#204 - Lisa Bourgoyne, CEO of The Landing - Where Sexual Abuse Meets Hope: Inside the Work of The Landing

In this deeply personal and unexpectedly vulnerable episode, I sit down with Lisa Burgoyne, CEO of The Landing—a Houston-based nonprofit serving survivors of human trafficking and commercial sexual exploitation through trauma-informed, Christ-centered care. Lisa’s decades of experience in child advocacy, counseling, and frontline anti-trafficking work give her a perspective that is both sobering and full of hope.

What begins as a conversation about her life and mission becomes something more. As Lisa opens up about the realities survivors face—trauma, homelessness, addiction, broken family systems—I find myself drawn into sharing parts of my own story, wrestling aloud with trust, childhood wounds, and the long, messy process of healing. Together, we talk through why sexual abuse persists, how pornography and unchecked appetites fuel exploitation, why so many victims go unseen, and what it takes to rebuild a life after trauma.

Lisa brings clarity, compassion, and wisdom to an issue most people avoid because it feels too dark to face. She also offers practical insight into recognizing secondary trauma, the cost of leading in this space, and how faith and community make this work sustainable.

Whether you’ve experienced trauma, love someone who has, or simply want to understand the world more honestly, this conversation will likely hit deeper than expected. And if you feel moved to support Lisa’s work, visit thelanding.org—even a small act can make a real impact.

Lisa’s IG: https://www.instagram.com/lisabourgoyne/ 

The Landing: https://thelanding.org 

The Landing IG: https://www.instagram.com/thelanding_hou/

Support the Pod: ⁠https://stupidquestions.show/pages/sq-merch⁠ 

Newsletter: ⁠https://stupidquestions.show/pages/newsletter-signup⁠ 

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Hello everyone, Welcome back to another edition of the Stupid
Questions podcast. Today in the pod, we're going to
be talking with Lisa Burgoyne. You may remember Lucas, we're
going. He was on the podcast not too
long ago, a professional cyclist.
Anyway, this is his mother and she is the CEO of The Landing,
which is a Houston based nonprofit dedicated to serving
survivors of human trafficking, commercial sexual exploitation

(00:22):
with a trauma informed approach fueled by the love of Christ.
That is the description of what she does.
She's an amazing person. In this conversation is a bit
different. I don't know if it's necessarily
just me and maybe my fuzzy braina little bit, but with whatever
I've got going on internally, the conversation sparked me to
share a little bit of some of the things that I've been
through and then really was seeking from her, I guess, some

(00:45):
advice and just kind of opening up the space for her to get the
opportunity to give me a little direction.
I didn't necessarily want to seek that type of advice in this
podcast, but that's what ended up happening.
Let the spirit move, if you will.
It was a great, really great conversation and she did really
awesome, has an amazing story and is doing amazing things.
And we'll definitely have her onagain.

(01:06):
So don't want to spoil too much.But if you do want to help
support her cause in any way, check out the show notes, links
to the landing org. And yeah, make sure to check all
the show notes and descriptions for any all other ways to help
out the podcast as well. All right, thank you guys so
much for listening my spiel. And without further ado, when it
lists introduce you to Lisa, we're going.

(01:29):
Lisa, thank you so much for taking the time to jump on the
podcast. It's been an honor to meet some
of the people who are more closely tied to your life
through Luke and Lucas, but so awesome to get connected with
you. Just thank you first of all for
being on here and chatting with me.
Absolutely. Thanks for having me.
Great guys by the way. Oh yeah, they are great guys.
I look forward to. It's funny, I haven't been as

(01:50):
involved in the professional Cycling World as much.
It's been more triathlon and so I'm trying to branch out.
So it's been cool to get to knowthem and then through their
mutual connections, I've gotten to know quite a few people, even
a Formula E driver, I guess thatthey got to meet at a track
somewhere, so. Oh wow, yeah, they are cool
guys. Great personalities and yeah,
wonderful connections. Connectors.

(02:11):
Yeah. So where are you at right now?
I am. I'm at the landing, I'm at work.
It is Monday morning. Hit the ground running.
Yeah, no kidding. Were you?
Did you take off most of last week for Thanksgiving?
I took off a couple of days. We actually have a Thanksgiving
drive, so I wanted to be in for that because I'm relatively new
to the landing and we fed about 150 families last week, which

(02:36):
was pretty awesome. So I didn't want to miss that
opportunity. So did that and then then took
some time off and just had some downtime and with family, which
was great. Yeah, Yeah, that's awesome.
So you said you're relatively new with the Landing.
Where were you at before? I was at the Children's
Assessment Center. It's our child advocacy center

(02:56):
in Harris County, and I spent about 28, almost 28 years at the
advocacy center before coming here.
OK, well so you are from Texas, born and raised.
Houston, TX Yes, born and raisedin Texas.
I was actually born in a small town about an hour outside of
Houston called El Campo. Moved to Houston for college and

(03:17):
have been here ever since. Wow.
So there's so many questions I want to ask and we've already
touched a little bit around yourwork, but we'll definitely get
to that. So I want to start a little bit
earlier in your life, like growing up.
So did you have siblings? I did, yes.
I have two sisters and a brotherwho is no longer with us, so

(03:41):
there were four of us growing up.
Yeah. How long ago did your sibling
pass if you don't mind me asking?
Yeah, it's been, gosh, 2017 he passed away.
Wow. Yeah, so not too long.
He was young too. 4040 ish. Yeah.
Do you mind me asking what happened?
He's in a car accident. Very tragic, very sudden.

(04:02):
Yeah. And it was our only brother kind
of pride and joy of the family. So let me see this.
Sorry. It was pop up on my phone.
Pride and joy of our family. We miss him a lot.
And, you know, around holidays, November's, November's a tough
time for us and our family. We lost, we lost my mom in
November as well during COVID. And so going home is always a

(04:27):
wonderful thing. But it's also, you know, just a
time of reflection and remembrance and you know, some
of the hurts that are there thatare still there from losses, but
but also a really great time of connection too.
Yeah, for sure. I'm curious just because we're
kind of in this vein with, you know, the remembrance and the
reflection that time of year because especially it's more

(04:48):
concentrated around November. Do you notice in yourself
changes in the way that you dealwith just life during that that
time and season? Do you have, do you have like
habitual patterns that you notice change or the way that
you think or feel about things? I think yeah, I think so.
I mean, I it it, it probably hits after and I realized that

(05:09):
after oh, like this is what's going on.
It not always leading up to it. And I think, you know, any kind
of trauma or any loss that you have kind of tends to happen
that way And and then it clicks and it makes sense.
But yeah, for sure your body, you know, body keeps the score.
You remember the the the way that we interact, the way that

(05:30):
we grieve just, you know, just happens naturally, right?
And yeah, so definitely there's a difference.
Yeah. So from your perspective, how
would you say or how what would you say to the question like who
is Lisa? Lisa is probably for the last 24

(05:52):
years, it's been Lucas's mom hashtag mom.
That is a big part of my identity.
I'm a mom, wife Renee, Renee's my husband, and I'm a counselor
by profession. I've been a licensed
professional counselor since theearly 2000s.
I'm a social servant. I'm a believer and I I might.

