#191 - Round 2 - Brenton Ford — Effortless Swimming, Coaching Better, and Learning to Let Go

In this round-two conversation, I sit back down with Brenton Ford — the man behind Effortless Swimming — to catch up on everything that’s changed since our first talk a few years ago. We start with my own Ironman California story before diving deep into swimming, coaching, and how letting go can actually make you faster.

Brenton shares what he’s learned running global swim camps, launching anti-fog goggles, and working alongside Olympic champions. We talk about the mindset behind great coaching, what it means to truly “feel the water,” and how self-awareness can change the way you move — in the pool and in life.

He also opens up about leadership, family, and learning to slow down as a dad. It’s a thoughtful, down-to-earth conversation about mastery, patience, and building something that lasts — whether that’s a business, a team, or a life you actually enjoy living.

Effortless Swimming IG: https://www.instagram.com/effortlessswimming/

HydroClear Goggles: https://shop.effortlessswimming.com?utm_source=Instagram-bio&utm_medium=Instagram-bio&utm_campaign=Linktree

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Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Hello and welcome back to the show Stupid Questions with me,
your host Seth. So today we're going to be
talking with Brenton Ford. This is his round to interview.
For those who may have not heardit, it was literally years ago
back I think around episode 30 or so when I recorded with him
for the first time. But he is the man, the myth of
legend behind effortless swimming.
So if you haven't seen them on YouTube, go check them out.

(00:22):
Check them out on Instagram. He does a lot of content around
swimming camps and now some antifog goggles.
So some cool stuff that he's talking about and doing.
We dive in deep, catching up, talk a lot about swimming for
like the first 30 or 40 minutes or so.
But then we get into more of thesome of the deeper existential
questions about life that I loveasking people.
So yeah, I really appreciate Brendan for coming on.
Give me the opportunity to reconnect with him.

(00:43):
Yeah. Check out the show notes for all
of his stuff. For all of my stuff.
Episode 200 is coming up. So if you want to submit some
ideas, do so at the link in the show notes.
And I just realized that I have not been linking that for past
episodes, so I need to make sureto actually link that.
Anyway, thank you guys for beinghere.
Really appreciate your time. Without further ado and
introduce you to a round two interview with Brenton Ford.

(01:06):
Yeah, so did Ironman California on Sunday.
Today went out to just go get some sunshine and to get out of
our little neighborhood called aSAC area.
You have to do like probably a 300 foot climb at less than a
mile. So I'm like, Oh my goodness.
And my heart rate's getting up to just like 1:30.
And it's like, stop, stop now. You're going to die.

(01:27):
Jesus, Yeah. How'd you go?
Pretty good. So it's Ironman California.
I think it's known to be like the fastest, one of the fastest
courses in North America. The bike literally has like less
than 1000 feet of vertical gain over the entire 112 miles.
So that was really fast. So PR that obviously appeared
the swams downriver. The run was not quite APR end up

(01:50):
having a little IT band issue man, but I stopped to walk quite
a bit. But it was a super fun day.
I going into it. I was just like I'm going to
enjoy this no matter what and was saying stuff out loud like a
couple of things, one like this is a gift and every time I would
say like that out lied. I kid you not, I would run
faster. So yeah, it was cool.
It was it was a good, good experience.

(02:12):
They're they always hurt and you're like, I don't know why in
the world I'm doing this kind ofmild 20 into the marathon, but.
Yeah. Oh yeah.
Yeah. Have you done one?
That's awesome. Just one Iron Man.
And in my, in my marathon swim that I did, which was a 20K
swim, I said a similar thing like 13 KS in, I was getting

(02:32):
really cold and I had to tell myself like, you're lucky to be
here. You're lucky to be here.
Even though I was freaking hate hating it because I was just
starting to get hypothermic. But I just have to be positive.
Just remind yourself that it, it's a gift.
Yeah, that's, that's awesome. So how many?
How many have you done? This was my third one I did 1-3

(02:53):
years ago and then two years agoand then the last one was such a
tough experience that I was like, I think I need some time
off of this. Like I my mindset wasn't great.
It was I kind of had already been defeated the morning of
just mentally before I even started the race.
And even though like it to that point up into the swimming bike,
I got totally PR D but mentally it just I gave up way too early

(03:16):
and it ended up being just like a suffer fest of like I took two
full IV bags at the end. Like it was absolutely nothing.
Yeah, I was in a bad. Way.
Oh man. Yeah, yeah.
Probably still feeling it now too, huh?
Yeah, two days later. Yeah, it's not, it's not
terrible. I don't like mentally.
I think there's a little bit of brain fog.

(03:37):
So I'm 33 now. Last time I was 31 and I feel
like I can feel the age a littlebit more, to be honest.
But yeah, I know it was good. And I, I'm feeling OK.
My legs are definitely sore, butit's good soreness all around.
It's not like, oh, I'm definitely injured or something
like that. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. That's, that's good, man.
That's brutal, I said to my wifewhen I crossed the finish line.

(03:58):
Never let me do that again. No matter what I say to you,
never let me do it again now. Let me forget how bad.
Yeah, it's so bad. Yeah, I never heard that much.
Yeah, yeah, It's a good, it's good fitness though.
Like I, yeah, I've really enjoyed being that that lean and
that fit and, you know, you feellike you can go forever.
Yeah, yeah. I'd be lying if I said that that

(04:20):
wasn't like a piece of the draw,especially when I first got into
this stuff. It was a body image, probably a
little too much or actually it was too much.
Like I was really focused on that.
But you know, as I get into this, like, Oh yeah, like I'm,
I'm pretty fit. Like I look lean.
Yeah. Everybody likes to look good.
Like there's a part of the self identity I think that can be
wrapped up into that as long as it's not too much.

(04:41):
But yeah, it does feel nice. But I'm also looking forward to,
like now an offseason of just gorun some trails, do some more
mountain biking, take a little more risk that I'm not like, oh,
I don't want to mess up a training block.
You know what I mean? Yeah, just be able to enjoy
staying fit or getting fit and just doing some different stuff.
Yeah, yeah, for sure, yeah, yeah, I think that's what I've
enjoyed for the last eight years.

(05:01):
He's just not having a big eventto train for and just.
I can do whatever I sort of feellike, whether it's surfing or
running or swimming. And yeah, it's quite nice to
just have options and not have to do stuff.
So, yeah, I'm 38 now. So I'm, yeah, I don't know.
I, I don't know how I'd go in anIron Man.
I could do, I could certainly doit again, but I think I'd feel

(05:24):
it a lot more than I would yeah,at 28, so.
Yeah, yeah. No kidding story.
So what are you doing right now that's like fun in terms of
exercise and staying active or ahobby?
Like what's the thing that's taken up the the interest in
your headspace? I mean, I usually it's always
around like swimming. I'll still swim three times a

(05:44):
week minimum with, with the squad and then if the surf's
good, I'll surf. If it's not, then I'll run and
I'll go to the gym a couple times a week.
So it's, it's usually just thosefour things that I'm just doing,
but there's no real pressure on doing any of them.
But yeah, I just as long as I'm doing something every day, I'm
happy. And yeah, and, and if the surf

(06:06):
is good, then I'll just sort of scrap other stuff to, to do that
if I, if I have to, because that's kind of main, main
priority. But yeah, I don't know.
I just, I love, I love to just hurt myself, you know, I love to
love to train hard and. Type 2 fun.
Yeah, yeah, it's so it doesn't matter in which way that is, but

(06:27):
yeah, they're the four things I do.
I've got a mountain bike but it collects a lot of dust in the
garage at the moment. Yeah.
Do you have a desire? Yeah, I was going to say, do you
have a desire to get better at it?
Let's say you like what you wantto get back out again.
Or is it just kind of a thing that's falling away?
Yeah, just it's it's a thing that's that falls away.
It's just I love being in the ocean, so surfing always takes

(06:49):
priority. Yeah, cool.
Surfing's awesome. Yeah.
I was in New Zealand for Worlds.Let's see back.
It's almost a year ago now, which is crazy, but got to do
some surfing off the off the coast there in New Zealand in a
few different places and man, surfing.
If I could live on the beach, ifI ever get that opportunity
where there's good surfing, I think I might do that.
Because there's just, I don't know, there's something about

(07:10):
surfing that's just unlike really any other sport, truly.
I guess maybe you can compare itto swimming a little bit, but
once you get up and just feeling, I don't know, joining
forces with the ocean to do something amazing is pretty
cool. I know it sounds kind of woo
woo, but that's what it is. Yeah, it is.
It is. And it's like, I remember
hearing this guy who was on maybe he's on the Rich Roll

(07:30):
podcast and he was into rollerblading or roller skating
and he was a doctor as well. And he was explaining that when
you sort of go from left skate to right skate, you get this
acceleration and there's something in your eardrums that
like that sort of feels that andyou get this chemical release of
some sort. And it's the same thing with

(07:52):
surfing. So it's when you get this change
in speed and like you do it whenyou're pumping up and down the
wave. So there's that as well as just
like, yeah, riding this energy that's come from thousands of
miles away too. So it's, I don't know, there's
something really cool to it. Yeah.
Especially once you get yeah, once you get good at it and it's
like, you know, you guaranteed to catch waves and stuff.

