wasn't able to do
that. So I went to a large law firm in
New York City where I actually learned from some of the best
lawyers. So while I didn't love the work
that I was doing, I didn't feel passion about.
I wasn't really a voice for anyone other than, you know, one
large company against another. But what I did take out of that
(04:32):
experience is how to be a reallygood lawyer, how to be really
thoughtful, how to really read the law, how to work really
hard, understand details, a strong work ethic, and how to be
smart about things. And so I took that experience
and when I moved to Massachusetts, I applied to
become a prosecutor. They didn't have the same rule
there that you had to be an American citizen.
(04:53):
So I sort of didn't let go of mydream to working criminal law
and be a prosecutor and be a voice for victims of crime.
I actually continue took that with me and when I was able to
have the opportunity to go work as a prosecutor, I did so I went
to Boston, MA and worked as a prosecutor there.
And again, really felt like the integrity of what people did
(05:16):
there, which was not just being the voice for victims of crime.
And I did a lot of work with domestic violence victims, but
also wanting to really preserve the integrity of the system that
the justice system, it's important for all of society
that justice works in a fair andequitable way.
Meaning sometimes there isn't enough evidence to convict.
I may know that this has occurred, but the system is
(05:38):
important for all of us to main the integrity to maintain the
integrity of the law. And so I really saw that in the
people I worked with, and that became sort of a passion for me,
but also made that job really important to me as well, that
our goals were both to prosecuteand advocate, but also to make
sure the system maintained its integrity.
(05:59):
And I think that integrity in the system is something I've
taken with me and all my jobs across the way, which is really
believing in the integrity of a system, but also making change
where you can to build integrityinto a system or preserve
integrity or to enhance integrity in a system.
So I think we do that every day in my job now in labour, where
the integrity of the system, where collective bargaining,
(06:19):
employers and unions get to speak and negotiate and discuss
and argue and sort of sometimes Duke it out over what is a fair
workplace look like, what's equitable in a workplace.
And help parties together come to make the best system that
they possibly can within the constraints that there may be,
whether that's financial, workforce opportunities,
location, strength of the parties.
(06:41):
So I think that's something thatI took from my early days that I
tried to preserve and have worked for in all the different
parts of my career. Well, that sounds amazing.
First of all, something that I, that I love and that has been a
theme in the podcast is really hearing what people can do with
a law degree. It's really opportunities are
limitless. And there's of course a lot of a
(07:03):
lot that happens between, you know, having that dream job or
having that career you always expected to.
But also I just find it fascinating the wide range of
things you can do. And it's being amazing to meet
so many lawyers that have reallymade those plans come true.
And considering these experienceyou just mentioned about being
(07:24):
an assistant District Attorney in Massachusetts, I'd love to
hear a little bit, you know, if you have some stories or or you
know, some points about what aresome of your most formative
moments from that time? I think a few things, one is
just the passion with which people around me cared about
their work and felt about their work.
And really when you care and love your work, it doesn't work
(07:45):
for you. You know, when you really have a
passion and care about things, you come in every day excited.
You're, you have an open mind about things.
You want to be there and be present.
So, and, and I think it's a privilege to do that both
personally, it's a privilege to be in a workplace where you have
that, but also for me, it's a privilege too.
And part of that was the supportand helping my spouse that I
(08:07):
could work in the public sector.These career goals are usually
in conjunction with what's goingon in your personal life too.
Who is there to support you? And that can include both people
helping you as you raise children or helping you figure
out together at different pointswho is the primary breadwinner,
who's the primary caregiver. And so all of those things, as
(08:29):
we talked about what are career goals, those things change and
adapt as you think about that. So I was able to follow some of
the passion I had to be a prosecutor because I had a, a
great spouse who we together could financially manage.
So I think it it was that allowed me and gave me the
privilege to be able to be a voice for victims of crime
because when I went to become a prosecutor, I'd barely made a
(08:50):
living wage. I could barely and I eventually
laughed because I couldn't afford daycare.
My day cross were essentially higher than what I was being
paid when you combined like my, you know, gas driving pickup and
some of the, you know, dry cleaning for your clothes or
your suits. It actually I was I was losing
money and that's ultimately, sadly why I left and that job
(09:12):
along with we moved back up to Canada, which is where I was
born and raised and for family reasons.