(06:16):
My service now has taken me to CEO position at the landing.
I'm a good friend, I'm a helper.Yeah, that that helper mentality
because you know, you said you've been involved in social
services and obviously what you're doing now with the
Landing, was that always like a value to you?

(06:36):
Is that something that you grew up with?
Was that something that you're avalue that your family instilled
in you or how do you think it balances out?
Oh, most definitely. My, my mom, I would say, is
probably the greatest influence on my life and my life's work.
She, from the time I can remember, just had us
volunteering, whether it was at our church or in our community.

(06:59):
I remember as a kid, my sisters and I played the piano and we
sang and we would go to, you know, just nursing homes or
different, different community events and, and my, my mom would
have us entertain visit. And it just has been a way of,
of life. She always believed in giving

(07:20):
back and in service. And I think part of that is, you
know, her faith, her Christianity, the faith that we
were raised with. And yeah, I think it's
definitely always been a part of, of who I, who I am.
Yeah. It's, you know, it's interesting
when growing up, we also went todifferent nursing homes or old
folks homes to go and play music.

(07:41):
And we most, most often sing. But as we got older, we got to
take some instruments. And it was such a good
environment, honestly, to learn how to perform a little bit, but
then also to realize like, oh, wow, this adds actual value to
other people. Because most of the times I
think when I was younger, it waslike, oh, I want to perform this
so I feel good rather than what it can be given.
Yeah. It's interesting.
Right. There's so much joy in that and

(08:03):
such a little thing on our part to to show up.
But the reach is far for sure. Yeah.
Did you ever go through a time when you found that, OK, well,
like this way of life, these sets of values, Christianity
like, became more of your own? Did you ever go to through a
time when you're like, maybe this isn't for me and.

(08:25):
I think it's always been a part of who I am.
Did I question probably when I when I left home and moved to
college? I think there's a normal
questioning of like is is this is this me?
Is this my belief? Is this?
Yes, exactly what what you're what you're asking.

(08:50):
I would say more during my college years, I stepped away
from the the traditional beliefsmy parents have, but I always
found my way back. And I feel like there were some
years there where like you're just figuring things out for
yourself and it doesn't take long to come back to like what

(09:13):
really matters and what's reallyimportant.
I remember moving to Houston, mymom would always say like the
most important things were, wereto like find a place to serve
and find a church. Like those were the two things.
And that those were questions she'd ask every time she checked
in. Have you found a place to serve
and you found a, have you found a church?
Because those were things she knew that would keep us grounded

(09:35):
and reminded of where we came from and what was important in
life. And so I quickly found a church
and found a place to serve. And, and I think those early
years of serving on my own kind of lead where, where the, I was
talking about actually talking to an intern this morning and
about my early service years andhow I, how I landed in this

(09:56):
position. And I started at the Covenant
House in like full circle because the Covenant House is
very similar to the landing, which is where I am now.
And except they served youth andit was a lot of youth who were
homeless and displaced living onthe lower streets of Westheimer,
you know, ingrained in human trafficking and commercial

(10:16):
sexual exploitation. And then Fast forward 20, you
know, it was 30 years. And and here I am again,
starting on this journey but more focused on adults and
teenagers. Yeah, as you move through those
ranks and started to learn more about yourself, did you, did you
consider yourself a leader? Do you consider yourself like a
leader now? Definitely.

(10:38):
So, servant leader? Yeah, for sure.
Yeah. How how is the that journey
like? What has it taught you about
leadership? Because in the beginning, you
know, with the different levels of service you were going
through working at the Covenant House and you know, you said
being involved as like a servantleader early on.
Most of the times those are fromlike volunteer positions.
So you're working with other people and following their

(11:00):
vision. And obviously you have your own
direct influence, but now it's in a position as a leader.
How has that changed? Because I've served for so long,
I have always felt like we can do more.
Like just internally, no matter where I was serving, no matter
what I was doing, I just always had this feeling like we can do

(11:20):
more. And in a leadership position,
you have the opportunity to do more.
And when I say that, like it's not, it's not the title, it's
not the position that you're in it you can lead from, from
wherever, even as the volunteer,right?
When you see a way, say that youcan do something better, where
you can serve more, where you can give more, where you can

(11:42):
impact more lives. Like I think I've, I think
that's always been a little bit of part of me, whether I was,
you know, volunteering for free or in a leadership or an
executive leadership position. Yeah.
When how long ago was college for you like and what did you
take there? A very long time ago I went to

(12:04):
college and I graduated from high school in 89.
So I went to College in the early 90s.
I psychology background for undergrad and sociology and then
for Graduate School again, educational psychology.
I knew that I wanted to work with children.
I didn't know what capacity, butI knew I wanted to work with

(12:24):
kids. Yeah.
Where do you think that that came from?
Like, why? Why kids in the beginning?
Also probably something influenced by my mom.
She was always a Sunday school teacher.
She was always a mom to kids from broken homes.
She was always she was always a helper.
And I think I just I grew up in that and it was familiar.

(12:47):
It was what I knew. And I think, you know, something
I gravitated towards, you know, kids are so innocent and
resilient and there's so much hope that that you get from
kids, even as an adult. And so I think I've always just

(13:09):
pulled, been pulled in that direction, like really believing
that we can trans, you know, transform lives really if if you
can impact the life of a child, like you can change the
trajectory of so many lives through one child who gets an
opportunity that they may not have gotten otherwise.

(13:29):
Yeah. Do you have you?
Because you've been doing it fora while now.
Have you seen any kind of full circle moments when you've met
someone, probably at a very low time or a time of need, then you
were able to like impact them and then years later like you
have an interaction with them orhear a story about those kinds
of people and how it's better their life?
Yeah, it's interesting. You don't always get those

(13:51):
moments as a counselor, Like yourarely get those moments, right?
Because people, you spend time with them and you go through a
healing process and at some point they graduate, they finish
their, their, their work with you and then they're, they're
gone, right. And so you don't, you don't get
to see that end point where theyfinally reach, you know,
whatever that path is, because it can take years and years,

(14:12):
especially in the type of work that I do, because it's, you
know, heavily trauma focused. But I, I will say, you know,
there's, when I started my career, I, I worked for Child
Protective Services for about 5 years.
And we just really spent some time with one summer, we

(14:34):
actually had this created a girls group for a number of
girls that we were working with middle school girls and we
volunteered in the community. We took them.
There's no, it doesn't exist anymore, but I'm dating myself
again. There's a place called Astro
World. It's a big amusement park in
Houston. Lots of fun.
People love that place. We we served together, we hung

(14:56):
out together. We talked about life.
Really incredible summer for these girls who would never get
a camp experience because they couldn't afford that or because
they, their parents were just not in a stable place to be able
to provide that for them. And so Fast forward like 20
years and I get a message from aFacebook message.

(15:20):
And it's one of the girls who was a part of that camp.
And she had this box and she sent me a picture in this little
shoe box. And inside of it were the
pictures from that summer and the letter that I wrote her when
we finished the camp that year. And this was just, you know, she
was, she was a, I was working with her, her parents and she

(15:42):
sent me a, she sent a story likeafter that, she held on to this
all these years, right? She's 20 something and she's
holding on to something from junior high.
Like it meant that much to her to keep that.
And her life wasn't easy. She went through a lot of
different homes and transitions,but it was meaningful to her,
right, and created some real impact.