(08:15):
It's I don't know, I'm just, I'mhooked on it.
I've been hooked for 20 years. Yeah, yeah.
So you learned a little bit later in life too, though I
guess about 18. Yeah, 18, I learned.
And then especially moving down to the coast five years ago,
it's got so much better being able to surf, yeah, multiple
times a week. Yeah, yeah, Keep you fit and
it's so fun. Yeah, yeah, for sure.

(08:36):
That's cool, man. So really quick, I guess I'll
just say officially thanks so much for coming back on.
I was just looking just briefly,I guess it was like episode now
I'm forgetting I think 38 or 35 that you came on my podcast.
It was it'll be two years in January actually just kind of
crazy. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I think we've probably recorded in, like, I want to say December

(08:57):
or November. So it's just crazy.
So that begs me to ask a question.
Yeah. Like what?
What has happened in two years? I mean, your life has obviously
changed to some degree. You're an older, wiser man.
Now we're approaching 40 like. Hey, hey, go easy.
Yeah, just rub it all in. Yeah, What's been happening, I

(09:19):
guess like for me with with coaching and yeah, effortless
swimming, like we just continue to kind of grow that and just
try and do do that a lot, a lot better.
So like I just got back from a camp in the Maldives with Sharon
Van Roovendale, who was Olympic champion in the 10K last year.

(09:41):
So like running that trip with her, I learnt so much from her
and I can see why she was Olympic champion.
Like she's just so switched on to how, how her body works, what
she needed to do on land, what she needs to do in the water.
And so like learning from someone like her, I feel like

(10:02):
has really helped upgrade my coaching and my, my knowledge.
So just, yeah, we're just looking to get, get better at
coaching. And then also just, yeah, trying
to improve like the clinics thatwe do by, you know, adjusting
those a little bit. And then we've also started to
bring out like these new anti fog goggles and add a few things

(10:23):
like that to, to what we offer because it all sort of fits in
this like our on our, on our podcast, it's help people swim
better, live a better life. And yeah, and, and just just
improve their, their swimming. And so it all sort of falls
under that, that category of like, alright, if you can enjoy

(10:43):
your swimming more by seeing clearly with these goggles, if
we can help you with your technique and give you good
experiences on these camps. To me, that's, that's kind of
what I want to be able to offer.So yeah, we've just been been
doing that really and going to new locations, got some camps in
Tahiti next year. In Japan.
Yeah, a few other spots. So yeah, just really enjoying

(11:06):
what I'm what I'm doing with, with effortless swimming.
So it's yeah, it's been, it's been good.
Yeah. And I see you've had a lot of a
lot of pretty amazing guests on the podcast, too.
Yeah. Thank you.
Yeah. No, it's been great.
Yeah. I, I tell the people this quite
frequently. But if I was to quit doing it
tomorrow by choice or by force, I would have counted it all

(11:29):
success. Just the network alone has been
phenomenal. The amount of perspectives that
I've gained from those within the triathlon or endurance world
industry and outside of it, especially now I'm trying to
expand out a little bit more, has been invaluable to my life.
And I feel like I'm, it's honestly a selfish thing.
Like I try to have people on andthere's only been maybe one or
two instances where I've kind ofmade the mistake where I didn't

(11:49):
follow this tenant principle. But just based on curiosity, I
love being curious about anotherperson's perspectives and
experience. So yeah, it's been, it's been
great. And I'm, yeah, I'm super pumped
that you also are continuing to like, find joy in what you're
doing. Yeah, it's pretty neat.
Well, it's probably a similar thing.
Like I when I was young, I was always watching videos and DVDs

(12:13):
of like Ian Thorpe and Michael Phelps and trying to figure out
how to swim faster. And that was as a teenager.
And it's just continued on through, through my later years.
So it's that curiosity of what makes people fast, what makes
them them better, and also just finding out like, or even just
communication skills and how do I coach better?

(12:33):
How do I deliver this message ina, a different or a better way?
Yeah. And so always just trying to to
improve on things. And like, I, I still, I think
I'm hopefully a good coach, but I still think I've got so much
to improve. And that kind of that, that
drives me because I see other people coaching and I go, jeez,
like they're really good at likeconnecting with that person and

(12:56):
maybe I could get a lot better at, at that side of things.
So always just trying to, yeah, improve on, on that because I, I
think there's a lot of the holeswhere I could, I could, could
get better. So yeah, it's like, I think it's
like doing your teeth, you know,you don't just brush your teeth
once and you're done. Same with coaching.
It's like you've, you've got to try and work on these things
every single single day. So yeah, that's, that's what

(13:19):
keeps me going. And I've done it for nearly 20
years now, but still enjoy it. Yeah.
So I can't say it can't say it'sstopping.
Yeah, yeah, on two things. First question, kind of what you
just said a little bit with coaching and then even just a
few minutes ago, you know, you said you had on this Olympian,
what was her, what's her name again?
She was helping do the coaching.Van Rivendell.

(13:42):
Sharon Rivendell. OK, I don't.
I don't really know her. Can't even pronounce her last
name. But I take your word for it.
She's really good swimming. No, and she's like helping you
and you're getting a feel for things.
Like you said. Oh, I can definitely improve as
a coach, as a coach. Like how do you know when you're
getting better as a coach? Because I feel like sometimes it
would be easy to say, Oh, well, if my athletes doing well, then
I'm doing well. If you're not doing well, then

(14:03):
I'm not doing well, which isn't unnecessarily always true.
So for you, like what is some advice that you can give to
people on knowing you know, how,how are you getting better at
being a coach or not? That's a good question.
Some of it is from the, the, some of it's from the, the
feedback that I get. So people e-mail me after doing

(14:27):
a clinic or, or a camp or, or seeing the results that we'd get
on a, on a camp. That's, that's certainly one
way. But also, I mean, with these
camps and stuff that we do, I, we, I work with different
coaches and I see the way that they are able to, you know,
deliver things or get their point across.

(14:49):
And I look at that and go, OK, they're, they're really good in
these different aspects that I think I'm probably not quite as
good at. And so just even like
identifying that. And then I'll write down, right,
well, what are they doing that'shelping them like connect with
this person? And I'll write that down and
I'll say, all right, well, if, if I want to get better at that,
then I probably have to do XY and Z.

(15:12):
So like I really like to take notes and then try to make those
changes going forwards. So just even being aware that
there are holes to to my game isprobably 1, but it is hard in
terms of results. Like so everyone is different
and some people improve straightaway.
Some people it will take them six to to 12 months.

(15:34):
But also having people come back, you know, come back to
clinics, come back to camps. That to me is a sign that I'm
doing something right with my with my coaching, whether or not
they've really improved or or not, because in the end it's
down to them to do the things that we're recommending.
And so, yeah, that's not a reflection on your coaching,

(15:57):
whether or not they're, they're getting better, but more, are
they enjoying their swimming? Are they, you know, are they,
they enjoy the challenge of trying to to get better and then
do they want to come back? So I sort of, I like to sort of
base it more on that. Do they want to come back to
the, the stuff that we we offer and we get so many people coming
back to clinics every single year, back to camps every year

(16:21):
because hopefully they all, because I think they enjoy it
and they like being around us. So yeah, that's more what I sort
of judge it, judge it off because it is hard to, to get
everyone to improve straight away, especially if they're in
their 50s or 60s, They're reallystiff and all of that.
They like mobility is a big partof it, especially with with
swimming. So yeah, there's there's only so

(16:42):
much we can do in a week's time.Yeah, no kidding.
Good answers. So I'm also curious though with
so for me, yeah, I'll just speakfrom my experience.
And I'm curious if you've ever had an athlete like this,
because everyone is so incredibly different.
Like you're talking about mobility, Do they enjoy
swimming? When did they learn how to swim?

