Episode #150 - Michael Dhulst, Co-Founder & CEO of SuperTri - Stupid Questions with Seth Hill

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
How's it going everybody? Welcome back to another edition
of the Stupid Questions podcast.In the pod, we're going to be
talking with Michael Delst. He is the founder and CEO of
Supertry. If you haven't heard of them,
you're probably living under a rock, so go check it out.
Really awesome short course format of racing where you will
find a lot of the short course, short course athletes from
around the world, from Olympiansto just really amazing all

(00:24):
around athletes. So go check them out.
Really awesome conversation today with Michael getting to
talk about the founding story, obviously, but a lot of the
background also of Michael from growing up with two parents that
are lawyers and a number of other things that shaped and
shifted the way that he was to find himself where he is today.
Really awesome man, family man has three kids, beautiful wife

(00:44):
and all those things. So I hope you really enjoy this
conversation with Michael Dust. Late afternoon here, so based
out of London, so it's, yeah, it's been a good day.
Busy day rushing different things.
Yeah. What were what was the biggest
things on your plate today? Well, we have we're doing a lot,

(01:07):
a lot of interviews with with kind of like Bloomberg Financial
Times etcetera about, about someof the fundraising that, that
we're doing. So that, that quarter kind of my
morning and then in the in the afternoon, we have every kind of
first Thursday of the month. We do our internal kind of keep

(01:28):
KPI review of everything where we are at with with the
different events and etcetera. So yeah, big day, yeah.
Yeah, that's awesome. I'm just curious, before we kind
of get off and rolling with the KPI stuff, what is the for you?
Like the number one or #2 KPI that you typically look at to
figure like, OK, we're, we're onthe track that we should be.

(01:49):
Well, there's different, there'sdifferent things, right?
We're, we're, we're looking at, at, yeah, maybe we're looking at
a performance of our, of our digital channels, right.
That's, that's one component. Let's say we're looking at CRM
and database is, is another big component.
Then ultimately it's about OK, sponsorship and sponsorship
pipelines etcetera, right. So and then the, the other big

(02:12):
one is, is participation, right?And how they and how we're
trending with participation on the, on the different events.
And then, and then there's a, the, the last part is just kind
of measuring in terms of PR how,how much kind of share of voice
and and then how we are performing in the different
markets, how much breakthrough we get.

(02:33):
That's kind of the the core elements of what we track.
Yeah, neat, neat, neat. Thanks for sharing that.
Cool man. So here's how what I would love
to do. First thing is I'm going to ask
some questions to kind of get toknow a bit about who you are,
just your background, more interpersonal, introspective
stuff. So if they come off as hard to
answer, take as much time as youneed.

(02:53):
And then I'm sure we'll talk about super Try, Super League,
the Genesis and and just all thedifferent things you've done.
But the first question that I would love to dive into is, from
your perspective, who is Michael?
Who is Michael? I think Michael is at the is an

(03:13):
entrepreneur, self driven entrepreneur.
I, I, I would think and I think yeah, with and, and yeah, as I
am also an endurance athlete, I think grit is also a word that
comes up relatively high. And I think grit is, is
something that an entrepreneur and and and and an endurance
athlete have in common. Yeah.

(03:35):
So kind of comes, comes, comes well across both.
Yeah, for sure. So where are you from?
Are you originally from London? No, I'm originally from Belgium,
Yeah, so I'm originally from Belgium, Yeah, but haven't lived
in Belgium since 99. So yeah, quite a few years.
Spent about 20 years in in Asia,right, 19, yeah, 19 and then

(04:01):
moved, moved to London in in 2019.
And in Asia, I've been in China,Thailand, Taiwan and Singapore.
Those the the Asian Pacific division where you were at, Was
that all for Volkswagen? No, just just China was
Volkswagen. Then afterwards it was more like

(04:21):
my my journey as yeah, in triathlon.
I mean, I started an event in inTaiwan called Challenge Taiwan,
which which is, which still well, which still runs then
quite successfully. Then I did a bit of work in
Thailand and then ultimately I started super, super try and,
and yeah, to be started out of Singapore, but yeah, continued

(04:43):
then in London. So that's kind of in a nutshell,
the geographical journey. Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Interesting. So for you growing up, did you
have siblings? Yeah, one brother and one
sister, but both younger. Both younger.
So you are the oldest of three. I'm similar.
Yeah. Tell me.
Tell me how? That brother and sister too, or?
Two younger sisters, so 1 is about two, what, 3-4 years

(05:08):
younger than me and the other one's 12 years younger than me.
So there's quite the spread there, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. We are all a bit closer, closer
together. But a brother who's a a year and
a half younger and a sister who is about four.
But yeah, OK. OK.
Did you? Did you grow up in an
entrepreneurial household? Both of my parents were lawyers,

(05:28):
so by definition, I would say less entrepreneurial, but but my
mother's side of the family, like, yeah, they're more
entrepreneurs. They're they're more business
ingrained. So yeah.
But it was just kind of something that always, yeah.
I mean, we've always been inquisic, yeah.

(05:49):
Talk to me a little bit more about that.
Like what does that mean to inquisitors?
Yeah. I mean, I think as as a family,
we're always encouraged to do, to try and, and do new things to
explore. I mean, yeah, we, we travelled a
lot. I mean, yeah, meet, meet like
everybody was always interested in in meeting different people,

(06:10):
going to new places, etcetera. So be a bit more yeah, do do
more like that, right. And, and then, yeah, for me, my,
my path, I mean, even like when I was young, I mean, when I was
11, I kind of decided, OK, for my, what is, I don't know, in,
in, in the UK 7th year. So I wanted to go to boarding
school, right? And, and had a, had a specific

(06:31):
view. OK, I want to do that.
And, and boarding school is not something that is very common in
Belgium. There's, there's not many, it's
not that not common at all. But I said, OK, that's great
because I want to be part of, of, of that.
And, and the school is very famous for sports.
I want to do that, that in termsof university, I also had my own
kind of vision where I wanted togo.
I didn't. There's a in Belgium, there's
like a, a city that is called Leuven, which is very popular

(06:54):
for university. And basically everybody goes
there or went somewhere else, right.
So and, and, and, and, and yeah,that was always encouraged at
home. So kind of go create your own
path. Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, it's interesting the the what you're telling me, it shows
a lot about you having a lot of just visionary ability at a

(07:17):
relatively young age, being relatively self aware.
Obviously it's somewhat from nurture because you said your
parents really pushed you to have that, you know, to forge
your own path. But do you think that any any of
that was nature as well, or is it mostly all?
I think, I think a part of a bigpart of it is nature because
ultimately, yeah, my brother ended up doing the same thing as

(07:38):
my father. So although he, he had the
ability to venture off and then was encouraged to venture off,
he, he, he chose to stay closer to home to and everything,
right? And, and what he does, where he
lives, where he works and everything he is, is achieving a
lot, but it's all closer to home, right?
So I do think it's a lot of, a lot of nature.

(08:00):
I think what, what my, what my parents did was always, yeah,
encourage us to make our own decisions, right?
Not say you have to go to this school or you have to go to this
school or you have to do this oryou have to do that.
Encourage to make our own decisions, right?
And so therefore, yeah, that that is what the environment,
what the environment encouraged.Nature is still what?