(16:03):
And she shared her story online and, you know, she said things
didn't go the way she wanted them to.
Like it. It didn't work out with her mom.
They continued to struggle like all the things, but at the end
of the day, like she found valuein that and and relationship and
knew that she was loved and cared for and like that really

(16:25):
it meant something, right, Made a difference.
So again, you don't get a whole lot of those moments and and you
know, as a counselor, you get some of them and and that was
one that really meant a lot. It's really special.
Thank you for showing that. Yeah, it's always amazing to me,
you know, in my own life. And then people have observed,
observed as well as they go to try to make an impact in the

(16:47):
world itself. And the things that we forget
about that we do kind of in the,by the way, these small little
moments that make the biggest impact for others.
And for people who have impactedme, yeah, I've gone back to
several of them over the years and be like, hey, this really
meant a lot to me during this time.
They usually don't even remember.
So it's really, it's really interesting how, you know, I'm
going to say, oh, I'm going to have this big speech and it's
going to impact thousands. And then it's like something you

(17:08):
said before the speech or after the speech or a hand you shook
after the event or whatever. It's like these little things
that make the real big difference.
I I, yeah, I agree. I had a mom tell me one time we
were in, in therapy for a long time with a really young child
who who had been assaulted. And she worked so hard to turn

(17:29):
things around for her kids. And there there was a line.
I, you know, saw her again maybe15 years later.
Her kids are teenagers and they,you know, struggling through
some things. And she said, there's something
you said to me a long time ago and it was like, is it working?
And she said, you know, I and I didn't realize I said this.
She's like, is this working? And she said, I have asked

(17:50):
myself that over and over. And every time I have a
challenge, like I can hear your voice and it is, is this
working? And if it's not, let's figure
out something else to do to makethis better.
And so you're right. Like it can be something so
minor that I had no idea meant something to her that she took
away from that and it helped herin parenting her kids through.
There's some really difficult times that's.

(18:13):
A beautiful story with with the different work, just everything
that goes along with like sexualexploitation with kids, with
adults, all these things that you are constantly hearing about
and you're not just hearing about them, but you're meeting
the people who go through these things.
I feel like there's probably a level of trauma that could even
be imposed on yourself just fromhearing and knowing and be

(18:34):
involved with so much of this work.
And maybe that's an unhealthy response.
I don't know exactly what it is.So this may be a dumb question,
but how do you go through these,you know, couple of decades of
work or more with all of these different people hearing of all
these atrocities and then be able to, I guess find peace or
comfort? Or do you have it?

(18:55):
Like, do you, do you sleep well at night?
Like how do you go through thesethings?
I don't sleep. Yeah, I really don't sleep.
No, I, you know, I was a, I was a forensic interviewer for a
number of years and a big portion of my career was in
forensic services. And, and if you don't know what

(19:16):
that is, when a child has been sexually assaulted, a a trained
forensic interviewer will sit with that child and create a
space, a safe space for them to talk about what happened to
them. Talking to somebody versus a
police officer in a police station, their child advocacy
centers where that work is, is done.

(19:37):
And, and you do it five times a day.
And it is probably the most horrific accounts of, of life
that you will ever hear. And these are, you know, these
incredibly beautiful, innocent kids who are going through this
and sharing things that you as an adult maybe haven't even
heard about, right. And and so learning some of life

(19:57):
through kids. I I think there you know, there
are so many things that have helped me I think being.
And a secondary trauma is very real, like it happens.
And and I've, you know, when I teach and train today to
professionals coming into this work, it's like, have whatever
your outlet is like know it going in because it will change

(20:20):
you. It will affect your life.
And you may think like we're allin this to save, save the world
or to make the world a better place or to to do good, but it
is going to have an impact on you.
And you're not going to know it until it's probably too late if
it's right. And I and I, you know, in this
world work, there are a lot of heroes or a lot of champions who
do incredibly hard work. But I've seen a lot of folks

(20:44):
like really crash and burn because it is, it is hard,
right? It is trauma and, and you cannot
avoid it like you're walking into the fire.
So be prepared, as prepared as you can be so that it doesn't
it, you know, doesn't affect youin in such a negative way.
But but it took us a long time. Like child advocacy isn't it

(21:07):
hasn't been around that long. It's like in the 80s that, that
this profession was even, you know, created.
And, and I think we probably were 20 years in before we
really like those of us who stayed in the movement started
talking about how it really impacted our lives, you know,
whether that was through, you know, alcohol or drug addictions

(21:30):
or, you know, just addictions ingeneral, or you could really do
derail yourself. For me, it was my family having.
And I would tell Lucas and and Ren all the time, like things
have to be good at home because they are so messed up in my
daily work. And so when I come home, I just,

(21:52):
I just need it to be good and I need to be wholesome.
And thankfully, you know, Lucas was such an active kid and he
had so, so many. He was always involved in sports
and just, you know, had busy life.
And so my when I left the office, like it was full time
mom mode and, and that took me out into a healthy environment

(22:13):
and, and you know, the opportunity to see something
that was so good, right when yousee brokenness all day long and
to hope that each one of those kids would have that.
I think my faith, you know, church and, and you know, godly
friends, I think that that was also helpful.

(22:34):
And then again, you know, my parents, I leaned on my mom
quite a bit. Just an understanding and coping
and. So what are some of the like
signs because you mentioned earlier like, oh, you know, most
people won't notice until it's too late.
So maybe what are some of like the earlier signs that people
should be aware of if they are this type of work or even if
they're experiencing, you know, the second hand stuff from

(22:57):
someone in their family. What are some of those early
signs that they can notice and then be like, OK, I should
probably find an outlet, get a counselor, whatever to like.
Make sure that you are dealing with these things healthfully.
Early signs, warning signs of probably like the intrusive
thoughts, things playing over and over in in your head again,

(23:19):
I think that's a really good sign when you know, your mood
and your personality start to shift, probably irritability,
starting to feel down or not find joy in the things that
would bring you joy normally. I think those are some real good
signs. You know, if you're a casual

(23:42):
drinker, you might notice that you start to write.
So you're one glass a week, it turned into one glass a day
turns into, you know, 1 bottle that yeah, you're, you're on the
path, right. So yeah, dependencies I think
are, are real good signs. And, and sometimes, you know,

(24:03):
people say you can channel your energy in, in different ways,
like working out is a great way to, to, you know, kind of re re
channel your, your thoughts and your direction, You know, faith,
church, whatever it is, family, relationships, the things that
bring you joy, I think are good ways to, to come out of that

(24:25):
and, and therapy, counseling, see someone, talk to someone
about what's going on with you. Those things are going to help
you. Yeah, for sure with your with
your work now like at the landing, just so people are
clear and totally understand, obviously the CEO there and
you've been working there for a while now.