(17:02):
You know, the list goes on for the amount of variables that you
could input to the situation to give a different outcome.
But for me, like I didn't grow up swimming per SE, but I
enjoyed getting in the water andmessing around with friends and,
you know, we who can hold their breath the longest and swim, you
know, the length of the pool underwater, all of that kind of
stuff. So I feel like that definitely
helped to develop me to a certain degree.
But as I've gotten more into triathlon and where swimming is

(17:25):
like a discipline that you want to try to master the best of
your ability, as I have done it more over time, especially of
coaching myself in the past yearand a half.
Now, this is going to sound so intuitively backwards, but my
race times have gotten faster and my overall swimming, I would
say in terms of like yardage hasactually gone down.
I try to keep my frequency in the pool up.

(17:46):
But I'm wondering, like from your experience, if someone is
going and you know they're improving in the pool, they're
improving in their sessions, they maybe even feel better
about it, but their race times or their competition times or
whatever time trial times aren'timproving.
Like is there something that's missing?
Like do you see, like with my experience, is that something

(18:08):
that you see with other people, if they care about it less to
some degree or don't stress about as much, they swim better?
Like what are your thoughts and all that?
Yeah, that's an interesting observation.
And I, I see it quite regularly in in, in people when they
particularly in it may be racinglike they care a lot.
And so if they are, if they're hyper aware of their technique

(18:33):
and they're trying to get everything perfect, that's when
they tend to get a little bit too tense and a little bit too
stiff. And so the approach that I think
you need to take in the water isyou need to be relaxed and you
kind of just need to find your rhythm and find your flow.
But on the other side of that, obviously technique is
important. And so we need to put some
attention on on that. But if it's too much, then

(18:53):
you're just not going to move well.
And so I think that like, I don't care so much, you know,
what, what happens that lends itself really well to to racing
well, because you're kind of just get into the zone and, and
find your rhythm, especially in open water, especially when
there's other people around you.You can't be perfect with your
stroke. So I think that mentality is
quite, quite helpful in a way. Whereas a swimmer who is, yeah,

(19:17):
anxious and not wanting to stuffup, you know, they just have
this timidness about them that doesn't help them when when it
comes to racing. So yeah, that's normally the the
case where someone who might be improving and doing the work in
the pool and in training, they, yeah, might be looking good
there. But then when it comes to
racing, they're trying to control things too much.

(19:38):
So just like the advice I often give to swimmers who I'm
coaching is just like, let it go.
Just like, you know, get in the race and let's just get into
this nice flow. Maybe there's a song or there's
a beat or a rhythm that you likeyou find really works for you.
Get into that zone in the back of your mind.
Have something technique relatedthere.
Like maybe you need to just workon length.
OK, keep that in mind. But let's just get into the into

(20:00):
the zone because it's. Yeah, you, you just can't
control things too much, you know?
In a race like that. So yeah, that's an interesting
observation that I think a lot of people could benefit from is
just not trying not to care too much.
Yeah. So they're, you know, they're,
they're racing. It's also super fascinating that
you mentioned music because I have found more, I would say,

(20:23):
than running and biking, although it does happen from
time to time. A specific song will get stuck
in my head. Like that happened at Iron in
California. I don't remember what it was,
but I remember like kind of humming this tune and being
like, oh, wait, I should actually cite for a buoy.
But like that happens. And I don't understand exactly
why. I guess it's like the the timing
of it. And maybe if it's around this,

(20:45):
the time of that timing of that song or something like that,
then it just, I don't know, the brain.
The brain is so fascinating whenit comes to to swimming,
self-awareness. What you're talking about
getting in the flow. Yeah.
I find that if I'm listening to a song on the way to the pool
when I'm training, it's if there's a song that has a
similar beat to how I'd swim, I'm just I'm singing that song

(21:06):
all the way through the main themain set.
And there's one that I put to anInstagram video.
It was Justin Bieber's Daisies. I think it is OK.
Yeah, I know it's, you know, it's got like the, the tempo of
it is pretty, pretty similar to how most people would swim.
It was kind of like maybe like a60 or 70 stroke rate or

(21:27):
something like that. But just you're having that in
your mind can help a session go pretty pretty quickly.
But it's good because it's like you want to make sure that your
stroke rate doesn't drop off toomuch, especially in a race or it
will go up too high. So you can really just, you
know, keep a keep that stroke right where it needs to be with
a good with a good song. So yeah, it's worth hunting for

(21:49):
one and finding one that you like.
Yeah, I feel like a super fascinating study would be to
take a group of participants, have them listen to different
types of songs at different cadence or different tempos and
see how it affects like the nervous system, like breathing,
heartbeat. I don't know if certain synapse

(22:11):
is firing and see like how it how it affects 'cause I'm sure
it has some level effect. It has to.
Yeah. Just a yeah, a random thought.
Yeah. I've got the called the shocks
open Swim Pro or OK Yeah, like the headphones, the phone
conduction headphones. I've got the the swim version of
them and I've just started to use them here and there and it's

(22:33):
it's pretty good. Like if I'm listening to there's
like an artist called Jack Bots,he's kind of like an acoustic a
little bit like Jack Jack Johnson in a way, but really
sort of chill. And I'm, I love swimming
aerobically to to him because it's just very relaxed and, you
know, there's no tension. I can, I can relax through
there. And then I've also got Linkin
Park on the, on the same thing. And it's like I can, I can push,

(22:59):
but then it's very hard to swim aerobically listening to Linkin
Park. So yeah, yeah, I think it's,
it's good to have those different, different options.
But certainly the way that I'm sort of approaching it, I'm, I'm
much more aggressive when it comes to listening to Linkin
Park and swimming. But it's it's good, you know, it
just helps you get out of your maybe your normal, normal zone

(23:19):
or normal way of swimming and especially when you're trying to
fire up for a harder session. That's so cool.
So on the topic of self-awareness that we were
talking a little bit ago, like you don't want to be too hyper
self aware of, you know, all thedifferent parts your body, I
guess, because then you could become overwhelmed.
But truthfully, and I, I don't say this to be just like
judgmental, but you can take a look at people and, and kind of

(23:42):
know how they walk, how they run, like what kind of level of
self-awareness they have with their body mechanics and things
like that. And I think part of it's like a
gift that you get. Some of it can be trained, but
how do you like, for instance, like what your camps if you
notice someone who's really struggling with just form and
technique and they they just really struggle to have that
self-awareness of like what their hands doing or what their

(24:05):
foots doing. How do you begin to teach that
to like, shift your consciousness to your external
limb over here or whatever? Yeah, it's a good one.
So quite often the way that people approach other things in
life is how they approach their swimming.
And the one that comes most to mind, there is someone who has
just been used to like just likebanging their head against the

(24:28):
wall or just like forcing thingsand someone who's used to like
just putting in as much hard work as they need to to get the
result in work or whatever it might be.
They do the same in swimming. And so someone like that is
typically going to swim like they're on this, like this
windmill sort of stroke. They're very rushed and it's

(24:49):
just all, all muscle. And so like I saw that last week
on this, this camp that we were were running.
And so we had this awesome couple from, from Australia and
with the with the guy, he, he just swims very short and was
like, there's no extension, no glide.
And it was just like in and RIP hard strong guy.

