May 23, 2025 • 20 mins
Claudio Martellacci brings a unique mix of financial expertise, legal insight, and practical experience to his role as a Partner in Valuations and Litigation Support. A Chartered Professional Accountant (CPA), Chartered Accountant (CA), and Chartered Business Valuator (CBV), Claudio has spent his career helping clients navigate complex financial matters with clarity and purpose.
Before focusing on business valuation, Claudio specialized in assurance and tax compliance for a wide range of clients, including not-for-profits and public sector organizations. Today, he applies his valuation skills to support estate planning, corporate reorganizations, shareholder disputes, and litigation involving economic loss and family law matters.
What sets Claudio apart is his genuine passion for assigning value in ways that make a real difference in people’s lives. Whether he’s preparing expert calculations for court or helping clients plan for the future, he combines technical skill with a people-first mindset.
Claudio is a proud Toronto native and loyal fan of the city’s sports teams. When he's not working, you might find him playing sports, spending time with his family, or strumming his guitar.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:14):
Hello, everybody. Welcome to another episode of
Studying Law Around the World. Today we have the opportunity to
be hosting here Claudio MartellaOcchi.
Claudio, thank you so much for joining us today.
Yeah, thank you very much for for having me.
It's it's a pleasure to meet with a fellow Claudio.
They only make good ones with that name.
That's right. Absolutely have to agree with
you on that one. And a very cool thing is that in
(00:37):
the last, you know, I, I think maybe 20-30 episodes, I
basically spoke with lawyers only in the podcast.
And I'm so glad to get the chance to speak with you today
and just start off our conversation today.
Could you introduce yourself to our audience?
Yeah, yeah, I'd love to you. So like I heard about you on on
sort of LinkedIn and and througha couple of colleagues that you
(00:58):
I think you've interviewed already and I noticed that you
kind of working away from the last night.
I thought it might be cool to speak to someone like me was
sort of law Jason right. So I am a chartered accountant.
I'm a chartered business valuator.
I did nine years and really personal property tax and audit,
most recently KPMG and then I switched over really into
evaluations and litigation support.
And so I do it a ton of litigation related work.
(01:20):
My projects in particular is probably 60% litigation support
based and we cover, you know, matrimonials, shareholder
disputes, commercial litigation,damages, quantification, a
little bit of personal injury and then the state litigation as
well, right. And so, you know, we were a lot
of a lot of different hats and we do a lot of work in that in
that space. And so I thought it might be
(01:42):
cool for you to see, you know, what an expert witness is, is
sort of like and that's what we do typically have those cases.
Well, that sounds amazing. And if I were to ask you to, you
know, kind of go back to the beginning, what first, you know,
sparkle that interest for you inaccounting and business
valuation, did you just grow up thinking you just wanted to be a
(02:03):
CPA? So bad.
Oh no, no, no, no. Far, far, far from it.
So I was a bit of a. You know.
How to, how to put it. I wasn't the most responsible
high schooler, I would say, you know, my marks weren't the
greatest, you know, in the firstcouple of years anyway.
And I sort of found my stride inGrade 11.
(02:23):
And I found it honestly in accounting class.
I, I took to it naturally, for whatever reason, I liked it.
I was very good, marks were veryhigh.
And I thought this is kind of cool.
So I took it again in grade 12. And again, I, I did enjoy it And
you know, I, I found it a bit ofa, a niche for me.
You have to be a certain level of nerds or they like accounting
and I consider myself that levelof nerd for sure.
(02:45):
And so, you know, I did well andI thought, wow, let me look into
this as a potential career path.And I, I realized that all the
doors, it remained open. And one of the reasons why I
found it so valuable is because I actually didn't know what I
wanted to do with my life for the longest time.
It probably took me longer than most, and I'll get to that a
little bit later, but probably until I was in my early 30s
(03:05):
where I figured out, Hey, this is what I really want to do,
right? And it was really the
flexibility that the CPA designation of the accounting
experience and expertise provides you because you can
really get into any field with sort of that the backdrop,
right? And that was really, I just
wanted to give myself as much flexibility to keep as many
doors and windows open as possible because, you know, it's
(03:28):
a big wide world of life and career out there.
And I didn't know what I wanted to do for the longest time.
That's that's kind of spark. It that sounds great and with,
with your career, kind of looking over, you know, your bio
online, you're LinkedIn and all of that.
I saw you have a background in, in multiple areas.
You just mentioned all the flexibility that the designation
gives you, but you know, included audits, tax compliance,
(03:50):
financial reporting. Were there any key moments that
that really shaped that career path, either confirming that you
really wanted to do that or things that, you know, I really
don't like doing that, I'm goingto do something else.
Yeah, that's a great question. Key moments when I left.
So I was working at a firm called the College Barrow Bond,
(04:10):
which was in bond and later became Bigger Tilly Bond and got
bought by KPMG where I eventually worked after.
But I was there for about 2 1/2 years and I learned a lot.
