Episode #147 - Mark Matthews, Co-Host of Pro Tri News

In this episode of Stupid Questions, Seth sits down with Mark Matthews — military veteran, husband to pro triathlete Kat Matthews, and a key voice behind Pro Tri News. They dive deep into Mark’s journey from army life to podcasting, navigating identity beyond titles, what makes a good partner, and how stepping back to support someone else can still be a bold step forward. The conversation also ventures into faith, fame, purpose, and the role of alcohol in social life — all delivered with Mark’s trademark honesty and dry wit.

Happiness study: https://shorturl.at/Crf8p
Mark’s IG: https://www.instagram.com/markmatt29/ 

PTN IG: https://www.instagram.com/protrinews/

Z2: https://z2alwayschasing.com/

Z2 Code: STUPIDQUESTIONS

SQ Newsletter: https://stupidquestions.show/pages/contact

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
How's it going everybody? Welcome back to another edition
of the Stupid Questions podcast today.
Very special guest from the pro try news world, Mr. Mark
Matthews. For those who don't know, other
than the pro try news, which is probably very hard to happen, he
is the husband of Kat Matthews and super supporter over there.
Awesome guy, spent 12 years in the military.
I did or has done quite a few different cool things in his

(00:24):
life. So thank you so much for jumping
in and I want you guys to reallyenjoy this conversation with me
and Mark Matthews. What do you guys use Protrados
to record? You just use like Zoom or.
No, we use stream yard. Stream yard.
Nice. My internet's been really shit
recently. I think that's why my camera's
being a bit dodgy. The audio came across fine on

(00:46):
the podcast, but yeah, it's my it's.
Definitely much. Yeah.
OK, well, no worries. If it messes up, we can always
edit stuff or whatever or like cut it and and bring it back.
But luckily it records everything locally.
So it's usually pretty good about putting it all together at
the end. But so.
Well, Mark, thank you so much for taking the time to jump on

(01:07):
my humble and lowly podcast. It was my butt.
Couple of my buddies sent me. I can think guess it was like
two or three episodes ago on ProTrainers where you mentioned
that you were going to be on thepodcast.
So thanks for the subtle mention.
That was pretty cool. You're very welcome.
Yeah, yeah. I, I don't think it's lowly at
all. I think I, it's quite good.
I quite enjoy it. I'm not listening to all of

(01:28):
them. I'm actually not really a big
podcast listener. I don't feed one or two.
But no, I think it's all good. And also, it's nice to support
other podcasts in this sort of industry, isn't it?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure not 100%.
Yeah, it's been, it's been a funjourney and really thankful to
all you guys. My next one that I'm going to
try to get on obviously is Talbot to have the whole rounded

(01:48):
crew on. But yeah, you guys have been
super kind to me, so thank you so much.
Well, Talbot, Talbot was absolutely on one on our podcast
on Sunday when we recorded, so Ihope he's levelled out a little
bit before he comes on yours because he he was just firing
shots. Really.
Yeah, he's he. He Talbot's either very quiet
or, or he just. He just has days where he's just

(02:11):
on it. It's always funny.
But he was on it, yeah. Yeah, it's high energy.
Yeah. Good deal, sweet man.
Well, there's no real structure to this podcast other than the
goal to just get to know you. So the first question that I
would love to open up with is from your perspective, who is

(02:31):
Mark? Tape.
He is a husband, a retired Army officer, a pub enthusiast,
though currently on a sabbatical.
He is a Englishman. You know, I don't, I don't think
I have anything in particular that I identify myself as.

(02:55):
You know, like I think some people associate their identity
to their work or their father orwhatever.
Yeah, I'm a 30, almost 38. I must be English guy, did 12
years in the Army. I've always been involved in
sport. I married someone far more
talented than me. I don't do a podcast where we

(03:18):
spouse off fairly unsubstantiated opinions.
That would be, I mean, ironically, that's probably
where most people know me from now, but it doesn't feel like
the work and effort that's gone into that versus anything else
I've done in my life, you know, that that doesn't quite tie in
equally. Yeah, when before the pro try
news gambit, What did people know you for, you think?

(03:44):
The reels on cats Instagram probably, but like before, we're
talking like micro social media influencer on the most micro
scale possible. Yeah, people knew me as being
social. I think I know I always, I've
always known a lot of people, maybe quite superficially, but

(04:06):
I've always, I've always, I've always sought out social
situations. So I, I guess, I guess people
knew me as being social if I hadto have something that kind of
was a tagline. Yeah.
Do you think you're more of a people pleaser or like a
peacemaker or a mover and shaker?

(04:27):
I don't think they're equal because people pleaser is.
I think we should all aspire to be a people pleaser in general,
but I think the phrase is actually sort of quite
subservient. It's like you're a walkover and
mover and shaker makes me think of just a real dickhead.
Like a real kind of self important because anyone

(04:50):
describes themselves as that. I, I don't mind upsetting
people, but I, I would, I would I go out of my way to try and
help people. So I actually think I'd probably
lean towards a people pleaser more than the other end of the
spectrum, which maybe that's a wishful perception of myself and
I'm not sure others would agree,but I think we should try and

(05:12):
please people I don't know. Unless they give you a reason
not to, why wouldn't we? Yeah, yeah, that's a good point.
I've never heard it. I've never heard it tackled at
that angle. So I appreciate that.
Yeah, I think we should all be to a certain degree of people
pleaser because I think in beingkind that typically pleases
people. But if not, then they're

(05:33):
probably not worth the effort totrying to be kind or to go out
of your way to help them. So then.
Yeah, absolutely. And a phrase I really hate is,
you know, you have to earn respect.
Why? Like, why?
I, I think we should all respecteach other until you've proven
your otherwise, you know, like what, what sort of world is it

(05:55):
where you respect no one unless they've earned it?
I find. That disrespect.
And I think that's that you can then kind of have that one, you
know, you could do the same withkindness as well, I guess.
Yeah. So how do you how does your
personality and flair compare and contrast to Cat?

(06:17):
I'm much more decisive, like I'll just come up with something
and that's what I'm going to do or that's what we're going to
do. Whereas she's much more
thoughtful and the process is much slower.
Often hers would end up in AI think there's a, there's a
really cliche army phrase, whichis like 90% solution delivered
on time is better than 100% solution late.

(06:38):
Like her solution will be good, but I'm quite rapid in how I
make decisions. I, I let stuff go, she lingers
on stuff that she'll, she's quite thoughtful and takes
things to heart, whereas I, I just move on quite quickly.
I think she's she's probably quicker to anger than I am, but
I think the boiling point, my boiling point is much higher,

(06:59):
whereas she can flick above and below the line and she's more
driven than I am quite clearly. Yeah, interesting.
So going to the Army for a second, you said you were, is it
12 years or 16 years? How long were you in the Army?
12 just short 12. 12 years. So that's a, that's a hefty
chunk. I mean, I guess 1/3 of your life

(07:21):
at this point are about what kind of lessons did that
experience teach you about yourself?
I think it taught me some false lessons, like there were so many
times I should have come a cropper and not in like the
dramatic sense, you know, not like Band of Brothers, a

(07:43):
cropper. I just mean like normal work
scenarios. I always came out OK, If if
anything, I sort of came out smelling of roses.
And I think it gave me this false lesson that everything
will be all right. And to be honest with you, so
far it is. But there's no real rhyme or
reason for that. So it taught me that.
It taught me that you can, you can stay awake, work a lot

(08:05):
harder, a lot longer than you think you can, because I don't
think there are many other scenarios or workplaces in life
that you you block so much focusand work without any time off.
It taught me that. It taught me the value of it
taught me that people have strengths at everyone and that

(08:28):
so many great people are completely underrated because of
their social circumstances. They grew up in, where they came
from. Their education was like what
they look like. You know, the army of the
British Army is made-up of a bunch of Snooty officers that
sound like myself and then a bunch of working class people,
often from poor broken families and stuff.