But so I think, you know, there are a lot of factors that go
into it, but I have some great moments.
I mean, one of the things I always learned is, you know,
don't you know, know all your questions, do your homework, you
know, never ask that question where there's a surprise answer.
And I have trouble with that a little bit because I'm always
(09:32):
curious and ask more questions. So I really had to learn how to
restrain, do my homework and learn how not to ask that
question, that something cross examination, for example.
So same thing here. Do your homework, know
everything, go into a meeting, be open minded, but go into a
meeting or a file and have done,you know, there's no shortcuts
(09:53):
to the hard work and preparation.
So know the answer to the question before it's asked, but
be open minded about the answer.Even in this interview, like how
we're talking that it may take you in a different direction.
So listen and go in that direction if need be, but as I
said, there's no shortcuts for hard work and the preparation
and knowing the answers to the question before you ask them.
(10:14):
And that's a cross examination role that any or assistant
District Attorney will tell you,but something I really learned
while I was there. Well, that sounds so
interesting. You did mention this transition
from being a prosecutor in the US to come and living in
practicing in Canada. How was that like in the
beginning? Absolutely.
And I think this is where it comes in, where especially as a
female lawyer, like always trying to balance having
(10:37):
children and a family. If you do choose to go and not
direction and have children and also balance having a career and
staying in your careers. I'm your back to Canada for
family reasons. My husband and I moved up here.
We had our my daughter at that time who was three.
One of the issues I had is we were both litigators.
And so I was a prosecutor down in the States.
My husband was in litigation andwe we were struggling to
(10:59):
navigate that together if we were both in court, not having
backup if our daughter was sick.So again, your career goals
shifting and so my goal shifted that I wanted to continue work,
do something interesting, but I could we couldn't sustain too
litigators and having a small child.
So I started looking around and I came and ended up being
adjudicator. I interviewed a number of places
(11:19):
and ended up working as adjudicator, the Workplace
Safety Insurance Appeals Tribunal, and I had grown up as
a child. My father was a labour
arbitrator, so I really loved labour.
I'd really liked it as a, you know, I sort of grew up with it.
It was comfortable place for me.And when I was, you know, 8 or
9, my dad would come to the, youknow, Friday night, we had
(11:41):
Shabbat dinners where my family is Jewish.
We had about dinners and my dad would give us cases to and
present to us and we sort of discuss and argue.
So he'd say something like, you know, this long term employee
was fired because she stole, youknow, a $2.00, you know, a $2.00
item from the grocery shelves. What are the interests of the
employers in maintaining, you know, a place where people can't
(12:01):
steal? But what about an individual who
maybe doesn't have job prospects, is in their 50s and,
you know, has worked for 25 years at a store?
What would you do? So we were always challenged
like that, which is maybe why I ended up in law.
But then when it came back up toCanada sort of labour, I had
this opportunity to go work at this tribunal, work in where the
issues were, workplace injuries and return to work issues.
(12:23):
And so that was a natural home, but it was also partly based on
my personal circumstances of navigating being a mother and A2
parents who were working. And so that became my home for
13 years and I loved that work. And again, same thing, the
opportunity to change and impactpeople's lives and to think
about people's lives and hear people's lives and be invited
into people's lives. And often in a situation where
(12:44):
nobody wanted to be, which is someone, you know, had lost the
opportunity in a workplace because of a workplace injury
that prevented them from returning to work or how could
they return work. So again, sort of marrying
labour with passion or thinking about how people function in
day-to-day life and how things impact them, whether it be crime
or a labour in an injury on a workplace.
(13:06):
And how do we as lawyers within this or Judicator ours or people
within the system, how do we think about the systems and the
workplace and get to where we need to go?
Preserving the integrity of the system, but also recognizing the
individual. I'm thinking about how the that
individuals impacted. So even today in our work today,
when we work on collective agreements, we think about
(13:26):
day-to-day, we hear about affordability issues, whether
people how they can afford to their rent, things we see in the
paper. But then we see that in real
time, you know how if people need to go to food banks, what
they're making minimum wage, whether they're working
conditions. So just always thinking both
macro, like the integrity of thesystem, like collective
(13:47):
bargaining as a freedom of association charter right
between unions and employers, but also the micro level.