(08:21):
Yeah. What is ultimately kind of
created, I guess, Yeah. How did you value education from
like a high school, secondary education all the way up to
college? Because I know that, you know,
your parents being lawyers, theyobviously valued education to a
degree. But you are entrepreneurial.
And sometimes there's this disconnect between the very

(08:41):
entrepreneurial mindset. I'm going to go start my own
thing and you know, being an academic.
So where do you stand? Yeah, I've always been very
critical. I mean, I did, I did do my I, I
always felt I'm doing my, my parents a favour by, by indeed
going to university and all of that.
All. Of that I was always questioning
I can achieve more if I just create my own path now to me it

(09:02):
always felt like OK, it's just delaying my path for for another
four or five years, right. But but yeah, in hindsight,
yeah, I, I think it's still veryformative, right.
In hindsight, I think it's stillvery formative.
I mean, yeah, just, yeah. So I mean, but there's, there

(09:25):
was definitely that tension thatentrepreneur as an entrepreneur
where you want to break free andthen start doing stuff as
quickly as possible. And and and the tension of not
wanting to be in a mole that that at least Belgian
universities provide. Yeah, did.
Did you find it easy or hard to make friends as you were growing
up? I, I mean, I, I was always quite

(09:51):
social, but yeah, social to a large group, but with a small
group of friends. Yeah, yeah.
And, and actually some of those,although I've like, although
I've travelled a lot, right. So I spent, as I said, I spent
about 20 years outside of Belgium.
So and, and, and OK, if you do like 2 years away and then come

(10:13):
back, that's easy to maintain relationships.
If you do 19 years away and, andare in a completely different
environment, it's, it's harder to maintain those relationships
because ultimately, like if, if I compare my rhythm of life, if
you, if you want, like to all the people that I went to high
school with, right, they got kids earlier.

(10:35):
They were settled in a certain work environment earlier.
They they joined certain milestones in their lives that
are now not synced with what I've done.
Right. Which ultimately creates, yeah,
social barriers to friendship, right?
Definitely. And, and yes, just kind of being

(10:57):
in being in a different culture for so long, it does the same
thing. But yeah, nonetheless, there's a
couple of friendships that from my high school days still
survive. Like 2 weeks ago I went surfing
with, with, with the mate that Iwent surfing with, with when I
was 16 years old, right. So there is depth to certain
relationships, but others, yeah,just this kind of this async and

(11:18):
and and and lifestyles is is makes it very, very difficult.
Yeah. I'm curious to know your
experience with the different Asian cultures kind of compare
and contrasting to the European mindset, just the long term
versus short term values mentality.
Like what do you how did? How was your experience?
I mean, I always love to be in places.

(11:39):
I mean, like, yeah, if you, if you look at on a very high
level, right. If you were to to ask people in
Europe, where will you be 5 years from now, right?
Everybody would think, generallythink would people would say
it's going to be hard, right? Or they, they wouldn't be very

(12:00):
bullish, right? They were like, Oh yeah,
probably ageing population, yeahthey'll probably taxes will have
to go up. This, this, that, right?
I mean everybody would have concerns, right?
Whereas in China, I mean, like everybody was thinking, I, I, I
can be a millionaire in five years no problem.
And probably probably a couple of my friends will be, it's just

(12:20):
kind of will I achieve it or not, right?
But this is the direction we're going, right?
Everybody, everybody basically generally everybody thinks five
years, everything will be a lot better than it is now, right?
And, And, and I think you have that, you have this, I guess,
yeah, this is kind of the cycle of, of the, the, the cycle of
the world, right? The certain, let's say, European

(12:43):
economy or, or an American economy has grown a lot.
And then kind of, yeah, somebodyelse has to.
And then you kind of you kind ofmatured, right.
And then somebody else is going through that growth spurt and
then matures, right. And it's all the cyclical
behaviour. And, and, and yeah, what is
interesting that is, yeah. And, and obviously China in, in

(13:03):
in the early 2000s it yeah, it came from, from a very, very
troubled kind of history, right,for the for the last kind of
30-40 years before that, right. So, yeah, there was only upside
for sure was quite clear. There was no doubt.
So I think that that's what you had very much right, what what
you had in Asia versus versus what you have what you have in

(13:27):
in the West where everybody knewthat most likely they'll be
better off in five years time. Whereas, yeah, in the West that
happened 50 years ago. That is not necessarily true
anymore now, right? And, and and that creates a
very, a very different dynamic, right?
And it's, yeah, it's, it's and it's, it's kind of what

(13:48):
happening now a little bit in the Middle East, right?
A lot of people, at least here from Europe all moving to Dubai.
You see this whole hype. And because everybody in there,
things are, it will be better. And then there's a whole bunch
of people who jump on that boat,right?
They're like, I'm going to go there.
Because you'll have a mindset ofpeople who just want to go and
invest in stuff and, and, and break boundaries, create
something new and you'll get sucked up on that and that and

(14:09):
that kind of attitudes, right? Yeah.
Yeah, it's fascinating to me. When I was in college, I started
a small business and it affordedme the opportunity to do
manufacturing in China. It's fresh out of college, so I
got to go there and really experience that culture over a
number of years up until COVID happened.
And one thing that struck me similar to what you're saying is

(14:29):
just the not only the long term mindset, but the investment in
the long term relationship and potential of someone.
Because I was a very small business and the people who I
worked with, I really had no realistic forecast to say like,
oh, we're going to benefit you in this financial way.
But they really invested in the relationship, brought me over,
paid for me to stay there, introduced me to their friends

(14:51):
and family. And I, it goes back to what
you're saying too. It's interesting with the US,
Europe's a little bit different because there's a lot longer of
a history. But within the US the culture is
so fast-paced and short term mindset, probably because we've
only been around for 250 years. But you're going back to the
Chinese, you know, you've got thousands of years of recorded

(15:12):
history of ups and downs. And I really think that that
really affects the people and how you raise your children and
how you start a business. And it's not all about this RIP
roaring startup mindset. Rah, rah, rah, as fast as you
can. Yeah, but.
But there's, there's also a big focus and, and that, that, that
kind of there's also they believe in community a lot more,
right? So like, if you look, I mean, I,
I did some early 2000s again, business in China, wherever you

(15:37):
went, there was a, there was a national International Airport
or a national airport or a regional airport, right?
And, and out of those airports, you had a four lane highway,
right? And you had mobile phone
connection and, and you, you, soyou, you could go to something
quite remote quite very conveniently and have still good
media Internet connection, right?
If you go to India, you step outof an airport, it's death,

(16:00):
right? There's nothing if you need to
get 20 kilometers of the road, the roads, you'll spend an hour,
right? There's but, but in China there
is this element of okay, collectively, this is for the
for the benefit, right? It's also central run
government. It's for the benefit we're
investing in infrastructure because as a whole, we will
benefit, right? And there's less focus on the

(16:22):
individual. There's more focus as on the
whole and, and, and that, that, that is the same thing.
It's, it's, it reflects in personal relationships also,
right? There's a more holistic view to
to a relationship and and a longer term view which is
ingrained in their culture, I believe.
I mean, I'm not saying it's bad or good, but it's it's
culturally very different. Yeah, yeah, there's good and bad

(16:45):
to it. I I what I struggle with here in
the US is just the mindset of, oh, now China is the new Russia
for us. It's like we just look at them
as like, oh, they're communists,you know, kind of throw the baby
out with the bathwater. But realistically, we're so
intertwined with them from a business perspective.
And there's so many things you can learn.
I mean, even though they are, you know, the way that they are

(17:06):
in their communist values, they have these special economic
zones where you can have lots ofinnovation happening really fast
and there's things that we couldlearn from them.
But yeah, it's a fascinating culture.
So I'm curious for you like yourfirst real corporate job out of
colleges sound like was working with Volkswagen to go and to set
up this I believe factory for automatic transmissions.