(08:50):
And there is the talent divide does not fall along that line in
the slightest. And that's an important lesson I
learn. So Speaking of like the
background and where you came from, what is your background?
Where are you from? So I sound a lot posh than I am
because I grew up in Cambridge, which is a beautiful city about

(09:13):
45 miles north of London, famousfor its university.
My dad was a teacher, my mom wasa nurse.
So I'm firmly sort of middle class.
But if you don't know the regional accents, I sound a lot
posh than that. And I had a great childhood.
My dad was a professional rugby coach as well, so I was always
sport. It was always a big thing in our

(09:33):
family. So I had, I haven't yet
actually. My parents are still happily
together now they're coming out to Hamburg to watch the race and
I have, you know, that one brother who is, who looks quite
similar to me, but it's very different.
He's a bit smarter and a bit more mellow.
Yeah, All right. Is it just you and your brother?
Two siblings? Yeah, yeah, about a year and a

(09:55):
half apart. He, he's a great bloke really.
He's he's, he's a bit quieter, but again, he's very social.
He's very, he's, he's more unanimously well liked than I
am. I can be a bit Marmite, whereas
I don't know anyone that doesn'tlike him.
He's a he's just a really good man.
That's the way I'd describe it. Yeah, so for growing up in

(10:17):
Cambridge and your dad, I guess,being professor, professor, a
rugby coach, what was your mom doing?
She was a nurse, she was my I, I've actually, I've always been
really proud of my mom. She grew up in like a quite
relatively poor area of East London and then she worked in
shops and stuff and she got her nursing qualification and she

(10:39):
worked in basically the same hospital that moved site for
about 45 years. Got to like the highest band of
you know, management nursing youpossibly can.
It was incredibly well respectedand always found time for like
the social life and things like that.
She was very good at what she did, but nothing fancy.
She just did it because, I don'tknow, she always, she's always

(11:00):
helped people, I guess. Yeah, yeah, for sure.
So I can definitely see some of the overlapping character traits
and values that you're just fromthe little bit you shared about
your mom and your dad and what you take up.
But from your perspective, do you think that you're more like
your mom or more like your dad? Definitely my mom, my dad's I,

(11:20):
my dad's quite so he's very social, in fact hugely popular.
I think I'm I'm a bit more hot headed and brushed than he is.
And that's, I suppose that comesfrom my mom.
She's also a redhead, which probably explains that.
Yeah, there is. There seems to be some actual
scientific evidence that sits behind the fact that redheads
typically do have a little bit more of a a temper.

(11:41):
I don't know where the boiling point sets for most of those
people, but do you, do you do believe in that?
Yeah, but I, I would, I would argue that that's nurture rather
than nature. You know, like there are how
many protected characteristics are there like 7 or something?
Your religion, your race, your marital status, your that kind

(12:01):
of thing. But ginger isn't 1 all right?
And if you're in the army, you can bully the fuck out of a
ginger person. But I was genetically Born This
Way, and at school you can just bully the fuck out of a ginger
person. It's even quite inappropriate
now to bully the fat kid. But you can't.
You can't discriminate against someone for their religion.

(12:22):
But they chose that. That was a conscious choice.
Whether they were nurtured into it, they can choose to change.
Being fat, same thing, I was Born This Way and we get bullied
as fuck as kids so I reckon the fieriness is nurture rather than
nature. And because you just learn to
and I I don't, I don't actually care.
It doesn't bother me now, but it's just a point I like to

(12:42):
make. But it used to bother you.
Actually not really. I me and my brother both grew
really quickly. I was 6 foot 2 when I was.
I don't think I've grown since Iwas 13.
And I didn't, you know, it wasn't, I didn't.
Yeah. I I guess it, it, it bullied me

(13:03):
when it came from people that itbothered me when it came from
people that just had no right tothink they had the right to say
it. But amongst friends and stuff,
we've always, I've always enjoyed it, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's interesting.
What do you think it is? Because I'm just curious about
this because so I was short or Iam short.
I'm 5 foot 5 1/2 inches. In high school, I was, I doubt I

(13:28):
broke 5 inches. I had hit my growth spurt pretty
late and even into college like when I was 2021.
So I experienced a little bit oflike the being picked on and
whatnot. And ultimately, I think coming
on the other side of it, like similar to you, it made me a
better person. And I think that I, I enjoyed
some of that. I think it's helped build me to

(13:48):
who I am. But what is it about the ginger
thing that you think people wantwant to pick on?
It's just that old because it's a minority.
It's like any minority. Yeah.
And, and it's getting less and less and less.
It's being bred out, basically. We are dying off.
I, I, I honestly just think it'sa minority.
You know, like anything, once you're a bit different, it's

(14:10):
just the kids are horrible and the army has been a thing
forever. I think in England it's like the
Scots were ginger and like, I don't know.
But I, I, I I think it's just a minority and that the problem.
I mean, there's no problem with it.
Like, I don't know, do ginger women have it worst?
Probably not, No. Yeah, nice.

(14:32):
Ginger women are really attractive.
They seem to there's no, there'sno middle ground.
I don't know if you've never noticed that ginger women are
either really unattractive. Beautiful or incredibly,
incredibly. Hot.
There's no, There's no middle ground.
That's the theory and it's. Not yeah, I'm sure there's a
Venn diagram. There may be a few people that.
Yeah, I I kind of know it made me a better person.

(14:55):
I don't, I don't think, I don't think any bout of bullying makes
anyone. It's like saying you'll come
back stronger when you've had aninjury.
We probably won't, but it's justquite a nice phrase to cling on
to. Like we we like to kid ourselves
that bad experiences make us better.
They probably don't Like would would you not just rather a
blissful upbringing where you look exactly how you want.

(15:17):
You had all the, you know, like I, I don't know, I think it's
just, it's like a blanket we putaround ourselves to try and make
bad things seem better. I don't know, I I would push
back against that. I mean, so in certain
situations, yeah, like if you break your pelvis in half, if
you want to be really physical with it, I don't think you're
coming back from that and being the same human being that you

(15:37):
were before. But going through like tough
situations, for example, I don'tknow what kind of boot camp
situation you went through with.The reason they send you through
that, I would imagine, is for strength and conditioning, but
to basically increase your level, your tolerance level of
stress so that you can come to that situation in the future and
move forward better. True, but then that's like that

(15:58):
should be like a controlled environment of hardship where
there is someone looking out foryour welfare and understanding
the level. Whereas for us to really
experience and feel something bad happened, there was no one
setting that boundary with thought in place.
So like, there are things like abit of adversity can make you

(16:22):
better in certain areas, but that's because you're changing
who you are to, to follow the path that that's, that's LED you
to. But I, I, I, it's not about them
fast. Of course, some people go
through something bad and it does actually improve their life
in some way. Yeah, yeah, no, yeah, for sure.
Yeah, it is. It isn't hard and fast.
I think it's really hard. The older I get, the more I

(16:44):
realize that it's so hard to pinpoint just a North and South
or black and white situation. Everything seems to be so
incredibly Gray because I've looked at, you know, how I was
brought up and there was a fair amount of hardship and me and my
sister turned out relatively OK or me and my sisters.
But then other people who I've seen where they really did have

(17:04):
like an amazing opportunity, a blustful upbringing, great
parents, went to good schools. And then they kind of choose
like a really crazy rotten path where it just kind of they turn
into a degenerate, honestly. So it's like, it's really hard
to pinpoint, you know, where is the nature and nurture line able
to actually tip the scales? Yeah, and, and actually, like

(17:26):
something that triggers someone into following a path might do
absolutely nothing for someone else.
And yeah, there's so many, there's so many elements that's
gone into that point that made one person follow one path and
one follow the other. The nature nature debate will
rage on forever, right? Yeah, it will.
So for you going growing up, like obviously you did the Army

(17:48):
for a while, I'm I'm assuming that was probably pretty close
to after your secondary education or like high school I
finished. College.
So I went, I went through university and then I joined the
Army pretty much straight after that.
OK, why'd you why did you decideto join?
I'd always flittered with the idea and then honestly I and

(18:11):
then I, I'd done a bit of support and stuff, truffle and
things like that, but then I, itwas basically like a now or
never. Like I kind of always said I
wanted to do it and then your best to do it when you were
younger. And I've always figured I could
just give it a whirl and do something else.
I honestly don't know what I joined.

