#153 - Hillary Allen, Professional Trail Runner & Gravel Cyclist

Hillary shares her journey from academia to professional trail running, shaped by her scientist parents and a strong support system. She opens up about a life-changing accident, recovery, and the mental resilience it required. Themes of community, authenticity, spirituality, and redefining success run throughout, as she prepares to host a retreat focused on connection and personal growth.
Hillary’s Book: https://tr.ee/EVmzuEIDJv

Hillary’s Retreat: https://www.hillaryallen.com/hillygoat-camps

Hillary’s IG: https://www.instagram.com/hillygoat_climbs/

SQ Newsletter: https://stupidquestions.show/pages/contact

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
How's it going everybody? Welcome back to another edition
of the Stupid Questions podcast.Today on the pod, we're going to
be talking with Hillary Allen. She is a professional trail
runner who is running for Brooks, used to run for The
North Face. Really awesome gal.
Get to talk about her backgroundin the world of science and
being a scientist and working onmultiple degrees there.
She wrote a book called out and back.

(00:20):
Make sure to check that out and this conversation.
Is just really amazing because she.
In addition to being an amazing athlete in academic, she
survived a fall of over 150 feetin Norway on a Ridge during a
competitive trail race, of whichshe was likely to come out
number one in the world that year.
It was almost eight years ago. So really interesting

(00:41):
conversation how she was able topull through that physically,
mentally, spiritually in many other facets as well.
Really great advice and good conversation.
So thank you so much to Hillary and without further ado want to
introduce you to. Hillary Allen.
So, Hillary, tell me, where are you at right now?
Well. I'm at home in Boulder, Co.

(01:05):
The end of the athletes. Exactly.
I know. But I mean, I'm from Fort
Collins, so like, Colorado's been home for a long time, but
Boulder has been home for the past, I don't know, since grad
school, whenever that was. Yeah, How long ago was grad
school for you? Well, I finished in 2015 and
that's like kind of when I have been like I, I started living

(01:28):
more permanently in Boulder. I was at CU in Denver.
Yeah, but then, you know, I've lived in France, travel a bunch
for for work, so and you know, for running.
So I but this has been my home base for a long time.
It feels nice to actually like own a house here so I don't have
to move every year. Yeah, I feel like finding

(01:50):
housing out there has always been a struggle from some of my
friends who are a little more a little bit more Vagabond.
I think a little bit earlier in the in the journey of becoming
athletes and whatnot. But yeah.
Thankfully I have a van so that was.
Like a great. House and then because I've
always lived the Vagabond life of like sick well yeah, like
several months out of the years living in that or like living

(02:11):
out of a suitcase but yeah, it'staken a bit but.
I'm glad. Yeah, that's awesome.
So, well, First off, thank you so much for taking the time.
I really appreciate you jumping on.
I know you got a busy schedule traveling here and there and
about, but I really do means a lot to me that you took the time
to sit down and talk with me. So thank you.
Yeah, absolutely. I'm happy to be here.
I know we kept on trying. It's going to happen.

(02:32):
I didn't want to give up. Yeah, no, it totally happens.
Just totally. By the way, what kind of bike do
you have in the background? I know I actually have two
bikes. A Pinorello.
This is the gravel, and then theone behind it is the dogma.
So I have Wow, those are some beautiful bikes.
It's so amazing. I yeah, I've been on the
Pinarello team for the past, gosh, since 2019.

(02:55):
So yeah, they're awesome bikes. I.
Love that. Yeah, Congrats.
They're so unique in their look and feel, just like the subtle,
I don't know, swoops of geometry.
It's just they look like sharks.That's what I think of.
Honestly, I didn't really, I didn't grow up riding bikes
really and so I had never riddena carbon frame bike until I got
one of these and it is a game changer I feel.

(03:17):
Like I'm like. Obviously, I mean, it's like
you're in like a sports mobile on a bike.
It makes such a difference. It's.
Awesome. Yeah.
It's so funny you say that. Like when I first got into
riding, it wasn't that many years ago.
Honestly, it's like 2019. I bought kind of this cheapy,
you know, carbon fork slash aluminum.
And then I when I decided to upgrade to like a full carbon

(03:39):
frame, it was like night and daydifference.
So it's just wild, like going from Honda Acura to BMW, like
you just feel it in the steeringwheel, right?
Yeah, I mean, I, you know, with the Italian Ferrari all the way
now, I guess. I mean, actually though, like
Scuderia, it's like Scuderia Pinarella.
So it's like the same parent company.
So I feel a little bit spoiled, Yeah.

(04:01):
Are you Italian? You're not right.
No, I'm not Italian. Yeah, I mean, I dated one, but
no, I'm not Italian. That's so funny.
So first question, it is a bit of a deep 1, so take a second if
you need to, but it goes a little bit a third person
perspectives. But who is Hillary?

(04:24):
You know, I spent a lot of time thinking about this and because
I think we can get caught up a lot and just like the day-to-day
is our to do lists, busy schedules, You know, we're just
talking about how hard it was toeven, you know, schedule this.
But I think if I even had to be concise in one word, I'm just

(04:45):
this very curious and optimisticperson at my core.
So that's kind of like the through line that I think why
I'm so driven. It's just it starts with
curiosity. I just want to know why and I
want to, you know, figure it outso.

(05:06):
Yeah, Speaking of the through line and curiosity, I was having
a conversation with my wife lastnight about, you know, whether
being driven is of nature or nurture for you.
What do you think it is? Oh, this is a great question
because yeah, I'm a scientist. So it's always, it's always
really interesting to think about that Like what actually

(05:28):
like as, you know, parents, you know, how do you make a good
kid, right? Is it just genetics or is it
like kind of a crapshoot? I think it's a bit of both.
I think I inherently I'm very driven.
I've always been that way, even compared to my sister.
Like we were driven in differentways, but I was driven like
almost to the fact of like perfectionism for, you know,

(05:51):
good grades in school. And it was not because I wanted
to be the best compared to everyone else.
It's just I was super competitive with myself.
So I feel like there's that inherent piece, but also I
learned this drive the from example, like with my parents,
they're both scientists, high achievers.
And so I learned an example of like what excellence looks like

(06:13):
through that, through that, through like the, yeah, the the
nurture nature part of it. So yeah, I think, I think it is
a bit of both. But I do think it is something
that you can teach and it is a skill that you can that you can
learn and you can get better at it.
Yeah, and develop for sure. You mentioned scientists.

(06:36):
Your parents are scientists and you were also a scientist.
Give me a little bit of a back story of what kind of scientists
they were and when you decided that that may be part of your
future. Yes.
So my both my parents work, they're retired now, but they
worked at the Colorado State University.
My father was a food science human nutritionist, but think
like biochemistry, like how metabolism works at the cellular

(07:00):
level. So he was a biochemist
researcher. So our dinner table
conversations were always very interesting.
We were always, you know, like one step ahead of the New York
Times articles about like what was in the know for, you know,
diets and whatever. But it was always research and
science based. My mother is a parasitologist.

