#154 - Tim Don, Olympian  - Stupid Questions with Seth Hill

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
How's it going everybody? Welcome back to another edition
of the Stupid Questions podcast.Today in the pod, we're going to
be talking with a legend, Tim Don.
He is a pre or a retired professional triathlete who did
a lot of stuff in the world frombeing an Olympian in triathlon
to racing Iron Man's across the world.
So yeah, just really appreciate him taking the time to come on
here today. It's really fun getting to meet

(00:22):
all of these legends that I've heard about for several years.
So Tim has an amazing story. Super down to earth, really fun,
high energy guy. So without further ado, when I
introduce you to Tim Don, sweet man, so well, First off, just
want to say thank you so much for making the time.
I know you're a busy guy. I don't know all of what you do,
so I look forward to hearing some of that.
But I know you do a great mini thing.

(00:44):
So for you taking the time for me on this humbly old podcast, I
really appreciate it. No worries.
Not at all. No, Yeah, no worries at all.
Go. In well, I guess first thing I
should say is Happy Late Father's Day.
It's Monday, but it's always a fun holiday to get to reach out

(01:04):
to a lot of my friends now that I'm in the 30s and a lot of them
are starting to have kids and get to tell them Happy Father's
Day for the first time. It's kind of fun.
Oh thank you, had a nice chilledday.
So yeah it's good. My son was, he had a swim meet
so I sat for about 5 hours in a swimming pool.
OK nice. We have a thing in the UK called
DOV Duke of Edinburgh award. OK, so it's so, well, King

(01:30):
Charles now, but when he was Prince Charles, he set this,
this up called the Duke of Edinburgh, which is was his
name. And it was for young children.
And they do a bronze, silver andgold.
And it's about, I wouldn't say survival.
So my daughter's 14, she's doingthe bronze.
You do it through school and they went camping for the
weekend, but they get dropped off somewhere in a group and
they have to, they have to meet these certain points.

(01:51):
You know, I think they walked, Ithink 6 hours with no phones,
you know, just a map and then they camp and yeah, do stuff
like that. So she was, she was gone for the
weekend. So it's nice and chilled at
home. Yeah, yeah.
That's neat. That's awesome.
So let me ask you this question.What does it mean to you to be a
father? I think, I think now, yeah.

(02:12):
I mean, it's just everyday life.It's, you know, wanting to
install into my children the kind of, I guess the, you know,
the values that I have and the values that my parents brought
up makes you respect, not respect, makes you, you know, be
thankful for me anyway, for my parents, you know what they did
for me growing up, especially inthe world of sport.
Yeah. But man, the landscape changes.

(02:33):
Hey, from when when I was, I'm 47 now, so from when I was a kid
to them. So for me, yeah.
No unconditional love and doing everything I can to support my
kids. Yeah.
To be better. Unconditional love Has there
ever been a point in your term as a father when that
unconditional love was hard to give unconditionally?
Always the little buggers, aren't they?

(02:54):
Let's be honest. We were all kids.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. When when you tell them to go to
bed for the umpteenth time when they're growing up.
But no, I mean, God, no. You.
I mean, my daughter's 14, my son's 10.
So, you know, they say kind of not that it's hard, but it kind
of never gets easier. The bit the older they get, the
bigger they get, the bigger, thebigger the problem.
Different sorts, you know? So we're not at that stage yet.

(03:17):
So no, I mean, gosh, no. You do anything for them, right?
Yeah. Are you still cool in your kids
eyes or are they starting to transcend beyond that?
Yeah. Definitely not my daughter, but
then sometimes we'll be attract me or you know, and someone will
will see me and want a selfie and stuff like that.
And then she's a bit like, Oh yeah, that's my dad.
And yeah, I think, I think definitely Hugo, my son.

(03:40):
Yeah, we we go on, we're really good mates.
So yeah, no, that, that that's pretty cool.
So yeah, not, not quite. You know I do have terrible, not
that I have any but they like what they say.
Dad jokes type things. Not that I try and be funny or
their jokes. At all?
Yeah. Yeah, that's funny.
So tell me about where you grew up.

(04:03):
Where did I, I grew up in southwest London, so a place
called Hampton, Teddington BushyPark in that area.
Yeah, it was, Yeah. It's a very like in terms of
what I do. It was, it was just like like
all this, like it was, it was kind of like the Silicon Valley

(04:23):
of the endurance world. So there was a university there
called Saint Mary's University. And there was a sports agent
there called Kim McDonald. And his agency was Kim Kim
International Marketing. Now it's pace.
So now that agency manages MO and Bolt and you know, all of

(04:43):
all of those amazing track and field runners.
And he wanted, he got a contractwith Ken, with, with Puma to
there's $1,000,000 deal to bringall of these East African
athletes over to Europe. And they all descended on this
little suburb where I grew up. So I'd be going to school and
I'd see the likes of Daniel Coleman, the first guy to go
under 8 minutes for two miles back in the 90s.

(05:08):
Yeah, I mean Richard Naroka, whowas the then he was like the
number one marathon runner. British Sonia, Sonia O'Sullivan.
She's been to many Olympics, might won many medals at world
champs and endurance running. My little local triathlon club
was called Thames Turbo Evans and Thames Turbo was the area
Thames because we were on the River Thames Turbo.

(05:30):
Yeah, we go fast. And there was and, and, and I
swam for a solid swim club and there was a guy who's five years
older than me called Spencer Smith and he was in my swim club
and in my triathlon club. And he won.
He was world triathlon world champion, kind of like 3, you
know, three times. So in terms of like swim, bike,
run and just that endurance Mecca, it was just like, yeah, I

(05:50):
was just. So for when MO first came, Mo
Farah first came to the United Kingdom.
He joined my run group, he joined my coach.
So I, I was like 16 running withthis 13 year old who was, yeah,
we realized pretty, pretty earlyhow good he was.
Yeah. What does that do to the
maturity level at that time because like 16 I was, you know,

(06:11):
not at all frontal, frontal lobedevelopment was very sparse.
So for you, well, how did that affect your growing up?
I think for for me, I was in with, there was basically three
of us. There was a guy called Sam
Hockey and then Ben went Ben Whitby, who were one a year old
or one a year younger. They both went to school with

(06:32):
me. And we just loved running.
We just loved, you know, they were runners.
I was a triathlete, so I would soon before school.
They knew nothing about that. But we just wanted to, we just
wanted to run. We wanted to have fun.
It wasn't for us, you know, that's what it was in our DNA.
It was in our communities DNA. Yeah.
And, and, and for me, it was like second nature to do.

(06:56):
Yeah, to do everything, everything and anything that was
kind of, you know, I, I got a job as a lifeguard at the local
open air swimming pool. And then when we're on our lunch
break, we'd go to the River Thames, jump off a bridge, get
out, jump off a, you know, it was like we were just doing like
fun stuff like that. So it's just second nature
really. Growing up, my parents were very
sporty as well. And my, I've got a sister who's

(07:18):
five years older, so she was thecross country captain, Oxford
University and she rode for Oxford.
So she was a pretty good athletein her own right as well.
Yeah, five years older, I would imagine.
So Are you close with your sister now?
Oh, we are, Yeah. She lives in Switzerland, so
geographically, not that I live in England, but yeah.
And her daughters are a year older and a year younger.

(07:40):
They're like 15. They're 16 and 14.
So they're a year older than my oldest.
So yeah, we go and visit them every holiday They come over
here. They just finished school now
for the summer. We finish in three weeks.
They're coming over I think for three weeks to stay with us and
one of them is going to study veterinary.
So she's going to jump in a veterinary practice near here to

(08:01):
do some shadowing. And yeah, we just just hang out.
So yeah, I got on really well with my sister.
She does triathlon. She's she went to New Zealand
for the world 70 point freeze asan outpage group her and yeah,
she does all that stuff. So yeah.
That's beautiful. Your parents, you said that they
were rather sporty as well. What did they do when you were
growing up? So.

(08:23):
My dad, he had a, he had a funnyjob, I guess he was to go
football, soccer. So he was a, he was a referee,
but he went to the World Cup finals, the European Cup finals,
did all the Premier League games.
So I grew up virtually every other weekend going, sitting in
a director's box for the PremierLeague team because the referee

(08:44):
always got free tickets for every game.
And then when he retired, he became the director of
performance at the Premier League in terms of he turned the
referee into professional, you know, very professional where it
was a full time job. So yeah, he was super fit
running around and yeah. And then my mum, yeah, she just,
she was just active member of a gym.

(09:05):
Yeah. I think badminton, she played a
lot of badminton and stuff like that.
So yeah, it was just, I think back in the day, obviously there
were no mobile phones. You know, we have a week off at
school at the end of February. So we'd always go up to either
Yorkshire or the Lake District, which are renowned walking
destinations. We'd always rent to cottage and
go walking for a week as a family.