(17:26):
The the first, the first one wasthat and that we were send us as
Volkswagen investment company. And at the time Volkswagen had
had two joint ventures. I mean, so you needed to set up
a joint venture as a as an automotive company.
You needed to set up a, a joint venture to assemble cars, right?
And you had these big state owned companies and they were
producing all the cars, which basically meant you had a
Volkswagen. And next to it was Ford, next to

(17:48):
it was any, all the brands were produced by the same
manufacturer as assembled by thesame manufacturers, right?
And so back in the early 2000s, we went in as a wholly owned
investment group, right? And, and, and ultimately the
idea was, OK, this joint ventureor this, this joint venture in
the north and this joint venturein the South.

(18:08):
They have their boats, they bothhave their kind of supplier
bases, right? But why don't we kind of try to
kind of find the synergy effectsand and find one supply for
everything we're doing, qualify him and then start exporting,
right? Because Volkswagen is obviously
Volkswagen Skoda OD. So we were producing four or
five different brands in in China and we were buying from

(18:31):
different suppliers just becausewe inherited them from the
platform plans we had joint ventures with.
And like, OK, let's bring them under our own umbrella and let's
qualify them and then let's start exporting, right?
Because if you, if you buy 100,000 screws from somebody or
you buy a million screws, you'llget a bit a better price for a
million, right. So, yeah.
And and that, that was simply the idea.
And, and that was the first few years and then afterwards, yeah.

(18:55):
Then afterwards the idea was because China has import tax on
cars, right? So to, so to, to, to actually be
competitive in the market, right.
I mean, obviously some high end like some high end Audis or some
high end like high end brands, they don't import tax doesn't
really matter. But generally for for what you

(19:17):
want to sell to the normal consumer, it is relevant.
So we started making, we startedto see, OK, what do we need to
do to, to be considered local, right.
And that's where the, the gearbox plant came in.
Because we've had OK, if you, ifyou produce gearboxes, engines
and assemble local, it's it's considered a local car and then
there is no impact. Tax.
And, and, and, and so, yeah, we,we, we, we had this host and I,

(19:39):
I got involved because I, I had a good understanding of the, of
the supplier base because of thefirst project.
I knew what suppliers were good,what the suppliers could do well
and what, what didn't work right.
And what we actually had to build ourselves if we wanted to
do something in China. Because yeah, it's not simply
replicating what happens in Germany, because in Germany you

(20:01):
produce in a certain way which fits with the German labour
force, let's say, which fits with the supplier base around
it. But other stuff, yeah, there's
certain stuff that we wanted that they do in house in Germany
does not make sense to do it in China because somebody else can
do it a lot better, right? And it's just kind of re
jiggling the value chain to makeit fit.

(20:21):
And I had a good understanding of how we jiggle to re jiggle
the value chain to make it fit for the ultimate goal right?
Yeah, Yeah. That's interesting.
Were you when you were presentedwith this challenge?
Was it difficult for you to makethe decision whether to accept
or deny it just based on you being so entrepreneurial like?
Well, I mean, no, it's actually my entrepreneur because I was, I

(20:42):
was still fairly junior, right? And, and, and, and they were
talking about this plant that they wanted to build up, right?
And they had some and, and they were talking about it and, and,
and, and they were just kind of replicating what happened in
Germany. They wanted to do it again in
China, right? And, and, and I was sitting in
the third row and, and of a of ameeting and suddenly raise my
hand and say like, that's a shitID that works in Germany.

(21:04):
It will not work in China, right?
And, and actually, yeah, I was too outspoken.
I I mean, I, I remember my boss at the time looking at me like,
shut up. This is not your place to say
anything, right? But, but luckily the, the guy
who was making the decisions hadresonated.
This, this, this, this actually sounds interesting.
What why, why do you say this? And he, he heard me out and he

(21:27):
kind of yeah, it's indeed it's alittle bit presumptuous from us
to say things in China will workthe same as in Germany actually
need. No, we need to consider the
local market, right. And and yeah.
And and I was lucky because I could have it could have gone
the other way also, they could have gone you you're not senior
enough to sit here, zip your mouth.

(21:49):
Listen, we will make decisions, right.
So I was lucky that the guy who was making those decisions was
actually open to a different point of view.
So I would argue it's actually my my entrepreneurial mindset or
do. They got you that position.
That got me that position, yeah.So then I guess this might be an
appropriate time to introduce for you personally.

(22:11):
When did endurance sport and triathlon start to enter the
scene? And then was it after this stint
in China? I mean, you said you worked
there for 19 years. So this is obviously a long
period of time. But what what took place between
that project and then when you decide to take a a step away
from the corporate world? But I mean, for me, I saw the
touch points with with endurancesport was way before that.

(22:34):
I mean, I, I, I chose my school because they, they were, they
did a lot of sports, right? And actually this and that
cycling, cycling is always big in, in, in Belgium, big cycling
culture. But they had a touch point with
triathlon was 1996 with Luke Fannier, the one Ironman Hawaii,
right? I mean, and that, that, that
just had a massive impact. And, and I started and, and all

(22:57):
my friends and, and myself, we all started to do triathlon,
right? I mean, next thing is cycling.
We all started to do triathlon and it's kind of and and yeah,
and and then it stuck with me. So the multi sport aspect stuck
with me throughout my whole corporate career.
I consider continue to run. I continue to cycle where I
could, right swimming a little less so, but OK, and and and

(23:17):
ultimately, yeah, living in China, I went and did little
races in Korea, little races in Japan, little races in Thailand,
And it was kind of the holiday was just an always an active
holiday and always ended up to be around a triathlon of some
sort, right with like minded people.
So that that that very much became part my identity.
And I do. It was only after the projects

(23:39):
in China with Volkswagen. Then they were because I was an
expat. They kind of said, look, you've
done your time. Now you go back to Germany and
and, and, and, and then we'll send you to somewhere else when
the next cool project comes up. And I'm like, I want to try
something different. I mean, this was really working
seven days a week. I lived in a hotel for three
years, right. So.
Oh. My goodness.

(23:59):
So I was no, no, no, I'll take asabbatical if you're offering me
that. And, and I want to qualify for
Hawaii, right? I want to go to Kona.
This is kind of my dream, right?And, and actually, so they, they
agreed I could take a sabbatical.
I, I, I said, well, China is notthe greatest place to, to train,
but I wanted to stay in, in, in,in kind of the Chinese language.

(24:22):
So I moved to Taiwan and startedtraining almost full time.
I still studied a bit of Chinese, but I started almost
training full time. And that's how I got into
triathlon more as a business because when I was training, I
got into the community. Then I, I, I raced an event in,
in, in, in New Zealand called Challenge Wanaka.
I met the most with the family who owned, who owned Challenge

(24:43):
Roth, right. And I like, look, guys, yeah,
why don't we, why don't I help you guys set up more in Asia,
right? And, and, and, and that's kind
of how I started my first triathlon business just because
I couldn't just train. I wanted to do something more
than just train, right. And, and yeah, and, and yeah,
and that's done the beginning. And from there, I I met Chris
McCormack and I met this and I did that and that and it's kind

(25:06):
of just continue to roll. Yeah, yeah.
So you, you seem to be a very confident and enabled person for
like building relationships. Would you agree with that?
Well, I, I don't know, I mean, I, I confident, I just, I'm
just, I'm just driven, I guess, right?