(07:20):
She's a microbiologist, so when I started running, the first
thing she gave me was a life straw to like filter the water
that was going to meet. So I didn't get Giardia.
Very nice. But I think again, through that
example, a combination of both, I was always very curious and

(07:40):
because I had the example of my parents, I want to be a
scientist from as long as I can remember.
I think the first day of kindergarten when people are
like, we're asking about career days of like what you want to be
when you grow up. My answer was always a PhD
scientist. So that was like the driving
force behind a lot of my decisions early on in my

(08:02):
academic career. And I was always an athlete in
parallel, but it was mostly driven towards academics.
I could go on that track to get my PhD and be a scientist.
And I went to grad school. So in undergrad I was a chemist.
Organic chemistry is like my favorite subject of all time.
Oh my goodness. And math, physics, math and

(08:25):
physics are close second. And then I went to grad school
after kind of a year between undergrad and grad school,
thinking about what I wanted to do, I applied to neuroscience
programs and I went to CU Denverfor a PhD in neuroscience and

(08:47):
Physiology. So I was like APHD candidate.
But then during that time I kindof got all my research
qualifications and like my, I published some papers.
I was on track to, you know, getmy PhD.
But then I discovered I didn't actually really want to pursue
that job. I wanted to do more like

(09:08):
teaching and not as much research.
And so basically I forfeited my my PhD and I graduated with my
master's degree. And then I kind of was like
coincided with this running career thing.
Yeah, wow, there's a lot to diveinto there.
So when you started to consider that this wasn't the future

(09:33):
anymore for you, was there a lotof conflict internally and
trying to figure out which path to take?
Oh, yeah. Because I mean, I, I thought I
was like letting a lot of peopledown, especially like myself
down because I was very driven and like goal oriented towards
this thing that I, you know, I saw my father and my mother in

(09:55):
these jobs and I respected them greatly for it.
I truly enjoyed learning and pushing the boundaries of the
intelligence and like what we know and what I could contribute
to that in the world is very motivating.
But I also realized there was this point and I was struggling
with this, this decision for probably the greater part of a

(10:17):
year of, OK, I should just stickit out.
I should just do this versus like my heart and mind knowing
that I actually didn't want to do this.
And what I've learned is that your energy and motivation is a
finite resource. And if you're not actually deep
down super passionate about something and and driven to push

(10:40):
it forward, then you're only doing yourself a disservice
because you don't. You don't give enough energy to
it, and you're actually effectively hurting yourself.
Because I was basically, I started to hate my job.
And I don't want to hate science.
I don't want to hate learning. I don't want to hate research.
I didn't want to ruin that relationship.

(11:01):
So I figured it was actually better to kind of like, let it
go and figure out a new path, whether that was taking a break
from grad school and then saying, OK, I'm going to
reignite my energy. Maybe I'll go back to it.
Or, you know, stepping away and then finding a new career path,
which it ended up being the latter.
But initially it was having the wisdom to be like, OK, well

(11:22):
actually I need this. I don't want to end up hating
this. So I need to take a step away,
regroup and then figure out nextsteps.
With your parents being obviously more academically
minded and still in the scientific world, I would
imagine around this point of your life, what was the pushback
or conversations that you were having from them in terms of

(11:45):
like, well, I'm going to leave this, you know, potential stable
career path and I'm going to go run.
Well, I did not tell them. Oh really?
Yeah, why not? I know, so I'm actually some of
this is definitely a flaw, but it's actually it's a strength
and a flaw, but I'm very independent, so much so that
like I can just be so single, like minded and focused that I'm

(12:11):
fine just be by myself and like making these decisions.
And although I I really respect and love my parents, I thought
that it was, I did not want their interference, their
interference of their opinion oftheir judgement to influence
what was best for me. Like I needed to make that
decision myself. And so that's why I didn't tell
them when I was like grappling with all of this, like I really

(12:34):
wanted to. I like would write down to do
lists and I would, you know, basically take one day and
pretend I had made one decision and then evaluate how I felt
about it. And then the next day I would do
the opposite. I'd like make the contrary
decision and you know, and then finally by the end of it, once I
decided to graduate with my masters, of course, I told them,

(12:54):
but it was after I had made the decision and secured another
job. So, so they wouldn't worry.
But of course there was a lot ofpushback.
I think my mother and father are, they're, they're old and
they, my mother, there was no opportunity for her to be a
professional athlete. And like, you know, even my

(13:14):
father was a great runner. He was, he ran for the British
national team. He's an amazing runner.
But he was always, and this is how I was raised too.
It was always academics first, athletic 2nd.
And so like, I kind of, you know, took this leap and they
were quite nervous about it because they didn't see how it

(13:34):
could go into a career. And even then, it was just, to
me, first, it was like, this could be like one or two years.
Like, we'll see. I know that being a professional
athlete is a is a finite period of time.
And so it seemed like, you know,I had a lot to fall back on.
But I think they're very, very skeptical at first just because
this was not a viable career path.

(13:55):
And they're, you know, both raised in this world where, you
know, you go to college, you geta job, you stay in that job,
then you retire and so on and soforth.
Yeah. So again, there's a couple of
questions I want to ask her on this involving your parents.
So it's interesting because you had a post recently, and I'll
paraphrase a little bit, but youwere talking about this concept

(14:15):
that when someone believes in you, when you don't like you go
out. You have the motivation to go
out and try something that you don't even yourself think is
necessarily possible. So you had some belief that, you
know, you needed a break, you found another job.
I'd be curious to hear what thatjob was and how it aligned with
kind of the break mentality. But you start running.
Who were the people that believed in you?

(14:37):
And did your parents ever come to a place where they stepped
across the line and said, you know what?
Like Hillary, I'm glad you made this jump because obviously
you're successful in it. But you seem truly to be
enjoying it and gleaning a lot from it.
Yeah, so I mean, at first I think there is that inner belief
like you have to be your own best friend.
I mean, I and I'm like, it's kind of weird how I think about

(14:57):
that. Like I think it's important.
I'm huge on like mindset obviously with neuroscience and
I'm back in school again to get a masters degree in applied
sports psychology. So I love this stuff.
But it's like when you think about something like in the
third person, let's like I thinkof myself because when we're out
running or doing our sport, it'slike it's US versus ourselves.
So, you know, you could have other people running the track

(15:20):
workout with you, but you in theend have to do it.
So I feel like if I can imagine myself in the third person, like
someone else talking to me, it'salmost like I have this little
like advocate. And so you have to have self
belief. You have to have this, this
entity of like that someone, someone that believes in you and
it has to start with you first. And then there's obviously other

(15:42):
people in your life. Like I had a great coach.
That other job that that that happened.
I'm in grad school was I literally got a sponsorship from
The North Face. So I had some other financial
aid. I also started teaching part
time at a small college. So I felt like I had these other
things I could like fall back upon if, you know, I gave
running a chance for a year and it didn't work out.

(16:05):
So but then it's been beautiful because my parents are my
biggest fans and I think they obviously wanted me to succeed.
And the reason that they were worried is that they know they
loved me and they didn't want meto, you know, to not have, you
know, a house or not have, you know, a place to live or a
steady job or income. And so shelter.