(24:45):
What specifically do you guys do?
And then how do you as a like the CEO measure?
OK, we're being successful rightnow.
And I mean that's such a terrible term I feel like to use
for this type of work because it's like a success would be it
never happens again and it's always going to happen.
So yeah. So, so the, the, the mission of

(25:07):
the landing is to walk alongsidesurvivors of human trafficking
and commercial sexual exploitation.
We do that through a trauma informed lens and with the love
of Christ. And so those two things being
equal, what that looks like, we are actually located on the

(25:28):
Bissonnette track, which is in Harris County.
One of the trafficking hubs, we are known for that.
And you know, every day when I drive into work like you, it is
visible, it is on our streets, it is all around us.
And there have been a lot of efforts to help folks get off of
the streets and and into care, but it is still very present and

(25:50):
still very real here. Our drop in center, we see
probably 30 to 40 survivors every single day.
We, we're a day center. We're drop in center.
So it's a place where, you know,folks can come in and rest.
It is very low barrier entry. They, they do have to be

(26:11):
survivors. And so there is a screening,
there's an intake that happens when they come to the center.
But outside of that, there are no like huge requirements for
them to be served by us. We want to, we want to be there
when they're ready for services.But if they just want to come in
and rest, they, we have beds that they can take naps on.
We have a kitchen that's available and stocked every day.

(26:32):
We have volunteers that come in and serve hot meals each day and
classes if they choose to participate in recovery classes
or to find housing or to find jobs, some kind of stability.
That's our drop in center and it's specifically for adult
survivors. We also have a youth advocacy
program and that's, that is our advocates who actually go out

(26:56):
into the community and work withteens that have been, you know,
that that have been either trafficked or exploited.
So we've 5 or 6 advocates that do that work as well.
And then we have an outreach team that actually goes out and
lets people know that we're hereand that we're a resource and
that we want to help. So they'll go out to on that,

(27:18):
you know, it's either St. outreach or the courts or
sometimes other organizations and volunteer communities,
church communities, just lettingthem know that we're here and
what we do, how we serve as far as the success, what is a
success? You know, what lets us know?
I think when I, when I, when I come to work every day and I see

(27:43):
that people are here and that the services are needed and that
are, you know, we, the day that I got here, I knew we'd outgrown
our space because you cannot move in in certain parts of our
building because it is overwhelmingly utilized.
And what I've heard from, you know, from our clients is that,

(28:04):
you know, this place, the landing is a home for them.
It's a refuge for them. For some of them, they have
homes, but this is a safe place.This is a place where they feel
community and they feel loved and not judged.
And they know that when they're ready, that their resources,
that there's going to be someonethere to help them with the
resources that they need. The success could just be, you

(28:27):
know, that they made it to the landing and, and through our
doors and had a safe place to befor the, you know, 5 or 6 hours
that they were with us, that they got clothing and they
weren't outside. And you know, the cold and rain
without a, without a jacket or without shoes.
It could be very simple. It could be that they ate today

(28:47):
and that is, that's a success, right?
They made it to us and the bigger wins are, you know, when,
when they do secure housing, when they do, you know, when,
when you they do get into rehab,when they, you know, things like
that. They, they've made some big
steps. We have an empowerment group too
that folks can go through and it's a 10 week program and it is

(29:11):
intensive and it's with our mental health professional and
they commit to like ending the game.
They commit to, you know, life moving forward.
They learn job skills. They, you know, prepare for
interviews. A lot of folks who are invested
in their futures and when they graduate, they get a scholarship
to either start their own business or to attend a trade

(29:34):
school or to go back to Community College or, and, and
those are huge accomplishments. I, I think those are the biggest
celebrations that we have when they graduate from these
programs, you know, but like so many, so many things like you
kind of see the cycle and you see the graduates and you want

(29:56):
that to continue and you want the trajectory to be up and
forward. And the truth is that life is
hard and it's difficult. And outside of that environment,
like we are still trying to figure out the ways to continue
that momentum, to keep them on that trajectory, to continue to
provide that support beyond thatempowerment group until, you
know, they're out on their own. And, and we have seen some

(30:19):
really awesome success stories from that empowerment group as
well, which is inspiring, right?It gives you hope.
Yeah, and, and hope to other people who hear that story who
are in similar situations, what do you know, like the percentage
breakdown of people who are coming in versus like, OK, one

(30:42):
group of people like this is a lot of like domestic sexual
abuse, like within like their family circles and whatnot.
And then this is like the percentage of people that it was
like a commercialized thing because I read it's interesting
statistic. I think it was on your website
saying that less than 1% of all human trafficking victims are
identified and often many victims don't even realize that
they're being trafficked. So like, what's the split of

(31:04):
those people? And then I I have another kind
of follow up question, but it's like why and how do they like
not realize it I guess. I don't know the, I don't know
the split because I think, you know, the stats are hard in this
field because so much goes unreported.
And it's the same, you know, 28 years in, in child advocacy with

(31:26):
child sexual abuse, it's the same.
The stats are really difficult because so much is unknown.
Do they tell you guys, sorry to interrupt, but like when people
come in and they're like, hey, Iwas abused in this way or
whatever? Like, are they required to give
like certain levels of information to like receive like

(31:46):
help in a specific area because commercialized versus this like
they're obviously abuse is abuseand they're really hard.
But they are different in terms of like the level of
brainwashing someone might go through, the level of just yeah.
They're, they are different trafficking versus commercial
sexual, but, but at the same time, there's so much overlap

(32:07):
because a lot of times what you see is that this person's in a
relationship with somebody and they really write to them.
It is their significant other. It is the love of their life,
right? They don't realize that this
person is manipulating, abusing,right, forcing them into because
it's been this gradual thing andpart of a relationship.

(32:28):
And so I think sometimes you seethat overlap and that confusion
and percentage wise, I don't want, I don't know, a number.
Yeah. But I think it's really it's
it's difficult to know. And then I think a lot of folks
that you see, and sometimes you hear this from adults like,

(32:50):
well, you know, it's it's prostitution or it's commercial
sex, you know, it's a choice. And for so many of them, what I
know and what I've talked to a lot of folks here about is that
so many of those kids, adults today were the kids that we saw
at the advocacy 10 years ago, 20years ago.
These were kids or maybe we didn't see them and they never

(33:11):
got treatment or they never got help.
But these were kids who went through early childhood traumas,
who have been grown up in this environment and have continued
in this path. And so we that is one step we
are pretty familiar with. It's upwards of 90% of
trafficking survivors were sexually abused as children.

(33:34):
And so we know that there are a lot of deep unsettled wounds
that that our folks carry. And you know, sometimes the
trafficker, you know, we mentioned sometimes it's a
person that they love and care about in a romantic
relationship, but sometimes it'sfamily members who for, you
know, for generations have been in this lifestyle and consider

(33:57):
that normal and they don't know any different.
And I've heard that on both sides, both traffickers and, and
those being trafficked. So many questions.
What what what is considered sexual trafficking?
Because I I imagine that's a pretty broad term and I am

(34:19):
fairly ignorant in this world, but like what all qualifies as
being like sexually trafficked? For for an adult, sex
trafficking is any force of fraud or coercion related to
sexual abuse of a person. And those are the three

(34:42):
elements, force, fraud and coercion for a, for a child,
those things don't have to exist.
And, and I will say, you know, you're not alone in, in not
knowing. And even as a profession, it
wasn't that long ago when I was interviewing kids, like in the 2

(35:02):
mid 2000's, the term child prostitution was still a term.
People were still looking at kids who were picked up in, in
what they considered prostitution, right?
And, and charging kids because they didn't know what else to do
with them, right? And it was considered a crime
and they were considered right as participating in this.