(25:27):
I, I don't, I don't know whetherconfident is, is the right word,
but it's, it's kind of it just single minded.
I like, I like, for example, OK,I started challenge family.
I started Challenge Taiwan because of challenge family.
I said, OK, I need to make this big.
How do I make it big? OK, Who's the biggest name in
triathlon? Chris McCormack was at the time
the biggest name in triathlon. So I'll call him right.
It's like it's it's a. No brainer, Yeah.

(25:50):
It's a no brainer. It's just what you have to do,
right? So let's, well, let's e-mail him
and, and then he answered, OK, let's, let's take it from here,
right? And, and, and yeah, sometimes it
works, sometimes it doesn't, right?
But it's, it's, it's not about confidence.
I think it's about, yeah, just doing shit and then and then
being resilient because more than half the time it doesn't
work. And then and then it's it's

(26:12):
about being resilient then, right?
I think most people, yeah, they they, they make too much drama
out of doing something and then they make them even more drama
if it doesn't work, Like don't make too much drama.
Do it fail, do it better. And, and, and and and just
action, right? If you're just action, it's it's

(26:33):
it's. Sometimes it works better.
Yeah. When, when did you realize like,
OK, this is this is the industrythat I want to spend literally
all of my time investing into? Was that relatively immediate?
Yeah, I mean, I, I remember, I remember there was a moment.
I mean, it, it is a balancing act, right, Because, yeah, I, I,

(26:56):
I did AI had Volkswagen. I mean, obviously it's a big
organization. I mean, I did, I, I did a good
job and and there was a career path kind of revealing itself,
right. That gives a lot of security.
Yeah. And then and then like with with
starting an event in triathlon, No, there's no career path that

(27:20):
reveals itself, right? You don't know what tomorrow
will be. Yeah, there's.
Yeah. And the career paths that
possibly reveal themselves are not necessarily very engaging.
I remember. I remember because after, after
kind of two years, my, my, my sabbatical, so with, with

(27:40):
Volkswagen was off. So I needed to decide, do I go
back or not, right? And I said like, I'm, I'm, I'll
continue down this path, right? And yeah, my father jumped in a
plane to, to try to convince me for three days that that was a
stupid idea, right? Because nothing was revealing
itself. Yeah.
Right. I mean, it was only the last
dinner that he gave up trying toconvince that we actually had a
normal conversation. But but yeah, so, so and there

(28:07):
was definitely then like a little bit after that I was kind
of considering and I went back into corporate for a little
stint for for about 7-8 months to kind of think, well, maybe
maybe there is a bit too much insecurity around that.
Maybe this is more of a passion play and I can kind of balance
it on the long alongside having a corporate job, right.
But then either you do somethingor you don't do it.

(28:29):
So I kind of, yeah, rotated out of that relatively, I think it
was nine months or something rotated out of that and say,
look, I'll, if I let's have a crack, right.
And and since then it's it's just continuous rolling.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Too much about what will be in
10 years. Think, think about, focus on
today and tomorrow, yeah. Yeah, yeah, survival.

(28:50):
Well, I want to go back just fora second.
Like the fact that you mentionedthat your father flew out to see
you for three days and worked onconvincing you up until that
last dinner, that says a lot about your relationship with
him. But I'm curious from your
perspective, was that were you, were you seeking your father's
approval to figure out what to do?
Like did you and ask him to cometo that aid to like help you

(29:12):
make a decision? Or was this something that like,
how was your dynamic with him and your relationship during
that? Time I think he's I like I've no
I mean the dynamic is more that he has a certain I mean, as I
said, my mother has more of an entrepreneurial side of the
family and and my mother and andher mother, my grandmother
actually has always encouraged me to be entrepreneurial and to

(29:34):
do something new. My father has always advocated
for for a more traditional path,right.
So yes, this is this is a clear manifestation of of that.
But it's been throughout that, that, that, that I was looking
to for encouragement to my grandmother and my mother and,
and, and my father to kind of question, right and.
And and. And typically my me resisting

(29:57):
against that. So I guess, yeah.
Is your father proud of you? I suppose.
So I should ask him the question.
Yeah, yeah. That's interesting.
So then you decided after 7 or 8months, this isn't for me and
you go back, what was the, the, the thing that you started doing
after that? Was that the challenge?

(30:20):
Just commit more time, more time.
Yeah, commit more time and I always kind of OK, that was
continuing challenge, challenge Taiwan.
I was committing more to it, butI also started quickly looking
OK, what is bigger, right? Because I mean, as a foreigner
running an event, a triathlon event in in Taiwan, what's the
bigger opportunity? Where does this go?

(30:42):
Right. And yeah, I think where I, where
I have to probably challenge myself, I always have, I mean, I
always want to move fast and, and see big things, right?
I mean, I have a philosophy likethe same with Volkswagen.
I find it very exciting to, to build a new plant from scratch
because you make bold moves right?

(31:04):
Once, I mean, as soon as that plant hits start of production,
I'm out, right? Because all you do then in my
opinion is, is fine tuning details less exciting.
So I, I, yeah, I, I want to, I, I, I like growth, right?
And, and then I need, I need strong, yeah, I need good
partners and a good team that that kind of can then work in

(31:26):
the details and refine that, right?
I think, yeah. And, and, and I think because,
yeah, throughout this whole journey, there's always, it's
always been creating a team, right?
And building people around me who, who, who kind of do all the
stuff that I'm not good at. Yeah.
And recognizing that right. Yeah.
So talk to me about the the genesis of the idea and then the

(31:48):
founding of Super League, which would just become Super Try.
Well, so we've always tipped it's all everything what I've
done since kind of Volkswagen has always been in and around
triathlon. And then then ultimately, yeah,
we, we've done, we've done a couple of few things together
with Chris McCormack, Maca and, and, and then so who also has

(32:11):
obviously deep passion for triathlon.
He was a professional athlete himself, right?
And then we, we, we, we met a third individual, Leonid
Boguslowski. He's an investor by trade and he
discovered triathlon much later in life, right?
And yeah, and, and, and ultimately the idea then was,
OK, how can we, what can we do new in triathlon, right?

(32:34):
How can we innovate triathlon? How can we create a future for
triathlon, right and do something different?
Where's the blue ocean basically?
And, and, and I say and, and ultimately we went back to our
own experience and I'll go back to my own experience.
We're inspired into the sport byseeing a professional by a story
by, I mean for me, look for nearthe winning Ironman Hawaii,

(32:55):
right. So you're you're you're inspired
by a story and yeah, and, and, and ultimately we don't kind of
say, look, if we want to build afuture for triathlon, we don't
need to compete with Ironman. Ironman is does a fantastic job,
right? We need to create something new
and, and ultimately, yeah, we need to make it, which means we

(33:16):
need to fill a void. And what is the void is is look
at today how people consume media.
You look at today what what people want to do, right?
They don't want to necessarily. Not everybody wants to commit to
train 20 hours or 15 hours or 10hours a week to get ready for a
race that will take them 15 hours on average or, or if you
do a half, let's say 6 or 7 hours on average, right.

(33:37):
Some people just want to be entertained and some people just
want to do a triathle. So we kind of to complete
liberties with the formats to create something that is much
more exciting, much more accessible, like creates great
moments on on TikTok, right? That that can be shared,
etcetera, right? And yeah, and and that's and
that's and that was the approach.
Let's create something for the next generation.