(18:31):
I didn't really want to go and work in an office and do a
normal job and I didn't, I can'tcome up with anything else I
actually wanted to do, but I knew I did quite want to try
this, so why not do it? And I was never really money.
I was never really bothered by money.
So that makes it a much easier decision.
If you're really bothered by money, don't join the military.

(18:51):
Yeah, Well, I mean, you, you went on for 12 years, I'm
assuming that there's like contracted dates.
Yeah. So you did it from multiple
years. I.
Got through like I, you have like a minimum service return or
something like a year and then three years.
And once I went through that, I got put on basically a permanent
contract where I can just keep going until I'm retirement age.

(19:13):
And they, they, they ditched those out based on sort of
ability or reporting or reviews.And if you, if you get one, you,
you know, they obviously want tokeep you.
And then I could just leave after, after.
I think actually after four years, I could have left
whenever I wanted with a year's notice.
And I only left to support cat full time.
I wouldn't have left otherwise. Oh really?

(19:35):
You would have been a career long army individual.
It's the only thing I've ever actually been any good at.
Really. Yeah.
I think like, yeah, I think so. It's just really easy.
Yeah, I think that has carried on.
That was, well, I, I'd always said I would leave when I

(19:55):
stopped being good at that, whenI stopped enjoying it and when
it didn't work for the lifestylethat I wanted to lead.
And the problem was that I wanted to support cats a lot.
So I would have had to take easier jobs in the Army, and
those easier jobs would have taken me off the flight path to
being considered really good at it.
So that was like this hit one ofthe three boxes that I'd always

(20:17):
said I'll leave when one of those isn't working.
So I left. Yeah.
What were you doing? Like what?
What was the your specific skillset that you felt like?
Oh, this is what I'm good at andI'm able to continue to excel
and grow in this. I, I think I'm good at dealing
with situations where the crocodile's really close to the

(20:39):
boat and I'm bad at situations where if someone gave me like a
long term project I would be really tragically bad at it.
But I'm good at things like solving problems and issues like
that and I think I'm good at relating to people.
So when people work for you, which is obviously quite
important in the Army, I could relate to them quite easily and

(21:00):
I think I was relatively approachable.
I don't know, I think lots of people have all these skill
sets. It's just the one thing that I
quite enjoyed. Yeah.
What was your job though? Like were you?
So you maybe you kind of made jobs every two years in the
Army. So when I left I was a company
commander for a unit of 200 odd soldiers and trucks and stuff

(21:22):
like that based in the place called Colchester, which is our
airborne Garrison. That's what I did.
Oh cool. Yeah, it was nothing country,
nothing super dangerous most of the time.
Yeah, just. Good.
Army work. Oh yeah, true.
Sort of. Are we?
Have we? Ever.
Really. Yeah.

(21:42):
If you ever if the world ever shifted on on its head and there
was a call for arms to for people to come back, you think
you still get. Back.
Well, I am liable. You can reserve.
Subscripted, yeah. The once you leave, there's a
period of time after it. It's even, I think it's like 10
years where if we mobilized and they didn't have sign up, I

(22:05):
could be recalled. But that would have to be us
actually going to Ukraine right now.
It would have to be something massive.
Yeah, yeah. So I'm also curious to know.
So I, I almost joined the Marineseveral times just because for
me, I really wanted to find a sense of purpose.
I wanted to do something hard that I felt like not many other

(22:26):
people could do. You know, this whole self
searching of, you know, who am I, what do I want to do type of
a thing. But one thing that I do know is
from those types of experiences,it brings together a just a
large swath of people from different cultures, backgrounds,
world views, religions, you know, I mean, every shape and
color. For you, how did that affect the

(22:49):
way that your lens for the worldadapted, especially as you came
out after 12 years? Because obviously you met a lot
of different type of people. Did it change the way that you
kind of processed the world? I don't think I ever lived a
very sheltered, like quite privileged, but I had friends of
different faiths, different ethnicities.

(23:10):
I worked, you know, I went to university with them.
Did it change me in that respectat all?
Like the way I view people? I, I think it, it, it made me
appreciate competency more as a character, as a generic
character trait than sort of anything else.

(23:35):
If it wasn't like a friendship, it made me appreciate competency
over anything else. Everything else is irrelevant in
the military. If you're competent, it does
nothing else matters. And I think it made me realize
that that is actually all we should look for in pretty much
anything you do if competency inwhatever skills that you're
looking for, you know, like if you're going to get your your

(23:58):
driveway paved, the only, the only thing that matters is the
guy's competent to do the job well.
Is he a Polish guy that works onhis own in a van?
Or is he a big British firm withloads of backing and money
behind them? Well, if they both do the job
really well, then you fall back to price and things like that.
Like competency I think is the thing I took away as being the

(24:20):
most important factor in a person.
That's interesting. I've learned that a little bit
more, yeah, especially as I've gotten involved just in
leadership and small businesses and stuff because people who I
thought, oh, they might be really good at this.
And then you get to know them and you're like, oh man, they,
you had, they have to be kind ofhandheld through every situation
or to sit down and kind of critically think through some of

(24:41):
the small things that you think,like what this should be so easy
to kind of figure out if you take 5 minutes to think about
it. So yeah, maybe maybe that's how
maybe that'll shift the way thatI hire and fire people in the
future it. Should be like, it should be the
only way, right? Like as long as you're not rash
about it and they make one mistake and you get rid of them.
But I don't care if someone's got so load of bravado or their,

(25:03):
you know, their philosophical beliefs in line directly with
mine. If we're trying to achieve a
task together, I would much rather someone that disagreed
with me on the principles of politics, but was really good at
what we were trying to do together and someone that wants
to we wanted to talk about. We agree with the same politics,
but he was shit at what he's doing.

(25:23):
You want the guy that's good at what they're doing.
Everything else is just noise. As long as they're not, you
know, a degenerate pervert and causing they're doing crime on
the side or you know what I mean, but they're a little.
Bit for sure, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
You got to be a decent human being.
You don't have to have all the same views and share all of the
yeah, you can have commonalitiesand being competent and being a
decent person. So you said that you were taking

(25:46):
a sabbatical away from the pub here of recently.
Few questions around that. First question, why?
I was probably dependent, not the pub.
I'll go to the pub and drink. No, no, I won't do that because
there's a guy that I. So we moved here a couple of
years ago and I went to the local pub and met friends there.
And we have lots of friends in the village.

(26:07):
And we go every Wednesday, there's a group of us and then
we'll go to The Times. And it's not about the drinking
necessarily, It's about the social interaction for some of
those guys. Yeah.
Well, for some of them, they have no one else.
You know, they are widowed widowers.
They are, you know, like they just live on their own.
So it's the social interaction. And one of them almost died when

(26:28):
we got hit from essentially acute liver failure, massive
alcoholic, like, horrendous. He was definitely going to die.
And somehow he pulled through and he comes to the pub and
drinks Diet Coke now having beena hardcore alcoholic for 20
years. And I don't know how he has the
willpower to do that. So I won't now not go because
I'm taking a break off drinking because if he can do it, I

(26:49):
should definitely be able to do that.
But the reason I've I've, I've just taken a little break is
like a check. How hard is it?
I don't want to stop drinking altogether for the rest of my
life. I like a beer, but I just want
to check. Is it a problem?
How long has your sabbatical been?
Oh, like a week like you basically, Yeah.

(27:12):
When we got back from Texas. So I'm.
Yeah. I mean, I rode pretty well
today, surprisingly. So could have something to do
with that? Yeah, I'm sure it probably does.
What do you like after a week? Have you had moments where
you're like, oh, I want to go dothis?
Or when you go hanging out with friends?
Has it been difficult? Oh no, no, no, no.