How is this person day-to-day managing on their wages?
What is their workplace like? What are their conditions of
work? And so I had the privilege to do
that at the tribunal and then here.
And so moving from criminal to labour was a huge learning curve
from an administrative law. And again, as I said, there's no
(14:09):
shortcuts for just doing your work.
Head down, working hard, learning the statutes, learning
the laws, thinking about the issues, learning the policies,
but maintaining sort of that idea of like thinking about the
larger integrity of systems, buthow does any individual fit
within that system and, and how does that work within the law?
So I think I've been privilege to do that in criminal, in
(14:29):
Labour and so while the fields were completely different, the
ideas were the same for me. Well, that's fantastic.
I, I find it fascinating how youknow, you find those same skills
or the same backbone of being a good professional being really
the same regardless of which area of the law you end up being
at. So I love that you commented on
(14:50):
that. And we did start, start this
conversation, talk a little bit about talking a little bit about
your experience and, and your current role as well.
You're now the director of Dispute Resolution Services and
you did mention a few of the things that you do through the
podcast today. But I'm just wondering what does
a day-to-day basis look like foryou?
(15:11):
So the best part about my job isthere is no day-to-day.
Every day is different. And that's one thing I love and
some people are maybe thrive on having like knowing every day
they're doing similar things. But I think people in my job,
mediators, labour negotiators thrive on things being thrown at
you, being able to think on yourfeet and everything being
different. So I might be one day in a
(15:32):
labour negotiation with a union and an employer negotiating the
terms of their collective agreement.
So negotiating wages, benefits, vacation days.
I might another day be dealing with a legal objections, legal
issues. Another day, I'll be getting a
call from a mediator and talkingthrough strike issues.
How do we bring a party, a groupback who are out on strike?
(15:54):
On Friday, I spoke to someone about a group that's on strike
in the province and thinking about and talking through how do
we think about getting them backoff strike and how do we work
the employer and the union to think about what next steps look
like? On any given day, I might be
talking to someone about how to manage or navigate the politics
(16:15):
of the union or how to navigate the politics of an employer in
terms of US mediating or trying to get to a deal but addressing
sort of political issues. I had one file where the
politics were someone would cometo me and say, you know, we're
trying to work towards this. And another person on the same
team would come to me and say, well, you were trying to work
towards this, but don't tell theother person.
(16:36):
So again, also trying to behind the scenes figure out how do we
put these pieces together to getthrough the same goal, But
sometimes people have different interests.
So another day I might be also dealing with just as the
director of a team working on, we're working on digitizing,
working with my Co director on digitizing our department, which
is mostly done right. What does that look like?
(16:56):
How do you integrate labour law into the digital reality?
We'll be talking about, you know, summer internships,
dealing with HR, someone who's sick, who goes out sick, How do
we manage their workload? So what our pilot projects
thinking about what are things we can do connecting or reaching
out to stakeholders to figure out to do problem solving.
We get an e-mail, there's a big issue like calling and reaching
(17:18):
out to that stakeholder. How do we problem solve?
So another big thing I I talked to young lawyers about is you
have the law and you have the practical.
So how do you marry those two, right?
And sometimes, you know, people just want to focus on the law
and some people want to focus onthe practical, but how do you
Mary the law and practical? So in terms of efficiency?
So example, someone calls and says, well, I know I have to go
(17:38):
through this step, this step, this step.
And we'll say, OK, you can go through this in this step, but
maybe we can find a way to consolidate some of those steps
for you as a stakeholder. So we always reach out to our
stakeholders for problem solving.
People e-mail us about issues orproblems and we try to with it.
We have sort of a within our group, like a 24 hour policy.
So often people say to me, I never get a call from someone in
(17:59):
government or I've never spoken to the director.
But I think problem solving is alot of what I do, just in
different layers and levels. But that's one of the things I
love about my day-to-day job is I'm essentially doing problem
solving. But it can be a legal issue, it
can be a labour issue, it can bea strike issue, it can be a, a,
a term of a collector group agreement.