(09:25):
So yeah, we were always that kind of outdoor, outdoor
activity, kind of yeah, family. For sure.
Who would you say that you're more like?
Your mom or your dad? I'm probably a bit of a balance.
I mean, my dad is very, very like this down the line and I'm
very, very like OCD like that. But then I also kind of like

(09:46):
that's when it very much comes to performance and my job.
But outside of that, like if I play tennis, I don't care if I
win or lose. I just love the game.
I'm not, you know, but you know,when it's swim, when it's my
job, swim, bike, run, then I'm very Jung Jung Jung.
And my mom is very much relaxed.So I think hopefully I have a
balance of both. I'm sure they'll probably
disagree. Yeah, yeah.
It would be fun to to interview them as well just to hear the

(10:08):
what they had to say. So interesting.
I had. So I have a little bit of a
context of who you are now in terms of the things you've done.
But from your perspective, who do you say that Tim is?
Right now, I don't know, I guess, I guess someone who's I
guess is changing because you know, you do something as long

(10:32):
as I've done it from the 90s till about what, three years
ago, that's all I did. Swim, bike, run, you know, and I
was pretty good at it. I would say, you know, that's
people often say what was your most memorable thing from your
career? I would say, well, it's having a
career. Not many people can turn pro in
1997 and then, you know, to earna genuine living every year for
it for nearly what, for 25 years.

(10:55):
And now obviously, you know, I've got to pivot.
I've got to find new ways to to make a living as well as, you
know, bring my family up and andand you know, I've lived all
over the world. So I definitely think Tim Don is
someone in change. Is that a comfortable thing for
you? Do you like that it is that way?
Depends what day of the week it is, right?

(11:15):
No, I mean, I love, I love certain elements, but there is
always that unknown. I think the beauty about
triathlon as a professional is that you're very much master of
your own destiny. It's kind of like, you know, the
the harder I trained, the kind of luckier I got in races, which
is a no coincidence. But now there's many moving
parts. You know, I might, might, might
go down a path of doing some commentary, which I've done for

(11:38):
very for a few organizations. And then all of a sudden I don't
live in Boulder or I don't live.There's a lot of it that's
outside of your control. And then I definitely had a
great support network through mycareer.
And I'd definitely say you choose that support network and
now I don't get to choose it. And I'm learning that like when

(12:01):
you've got a goal as a professional, it's 24/7.
You live, you eat, you breathe it.
You don't have the weekends off,you don't log out at 5:00 PM.
But now it is if I emails, someone emails me, I'm the
e-mail and back. And then I'm like, oh, I just
emailed them at like 5:05 on a Friday.
They're not going to get back tome till 12:00 on a Monday.

(12:21):
And that's not in my world. That doesn't doesn't work
because sports doesn't work likethat, you know, And it is very
much, you know, like that on. Yeah.
So in terms of that, I think a lot, yeah.
It's getting used to that kind of kind of that less performance
orientated world. Interesting.
So as you have gone through a lot of the experiences and just

(12:42):
the general life experience you have for being a professional
athlete and even in the world before that to where you sit
now, and you see a lot of the young athletes coming through
these various pipelines trying to make their way in the world.
How does that filter what thingsyou do and do not say to them as
they grow? I think half of them don't have

(13:03):
a clue who I am to be honest. Most people think think I'm I'm
an Iron Man. And to be fair, I've only done
Iron Man since, well, 2014 was my first Iron Man.
So. And I'm just so like, that was
what, 11 years ago and I've beenretired for three years.
But I think short course racing,I I mean, yeah, you have to bite
your tongue a lot because you don't want to be that, that old

(13:25):
man in the room that says when Iwere a lad, eBay gomit were much
harder. There were none of this, none of
that. A Yorkshire accent.
That's what they look like. That's the kind of mentality
they have up there. But it's very, yeah, I mean,
it's funny because I live near Loughborough, which is the
Olympic training centers where Alex is based.
Sophie Caldwell, Liv Maffey, a British Swimming, UK Athletics.

(13:47):
You know, it is one of the big Olympic training centers.
Adam Peaty But yeah, the federation have never reached
out to me about anything to do with with development or and I
don't mean in a paid role, but kind of like, hey, you know,
it's just before world champs. You've been Junior World champ,
senior world champion, you know,Olympian.
You know, not many Brits have actually been to the Olympics

(14:08):
because it's the same people over and over again.
So they don't have much experience.
I think it at this Olympic training center, which is the
biggest one, there's only one Olympian that trains there, and
that's Alex Yi. Don't get me wrong, He's won the
hell of a lot of medals. And Cass was based here as well,
but she's moved. But, you know, so, yeah, I have
to bite my tongue a lot. But no, I just say enjoy the
journey. You know, the landscape's

(14:30):
changing. You know, when we we when I was
younger, it was very much the better you were, the the further
you would go. But now there's that element of
social media and what not, so definitely professional sport.
Small because we're very much a fringe professional sport.
There is more to it than than just performance, that much is
for sure. I'm curious for in in your

(14:50):
perspective because you have seen in this sport since truly
its infancy, only a decade or so, you know, was it born, I
guess before you started to become a professional.
In your eyes, what needs to happen before it's no longer
considered a fringe sport? Is it a number?
Is it a feeling? I think it's that acceptance

(15:11):
that people talk about it. You know, it's very much in the
UK, if I was at an airport, not now when I was, you know, five
years ago, if an athlete was at an airport and they had their
bike bag and someone says, oh, oh, what do you, what do you do?
So I'm a professional triathlete.
They would go, oh, have you beento the Olympics?
Well, everyone's going to say nobecause there aren't that many.
When you're in America, the samething happens.

(15:32):
First of all, they go, are you in a band?
And I'm like, what? And they're like, no, it's not
a. Drunk dealer like what the hell?
Yeah, totally. And then I'm like, no, I do
triathlon and they go, hey, haveyou been to Hawaii?
So no matter what you do, they're asking you 2 questions.
Have you been to the biggest race in the world, the Olympics
and probably the second biggest race in the world, Hawaii.
That is how that is our sport toeveryone.

(15:54):
And that's the cycle. We need to break T100 the hell
of a trying. You know, now we've got this pro
series, they're trying world triathlon.
Unfortunately, they're very muchin that four year Cycle World
triathlon, kind of like they gettheir funding from the IOC.
So they just very much care about that.
So you know, it it it's how do we become not a fringe sport?

(16:16):
It's going to take time. I mean, you know, kind of like
what the first Olympics were what 19 O 4.
You know, we, we were in the Olympics in 2000.
Now we've got 2 medals in there.1989 in Avignon when Mark Allen
won. That was the first ever world
triathlon. Kona started in kind of like 78,
but for the year I was born, butthat was very much, you know,

(16:36):
didn't grow into the business until about what 10 years ago.
So we are moving at lightspeed. It's just going to take time.
I think now, you know, I think now we've got a big Dr.
globally, especially in the first world about healthy
living. And I think triathlon can really
capitalize on that, especially with the youth, you know,
through schools, you know, swimming is a is a major skill

(16:57):
that we need every kid to be able to swim just for, I mean,
survival. They drown, you know, running,
anyone can run, you know, riding, yes, bikes are getting
more expensive, but on the otherend, they're also getting a lot
cheaper. So, you know, but then again,
it's a business now and, and in grassroots, there's not much
money to be made. I think, you know, we need to

(17:20):
what's the right word? We need to kind of like, you
know, put on a pedestal the the,you know, Kat Matthews, the
Laura Phillips, the Alex Yee, Cassandra Beaugrand, Leo
Beaujeir, you know, we need to put these so so the younger ones
have someone to look at, but at the same time, you know, we need
to invest, you know, into that kind of like pipeline of, of
getting out. You know, I know running is

(17:40):
running is having a crazy boom at the moment, you know, with
with all of these fringe runningevents and whatnot.
Definitely in Europe and I definitely think triathlon is is
normally two or three years behind that.
So hopefully we do see that thatupturn.
But yeah, I don't know the magicword.
How do you think you know we canbecome a mainstream sport?
And I have no idea. I, I think just as it continues

(18:02):
to grow, it's like with anything, I think the best
things that turn into long lasting trends or businesses or
bands, whatever it is, it's theygot to start small and, and
maintain that slow, steady growth.
I think an oak tree takes a longtime to grow into maturity,
starting out very small. But if you have things like, you

(18:23):
know, you mentioned earlier, like the Silicon Valley of
endurance sport here in the US, like Silicon Valley for so long
has valued this idea of coming up with an idea, throwing
millions and millions of dollarsbehind it, trying to grow it and
lose tons of money upfront. And then hopefully, you know,
turn into a Unicorn. You can sell it for a billion
dollars later. And you know that that rarely
happens when you look at the total number of companies