(27:34):
Like I won't change anything I do socially, I'm not interested
in that. But I mean like when you go, is
it hard to like not want to go and get the drink?
Not yet, no. And actually I don't ever really
have a problem out and about. It's more, it's more like
boredom and, and last night, yeah, I was, I was definitely, I
definitely was like I could really, really, really do with a

(27:55):
bit, which is a good sign that it's probably the right thing to
take a bit of a break. If it's a, if it's hard not to
do it, you definitely probably have some sort of dependency,
right? Yeah, for sure.
What led you to, was it the point of your friend that was
dying from the liver issue that,oh, my God, planted that seed?
Yeah. So what what caused this

(28:17):
sabbatical? Now what?
What made you like be like? Maybe I should figure this out,
see if there is a problem. I think I got a bit pissed up on
our live podcast. I was, I'd had too many and that
gave me like the, we'll call it the beer fear.
The next day I was like, oh, what did I say?
Like that was a bit far. Like, you know, I was 9 pints
deep or something. I was like, oh God, what did I
say? Then I started to count, maybe

(28:38):
more to be honest. And then I started to count like
when was the last day I hadn't drank?
And I'm not talking like a bottle of vodka, I mean 2 beers.
Just something and it. Was it was weeks, I was like,
it's not great. So that I think it was actually
just the bear fair really the debate.

(29:00):
So if I may continue to pry on this subject a little bit
further, because it's fascinating to me, What is it
about alcohol that calls to you or like, what does it give you
that you feel like is the the the good trade off?
Because you go to it obviously not just for the taste, I would
imagine. What is it that it brings you?
And like, yeah. It's a social lubricate.

(29:25):
Makes it easier. But just it makes it easier for
everyone. Everyone's enjoyment of being
together goes up. I would say.
I think people like I've, I've been to dinner with six people
where no one's had a drink all evening and I've been together
with six people who've had a bottle of wine each.
I know which was more fun. That's the problem.

(29:47):
That's why it exists in society for forever.
I mean, it's why it's the only legalized vice still pretty much
as people cancel out everything else.
It would be so unpalatable if ifyou actually want, if government
actually wanted to take care of the health of its population,
cannabis would be legal, alcoholwould be illegal.
But that's just not going to happen, right?

(30:10):
For good, like for reason. And I like the taste.
It is a taste thing for me as well for sure.
But you probably love the taste because you associate it with
the buzz, etcetera, etcetera. Sure, sure, sure.
Do you think that you could train a group of people to come
to a social situation with the same level of just like guard
down, stress gone that you wouldhave if you had a bottle of wine

(30:33):
around? Yeah, but training people to do
that sounds hard work when you could just have a bottle of
wine. It's a lot easier, you just have
the key there. Yeah, I don't, I'm, I have no
judgement for those that don't drink and I'm not, I'm not
saying that alcohol is, is, is necessary to have a good time.
Certainly not. I think it's like any life

(30:55):
choice, you know, can you train someone to be moralistically
good without giving them a list of laws or like, I don't know,
there's, there's lots of examples of things that people
are dependent on in life for happiness that they can they can
achieve the same without it. You know, I would say the same
for religion. Like you can be a decent hard
working, honest good to your neighbor kind person without

(31:17):
religion. Yeah, but some choose religion
or not, I guess. And I don't know why I'm, I
don't know why I've pushed that one, but yeah, I think so.
I think you. Probably can I think.
People are equally as happy, butI've also, they're probably not
the sort of people I enjoy hanging out with.
Yeah, sound. They're probably having a vegan
dinner as well. And I'm I'm just not that

(31:38):
interested. Mark, what if I told you I was
vegan? Good for you.
As long as your five mates aren't, and as long as I'm not
being socially trained into enjoying that dinner, we're all
good. That's funny what I want to ask
a couple of different questions.Well, thanks for letting me dive
in on this. I've only drank once or twice in

(31:59):
my life. So that's why I was just curious
some of your experiences there and the way you think.
But you made-up a or you broughtan interesting point to the
table that, you know, some people find religion as it
really can become a vice becauseyou said like there's a law, a
set of laws and precepts that people find comfort in.
And like, as long as they do that, then they feel like, oh, I
can sleep good at night, which is I think the wrong way to go

(32:22):
because I've met people who are literally live in the mountains
and jungles of Papua, Indonesia,have rarely met the modern world
as we know it today. And their concepts and precepts
about kindness. And just like, just from farming
and working in a small community, Yeah, I think is far
more valuable than any level of religion could potentially offer

(32:42):
them aside from, like, you know,if you do believe in some kind
of a relationship with a higher crater.
But that leads me to the question is like, what are you?
What do you think about religionthen?
Are you religious? Did you grow up in a religious
household? No, I have religious
grandparents and religious auntsand uncles, but my parents

(33:04):
aren't religious and I'm an atheist.
Oh, you're atheist? Always have you always been?
Yeah, yeah, always. Yeah.
Can you can you tell me what that means to you?
I guess it means I actively don't believe there's a higher

(33:27):
power rather than being agnostic, but I'm kind of
indifferent to the argument. I just don't potentially follow
one. I actively don't believe there
is. And I, I guess I would, I would
narrow it down to like I, I, I actively don't believe there is
a higher power that is any particular religion, especially

(33:50):
that notion to me is seems crazythat someone's got the right
one. But 1500, yeah, people religions
got the wrong 1. So no, yeah, that's that's me.
Yeah, for that just, I mean, lack of, I don't know how you'd
say, I guess it's not really a belief system, but it is.
It's a frame of mind that you find yourself in.

(34:12):
Do you think that it's more difficult to be atheist or
agnostic? I think it's more different,
difficult to say you're an atheist because you, you
naturally offend an awful lot ofpeople because you're basically
saying I believe that what you believe is nonsense.

(34:33):
Whereas an agnostic person is saying, I don't really know, you
know, like that. That's my understanding of the
two terms. I've never, I, I say the term
atheist because people understand what it means.
I, I just guess I don't really put enough time into bracketing
myself exactly because it's kindof irrelevant to me the exact
definition of what, what, what Iam.

(34:54):
But yeah, I think it's harder tobe an atheist than it is to be
agnostic, but only because you are verbalizing and committing
to your your lack of belief. Yeah, is cat on the same page?
I won't speak for Kat on it. Yeah, we'll have to have a.
Place to yeah. Yeah, yeah.

(35:17):
Fair enough. It's not.
Yeah, it's not. We don't align on lots and lots
of things, but I don't think married couples should.
Yeah, you think that they shouldbe less aligned than more
aligned if you were to like put it on a scale, but should be.
Aligned on the important things in life and what you both want
and what you know. Wanting each other to be happy
but agreeing on everything in life is.

(35:39):
Again, it sounds tragically boring.
Yeah, boring. Thank you.
Boring. Yeah, it is boring.
Yeah, having having the colors of different belief systems act
and yeah, the way the things that you want for sure.
Me and my wife are very passionate.
We're both first born. So I totally understand the the
contrast there. But I want to shift gears a
little bit because you mentioned, you know, you several

(36:02):
times in our conversation, you said I wanted to really support
Cat and you wanted to do that and that's why you left the
army. So I guess first question, was
it at all difficult to leave thearmy because you knew you were
going to be leaving something that you are quote UN quote
competent or good at to go in and support her?
And what eventually led to that straw that broke the camel's

(36:25):
back to say like, yeah, like, I'm going to go and 100% put my
wind behind her sails. It wasn't difficult to leave
because I'd like, I think I saidearlier, once I make a decision,
I make a really quick decision and just just totally convince
myself that it's absolutely the right thing and we'll just go
and do it. So that was relatively easy.

(36:45):
The thing that broke the camel'sback, the idea that I was really
enjoying going to a racist and supporting her, but at the same
time it was sometimes difficult and that I missed things.
And then I think she won some race and I was like, I'm
leaving. Like I think I was, let's be

(37:05):
honest, it also has to be financially viable.
And it got to the point where itwas very financially viable.
So that is, that's like a, that's almost like a threshold.
You know, we crossed that threshold.
It would be financially viable for me to leave.
And then it's so is the benefit.And I think we were living up
here and I was commuting or maybe I've already planned to

(37:27):
leave. She's cats just walked in and
shaking their head no, we weren't living here when I
decided to leave. I honestly I haven't got a good
answer. When exactly or was it hard?
No, it wasn't hard. Do I miss it?
Yes, I miss elements massively. I think if I was working in a
city job in London, I decided toleave the army.