(35:24):
It, it was years later, right, that we understood and
recognized like these kids weren't out there on their own.
They were being forced into the,so they were being sold into
this right. But we have grown tremendously,
I think, as a community and, and, and the laws that protect
kids and and and adults right from exploitation.

(35:50):
I'm going to say some strong things here and I'm just, I want
to get kind of your reaction. But like this is truly how I
feel. And I feel like I don't know if
others feel this way, but when it comes to like especially
children, the trafficking of kids, there are there's
literally no other thing that I think that I would have the same
motivation to literally try to hunt down and take the life of
somebody who's done these types of things, especially children.

(36:11):
Because when you're talking about, you know, my wife's
pregnant, I'm about to have a little girl.
And like even thinking about some the youngness that is so
young of children get involved in this and taken from their
homes or taken from orphanages or whatever.
And like this is all just continues, continues to be like
a topic that people don't talk about.
I think because we're on it's just so uncomfortable and evil.

(36:32):
But two, it's like, I don't know, maybe that's the only
reason people want to keep theirskeletons in her closet.
But like this seems like for me,the one thing that keeps coming
back up in my life and like, well, what am I even doing in
life if I'm not fighting this one thing?
So I guess kind of my question is like, how do you combat the

(36:53):
sentiment or like the cultural norm of just like wanting to
sweep this kind of stuff under the rug because everybody wants
to go after domestic violence orwhatever.
But like no one wants to talk about the three-year old little
girl who was, you know, before she'd even talk really messed up
sexually or like all this stuff.It's like these are actual
problems and nothing domestic violence isn't.

(37:15):
But it's like, yeah, like how doyou deal with that?
Like how do you is it just education like?
I, I think education is a huge part of prevention and I think
that the more that we talk aboutit, the more it is normalized.
And I, I, it is, you know, I've been doing this for almost 30
years and it is very rare that Italk to someone or talk in front

(37:36):
of a group or speak to, to anyone really that I don't hear
a disclosure of abuse, whether it's personal abuse, someone
close to them and their family, exploitation, or, you know,
child sexual abuse. Like it is so prevalent, but we
don't talk about it. And I think the only way to
change that is for us to get comfortable talking about it,

(37:56):
for us to have platforms like this right where we are, where
we're having the conversation. And, you know, I think to the
survivor's voice is incredibly powerful.
And, you know, we had someone speak recently and worked on an,
an event with the survivor who shared openly shared her story

(38:20):
and in detail about what that experience was like.
And she's, you know, years and years and having recovered from
this and been in therapy and, and it, it's hard and, and I get
it. But the more that we share, the
more people that come forward, the more that this can be
attacked. Like, it all matters, right?

(38:40):
Every kid matters, every survivor matters, every arrest
matters. It all matters.
How do you deal with discretion in this type of industry though?
Because I would imagine if people were coming in and
they're and they're talking about, oh, this is potential
perpetrator or this is a group of people or whatever, are you
guys able to report that immediately?

(39:02):
I feel like you guys need to have like a investigation arm of
your work because it's like they're giving evidence or
potential evidence or like cluesto like how to find out these
different networks and such, youknow?
Yeah. So in in Harris County, in
Houston, we have the Human Trafficking Rescue Alliance, our
organizations and a lot of the nonprofits that that are

(39:25):
operating in Houston work with the arms of law enforcement that
do this. And so the Hatcher is, is the
group in Harris County that overseas us.
So it, you know, it's different when it's a child that's been
abused. It's really easy.
You call the 1800 number, you make the report, right?
And, and no, no abuse, no sexualcontact by a child is legal.

(39:48):
And so that is, it's very black and white with adults, it's a
little bit different, right? Because they, they are the
witnesses, they, it's their story to tell.
They decide if they want to report something or, or not.
So it's a little bit different on on that end, but.
You know, there are so many professionals who are experts in

(40:11):
this field who have, you know, who deal with this every day.
And if somebody does come to them, I, you know, say today is
a very different response than it was, you know, 10 or 15 years
ago because they understand the trauma that survivors have gone
through and they understand the dynamics and that, you know, may
look confusing to someone. If somebody's in this field,

(40:32):
they get it. What percentage?
Let me ask you this question. And you may not know, but I have
a hunch and I I want to make a few assumptions at the same
time, but I want to ask the question first.
Like where does this come from? Why do what it?
Why does sexual abuse exist, do you think?

(40:53):
Well, you know. Why does sexual abuse exist from
a spiritual place? I think it's evil, right?
I don't know how else to describe that.

(41:16):
There's opportunity. You know most sexual abuse
occurs in families. It occurs in homes, right?
It's not what we were raised to think was like the what was it,
Mr. Mcgruff? It's not the guy in the cloak,
in the hat hiding behind a Bush that's going to jump out and
sexually abuse you. That's not what's happening,

(41:37):
right? So what's happening is happening
in homes behind closed doors, people using substances,
alcohol, whatever, right? And I think there's just a level
of of evil that can exist in that space that if we don't talk

(41:58):
about that, if we don't pay attention to, you know,
continues. Yeah, I agree.
I also have some other thoughts like, you know, with, I feel
like especially with children, there's nothing closer to, I
think God on earth than a newborn child.
Like the innocence, the connection, just brand new

(42:21):
innocence, I think is being the huge piece.
So I think there's one part of that like the, I think the devil
gets a sick pleasure off of that.
But even more like bringing it down to earth a little bit more
and like putting the responsibility in some of our
own hands. I also wonder, and I have a
hunch, that a large portion of the uptick in this stuff has to

(42:41):
do with pornography. Oh, sure.
Because as a young man, and I'llsay this just So what the
listeners know, and you can knowas well, obviously, but it's
like when you're very young and you come into contact with that,
it's like for the first time you've had like a small taste of
a sugar and like you get a sugarhigh or whatever.
And then overtime like you become tolerant to that.
And then you have to go more andmore and more and more and more

(43:03):
and the same in any field of, ofpractice or any hobby or any
addiction, whatever, Like you'realways going to keep seeking the
next thing. And because it's so easily
available to where you can have every type, color, shape, size,
whatever exactly you want, especially with like the men in
our culture, that appetite becomes insatiated.
And then it's like, oh, I got totake it off screen.

(43:24):
And then I go and do all of these things or whatever, like
my, you know, sickest fantasies are to people.
So I like, feel like porn has tobe a huge driver of this side of
the world. And I'd be curious to know what
you think about that. It is definitely.
I'm glad, I'm glad you said that.
It is a factor for sure. And I, I would say that, you

(43:47):
know, one of the trends that we began to see as the Internet
became more popular was and, andkids had more access, right,
through iPhones and iPads and, and all those things, is that
the number of child on child abuse increase significantly.
And, and you know, kids for a, for a lot of reasons, right?