(33:58):
Let's create something that thatcan make triathlon cool again,
attract new audiences. And then let's see whether
attracting those new audiences, whether we can inspire them to
compete, right? So we say inspire the competitor
and everyone can we, if you watch this cool racing, if you
watch these guys race, are you then afterwards inspired to, to
do it yourself, Right. And and that's kind of the, the

(34:21):
flywheel that we're that that weare now building.
Yeah, how many times have you come close to death as a
organization? Many times every day, less every
day now, but yeah, in the beginning, in the beginning at
the first approach was look OK, let's try one event and let's

(34:44):
see where the people are actually let's see where the
people are actually interested. If I say people, let's let are
the professional athletes interested in racing it and do
they think it's exciting and, and they do they like, do they
leave like this was, this was great, right?
Are people actually watching it?And are comments interesting,
right? There's media outlets even want
to showcase and broadcast it or they think, well, here's more of

(35:05):
what we don't need, right? So, yeah, that was at the
beginning phase and afterwards COVID hits, which is obviously
pretty dramatic, right? Because, yeah, and, and, and,
and frankly speaking on the board level was like, OK,
Michael, what do we do now? Hibernate or let's fire
everybody and and, and let's let's see what happens after
this, right? You know, let's innovate, right?

(35:26):
And we created an E sport version of of triathlon, right?
So, yeah, so there's definitely been a few, a few instances
where we have to, yeah, could becreative, right, Be close to
death. But I mean, yeah, not look at
death, look at the other side and think, what are we creating
here? Yeah.
So I'm curious then when you areworking with Volkswagen, Audi,

(35:50):
like that whole group and you'resetting up a factory like you
said, well, you need to make bold moves to set it up.
And then once it's set up, you have the people who are really
better at that job fine tuning the process.
Have you, do you think that you will ever approach an A segment
of the journey with super try that?

(36:11):
Is that where you've set it up and now it's just fine tuning,
or are you still far away from that?
I mean there, there's elements within, there's definitely
elements within the business that that are, that are more
that are, that are set up, right.
I would say our professional race series is, is set up and,
and, and, and ultimately I have a a great team of, of, of guys

(36:33):
that are developing that are delivering those races and
they're, they're, they're fine tuning the processes and making
that more seamless, right. So, yeah, it's done.
It's done like, yeah, I, I don'tstart.
I mean, you look at the bigger picture that flywheel, how can
we integrate what is now missing?
How can we do how can we grow? How can we help grow the sport,

(36:54):
right? And and and and ultimately,
yeah, I, I, I see now a big the the next piece of the flywheel
basically providing a mass participation experience, right
and making short course cool again, right.
And not just Iron Man is aspirational, inspirational,
aspirational. And I, I want to the box put the
tattoo. I've done an Iron Man.

(37:15):
I I've done that right. I think what we all, what the
sport also needs is, is iconic urban events that people who are
maybe not as committed as to training 10 hours a week every
week, right? But I want to do a couple of
triathlons and they see it more as a lifestyle choice that kind
of runs throughout the years, right, rather than actually

(37:36):
being very committed, right? So I want to fill that gap now,
right? So, and I'm looking now very
much and OK, how do we build outthis portfolio of mass
participation and how do we create, how do we inspire?
How do we leverage the professional event series to
inspire the, the, the, the people to come and participate
and and be become part of triathlon, right.

(37:59):
And how do we actually grow the sport?
Yeah, I think that's that's an interesting that's an
interesting challenge and and look driven by data right from
from the beginning. We've always done our surveys.
And if you come and watch, are you actually already interested
in triathlon or are you new to the sport, right?
And if you come and watch, do you leave that thinking, hey, I

(38:19):
want to try this, right? And then if you want to try
this, what is your hurdle? How why are you not trying this,
right? And then then breaking that
down? I think that's, yeah, that's
where I spend a lot of my time now.
But also in the reverse, how we then use our professional
athletes or use our professionalinvents to keep the to keep the
community engaged, right? And actually drive and build the

(38:41):
professional athletes to become more famous and be more, yeah,
full-fledged influences in theirown rights as such.
Yeah, yeah. You, you strike me as someone
who, because I'm comparing the the growth of Super Try, Super
League, whatever, Super Try Now.I keep trying to say Super
League with Super Try. Now you, you strike me as

(39:01):
obviously the visionary who wants to keep pushing,
innovating and continuing to grow this sport.
Do you have you ever watched like the Formula One series on
Netflix? Yeah, I've watched the first few
seasons, yeah. Yeah, you remind me of Toto.
Like similarly with obviously Formula One's a lot different,
but there seems to be a bit of overlap and inspiration.

(39:24):
Do you draw inspiration from like those high octane type of
sports to kind of overlay and deliver that similar package for
the triathlon? I mean, I think there's a lot
that can be learned from all different sports, right?
And I think like, yeah, if you, you, you, you touch on Formula
One, I think, and what drive to survive does brilliantly.
It's just kind of zoom out, right?

(39:45):
And, and, and suddenly add so many different storylines,
right? And even if you're not a petrol
head and not interested in cars,you're, you're interested in the
dynamics, like the business and,and, and, and the decisions that
Toto and all these other guys need to make or you get more ISO
or in the management styles, etcetera.
So I I think that is. That is definitely, yeah,
there's definitely a lot that can be learnt from other sports

(40:07):
how yeah, what what happens in the periphery and how much value
that can deliver and how that can be attractive to audiences.
And, and any sport who is not doing that is just kind of,
yeah. Is missing a trick, right?
Because like when I was when I was young, we used to watch the
game on television and that's it, right?
You see the game, that's it. And now I, I, I argue more

(40:28):
people are engaged with everything else than what
they're actually, than people are actually watching the game
as such, right? They will see all the content
around it. They will know who they're
dating, what's happening in their private life, what's
happening with the managers. I mean, back in the day, we
didn't really care who the manager was.
He he was a nobody was it was the game.
The players are the team. That's it, right?
But now everybody else, that plays a big role.

(40:50):
Yeah. So taking into consideration the
ship that is super try and you being more or less at the helm
of this, how would you rate yourself as a leader in terms of
not just your leadership on an interpersonal level, but at the
direction, the speed that this ship is heading?
Like how do you think you're doing?

(41:13):
That that's obviously pure perception, right?
Because what is fast, what is slow to fast to me is slow to
somebody else, etcetera. Yeah, I think yeah, as an
organization, we are, we are still small and nimble and, and
fast moving. And I think and, and yeah, we,
we, we are pushing, we are pushing boundaries.