(37:47):
I'd be fucking miserable. But as it is, I travel in the
world with my wife and we do some sport when I do a podcast.
Let's not pretend I've got a hard straw headshot.
Yeah, yeah, you don't live the worst life ever.
She's texting me now for some reason.
Oh it was the IT was the after party.
At sub 8 was when I first floated the idea that I was

(38:10):
going to leave. Oh yeah, I remember that.
That's correct. Yeah, that's correct.
I was like, I'll sort it, I'm out, this is too much fun.
And then it like I didn't sign off for a few months and then a
year wrote went by. Yeah, I.
Just find it out. You pushed it off.
Yeah. I it's funny you're interested
in that. I think that's the first time I
actually ever heard really like of cat was the sub 7 sub hour or

(38:30):
sub eight projects that were going on.
Yeah, that's crazy. How much how long ago that's
been now. What is that?
Three years? Four years.
Well, it was Saint George was the world champs then.
So was that 22 that's. Been 2021 or 22?
Yeah. OK.
Two. Yeah.
Well, yeah. Three years ago.
Wow. Do you?
Yeah, it does fly by. So obviously Cats career won't

(38:53):
last forever. I mean, it's just part of the
the the sport. It it goes to a point where it
ends, you know, there's still a couple lifetimes to be lived.
So you'll have the opportunity, it sounds like, to probably go
and do something else again. Do you think you'll return to
the Army or do you think that you want to kind of keep your
main focus in the sport? I'll never get back because
you're kind of on a, you're kindof on a flight path if you're

(39:15):
doing well and once you come offof it for a period of time,
you're going on a flat path. So I would then be going
essentially back in to do a middle management office job.
And if I'm going to go and do a middle management office job, I
would like to get paid well for it because it's boring either
way. So you may as well get paid.
So no, I won't rejoin the army. The ideal scenario is cat wins
maybe 3 or 4 World Championships, picks up loads of

(39:38):
cash and we never have to work again.
But she knows very much that theagreement we have is that when
she retires from sport, I am theone that needs to be earning
enough to keep us in the lifestyle that we are
accustomed. To yeah, yeah.
Be become the breadwinner. Yeah, that's interesting.
So from the perspective of you being like a husband and the

(40:00):
support required to remind her you know who she is because I,
you know, in the ups and downs, the things that she's been
through just from a sport perspective alone.
It can take a toll and weigh, and I think anyone who's in that
position can start to question their own value or where their
value comes from. So from your perspective as a

(40:20):
husband who is a supporter in everything that she does, are
there times or how do you go about helping to support her
through those tough times, I guess is what I'm asking, when
she starts to waver on you. Some doubt best than I ever have
with the phrase. Remind her who she is.
I think that's a really good phrase.

(40:41):
It's like cat is a doom's day when something is going wrong is
going to Yeah, it's just should get very briefly into the idea
that everything is really bad and I am inherently over
positive. Like I'm inherently like I'll
always see the the brightest there this it'll be fine.
And I think because I'm also quite blase.

(41:01):
So I think I just try and level out with and I help plan and
remind that it's OK that things aren't good and remind that it
doesn't matter if you don't do this race.
Like you can do something else. Like it's not just to, I guess
grounding in a way. I'm trying not to come up with
quickie answers because she can hear me.

(41:23):
She's in the next room. Try not to come up with quickie
answers like, oh, just an emotional punch bag because it's
not true. I think it's just, I don't think
you said that. I think people can struggle with
their own self worth or what their own value is when they're
supporting someone else. And I have never felt that
because she doesn't let me thinkthat.

(41:45):
Like I know she reminds me of the value and we're both very
happy at what we do. I also definitely get like some
sycophantic feedback, don't I, from people that will come up to
love the podcast. They know who you are.
Like I'm not the anonymous husband in the background, which
would be the harder role, probably the more admirable
role. You know, like there are there

(42:07):
are other people out there supporting full time who fly
much more under the radar. They then I guess some of them
get their kick or they're self satisfied.
Like for instance, Philip Seat was only coaching Laura when she
won nice last year. He's only just picked up Daniel
Backyard again. I think he went through two
years pretty much of just coaching her, supporting her and

(42:28):
people didn't know who he was really.
Like you do if you're German andyou do if you're really into the
school. But what's he getting out of it?
Way less than I was way less like, you know, acknowledgement
of races and stuff like that. Someone asked him to take a
photo of me with them at Texas. He was their supporting Daniel
Backyard and we just joked aboutit.

(42:51):
I was like, they're not interested, Philip, because he
just doesn't care. Because you don't need all that.
You don't need something else inlife to make your worth feel,
you know, make your life feel worthwhile.
If you know that you're, if you get enough satisfaction out of
seeing someone you care about orwhatever do well and be happy,
then I don't think you need it. Like to think of all the selfish

(43:13):
jobs out there. Think of all the like, like
people working in homeless shelters.
Then you know, the nuns in New York working at homeless
shelters and stuff like that. Like what do they get out of it?
But they do it every day and they're perfectly happy.
Yeah. And I'm definitely comparing
myself to that, by the way, justto be very clear.
Like I was trying to come up with a much.
Better a nun in New York than. Yeah, yeah.

(43:36):
A much better example higher level is just to be clear.
Yeah, now it's interesting with the with the level of, I don't
know, our sports not to to such a degree that like people are
crazy famous, but we do have people who are famous and known
outside of the sport. And obviously pro Chinese is
growing and you know, whatever as the sport continues to grow,

(43:57):
people will experience this at different levels.
But I always find it interestingbecause some people really do
want to be quote UN quote famous.
And then when they become quote UN quote famous, they're kind of
kicking themselves in the foot because they realize like, oh,
this isn't what I thought it was.
Like there's the short term gratification of, well, people
know my name, but they know you for one very specific thing.
And so it's like, if you're not careful and your identity

(44:17):
becomes attached to that, the 99% of who you are that sits
behind whatever that singular thing is kind of gets
unrecognized. And that can be hard for certain
people. But I think the most like
successful powerhouses, healthy individuals are those who don't
have that recognition really. Or if they do, like they just

(44:38):
don't care. Like they don't read the
comments and stuff like that because they're pretty self
satisfied in in knowing you knowwho they are and why they are
who they are, which I think's. A.
It's a hard lesson. Alice Romney has no interest in
being famous at all. Yeah, he's probably the most
famous to athlete partly becauseof that video of him carrying

(45:00):
his unconscious brother across the line.
Well, that transcended the sport, you know, that's been
viewed hundreds, millions of times.
It was bought and it was useful efforts and stuff like that.
Plus he won two gold medals, plus, you know, became a
household name here. He has zero interest in being
famous, almost disdains it because his satisfaction came
from following pursuit and excellence and stuff.
And that led him to, you know, be the greatest short course

(45:22):
athlete ever. So yeah, I think there's I think
there's plenty of successful people that have no interest in,
I don't think, you know what arethere any triathletes that do it
to be famous because he picked the wrong sport?
Play golf, you know, like drive the Formula One car, play
soccer. You know, if you want to be
famous, this isn't the sport forit.

(45:43):
I think it's full of people thatthat want to win races and push
themselves and have drive and stuff like that.
Yeah, as you have gained notoriety just through pro trend
news, obviously, you know, your relationship with Cat, I guess
helps elevate that maybe even a little bit further.
What has that been like for you?Like do you have you gotten to
the point where you dislike or like when people come up to you?

(46:04):
Oh, Mark, I listen to you. I love this, love that, you
know, people kind of blow and wind up your skirt.
We've definitely got, we're definitely talking about like
notoriety on a very small scale here.
But I guess more so than some other people involved in the
sport. I have stopped reading comments
and stuff. I've got bored of it.
I don't care. I don't go on slow twitch.
I've become much more comfortable with the haters.