(18:20):
It can be an objection to an appointment of a mediator,
objection to We work with the arbitrator community.
So I think that's what I really like is that every day is
slightly. Different.
That sounds fantastic. And you did mention a few
examples of the disputes that you help and solve, but I'm
wondering if there is, you know,a few specific types that you
(18:41):
deal most with. And then also, how do you, you
know, use your team to resolve them the most fair and efficient
way possible? So I think the best answer to
that is so in order to legally strike in Ontario, you have to
come through my division. So what we do, an example would
be parties would come to us to help them negotiate or mediate.
(19:03):
Most collective agreements expire and a collective
agreement is essentially a contract about your conditions
of work. So it would include your wages,
your benefits, your pay, your grievance procedure.
And in Ontario, 72% of the public sector is unionized, so
we will deal with any large public sector union.
So that would include teachers, nurses, it'll include all your
(19:24):
municipalities or unionized. So any city would be, you know,
city of Toronto, city of Oakville, city of Richmond Hill,
City of Hamilton, our united. And so we work to resolve the
terms of the collective agreement.
And sometimes that can involve, as you said, strikes that
parties cannot come to an agreement about the terms of the
agreement and the union will go out on strike and the import,
(19:45):
the employer will lock out the union nuts.
Part of our processes and part of what we do day-to-day.
So we might be working with our job large group.
It could be a large municipalityand all the workers for that
municipality, or it could be a car manufacturer or small
company. And we had one file where the
mediator. One of the big issues was that
(20:06):
the union was a small group of people, but they wanted a coffee
maker. That was they wanted it in their
collective agreement, but we canalso deal with a municipality
that might have 20,000 employeesand the the issues of like what
are their work conditions. So every day it's resolving
disputes, but essentially at theend of the day, the dispute is
(20:27):
how do you get or persuade two parties that they have a similar
interest or to minimize or avoida work disruption, whether it be
a lockout by the employer of theemployees or a strike by the
union members. So a lot of what we do on a
day-to-day basis is that disputeresolution which we talked
about. How do you resolve disputes
which can be anything as small as like a coffee maker to very
(20:50):
real issues that you will have seen in strikes across the
province or threats of strikes across the province that you
would see in the newspaper on a daily or weekly basis.
So you know, last year Metro, the grocery store went on
strike. So working with those parties to
think about how do we bring people back off strike and then
also to prevent strikes or work disruptions on a day-to-day
(21:11):
basis that may be in the news ormay not be in the news.
And that can be with bus driversor it can be with teachers or as
I said, it can be with a small middle car company or
manufacturing company. Or I worked on a file that was
they made airplane parts for airplanes and they provided
airplane parts, for example, to the Government of Canada.
(21:32):
So you know that file may not have made it in the news, but we
worked with them to minimize or prevent and work disruption in.
That sounds incredible. And if I may ask a final
question to finish our episode today.
Sandra, you've been involved in so many different fronts, but
also in training new generationsof adjudicators, speaking at the
(21:53):
Canadian Bar Association and many other organizations.
If I may ask you, what kind of advice would you give to those
entering the legal profession today?
So I once I saw a leader speak about this and I've sort of
adopted some of her thoughts andthen adopted it to my own.
And so I'm going to sort of giveyou my four or five because I
heard you ask this question and other podcasts.
(22:15):
And so I thought a little bit about it and you sent me this
question and I don't have. So I'll give you what I I think
or what my best lessons are, butI think everyone has to come to
find their own lessons for themselves.
But I'll give you some of my best lessons, which are one to
surround yourself with smart people.
Always surround yourself with smart people and to protect
them, to look out for them, surround yourself with smart
people and then go to bat for them, advocate for them and
(22:37):
listen to them and have them challenge you.
My second is to collaborate. Not just collaborate, like can
you look at this or review this,but really collaborate from the
ground, throw it an idea and have them really push back on
what does that look like? What does that mean?