(16:27):
Yeah, yeah, they're they're worried out of that.
But it's been amazing because now after, you know, I've had
success in athletics and you know, I've kind of built this
career, they've they come with me to they like coordinate their
vacations to come and watch me race or maybe they see what I've

(16:49):
built even like on the foundation of athletics.
But like these other things thatI'm doing outside of it, I've
built a coaching business and you know, they see me thriving
in that aspect. And it's, you know, all in this
kind of new area of athletics that, you know, I didn't even go
to school for. But they're, you know, they're
immensely proud. But it was, you know, I think
another way that they showed me that they believed believed in

(17:10):
me is they they didn't discourage me from not making
that decision of leaving grad school.
They were worried yet supportive.
You know, they're a little bit skeptical, but they're like, OK,
Hillary, like, Yep, you can do this.
And then, you know, we're going to be here support you.
And then it's been cool because they've been, you know, they've
been that that support network that I could, you know, then

(17:34):
talk about as, as you know, talkto when like things were going
well or not going well or like to bounce ideas off of and
things like that. So yeah.
Did you ever get a point in thisjourney when you decide to take
a pause and then eventually kindof leave that world for a while?
Did you ever think, oh, maybe I made a mistake?
Yeah. So many times, yeah.

(17:55):
I mean, especially like when youget injured, it's like that's so
hard. And it's like that whole self
identity piece where you kind oflike you're like, who am I
without running? And then I'm realizing like,
well, I've been a scientist longer than I've been a runner.
Like I better like engage with more of those things on a daily
basis than just focusing on, youknow, training for races or
like, you know, myself worth based off of like the quality of

(18:18):
a workout. Like, you know, I don't want to
have all my friends who love me because of my fitness status.
Like I want people who are in mylife who don't give a crap about
that stuff. And my family is one of them.
So, you know, it's like, but yes, of course I've like
wondered if I made a mistake, but at the end.

(18:41):
But then I asked that question, you know, maybe in times when
I'd like training is hard or, you know, not doing well.
But then at the end of the day, I'm so glad that I took a chance
on myself and like kind of leaptin both feet and, yeah, just to
see if it would happen and if itcould work out.

(19:04):
And even if it didn't, I'm stillglad that I took that chance
because it's, yeah, it's a, it's, it's a cool like
opportunity or just it's awesometo, to try something new.
And you learn a lot from failure, so.
Yeah, you truly do with when when it comes to like the the
source of motivation in the initial you were saying, you

(19:25):
know, you have to have a level of self belief to have the faith
take that first step to like see, you know is are you going
to have solid footing when you try to go down this path because
it's like so foggy. So for some people I have met
and I have really drawn a blank when trying to figure out how to
give them advice in that realm. So I've just decided not to
because I don't even understand it.

(19:46):
But from your perspective, like do you have any advice for those
who are maybe a little more neurotic, afraid to be like, I'm
more a little more depressive. They feel like, oh, I need
somebody to kind of be with me there. 100 steps or with 100% of
the way through each step. Like for that type of a person,
it's a bit more difficult. What do you say or what would

(20:07):
you say to those types of peoplewho are like trying to figure it
out? Like if they if like a pro
career like running like or evennot even just with running, but
just like. Changing.
Yeah, just like, yeah, we're just changing direction and like
knowing I need a change. Like you said, you get you start
to hate something because you'rejust not truly in it and you
want to go out and find something different.
So for me, and I also would describe myself as like, I'm

(20:30):
very pragmatic. I'm very deliberate.
I'm very like, I like to plan, but then there is a little bit
of spontaneity that I have and things are just like, OK, I have
to try it. That's I think the scientists to
me, it's like, well, that gives me data.
So it's like if I'm going to tryit, I still learn.
Like, I mean, I remember this ingrad school, some of the biggest
lessons and experimental data that I gained was from a failed

(20:53):
experiment. So I think about it like that.
But the biggest thing I would say to those people is you have
to be honest with yourself. And for me, the best way to be
honest with myself is like, because sometimes we're afraid
of what other people think or like the outside judgement.
Write it down. I am such a huge, I, I, I

(21:15):
journal everyday. I'm, I'm a huge writer.
But like, not like on computer or like a notes on your phone,
like purposeful writing pen to paper because it slows down your
thoughts. You get to see it, you read it
out loud inside your head and it's just, and I mean, no one,
no one will read it. It's like it's, it's yours.
But as you have to be very honest with yourself.

(21:36):
And if you're honest with yourself and you're realizing
like certain things aren't working, it's like it's clear
it's there. And then you can kind of take
steps forward to change what's not working.
But and, and, and it's like thathonesty and impatience.
Nothing happens overnight. And if something is worth doing

(21:57):
it, it takes time to do it. Great advice.
So I'm curious with your you said sisters or sister.
Do you have sister? One sister.
One sister, Are you older or younger?
I'm younger. OK.
So what has her journey looked like in I guess coordination or
with with yours as you guys havegotten older?
Is she also a scientist? So it's so funny because my

(22:21):
sister was like the runner. She was really super fast.
Like in high school, she was thelike we had a really good cross
country team for Collins and shewas running like 17 minute 5 KS.
So she's really fast and she gota scholarship to go to college

(22:41):
to run. And then but like she had kind
of an unfortunate turn of event.She has endometriosis and so it
really affected her ability to run.
She was in a lot of pain. So then she's also still a
scientist, She's a nurse. So she lives here not too far
from me. She's one of my best friends.
So yeah, she still is active anda runner.

(23:06):
She gets, she's like not one of those people who can like do
like the Boulder thong, like offthe couch and like, it'd be
fine. Like, yeah, she's a very
talented athlete, but I don't think she trains as much
anymore. But yeah.
So she's but it was really funnybecause like she was the runner
and I was kind of the I was the tennis player.
I joined the cross country team just to like kind of cross train

(23:27):
and the offseason from tennis and I like barely made the
varsity team and I was like, notthat good.
And yeah, it was kind of funny that now I'm like, well, yeah,
I'm like the ultra endurance runner.
So yeah. Yeah.
When did that like start to become?
Because you, you know, you started running.
When did running become a thing where you were like, this is

(23:48):
this is actually what I want to do.
What? What do you think led to that?
Right. So I was so again, like I was
everything. I was like, OK, I'm going to
grad school this, these are all my decisions.
Like and then got into grad school and I had played tennis
in college and I was trying to play tennis like kind of like

(24:10):
the open level and so doing tournaments like joining
leagues. But it was very, very, very
time, time, like expensive with time and money.
And I did not have that extra time in grad school.
And so I went back to running because that was always a part
of our conditioning. And I could run, you know, super
early in the morning and then beback in lab for either class or

(24:32):
experiments. And it just so happened that
there was a running group that met like half mile from my
house. And I started going with them.
And they're a bunch of like, like these these women who are
like in their early to mid 50s who had been training partners
for like 30 years. They were like Olympic trial
marathoners in the 80s. I had so much to learn from them
and it was great. They were like kicking my butt.

(24:56):
And then one of them, Janie Day,she was actually, she set the
record on the Pikes Peak ascent here in Colorado.
She was, she's like a legend. And they just happened to be
this woman who is the head of this, this, this running club.
And they, she trained me for my first marathon and then kind of
introduced me to this trail running world.