The personal corporate tax and audit, I felt like I needed to
kind of grow and I thought that the next step would be to kind
of work for, you know, in in theindustry space, not in public
(04:31):
accounting anymore, right? Work for like 1 specific
company. And so I enough and I got a job
at a company as an assistant controller and I hit and no
offence to the company or anything, it just wasn't that
wall was for me. I realized that a lot of the
things that I thought stressed me out about was accounting.
I really like a lot. I like jumping around from
project to project. I'm working on different
(04:53):
different companies files, you know, every two weeks and really
bouncing around a lot. The pace and the variety was
what made it so attracted to me and what I liked so much.
And so I didn't really realize that until I left.
Now what what the clarity was when I left and that ultimately
came back to work for KPMG was that I needed something a little
(05:13):
bit more than just audit and personal corporate tax.
I'm like, what will that something more be?
So I thought, what can I stack on to my CPA designation that
sort of builds it? And I thought of the CBV, the
CFA and the NBA and I thought NBA too similar and probably not
as as good overall compared to the CPA.
(05:34):
So that's out. And the CFI I thought
interesting, but we're probably cannibalized a lot of my
accounting experience and background.
So that doesn't really work either.
Another I looked up at the CBD and and I had done one project
because my old boss wasn't CB. We did one valuation together
and it was, it was a litigation based and I thought it was so
cool. So I dug more into it.
(05:56):
I thought, wow, this is really, really cool.
I didn't even know this existed,that accounts could do this.
And I enrolled in the program even before I started keeping G
and I called them, you know, I'll give you 3 busy seasons
here in an audit, you know, to be a good soldier.
But I want to eventually like get into the valuations
department and, and really go full on with this, like I, I
(06:17):
want to be evaluated, right. And and that was probably the,
you know, the bit of a long winded answer, but that was the
the key moment was kind of leading public accounting and
then coming back to it and realizing I want to take this
other step and move forward thatway.
Awesome. So just here to clarify for the
audience to the CBV, the Chartered Business Valuator and
(06:37):
just for tax, do you need to be already a CPA in order to do
that or how does that work? You do not actually, no.
You can go directly into the CVDstream.
There's a lot of again, congruency between CPA and CPP
needs a lot of personal attacks knowledge like it helps.
I don't think you need it, but it is definitely helpful.
A lot of accounting knowledge. Obviously when you're CV, the
(06:58):
main document you're looking at her college statements and trial
balances, right? So you know, if you're, if
you're accounting background, obviously that stuff is a little
bit more familiar to you than ifyou were or not, but it's not, I
would not say it's a requirementin any respect, right?
They started to build upon each other.
Whichever 1 you have or do first, the other one would still
(07:19):
build upon, you know, if you were to do it 2nd.
And you really don't need to do the CPA at all like if you want
to be CPD, but I wouldn't say like it would definitely sharpen
your skills if your goal, right?There's no question.
So yeah, that's that's that's what it is.
Fantastic. Well, thank you for, for
clarifying that. And the, the more we look into
it, it seems like accounting in the law overlap more and more.
(07:41):
So I'd love to hear more about Guido, the work you do, the, the
business valuation, the legal matters.
I, I was just thinking as I, as I prepared for this, right.
But I, I'm guessing for, you know, the solo lawyers, they
have to do a lot of the, a lot of the things end up being on on
their own right, like from the, the accounting for the firm
(08:02):
itself all the way to each of the cases they work on.
But I'd love to hear a little more about your role on that.
Yeah. So that's funny you mentioned
that. So obviously we're a full
service accounting firm. We do a number of, you know,
typical sort of nuts and bolts accounting services for lawyers
and professionals across the board, whether they be doctors,
dentists, but you know, lawyers,all the above.
(08:22):
But my department specifically is valuations and litigation
support, which is probably a bitof a misnomer because we really
are like quantification, really,anytime you need a number, we're
sort of, you know, the, the teamto call, so to speak.
And, and you know, often in litigation matters that the
primary concerns are financial. And when their financial, that's
where we really, you know, can help out with the flesh out that
(08:45):
sort of the answers or at least provide some sort of path
towards resolution. So for example, how we do a lot
of matrimonial work and in the matrimonial space will do, you
know, income calculations for support purposes and we'll do
valuations of businesses and even preparation or assistance
with preparing the Form 13.1 financial statements.
So that's your sort of personal financial statement when you are
(09:07):
in a divorce matter. And that combines something
called the net family property statement, which is how you
determine the division of assetsand the old ultimate
equalization between the two parties when they split, right?
So we are very well adapted and very, you know, enthusiastic
about putting us up together. And again, in order to bring
resolution, right. So we like to provide some clear
answers. That's some clear paths forward.
(09:29):
You know, things like divorce are very, very sad, very
difficult parts of people like. So from my perspective, it's
always been about taking, you know, helping someone get
through something very difficultin the way that I can.
So I appreciate that we're not, we're not, we're not saving
people's lives on the operating table here.