(18:46):
started. And often times you're growing a
bunch of weeds really fast and they look really impressive.
But then the first sign of a storm, it blows them over.
So I think for endurance sport, like, yeah, it's, it's got to
just continue to grow slow and steady.
I think sometimes we'll put the cart before the horse when, you
know, there's a lot of money being put out there for
something. And I understand like T100, for
example, like there's a lot of somebody's got deep pockets

(19:08):
where they they see a future andthey're investing in that.
But right now it's not sustainable.
So we'll see how like the horse gets back in front of the car
and at what point that happens. It's not to say that that stuff
can't happen and growth spurts don't happen, but yeah, I don't,
I don't really know. I mean, it seems pretty big to
me at this point compared to even when I started getting into

(19:28):
it, you know, maybe what, 6 years ago.
So I don't know. I don't want it to become like a
Formula One thing where it's like it becomes all about the
money and and just times becausethen you lose that community
almost like the religious aspectof what triathlon is.
And I, yeah, I don't want it to become like that because, you
know, I do. I coach some, I coach as well,

(19:49):
and I coach some amateurs. And to them, it's their life.
And if it was just that kind of Formula, One kind of pathway we
were taking, and no, I, I don't think it will go that way
because it's got, you know, as you said, some of the oldest
triathlons in the world are not necessarily the big kind of.
I don't know, Wildflower, Chicago, the London Triathlon
Blend, you know, they are the small local swimming pool based

(20:11):
triathlon and there is that strong community.
But I think we forget, you know,like, you know, the likes of Sam
Renouf, PTO and Michael Dolce, who's the CEO of Super Try.
You know that they have investors and they're trying to
grow the sport as quickly as possible for a return.
And that's brilliant. But sometimes maybe when you've
got World Triathlon, you've got Super Try, you've got T100,

(20:33):
you've got Challenge, you've gotIron Man and it's kind of like
all these branch. And if they could come to, you
know, we're definitely we're stronger together, but we've all
got different business models and different, they've all got
different kind of pay masters. Yeah, yeah.
So yeah, yeah, at the moment, I think it's a hell of a hell.
I think it's pretty healthy for professionals anyway.
Oh yeah, for sure. There's a lot more opportunity

(20:54):
to make a living than there usedto not be.
I'm curious, going back a littlebit to the interpersonal stuff,
would you consider yourself a person that operates more from
your head or more from your heart?
Probably more from my head, I think, yeah, I'm very, as I'm
very practical, you know, being a performance all my life.
And, you know, it's not by chance.

(21:17):
Athletes are good, you know, especially having the longevity
of a career. You definitely have to be smart
and, you know, calculated. So yeah, I'll definitely, yeah,
I would say I've made more of mysmarter decisions with my head,
not my heart in sport in. Sport, Yeah.
What about extroverted versus introverted?
Like you seem to be a relativelyextroverted person, but is that

(21:40):
accurate? No, I no, I don't think so.
I think I'm passionate about triathlon, so you get me talking
about triathlon. But in terms of I'm not the kind
of guy that's going to walk intoa bar or a party and have
everyone round me, you know, that's definitely not me.
Yeah, I would say in that that social side, you know, I've got
some great friends and and I really enjoy them, but I'm

(22:01):
definitely not. Yeah, I'll definitely say I'm
not an extrovert, but I love triathlon and I'm, you know, I
see myself more of a custodian, you know, kind of because this
sport, you know, as we said, it is healthy at the moment.
But we don't know what's around the corner.
If one of these big investors pulls out or, you know, Iron Man
decides to sell for this insane amount of money somewhere and
they break it up, split it, split it, you know, all of a

(22:23):
sudden what's happening in the US with trying to get permits to
race, kind of like, and all of asudden half of these, you know,
races disappear. So yeah, I'm, I'm definitely,
you know, passionate about that,but I don't think I'm an
extrovert. Yeah, yeah.
What do you do to recharge? Like what helps you to feel like
you're you're getting back to a place where you can have the
outward connection with people again?

(22:46):
I think time with my family and friends, you know, that goes,
you know, I've sacrificed a lot,you know, professional athletes
have, you know, growing up and you know, I know my family has
definitely sacrificed a lot. You know, I dragged my wife and
young daughter, you know, we emigrated to America for, you
know, when they were young and now we're back here.
So, you know, with that they've done a lot for me.

(23:07):
So for me spending time with them, that helps centre me I
guess and puts balance in my life.
Beautiful. So we, I talked a little bit
earlier, asked you the question like who is Tim according to
you? And you gave some really good
examples of the things kind of that you do and, and even hinted
at the values that your parents gave you.
And then you are now passing on to your children and likely a

(23:27):
lot of the people that you interact with on a daily basis.
So I kind of want to ask this question circled around
identity. There are kind of three
identities I think that most of us deal with in our lives.
It's the identity of who our parents, family, close friends
see us as. So there's kind of that, that
box. And then there's the other one
where you have the like personalview of yourself, like who Tim

(23:50):
is or who Seth is. And then there is the view of,
for Someone Like You, the view of the fans.
So they don't know you personally.
They see you on the interviews to see what the races you know
on TV, they get kind of this snippet of who you are, which is
a hardly a reflection of like your entirety of who you are.
So for you as a person, as you have grown older and become more

(24:14):
solidified in being comfortable with who you see and know
yourself to be, how have you dealt with those different
external pressures to kind of like fit you in a box of who Tim
is, if that makes sense? I think First off, when I was
younger, that third one didn't really count because there was a

(24:34):
magazine, there was a triathlon magazine once a month and you
might have got a photo in it with a, with a.
And Tim LED out the swim. He got dropped on the bike and
he had a, you know, that there was, you know, it's a different
world to, to when I was younger,younger.
And as I said, now I'm 47, you know, I, I post on social media.
So, yeah, I mean, I think you'vegot to evolve with with what's

(24:57):
happening around with you, especially with what I do kind
of, I guess my my job is that isa heavy part of it.
But I think first of all, I haveto be, I guess, content with who
I am and who I want to be. And that's hard for everyone
because as soon as you look at social media and read comments,
then it's like, oh, maybe that'snot me or maybe, you know,
because I'm by no means famous, but definitely within our world,

(25:22):
you know, what you say, what I say carries value.
And you know, not everyone agrees with everything.
And so that there is always that, that kind of like you're
trying to please everyone and bytrying to please everyone, you
don't please anyone. So, but it's hard to to stick by
your your laurels because it is triathlon is polarizing you, you
know, it's either you're either that way or the other way.

(25:42):
There's, you know, because it isa small sport.
Yeah. So for me, I definitely I
definitely look inward and you've got to be happy with who
who you are. And that is hard at times
because you know, then you know,I guess you're it's only
probably a handful of friends that you go through your whole
life really knowing. And you know, I think I would

(26:03):
have definitely, I keep people more arms, arms reach, whether
that's intentional or not. But I think that's just a coping
mechanism you have as a professional athlete because
people don't judge you on your performance.
They judge you on your result. No one knows what you did to get
there. Kind of like people are talking
maybe what's happened to ChelseaSadara, man, she's racing

(26:25):
terrible, but no one truly knowswhat's going on with Chelsea
Sadara except for probably 5 people in this world.
And the people are so quick to judge and point fingers and
common. And so I'm I'm definitely yeah,
I keep I keep that kind of thingat arms length.
And, and I think because I haven't been born into it,
because I'm, I'm, I'm old, it, it's harder older to, to change

(26:46):
that. But I do think the youth, when I
say youth like the, the juniors coming up the the future Alex
Yees, Jan Ferdinos, you know, the, the Sebastian Kinlay's, the
Daniela Reef now she's retired. You know, God, man, what's going
to happen in 10 years? It's going to be like virtual
reality AI, you know, I don't know what's where.
Yeah, that's all going there. Yeah, that's interesting.

(27:09):
Like because I think that it goes a long way to say that no
one has truly still figured it out.
It is so hard in a sport like triathlon or any endurance or it
really any sport to not allow the external factors of what
people view us as the results rather than the long term

(27:30):
performance to define who we are.
Why do you think that it is so easy for us as a human species
to read a few comments? Let's say one of them is -5 of
them are positive and that, thatone -1 like really eats at us so
much deeper and it's harder to cope with, I think.
It's just human nature. I think we're, we're, I think we

(27:51):
want to please. We want to, you know, we want
to, we want to show off one of abetter word.
We threw up, you know, and, and you know, we want people to like
us. We want to be seen.
And yeah, so it is. It's always that one negative
comment. And the person that wrote it has
probably forgotten that. Oh, yeah.
Did I write that? Oh, I didn't mean it like that.
I was just, you know, clickbait and whatnot.

(28:13):
And it's like, oh, Jeezy, that really, really pissed me off for
a couple of days. And yeah.
And I guess that the more profile and public you are, the
more public your profile is, themore that's likely to happen and
the more likely, you know, but it's not very, not very often.
It's from your peers kind of like which is, but then, yeah,
we are, we do polarize on, on that.