(25:17):
And so this was actually in gradschool, the first year of grad
school, I started running, did my first marathon, started trail
running a little bit. And then it literally just like
took off from there. And it, it wasn't this idea that
I wanted to race or even do thisas a career at all.
Like I had no idea. I was just doing it for fun.
And but I did notice that like, I did have some talent and I and

(25:43):
I just enjoyed working hard and seeing the progress that I was
making. And then, yeah, I kind of was
like, OK, after grad school settled down a little bit, I
started to do more races. And like almost every weekend I
was just like kind of traveling to place new places to run or
doing different races and ended up like my first season of

(26:07):
running trail races, ended up winning the US Sky Running
Series in 2014. And then sponsor started like
knocking on my door and I'm like, yeah, OK.
Maybe I'll give this a little more serious time.
Yeah. And I thought like, and then
that was kind of at the time when I was really questioning

(26:28):
whether or not I really wanted to do grad school, not because
running was going well, but justbecause I wasn't as happy or
fulfilled in grad school in thatcareer path as I originally had
thought. And I kind of like, again,
decided I was going to take a break.
And then during that break, I was like, well, if I'm going to
take a break from grad school, Imight as well like, you know,

(26:50):
take North face up on this offer.
They're offering me a contract for a year.
Sure, why not? And then, as they say, the rest
is history. Yeah, exactly.
So when you take that contract for the first time, I mean,
that's a that's a big step. And I don't think enough gets
talked about of just what is required to negotiate on your
own behalf to sign a contract and then to fulfill the

(27:11):
obligations that are set that experience like navigating for
you because I mean, I guess it fits in a little bit with the
analytical mindset. But yeah, tell me about that.
Well, and. This is OK.
So this is gosh, like 12 years ago.
So it's I was a bit naive. I was very naive and they
weren't offering me like, OK. And this, this is actually the
misnomer. I think sometimes it is very

(27:32):
rare if it is a new athlete likecoming into the world that they
get offered cash off the spot. But that was not my contract.
Like I had to race and like prove that I could have results
like for multiple years before that was even on the table and I
didn't have an agent, right. So it's like, again, I wasn't I

(27:53):
wasn't a collegiate athlete coming into like the pro world,
you know, in the running world to get a contract.
So I was just like, sweet, they're offering me like a
travel budget. They are giving me like a race
kit and then, you know, had these other requirements with
social media for like advertisement, representing the
brand, this level of professionalism.

(28:15):
So I saw it as kind of like, let's, let's see what I can do.
I use that travel budget to thenlive off of when I was in
Europe. So I basically like packed my
bags, put them in storage in Boulder and then took that money
to basically, you know, have a stipend to live off of when I
was in Europe. And not everyone does it that

(28:35):
way, but this actually, I didn'thave social media before this
point. When I started working with The
North Face, I started an Instagram and then I started all
these other things that like, you know, now is a huge part of
being an athlete to represent a brand and to like almost like
build your own brand, right? So it's been, it's been an

(28:56):
incredible learning curve. But again, back to that piece of
curiosity. I love learning.
I love new challenges and it's been like, I feel like I'm
getting like in real time a master's degree in marketing and
like brand management and all this other stuff as I'm, you
know, have grown my like, you know, grown my business and

(29:17):
brand and like, you know, going through this whole career as a,
as an athlete. Do you like the social media
aspect of what your job entails?I would describe it as a
necessary evil I but here's the thing.
When I so I. Had a pretty bad injury and

(29:38):
accident like only three years into my pro career and in
Norway. Yep, in Norway.
So I basically didn't know if I was ever going to run again.
And I told myself right then that if I'm going to do this and
it's something that literally can like I can die from it, that
I'm going to do it on my terms and I'm going to do something.

(29:58):
It's like, and if a brand wants to work with me, then great, but
I'm not going to sell my soul for a for a contract or for a
sponsorship, which I think before that point I was getting
sucked into that. It's like the brand says jump
and I'm like, oh, how high. And after that happened, I was
like, no, I running and this lifestyle is so important to me

(30:19):
just as my own physical and mental health, that no
relationship with the brand is going to get in the way of that.
And so basically, I can now, OK,yes, social media is an
unnecessary evil, but the way that I like to do it, and I

(30:39):
think especially after the accent, how I've tried to grow
my brand and how I put out things on social media is from a
genuine, honest place. I'm not there to sell to sell
things for people. I'll represent my brand well and
I'm going to do that, but it's going to be in an authentic way
and I'm not. I much prefer to be honest about

(31:03):
the whole like the not just the glamorous parts of social media,
but the really hard parts about,you know, after recovery meant
like mindset this whole thing that like I.
Think a lot of people. Don't they don't do they, you
know, open up social media. It's like you're showcasing your
best moments out there. And to me that's never been
realistic. And it's, and it's like kind of
cringy if, if, if that's like kind of all you see.

(31:25):
And so I am very proud that I can, that I put that stuff out
there. Like I now I do like more
writing as a, as a means to, to get information out there as
opposed to just, you know, Instagram things that are just
like more meaningful, that can actually put more thought behind
them. And this all, you know, I wrote

(31:46):
a book about like the injury recovery process.
I mean, this is all now part of my whole ethos about being a
whole person, not just an athlete, this whole, you know,
sports psychology master's program that I'm in and just my
interests as an athlete and person in general.
So yeah, I'm, I like it if it can be shared in like a genuine

(32:10):
manner. Of course, it's not always
possible because it's literally one snapshot in like 1 moment in
time. But if I can be, if I can be a
little bit more honest and truthful in how I share my
journey, then I feel like I'm doing, I feel more just happy
and proud of that than than someof the other pieces.

(32:32):
Like of, you know, you're just basically like this marketing
tool for these brands. You just feel like they can use
and abuse you. And I'm not into that.
Yeah, being. Genuine and authentic actually
really isn't even that easy because I think sometimes it's,
it's kind of compared to, Oh well, I shared my hard moments.
But it's so interesting because even when we're up on stage
talking about something, you tell a story and like in my

(32:55):
mind, I have a very distinct setof memories that are flowing
through and I have the context for the entire situation.
So as I'm explaining things, sometimes I will explain it
thinking that the audience is kind of sitting in that moment
exactly where I am. But then I'll talk to people
afterwards. And then I have had people come
up and say that they, you know, thought about a certain
situation in a different way, good or bad.

(33:15):
But it's always interesting to me because it's so hard to
convey without a back and forth face to face conversation what's
actually going on. Because I'll say, Oh yeah, I
totally understand. And you'd be like, actually, no,
that's not what I meant at all. It's again, it's very hard to to
to communicate that because so much transcends, you know, that
one degree, one way communication when you are in

(33:37):
that back and forth, reading thefacial expressions, the body
language, the getting the raw motion in the moment, because
you know, some people are like, oh, I'm crying.
I should whip out my phone here I am.
I know. It's like, okay.
Well, we're not. How did you get there?
You know, Oh my gosh, I. Know, and that that's like
that's something that I feel like I think is great about
social media is that you can youcan reach a ton of people.

(33:59):
I remember when I was like recovering from this crazy
injury and you know, people fromall around the world could
follow my story, right. It was great.
I could receive instant messagesfrom someone on the like the
opposite end of the world. But then at the same time, at
the back to this neuroscience, it's like you're getting that
initial like serotonin hit from like feeling like you're
connected, but you're missing the secondary hormone, which is

(34:22):
like oxytocin, where it actuallylike closes the loop where you
actually like feel connected anda part of a community.
So it's like, then we constantlyopen up our phones and be like,
oh, we need that hit. But then when we put it down, we
feel even more lonely than when we began.
And so this is actually something that I've been trying
to do more and just how I develop myself as a, as a person

(34:43):
and athlete is what are the things that I'm missing?
And I spent a lot of time traveling and that's one of my
favorite things. So they get to connect in person
with people at different races. But also it's something like at
my home here in Boulder, Like how can I integrate into more
community, like in person touch points with people that'll make

(35:06):
me feel more a part of the running community.
Because in here in Boulder, everyone is an athlete, yet no
one trains together because everyone is like so specific.
And get my intervals after. What?
Got to get my intervals in. I'm like OK.
Well, if you have like 4 1/2 minutes and I only have 4, sure,
I'll go in your interval. Like it's fine, you know, like I
don't care. But like, you know, so I joined

(35:28):
a training group, which has beenawesome, like Andy Wacker and
his wife Carly Rumpel, Like theyhave this trail team here and
it's in Boulder. And like I'm, you know, running
with them a couple times a week.And then, you know, doing these
other things. Like I launched this hilly goat
camp this year just to bring people together, not in a race
setting to like spread the like joy and knowledge of trail

(35:51):
running. Like it's like community events
like that. It's something that social media
can't give you. I mean, sure, I'm going to
showcase it through those channels afterwards, but it's
like the genuine experiences that that I like that you can
only have I think through conversation, you know, in
person or otherwise. Yeah, yeah.