You know, we're not the doctors of the world really, really
making the most impact, but, youknow, in our own little way,
(09:51):
this is where we contribute to, you know, making people's lives
better, right? That's that's sort of what gives
me to it for me for that. But that's not true, right?
And then you've got like state litigation where, you know,
beneficiaries might be fighting over, you know, a certain
certain states assets, maybe allthe assets, maybe some of them
and how they were divided. States I always refer to as sort
of like a choose your own adventure.
You never really know what you're going to be asked to do
(10:13):
at the beginning within the state matter to help resolve it.
And a lot of times we work with council really for both sides to
figure out like what is the bestway to do that.
And we also work with our task consultant department, which is
sort of in lockstep with ours, to figure out a way that we can
kind of value the assets or provide a quantification of
whatever they need us to and then to distribute the way
(10:33):
that's very tax efficient. And the example I always give
is, you know, I can say this stuff is worth $5,000,000.
And then our tax department's job is to kind of make it feel
like 5 and a half, $1,000,000 for the beneficiaries, right?
By distributing things in a verytax efficient manner, right?
And that's, that's the value we try to provide to our clients.
And really one of the main things about our firm that made
(10:53):
us very attractive. We're sort of a one stop shop
for this kind of stuff, right? And not, not many firms are,
frankly, we're, we've grown a lot.
We're 100% firm now. You're probably around 18, about
4 1/2 years ago when I when I joined and yeah, just, you know,
we've been off to the races thatand a lot of growth, very dizzy,
but it's been amazing and made alot of impact I think in the
(11:15):
market and people's lives. And that sounds so great.
And I guess it ties a lot to theto the personal story that you
had on figuring out what you like.
And then once you find that veryuseful of a profession for sure,
and in a designation that you know, makes sense for you,
taking all of that into consideration, you know,
thinking about young lawyers like lost students right now who
(11:35):
are also trying to navigate different spaces and maybe even
consider a nonlinear career paths for for law.
Yeah. You mean it like a a lawyer
trying to get into that kind of thing or a lawyer engaging with
or networking with those type ofpeople that they they have sort
of that at their disposal if thecase needs?
No, at friends laughing about, you know, young, young lawyers
(11:58):
were like, you know, I don't wanna do the lawyer thing.
The law degrees very useful. I love it, but I don't think I
want to be a lawyer. And then maybe going into that,
and you know what, why don't we talk about both of the options?
Yeah, sure. I mean that's very existential
for sure. Like if you're a lawyer and you
want to get into that side of things.
I always find, you know, for whatever reason that my wife is
(12:19):
a lawyer as well. And it's like I'm allowed to say
this. A lawyer is in now don't always
I feel like light up very well together.
And that's frankly why I'm I'm employed, I think and why my my
designation is service package exists and is attractive in the
1st place. I think that lawyers should veer
more into sort of the the theology and and you know, the
(12:40):
real dirty, gritty, you know, arguments behind, you know,
positions, right, whether it be two or more on a given matter,
right. And sometimes they need that's
worried about the number they'reworried about their their own
position stance, right, based oncertain set of case facts.
Lawyers, I always feel like are more like puzzle oriented that
(13:00):
way, right? Whereas, you know, people like
us, the number, the number of guys and gals are a little bit
more structured in that regard for what we said.
Like, you know, we really want to break everything down into
the dollars spent. Sometimes Gerard detriment, like
I, I have a joke actually, but Ialways say you're on in my role,
sort of 60% account, 20% lawyer at 20% therapist, because you
(13:24):
know, with the States and and matrimonials, the reality is if
they're very emotional, right? And the lawyers will definitely
know this, obviously, like it's such emotional work.
You have such, you know, personal conversations with,
with really everyone involved because you're just you're
digging into their life, right? Like, oh, how did you split, you
know, annual expenses with your husband or wife, right?
(13:44):
You know who paid for what, you know, they pay you a salary out
of their business, right. Like a lot.
There's a lot and get, you know,even more, more in depth from
there. But I probably can't share on
the call. But you know, when you get so
ingrained with it, it's just, you know, you, you have to have
sort of a different perspective.And while the two things are
very similar, being that, you know, about litigation account,
(14:05):
you know, 60% of the time they're just very different.
Yeah. For, for I guess a lawyer that
wanted to try their hand and going through the account.
Be my guest. Feel free to reach out.
But you're probably you are probably already picked the
right? Path amazing going on the other
route we just talked about you know how do you you know build
these relationships with expert witnesses and all of that I I
(14:27):
know that there is some sort of a there must be some sort of
like an A non that close of a relationship because.
That's interesting, right? I'd love to hear about, you
know, the networking and all that.
Yeah, it's professional services, right?
So The thing is, you know, you can market it like crazy and you
can have the greatest website and LinkedIn profile, yadda
(14:49):
yadda. And the reality is word of mouth
is still sort of the number one,the networking tool and business
tool, right? And your delivery is the best
marketing that you can do. You do well on your files.