(28:35):
And and that that is that is I guess human nature to to to
focus on the not the negative. Well, I guess the negative to a
degree. Talk to me about the level of
contentment that you find right now with where you are
personally. I think that, I mean, I mean,
yeah, I mean I am content, but you know, God, you, I worry for

(28:57):
my kids, you know, there's always something going on, you
know, whether it's this issue atschool or that issue or, you
know, they want to do this and they oh, they don't do a PB and
everyone else has and they're not the only one or they get the
maths test back and and that affects me, that affects my
wife, you know, because, you know, God, you do anything for
them. So I think, I think content, I

(29:17):
do think though, you know, throughout my, especially
towards the end of my, well, very much towards the end of my
career, you know, I did get curtailed really short, you
know, when I was in my prime, you know, that's no, everyone
knows about about what happened in 2017 and then COVID came.
So I didn't really get a chance.So, you know, in terms of like
looking back and saying, was I content in my career?
I definitely think I was. I was, I was, you know, I think,

(29:43):
I think the highs are so high and that's what everyone sees.
But man, the lows are so low andno one sees that kind of like,
you know, like, you know, like, Gee, anfordino's done nothing in
the last month or two. I wonder, I wonder how he's
feeling. But it's like who what people
have already forgotten about him.
And you know, it is it is crazy.I think, and I'm not saying you

(30:03):
should always wake up thinking, Oh, what did those old athletes
do and whatnot. But when you live so much of
your life in the public eye and now the, the younger ones, you
know, you've got this the Hungarian sensation Fanny Salah,
who I've been a part of, you know, trying to help her out,
you know, God, she's just turned17 and she's raised 2 super try
series. She hasn't lost the continental

(30:24):
ETU Junior Cup, you know, and there were athletes when I was
younger exactly as good, but no one knew about them because
there was no social media. It was just a name on it.
And you didn't even get all the international race results
because if they weren't in your,you know, the, the English 220,
the French, you know, triathlon magazine, the English triathlon

(30:44):
magazine, the American and no one knew about them.
So yeah, I think yeah. So I I would say I'm relatively
content, but but also, yeah, getfrustrated a hell of a lot.
Yeah, for sure. Is there a, do you see any level
of preparation or training beinggiven to the mental aspect of
these younger athletes that are coming up in a world where you

(31:05):
can become, you know, a little bit famous, like kind of
overnight, especially even within the sport.
And that start that in the yearsof development.
I would imagine that plays a lotof havoc if there's not proper
understanding given to what it means to be in the public eye.
Like what matters, what doesn't,That kind of stuff.
I would say no. There's zero training going on

(31:27):
into that because everyone around them most people around
them are like hell yeah, you know like Reese Van Banniston.
I mean, damn, he's you know, I saw him two years ago at super
try yeah, raw talent, sub 4 minute mile and need to work on
his swim project podium got a great, you know, and and
everything is all hunky Dory now, But when he gets a stress

(31:49):
reaction or a stress fracture inhis femur, do you know what I
mean? It's kind of like, Oh well, he
was running too much. Oh well, he got quick to.
Everybody anecdotally throws it on him.
Yeah, do. You know what I mean?
It's like you're damn, you know,everyone loves you.
And then you know, he's not, he's not linear.
He's not just going to podium, you know, get a bronze medal in
LA and then go to, you know, then just just go win, win, win.

(32:12):
So no, I think I'm, you know, itis, it is not a performance
program. It is a result USAT, British
triathlon, German Federation, Deutsche Triathlon.
It is they get funding from the government to win medals, not to
develop an athlete to be the best they can to develop an
athlete to win a medal. And in the past, I've definitely
experienced it with young athletes in the British system

(32:32):
and seen it with athletes from different, different federations
where where things have been done wrong to chase that result
because that, that, that, that was what the that that was their
job. You know, eggs are thrown at
wall and hopefully one of them doesn't break as young athletes
have been pushed. You know, the the famous story.
Paula Finlay, you know, at London Olympics, how upset she

(32:53):
was, you know, she's racing, full on crying, etcetera, you
know, because, you know, she hadan injury.
But the federation said no, no, go, go.
You know, it's like, you know, you know, now I'm wiser, but but
can I affect that? No.
Because if you say, if you say no, no, no, don't do that extra
race, don't do that, Don't do this.
Someone else will. And then they'll get the spot on
the Olympic team and you won't. And it's just like, damn.

(33:15):
Yeah, but that's professional sport kind of isn't it?
You know? I mean, you know, would you
rather a quarterback for your team have a three-year build or
would you rather they'd hammer the crap out of him so he's
fricking throwing Hail Marys or whatever they're called all the
time, touch our passes all the time.
You know, it's human nature to to to to want that and not see
beyond that polarizing result and that brilliance.

(33:39):
So yeah, it's a crazy. World.
Yeah, there's a crazy world, especially in the world of like
any of these speed sports where it comes down to a finish line
rather than like who can lift the most weight or whatever.
It's a matter of milliseconds between total world fame and
domination to complete obscurity.
The guy who got fourth, who is, you know, a few tenths of a

(34:01):
second behind Usain Bolt or whoever else, It's like that's
completely forgotten. But I'm wondering, do you think
that it could change because we both, you know, kind of have
this belief? Well, that's that's endurance
sport or that sport in general. That's how how things get
treated. That's the federation.
Do you think that any substantial time, energy or even
money funding would be put on orcould or should be put behind?

(34:24):
Not only just sports psychology,but just like the pure mental
preparation with how to deal with pressure, how to show up
to, you know, a swim meet and like, ignore the crowd, be in
the moment. Like a lot of these key aspects
kind of circle back to a happy athlete is a fast athlete, which
I truly do believe. But at the end of the day, they
don't say that. You know, nobody cares when

(34:45):
they're watching NBC Olympics. What kind of mental state those
swimmers are? They just want to see them go
fast. So it's like, do you think that
that could change? It yes, will it most probably
not, but yeah, I mean that wouldbe and I think you know, to a
degree unintentionally maybe like the T100 and Iron Man pro
series yeah, having a series I does do think helps that

(35:07):
development. I but then I grew up one day,
one race you turn up, you know, you win, you know, you win or
you don't end of. And that is hard because you
get, you know, one shot every year at the world title and now
to be the T100 world title to win super try it's, it's a, it's
a series. French Grand Prix is a series.

(35:29):
You know, all of these professional races and that that
is good. But then you know, like I, I, I
know coaches in the UK who have coached athletes to junior and
under 23 world titles and then they get put on funding and then
they said you can't coach them anymore.
You have to be coached by a federation coach and is that,
you know, just a good junior coach doesn't mean they're a

(35:50):
good senior coach, but it's kindof like very much forced upon
so. But it's a game because it's a
results program. They're in control of it now.
They can control every aspect ofthat of those athletes going
forward. And I don't agree with that at
all, but that's the system. Yeah.
And that's, you know, you know, and maybe you know, the way kind
of like, yeah, I think at the end of the day, it comes down to

(36:12):
it's it's a business. Professional sport is a business
and it's a business about winning.
Maybe now it's a business about and, and what is winning?
Winning is crossing the line first.
But then someone like Lionel Saunders, you know, you know,
his best races are definitely behind him in my my opinion,
probably get slated for saying that, but his his his idea of
winning is YouTube likes it is, you know, being in the public

(36:34):
eye is signing another 6 figure contract with Canyon and Canyon.
They're going to do that becausehe's doing all of this, you
know, he has. And, you know, the training he
does, you know, Oh my God, is that healthy for the young guys
to do it? Probably not.
But that's what he wants to do and that's how he does it.
So oh man, fair play to him, youknow?

(36:54):
Yeah, everyone's so unique and different.
Yeah, I guess there's a lot I can say about Lionel, but I kind
of want to shift gears a little bit for you.
I so I listened to the podcast with Tim Ford that you guys just
recently, recently released. And obviously that was super
deep. And I will preface this by
saying before we dive into thesetopics.

(37:14):
So I've been through some crazy stuff, not physically to the
level that you have, but just soyou know, like being held at
gunpoint. My father passed away when I was
super young. So in terms of like different
aspects of trauma have experienced it and in different
fashions and ways. And I know that bringing those
things up can really crawl 'cause even like a physical
stress response in the body. So anything you don't want to

(37:35):
talk about, that's totally fine and we could move on and away
from it. But there were some things that
I heard when you were talking with Tim that I wanted to touch
on. If it's OK with you specifically
around after your accident in 2017, you became pretty
depressed and you told the storyof how even when you were doing
the the documentary, I think it's called Halo, is that right?

(37:58):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. The man with the Halo.
The man with the Halo. Yeah.
So we'll, we'll link that in theshow notes.
But you said that you were like,you know, more or less faking
being active again and having tobe positive.
And that depression that you came upon, you know, you
explained it as being like something you'd never really
truly experienced before. So my first question is around

(38:19):
the topic of depression because I think a lot of people can get
pulled into this for many of different reasons.
Did you have a true understanding of what depression
was before that accident and youhad having that experience?
From a third party, yes, becausethey're people I've known who
have gone through, you know, tough times and being depressed.