(41:35):
I I think as an organization, weand, and what I, what I always
want to strive for is, is to continue to innovate, to
continue to learn from differentthings, right?
And, and, and push things forward.
But I think, yeah, as an organization, we have also
matured to a certain extent thatwe've been, have been able to
bring in new people who who alsodeal with, with the stability

(41:58):
pieces of things, right? And and actually build a well
oiled machine, right? Not just an inspirational
spaceship. So.
I, I I think that combo that's where we have probably matured.
I probably struggle a little bitthat the pace has gone out of
the of it a little bit, the nimbleness and the pace has gone
out of it. But as an overarching, if you if

(42:20):
I take a step back, I would still say, yeah, we are still
very nimble and and still still very fast moving, right.
But yeah, so. What What is the greatest,
single greatest need of the organization right now?
Might be a list of things. Yeah, I mean, the single, the

(42:43):
single greatest need. No, but we're fundraising.
So capital has to be, has to be somewhere on top of that list, I
think. Yeah, I, I, I think scale is
what we need to kind of really make an to, to really make a
bigger blast, right. I mean, if we want to be a big
player in North America, I thinkthere's an opportunity now with,

(43:06):
with LA Olympics triathlon beingan Olympic sport to, to create a
buzz around short course triathlon.
But we need scale, which means we need 1015 events, right?
So that people, you have multiple touch points in the
market, right? So, yeah, scale is, is, is a big
thing. And you need capital to do
scale, right? And, and, and OK, capitalize in
cash. But also we need, we need to be

(43:28):
able to expand the team. So human capital like we need to
be able to grow our, our, our, our people quickly, right.
Yeah. I think that's we're, we're
still very much in, in that phase of of ambitious growth
with with that, yeah. Yeah, I've, I've, I've heard
just through the rumor mill likethat, it's been pretty difficult

(43:51):
to get things to attach to the US market as similarly as
Europe, just because I think thecultural values, the age of the
country, the sports that are popular.
Would you agree with that? Well, I mean, I mean, it's,
it's, it's there's a different history, right?
Iron Man is, is the A&O in, in, in, in in the US, right.

(44:13):
So it's, it's all long course triathlon that try.
I mean, if you say triathlon, everybody thinks Iron Man,
whereas in Europe short course triathlon is much more a thing.
And you, you look at the at the Olympic success outside of great
Jorgensen, it's all been Europeans, right?
Because, yeah, that culture for short course racing is much more
existing. I mean, there you have things,

(44:35):
you have short course serieses in France.
You have short course serieses in, in in Germany that actually
make regional television. There is no short course in in
in America anymore. It's dead, right.
Everything is Iron Man. So, yeah, so there is definitely
a cultural shift to kind of say,hey, short course is also a
thing right then for us. Yeah, it's also a little bit

(44:57):
about timing. We we bought an event in the US
just before COVID that obviouslymakes it a bit more difficult.
Then afterwards, yeah, we come out of COVID, there was a bit of
a regroup. We had a new we had a new baby
with super try E with the esports thing.
And and yeah. And so actually now is now is
the time for us after Paris to take the US truly serious,

(45:20):
right. And, and, and, and so I would
say, yeah, we're, we're, we're, we're tackling that now.
Everything that happened until now has, has not been a serious
attempt. And, and, and it's always been
clear that it needs a serious attempt just because we're short
course sits historically. And, and that is that, yeah,
that's the last decades, right, where it's all been long course

(45:44):
in America. And whereas in in Europe, it's
much more short course and long course, but but but a lot more
valid. Yeah.
Do you see a future where it becomes as popular or
increasingly more popular in theUS?
But I think I mean, I, I need, we need the sport to be popular
in my opinion, right? And I, I think like I'm trying

(46:06):
to build a brand for, for, for short course that is all about
short endurance. You don't do more.
It's three hours shorter than three hours as a participant,
right? That is complementary to Iron
Man and, and I think or, or to T100 for that matter, right.
So I think we have to coexist. And then I think like for, for

(46:26):
me, if the, so it's not one or the other, we, I think we
complete a pie or we complete a puzzle.
And if we can complete that puzzle, I think the sport is
competing with other sports, right?
I mean, let's say participation sports are going to grow over

(46:46):
the next five years. There's a big trend that
supports that. People want to be healthy.
People want to do want to be more fit.
They also want to have that community of going to events and
participating, right? Running boom, as always, the,
the, the perfect example of thatof the beginning.
And then afterwards people want to do something else, right?
Triathlon boomed in 2012, 2013, 2014, because yes, that's that

(47:11):
that trend already starting. And then people do running and
then they want to do something else and there was nothing else
to do outside of triathlon. But now you have a lot more, you
have high rocks, you have gravelriding, you have trail running,
etcetera, etcetera. So we as triathlon need to offer
a nice mixture of different things.
We are solving a short course, which makes a sport accessible.

(47:31):
T100 Ironman are are delivering something on long course, right?
What I, what I'd like to see is like a, a loyalty program for
triathlon, like like an air mileprogram, right?
Where OK, I do some with this brand.
I do some with this brand. I do some with this brand, but
like, for example, if I look at myself, yeah, when I got kids,
like I had no more time to trainin Iron Man.
Did I stop doing triathlon? Not really.

(47:53):
I started to do short course now.
Now I'm doing half Iron Man's a little bit more, etcetera.
So I'm getting more back into it, but I continue it to be a
member of the triathlon community as such.
Right. And and depending on your career
part or, or your family life or what happens?
Yeah, that ping pongs. So I think yeah, a rising tide
to make off all boats rise right.

(48:16):
And and and we should actually work together and grow triathlon
as a cool sport. Promote short course, promote
long course, should promote middle course, tell stories that
integrate and that are that are appealing to a wider audience
and draw them into our sport andand and grow it.
So yeah, very long answer. So it's a.
Good answer, I like it. Yeah.

(48:37):
But it's, it's not a balancing. It's we have to do it all.
We all have to grow. Yeah.
So strategic partnerships are are key and in theory they're
they're relatively easy to talk about.
But then when you get people with egos surrounding in table
and trying to figure out what those partnerships look like,
that can be a difficult animal to try to tame.
Are you finding success in setting up those types of

(48:59):
strategic partnerships? We, we, we have conversations
indeed. The, the, the detail.
I mean, like I think overarchingthe, the, the, the, the benefits
are outweigh the troubles. I mean, yeah, the the obvious
problems is, is like the calendar, right?
I mean, yeah, how do you balancea calendar and, and make sure
that it is you don't create too much fiction for for athletes,

(49:22):
right? And you create opportunities.
Actually that's but OK, yeah, individual event organisers
don't always have control of thecalendar because the cities have
a say in that, right. So, I mean, so there is, there
is points of friction and, and, and yeah, I think it takes a lot
of conversation and, and, and ittakes a lot of collaboration to
kind of overcome those points offriction and then kind of see

(49:45):
yeah, and see the bigger picture, right.
But I, I do think that, yeah, generally there's, there's,
there's opportunities and, and, and, and, and, and, and the
other leaders of the big triathlon brands seem to
understand, I have a common interest in, in, in, in, in
seeing that, yeah, as a sport, we actually shouldn't compete
with each other, but we actuallyshould look at the future of the

(50:05):
sport and, and, and that is by all being strong.
So do you think it? Yeah.
Do you think there'll be a day when you have, like, in a
weekend surrounded with Iron Manand like, super?
Try coming in and doing events in the same weekend.
Yeah. I mean, I'm not sure whether
that is the answer that could bethe answer for certain events.
I think that's that's, that's, that's kind of sends a nice

(50:26):
message. But I think it's yeah, for me
the opportunity is more as I said, the the airline kind of
program, right where look, yeah,I get AI get an understanding if
I do and super try events. I'm also getting I'm getting
some credits against something some benefits in in an Iron Man
race and and and and I'm also getting like some some guidance.
How I mean, because maybe I findthe distance a bit scary.