People say, yeah, you know, I'veworked, you know, in my case, I
worked with this guy Claudio, and he did a really good job on
the style of never witnessed. You know, to you that like that
(15:12):
kind of stuff is important. That's really it.
Like I would reach out to basically others in your space,
right, and say, have you worked with any good valuators you and
all of any that are recommended that you gotta, I mean, you
could do the Google search thingas well.
Like that's not like that. Well, you could read up on my
Leathan profile and you know, host of others, right, and, and
websites and things like that todo your research.
(15:33):
I encourage you to do it. If you're you're a lawyer in in
sort of the litigation space or even not even solicitor space
where you have to quantify things sometimes and it may be a
little bit over your head. Getting the accountants involved
earlier is generally better. It's less costly.
You won't spin your wheels trying to figure out what to do.
Typically get will have the answers and you can kind of lay
out the thought and it's just more efficient.
(15:55):
It's always better, you know, toprovide that that kind of full
package service to your clients.It won't always be apparent on
the first case for the second case, but ultimately, if you
kind of know what to do and givethe situation, even though it's
not your specific expertise and knowing what to do might just be
simply OHI should call, call that violator again, right?
That might be enough to get the job done and do good work for
(16:17):
your client, right? That at the end of the day is
what you're trying to do as a profession, trying to provide,
you know, good quality service and that will build your own
sort of brand and your and your business and your career from
there, right. It's easier than it than than it
really sounds. I guess you just got to do it.
It's a contact. Sport.
That's awesome. And I think it aligns the lot
with with the whole story you'vebeen telling us about how you
(16:39):
got to where you are today. And maybe even is that your
personal belief? If you were, you know, to tell
yourself from, you know, 10 years ago, just try it out, see
if you like it. Is that what you'd recommend?
Yeah, 100%. Like you just gotta do it.
You know, It's not, it's a bit related to sort of imposter
syndrome where people always feel like, you know, they're,
(17:00):
they shouldn't be in the role ofthey're in or they don't deserve
it. You know, if you if you
challenge yourself from life, you always kind of feel like
that at some degree, right? You almost should feel like
that, right? Because that's how you know
you're growing. If you're sort of in unchartered
waters a bit like, you know, you're expanding your horizons,
you're getting smarter, You don't you feel it yet or you're
(17:20):
not so confident, right? And that's not to say like it's
not really fake it till you makeit.
No, if you're a diligent professional, you do the work to
better understand something. Everything is a puzzle.
Every case we get, for example, you know, there's parts of it
that are a little bit over our head on day one.
And then we wrap our heads around when we think about it,
we do our research, we look at case law and we, we look at, you
(17:42):
know, other things we've done inthe past.
We come up with a reasonable answer.
That's well thought I would support it, right?
You don't get to get there. It's not like when you write the
exams and you know, you have 4 hours to, to come up with
answers to, you know, 3 cases and you get, you know, 15
minutes each or whatever or whathave you, right?
This is the situation where you have usually have some time, you
(18:02):
can do some research, you could apply it, right and apply your
knowledge. If you're, if you're doing that,
you're a good profession, right?That's, that's really the mark
of a good question. We should be doing the research,
doing doing your diligence on your files, right?
You're not always going to have the answer right away.
No one's got encyclopedic knowledge like that.
If you think you've sort of met partners in your life that do,
(18:22):
the reality is they they attain that over like 20, 30-40 years
of experience, right? They made many, many mistakes in
their 20s and 30s. Just like, you know, you and I
will, right? And you know, that's again,
that's par for the course, right?
Sometimes that that's lost on sort of the under professionals
think, wow, you know how my partner and my group get so
smart. Well, you been doing this for
(18:43):
three years and they been doing it for 30.
That's really the difference, right?
You'll see 27 years. From now.
That's right. No, I firm believer that you
have to do something repeatedly to get really good at it.
We were just talking at work theother day about, you know, how
class actions really help out because you just have to do
basically the same thing so manytimes that it's almost hard not
(19:05):
to get good at it or not to understand how it all works.
Because at the end of the day, you're just doing the same thing
so many times, right? Absolutely.
I, I could speak from personal experience, like earlier in my
career when I worked, I mentioned Collins, Gerald
Vaughn. I, it was a smaller firm, so the
clients were smaller and usuallyworked on like the entire file
from beginning to end, right. And, and sometimes they keep you
(19:27):
MG's of the world. You don't do that.
You work on your specific subsetlike your PNG.
I was, you know, I had audit clients and I worked on the
audit and that was one of the few that also did a little bit
of the personal, sorry about thecorporate tax, but usually it
was just audio, right? That calls Borough Lawn.
It was always everything. So the audit, the corporate tax
(19:47):
returns, the nasal statements for the holding companies, the
personal tax returns, the whole sort of cycle, right?
That kind of comprehensive experience that you get in sort
of smaller mid-size firms is vital, right?
And you know, you could argue that it's more, more important
than something you might get a bigger firm that I don't want to
know my, my period, the KPMG was, it was excellent and you
(20:09):
know, I'm very grateful for it as well.