(25:11):
But just like he could really just lengthen out and get twice
as far with every stroke he was taking.
And so we're doing a swim back to where we're staying and he
started just by rushing the stroke and his wife gave him a
nudge. He said, look, slow it down just
like lengthen out. There's no rush here, like just
stretch out. And he did that and then he

(25:31):
pretty much like kept with the group for the last K there,
whereas before he was kind of getting left behind.
And so it is hard when someone'sapproach has been like that for
the last 60 years to to muscle things and getting them to slow
down. So it's like, I think just
getting them to realize that canhelp a lot.
So I've, I've often had people like say, like, I'll say them

(25:53):
like you're rushing things, you're muscling it.
And like, yeah, like I, I tend to do that with, with work.
I'll just, you know, I'll just, I'll do that trying to solve a
problem. So trying to get them to
identify that first is, is, is the first thing.
After that, it's really just breaking it down with some
drills or some skills. So for example, if we're doing
sculling out the front, someone who's approaching their swim in

(26:17):
that tense and muscling way, that'll just be like like this.
It's like, all right, hang on. Just soften the hands, soften
the wrist, soften, soften your forearms and just slow it down.
And I want you to see if you canfeel that water on the hand and
on the forearm and then, you know, might take a few goes, but
they can, can get there. And then we want to try and
carry that into the swim. So I do like to break it down

(26:37):
with some drills or skills, get them to make whatever change
we're trying to make. And then we go out, Let's, let's
try and carry that into your in your swim.
Another thing we did on the campwas we would do 2 to 300m swims,
break and then go again, but we'd have them change their
focus each time. So we started from top to

(26:57):
bottom. So we got them to focus on their
entry, reach and catch and I'd I'd give them a few cues there.
Then we go on to the head, then we go on to rotation and then
posture kick. So we kind of go through it that
way. So just having them bring that
awareness to all the different parts of their body, help them
them do it as well. And then also just showing them,

(27:19):
just showing them video of how they swim.
And it's really obvious if they are muscling their stroke,
especially if you compare it to some of the other swimmers who
might be long and gliding. And yeah, and then they go, OK,
well shit. If they're swimming twice as
fast as I am and I'm putting in as much effort as I can, like
there's obviously something I'm doing wrong.
So there's a lot of different ways you can do it and, but I

(27:43):
think it's really just showing people that you don't need to
don't need to approach it like you do with other problems in in
life because something's so technical that it's not going to
work for you necessarily where it can work on the bike and it
can work on the run to like really go hard.
Yeah, they're especially on the bike, I feel like it works so
well because there's already engineering system put in place

(28:06):
to where like if you apply pressure like it does the
transfers, they transfers the energy, I mean, relatively
cleanly. I mean, you can come at it from
like a an angled pedal stroke and that can be bad for your
knees. But for all intents and
purposes, like the engineering system is set up to where you
can have like a very solid efficiency rating rating when
you're transferring that energy.But with water, because there's
no physical connection to your hand really, you have to like

(28:29):
understand intuitively, I guess through a lot of experience,
like how you apply that. Because I was recently in Puerto
Rico and for a wedding and we went swimming and there were
some sea turtles. And like, if you've ever watched
a sea turtle swim, it's just amazing because they are like
not moving at all. But the curvature of their fins

(28:49):
and the way that they approach, like there's no angle to it
whatsoever. It's like these very soft curves
that just like the way that it works, but when they want to
pick it up, like it's the same movement, it's faster, but it's
not like they're not kicking up up tail wind behind them, I
guess is what I'm trying to say.Yeah.
Yeah, that's right. They can do it with like such
little effort. And one of the things that I

(29:10):
really took from last weeks campwith with Sharon was she like
she would always just say like, if we're doing this theraband
exercises, she's like, you know,make sure relax your shoulders,
like just relax it. And she'd grab people while the
shoulders and just like just tryand really get them to to relax
through there because everyone'slike they're up here.
But also she's like, you're, you've got so much power through

(29:31):
through this part of your stroke, like you've got way more
than you need. You don't need to use it.
So I think that just that message repeated again and again
helped a lot of people last weekthat you've you've got more
power than what you could could actually use.
So particularly through the catch, she just says like, you
want sensation, sensation, and then you want to start to apply

(29:53):
a bit more force through there. And this is, you know, this is
the Olympic champion who's just so efficient and the way she
moves through the water is incredible to to watch.
But that message of you've got more power than you need.
You don't have to use it all outin front here.
I think really sunk home for a lot of people because she's,

(30:13):
yeah, she's got the credibility to to match what she's saying
to. Yeah, that's so interesting
because like what you're talkingabout, like the power of the
stroke, like right here being the most powerful piece.
I'm thinking of boats. So boats are so terribly
inefficient. Like in their engine, they use
so much fuel to I mean, I most boats with the propeller design

(30:35):
and it works. It's great.
Like nobody's happened to, you know, eat a bunch of I mean, it
eats a bunch of gas, I guess, but they don't have to worry
about like, oh, it's running toohard for too long or something
like that. But it's so I feel like the boat
needs to be reinvented to some degree or the engine or how you
propel yourself through water, like some kind of a fin type of
a system that could be a little bit more, I don't know, like a
sea turtle. Yeah, I saw something about a

(30:58):
new propeller design that they've they've made that's
something like 30 or 40% more efficient where it's like it's
like a normal propeller, but it's, I don't know, they've done
something different to it, but Ithink it's just very costly to
to make at the moment. But yeah, it's it's like it
already loses so much efficiencywith it, with its current

(31:18):
design. So I think they're on to it.
They've just got to make it moreaffordable.
Yeah, yeah, no kidding. So really quick, the sensation
part, like you're talking about the sensation of like your hand
gliding, not getting too far up,too far down.
Like is that what you mean by sensation before you like start
to gradually go down and then you start to pull through the
power. Is that what she was talking
about? Yeah.

(31:39):
So we were going through firstlybefore we did the therabands,
she would just take people through the catch in the pool.
So we'd stand up, we'd have the arm extended up here, rotating
on the side and she was very bigon making sure that you're
rotating the right amount and rotating at the right time.
So stand up, rotate, reaching uphere as you go through the

(32:00):
catch, it's sensation. And I think she's using that
word to to show, well, you want that sensation of pressure on
the hand and forearm, but we're not trying to power ourselves
much there. So it's sensation through the
catch. Then once you get through here
as your hands coming under your shoulder, she spoke a lot about
making sure that your shoulders down and back once you get to

(32:23):
hand in line with the shoulder and very, very much about having
like the lats being used here. So we did a lot of theraband
exercises where she worked on shoulders down and back and
being able to to feel the lat being used in these different
theraband exercises. So it's sensation at the top,
shoulders down and back have that lat really switched on and

(32:46):
using it there. And at this point, you'd be back
to flat as your hand is coming under your shoulder and then as
you finish the stroke and rotateonto your other side and it's
like a tricep press. So you'll be using your triceps
through that back end of the of the stroke if you finish it
really well and finish it past the hip.
So we'd go through a lot of these, these movements where you

(33:06):
go through it slow, make sure you rotate it right at the right
position. You want to sort of feel those
different sensations, different muscles working.
And then we get a fair band, hold it with one hand, the
opposite hand, and then we do the same thing, but you get now
going against that theraband so you can feel the sensation and
those different muscles being used.

(33:26):
So really breaking it down and going through it slowly.
And we'd help kind of adjust people's forms so that they
could do it. Doing that out of the water I
think helped, helped a lot because yeah, yeah, there's so
much going on when you're swimming.
But if you can't do it right outof the water, you, you probably
can't do it right in the water. Yeah.
And what we saw with a lot of people was how they were doing

(33:47):
it in the water is how they would do it out of the water
initially. And so that's why you then we
change it. And then they can really start
to change it once they're swimming.
Yeah, as you're saying that to, it honestly reminds me of like
how a clutch works almost to a degree, because when you're
talking about the sensation of your hand in your forearm, like
you need to almost get up to speed of where the water is
moving first before you can apply that.

(34:08):
Like they have that connection to apply more pressure to get
you a faster speed of where you were before.
And like, you don't want to slowdown too much in between.
That's what the stroke rate, I guess, comes in.
I could talk about this all day.It's fascinating to me.
I don't know much about clutchesso curious to how what's the?
Similarity. So the engine is moving, right?

(34:30):
Let's just say 100 revolutions per minute.
And to switch gears, which is a bigger gear to go faster, you
have to disengage the transmission where that power is
going to be applied from the engine to the axle or whatever,
to wherever your tires are. So you're the engine spinning
and then the clutch is not, but you apply the clutch plate to
essentially spin up that next gear to get it to match that

(34:53):
same revolution and knitting engages.
And then you can have that gear plus, you know, some more power.
And then if you drop out of thatgear, you know, you keep going.
But the, the idea is like, you get up to, you know, 100
revolutions, you're going 60 miles an hour, You apply the
clutch, you want to keep that speed kind of still going up a
little bit before it starts to slow down.
That way you don't lose speed when you're switching gears, if

(35:15):
that makes sense. So whenever I'm like focused on
like, oh, I need to swim faster a kick after the wall.
If I'm doing fast 100, it's like, you know, 115 pace 110,
whatever. When I go off the wall, I'll
accelerate a little bit. But I realized that my stroke
rate is slower on purpose. At least this is how I've done
it. Slower when I'm leaving the

(35:35):
wall, and then it speeds up as Iget further down the lane
because I'm speeding up again, if that makes sense.
And I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing.
You're the professional here, soyou have to tell me that's kind
of how a clutch works, if that makes sense.
Yeah, yeah. That's good.
Yeah, it's, yeah, that, yeah, I think there's, there's a lot of
similarities there with how we want to be, we want to be

(35:56):
swimming and and we did quite a bit of work on changing,
changing gears in the water and how to how to approach it.
And so Sharon was like, she talks about it as like Zone
12345 and then you've got 789, which is like you're really sort
of short and fast stuff. But like Zone 1, she's just like

(36:18):
this is your like very, very easy, just almost recovery sort
of pace Zone 2 you're working on.
She was really big on working a lot of Zone 1 and Zone 2 stuff.
And especially when you're in Zone 2, it's like longer
strokes, lower stroke rate and you're trying to maintain a good
amount of power in these strokes.