(46:24):
Most of the time. They're right, by the way.
Like I've said, I say some stuffI don't.
I've said a lot of stuff that's like, I don't expect everyone to
agree with and like, and I've kind of become really
comfortable with the notion thatthat's OK.
And if you disagree with me, your, your point is no less
valid. So I've stopped reading all the
the Haiti stuff. I don't doesn't bother me

(46:44):
anymore. It used to.
And then the stuff people say nice things is it makes you feel
great. Of course it does.
Like, let's not pretend that it doesn't, I think.
It's an affirmation. Very few, yeah, yeah, very few
people don't like, you know, I've, I've really enjoy it for a
different level. I do really enjoy that.
People get satisfaction out of listening to something you

(47:05):
produce and they enjoy it. And we don't do it for money.
Oh, I didn't, we certainly didn't start doing it for
notoriety or fame because it's atriathlon podcast.
Like you don't get that, which Ithink we all did because we like
chatting to each other about nonsense triathlon and, and we
also like that people enjoy it. So I, I, yeah, of course I like
it, of course. And I've met some really great

(47:26):
people and people say really funny stuff to you.
And like when I raised talent I last year I couldn't hide
anywhere on the course when I was dying of death and being run
down in the marathon because I was just getting shouted and
cheered along by randoms the whole day.
And it was lovely. Yeah.
Do you, have you ever had any haters come out in the real

(47:46):
world, like directly to your face?
I feel like those people. Hey, yeah, everyone's couched
that. Absolute pussies.
Yeah. No, no, no, no.
Absolutely. Keyboard warriors, yeah.
Of course they are. And you get some real savage
keyboard warriors. There's a whole triathlon
coaching company in the UK that called me and Cat out and stuff
and friends about that and stuff.

(48:08):
They've kind of targeted our little group and they come out
with some horrendous stuff. They're really trying to throw
your brand, like Cat's brand under the name, like under the
table and all this sort of stuff.
You see them in the real world and they weren't, they weren't
bad either. They weren't.
They wouldn't say food. To the kids.
Yeah. No, honestly, that that.
Yeah, yeah, whatever. Yeah, it's it takes it takes

(48:31):
real courage to if you have a, a, a just a differing opinion
even to go to someone like, I don't know, I I feel like if
yeah, I think if people did thatsomeone's.
Listened to this. If someone's listened to this
and they'd really disagree with something I've said, do just
come and have that conversation because you're probably wrong.
Lots of times I've had messages and I've changed my mind and

(48:52):
stuff or I've agreed I was, you know, I was in the wrong.
But yeah, I'd love someone to actually do it.
But then would I do it? Probably not.
Would you? Because we just like to avoid I,
I but what I don't really do is keyboard warriors.
I was wondering if I've ever really said something bad
specifically about a person on the podcast.

(49:13):
I don't think so. It's more like, you know, said
there was shit at this or whatever.
It's never a person. Yeah, I guess actually, yeah, I
called the head referee out fromIronman pretty heavily.
And then I did have a conversation with him in person
about it. It was, it was great and we, I
learned something. But I, I don't think I would
seek out somebody. But I've bashed online because

(49:35):
you shouldn't need that time, right?
Yeah, yeah. So tell me a little bit about
your personal journey with triathlon then like you from a
point of view racing, what's what's that like?
How's that going? I don't race anymore.
I used to race a lot as a kid. I got into traffic already young
and then I did it till I was like 21 or something and then I

(49:56):
joined the army and I did it a little bit in the army.
Then I did loads of cross country skiing, stop trap from
for a few years. Then I got back into it.
I met cat through trap from the army.
I was never very serious. I never really like how to coach
or did anything particularly structured.
I just always did it and then I have raced on and off over the
extent of mining cats relationship.

(50:17):
The last time we raced head to So that's not something I need
to prove and. Then I don't know, She's getting
better and better, so. Which is why we'll have the race
pulled ahead ever again. Like, let's not, let's not.
Pretend nowadays it's not a fairfight.
I just got battled on the bike throughout Yeah, I might.
No, I, I enjoy it and I try to race 1A year because it it makes

(50:40):
me a better person when I'm actually training for something.
But, but I, I put it off for a long, long time.
I'm very, very good at getting pretty fit in like 8 weeks.
What I'm bad at is any discipline structure because
it's a protection method as well, right?
If you, if you don't really commit to something early, you
can always fall back on. I only did 8 weeks training.

(51:03):
Whereas if you really put your neck out and the problem as well
is because I do, like we said, there's a lot of people that
know who I am. If I really put my neck out
there and then failed, I'm probably not prepared to do
that. Because you're afraid?
Because of what? You're a coward.
Yeah, probably. But also I, I am just, I lack a

(51:23):
bit of discipline in general. I just don't.
I kind of, I, I like triathlon to be fun.
It's not it's not my only sourceof enjoyment.
Yeah. Yeah.
Well, you said it makes you a better person.
What? What makes you a better person
about training, even if it's foreight weeks, aside from
obviously physical? Yeah, OK.
Yeah, like routine, like not notgoing out as much.

(51:46):
Like probably. I probably am actually a little
bit happier when I'm training. But that's just because I sort
of firmly believe that sport is the best cure for depression,
let alone daily happiness, right?
It can. It can cure people from really
dark holes, so if you're alreadyquite happy, the only thing it's

(52:06):
going to do is make you a littlebit happier.
You just get massive endorphin drops.
You feel good about yourself. That's why people do sport, I
believe. Yeah, for sure.
Usually with endurance sport, itseems like the most people are
running from something when theyfirst start some of these crazy
long, like Iron Man's or 100 mile race or whatever it is.

(52:27):
Usually there's something that they're running from.
And then if you stick with it long enough, you start to
realize like, oh, like I don't need to be running from this.
I'm running to something now. And it becomes another layer of
like added discipline and physical fitness and mental
acuity, I think. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, and that's probably true in general.
I I didn't really start out likethat.

(52:48):
I was racing short stuff as a kid for the fun and the
competition. And then you just naturally go
longer. I didn't, I don't think I was
running from anything to triathlon.
I, I, I really enjoy it. I think it's it's a complex,
long thought, that sport that takes a lot of thought as well
as effort. Speaking of a lot of thought,
what is taking up the most mental bandwidth for you right

(53:10):
now? You think?
What is taking up the most mental bandwidth for me right
now? Probably the facts I can't come
up with. Something shows I need to find
something to take up more mentalbandwidth.
It's time to get uncomfortable. Cat just said Talbot.
Politics. Yeah, I mean.

(53:31):
Tell me about it. Oh no, no, no.
Now we, we don't. But we not a bad way.
We, we had this group where me, Carl and Talbot would talk
everyday about politics and theywould tell me what they were
thinking and I would then argue with them and I would do a good,
a good hour and a half, two hours a day debating with them
about it. And I learned a lot because it's

(53:54):
quite hard to argue with someonethat lives on ChatGPT because
they, you know, they, they come up with very fast structured
answers. And he's, he's often.
On. Some things, but yeah, I got
into, I got into American politics in quite a big way for
no particular reason. I get into niches.
I find stuff that I end up just reading endlessly about.
I read a lot in general and thenI, I put a lot of thought into

(54:18):
like small things like cats techand equipment or what the what
the pay, what the race is going to look like here and end up
reading every athletes like how well they swam in previous races
and all that sort of shit. So I put, I put a
disproportionate amount of time into that as well.
But yeah, nothing. Nothing really dominates my

(54:38):
mental bandwidth. Either I don't have a lot of
them. Or I don't do anything very
complicated. It's one of those.
That could be it. Well, since it seems like Cat's
in the room, I'm going to ask you a question and kind of in
front of her. Then that should be fun.
That's OK. But I want to ask you, why did

(54:59):
you marry Cat? Oh, I did it for the money, the
easy life. I wanted to leave the army.
I saw her as a golden goose and we got married within two years
of being together. I think life was just.
Pretty quick. Simple, happy, easy to get

(55:20):
along. We enjoyed the same things.
There was no we don't argue. We had the same goals.
And I was just happier and a better person.
I was less. I was less like explosive and
sponge like in a bad way. I liked myself more.
And yeah. When you're around her.