(36:12):
It's so interesting to me, like when I get on Instagram reels
and you see like this really awesome runner doing a track
session or a biker and like theyjust look honed in.
They've got the lighting and then the sweet song.
But then like when you're actually out there doing that
hard effort or on the track, allyou can hear and feel is your
lungs screaming at you and your heart beating through your
throat and you're just like one more lap, one more lap, you

(36:33):
know? It's like, it's not glamorous.
It's actually really painful. It's super painful.
But like, honestly, the latter, like what you just described,
like the pain, the grit, like that.
That's why I love running and why I love moving and being able
to do that and share that with people and not without your
phone and like, you know, video it.

(36:56):
It's like those are experiences that like form long lasting
friendships. They also it's like that that is
like solidifies the relationshipof like you with the endurance
sport, you know, or whatever sport that is.
It's like that is the beautiful part.
So yeah, I mean, even though I have like a, you know, social
media presence, like you have tolike, you know, build the brand,

(37:19):
I'm more passionate about just getting people into the thing
and into sport. And if that means like spending
less time on your phone and likegetting out there, that's a
wins. Yeah.
A. 100% so I'm trying to. Figure out how to phrase.
This and be sensitive. But so I've experienced some
crazy things. I was held at gunpoint once and

(37:41):
telling that story for a while brought me back to that
experience in not a good way because like I hadn't fully
worked through that. Now I can tell a story.
So the reason I say that is I would like to ask you that story
about what happened in Norway. But if you are uncomfortable
telling that story, that's totally fine because I know that
that can bring you back to like some scary dark places.
But are you? I appreciate that.

(38:02):
And, and yes, like there was a time when I couldn't really talk
about it, but I think the more that I have talked about it and
journaled about it, like I thinkit is actually healing to kind
of tell it. And it's like empowering.
And it is, it's like a part of my story.
So yeah, I mean, I mentioned it a little bit.
But so again, like when I was ingrad school and I started

(38:23):
running and that first year of like my first year of trail
running, like a designated season, I won the US Sky Running
series and I was like, OK, sick,I'm going to give this a shot.
Had fresh off like sponsorship. I then went and started racing
around the world and I started, I raced in the world sky running

(38:45):
Series and I was third in the world.
And then the next season I was second and then like I was, you
know, doing really well. So I had proved my worth to
North Face. They had then come back and like
we had negotiated some money andlike a contract and stuff like
this. Like I was doing pretty well.
Like I had given it a year and this is like 3 1/2 years in now.

(39:06):
And I was like, awesome, this iscool.
Like I could do this as a career.
And then this is like 2017. I was competing on the that
World Sky Running Series circuitand of course my goal was like I
wanted to win the thing. So I was so close.
And that year, 2017, I was actually ranked number one in

(39:27):
the world and I was the last race of the season with the
second to last race of the season.
And it's in the series. So it's like I'd already racked
up enough points that like I wasgonna, I was gonna win.
I just had to kind of like finish this last race and not
get last. Well, I was on this ridgeline
and sky running is like really technical stuff.

(39:49):
You climb like this race in particular was in Trump's of
Norway. And it was. 37.
Miles. But you climbed like, I don't
know, 16,000 feet. It was very, very steep and
rough and rocky and technical. And we were on this like iconic
ridgeline that was called the Humper Rock and Ridge.

(40:10):
And it's kind of like third class.
So you're like running kind of like, but you're putting a hand
down for stabilization. Like you're kind of like picking
your way through this terrain because it's, it's all rocks.
And I rounded this corner And the last thing I remember is I,
this photographer was yelling atme to like, get ready.
Like I'll take your photo when you come around the corner.

(40:32):
He was a friend of mine. And then the next minute, like,
I rounded this corner and I stepped on this rock and it was
like a rug was like pulled out from under me.
I had no chance to even registerthat I was falling.
You know, sometimes when you're like, kick a rock, you're like,
oh, crap, I'm going to fall. This was like instant.
And the next minute I knew I wasjust airborne and I was upside

(40:54):
down and I had this feeling of falling.
And it was one of the scariest moments of my life because like,
literally time slowed down. I Remember Me realizing it.
And then I'm telling myself, oh,my Hillary, like, brace yourself
for impact. Like you're falling.
And then that kind of cycle was on repeat.
I remember hitting the ground and like, I didn't feel any pain

(41:18):
at first, but I felt like the impact of like the air being
knocked out of yeah, just like a.
Blunt force. Yeah.
I felt like my like. I definitely felt bones
breaking, but it wasn't and thatwas pain on repeat.
Until. Somewhere along the way I passed
out, but in total I fell 150 feet off of this ridgeline.
I broke 14 bones. I had to get helicopter rescued

(41:39):
out of there like it was. I was so lucky to not be dead.
Like they thought this is after the fact, but basically people
who rescued me who were first onthe scene, they thought that.
They were doing a body. Recovery, like they didn't
think, they didn't even check for vitals when they were moving
me from the edge so I wouldn't keep falling.

(42:00):
So yeah, that was pretty brutal.Like I broke my back, both feet,
5 ribs, both wrists. Ankle.
Yeah, what is the next? Thing you remember?
So I remember like that falling like that, like me talking to

(42:23):
myself. And then the next thing I
remember was like, I wake up andthere's this guy's face that's
like really close to mine. And then just a lot of pain.
And then from there, it was kindof like the world was kind of
like going in and out. Like I would be conscious and
then I'd be unconscious again because of pain.
And then the next thing I remember was the sound of a
helicopter and then being hoisted up into the helicopter

(42:44):
and then seeing, like, the doctors.
And then the next thing I remember, I was like, going
into, like, an MRI machine. Yeah.
And then morphine. Then it was all very, very
blurry. And then, like, I remember
people, like, coming in who I recognized to come visit me in
the hospital bed. But it took me about two days to

(43:05):
really realize that like, there was an accident, but that it was
me who fell and that like, I wasin the hospital bed.
Yeah, that's wild. I can't imagine coming to from
that and trying to put together the pieces because I've had some
traumatic injuries, but not obviously to that level where
you're going in and out. And then So what were what were

(43:27):
your first like initial thoughtsbecause obviously this is your
career. You were about to literally
summit this race and then be first like there's a lot of
recovery ahead. Like what were some of the
initial thoughts and just kind of the, I don't know, the
closure you were kind of grasping for it to figure out
like how to put these pieces back together physically and

(43:49):
mentally. Yeah, that's a great.
Question I do actually remember when my earlier thoughts was
like when I was on the mountainside and I remember some
familiar people like like getting to rescue me.
I remember like kicking my legs and thinking to myself, OK, I'm
not paralyzed. And then but then there was like
a lot of sadness and a lot of anger.