But it was just you kind of figure out what the, what right
fit is in your career. And my right fit has always been
sort of on the smaller, medium sized clients.
And that's why, you know, the firm that I'm with is, you know,
sort of that. That target right you find your
niche as as you move through your career.
Fantastic. Well, Claudia, thank you so much
for taking the time to to share this insights with us today.
(20:30):
And thank you guys for tuning into today's episode.
Sounds good. Thank you so much.
We'll see you around.
Hello, everybody. Welcome to another episode of
Studying Law Around the World. Today we have the opportunity to
be hosting here Claudio MartellaOcchi.
Claudio, thank you so much for joining us today.
Yeah, thank you very much for for having me.
It's it's a pleasure to meet with a fellow Claudio.
They only make good ones with that name.
That's right. Absolutely have to agree with
you on that one. And a very cool thing is that in
(00:37):
the last, you know, I, I think maybe 20-30 episodes, I
basically spoke with lawyers only in the podcast.
And I'm so glad to get the chance to speak with you today
and just start off our conversation today.
Could you introduce yourself to our audience?
Yeah, yeah, I'd love to you. So like I heard about you on on
sort of LinkedIn and and througha couple of colleagues that you
(00:58):
I think you've interviewed already and I noticed that you
kind of working away from the last night.
I thought it might be cool to speak to someone like me was
sort of law Jason right. So I am a chartered accountant.
I'm a chartered business valuator.
I did nine years and really personal property tax and audit,
most recently KPMG and then I switched over really into
evaluations and litigation support.
And so I do it a ton of litigation related work.
(01:20):
My projects in particular is probably 60% litigation support
based and we cover, you know, matrimonials, shareholder
disputes, commercial litigation,damages, quantification, a
little bit of personal injury and then the state litigation as
well, right. And so, you know, we were a lot
of a lot of different hats and we do a lot of work in that in
that space. And so I thought it might be
(01:42):
cool for you to see, you know, what an expert witness is, is
sort of like and that's what we do typically have those cases.
Well, that sounds amazing. And if I were to ask you to, you
know, kind of go back to the beginning, what first, you know,
sparkle that interest for you inaccounting and business
valuation, did you just grow up thinking you just wanted to be a
(02:03):
CPA? So bad.
Oh no, no, no, no. Far, far, far from it.
So I was a bit of a. You know.
How to, how to put it. I wasn't the most responsible
high schooler, I would say, you know, my marks weren't the
greatest, you know, in the firstcouple of years anyway.
And I sort of found my stride inGrade 11.
(02:23):
And I found it honestly in accounting class.
I, I took to it naturally, for whatever reason, I liked it.
I was very good, marks were veryhigh.
And I thought this is kind of cool.
So I took it again in grade 12. And again, I, I did enjoy it And
you know, I, I found it a bit ofa, a niche for me.
You have to be a certain level of nerds or they like accounting
and I consider myself that levelof nerd for sure.
(02:45):
And so, you know, I did well andI thought, wow, let me look into
this as a potential career path.And I, I realized that all the
doors, it remained open. And one of the reasons why I
found it so valuable is because I actually didn't know what I
wanted to do with my life for the longest time.
It probably took me longer than most, and I'll get to that a
little bit later, but probably until I was in my early 30s
(03:05):
where I figured out, Hey, this is what I really want to do,
right? And it was really the
flexibility that the CPA designation of the accounting
experience and expertise provides you because you can
really get into any field with sort of that the backdrop,
right? And that was really, I just
wanted to give myself as much flexibility to keep as many
doors and windows open as possible because, you know, it's
(03:28):
a big wide world of life and career out there.
And I didn't know what I wanted to do for the longest time.
That's that's kind of spark. It that sounds great and with,
with your career, kind of looking over, you know, your bio
online, you're LinkedIn and all of that.
I saw you have a background in, in multiple areas.
You just mentioned all the flexibility that the designation
gives you, but you know, included audits, tax compliance,
(03:50):
financial reporting. Were there any key moments that
that really shaped that career path, either confirming that you
really wanted to do that or things that, you know, I really
don't like doing that, I'm goingto do something else.
Yeah, that's a great question. Key moments when I left.
So I was working at a firm called the College Barrow Bond,
(04:10):
which was in bond and later became Bigger Tilly Bond and got
bought by KPMG where I eventually worked after.
But I was there for about 2 1/2 years and I learned a lot.
The personal corporate tax and audit, I felt like I needed to
kind of grow and I thought that the next step would be to kind
of work for, you know, in in theindustry space, not in public
(04:31):
accounting anymore, right? Work for like 1 specific
company. And so I enough and I got a job
at a company as an assistant controller and I hit and no
offence to the company or anything, it just wasn't that
wall was for me. I realized that a lot of the
things that I thought stressed me out about was accounting.
I really like a lot. I like jumping around from
project to project. I'm working on different
(04:53):
different companies files, you know, every two weeks and really
bouncing around a lot. The pace and the variety was
what made it so attracted to me and what I liked so much.