(38:42):
But I think that's how they, howyou experience it might be how
different. It's definitely different how I
experience, you know, you're, you're, you know, I think when
when you're in that, when you, when you are in that moment,
that is not necessarily exactly kind of if I cut my finger and
you cut your finger, we've cut our fingers, but how depression,

(39:03):
say manifests in my mind is different to your mind,
etcetera. So you try and help people out
who who have struggled with various elements of their life.
But I think when it happens to you and I think in the moment,
there was so much going on that,you know, it's just kind of
like, well, this is what happens, you know, kind of like,
you know, So no, I, I, I think, I don't think before then I

(39:25):
truly experienced what it was like to, to go through something
like that because I guess I was,how old was I then?
3839, I was fortunate that my life had been pretty good.
Yes you have ups and downs, but not not not to that deep.
Yeah, yeah, so. And you were going through
periods when like you weren't sleeping much.
You're very uncomfortable. I couldn't sleep.

(39:47):
Jesus Christ had this scrutiny. Yeah, I sat in a sat in a chair.
I slept in a chair like this. Did you ever physically you
couldn't, you couldn't sleep? Did you start hallucinating at
all? Like from just the lack of
sleep, like being able to function?
I mean, if I lose one day of sleep, I turn into a zombie and
I'm quite a horrible person. Oh, I think no, no, I

(40:10):
definitely, I don't think I hallucinated, but I was on like
I would say for the first three weeks I was genuinely on heavy
meds and not, not for my neck, not for the pain from the brake,
but just having like these screws that had to be tightened
directly into your to what is it, 6 Newton meters.
So yeah, no, yeah, no, I definitely didn't hallucinate or
anything like that. But but again, you know, yeah, I

(40:32):
mean, I would sleep because again, I had to sleep upright
and I was living in Boulder and it's so freaking dry in Boulder.
Like when we first moved there, we invested into chapsticks, you
know, because I let you crack in, you know, you blow your nose
and your bodies like, and literally, and I'd get cotton,
we call it cottonmouth. So because I'd sleep upright and

(40:54):
when you sleep like bolt upright, you're and I'd
literally get woken up because, oh, I couldn't, my mouth was so
dry. And we had humidifiers, not
dehumidifiers. No, we had humidifiers.
Yeah. We tried so much, so many
things. And it was just, it was like
probably until I could lay down.And then we invested in a

(41:17):
hospital bed because it can, it can move.
So I could lay an angle with my legs up and whatnot.
Until then, yeah. No, I really, I would probably
say, I'd say for the first even I was heavily medicated for the
pain. I I really wasn't getting more
than 20 minutes at a go, you know, you know, at sleep.
And yeah. So yeah, it's pretty hard.

(41:39):
And my son then, gosh, so 1415, he was only three.
So, yeah, he was. You know, it's pretty.
Yeah, pretty hard. Yeah, I can imagine being able
to make it through like on a day-to-day through something
like that. I'm curious what kind of just
like, mental battles were going on internally because I know

(41:59):
people who have had to go through any level of like
extreme discomfort or pain or I think of like military stories,
like usually there's some kind of anchor that they're holding
on to or a semblance of hope or something.
Did you have that? Yeah, I mean, for me it was the
reason I chose the Halo is so I could go back to race.
And you know, as I've said all along, when I was in hospital in

(42:20):
Kona until they told me my neck was broken, I took no pain meds
because I believed I was going to race because they told.
I just presumed when I was laying there that I'd broken my
collarbone. And when they X-rayed and said
it wasn't broken, I was like, well, I might not swim that well
and I probably won't. I won't be fine for the podium,
but I was in the best shape. Just broken the Iron Man world
record. Just got third at world 70 point

(42:41):
freeze. And I was the first, the heavy
one and Ben Canute was second. I was the first Iron Man Kona
guy, you know, So I was like, I was, you know, if you look at
statistically speaking, that wasa shot, a genuine shot to get on
the podium in Kona. And for me, you know, that was
the goal. That was the goal.
And and until they said, no, you're next broken.

(43:02):
I was like, yeah, I guess I'm not racing then.
And then again, then it's like you've got to, I guess, you
know, retire. But I wasn't even thinking.
It's like, well, it's my job. What else am I going to do?
It's a bone. It's going to heal.
It's going to take time. What is the how is the best way
to get back is to have this Halo, not the fusion and not the
Aspen collar, like basically a soft neck brace and just hope

(43:24):
for the best, you know? So, so the thing that I was
hanging on is, is it is going toend because your body's going to
get, you know, the younger guys are going to get quicker.
But on my terms. And that was it.
It was my terms. And, you know, and that was all
that was what helped me by making the documentary was I can
express that. And yeah, maybe I in hindsight,

(43:45):
should I done a marathon six months after breaking my neck?
Absolutely not. But but that is that, that I
guess that's that drivenness that a professional athlete has
of, of, of, of, of wanting to dosomething no one's done, of
wanting to, to go above and beyond and, you know, push the
body and push the limits. So, and that was what was
driving me. You know, was it crazy at times?

(44:07):
Absolutely. My wife would, would still say,
you know, the things I was doingkind of like, you know, I was
getting massages, you know, because I was getting so stiff
because I couldn't move my wholespine.
And, and they were like, I wouldloosen the the Halo here.
So then my Sir could loosen the muscles there.
But by doing that, it was loosening the screws.
So yeah, my back felt much better then.

(44:28):
But then I'd have to go and I'd have to tighten them.
So I was in an immense pain because, you know, I, I had to
get a fifth screw drilled in because they got, it was getting
deeper into my skull. So yeah, you are, you do make.
Yeah, you are in that, you know,once I got through that initial
kind of pain, I think it was andyou know, that that I guess loss

(44:49):
of not being able to stand on the start line, you know, then
it was, it was all hell bent to get back, you know, because
that's my identity. That's my whole life, you know
that That's that's what, yeah, that's all I've done.
Yeah. When did when did you start to
come to the realization of the realities of what your future
looked like versus the expectation that you had

(45:11):
originally set on yourself? Because like you were at the
pinnacle, like you said. No, I mean, you know, probably
not for another year because I kind of did Boston and that kind
of I knew I could train then. Then it was just a case of
getting fitter than I did. My first 70.3 was Costa Rica.

(45:31):
So I got that was back in the points system.
So we had to get points. So I think I won that, got 500
points and then we worked out tobe top 50 in the world.
I had to get 8th in an Iron Man.So then we ramped the training
up and then that's when I started to get, I've been very
fortunate with my body touch wood, but I haven't had crazy
injuries throughout my career because I've been, I've always

(45:52):
backed off. You know, I'm quite happy to
walk home and not run home and pull a calf.
You know, I, I, I've got no shame in that at all.
I wish more athletes were like that.
Their careers would, would be a lot longer.
And, and I think I, I, I startedto get all these issues with my
hip and then when my, when my leg, my ankle and Achilles and

(46:12):
you know, I've run some fast times on the track.
I've trained a lot in tracks fights back in the day and I've
never had issues like this. And basically what it was is
your head's bloody heavy. And instead of my head being
that, that if my head was like that, that extra weight has
shifted down the body. And then I realized, A, this
isn't good. I need to sort it out and B Man,

(46:35):
I can't just jump out of bed andgo for a run anymore because I'm
38, I'm 39. And yeah, so it was a slow
realization. And then I went to my first Iron
Man and I finished 9th and I hadto finish 8th.
And that was Hamburg. And there was one more race to
go. And that's when Iron Man phoned
me up and they said, oh, we'll give you a start in Kona anyway.
And I was like, mate, it's too late for that.

(46:55):
You should have offered me that start the day I broke my neck
and says we will come, you can come.
And they didn't. So then I had to go and do a
bloody other Iron Man and and that Iron Man, I couldn't finish
because my hip was so sore. So I wasn't going to cone up.
And I was like, well, that's it,I have to find another goal.
But I was ranked 5051 in the world and they take the top 50.
It was at 52 and they take 51 because the winner carried over

(47:18):
and basically one of the athletes, can't remember who it
was, wasn't Matt Hanson. It was one of the athletes who
was ranked ahead of me, decided they didn't want to go to Kona.
They turned down. So at a certain date, everyone
gets an e-mail fill in the form you're going to Kona and
basically you get a certain window and they phoned or they
met that I guess they emailed them and said, are you going?
They said no. So there's a roll down.