(36:40):
Because if you can, if you can hold more water and you can like
have those longer, more powerfulstrokes in Zone 2 and train
that, that's really going to help you get to zones or three,
four and five and be able to increase your speed.
So especially when you are goingeasier, don't really don't try
and write up in those ones because you want to hold as much
water as you can cover as much distance as you can, because

(37:02):
then you're going to have the the power and the technique to
be able to increase your speed when you do start to increase
your stroke rate. So I thought that was really
good and a good message for people to hear as well.
Especially typically, you know, triathletes will think about
getting the rating up, which youcertainly need to do in racing.
But if you can train in those longer, bigger strokes, you're

(37:25):
going to develop the the musclesand the strength and the stroke
to be able to be effective with that higher stroke rate,
especially when it comes to racing.
So I thought that was that was quite a good one.
Yeah, Yeah. For people.
When you talk about, you know, holding or grabbing more water,
like that's a is that a literal thing?
Like if you are more intentionalabout without breaking the

(37:48):
surface tension, like if you go a certain way, not too fast, but
also not too so you can bring more water with the hand.
Is that what that's coming from?Yeah, because that's
scientifically proven. Can you show me that on a graph?
It's yeah, I guess the it's moreso about like to travel further

(38:10):
with each stroke. Firstly, it's minimizing drag,
so making sure that you're streamlined.
That's number one. Then the other part of it is
maximizing the propulsion so that obviously that surface
area, hand and forearm, so how effective you've been with that.
But then also how well you can like you're connecting that arm
with the body. So making sure that you're like

(38:32):
using your lats and using your triceps through the stroke and
how you time it with that strokeas well.
So you could have a really good mood, like catch position.
But if it's all like, if it's all out of sync, it's not going
to be connected with the body. So there's quite a bit to it,
but that's what I, I sort of talk about.
That's what I'm referring to when it comes to covering more

(38:52):
distance or holding more, more water.
It's being able to tie all thosethings, things together as
opposed to, yeah, as I don't know, like necessarily as
opposed to like just a better catch position because there's
so much more that goes, goes into it.
And so because I've had swimmerswho have say they've come to a
clinic and they've worked on their catch and they're getting

(39:14):
a terrific catch position, but it's out of time with the rest
of their stroke. Like they're, they're catching
too soon. They're just not getting that
far with it. But if they were to time it
better in relation to their rotation, that they're going to
get so much more from that good position.
So it's not just body position, it's not just catch.
It's like, all right, how are you actually tying those things

(39:36):
together? And you, you normally can feel
this sort of stuff. It's like, actually, I feel like
I'm getting quite far with each stroke I'm taking.
And that would be reflected in your stroke count that in the
laps that you're doing too. So yeah, lots of different parts
that go into it, but I think people generally have a
generally have a pretty good sense of that stuff if they've
given a bit of thought and attention to it.

(39:58):
Do you feel like that's something that you feel when
you're swimming well, like you're covering good distance
with each stroke? Yeah, like I didn't even
honestly even know about, you know, ADPS set or anything until
like a year and a half ago. I was swimming with a 1 was an
Olympian and one was probably could be an Olympian.
And they were like, Oh, we're doing DPS is like, oh, cool,

(40:19):
what's that? So that was the first time, like
a year and a half ago that that actually got introduced into my
understanding of swimming. And I have done some, I don't
regularly program that. But to answer your question
specifically, like, I don't know, like, yes, I, I guess.
So I, I spent some time with Nicholas Chase, who was my coach

(40:40):
a while back and we were swimming open water and he was
on a paddle board next to me andjust, you know, having me focus
on try to what you're saying, bepowerful, but through those long
strokes. And I did feel it then, but it
felt so not effortless, you know, not to use your brand too
much, but it was not effortless swimming at all.
But you know, I don't know when I race, I guess because I'm just

(41:01):
calmer. Like I feel like I am going
pretty fast. So it's, I don't know, man.
I haven't figured it out. I feel like it comes naturally
to me more than it does most people.
And I don't say that to, like, brag, but people say that quite
frequently. And I don't, I'm trying to
understand, like, is that can you just be born with something
like that? Like, is it just come naturally
to certain people? Like, how do you teach that to
people? But to answer your question

(41:22):
like, yeah, I guess so, yeah. Yeah, yeah, it's, I mean,
certainly some people have a much better feeling, feeling of
the water generally. And I don't know if that's from
maybe having more experience as a is a child or, or they're just
a bit more relaxed once they're in there.
I, I don't know what it is. There's probably a lot of
factors there. But I think, yeah, I think a lot

(41:44):
of the stuff can be, can be taught, especially if someone's
getting in the water consistently.
Like one of the questions we gotquite a lot last week was, you
know, should I do like, should Ido like one really big session a
week or would I be better doing like 3 swims?
And I think like that consistency of just getting in
regularly makes such a difference.

(42:06):
And we had a two weeks in the Maldives a few weeks back on
with some camps and myself and other coaches would get in the
water at 6:00 every morning and just swim around the island 1.8
kilometers. Like not huge, but we just kind
of go around the island fairly comfortably.
And I came back from that camp and jump back into my squad and

(42:26):
I was absolutely flying. No, just like the first session
back, I was swimming so well. And it was less something that
I'd normally do in a week, but because I was in there every
day, I, I think that that just helped with that feeling and
sensation. And yeah.
And so I think that consistency is a big one for for swimming,
especially for feel for the water.
Yeah, I think that that needs tobe talked about more because I

(42:48):
see so many people are like, oh,I got to get in 25,000 KA week
and there's something to be saidabout the endurance, I guess.
But honestly, man, like I went from going into World Champs a
year and a half ago, you know, trying to do like 1015 KA week
and honestly into this Iron Man,I was doing like six to seven,
but I was increase the consistency and I swam by far my

(43:10):
best that I've ever swam in an Iron Man.
And I was like, OK, this has to be changed because I feel like
I'm probably over training or I was over training.
And I don't know if any, everybody can say that, but I'm
telling my athletes now like, yeah, consistency over quantity.
I would say every day because everyone gets so obsessed with
like, oh, I got to get above 3K,oh, I'm going to get 4.
Did I have a 5K day or whatever.And I guess it's different for

(43:32):
every type of sport. I wouldn't tell an Olympian
that, obviously, but yeah. Yeah, especially for the
average, average person who might only be getting in twice a
week, it's like you'll probably benefit a lot from if you can
get in three or four swims, evenif they're a bit shorter.
I think you'll really feel, feelthe difference there because any
time I've done like a bigger training block or multiple days

(43:55):
in a row, like it's just you really start to to connect with
the water so much better when you do it.
So yeah, I mean, it's whatever you can fit in.
Some people are busy, as I understand.
So yeah, you've got two other sports to think about too.
So yeah, it's whatever you can do.
Right. So let's talk about your podcast
for a minute. You have I think 350 plus

(44:17):
episodes now. Is that correct?
Yeah, I think we nearly at 4, nearly at 400.
Nearly at 400 now. OK, so that's a.
Lot yeah, like we started a longtime ago and I'd have to look at
when the first one was, but it'sprobably 1314 years ago and I
had AI had a coach back then like like a business coach who's
like I think you should start a podcast.