(55:41):
It, it just was obvious. It was like, I don't know how
people answer that question. Like they always come up with
like a cheesy example. And I actually think you just
kind of know that you don't really want anything to change.
So come out. Yeah.
How long have you been married? That's.
Not. That's not bad.

(56:02):
Six years. Six years.
Yes. She gave you the nod of
approval. When's your anniversary?
That's the real question. 2nd ofNovember.
OK. So it's coming up on seven,
Yeah. Coming up on seven, yeah.
So yeah, 2nd of November, we hada winter wedding just for COVID

(56:23):
as well, if you think about that.
Because then, yeah, on January, the world shut down in 2020.
Yeah. Well, our first couple of years
of marriage were absolute blessed because we lived in a
big Army house that was kind of chilled in the countryside.
We got put into lockdown, we both went out cycling and
running every day and just spentloads of time together and I
know that ruined some relationships but we loved it.

(56:45):
Be honest, we absolutely. That's beautiful, yeah.
Yeah, we, I, I, I would do it again if it didn't stop
triathlon and earning and the sport and racing.
Oh I'd love and have a lock down.
Yeah, yeah, it's not too bad. We, my wife and I, we ended up
moving in with her parents, which in some cases that could
be really bad, but we live with them for the better half of 4

(57:05):
1/2 months, better part of 4 1/2months.
And it was so cool because we all lived in this little valley
and the mountains of Tennessee where it's just gorgeously
beautiful. It's springtime, it's on a big
farm. There's you can go outside, walk
around butt naked. No one is going to see you.
It's just like an amazing. I really do miss that time
because all of her cousins except for the mother-in-law,

(57:27):
you know, I wasn't going to say it.
Sometimes she listens to this podcast.
I love my. Mother a lot, but we are very
similar. Yeah, it was great.
It really was great. And and of course, for some
people it was horrible, right? They had young children living
in a small house in an inner city, like complete different
experiences. So I'm not, I'm not, I'm not
portraying Lockdown was good in general, but we enjoyed it.

(57:47):
Yeah, yeah. Or just a few more questions
because I'm sure you perhaps have to go here soon.
But first of those questions, what is the most important
thing? Or Yeah, what is the most
important thing that you've everdone in your life?

(58:10):
Outside of like cheesy army answers.
If you believe it, then you believe it.
Yeah, it would be military related probably, but then I'm
not going to go into those just because it's just, it's just a
story that for the sake of stories, I think the the most

(58:31):
important decision or the the thing I'm most grateful for, for
like the spontaneous decision tojust go and do was after the cat
got hit by the car in Texas, I just phoned my boss.
I was like, I'm just flying to America immediately.
I'll be back when I'm back. And luckily I worked for a great
guy and he was like, cool, just let us know see what you're

(58:53):
back. And this isn't really an answer,
like it's not actually an important thing, but it's, it
was like a just decision I instantly made Like I'm
obviously I'm just just flying to America right now and work
career, whatever. Like if I, if there's a problem
because I was maybe getting on some exercise, that's maybe
doing something with work and it's going to cause a problem.

(59:14):
But I just just literally just jumped in the car, drove to the
airport, got the next time throughout.
And in hindsight, it was a very good decision.
So yeah, not really the answer not doesn't really answer your
question for that. That's that's what you get.
No, totally. Hold on, hold on you.
I've noticed this a few times when I've asked you a question
and it's been a relatively deep question.

(59:35):
You'll give an answer, but then you'll kind of apologize for it.
I just got to say that's got to be probably the most important
decision you've ever made because you don't know if she
would have lived. I mean, you don't know what
could have happened. So yeah, 100% that would be the
most decision thing. I think it's a great WI.
Fi on the plane was down. That was real bullshit.
Oh my word on. The plane and there was just no

(59:55):
Wi-Fi and then like. And you're like just waiting for
messages. To come in.
Yeah, turns out it's fine. She's she's milking it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, man.
So let me ask you this kind of final question or two more
questions, by the way. Where are the stupid questions?
Because this is like, this is a deep and meaningful podcast.

(01:00:16):
There's not been one stupid. Question, I thought you listened
to this podcast. I know, what episode have you
listened to mods? You've you've got the the boys,
both the lads from the the boys,the podcast.
Come out. Yeah, yeah, go.
On then my with another deep hard time for question to solve.
Yeah, Yeah. OK, I will.
Well, here's the first one. It's not what gets you in the

(01:00:39):
zone, like what when you get into for better use of a word, I
guess I could say something other than flow state.
But what gets you in the zone like to make you feel like, OK,
like I'm in a, I'm in in track, I'm being productive.
I feel like I'm in a really goodheadspace.
I could do anything. Oh yeah, that's good.

(01:01:00):
Gets me in the zone. I, I think a problem early on.
I think if I set about doing something and something goes a
bit wrong, I am then way more inthe zone and effective because
I'm almost annoyed and I like tosolve a problem or overcome
something quite quickly. I don't get in the zone if it's

(01:01:22):
just easy, I'm floating along and it's all fine.
I'm much I'm much more in the zone when there has been some
some sort of, you know, problem at the start and hardcore 1995
till 2008 American hip hop as well.
OK, who's your favorite hip hop artist in that time period?

(01:01:47):
Dre 2001 is the greatest album ever made.
So Doctor Dre ever for the win. But M&M as well.
All that sort of stuff. Yeah, my, but my playlists go
from like Dire Straits to Moz death.
Like I'm, I'm quite eclectic. Yeah.
So then, what is your definitionof success and how has it

(01:02:09):
changed since you were a youngerlad?
I think when I was younger therewas this idea that you you get a
job or you achieve A promotion or you make a certain amount of
money and you succeed. Whereas actually being happy
whilst expending the minimal time away from being happy is

(01:02:33):
success in my eyes. I don't care if I made
£2,000,000 a year but I was commuting 3 hours a day.
That's pointless to me because there's more money than I need
to live the lifestyle that makesme happy and I have less time on
my hands. So I think, I think achieving a
state where you are happy and what you have with through
investing the least amount of time possible and things you

(01:02:55):
don't want to do I work or whatever it might be.
Yeah, deal with 100%. I wouldn't.
Spend time on people you don't like, whatever that might be,
cutting as much of that stuff out and just spending time on
the the good stuff. Yeah, no, I'd have to agree.
I think that older I've gotten. So I'm 32, I'll be 33 in

(01:03:16):
September and a lot of my friends, you know, I I went, I
graduated from college. It seems like it was just
yesterday, but it was, you know,going on 8 years ago.
And a lot of my friends who I would have pinpointed to say
like, Oh yeah, they'd be really successful.
A lot of them went on to go be monetarily successful, but a lot
of them like don't control theirtime.
So, you know, CEOs of these hospitals or whatever.
And it's, it's a really tough battle because a lot of them,

(01:03:37):
they'll get into these situations where they're in some
residency to become a fast tracked CEO or CFO.
And then they get in that position.
Then it's like that job owns them.
They literally live to work. They don't work to live.
And yeah, I would much rather similar to you, make much less
money, but have control of my time and be able to dictate how
I spend those moments of time tobring true happiness.

(01:04:01):
Yeah. I'm.
Totally with you. I, I do think that's a changing
trend in the world as well. I think more and more, but you
have to obviously you have to get to a certain level of
comfort right because there is no one's happy whilst they are
trying to put food on their families table and they're
struggling. To do that or.
You know, like there is a certain level of comfort.
So I'm not saying money isn't vitally important, but I've lots

(01:04:24):
of my friends do extremely well and they, they, they're working
themselves into the the ground for it and I, I don't really
understand. Yeah, Yeah, there's a really
interesting study. I'll have to link it in the show
notes that came out probably close to 15 years ago now.
But it made the argument after surveying, I forget how many
thousands and thousands of people, but that after about

(01:04:45):
$79,000 a year in earnings, yourhappiness quotient really
doesn't go up. And it kind of goes along with
what you're saying. As long as you can pay for the
food, as long as you can, you know, afford to take a vacation
here and there. The fulfillment really comes at
the end of the day from who who the people you're spending with
and do you enjoy the work that you do.
But other than that, money is MOmoney.