And so I didn't really realize that until I left.
Now what what the clarity was when I left and that ultimately
came back to work for KPMG was that I needed something a little
(05:13):
bit more than just audit and personal corporate tax.
I'm like, what will that something more be?
So I thought, what can I stack on to my CPA designation that
sort of builds it? And I thought of the CBV, the
CFA and the NBA and I thought NBA too similar and probably not
as as good overall compared to the CPA.
(05:34):
So that's out. And the CFI I thought
interesting, but we're probably cannibalized a lot of my
accounting experience and background.
So that doesn't really work either.
Another I looked up at the CBD and and I had done one project
because my old boss wasn't CB. We did one valuation together
and it was, it was a litigation based and I thought it was so
cool. So I dug more into it.
(05:56):
I thought, wow, this is really, really cool.
I didn't even know this existed,that accounts could do this.
And I enrolled in the program even before I started keeping G
and I called them, you know, I'll give you 3 busy seasons
here in an audit, you know, to be a good soldier.
But I want to eventually like get into the valuations
department and, and really go full on with this, like I, I
(06:17):
want to be evaluated, right. And and that was probably the,
you know, the bit of a long winded answer, but that was the
the key moment was kind of leading public accounting and
then coming back to it and realizing I want to take this
other step and move forward thatway.
Awesome. So just here to clarify for the
audience to the CBV, the Chartered Business Valuator and
(06:37):
just for tax, do you need to be already a CPA in order to do
that or how does that work? You do not actually, no.
You can go directly into the CVDstream.
There's a lot of again, congruency between CPA and CPP
needs a lot of personal attacks knowledge like it helps.
I don't think you need it, but it is definitely helpful.
A lot of accounting knowledge. Obviously when you're CV, the
(06:58):
main document you're looking at her college statements and trial
balances, right? So you know, if you're, if
you're accounting background, obviously that stuff is a little
bit more familiar to you than ifyou were or not, but it's not, I
would not say it's a requirementin any respect, right?
They started to build upon each other.
Whichever 1 you have or do first, the other one would still
(07:19):
build upon, you know, if you were to do it 2nd.
And you really don't need to do the CPA at all like if you want
to be CPD, but I wouldn't say like it would definitely sharpen
your skills if your goal, right?There's no question.
So yeah, that's that's that's what it is.
Fantastic. Well, thank you for, for
clarifying that. And the, the more we look into
it, it seems like accounting in the law overlap more and more.
(07:41):
So I'd love to hear more about Guido, the work you do, the, the
business valuation, the legal matters.
I, I was just thinking as I, as I prepared for this, right.
But I, I'm guessing for, you know, the solo lawyers, they
have to do a lot of the, a lot of the things end up being on on
their own right, like from the, the accounting for the firm
(08:02):
itself all the way to each of the cases they work on.
But I'd love to hear a little more about your role on that.
Yeah. So that's funny you mentioned
that. So obviously we're a full
service accounting firm. We do a number of, you know,
typical sort of nuts and bolts accounting services for lawyers
and professionals across the board, whether they be doctors,
dentists, but you know, lawyers,all the above.
(08:22):
But my department specifically is valuations and litigation
support, which is probably a bitof a misnomer because we really
are like quantification, really,anytime you need a number, we're
sort of, you know, the, the teamto call, so to speak.
And, and you know, often in litigation matters that the
primary concerns are financial. And when their financial, that's
where we really, you know, can help out with the flesh out that
(08:45):
sort of the answers or at least provide some sort of path
towards resolution. So for example, how we do a lot
of matrimonial work and in the matrimonial space will do, you
know, income calculations for support purposes and we'll do
valuations of businesses and even preparation or assistance
with preparing the Form 13.1 financial statements.
So that's your sort of personal financial statement when you are
(09:07):
in a divorce matter. And that combines something
called the net family property statement, which is how you
determine the division of assetsand the old ultimate
equalization between the two parties when they split, right?
So we are very well adapted and very, you know, enthusiastic
about putting us up together. And again, in order to bring
resolution, right. So we like to provide some clear
answers. That's some clear paths forward.
(09:29):
You know, things like divorce are very, very sad, very
difficult parts of people like. So from my perspective, it's
always been about taking, you know, helping someone get
through something very difficultin the way that I can.
So I appreciate that we're not, we're not, we're not saving
people's lives on the operating table here.
You know, we're not the doctors of the world really, really
making the most impact, but, youknow, in our own little way,
(09:51):
this is where we contribute to, you know, making people's lives
better, right? That's that's sort of what gives
me to it for me for that. But that's not true, right?
And then you've got like state litigation where, you know,
beneficiaries might be fighting over, you know, a certain
certain states assets, maybe allthe assets, maybe some of them
and how they were divided. States I always refer to as sort
of like a choose your own adventure.
You never really know what you're going to be asked to do
(10:13):
at the beginning within the state matter to help resolve it.