(44:39):
And, and I thought, Jesus, who am I to firstly, who wants to
listen to me talk about, about swimming like that imposter
syndrome, like, you know who, who's going to want to listen to
this? But then I got introduced to a
well through a friend to an Australian Olympian, Michael
Klim, who was making a comeback that year.
So he was in the 2000 Olympics. He was like one of the golden

(45:02):
swimmers for Australia. But he was making a comeback in
2011, two, 1012, I think it was.So now I invited him on the
podcast and I was so nervous getting him on like Oh my God,
this this idol of my. Legend, yeah.
And it was just like, I was stiff as a board.
It was just like, I had these questions and I just looked at
them and I asked them and then made for him to answer.

(45:25):
It was, I can't bring myself to listen to that episode.
But you know, it's just like those things that are maybe a
bit uncomfortable, I'll look back and go, well, now I'm like,
a podcast is easy to do. Even if it's with someone who's
an Olympian, it's like, yeah, OK, I still get a little bit
little bit nervous talking to them, especially if they're
someone who I've looked up to oridolised.
And maybe I don't know that, that well, but I think it, I'm

(45:49):
so glad I made that decision to do something that was
uncomfortable. Because now in terms of just
being able to, to chat and to converse and to, to do something
like this has has paid off a lotwith, with coaching and, and
other things. And also just, yeah, the network
that you make and the people that you meet.
So, yeah, it was, it was a long time ago, but I'm glad I made

(46:11):
that, that leap. Yeah.
So, but I mean, like you're probably, you're catching up
pretty quickly. So.
Yeah. And you've only been doing it a
couple years, so I probably should get my act into gear a
bit more. No, man, not at all, because I
think what you do like you do sowell, like you put out very
consistent, at least from last Isaw like very consistent get
content on the video side, analysis side.

(46:31):
And it always amazes me like howmany how much traction your
stuff gets. And I guess, like you just
really have cornered a market sowell on people want to learn how
to swim better and faster. And I honestly would have never
guessed that there's that many people out there who care that
much about swimming, to be honest.
I mean, I'm very naive, but it'sit's quite mind blowing.

(46:52):
So right on to you. Like, I think it's amazing that
you've been able to do it for solong and continue to do it.
Yeah. Yeah, let's always look at
things from the lens of could I,could I keep doing this for the
next five years or 10 years? Like could I keep up this this
schedule for the next 5 or 10 years?
So, you know, if I do a podcast a week, if I do a YouTube video

(47:15):
a week and I have my team do ourInstagram, stuff like that to me
is very sustainable. So I can keep that, that cadence
going for a long time. So I've always just, I've tried
to keep it pretty much an episode a week.
Yeah, sometimes we miss it. But yeah, that sort of
consistency I think has has helped.
And there's, there's a lot of people out there who even if,

(47:37):
whether they're triathletes or not, there's a lot of people out
there who want to learn how to swim.
But it's just so confusing. Like, they think I'll be fine.
They get in, they completely blow up.
Blow up. Yeah, after 50 meters.
And they go, OK, there's, there's more to it.
And yeah, there's, there's millions of people across the
world who are in that sort of, yeah, in that zone.

(47:58):
So, yeah, in that experience. So yeah.
And, and for me, I've like, I really like freestyle.
That's a stroke. It's like, that's my favorite
stroke. So I'm happy just like just
talking freestyle. And that's obviously what most
beginners wanna do. That's what most triathletes
wanna do. And anytime I've done content or
podcast that's like deviates toofar from that or, or sort of

(48:22):
anything triathlon related, it doesn't do that well.
So I've just tried to get reallygood at a very specific part of
swimming and, and just talk about that.
And it's likely that I enjoy that.
If it was backstroke or something, I'd be like, oh geez,
alright, yeah, I probably, I probably would have stopped, but
yeah, yeah, I know. I just, I really, really enjoy

(48:44):
it. And I think there's so much I
can still learn about it from, from other people and some of
the yeah, other things I can take on board and, and teach
different cues, different drillsand that sort of stuff.
Yeah. So yeah, I think that's why I've
been able to keep, keep going. Plus I've got a team in place
that helps me do all of this too.
So that certainly made a difference.
Like if it was just me, I think I'd, yeah, I probably wouldn't

(49:07):
be able to put out as much as wedo.
But yeah, yeah, with the team itcertainly makes a difference.
I'm glad you mentioned that because I have a selfish
question. Like when, when did you get to a
place where you realize like, OK, this is I, I'm going to go
ahead and start formulating A-Team to make sure that, you
know, I can keep up with the, the, these things.
Like, was it a financial point? Was it a time point?

(49:29):
And you leaped out in faith to set up the team before you had
the finances to necessarily liketruly support it?
Like what was your experience? Yeah, I don't.
I think it got to the point where I like we're getting maybe
wasn't even many, maybe 6 to 10,like inquiries a day.
But then I'd go 3 days and I hadn't replied and say, oh,
there's 30 emails I've got to get back to.

(49:50):
So from memory, 'cause this is awhile back, it got to that point
where I'm like, I just need someone to help me with that
firstly, yeah. And then it got to the point
where it's like, all right, well, I've recorded these
podcast episodes, but I haven't put them out because like, I
just feel like I don't have the time to, to edit them.
So let's just get it in place. And then that'll free me up to
do some, some other stuff. So I can't remember whether or

(50:13):
not it was a financially good decision or not back then.
It probably wasn't. But just got to the point where,
like, I wasn't like, I was, I was stuck because it's like,
well, I've got to make a decision here one way or the
other. Yeah, yeah.
And so it's like, and like the people who I've got now have
been with me for like, I don't know, 8, maybe maybe 8 years.

(50:36):
So I had someone for about 6 years and then I had had another
person for about 8 years and they're still with me.
And the others have been with mefor maybe 5 or 6 years.
So yeah, I try and like find good people and train them up
and, you know, and, and just bring them into the, bring them
into the fold. And because I want to work with

(50:56):
people for a very long, long time if they're good people.
Same with coaches as well. One of my coaches has been with
me for 10 or 11 years and yeah, just like, I don't know, I think
if you, if you treat people, treat people well.
And I think I'm, I'm, I'm prettylaid back, kind of boss in a
way. Maybe too much at times, but

(51:18):
yeah, just kind of giving peopleautonomy over, over what they're
they're doing. And it comes, it comes into
coaching as well. It's like, well, I could tell
you, I could tell you what to do, but if you can own that
decision, then you're more likely to to do it.
So I think my coaching approach is, is like, alright, this is
what we, this is what might needto happen.

(51:39):
Like how do you, how do you think you can get to this, this
point? And obviously they might need
some input from me, but it's like, I'd much prefer them to
have to sort of come up with theanswers themselves a lot of
times. And, and that way they're more
likely to, to do it because I'vefound that for me, it's like if
someone's told me to do something, my immediate reaction
is like, yeah, bugger off. Like, no, I'm not, I'm not going

(52:01):
to do that. But if they've asked me, ask me
certain questions and I, I come up with a solution myself, I'm
more likely to do it. So I've tried to take that into
my coaching. But then on the other side of
that, too, coming back to like learning from, say, Sharon on
this trip, it's like it doesn't hurt to be direct as well.
Like it can really pay off just to say, like, all right, you're

(52:21):
over rotating. Like you only need half of that.
Just short, simple direct. That's also good.
So I think that's like, that's probably one of the things that
I could improve my own coaching is more of that Directness can
be very useful at times as well.How does that come into play
with your leadership of a team? Are you good at that?

(52:43):
I, yeah, I'm OK at it. I think I could certainly be
better, especially in terms of like vision where we're going
and that sort of thing. Like I'm probably could
communicate that sort of stuff alot, a lot better because I've
like, I've got it up here. I know where we want to go, but
then just verbalizing that's probably not my, my strong

(53:04):
point. So I've tried to, yeah, tried to
do a better, better job at that.But I don't know, Maybe I'm
being too hard on myself. I don't know.
But it's. Like that's usually the case.
That's usually the case, I thinkwith most people, yeah, it's you
got to usually worry about the people that are saying that
they're great. So my next question is like, are
you a good leader? I'm a good leader.

(53:28):
I yeah, I would like, I'd like to think so.
Yeah, I'd like to to think so. But there's a lot of stuff that
I could, I could improve, improve on.
So yeah, I don't know. I'm reluctant to say, reluctant
to say yes because I, I think I just see the holes in my game.