(01:05:06):
MO problems to quote the 90s hiphop era.
Very true. And yeah, I mean, there's a few
outliers that are just power hungry sycophants who more money
makes them happier because they need more money, more power,
more status to be happy. But I think if you're relatively
grounded, I agree with you. I don't know that's true.

(01:05:27):
Yeah, final question, this is a existential A deeper 1 and it
yeah. So you're atheist.
So my question is, when you die,what is the best case scenario
in your mind that you would liketo happened or believe could
happen? That anyone still alive that I

(01:05:49):
care about is comfortable and happier and my presence up until
then enabled that in some way, shape or form.
But other than that, nothing. You know, I don't want to leave
the world in this and I don't want to die and leave problems

(01:06:11):
for people that I cared about. But other than that, I don't
believe there is anything after this wonderful, beautiful,
colourful life. And I don't doesn't make me
enjoy it any less. Probably makes me enjoy it a
little bit more. A.
Little bit more. I know I said that was my last
question, but I have a follow upquestion and then I'll let you
go. Is there anything that could

(01:06:32):
happen, any experience you couldhave that would make you
question your current status of non belief?
Yeah, like a creator comes down to earth, stands in front of us,
shows us that there is a higher being by performing endless

(01:06:55):
miracles, publicly recorded scene in person.
I would of course change my mindbecause evidence would have
provided me with an answer. But without any evidence, any
bad luck or good luck is just that.
In life any occurrence is is always explainable or is is just

(01:07:15):
a phenomenon to me of a natural environment that is deeply
complex. But so, yeah, I would change my
mind, yeah, but there would haveto be some sort of prick for it.
So let me ask you this question.I'm just really enjoying this by
the way, so. Go on.
I'm, I'm, I'm guessing you're religious.
I'm guessing you're a Christian.How did you know No.
Because you're from you. You live in a branch in

(01:07:37):
Tennessee. I live in the Bible.
Yeah, I live in California now, so I'm a complete heathen, but I
I grew up in the South of Tennessee, well, in North
Carolina, So yes, I am. I went through the whole thing
of, you know. Like, and of course, like when I
said my family, like my, I have 3 aunts and uncles that are
vicars and my granddad was a Bishop and like I'm, I'm and

(01:07:59):
Talbot and Kyle are, you know, obviously deeply Christian and
stuff like that. I have no actual problem with,
you know, individuals that are religious, obviously, yeah.
Yeah. And like, well, ask me the
question. Yeah, Yeah.
So the question is if that happens, there's there's then
that would bring that would bring not only the belief

(01:08:19):
forward that like there is a good side, but there is a bad or
malevolent side or a devil or something to that degree.
If that happens, how would you know if whatever you're seeing
is from one side or the other? Why just oh, I mean the the
problem there is that you're from a belief system where there
is a good side and a bad side and you are one of 10,000

(01:08:41):
religions that have existed in history and you believe 9999
Know those are wrong, but you're1's right.
I just believe all 10,000. I actually don't.
Believe that, to quote Ricky, juries though, OK, because they
come in different forms and different tellings or whatever
it might be, I don't know. I mean, the presence of one
wouldn't indicate to me the presence of the other.
I would also have some serious questions for the, the if the

(01:09:04):
good, the, let's call it the good side come down, I would
challenge. They're not good, so I I would
not trust anything they have to say because if they had all
power all this time, I think they've got an awful lot to
answer for. Yeah, for sure.
So I don't, to me, I don't know,I don't have, I don't have a
particularly good answer for that because I don't believe the

(01:09:24):
presence. That's probably not a very good
question. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, no.
No, I don't just yeah, I don't. I think that's, that's comes
from a framing that there is a good side and a bad side and I
because the bad side excuses thefailings of the good side,
right? But if if the good side's all
powerful, why? Why is there an excuse?
Just get rid of it. Yeah, I hear what you're saying.

(01:09:52):
Yeah. I, I, I I just think it's so
hypothetical to me. Yeah.
Yeah, Yeah, no, it is hypothetical.
Yeah. It it would take a lot of
conversation to come around to the point to like to even try to
begin to explain something like that.
But at the short, I think that, you know, that what I believe is
that it's it all comes down to the comes down to the
vindication of a character. So the good character is being

(01:10:14):
it was brought into question that, oh, it's got as good as he
says he is. And so, like this whole thing
has to play out to see what evilcould become in its fullest
growth. But yeah.
And you probably already know a lot of this stuff because you
grew up in, you know, with people living in that world
view. I've read.
Yeah, Yeah. Various of the books I think
there's a nice there's a convenient factor that the proof

(01:10:38):
of the existence is only bestowed upon people that are
dead and can no longer communicate it, IE heaven.
The proof of the sacrifice and the prayer and the worship comes
at the end when you can't come back and say fuck.
It's great by the way, you should definitely stick with it.
Yeah, it's interesting. Yeah.

(01:10:59):
Most people do believe that. Like, there's you like this
whole concept of like you die and you immediately go to heaven
or heaven or hell. Don't believe that because then
I think that. Yeah, that totally falls apart.
I actually don't even think the Bible says that, but that can be
another topic for another day. We'll leave all of my.
We can do the severely uneducated Christopher, like

(01:11:19):
Dawkins versus someone debate and we can just bring it down to
a really base level where I haveway less understanding than
those and you can tear me apart one day.
No, it's all good. Yeah, for sure.
Well, Mark, thank you, man for taking the time to jump on here
and share just all the differentavenues.
I was a little jumpy around in the beginning, but really found

(01:11:39):
a interesting vein with your story and really appreciated the
opportunity to ask those questions and you answering them
in the vulnerable way that you did.
So I really appreciate. It so much I'd interview you
with stupid questions one day because it's a very much A1
sided. You drop a little tidbits about
yourself, but you need to be on the receiving end of some some
exploratory questioning I think.Yeah, well, I'll call you up if

(01:12:00):
you want to Mark, if you want tointerview me someday, but I
really do. I judge the Yeah, I, I judge the
success of each episode honestly, by when I, I'm editing
it, I'll see the colour of my voice and then the colour of the
guest voice. And if there's, if mine
overtakes theirs by more than, you know, me speaking more than
30%, it's usually not good. People usually want to hear

(01:12:21):
about the guest, not me. So that's kind of how I judge
it, but. That's a yeah on a guest show.
I suppose that's probably true. Yeah.
Well, thanks for having me on. I really appreciate it.
And I do enjoy it. And podcasts and I support are
great and lots of people enjoy listening, so well done.
Honestly, keep it up. Well, tell Tablet I'm going to
continue to blow up his e-mail inbox until he tells me yes or
no. All right, thanks, man.

(01:12:48):
Thank you so much to Mark for coming to the podcast and
letting me dive into his life insuch an intimate way.
Really cool to hear about just the belief systems other people
have when they don't see eye to eye.
I find it much more interesting and diverse to have
conversations with people of differing opinions, religions,
backgrounds, political ideologies, because it makes

(01:13:09):
life more interesting. And it really shows that whoever
is on the other side of the table has a lot of different
life experiences. And those are ones that I think
should be counted as valuable because they are different than
our own. And what is life with that
little flavor? So to jump on out of this one,
just want to leave you with a little bit of what Mark was
saying. And you know, when I asked him

(01:13:31):
the question of, you know, what is the best case scenario for
you when you go on from this world when you die?
And he said that he basically left the world in a better place
and was able to have the people who he surrounded himself with
be of a different caliber and level of happiness.
So really cool to hear Mike Mark's question for that.

(01:13:53):
If you made it to this point, the podcast though, I just want
to say thank you so much for being here.
Really appreciate it. Check out the show notes for
that study that I was mentioning.
Check it for the Zone 2 stuff and any other sponsor content in
there. If you wouldn't mind leaving a
like comment, subscribe on the YouTube platform and ringing
that notification bell continuesto help grow the podcast in that

(01:14:14):
way. If you are on Apple podcast or
Spotify, if you could like a review there as well, that would
be really awesome. All right, thank you guys so
much for being here. Really appreciate it and we'll
catch you in the next one piece.