(44:10):
I was actually really surprised with how quickly I spiraled into
like a really deep depression and how I was like, not even
motivated to even try to use my body because I felt so helpless
and hopeless because this was the first time I'd ever broken a
bone. This is the first time I'd ever

(44:32):
had a serious running injury. I just like, went big, like all
in. And yeah, I, I'm right.
Like I remember my like this. And your mindset is very
important to recovery. Like if you give up, things can
go. Downhill.
Very. Quickly and I think my Norwegian

(44:53):
nurse, she recognized this and she kind of gave me a stern
talking to and she's like, Hillary, it's been 5 days, you
haven't moved from your hospitalbed, I'm going to help you.
Like she didn't even give me an option.
She's like, I'm going to help you and you're going to move to
this chair and like, you're going to have your breakfast
there. And it was kind of like that.
Now. I was like, I was like, oh, OK.

(45:15):
Like I need, I need to like believe in myself.
I need to help myself in the situation.
Like I'm the only one that can do this.
Like, sure, I have all these injuries.
I don't know, like, what to do. But like, I'm the one that needs
to like, take the initiative here.
And so yeah, that was kind of the beginning of the end.

(45:36):
Like I still I had no idea like what to do as far as recovery.
I was in the hospital for two weeks before I was able to go
back to United States and they had to like see experts and
like, you know, sports experts there and get three more
surgeries. The second day that I like, the
day after I landed back in the country, I.

(45:57):
Hate surgery, I mean, and I've had.
Like 7 in the past 7-8 years, you know, cuz there's been a lot
of stuff that happened in my body.
And yeah, but I think like with that, of course there's a ton of
uncertainty. There's a huge recovery process.
Like because I only had one leg to stand on.
Like I had this, this horrible injury in my foot where I tore

(46:20):
the Liz Franck ligament in my foot, which is the doctor
described it as a career ending injury.
Like I they said I'd be lucky ifI was able to jog recreationally
again, but like competing was out of the question because it
was just such a bad ligament injury.
And you know, I had two broken wrists, couldn't hold anything,

(46:40):
couldn't bear weight on my rightlegs.
That means I couldn't drive, I couldn't go up and down stairs.
I couldn't bathe unassisted, I couldn't cook because I couldn't
hold anything heavier than a Coca-Cola can.
Like I was just completely helpless and hopeless.
And I went from the most capableand like physically fit that I'd
ever been. Could literally summit mountains

(47:02):
and run 30 plus miles in a day. And then the next day I couldn't
even basement level 1. -100 Yeah.
Yeah, it's like, it's so humbling.
And I think I relied so much on the identity as an athlete of
like strength and like strength and not asking for help or being
able to do it myself, travel theworld alone and all this other

(47:22):
stuff. But then that was so humbling
because I realized that not onlydid I need people, but I needed
other things outside of sport todefine myself worth or else I
wasn't ever going to get back tosport in a healthy way because
it was just this really just baddynamic and bad relationship.
And so I basically had hit, you know, rock bottom and hadn't.

(47:50):
And it was kind of like the peeling back, like I had no idea
that I was in such a bad state mentally.
But this injury just, it was like a mirror and, you know, I
could see everything and I just basically had to build myself
up, not only physically but mentally and emotionally, yeah.
So a couple of questions are just first kind of an
observation. I would imagine when you go

(48:12):
through something like prior to this, you know, at least for me
and my experiences, it seems like there's this really tight
connection and it's almost hard to define the lines between mind
and body spirit. Like these lines are a little
bit just blurred. But then when you experience
something like this where there's such a distinct
connection or disconnection or cutting off of like, like you

(48:33):
said, you're no longer even selfreliant.
You can't bathe on your own. What you have is like your
mentality is still intact. You can't really physically cut
that up. I mean, there could be an
argument made that it can definitely be damaged, but what
was that like putting together yourself obviously back together
mentally before you were able tokind of start really attaching

(48:55):
purpose to this recovery processand like bringing the all of
that back into one cohesive unitthat could be fit again?
Yeah. So honestly, I think as
athletes, when we're injured, weimmediately go to like the
physical, like what can I do to get back?
But I couldn't do that because Icouldn't walk, you know, for 3-4

(49:19):
months, barely had a leg. Yeah, so.
I had to, I really had to rebuild the mental piece of it.
And for me, I had to really discover and to figure out my
why. Why did I want to run or did I
just want to, you know, to, to leave it and just to go to

(49:40):
something else? And that was really the
important part of like the healing process of like, why do
I want to run? Why do I want to move?
Not because of competition, but because of like, no, for no
other reason that I wanted to doit in whatever way, shape or
form it took. Not like that I wanted to get
back on podiums and winning again.
But why did I want to try to move in that fashion again?

(50:01):
And that was really where that healing happened.
And it was, you know, in the quiet moments in my room where I
would journalize again. I've, I've always been a
journaler, but like, I would take that time every moment,
every morning and every evening to write down.
And sometimes it was really angry, like I was pissed at the
world. Like, why did this happen?
I didn't understand. But then it was that and working

(50:25):
with a, like, an amazing sports psychologist and just really
doing the work every day, like on the mental and emotional
piece to figure out, OK, like, Ido want this in my life and
separate from competition or a career.
Like I wanted to try to recover,not to compete again, but just
to run and move again. And I think having that

(50:51):
distinction really helped me in that initial recovery journey
before I could then attack the, like, physical recovery piece.
Yeah. What year was this again?
This is 2000. 17 OK, so we're coming.
Up on 8 year, eight years this summer.
Yeah, yeah. So that's a long time for for
the 10 year anniversary. You think you'll go back or

(51:12):
something? Well, I have actually.
I did go back like 2 years later, I went back to do the
race because I felt like it was like this big scary cloud like
hanging over me and there's still like a lot of fear.
And I was really good friends with the guy who rescued me,
Manu Par. And so basically I was just one
time I like went back to this race and I was like, I ended up

(51:35):
winning. And like, I set a course record
and I called Manu and my coach and I was like, this is the year
I'm in Europe. I'm going to stay here.
I'm going to go back to Trump. So like, will you run this race
with me? And he's like 100% yes.
And so we did it. And this is actually at the time
when I was writing my book. And it was incredibly cathartic
and healing because, yeah, I could write about it in real

(52:00):
time of this experience of, like, going back to the place
that I fell the day, like the two days before the race, and
then like, completing the race with Manu.
And there's the people who were volunteering on course that day.
They were out there. Like, everyone was crying.
I was crying. Yeah, I'm sure.