(53:50):
But then, yeah, based on like having people have stuck with me
for a very long time, I'd like to think I'm doing something,
something right. And it is, it is nice to have
like other coaches like approachme and say, look, I'd like to to
work with you or do something with you.
So something in in like that's like, all right, well, maybe

(54:12):
there's there's something that I'm giving off that's like, you
know, appealing to to other people, but I don't know.
I don't know. I don't like to think too much
about it, really. Yeah.
Do you feel like you don't like to think about it?
But do you, do you have a because most of us do have a
pretty loud inner critic. Like, do you feel like you have
a pretty loud inner critic? Yeah, yeah.

(54:34):
Oh, yeah. I do think, I do think so, yeah.
I guess I see all the stuff that, that I could be doing
better, but I don't know on the other side of that.
That too though, I'm like, well,like at the end of the day, it's
like if you, if you've done yourbest, then like that's, that's
all that really matters. And I most of the time, any

(54:58):
frustration that I have often comes from if I feel like I
could have done more or could have done better at something or
I haven't delivered on somethingthat I've I've promised for, for
someone in a, in the time frame that they've, that I've said
I'll do it in. So it's probably, that's
probably where any sort of frustration comes from.
But I think the good thing aboutthat is obviously, well, if OK,

(55:19):
you care or I care about, I careabout it.
So that's like that's the most important thing.
Whereas if I'm Michael, it doesn't matter if I promised to
do this and didn't do it, well, like there's a problem, a
problem there. So yeah, I don't know if that
answered the question at all, but.
Yeah, that answers your question.
That answers my question quite well.
Thank you for for sharing what you did.

(55:40):
So let me ask you this question.Who do you think is most proud
of you? Yeah, probably be probably two
people coming to mind, like 1 would be my parents, I think,
because I feel like they did a they did a good job of raising
me and yeah, they would certainly be proud.

(56:04):
And and like they've said that quite regularly, which is which
is nice. And then probably my yeah,
probably my wife as well. Like she when I first started
effortless swimming, she was shewas working full time.
She was like, she was the the primary breed when I I.
Remember. That Yeah.
And I was just like, I wasn't bringing in much at all.

(56:25):
And we got to that point where we're gonna have kids and she
wasn't gonna be working. So she's like, you either have
to get a job or you have to makethis effort for swimming thing
work. So, yeah.
All right. Well, time to time to do that.
So anyway, we'd like put the head down and for the last 10
years, it's like it's really grown and we've made it work and
and she's now able to stay home with the kids.

(56:46):
And so I think her as as well would would say that.
So yeah, probably, probably those two more than any.
And like, I think in the grand scheme of things, like there's
not, there's not a lot of peoplewho like really care about what
you're, you're doing. Like it's, it's just going to be
family, maybe a handful of friends.

(57:07):
And so it's like, all right, if I can make those people happy
or, or proud, then I feel like I've done a pretty good job.
So as a husband and a father, how good does it feel to have
something that you created, be self-sustaining to where you are
can provide for your family? It's make me think about all

(57:29):
these things that I've, I've just kind of like pushed to the
side, you know, big questions works.
That's what you get when you've done so many podcasts in two
years like you have. I know we're we're going off
script. I want to get off the cuff here.
I want to get all the off the cuff stuff.
Telling me, jeez, yeah, like it's, it's really nice to have

(57:49):
the freedom, kind of the freedomto do what I'd like to do and do
and do it when it, when I'd liketo, to do it as well.
And it's something that like when I was 21, I sat down, write
a list of about 12 things that Iwant my life to, to look like.
And one of them was like kind ofbeing able to, to surf when it's

(58:10):
good to work with the people I want to work with and, and
choose to do the things I want to do.
And it's taken a very long time to come to fruition.
But I mean, I've, I've certainlyworked hard at it and thought
about it for the last 1718 yearsof, of getting to this, this
point. So I, I think I'll probably
neglect to think about how long it's taken and the amount of

(58:33):
work I've put in to get there. But certainly when I speak to
friends and stuff like that, they're a lot of them are not,
not, not jealous or envious, butthey're like, man, that'd be
real. I'd love to be able to, to do
that. So I think just kind of hearing
that from them because I've beendoing like, you know, when
you're in something, you don't really notice it so much when

(58:54):
you're in the thick of it. But when I hear it from them,
it's probably like, yeah, you'reright.
Like this is actually pretty cool to be able to to to do this
and to have a bit of an audienceonline and to be able to do
something I really enjoy, which is not necessarily the case for
for everyone. So I'll probably see it more
through their eyes than my own, just being in it because, yeah,

(59:16):
you still have problems. You still have like things that
come up and things you've got tofix and and all of that.
So I guess I'm in the thick of it and don't step back and and
notice that quite so much. Yeah, how old are your kids now?
9:00 and 7:00. 9:00 and 7:00. Yeah, two boys.
Yeah, Oh yeah, and they're. Wild at the moment, but they

(59:38):
love they do like swimming and they're they're not bad little
swimmers, but I just try and I try and trick them to swim
better because they don't listento me ever.
So it's like I'll try and trick them into becoming better
swimmers or wanting to like learn more and get better at it.
Like you might have competitionsin all right, who can get the
furthest off the wall? And or I'll say like they've got

(01:00:00):
a friend of mine that they look up to who's a coach.
I'll say, Oh, like, Oh, big Sam said that if you do this when
you're doing freestyle, like yougo way faster and they're like,
oh, oh, cool. And then they try it.
It's like, so it's never coming from me.
So I try and try and trick them.Yeah, yeah, That's fascinating.
It's always, it is fascinating to me.
So my wife's pregnant, she'll be20-3 weeks with our first kid.

(01:00:20):
And so I've been thinking a lot about, you know, the motivation.
Thank you. Thinking about the motivations
and how they change it from an individual from, you know, one
to three, like you're saying three to seven, I don't know, 7
to 13. Like the the things that
motivate us and the perspective we have, it changes so
drastically. Like even me from 20 years old
to now 33, the things that driveme are so incredibly different.

(01:00:44):
And I'm trying to think of like,well, how, how do I understand
truly the motivation of an individual, especially a kid,
you know, because there's some things I think that are like,
oh, well, a one year old needs food.
So that's the, you know, like that kind of stuff.
But like to truly know a person or your kid, like what, what do
you have to observe to, to like TuneIn to like how you feel the

(01:01:06):
water TuneIn to like know your child enough to know, Oh, well,
what's that motivation coming from?
So that's cool that you're figuring some of that out.
Yeah, it's good. It's good fun.
And I think for me, it's the thething that's one of the things
that's changed the most is I, I care much less about what other
people think and more so about like what what my kids think of

(01:01:27):
me. And part of that's also in like
how I dress. If I'm going down the street,
it's just like I've totally I'veturned into a total dad.
It's like I couldn't care less like how I look.
Whereas I-10 years ago, you know, before kids, I was just
like, I want to make sure I don't look like a complete bum
as I'm going down to the shops, but now I just, I don't care.
Yeah, yeah. That's the biggest thing.

(01:01:48):
It's so funny you say that because this morning I was
thinking about a similar thing 'cause I had to go pick
something up from my wifes work.Actually to plug this sign in
she let someone use this chargedcord for something at a wedding.
Anyway, I went to go pick it up.I'm obviously very sore.
I was wearing sweatpants, socks with flip flops, like this long
sleeve hoodie with this way too big for me Eddie Bauer coat and

(01:02:11):
like a precision fuel and hydration beanie.
And I look with glasses and I looked like absolutely
ridiculous. But I got out of the car, kind
of chuckled to myself and went to go buy a doughnut because
that's what I wanted on the way home.
And I was like, I don't care anymore.
Like and that's a beautiful thing to be able to do that and
not really care because people I'm sure we're looking like,
what is this guy off the street?Like what?
Yeah, but it's, it's, I mean, I looked at, I look at my parents

(01:02:34):
back when I was a teenager and they're exactly the same.
And you go, oh, I can't believe.Yeah, I can't be in.
Public with you, yeah, but. Now you can see it.
You can see and it's a beautifulthing when you're you're the one
who's in that frame of mind. Yeah, yeah, it's so cool.
Just a couple more questions foryou.
So two of them are pretty deep. So prepare yourself.