How do we manifest this? So collaborate in a really
genuine a deep way with different people and different
ideas. Third is I really say, I mean, I
(22:59):
know I've heard people on some of your podcasts and a lot of
people say do things outside your comfort zone people use or
outside your strength. I, one of the things I actually
learned and I heard this woman speak about is I actually used
to say that to people. And now I actually tell young,
young people or young lawyers, Isay actually find what you're
(23:20):
good at and keep doing it. It doesn't mean you shouldn't go
outside your comfort zone once in a while, but actually find
what you're really good at and keep doing it and get better at.
Because I think ultimately I wasgood at writing, reading,
talking, relationship building, and that's where I landed.
So I think if you figure out what you're good at and keep
(23:40):
doing it and getting better at, that's actually where you will
end up. So I now encourage people to
spend more time finding what they're good at and keep doing
it and building those strengths,then pushing themselves outside
their comfort zone. That's not to say you shouldn't,
but focus on where you're reallygood at and keep doing those
things. And then, you know, seek, and
(24:01):
this goes back a bit to collaboration, but seek diverse
perspective, ideas and personalities.
And I really do that. I really, really seek out people
who are really walk in all different kinds of life and I
listen to them, whether it be someone who works in, I work a
lot with people in construction,which is something very far from
my background, but I really seekout their opinions and thoughts
(24:22):
on things. And then I'll go talk to a
faculty member at a university if we're doing university.
And then I surround myself with different people have different
ideas and different perspectives, and I really seek
out their their thoughts. So really seek them out, but
really don't just seek them out for sort of a superficial, but
to really understand and hear and challenge yourself because
(24:43):
then you'll be a better leader if you have diverse opinions,
diverse ideas. And I'm sure you've heard that
on the podcast from lots of people, but really do it and
really doing it and surrounding yourself by people who really
are different from you is something that can be a
challenge for many people. It's really easy to, let's say,
go to a law firm and be surrounded by lawyers.
And I really challenge myself tobe surrounded by, you know,
(25:04):
younger people, older people, people are in law, people are in
business, people are in construction, people who are and
blue collar, white collar, pink collar, however you want to call
it. Because that really makes me
better at what I do. And the last thing I would say
is really have fun and enjoy. You know, we laugh a lot in this
job. It's really hard.
This job, we do really hard things where in people's
workplaces doing very, very hardthings everyday, hearing people
(25:27):
can't afford to eat, they may lose their paychecks if they go
on strike and employer can't afford our losing business,
can't afford to maintain their business out of certain level.
But we spend a lot of time with each other sort of finding humor
at things in life that happen and laughing and on my team and
joking about each other and our strengths, our weaknesses.
(25:48):
And I think when you love and care about your work, you can
find that. But that also allows you to be
stronger, that you take your work very seriously, but you
don't always take yourself so seriously.
That's sort of a long way of saying enjoy and laugh at
yourself a little bit and laugh at sometimes the circumstances
you find yourself in. But also enjoy, really enjoy
what you do and have fun. I love that.
(26:10):
I really appreciate you taking the time to sharing those
insights. I feel like they can definitely
inspire a lot of our listeners and, and especially like what
you said about focusing on what you're good at.
I, I, I really resonate with that sometimes.
I, I've heard about schools thatsometimes at school, if you
don't do good at math, your parents will put you in extra
(26:30):
math classes so you can level up.
But then sometimes you're so good at the arts or literature
and you don't get any extra workon that.
So it, it might be just the key to focus on what you're good at.
And I just love that you broughtthat up.
Thank. You, yeah.
And I see you, Clado. I see you're really good at
reaching out to people in networking and relationship
building and thinking about people and how people function.
(26:51):
And I would say, do you keep doing that?
Like find in the law where you're good at that, you know,
you'll figure out the law piece,you'll do that hard work.
But you have a skill that I really see and I saw and partly
why I reached out to you. So I would say keep doing that,
whatever that is, whether it's project building or connecting
to people or relationship building, because that is your,
(27:12):
and I heard someone say superpower on one of your other
podcasts, but that is one of your superpowers.
So again, going back to what I said is keep doing what you're
good at and build that. And you already have that in in
so many in such a large amount and you will be successful if
you continue to do that and identify that for yourself.
I really appreciate it. Thank you so much, and thank you
(27:32):
for taking the time to be in thepodcast today.
Thank you, our listeners, for listening to this episode, and
we'll see you on the next one. Thank you.
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