(44:07):
Kids have less impulse control again, access, right?
It's brothers and sisters or cousins, right?
And they have access within the home, easier access to someone.
And then again, like you just said about the the addiction and
wanting to play those fantasies out and then having the
opportunity right in front of them to do that.
So we've seen just in the movement a huge, you know, focus

(44:34):
on child, on child abuse, which is, you know, it's really sad.
It impacts adults as well. And I think that exposure, you
know, the Internet does a lot ofgood, but I think in our work,
in our field, what people have access to has definitely
impacted what we see. Yeah, and what's sad, too, it's

(44:56):
like, you know, I said earlier like there's nothing else that
I'd probably hunt down and like,literally kill someone for.
But at the same time, it's like whoever the perpetrator is at
one time was a child, most likely they went through that
same thing. And so, you know, there's, I
feel so torn as an individual, especially as a man.
It's like, well, how do I, how do I talk to this person?

(45:19):
And my goodness, the, the law should be exercised and justice
should be served at the same time.
Like, how do you see that person?
Like, how do you see that individual?
And also let them know like, yeah, like I understand.
Like when you're a kid, you know, you're loved too and you
or you should be loved too. And you are not.
You were like abused in these ways.
It's like, I don't know my head.My head's kind of going in

(45:41):
circles, like trying to think about this industry that you
work in. Yeah, you know, I, I will say
though, I, I think a lot of people believe that that
offenders have gone through the same thing as a child, but I
think that's a myth. I think that we but it yeah, I
think it it you know, what will that happen?
And kids that were sexually abused are less likely, right?

(46:04):
Not more likely to abuse anotherkid like they, they understand,
like there's a level of that, the trauma that's happened to a
child that they're not going to act that out on someone else.
I think what is linked is violence and exposure to
violence, exposure to pornography, not necessarily

(46:24):
their own sexual abuse victimization.
Really. Yeah.
I need to research that because I feel like I've heard like the
exact opposite. Although it's anecdotal, I have
never read any paper on it or whatnot.
I'll have to read some stuff andlink that because that's
fascinating. Yeah.
So maybe I need to have less empathy for people like like,

(46:47):
what do you? There's no reason dude.
I know it's like, I mean, peopleare people, but yeah, it's like,
oh wow, that's crazy. It's not.
It's not as black and white as I'd love it to be.
No, no. And I, and I think especially
when you're talking about familial abuse, like there,
there's no excuse, but you understand, you know, so much of

(47:11):
what we struggle with, I think in the the advocacy movement is
supporting families coming around and supporting the
victims, right? You would think that someone has
gone through this and that if everyone would be behind them
and on their side and supportiveof them.
And I spent a lot of time testifying as an expert witness

(47:33):
on these cases. And I cannot tell you the number
of times that mom was sitting onthe other side of her kids, not
on the kids side, and fully in belief that there was no way
that this person that they lovedand cared for could ever do that
to their child. And I just remember really
struggling, you know, with that,Like, how could a mom not

(47:55):
believe, right? And there are 100 reasons why we
put up these defenses and, and create these narratives that
this really couldn't be right. And then in the blame goes on to
the to the child. And it's really, it's really sad
to see, but the more that peopleknow, the more they understand
what those signs are, what the symptoms are, they begin to

(48:17):
recognize more. The more that we talk about
this, I think the better. Yeah, it's got to be a survival
mechanism because when you're talking about the mom sitting on
the other opposite side, I'll just share a little bit.
Like I came forward when I was 16 about sexual abuse that
happened to me on several times.But then my cousin who was

(48:38):
living at the time with my step grandfather and my biological
grandmother, like they were taking care of him, but it was
the step grandfather who was theperpetrator.
And we only visited every once in a while.
So there were limited opportunities for for me to be
involved and abused. But you know, you said the way
it started was like, what did you say child on child?

(48:59):
Because it was like my younger cousin were the same age and
he's suggesting things and like,you know, you're like 7 years
old or whatever stuff happens. And but then as I got older,
like I became, I had like this growing level of anger toward
not just my, the grandfather whokind of suggested these things
and did other things, but my grandmother because she was, she
seemed like willfully ignorant. And it's like really difficult

(49:20):
because I think that truthfully,there's probably a level of
survival mechanism that is instilled in someone who is
living with a partner who maybe can committing these types of
acts because no one wants to believe that.
I don't think any half hearted person would.
But at the same time it's like, well, how do you hold that
person accountable? Or like, I don't know.
It's like, why? Why does that even exist?
Why not just call a fish a fish?And you know, like it's, yeah,

(49:45):
it makes no sense to me. It's still so blown out of a
level of potential understanding.
Yeah, it and they should be heldaccountable.
Like if they I'll never forget. One of the survivors who shared
her story talked about like, knowing that her mom knew what

(50:06):
was going on when she was being sexually assaulted by her father
in their home. And she said, you know, one
night, like she heard her mom's footsteps come all the way to
her door. And she thought, like finally,
like, this is going to end. This is going to be over, you
know, and, and she said, I'll, I'll never forget that moment

(50:27):
because she froze and her dad froze.
And then she heard her mom turn around.
So there is no way that she didn't hear what was happening
in that room. And she turned around and she
heard her footsteps walking away.
And she knew that her mom would never protect her.
You know today, right? Those are chargeable offenses
right to. To Yeah, we'll.

(50:50):
We'll fully ignore what was happening right in front of her
and it's it's sexual abuse by omission, by failing to to
protect and to do something. How is that little girl?
How does she get trained to trust anyone ever again?
Whole, whole lot of therapy and you know, I think it's a
lifetime process, right, That that, you know, whether it's

(51:14):
this type of trauma or, or any trauma, those things don't go
away, right? You, you continue to wrestle
with them in different ways. I always talk to my kids and I
started, you know, the, my youngest, I think was three
years old and she was one of theones I, I mentioned to you.
Her mom came back years and years, over the years, and she

(51:34):
would check in and she would just say, Hey, I, you know, you
told me that this might come up again when she started dating or
this might come up again when she had her first kiss.
And this might come up and, and of, and these things come up
like overtime. And now she's in her first
serious relationship. And this is somebody I started
in treatment with when she was three years old.

(51:55):
And she's in her 20s now. And, you know, still struggling
with some of those things that just pop up from time to time
and she gets back into therapy and needs a reset and not just
her, right? It affects the whole family.
So yes, she gets treatment, but mom is also, you know, she she's
got to deal with this too because it was in her familial

(52:17):
abuse and things come up for heras well.
It's like a life lifetime. And it's sad, right?
Because you would hope for everykid that this, and you hear this
from parents all the time too. Like they just want their kids
to forget it, right? And so, oh, they're not
struggling right now. I think they've forgotten about

(52:39):
it. Well, no, you're not ever going
to forget about it. Like you learn to deal with it.
You learn to cope with it, you learn to live with it, but it is
still something that is a part of you.
You just learn, right? You, you learn mechanisms to, to
be able to move forward and hopefully in, in healthy ways.