(01:02:55):
What is something difficult thatyou're going through that not
many people see? It's probably at the moment it's
building our like swim equipment, goggles sort of side

(01:03:15):
of the business. So like what I've done forever
is the swim coaching we do that camps and clinics and all those
things. And like that I can do with my
eyes closed because it's been 18years of doing it.
And then six months ago we, we started like these anti fog
goggles and other things. And it's just a whole different
side and a whole different business that I'm not used to

(01:03:38):
and it's not my my specialty. So like there we, there's been a
lot of challenges with, with that and it's like I'm putting
in a lot more hours than I have for many, many years just trying
to work through these challengesthat we're having.
Like, you know, like the US tariff stuff came in.
So we had all these US orders that we couldn't send and then
we sent them out and then they got returned because something

(01:04:00):
wasn't right on the forms. And so it's like just like
that's one example of things that have.
Come Customs and Border, yeah. All that sort of stuff and then
yeah, there's manufacturing issues and all this sort of
stuff. So it's yeah, it's actually that
that's probably my biggest challenge at the moment that I
wouldn't normally verbalize. It's just like, all right, let's
just get going because I'm planning is not going to help.

(01:04:24):
But yeah, that's that's probablythis is probably one of the more
challenging things that I've been going through recently and
because, I mean I'm sort of quite lucky at the moment, like
families all healthy and that kind of thing.
So there's nothing like there that's existential I'm having.
Yeah, yeah. So yeah, it's it's a good
problem to have right now, but certainly frustrating at times.

(01:04:47):
But you just got to keep going. Yeah, no kidding, man.
No, manufacturing a physical product rather than a service is
so crazy. I had an opportunity to do it in
a few instances. None I would say super well, by
the way. But manufacturing, it's like,
well, you get something, you plan for it, and then you get it
and then you're like, oh, this isn't right.
And now we have thousands of them.
Like, what am I going to do there?

(01:05:07):
Or the Border Customs and BorderPatrol.
I've dealt with logistic nightmares during COVID for that
kind of crazy stuff. So I I can empathize with you a
bit and like, yeah, are you, I'mcurious to hear a little bit
more about the anti fog goggles in the last few minutes, if
that's OK. Like obviously you saw a need,
you're filling that need. But how did you even come to a
place where you had the faith and courage, I guess, to step

(01:05:29):
out to chase this part of the a new business line of revenue
product service? Yeah.
Well, yeah, I got, I got sent a pair of these goggles and I was
like, oh, I'll give them a try because it's something that I've
always dealt with, especially going on a lot of overseas camps
where we go to these really nicelocations.
There's fish and there's sharks and there's turtles and goggles

(01:05:49):
are fogged half the time. So I miss half of it.
So it was a problem that I was having and I got sent these
goggles and I was like, man, this is actually really good.
And so I was all right, I'll buy60 or 80 of them and I'll offer
them to our to our swimmers. And then they sold really
quickly. And I thought, oh, that's,
that's cool. Like a lot of other people are
having the same problems. So, yeah, it just kind of took

(01:06:10):
off from from there and it's really started to grow and
bigger than what I had expected or could have planned for.
So now it's just kind of dealingwith yeah, with with all of
that. And then yeah, everything that
that goes around it. So, but I, I like, I really like
it because I, I really like the product.

(01:06:31):
This like new anti fog technology has only been around
I think about two years and it it takes twice as long.
It costs twice as much to to produce.
So it's like there's some issueswith with that, but it's like
it's, I think for people who arein the water a lot, like they
enjoy their swing so much more. And I find the same thing.
If I have to go back to an old pair of goggles, I'm like the

(01:06:54):
fog, I get really agitated by now.
So yeah. So like I really, it's a product
I really, yeah, believe in and and I want people to have so
keen to, yeah, keen to really just get it out to as many
people as we can. Yeah.
With the technology, is this something like, is it, it's not
a film application, Is it a material science difference?

(01:07:15):
Like what's the what is it? If you're, are you allowed to
say? Yeah, so like how that normal
anti fog is like this gel liquidstuff that they'd put inside and
then it would dry. But eventually it's going to
just, you know, wear off the thelens.
But this new technologies, they do the, I think it's like, I
think it's with like a laser, they like cut these very fine

(01:07:35):
grooves into it. So the water's attracted to it.
So you wet the lens 1st and the water's attracted to it and then
it creates a a film of water over the lens.
So it's like this thing that actually do to the lens to make
the water attracted to it. Yeah.
And then it, that's why it's, itlasts about 10 times longer.
So yeah, yeah. And it's, yeah, noticeably

(01:07:58):
better. Yeah.
So I have to send just them out.We've got some new ones coming
two weeks time or three weeks time, so I'll send you some out.
Yeah. And just let me know what you
think. Yeah, for sure.
Yeah. If you have, are you?
If you're selling them now, I'd be happy to link them in the
show notes. I'm sure people are going to
want to look at them. Yeah, I'll shoot you the the
link, but we can't send to the US right now, but in three weeks
we will be able to. So, OK, nice, nice, Yeah.

(01:08:19):
We're getting that sorted. Yeah, well, if you need help
with smuggling, I'm your guy. Yeah, yeah, that's cool.
That part in. Yeah, exactly.
So one more question for you to close it out, and it's a selfish
question because you are a father of two, so I'm going to
be a dad before too terribly long.
What kind of advice do you have for me on being a dad?

(01:08:40):
I. Think, well, probably 1 of the
mistakes that I've made is just being on my phone more than I
should, being around the kids. So what I'm trying to do a lot
more of is just like put the phone away, especially after,

(01:09:03):
say, 5:00, just so that I'm morepresent with them.
It's just, it's very easy, especially especially when
they're young, I mean, when they're a baby, like they're not
paying too much attention. And I think that first six
months is just, for us, it was just survival of the baby and of
ourselves. Yeah.
But then when they get a bit older 123, they're really much

(01:09:25):
more aware of what you're doing.So yeah, just getting off the
off the phone more and being, being present would be the
probably the, the main one that I feel like I could have done a
better job at. But anyway, that's the power of
hindsight. Yeah, for sure.
Well, thanks for that. Thank you so much and thank you
so much for taking the time, sharing your journey, talking
about swimming and what you're doing.

(01:09:47):
Super grateful to know you and to have you on for a second
time, even though it's been 2 years.
Hopefully the next time it won'tbe so long in between, but thank
you for your time. And yeah dude, it was.
It was an honor and a pleasure to get to chat again.
Yeah, well, there thanks for having me on.
And I'm just so impressed with how well you've done over the
last two years with the with theshow that many episodes that
many like top level guests that you've had on is is pretty

(01:10:12):
awesome. And had someone actually
mentioned your show last last week, it was on the camp head
coach. He's non non.
Stanford, yeah. Yeah.
And so she said. Yeah, she was on the Yeah, she
was on your show. I was like small world.
Yeah, it is a small world, man. It really is it.
And no one's figured out that it's not really that big of a

(01:10:34):
show yet, so people keep saying yes.
So I'm very fortunate. But yeah, non's awesome.
And you as well. But yeah, thank you.
I appreciate the affirmation. It's been fun.
And I'm, I'm very blessed and honored to be able to do it.
So thank you. Awesome.
Thanks, Seth. Good to chat.
Great conversation with Brenton man.
I have to say I love the new guests and having fresh people

(01:10:56):
on the show for sure. But there is something to be
relished and enjoyed about having someone on who is around
2 round 3 or plus interview. Just getting to have a little
bit of that rapport and connection and go a little bit
deeper. Super fun.
Obviously I love talking about swimming because I like swimming
a lot and what Brenton is doing over effortless swimming.
Effortless swimming is helping alot of people to enjoy it more,

(01:11:18):
so if you are looking to enjoy some swimming some more in your
life, make sure to check out their stuff.
It's really good. And Brenton's obviously a really
nice guy. Yeah, good advice for me on how
to be a better dad or prepared to be a dad.
Stay off my phone more. I think that's something I'm
going to definitely put into practice because it's something
I've been thinking a lot about is as I have observed some of my
friends and family who have kidsbe on their phone quite a bit.

(01:11:40):
I'm like, oh, that's interestingbecause I can watch the kids
behavior and how they watch their parents be on their phone.
And you know, it's interesting. I'll say this last thing, there
are some studies put out and when Colin Chartier and I talked
about this, but the link betweenADHD and other just
developmental abnormalities, theconnection between those and

(01:12:04):
early stage childhood and the parents connection physically
like eye to eye connection with the kids and how that can be
related to having issues. So more connection with your
family is definitely important and I take Brenton's advice to
heart. So thank you guys for being
here. Thanks for listening to the
podcast. Look forward to connecting with
you in the next one and we'll catch you then.

(01:12:25):
See ya.