(47:39):
So it rolled down and I was #1 on the roll down.
So so I did get in. I earned my slot by being first
reserved as opposed to hey, here's a free card and there's
an extra person and, and whatnot.
And I think then I realized I need closure.
So I really desperately wanted to go back to Kona.
And my preparation was as best as it could have been.
But I knew deep down, I knew I couldn't do what I'd done

(48:03):
before. My body wasn't the same body.
And it certainly I was old, you know, all those, all those years
of how we didn't have super foamy shoes back in the day.
Yeah, we didn't have the understanding.
We weren't fuelling. God, even, even when I was
scientific, my first 70.3, you took two gels on the bike, you
know, let alone what Mark and Dave did, you know, back in the

(48:25):
the 80s. So yeah, then, then, then I
knew. But I still wanted to enjoy it.
So, you know, I then started to do other things.
I found other challenges. I went to the Paralympics as a
guide for an athlete I went to. I started to do different races
like Patagon man, and you know, races I'd always wanted to do
growing up. So yeah, and that's when I

(48:45):
started to start to coach athletes and look into other
things. And I loved the sport.
TV was becoming more popular, especially kind of like YouTube.
So I've got into the commentary through Super Try and being
heavily involved with them. So I know just from a little bit
of experience that going throughanything tough, it takes many
years. And I don't think in a lot of
cases, like when you grieve the loss of a person or in your case

(49:09):
really like a piece of you died that day.
If we're being like truly blunt,do you feel like that you have
worked through that process of just grief and anger and like
all of it? No, I mean do you truly ever get
a get over a life changing event?
You know, they say a pro athletedies twice, once when they die

(49:31):
and once when, you know, they'retold yeah, but are not told.
But the realization of that yourwhole life work has to end.
You know, it's like cutting off Picasso's hands or, you know, I
don't know, telling Ed Sheeran. I'm not saying I'm Picasso or Ed
Sheeran, but you know. Pretty much you're there.
They can't, they can't, they can't make music anymore.
And it's like, what are you going to do whether you've got

(49:52):
millions or not? What the hell are you going to
do for the rest of your life? Kind of yeah.
So, you know, no one prepares you for that.
I know on working on the athleteprogram, which is something to
help retired athletes very much geared towards track and field
runners. But, you know, obviously
Nicholas, obviously Nicholas Spirit is heavily involved with
on as well. And she she she's trying to, you
know, you know, pave that way for for retired athletes.

(50:15):
I know there's a university in America, I think.
Is it Dartmouth or Exmouth at Dartmouth?
Is there a university or college?
Yeah, Dartmouth. And they're doing a like a
they're doing like a course, I think a three month course,
which rate there. Have you heard of Rachel Joyce?
I haven't, no. Oh man, she's got podium dot
Kona like 3 times. She's she's won rock, you know,

(50:38):
you know, she's an amazing woman, an amazing athlete.
She went on that course and thatreally.
And they do like a three or fourmonth course to help you
transition kind of use your skill set into the business
world. So.
But no, I mean, I mean, yeah, I haven't seeked counselling or,
you know, sports psychologist orjust a psychologist help me

(51:00):
through that. I think, you know, as I say, you
know, those kind of that that wasn't really talked about.
It wasn't a thing when you were younger, you know, in
professional sport. Now it is for sure.
Yeah. Mental health.
I'm not saying it didn't exist, did it?
You're either one of a better word.
I don't know you're either. Normal or.

(51:20):
Crazy weren't up for the You weren't up for the task or you
were up for the task. And if you weren't up for the
task, it doesn't matter how close you were.
It's like, Nope, see ya. But now, yeah, we are in a much
better world where the mind is seen as you've got to train it,
you know, in, in, I think even in life being, being, train it

(51:41):
to be happy, train it to be successful, whatever that,
whatever successes in your life,you know.
Do you have you considered goingin, working through like through
some kind of counselling or therapy?
I don't know. It's not that I have.
Have I considered or not considered?

(52:01):
I've never really thought about it.
I wouldn't know where to start. I wouldn't know, you know, you
don't remember mate, I'm 47, there's a lot to offload.
That means it's time. I mean, you know, I, I'll throw
this in there. So I'm not comparing my mother
to you and the there's the different types of experiences.

(52:21):
You are, you're obviously two different people.
You're a high performing athlete, have been involved in
many different things. But I will say this, my mom,
she's a little older than you. She's like 5056 or something
like that. So after my dad died, like he
died in traumatic way, he took his life, right?
So she found him for to be completely frank like that

(52:43):
messed her up for many years. But she had held this belief for
so long that she like had to be the strength of our family,
which was me and my two sisters.And, and she really was, and in
so many ways, like I'm very indebted to my mother to be able
to have the life that I have because she made so many
incredible sacrifices like we were making.
She had no money, but somehow wealways had a roof up her head.
We always had food to eat. We even went to private schools.

(53:06):
And somehow she made all that work.
But for so long, it was until like that literally like 2 years
ago when she finally started to realize like, oh, you know, like
I, my kids are grown and I can kind of start to look, turn the
camera around a little bit and look at what's going on
internally. And she started to go and just
seek some therapy for some of the very basic stuff because I

(53:26):
think she held a similar mindset.
I was like, I got so many thingsI got to work through, but I
think I'm fine. I'm strong.
Now again, I'm not comparing that to you per SE, but I I
would dare to say that if you did unload some of those things,
it could only enrich your life in in a better way because you
already offer so many pieces of wisdom and help, I'm sure to all

(53:48):
these different athletes that you work through.
But I wish selfishly that I could view just through some of
those sessions would look like, because it's such an amazing
thing. Once for me.
And eternally. I have so many things that'll be
going on inside that I'll be thinking about and kind of
talking to in my head. But then when I actually
verbalize them to a third party who really they're just asking

(54:09):
questions, it ends up like, oh, wow, that that doesn't make as
much as I thought it did in my head or, or something like that.
But yeah, coming from a 30 year old who you know, has 20 years
less experienced than you do forwhatever, that's right.
But I definitely think, and I can see, you know, maybe why
your mom did what she did, you know, just because it's kind of

(54:33):
like, you know, we've seen in, we say stiff up a lip, kind of
like, you know, sweep it under the carpet and carry on and
carry on. Be calm.
That's absolutely. And that's how we were bought
up. That's how my parents were
bought up, you know, at school very much.
I got bought up a very Catholic school.
I was taught by nuns for the first eight years, you know, So

(54:54):
it's very much these are this isthis is just tradition.
This is how it is. And now it's kind of like, well,
so many people depend on me in different ways.
My two kids, my, you know, my family, you know.
Yeah. And yeah.
So, yeah, maybe I should, right.Yeah.
I'll go. I'll put it out there on social.

(55:14):
You should man, I I think it would be really awesome.
It's it's always been a bunch of.
Sessions with the Thorn. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Do it, man. Do it.
But you got to remember though, it's not as common.
I don't know comments, but it's not like, like I'm not saying no
one does it in the but like there are not as many therapists
in the UK as there are in America because it is just not.
I'm not saying it's not a done thing or, or it's not seen as

(55:35):
not being accepted. It definitely is being seen more
accepted now that it's it's not a not a weakness, but but unless
you're kind of like living in a big city and I live in the
middle of God that you know the practicalities of it and you
know, there aren't maybe there aren't as many kind of skilled
therapists that can take on the Don.

(55:56):
But you have to, you have to shop around.
I'll say that because people threw me into counselling like
when I was 16 in the beginning. They're like, here, take these
crayons and draw a story or drawa picture of what your life is.
And I just drew like a big blackcircle.
To be facetious was like, here'smy life.
Yeah. Absolutely.
But it takes a lot of a lot of kind of shopping around to find.
The right person We we had sports psychologists with the

(56:16):
federation and I was like, really OK.
And I sit them and they were like, so Tim, lots of your
traffic lights are amber. We don't want them to turn red.
We want them to turn green. That's what you need to focus
on. And I'm just like, I don't I
don't understand that. What the hell?
I mean, like I understand what atraffic light is, but like
comparing my life to a traffic, like what that I don't

(56:37):
understand it. I'm sorry.
You know it's. Not in the Federation.
We're like, no, you, this is brilliant.
You've got to see them again. I'm like, sure, yeah, OK, I'll
try and turn these amber lights into green and then we go, go,
go. Yeah, now there's a there's.
Very much from a performance, though.
But you know, those sports psychologists, it's all about,
it's not about getting the best out of you.
It's about getting that freakingresult.
They're going to be judged. Yeah.

(56:58):
Well, I, I was Tim. I was.
I don't know. Who's that?
Yeah, totally. I was like Gwen Yorgenson's
leading up to Rio. I was her sports psychologist
and she won gold. I'm.
I'm brilliant. And it's like, whoa, but what
about her? What about what she wants in her
life? Why did she give up triathlon
when she was at the pinnacle andnot not not race a triathlon for
so many years? You know, is that I'm not

(57:19):
throwing a therapist under the bus.
I don't even know if she had one.
I'm not picking on Gran either. So I love he's an athlete, but
you do you know what I mean? No, Yeah. 100% freaking results
thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
How many people are? Yeah.
To come into a conversation, yeah, like that, you got to find
the right person. And there's a balance, too,
because a lot of people, I think, hide behind this facade
of, you know, the mental health I'm, you know, I'm disabled in

(57:41):
this way. And it's like, yes, there are
very real mental chemical issuesthat people have, but people can
also use that to get whatever they want.
And like, there is a balance that has to be had where, you
know, you can go to therapy, butyou still have to, you know,
pull yourself up a little bit and choose, yeah, you got to get
out the door. And no one's going to do that
for you. So there's definitely that.