(52:59):
I hope this doesn't come across as inappropriate, but because
you're here and we're having this conversation like my mind
is, I haven't, you know, it's just interesting that we're
having this conversation when weare because on the background of
my life right now, I'm going through quite a few different
things and trying to figure out and understand what what's going
on with my own past. But a conversation that I've
been having with my wife now forthe past, I would say three

(53:19):
months or so that I am now awareof is just like my lack of trust
in our relationship. Now we all as human to human,
even if you know me and you got to know each other more as
friends. Like there would be something
that I would end up doing probably that would show like a
given opportunity for a lack of trust.
So all that to say, my wife and I are very human and we do

(53:40):
things that could make us have alack of trust.
But I'm realizing that the levelof lack of trust that I have in
my wife or other people in general is so directly linked to
kind of what you were talking about with like this girl who's
her mom is literally coming to the door and she like turns her
footsteps away. And I'm, I'm like about to cry
talking about this, but it's like I have had, I have like

(54:00):
visual memory being younger and thinking my dad should have
caught that. Like I tried to almost give him
a sign. And I know that memory at the
same time is also like fuzzy. And it's different for
everybody. And everybody's memory at the
same time will be totally different because their
perspectives are different, their attentions focused on
different things. So there's a level of like chaos
and like, well, what's real, what's not?

(54:22):
But I have this belief still that I have not been able to
figure out or, or place or put name to.
It's like, I still don't trust my mom.
I still don't trust my grandmother now she's passed, so
I guess it really doesn't matteranymore.
But a lot of these people that Idon't trust because I've like,
they should have caught that. They should have heard that,
They should have seen that. And it's like, yeah, I'm

(54:42):
realizing like, I need to go andwork through this stuff because
it's like, that is such a debilitating thing because all
that leads in my life is just tome untrusting everyone else
around me. And like, it's a great
deterioration of relationships whenever there's a lack of
trust. Yeah, I'm sorry that happened to
you, first of all. Like, you know, it's just it's

(55:04):
it's hard, heartbreaking that that it happens to anyone,
right? But I think it goes to show like
how you know, you, you just don't know, right?
One in one in four girls, one insix boys.
And every time you're in a room,like there's someone in that
room who has gone through this experience.
And so when we talk about kind of normalizing the experience a

(55:27):
little bit, I think that this ishelpful.
And I my hope is that the conversation reaches someone who
needs to hear it, who can, you know, take a turn and get the
help they need, work through thethings that they need to
normalize some of this for them.That the trust part, you know,
in relationships, it sounds likeevery major like life experience

(55:53):
that you go through brings up levels of this, like you're
about to have a child and knowing that this impacted you
as a child, you know, this couldhave an impact on on what you're
going through now and and in that relationship.
But I think when it's impacted by by childhood trauma, by
sexual abuse or yeah, I, I, you know, couples therapy is a great

(56:20):
thing. And whether that, you know,
whether it's a faith-based or ornot, I don't, you know, I don't
know where y'all are in, in that, but would highly, highly
encourage that because I think it can destroy relationships
just as easily, right? That lack of trust or that blame
or the shame or any of those feelings, right, that don't get

(56:43):
worked out that then get transferred to your partner
during the fault of their own. And, and I've seen that happen
And, and it's hard because it's not something you're choosing
right to do. It is a just a reaction based on
your experience. Well, it's dealing with the
belief. Like I belief seems to be the at

(57:03):
the center and core of everything in my life and how I
operate and how I observe othersoperate because what the
decisions you make are fundamentally settled upon the
belief in something. Well, if I believe that if I
push down on the gas pedal, thenit will move forward to or if I
believe if I have this hard conversation, then hopefully
it'll lead to a better place andwe'll have worked through some

(57:24):
things. So like that's the thing I'm
dealing with. And honestly, I think there's
probably some conversations I need to have with like family
members of like, but that's the thing too.
It's like if you sit down with those people and have those
conversations, I have to be willing to talk to, we'll just
use, I don't know, an Ant for asa scapegoat.
Hey, I, I have this belief that you knew what was going on and

(57:44):
for years you've told me you didn't.
And then I have to be willing toeither believe what they say
when they were likely are going to say no, I don't, or just like
come to terms with and like havea level of forgiveness and
peace, I guess to like, well, they're, they're not there,
whatever, but everybody wants closure.
Like that's what you're seeking.It's like, how do I close the
loop so I can push this away andkind of deal with it for now?

(58:06):
So I think, yeah. And to reiterate what you're
saying, yeah, I think I'm going to continue to seek counseling.
I've got an appointment this week, although I might be trying
to find a different type. So we'll see.
Everyone's going through it. And yeah, I hope that as people
hear this conversation and can hopefully pick up on just the
obscure, confused nature of someof my questions, like I'm

(58:28):
realizing like, oh, my goodness.Like I'm trying to work through
this as I'm asking questions about it and this is probably
not the best podcast, but you are doing great and I really
appreciate you answering and counseling a little bit and like
sharing. Yeah, you don't have to air this
podcast. No, I'll air it.
You really don't I, you know, just have such a such a heart

(58:54):
for survivors and you know, one thing just in in listening to
you talk about all the the folksaround you.
If I, you know, can share anything and I, I'm not AI don't
give advice. I walk alongside people.
That's just how I practice. And but finding the places
within you internally for those answers and that forgiveness and

(59:18):
not letting go and not like letting go.
Such a big thing. If you can get to that place and
it'd be extra like it's not, it's not dependent on the folks
who are around you who did or didn't right?
And it just is about healing what's here.
None of that other stuff matters.
Their acknowledgement of it, their acceptance, they're none

(59:41):
of that matters. Like it's, it's what's going on
in in here and the parts of you and the parts right that that
are inside of you that need to be healed again, because they,
you know, people will disappointyou and, and really only you
have control over you and not anybody else out outside of you.

(01:00:02):
So maybe that child that you're about to have so.
Yeah, no kidding. No, I appreciate you saying
that. And I, you know, it's
interesting like that the the main perpetrator and my cousin
who were both involved in like these different levels of sexual
abuse, I don't see them hardly ever.
In fact, I haven't seen my step grandfather in many, many, many,

(01:00:22):
many years. So it was almost easier to like
have a conversation with him in my head and kind of put that
thing to bed and to rest. Because really, honestly, I feel
like I've reached a level of forgiveness with him.
But now I'm realizing after thisconversation, like, oh, my
goodness, the the people I have not forgiven are the ones who
are closest to me, who I somehowwant to cast blame.
Or whether they knew or did not know, I'll truly never know.
But that belief that I think they did, like I'm realizing

(01:00:44):
that there's a lot of Harvard resentment there.
So, yeah, there's, there's some stuff I'll have to work through,
which is good. This has been, you know, it's
been a good hour and 2 1/2 threeminutes because I'm figuring
stuff out as we're talking aboutit.
But I do, I will air this because I I think it's good for
people to hear that. Yeah.
I don't know. It's, it can't hurt.