(50:48):
So I like how does it all work for me, right And and how does
the community share with each other?
I think that kind that's where then creating an integrated
community. I think that's where the bigger
opportunity lies than than synergy effects of hosting an
event. I think logistically it's
probably, you're probably running logistical challenges
and then you're thinking, OK, just putting one massive event

(51:12):
on what are we, what are we actually winning outside of what
are we actually winning, right. I mean the, the, the real, the
real, the real benefit is if we can enrich a community and if,
if everybody comes together and kind of, yeah, paint pathways,
create, create dynamics, set newchallenges and, and, and yeah,

(51:33):
they pull people in, pull peopleup, bring people back down.
And and those dynamics can work whether the event happens on the
same day or not. I'm not sure.
The key point? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's interesting. So you're obviously eating,
sleeping, living, triathlon 24/7pretty much.
Now, what part of this journey is the most or has proved to be

(51:56):
the most fulfilling for you? But the journey itself, I think
is, it's, it's like, yeah, because often you get asked what
is your work life balance? Or I mean, there is no work life
balance. I mean, the, the I, I may always
say I only have one life. And, and my life is as an
entrepreneur who loves triathlon, right?
And, and everything revolves around that.

(52:17):
And, and sometimes I need to de stress.
I go and play with my kids. Sometimes I need to de stress
and I work a bit, right? So, but they, they all interact
with each other, right? So, yeah, yeah, it's triathlon
24/7, but it's the same. It is everything is 24/7.
Yeah, it's one, it's one big melting pot that that is just,

(52:39):
that is just, yeah, driving things, things forward.
Yeah, you mentioned family therelike you have three boys and
you've been married for a while.So there there is a lot of
because you know, you said there's real no thing as work
life balance, but spending time with your family working.
Those are things that you have to figure out how to disperse

(53:03):
your time amongst. How does that working for you?
Yeah, it's, it's, yeah. I mean, yeah, probably my, my
kids will probably and my wife will maybe have a different
answer. But I think, yeah, it's, it's
all working quite well. I mean, my, my oldest boy is,
is, is 9 years old. Last year I took him to, to to
our event in, in Long Beach, right.

(53:23):
And, and he, he did the kids, the kids run.
And then he was standing at the finish line handing out medals
for, for an hour. So, yeah, they, they, they
breathe. Like, I really try to integrate
them and, and, and, and the lifestyle of triathlon, right?
They're big swimmers, all of them, right?
So, yeah. So we really try to integrate
them in, in, in into this as a lifestyle, right.

(53:44):
And, and yeah, they know the athletes, they, they come to the
events, they hang around with it.
I, I think, yeah. And, and, and I think that is a
great experience for them too, right?
Because, yeah, it, it inspires them.
So yeah, I, I like, I, I, I think post COVID with, with more
working from home has probably helped a little bit.

(54:04):
Although then on the other side,yeah, my struggle is, OK, how do
we create with a growing team? How do we if, if there's so much
remote, how do we still create that, that, that boiler room
tension that that is I think is is also still critical, right.
But yeah, so, yeah, I mean, it's, it's a constant challenge
and I think it it kind of there is no such thing as a rigid

(54:26):
solution. I think it kind of evolves.
But yeah, for me, it's, and it's, it's integration.
Like I bring the family into thejourney.
They're all part of it. They know what I'm doing.
They know the athletes, they know the colleagues, they come
to the events, they see, they see what it means, right?
And, and, and, and the other wayaround also, right?
It's, it's a for the rest of theteam that, that, that works with

(54:47):
us. They all understand that this is
a lifestyle choice, right? So it, it kind of goes both
ways. And I think you get most out of
people like that. Yeah, yeah, for sure.
So what what gets you in the zone as an individual, whether
it's stuff that you got to do athome, stuff you got to do at
work, getting into training, What are the things that you do
that really get you in the zone?Well, I mean, I mean, it's a

(55:13):
it's a funny question and and I have a bit of a mean what
obviously it's I love, I love, Ilove a run right going out and I
have a run, but I I guess that works for other people.
What I what I also like to do isfor example, clean up, clean up
the counter and clean up the dishes, etcetera.
I think just like a simple. Room.
Like like a simple thing, like Ispend in the evening kind of OK,

(55:35):
empty the dishwasher, fill the dishwasher again, clean
everything up, clean the table. All right.
I feel like I feel good now because I've done my part of
this. I like it clean.
And so that that brings me in a certain zone of OK, things are,
things is, good things are. Stable.
Yeah. Now there's.
So I can't go to bed in the evening unless the kitchen is

(55:55):
clean and the the living room ispicked up.
And there's just something aboutthe cleanliness that helps me
rest and sleep. So I, I, I can totally, totally
relate. Even before I work in the
mornings, yeah, if things are are a little bit messy, I have
to clean them up. There's just something about the
clean space is a clean head. Yeah, I, I, I can't, I can't
deal with my kids rooms anymore.That's why I just, I record
them. But if the kitchen is clean and,

(56:17):
and, and like the breakfast table, etcetera, if that all of
that is clean, then I can sneak into my office and it's like,
OK, the kitchen is clean and, and when the office is in my
safe zones. Yeah, yeah, that's funny.
Are you religious? Are you a spiritual man?
I mean, religion, I am a spiritual man in a sense.
In a sense, yes. But I've lived in, in so many

(56:39):
different countries that I don't, I'm not, I'm Catholic.
I went to, I went to boarding school and, and, and yeah, with,
with, with, yeah, in a monastery.
So yes, I mean, there's, there'shistory there, but I've, yeah,
I've explored different chains of thoughts throughout,
throughout my whole life. So, but yeah, spiritual, yes,

(57:02):
religious if depending on how doyou define that?
Yeah, How did, how would you define it?
Like what are what are your current world views and where do
you sit? I mean, look, I, I mean I, I, I
believe in, I believe in purpose, right?
I believe in, I believe in balance.

(57:25):
Yeah, I believe in, in I believeyou need to I, I believe in kind
of I believe in I, I guess from,from Christianity.
I believe in work, right? So you need to do work to to
earn something, right? That's, that's a typical value
that that we kind of learned. So a little bit of suffering to

(57:45):
earn something is, is a value that I do believe in.
Yeah. But but yeah, it's so it's, I
conceptualize many of, of, of these elements much more than
actually religious going to church and, and, and and doing
things like that. Right.
I I I draw some of the concepts down and implement them.
If I may dig a little bit deeper, I'm just curious, aside

(58:08):
from the outward, outward display of like a kind of
earning or the character values settled around work ethic and
being kind to others from a receiving end, have you ever or
do you ever have like interactions with what you would
say is God or like an inner voice or something like that?

(58:33):
I mean, I, I believe in gut if, if I'm, I'm, I'm not sure
whether that translates or, or Ibelieve in, in, I believe in,
in, in gut, right? And, and, and, and the linear
voice and, and the kind of the, the, the, the, the, the, the
direction of this is this is good or bad, right?
And listening to your guts or toyour inner voice.

(58:56):
Yeah, I do. I do rely on that because, yeah,
a lot of of, of, of decisions that I make, it's difficult to
quantify them outside of that. Right.
Yeah. So you more operate from a
position of like following your gut rather than the logic of the
specific data. I mean, as you grow the company,
I would imagine you have to relya little bit more on data.

(59:17):
But would you say that you operate more from your head or
your heart? I.
Mean look, I, I, I would listen,I would listen to, I would look
at all the data. But then, yeah, then it, it
goes, it goes to guts, right? Even if the data, the data will
inform, the data will not. The data will inform the data
will not necessarily point a decision.