(58:02):
But I was going to say somethingelse with the, oh man, what was
it? I'm starting to get old now.
I get a light train of thought and then completely forget it.
It'll come to me maybe in a minute.
Are you, you grew up obviously, going to a Catholic school.
Are you religious or spiritual now?
No, my children go to Catholic school.

(58:23):
But no, I wouldn't say, you know, I think to a point where
it was, you know, I'd go to church twice a week until I was
18, kind of like, so it kind of gets honed into it.
I'd definitely say it's definitely given me a good
balance and a good, a good moralunder belief of who I am and how
I live. But no, I wouldn't say I'm
religious. I don't go to church actively at
all on a weekly basis, so. Do you believe in God?

(58:51):
But I guess I believe in a God. Do I believe he died in a cross
and rose again? I mean, I had the older you get.
It depends. I don't know.
I don't know. I believe in.
Is there a divine being out there?
What do you reckon? I'd say yes.
I've had enough experiences in life and things that just, I,
for what I've seen little subtlethings, you know, from the

(59:12):
conscience to, you know, some people call it your gut.
I would call it like conscience.Yeah, there's enough
communication that's happened towhere I've I've seen it.
I've gone both ways down both paths, unfortunately or
fortunately, however you want tosay see it.
But I've seen, you know, my dad.I'll just say that's when my dad
was in his his best spots, happiest spots even not even

(59:34):
necessarily like easy, like his life wasn't easy.
But I would say that when he wasreading the Bible and like
trying to commune with what I would consider like to be God,
it it brought down the selfishness to a level to where
it was harder for him to focus just on himself.
I love my dad. Wish I could see him again.
But I would say that that that has been the case.

(59:55):
And then in my own personal life, I just noticed in the
mornings if I read a few verses,just till I kind of ground me.
To something outside of myself, I treat my wife better.
I have noticed that it's easier to have a little more patience
or long-suffering, so she's left.
Eyeballs everywhere around the. House, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

(01:00:18):
But yeah, no, I do. I do believe, yeah, yeah.
So you mentioned also in the podcast something about your
daughter like going through somekind of a hard time and that
really put that into perspective.
Is it OK to hear that story? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I mean, no, we were living in Colorado.
She was only four at the time, and she kept on getting these

(01:00:40):
headaches. And four year olds apparently
don't get headaches. So they tried her an antibiotic,
this, that the other. And in the end they said we
don't like to do it, but we're going to give her an MRI of her
brain because they have to put her to sleep because 4 year olds
ain't going to like. Yeah, they ain't going to stay
still. And unfortunately, they found a
cyst that had ruptured on her brain.
So yeah. So I was swimming with Dave

(01:01:02):
Scott, flat FAC. I don't know what it's called
now. And my wife phoned me, says, oh,
you've got to come home. And I'm like, really.
OK. And then, yeah, like within 48
hours, she was having surgery tokind of like they couldn't
remove it, but they had to drainit because it was putting
pressure on her opted nerve. So.
Yeah, I mean, all of a sudden, you know, you, this was in 2014.

(01:01:22):
So I was, I think I hadn't lost the race that year.
Was that the year? Yeah.
Yeah. And, you know, life's good.
You know, we're loving America. We've got great friends.
Matilda's found a great preschool and you know, we're,
we're we're talking about turning a visa into a green card
into to living in America to kind of like, holy shit, our
daughter might die. Like of course she might have
brain damage. What the fuck?

(01:01:43):
So, yeah, no, it definitely it, it, it kind of like put it put
it all into to perspective real quick back then.
And then I was able to draw on that with it three years later,
2017, you know, when when you know, yeah, this is nothing when
a four year old can go through that kind of like, you know,
that that where they're, they'redrilling holes in their head
hair and hair and you've got tubes, you know, it's like,

(01:02:05):
yeah, it's the worst thing in the world to see someone you
love, you know? Yeah, yeah.
And then yeah, yeah, yeah. So that that really was for me
and definitely for my wife. And that's The funny thing was,
but not funny thing is my wife was pregnant at the time with
our son Hugo. And so and no one knew she was

(01:02:25):
pregnant because she wasn't, shewasn't far gone, you know, where
you tell everyone and stuff likethat.
And. But everyone was finding it
really strange that it was the father that was going in for all
these scans and not the mother because she couldn't go in there
because she was pregnant, she couldn't.
Sit in the same machine. With an MRI and, and yeah, she

(01:02:47):
was obviously very emotional because of my daughter, but also
when you're pregnant, your, you know, your hormones are all over
the wack and, and she decided she really, really, really
wanted to have another daughter.And we didn't, no, we did find
out about Matilda and obviously she was a girl.
So. And I remember we're in hospital
and we just had a scan and I'd been in with Matilda and we'd

(01:03:12):
come out and she was there balling her eyes out.
And I'm like, look, we haven't got the results.
We don't know. We're having a boy.
I don't want a boy. Oh, why are we having a boy?
I was like, that's amazing. That's brilliant.
Yeah, no. And like, Oh my God, though.
But yeah, I think she'd have 100boys, over 100 girls, Yeah.
Oh man, that that's yeah, yeah. So there was so much.

(01:03:34):
And again, we live in Colorado. My family lived in Spain and
Switzerland. My wife's family live in
England. Do they fly in?
Do they fly out? You know, you know, all of a
sudden this support network thatyou rely on, you know, yeah,
isn't there because it's 10,000 miles away or however far it is
10,000 kilometers away, 6000 miles away.
So yeah, no, that, that definitely.

(01:03:55):
But it but yeah, that that that that was really, really hard for
us, I think. And yeah, so I, yeah, so no
matter how what I was going through, if my freaking 4 year
old daughter can go through thatshit, then I can definitely, you
know, you know, stiff up a lick and stiff up the lip and yeah,
charge on. Yeah, keep calm.

(01:04:19):
Well, I've heard I don't have any children yet.
I do want to have kids here before too terribly long.
But I do have two through my sister, niece and nephew.
And like, the love that I have for them is like, I feel like I
would die for them. And I don't even have kids yet.
And I've heard when you have kids, like the level of just
what you would do. Like my sister was texting me
the other day for her newborn and she's like the newborn's

(01:04:40):
like 4 weeks old. She said I would literally fight
a bear for this, this child. She's like, I'm holding him her
in my arms and like I'm just crying and thinking like I would
do anything for them. So for you going through that
with your daughter, having, you know, that experience, you can't

(01:05:00):
control it. So like, was that really hard
for you? Because you there's really
nothing you could do in that moment.
No, literally I'm and I'm, you know, I think for, for people,
just for professional athletes or anyone that's successful in
a, in a profession, they're verygood at it and they are in
control of their profession. Yeah.
We go to a doctor's surgery, youopen your mouth, they look in it

(01:05:21):
and they say you've got strep throat, antibiotics.
You go, yeah, sure. You know, that trust we have in
a total stranger with, with antibiotics is one thing.
But when the doctor comes out and goes, yeah, there's no,
yeah, we've got to got to crack the skull.
We've got to go in and do that. It's like, you know, you're
like, shit, do I get a second opinion?
But say it's different. Do I do a third opinion?
Do I do this? Do you do research and you're on

(01:05:42):
things you have there and oh, Ohmy God.
And then you're like, oh, there was this, that the other and is
that, you know, we're, I guess we were fortunate that Denver,
Denver Children's Hospital is, is a apparently a very renowned
and you know, that they've got some great surgeons there.
But what, you know, I think, I think when people say, are you
good at something? My level is, are you the best in

(01:06:04):
the world? That's my currency, man.
You know, someone asked me if I was a good athlete.
I'd say, well, I can hold my own.
I've been, you know, but I've been the best in the world.
But I'm not anymore. So, you know, yeah, I'm, I'm
pretty well. So some people, you know, it's
just different, you know, and, and yeah, so it is terrifying.
It really, really, really is to put the life of your your your

(01:06:26):
kid in the hands of someone else.
But you've you've got to trust the, the world that we live in
and the, the, the society that we live in that these people are
qualified to do what they say they are.
And you know that everyone believes in that.
So kind of like, yeah, when you get your driver's license,
you're like, am I really qualified to drive?
You know, it's like, what the, do you know what I mean?