(52:20):
Yeah. Was it hard?
To go Pat like do you remember ish like the exact spot where it
happened and like was that hard to cross that boundary or were
you afraid or looking at every rock and like jiggling at first
to make sure you can make that step.
So honestly, it was the. Weirdest thing, it's like I
vaguely remembered, you know, like this spot, but then I had

(52:42):
this like eerie sense in my bodythat my body was like, get the
heck away from Oh, I can only. Imagine it like it.
Remembered. I remember and then, you know,
it was like I was kind of curious and asking Manu
questions about like the whole rescue operation and stuff, like
kind of the pieces that I didn'tremember.
But then, yeah, it was, it was, it was very emotional.
Like I'm glad I went there the day before the run the race

(53:06):
itself, because I didn't want tohave like an anxiety attack.
But yeah, it was it was powerful.
It was. But it was incredibly healing to
go back there and see it and know that my body remembered it,
yeah. So how has your idea of
self-reliance changed over the years?
Like if you were to talk to yourself eight years ago this

(53:28):
summer to that girl who's about to run that race and you know,
you're you're going to obviouslyexperience this thing soon.
Like what kind of advice would you give to her or revelations
of understanding? Would you pass on that you have
now figured out? Yeah, you know, I.
Think the biggest thing is that you can't do it alone, you have

(53:50):
to have people because I think being an athlete and like self
reliant and fitness can be the biggest superpower, but also
like one of the biggest I. Don't know it can it's.
Like a false idol, it's. Like a false God.
In a way, here it is because. You can get yourself out of some
crazy situations like if you're fit enough to like just run in

(54:10):
the mountains without a jacket or like, you know, emergency
equipment or like you know someone, But it it's not always
that way. And you know, it's like no one
can do life or anything alone and you're stronger with other
people around you. And even if that like that
community, even if that's just one person, it's like that can

(54:30):
make all the difference. And so having someone else to
like, you know, help you with the burden, I think that's
really powerful. And I think that's the biggest
lesson that I've learned from the injury recovery is like
letting more people into my lifein a more meaningful way and,
you know, not being so closed off.

(54:51):
So that's I think what I would tell her.
Would you think that you. Are or would you consider
yourself generally more open minded now post this experience,
yeah. I mean, like, I think definitely
when I was back then is like, I'm still a scientist.
I like, you know, like the blackand white, like the right and
the wrong answers. Like I really love that.

(55:11):
But there's a lot that you can learn from the Gray areas, and
you know when you let a little bit of spontaneity into your
life are. You a spiritual person?
Yeah. What does it?
What does it mean? To you, like, what does that
mean to you when you say like, I'm spiritual?
You know, I think. So I was, I was raised religious

(55:33):
and you know, like, I don't necessarily like go to church
every Sunday or things like that.
So like the, the, the greater, Imean organized religion, but I
think like spirituality is like the biggest way.
The big the thing that I love the most is like when I go on a
run and I can not only like experience like science in real
life, like the leaves changing or like, you know, the birds

(55:56):
chirping and like all of this stuff, but.
I can go. On this trail and be utterly
alone. Yeah.
I feel the most connected to theworld.
At the same time, it's like it'sI, you know, like it's the
coolest experience. I'm alone yet connected to this
bigger world. And I think that, in a nutshell,

(56:18):
is why I could never like, I I had to try if I could run again
after this big accident. It's why I love doing it so
much. Yeah, I love.
Getting out, I I wish that more people who especially in my
world of like triathlons, usually it's a lot of pavement
and concrete, but the exterra side of that world or trail
running, yeah. When you get out in the woods.

(56:38):
So we just recently moved here to Northern California and I've
gone several times to the Redwood national Forests.
And yeah, when you get out there, it's like, first of all,
the feeling of being small is humbling, but also like,
comforting in, in a strange way,just like to know that these
things, no matter what your belief system is like, for me,

(56:59):
it's like I believe that these things were created to be these,
I don't know, harbingers of justlike what patients can do what,
like long term being planted in the area and being watered can
do. Like, these things are massive.
Yeah. Yeah.
And. Also like the stories that they
can tell, you know, it's like the world that.
I also love that. Too about, I mean, because I've,

(57:20):
I still run roads and track and stuff just for, for my training
and I love it too. It's like you can feel that
solitude as well, like no matterwhere you're at.
And it's just like, or like, like just feeling so small and
like, humbled by the effort of running 'cause it like, never
gets easier or even like, you know, on a bike or just like
that whole thing. I think that's also like, you

(57:42):
know, spirituality. It's just like, humbled by like
the smallness and like, feeling connected to this greater like,
like living, breathing world that we're a part of.
Yeah, Yeah. It's interesting.
I grew up religious as well, so went through all the Bible
stories and whatnot. And yeah, it's changed for me a
bit as I've gotten older. But again, going back to like
the getting out in nature thing,you know, when we were told the

(58:03):
stories as a young kid, like theAdam and Eve living in a garden,
I think that's just how we robbed, regardless of how it all
came to be, what your belief system is, if we all were
originally like living out in the woods and living off of the
land like that, that's what feels like home.
Like when you go out in the morning, yeah, you hear the
birds chirping, the crickets going.
It's just like the calm, peaceful feeling.

(58:24):
Unless I wish that I could stay for like 24 hours in that
twilight zone in like when the sun is either rising or setting
and everything's that kind of coming to life for that
transitional period. It's such a beautiful passage
between that night and day that just like, yeah, I wish you
could see what brain chemicals are being released and absorbed
in those moments because it's itis a cathartic feeling.

(58:47):
I love how Yeah, how you. Describe that like the midnight
sun in Norway. It's like in August or, you
know, July, where the sun kind of never sets.
You're kind of in that purgatory.
Yeah, period. But yeah, no, I think, and
that's actually one of my favorite times a day to run is
like, and also like the spirituality is like kind of I'm
a big fan of like rituals and things like this.
So like I like to start my morning like reading and that

(59:09):
like with, you know, coffee or something like to end my day
that way. It kind of depends on what I'm
reading, but like setting intention for the day and then
like greeting the day, you know,with like the fresh morning
light. It's like one of my favorite
things in the world. Yeah, it's our credit.
I mean, so like I'm fascinated by this idea that literally
everything is in like a waveformsound, the way energy travels,

(59:31):
light, whatever, and that it's just a repeating pattern.
And it's just like the sun rising and setting and in the
morning, you know, everything that we do when we get into the
best frame of mind, I think is when we are in some type of
syncopated rhythm of going through.
And that's not to say like it's,it can be bad in certain
instances where you start to be do things too much and you

(59:51):
forget the nuance of why you're doing them, kind of what you're
saying, why we live, why we run and whatnot.
But there is a lot to be said about the.
Not being. Comfortable because I don't like
that word too much, but I guess it is what it is like being
comfortable in the routine because that enables you to be
able to process through things correctly.
Like you were talking about creating that loop with

(01:00:13):
serotonin and dopamine or whichever it was.
Yeah, it's, yeah. It's a beautiful thing.
Yeah. And I mean.
I'd love that too, that analogy because that like speaks to my
scientists core. But also like with that, like
you have like the peaks in the valley.
Like if you look at a wave, you have a peak and then you have a
valley and then you come back tothe peak again.
And so I think about that with like, but then you have like the
baseline, right? Like it goes through the center

(01:00:36):
point, like the peak, center point, valley, center point,
peak. And then, but like you, you
can't live at the peak all the time.
So it's like, if I love the sunrise, then I have to endure
like the dark night before I canget to the sunrise again.
So even with that cyclical and that, that routine, there's
still are like moments of discomfort and moments of

(01:00:57):
comfort. Like, so it's you have to have
both I think to, to experience life at its fullest.
Like I'm not. And I think that's what I
learned too from all the injury recoveries.
And just like the athletic journey is like, it doesn't mean
that everything has to be good. It just means that you have to
like, you know, can find meaningor appreciate the hard times

(01:01:18):
because then you then with that,if you've experienced hardship
or darkness, then you can then you can really appreciate the
light or the the good times. So yeah, I love that cyclical
nature of, you know, peaks and valleys.
Yeah. I'll repeat, the way you said it
reminded me also, I just have toshare this short little story.