(01:01:05):
I honestly wish that a lot of some of the best conversations
I've ever had have been in, likein counseling or therapy.
And in some of them I wish were recorded that I could share with
people. Maybe I'll start doing that.
Do a podcast. Here's my therapy session.
Yeah, people would listen to that one and I probably didn't
have many friends afterwards, but.
You know what, it just takes like a tremendous, like

(01:01:28):
tremendous amount of courage to share your journey and like, I
felt, you know, I'm Lucas's mom.Like, you know, we don't, we
don't know each other all that well, but I just feel honored
that you shared your story with me and and felt comfortable
enough to, to talk through some things.

(01:01:50):
Yeah. Can I ask you one more question?
Of course. What is something like, what is
something difficult that you're going through right now that
most people don't often see, especially as a leader because
sometimes it can be lonely at the top.
Oh yeah, maybe. There's a few.

(01:02:12):
Something difficult that I am going through I you know the
realization like I knew coming into this work how hard it was
how difficult did did you know trafficking can be is I think
one of the things that I struggle with the most is like

(01:02:34):
the there's so much Co occurrence like of different
things going on. It is not just the trafficking
that our folks are struggling with, right.
It is the it's the homelessness,it's the drug addiction, the
dependency, the loss of family, the kids that have been taken
into CPS custody that like it. There's so much happening to our

(01:02:56):
folks that I'm putting all thosepieces together and like, you
know, I'm a very solution focus and, and thinking about
strategies and ways that we can really impact change and then
realizing like this isn't 1 issue.
This is many, many, many issues,right?

(01:03:16):
And, and so who are the partnersand the relationships and, and
how do we solve for this? Like, how do we, how do we
create a world where this isn't,this isn't the norm, where this
isn't happening to people when it's so big and it, it's so
complicated, right? And and, you know, it's hard to
to tackle just one issue, but when it's layered the way that

(01:03:38):
this is, you know, people who experience homelessness are at
higher risk of trafficking because they don't have a place
and someone promises them a warmbed tonight.
And then the next thing, you know, right, that it just like
that, you know, somebody who gotkicked out of their house takes
a job from someone who, you know, promises them that they're
going to be a model, they're going to do this right And boom,

(01:04:00):
right. Trafficking, it just is so
complex and I just feel like I don't have enough money and, and
time and energy and not like I can't wrap my head around all
the things that need to happen for us to really impact change,
right? And I know that I know it's not
just me. I know that I'm surrounded by

(01:04:22):
organizations who who are passionate about this work and
who are fighting every day to make a difference in the lives
of survivors. And I feel grateful to be a part
of a community like in Houston, TX is huge on, on, you know,
supporting our, our 'cause our governor's office is, is, you

(01:04:42):
know, invested in helping younger people, you know,
survive this and, and thrive. And so I feel fortunate in that
way. But that's, you know, I, I
laugh, but I, I really coming into this work, I don't sleep
anymore. Like I am just every night you
like you, you worry about things.

(01:05:04):
The people who don't have a place to sleep, the people I
know I'm going to drive up tomorrow morning and they're
going to be on the sidewalk and then I'll see them in a few
hours and, you know, just getting some rest or getting
something to eat. And I so want to be a bigger
part of the solution. And I don't completely know what

(01:05:25):
that looks like yet. And so, you know, I'm almost 5
months in into this position and, and still figuring it out.
We're a small team but talented team.
And I I think we do really good work.
And I think the more people thatknow about what the landing
does. I haven't talked to one person
yet who I share our story with who doesn't want to support us

(01:05:50):
in some way, who doesn't want togive or who doesn't want to come
and serve and just be a part of,of the work that we're doing.
I, I believe like gods and writethe details of, of what's
happening every day at our center.
And I see people just in small ways like I, I try to spend part
of my day every day that I'm in the office with the clients

(01:06:12):
that, that come in And, and I amintentional about that because I
want to know the struggles and Iwant us to be intentional about
how we help. And when the ask, the greatest
ask of the day is for a tent because the cold weather's
coming, or for coats because, you know, we don't know if we're
going to have right warmth tomorrow night.
And it just sets, changes your perspective.

(01:06:37):
Right on. On.
So many things. Yeah.
Yeah. Well, first of all, I just have
to affirm and want to affirm, like your ability to listen and
empathize and to be very articulate with very delicate
matters. I think that's really important.
And I appreciate that, especially with the advice and
kind of direction that you've even given me in this call.

(01:06:57):
So thank you so much for this podcast.
Thank you so much. Absolutely.
But you know, you're also you'reexplaining to me, you know, like
you're not sleeping. You have a very heavy heart for
a lot of these different people and initiatives.
And you know, when you're talking about the multi layered
system, being the CEO of something.
So what's the word I'm looking for like monumental potential

(01:07:23):
and need and, and, and that it'sneeded.
You know, you're constantly fit,like pouring yourself out in all
these areas. And we've talked about faith, we
talked a little bit about family, like going home and
having those things. Do you feel like you have enough
to fill your cup for the amount that you are pouring out to make
this sustainable? Yeah, that's a that's a great
question. I think it's, I think it's

(01:07:44):
seasonal like right now because it's new and there's so much
right to learn in this. You know, people talk about the.
Yeah, exactly. I know that that will it will
get better in that way, I will have more space and more time
and I will be able to disconnectmore and and those things that
are needed and necessary. I have a great support system, I

(01:08:06):
have an incredible board, a goodteam and, you know, great
family. And so I feel like I have the,
the, the structure around me to,to support me through this.
And I do believe it will get easier, right, as the more that
I learned, the the, you know, yeah, it'll get easier.

(01:08:27):
This is just the season. I've got it.
You know, I feel like I just have to.
Yeah. Yeah.
Well, I would love to have you on again in the future of next
year at some point when maybe you're another five months in or
a close to a year and and just hear about what's been going on
because I think it's super amazing.
I want people to be able to support you guys in any way that
they can. But if there's anybody out there

(01:08:48):
who does want to, where would they like look to support you
guys and what you're doing? Yeah, that's good.
thelanding.org. Visit our website.
If you're in our area, we'd lovefor you to come take a tour.
Serve give online is the best way to reach us tomorrow is
actually giving Tuesday so if you you know felt moved by this

(01:09:11):
opportunity to hear what we do and want to support survivors of
trafficking please look us up we'll.
Do awesome. Well, Lisa, thank you so much
for taking the time and let me ask questions and kind of bounce
around a little bit, share some of my own story and go back and
forth. I really appreciate your time.
Thank you, Seth. Enjoy meeting you.

(01:09:33):
Thank you so much to Lisa for coming on the pod.
I really appreciated the opportunity getting to speak
with her. And yeah, it was a great
conversation. Like I said, the beginning, my
brain was just like a little fuzzy today.
I think I've got a little extra dose of stress going on with
some of the end of the year stuff.
And yeah, I don't know if I needto say these kind of things on
camera or not, but I'm saying them because it's kind of what

(01:09:55):
I'm thinking. But I feel like I didn't do a
super good job of asking questions, but at least it did
an amazing job of being very articulate in the way that we
talked. So really appreciate her taking
the time. Appreciate you guys being here
and thank you for listening. Again, check out the landing.org
if you want to help support thatorganization and the show notes
as well if you ever want to figure out how you might be able

(01:10:15):
to support the podcast. All right, thank you guys so
much. Have a wonderful day and we'll
catch you in the next one. Peace.