(01:06:48):
It's like really, you know, if Ifail, does that mean I shouldn't
drive or. Yeah, I don't know.
Yeah. So yeah, it was a really,
really, really tough time, I think for Kelly and myself, for
sure. Kelly, is your wife correct?
Yes, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. How long have you been married?
I we got married in December 20,2009.

(01:07:11):
So was that like 1515? Odd years, but we've been
together since 2003. Wow.
So yeah, that's a long time. Well, I mean, and you've seen
such highs and such lows too, like, and the fact that you've
made it through like as a testament of just beauty,
because a lot of people it, you know, you hit one or two low
spots. It's like, well, we're not right

(01:07:32):
for each other, but having the confidence that you can make it
through those cycles now I imagine is is pretty high with
each other. Yeah, I think it, it does help
that. So Kelly was a professional
runner, a middle distance runner.
So she she got it right from thestart.
You know, that that sacrifice that you know, you know, when
when I first met her, she was she was running, you know, that

(01:07:52):
selfishness that you have to have, you know, in that pursuit
of excellence. And The thing is, is that there
is no guarantee that you will reach success.
And once you reach it once thereis no guarantee you have a
formula. And it was understanding that
and, you know, that's how we've lived our life.
Every, every one year, 2 years. It's like, are my sponsors going

(01:08:12):
to renew? Are we going to be able to pay
the mortgage? You know, is my body going to
last another year? I'm going to change coaches.
Is this the smart thing to do? I'm going to train altitude now,
not in heat. I'm going to do, you know.
So she's been through all of those ups and downs and and
whatnot. So no, I'm very fortunate.
And yeah, well, we've been together.
Was that the 23? Was it 20/23/22 years now?

(01:08:35):
So yeah, must, must, must be working.
Yeah, yeah, for sure. Well, congratulations on that.
Well, I just have two more questions for you and they'll
let you go. I know you got stuff you got to
get to go do, but so going back to when you first started in
this career, your definition forsuccess even post Olympics gold
was then like the the Kona win. How has your definition of

(01:08:57):
success now changed over time, especially after like exiting
the sport for life? I think first of all, it's not
the Kona win. I always think it's arrogant and
stupid and complacent to go to arace wanting to win because you
cannot control everyone else. I think you've got to be, you've
got to have that conflict. You're in the fight for the
podium. And if you're in the fight for

(01:09:19):
the podium, you've got to ask yourself, why not me?
Why not? Why can I not be the one to
stand on the top? But to turn up, go, yeah, I'm
going to win. Whatever that's that's the, you
know, second is a failure. I remember Sebastian Kinley, it
was in Maloo of our World 70.3 champs I got, I had a terrible
race, I got 7 and and he was having a Sprint finish with Tim
Reid and Tim Reid won a home Aussie win in there.

(01:09:42):
Sebastian was like he was because he got second at the
world champs. It's like dude, better man beat
you. I was like man, yeah, deal with
it, dude. So yeah, I definitely first of
all, I think that is the goal now.
I mean, it doesn't matter what Ithink.
It's what the bloody world thinks.
Let's be honest, you know what Imean?

(01:10:03):
It's such a such a brave person to be content with what they
have and how they how they how they performed.
And, and I think we are, you know, kind of like, you know,
what's the definition of successof this podcast?
Is it how many downloads or is it just one person messages you
and say that's changed my life. I don't know, do you know what I

(01:10:24):
mean? It's such an outwardly world we
live in now. So my definition of success for
me is that my kids are happy, but they're only happy if their
friends like them. And sometimes their friends
don't like them because they've got the wrong haircut.
And I'm like, really? Are you joking me?
Or we didn't go on holiday to the right place over the summer.

(01:10:44):
Or, you know, Daddy's got the wrong car.
And I'm like, Jesus Christ, man,I just want to punch them in the
bloody head, you know? And your sister will definitely
relate to that before you. Yeah.
It's like, really? They're kids.
For God's sake. Yeah, for sure.
I don't know what I think successes for now.
It's just been trying to trying to, I don't know, educate,

(01:11:08):
trying to get my kids to have that deep understanding that
that there's only there's only afew people in the world that
truly care about them. And yes, that those people will
come and go. You know, they will be different
along their journey, but but youknow, yeah, being happy
internally is a hell of a hard and and and that's that's all.
Like that's my success. And you know, where they become

(01:11:31):
a pole vaulter and jump or is it628 or 629 now for a new world
record or, you know, they want to be a vet or a lawyer or they
want to, I don't know, be a counsellor.
You know, I I think it's it. Yeah, Yeah.
Would I like them to be professional athletes?
Yeah. I'd love it.
And, you know, but, you know, would it break my heart if they

(01:11:54):
weren't? No, not if they're happy.
And, you know, they're everyone That, that that's their journey.
But yeah, it's hard to ask what,what what kind of like how you
see success because, you know, for for my whole career, you
know, everyone's judged you by your result.
And that was not necessarily. It's like give, give, give

(01:12:14):
everyone a break, you know what I mean?
But that doesn't mean you're litby the sword.
You're only as good as your lastrace.
Yeah, unfortunately, yeah. You can be the richest poor man
in the world or the poorest richman in the world.
That's I think that that really kind of sums it up.
Are you happy? Yeah, I am.
Yeah, I think, but I don't know.Yeah.

(01:12:36):
No, I am. I mean, I've got kids, you know,
as I said now, like, what's the time?
It's 520 up. My my wife's bought my kids Hugo
and Matilda back home. So because you moved the podcast
one hour early. Thank you very much for doing
that. Very welcome.
I can take my son to the local lake.
We're going to go for a swim together, and it's in a motor
circuit and we closed so you canride your bikes around.

(01:12:57):
Yeah. I couldn't be happy.
And not not to harp on, but my daughter got very ill recently
and spent three weeks in hospital.
She's very much on the end, verymuch on the mend.
So, yeah, she's now doing, I mean, doing that totally
unrelated. Yeah, totally unrelated to what
happened to her when she was a young guy.
But yeah, so I, I think my, my people are happy my mom's moved

(01:13:19):
in with us because she just had a knee up because she's just.
I'll send her that. Just a knee.
You should. Well, you don't know.
Hold on. In context, she just had a knee
replacement. OK, So we're doing a hell of a
lot with her. For her.
No, but I'm only joking. Yeah, I'm happy.
That went well. And, you know, Yeah.
So yeah, I can't complain. Well, last question for you, for

(01:13:40):
people who are possibly in just like a really dark area right
now, like you have been into thedeepest depths of depression,
what what are, what is a piece of advice that you experienced
that is true for you that you could give to those people who
are wanting to find some light to come out of that?
I mean, God, I don't. I don't want to, I, I wouldn't

(01:14:01):
say this is the answer, but I, Ithink, I think you touched on it
earlier is the fact that we can be led to water, but we have to
take the drink. Well, you still have to work at
it. There's going to be no, no magic
pill that's going to get you outof those deep dark days.
There's something inside. And I'm not saying you're going
to wake up and go from down hereto the, you know, from the, the
Maori trench to the top of MountEverest, But you've got to,

(01:14:23):
you've got to, got to want it And, and you do.
You've got to take that first step or a step.
And it might be getting out of bed 10 minutes earlier.
It might be opening up your window and lending fresh air,
might be seeking counselling. It might be, I don't know, going
for a walk outside, you know, talking to someone to whether
it's family or friends or whatever it is.
Unfortunately, it, it, it is tough.

(01:14:45):
And yes, you can lean on people a lot more and, you know, and,
and in those times, but I think I'm unfortunately, yeah, it's,
it's got to come from within at some stage.
Yeah, take that step in faith. Good deal.
Well, Tim, it is a great honor and pleasure to have you on and
get to hear just an hour and 15 minutes worth of who you are a

(01:15:06):
little bit. Hope I get to meet you in person
someday, but really appreciate you taking the time and sharing
your life and continuing to invest and be a custodian for
the sport and the people that are coming into it.
There you go. No worries.
Thanks for having me. Really appreciate it.
Cheers. Thank you so much to Tim for
coming on the pod and allowing me to dive into his life.

(01:15:27):
Really interesting stories. He's gone through a lot.
He's obviously seen a lot, and to have the fortitude and
resilience to make it through those hard times, even when he
wasn't feeling strong at all is a super inspiring thing.
So thank you so much, Tim for coming on and sharing what you
did. If you made to this point in
podcast, thanks for being here. Check out our newsletter and the
other links in the show note descriptions.

(01:15:47):
Check out that episode by the man in the Halo.
That is also a pretty cool documentary that you should
definitely check out about Tim'sstory.
And if you would like, it would really help if you could like,
comment, subscribe on all the videos across all the platforms,
turn on the notification bells, leave comments, leave reviews.
It really helps to continue to grow the podcast.
Thank you guys so much for beinghere.

(01:16:08):
And we'll catch you in the next one.
Peace.

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#154 - Tim Don, Olympian

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}#154 - Tim Don, Olympian