(01:01:38):
So one of the most influential pieces of.
I don't know if even can be considered advice, but just
really wise storytelling. It's a little bit sad for a
second, but it was at my father's funeral when I was 16.
But there was this guy who I'd known for a while who was friend
of my dad in front of our family.
He brought me over to like this stained glass yellow window and

(01:02:00):
I was 16th time. So he like kneels down beside
me. I was short and he puts his arm
around me and the sun is settingand coming through this
beautiful stained glass window. And like, it's like one of those
windows and evenings where it's in the fall and you can like,
feel the heat coming through thewindow and like hitting on your
chest, right? So it's already like this
beautiful moment. Obviously, everybody's already

(01:02:21):
crying. But he said, like, look at that
sun outside out that side, that window.
He said there's days they're going to come when you're going
to wonder if that sun is going to rise again.
But he said, remember that it's always darkest before the dawn.
And I feel like that goes perfectly with what you were
saying a little bit with the peaks and the drops, because so
many people get to that valley and they really do wonder.
It's like finishing like I wouldimagine 100 mile race or

(01:02:42):
something like that. Like you're like, am I going to
finish? Sometimes the last few miles
feel the absolute hardest. But when you cross that
threshold, you start to gain that relief and then you can
come out of it and like, that's what people need.
And it's a lot of people are robbed from that because they
quit too early. And then you don't see it, the
possibility, right? And I.
Mean, that's also why I'm so passionate about just like the

(01:03:04):
mindset and the mentality aroundit.
And someone told me this too. It's like you never quit when it
gets hard. That's where you have to tell
yourself just one more step forward.
And I mean, that isn't a nutshell like my the book that I
wrote. It's, I think it's more of a
testament to human resilience and how strong we are in these
really hard moments. It's just we have to endure them
and let them teach us or show uswhat strength we actually

(01:03:28):
possess. It doesn't mean that it's easy,
but yeah, yeah. So your book, we should say, and
mentioned as well as out and back.
I'll make sure to link that in the show notes.
Yeah. Yeah.
So then I guess maybe final question for you, How has your
definition of a successful life changed from when you were?

(01:03:48):
Let's just even go back to the grad school days and where you
are now. Obviously you're, you know, in
that world a little bit again. Now, how has your definition of
success changed? Right.
So. And this is one of the biggest.
This was actually reading this. I read this Chinese proverb in
the Wall Street Journal, and this is actually what pushed me
over the edge to be like, OK, yeah, I'm going to make the

(01:04:09):
decision to to pursue something else and see where it leads me.
My And this is change my definition of success from
success means excelling at one thing and just being really good
at this. And like, that's kind of your
whole identity. Instead, now I think what
success means is failing, learning, trying a lot of

(01:04:33):
different things and, you know, being maybe not the best at it,
but like pretty profession and working really hard to like to,
to try to see how excellent or how good you can be at it.
So not guaranteeing that like, you know, it looks like so
pretty and perfect all of the time.
But this, this Chinese proverb that I read, it was kind of this
analogy of, you know, if you go through life and you're really

(01:04:56):
good at this one thing, you become this like, you know,
you're like a, a little seedlingand you're a tree and you just
become this like, really like a solid tree trunk.
There's no branches. So it's not really pretty to
look at. It's just kind of like, is it
even a tree? We don't even know.
But basically, like if you allowyourself to branch out literally
and explore different pathways, you start to like grow into an

(01:05:19):
actual tree. And if you kind of go onto 1
branch and then explore that, you grow leaves and other little
branches and you kind of go backto the trunk and you explore
another and make another branch.It's like that's how I can
equate to, you know, I've now, I'm a scientist, I'm a coach,
I'm a runner, I'm now a cyclist.I'm, you know, now getting
another master's degree. I'm an author.

(01:05:41):
Like all of these different things that add up to this full
experience of what it means to be successful or a human or, you
know, a life. That's like how I would define
it now more instead of just so singular focused.
Yeah. Beautiful.
And one thing I did want to bring up too, you have a retreat
coming up in September that I guess you're currently talking

(01:06:01):
about. So tell a little bit about that
retreat if people may be interested.
I don't know what kind of limited spots there are, but
what? Yeah, tell me about it so I
know. Thanks.
For mentioning it. So this is something that like I
really wanted, I've been wantingto try for years, like community
is and like just sharing these beautiful places in my hometown
and home state is like I love it.

(01:06:23):
And so community outside of justracing.
So I launched this retreat this year.
It's happening in September in outside of Boulder, Co and
there's still some spots left. But basically what I'm doing is
I'm going to it's peak leaf peeping season.
So I'm going to have everyone come together.

(01:06:43):
We're going to go on runs every day and then each afternoon
we'll have like a breakout. Session 1 is going to focus.
I'm going to have my strength and PT coach come and talk to
us. I'm going to lead a mindset
session where we're developed like affirmations and mantras
till you who's running and outside of that.
And then another one, I'm going to have my friend who she's like

(01:07:07):
a chef and cook come and we're going to all share meals
together throughout the weekend.I also have like a sauna coming.
We're going to have this privatelake that we could do cold
plunges in and like have the sauna.
It's like it's going to be a really cool just community
event, learning about trail running, but really just
connecting with people for this really cool weekend.
So my hopes is that it can grow into something where it can be

(01:07:30):
like a multi sport camp because I love that.
Or you know, like women's only, but just like really like just
community driven connection in nature.
That's just one of my biggest passions.
So yeah, there's more information on my website about
it. Yeah, I'll link it.
Yeah, but it's going to be cool.I'm super excited about it.
Congratulations. Well, Hillary.

(01:07:51):
Thank you so much for let me open up this space and you
accepting it and coming in and sharing your story freely and
vulnerably. Really cool to hear the
different things you've got going on.
I know we just only scratched the surface, but I feel like I
know you a little bit more now after an hour and 7 or 8 minutes
or so. But yeah, I really appreciate
you taking the time. It's been an honor.
Yeah, thanks so much for. Having me, it's been a great

(01:08:12):
conversation, so thank you. Thank you so much to Hillary
for. Coming on the pod and sharing so
freely and vulnerably in the waythat she did across multiple
areas for life, from academics to training and racing, and
coming through that horrible injury and fall that she
suffered in Norway and also the spiritual aspect.

(01:08:32):
I know that you guys know that Ireally appreciate this type to
the conversation. So thank you so much to Hillary
for coming on. If you made it to this point,
the podcast though, I just want to say thank you so much.
Really appreciate you being here.
If you could like, comment, subscribe, that really helps to
continue to grow the podcast on YouTube.
If you are on any of the podcastplatforms, liking and reviewing,
commenting, those things really do continue to help grow and

(01:08:53):
push this podcast forward. Make sure to check out Hillary's
show note links as well for her book and for her website.
If you are interested in that retreat.
Check out the other show note, show notes, links if you want to
check out any of the stuff that I have going on there.
And yeah, thank you guys so muchfor being here.
Really appreciate it. Always enjoy this conversations
with like minded people. So without further ado, I will

(01:09:17):
say a Jew and we'll catch you guys in the next one.
Peace.