And a lot of times we work with council really for both sides to
figure out like what is the bestway to do that.
And we also work with our task consultant department, which is
sort of in lockstep with ours, to figure out a way that we can
kind of value the assets or provide a quantification of
whatever they need us to and then to distribute the way
(10:33):
that's very tax efficient. And the example I always give
is, you know, I can say this stuff is worth $5,000,000.
And then our tax department's job is to kind of make it feel
like 5 and a half, $1,000,000 for the beneficiaries, right?
By distributing things in a verytax efficient manner, right?
And that's, that's the value we try to provide to our clients.
And really one of the main things about our firm that made
(10:53):
us very attractive. We're sort of a one stop shop
for this kind of stuff, right? And not, not many firms are,
frankly, we're, we've grown a lot.
We're 100% firm now. You're probably around 18, about
4 1/2 years ago when I when I joined and yeah, just, you know,
we've been off to the races thatand a lot of growth, very dizzy,
but it's been amazing and made alot of impact I think in the
(11:15):
market and people's lives. And that sounds so great.
And I guess it ties a lot to theto the personal story that you
had on figuring out what you like.
And then once you find that veryuseful of a profession for sure,
and in a designation that you know, makes sense for you,
taking all of that into consideration, you know,
thinking about young lawyers like lost students right now who
(11:35):
are also trying to navigate different spaces and maybe even
consider a nonlinear career paths for for law.
Yeah. You mean it like a a lawyer
trying to get into that kind of thing or a lawyer engaging with
or networking with those type ofpeople that they they have sort
of that at their disposal if thecase needs?
No, at friends laughing about, you know, young, young lawyers
(11:58):
were like, you know, I don't wanna do the lawyer thing.
The law degrees very useful. I love it, but I don't think I
want to be a lawyer. And then maybe going into that,
and you know what, why don't we talk about both of the options?
Yeah, sure. I mean that's very existential
for sure. Like if you're a lawyer and you
want to get into that side of things.
I always find, you know, for whatever reason that my wife is
(12:19):
a lawyer as well. And it's like I'm allowed to say
this. A lawyer is in now don't always
I feel like light up very well together.
And that's frankly why I'm I'm employed, I think and why my my
designation is service package exists and is attractive in the
1st place. I think that lawyers should veer
more into sort of the the theology and and you know, the
(12:40):
real dirty, gritty, you know, arguments behind, you know,
positions, right, whether it be two or more on a given matter,
right. And sometimes they need that's
worried about the number they'reworried about their their own
position stance, right, based oncertain set of case facts.
Lawyers, I always feel like are more like puzzle oriented that
(13:00):
way, right? Whereas, you know, people like
us, the number, the number of guys and gals are a little bit
more structured in that regard for what we said.
Like, you know, we really want to break everything down into
the dollars spent. Sometimes Gerard detriment, like
I, I have a joke actually, but Ialways say you're on in my role,
sort of 60% account, 20% lawyer at 20% therapist, because you
(13:24):
know, with the States and and matrimonials, the reality is if
they're very emotional, right? And the lawyers will definitely
know this, obviously, like it's such emotional work.
You have such, you know, personal conversations with,
with really everyone involved because you're just you're
digging into their life, right? Like, oh, how did you split, you
know, annual expenses with your husband or wife, right?
(13:44):
You know who paid for what, you know, they pay you a salary out
of their business, right. Like a lot.
There's a lot and get, you know,even more, more in depth from
there. But I probably can't share on
the call. But you know, when you get so
ingrained with it, it's just, you know, you, you have to have
sort of a different perspective.And while the two things are
very similar, being that, you know, about litigation account,
(14:05):
you know, 60% of the time they're just very different.
Yeah. For, for I guess a lawyer that
wanted to try their hand and going through the account.
Be my guest. Feel free to reach out.
But you're probably you are probably already picked the
right? Path amazing going on the other
route we just talked about you know how do you you know build
these relationships with expert witnesses and all of that I I
(14:27):
know that there is some sort of a there must be some sort of
like an A non that close of a relationship because.
That's interesting, right? I'd love to hear about, you
know, the networking and all that.
Yeah, it's professional services, right?
So The thing is, you know, you can market it like crazy and you
can have the greatest website and LinkedIn profile, yadda
(14:49):
yadda. And the reality is word of mouth
is still sort of the number one,the networking tool and business
tool, right? And your delivery is the best
marketing that you can do. You do well on your files.
People say, yeah, you know, I'veworked, you know, in my case, I
worked with this guy Claudio, and he did a really good job on
the style of never witnessed. You know, to you that like that
(15:12):
kind of stuff is important. That's really it.
Like I would reach out to basically others in your space,
right, and say, have you worked with any good valuators you and
all of any that are recommended that you gotta, I mean, you
could do the Google search thingas well.
Like that's not like that. Well, you could read up on my
Leathan profile and you know, host of others, right, and, and
websites and things like that todo your research.
(15:33):
I encourage you to do it. If you're you're a lawyer in in
sort of the litigation space or even not even solicitor space
where you have to quantify things sometimes and it may be a
little bit over your head. Getting the accountants involved
earlier is generally better. It's less costly.
You won't spin your wheels trying to figure out what to do.
Typically get will have the answers and you can kind of lay
out the thought and it's just more efficient.
(15:55):
It's always better, you know, toprovide that that kind of full
package service to your clients.It won't always be apparent on
the first case for the second case, but ultimately, if you
kind of know what to do and givethe situation, even though it's
not your specific expertise and knowing what to do might just be
simply OHI should call, call that violator again, right?
That might be enough to get the job done and do good work for
(16:17):
your client, right? That at the end of the day is
what you're trying to do as a profession, trying to provide,
you know, good quality service and that will build your own
sort of brand and your and your business and your career from
there, right. It's easier than it than than it
really sounds. I guess you just got to do it.
It's a contact. Sport.
That's awesome. And I think it aligns the lot
with with the whole story you'vebeen telling us about how you
(16:39):
got to where you are today. And maybe even is that your
personal belief? If you were, you know, to tell
yourself from, you know, 10 years ago, just try it out, see
if you like it. Is that what you'd recommend?
Yeah, 100%. Like you just gotta do it.
You know, It's not, it's a bit related to sort of imposter
syndrome where people always feel like, you know, they're,
(17:00):
they shouldn't be in the role ofthey're in or they don't deserve
it. You know, if you if you
challenge yourself from life, you always kind of feel like
that at some degree, right? You almost should feel like
that, right? Because that's how you know
you're growing. If you're sort of in unchartered
waters a bit like, you know, you're expanding your horizons,
you're getting smarter, You don't you feel it yet or you're
(17:20):
not so confident, right? And that's not to say like it's
not really fake it till you makeit.
No, if you're a diligent professional, you do the work to
better understand something. Everything is a puzzle.
Every case we get, for example, you know, there's parts of it
that are a little bit over our head on day one.
And then we wrap our heads around when we think about it,
we do our research, we look at case law and we, we look at, you
(17:42):
know, other things we've done inthe past.
We come up with a reasonable answer.
That's well thought I would support it, right?
You don't get to get there. It's not like when you write the
exams and you know, you have 4 hours to, to come up with
answers to, you know, 3 cases and you get, you know, 15
minutes each or whatever or whathave you, right?
This is the situation where you have usually have some time, you
(18:02):
can do some research, you could apply it, right and apply your
knowledge. If you're, if you're doing that,
you're a good profession, right?That's, that's really the mark
of a good question. We should be doing the research,
doing doing your diligence on your files, right?
You're not always going to have the answer right away.
No one's got encyclopedic knowledge like that.
If you think you've sort of met partners in your life that do,
(18:22):
the reality is they they attain that over like 20, 30-40 years
of experience, right? They made many, many mistakes in
their 20s and 30s. Just like, you know, you and I
will, right? And you know, that's again,
that's par for the course, right?
Sometimes that that's lost on sort of the under professionals
think, wow, you know how my partner and my group get so
smart. Well, you been doing this for
(18:43):
three years and they been doing it for 30.
That's really the difference, right?
You'll see 27 years. From now.
That's right. No, I firm believer that you
have to do something repeatedly to get really good at it.
We were just talking at work theother day about, you know, how
class actions really help out because you just have to do
basically the same thing so manytimes that it's almost hard not
(19:05):
to get good at it or not to understand how it all works.
Because at the end of the day, you're just doing the same thing
so many times, right? Absolutely.
I, I could speak from personal experience, like earlier in my
career when I worked, I mentioned Collins, Gerald
Vaughn. I, it was a smaller firm, so the
clients were smaller and usuallyworked on like the entire file
from beginning to end, right. And, and sometimes they keep you
(19:27):
MG's of the world. You don't do that.
You work on your specific subsetlike your PNG.
I was, you know, I had audit clients and I worked on the
audit and that was one of the few that also did a little bit
of the personal, sorry about thecorporate tax, but usually it
was just audio, right? That calls Borough Lawn.
It was always everything. So the audit, the corporate tax
(19:47):
returns, the nasal statements for the holding companies, the
personal tax returns, the whole sort of cycle, right?
That kind of comprehensive experience that you get in sort
of smaller mid-size firms is vital, right?
And you know, you could argue that it's more, more important
than something you might get a bigger firm that I don't want to
know my, my period, the KPMG was, it was excellent and you
(20:09):
know, I'm very grateful for it as well.
But it was just you kind of figure out what the, what right
fit is in your career. And my right fit has always been
sort of on the smaller, medium sized clients.
And that's why, you know, the firm that I'm with is, you know,
sort of that. That target right you find your
niche as as you move through your career.
Fantastic. Well, Claudia, thank you so much
for taking the time to to share this insights with us today.
(20:30):
And thank you guys for tuning into today's episode.
Sounds good. Thank you so much.
We'll see you around.
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