(59:38):
I'm not afraid of making a decision that that doesn't fully
align with the data. If I if, if my gut feels OK,
this is the right thing to do. And it might still be wrong,
right? So, I mean, I'm not saying that
my gut is, is, is is great always.
Yeah. Well, that's, I think that's
what it takes to be like an actual visionary leader because
sometimes all of the signs that you see, you know, written in

(59:59):
the cards or however you want to, you know, whatever metaphor
you want to use, it's sometimes you have that gut feeling that
that pushes you and drives you to do something else.
And I think that's where most people would not operate.
So that's what it takes to be a bit different.
But I like, I mean, but in that part of the process of relying
on to data also rely on a lot ofopinions, right?
So I really like to, I really try to listen and, and take the

(01:00:23):
time to listen to different opinions and different people
and, and, and hear different perspectives, right.
So, yeah, it's, I want to make an informed gut decision, not a
just a gut decision based on just what I, what I woke up
with, right? It's it's yeah, I prefer an
informed gut decision. Yeah, there's there's wisdom in
a multitude of counsellors for sure.

(01:00:43):
Yes, yes, yes, that's even. Yes, yeah, yeah.
So how has your definition of success changed over time since
when you first stepped foot in the corporate world to where you
are now with three kids, a family, an organization that it
will live or die by your leadership?
Like how does your definition ofsuccess success?
Change I, I think, I mean like, yeah, I, I, I think the big, the

(01:01:12):
big, the big perspective is moreyou, you don't have to have the
answers, right? Or, or actually, you don't have
to have a definition of, of whatgood looks like, right?
Invest more in the process or trust more in the process and,
and and yeah, and adjust the process.
Don't, don't get, don't get too hung up on, on, on, on, yeah,

(01:01:36):
where you think you have to be in five days from now or in one
year from now. Invest in a solid process and
then investing in solid systems and structures and focus on
that. Where.
Yeah, I I think that's, that's kind of that's interesting.
Where, where, where, yeah, wherein the beginning I was too much

(01:01:58):
focused on, on OK, there's my goal and now I'm benchmarking
and, and I don't see it yet. I don't see it yet.
And, and, and, and get get panicked about that.
I think, yeah, you have to have the vision.
But then but then very much justwork through the motions and,
and work at at what you can change today, right?

(01:02:20):
Yeah, definitely very different,different approach.
And and then, yeah, work with people more, right?
Have you been tempted ever to let this go and go do something
else? No, no.
I mean, look, have I have, I have.

(01:02:42):
I questioned things and and and and said, ah, yes, for sure.
Have I wanted to let it go? No.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, kind of like being a
father, I would imagine. Yeah.
Yeah. Can't let your kids go.
But I'm not a father yet, but I look forward to it.
But I've heard that there's a lot of parallel there with
starting something and, you know, being your baby.

(01:03:05):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So is there any question that I
should have asked you? Oh, well, you've asked some very
interesting questions and, and, and and different style of
questions. I wouldn't say they're stupid
questions, but interesting questions.
I appreciate that. What, what are, what are we

(01:03:27):
like? Yeah, I would say I'm thinking
out loud, right? Because it's, it's a, it's a
very different direction of, of how, of how a flow of of of kind
of a conversation goes, right. Is there anything else that I
think within, within this framework is worth sharing?
I mean, yeah, I, I guess like 1 reflection if if I, if, if we go

(01:03:55):
through the conversation the waywe've gone through it, right.
It's 111 thing that I that I kind of spurs to mind is to say
there is no, there is no right or wrong, right, Because what I
come across, because I do also alittle bit of, of, of investing
investment in other there's, there's people are aspiring to
be an entrepreneur and think it's all good, right?

(01:04:17):
But if I look at my own, my own experiences and my own dynamics,
right? You're either you're either
suitable for this lifestyle or you're not, right?
And, and they're, and, and not everybody has to become suitable
for this lifestyle, right, Of pursuing something like this.
And I, I feel like in today's world, sometimes it is a little
bit too much idealized, right? Like, yeah, if if you pursue

(01:04:41):
your own way and you become an entrepreneur and, and you have
that drive, that is the best thing to do.
Well, no, it's one way of doing it.
It has all his ups and downs, but I think I definitely don't
want to. Yeah, I, I don't think.
Yeah, I encourage people not to think.
Oh, that's, that's, that's wherethe grass is greener, right?

(01:05:03):
Like I reflect on my life now and I see it at my friends,
maybe people who have done otherstuff and they, I, I, I envy
them in certain things, right? Because they have followed their
path and it's, it's maybe a little less entrepreneurial.
They followed more into a model of what, what the family has
done and what, what their fathers and grandfathers has
done before them and, and be less risk taking, but they'll

(01:05:26):
have great lives and, and great satisfaction, right?
So I think, yeah, whilst, whilstwe are talking about the
excitement of being an entrepreneur, yeah, that's
there's I, I think there's a lotof other stuff that is also very
exciting, right? And I think a lot of people, if
I, if you were you were to ask me, what is your advice to other
people is like, I do what you want to do, right.

(01:05:47):
And if, if you don't see and and, and yeah, being an
entrepreneur and, and trying to do different things, it's not
necessarily the right thing for everybody, right?
You don't want to deal with the stress of that.
It's, it's frustrating, right? It's, it's annoying.
It gives so much uncertainty, right?
You can be, you can be, there's more happiness sometimes in

(01:06:08):
something else, right? If that's more what suits you,
right? So I, I think, yeah, I mean,
it's not really direct an answerto you, but I feel like if
you're having these conversations, we're, we're
talking very much about, yeah, I'm talking how I'm passionate
about my journey. But I, I, I also think we have
to counterbalance that and say, yeah, my journey is my journey.

(01:06:30):
It's, it's, it has its ups and downs and, and, and an
entrepreneur is one way of living and there's other ways of
living that are at least that are very satisfying also.
And if you're good at that, you'll be even more satisfied
then, then, then, yeah. Yeah.
I mean, that kind of balance I think is sometimes important to
strike. Yeah, I would agree to to use,

(01:06:52):
you know, an industry that you're familiar with, like a
car. There's many pieces of a car and
some of them are getting a lot of attention, like the engine or
the tires. But no one thinks about, you
know, the interconnecting mechanisms that transfer fluids,
you know, from the engine to wherever else.
And some people are really good at being that very specific
chain link on a chain or that specific hose that transports

(01:07:15):
this fuel to that line or whatever it is.
So, yeah, I think that there's alot to be said in that with
entrepreneurship. It's interesting, in the past 15
or so years, entrepreneurs have become like these rock stars of
society. But I really, as I've gotten
older, judge less on the monetary success and more on,
well, what did their family lifelook like?
What did their personal relationships look like?

(01:07:37):
Were they nice? I mean, everyone's human, so we
all have our downfalls. But by and large, when you look
at the aggregate, did people like being around them?
Were they inspired to be around them?
Or were they pushed to extremes where like it was almost like a
level of self harm? So there's definitely, there's
definitely, yeah. And it's OK to be the the small
cog. It really is if that's what

(01:07:58):
brings you happiness and fulfillment.
Going home, being home with yourfamily, being able to cut work
completely off. Some people like going to bed
and having nothing else to thinkabout.
So yeah, I think that's wise, wise advice.
Yeah, I, I think that's an important point to make, right?
It's, it's, let's not idealize here or there, right?
I mean, I like my recommendationto everybody's focus on your

(01:08:18):
journey, right? And, and I see it also in our
hiring process. Sometimes people come on board
and the environment, the nimble environment, the uncertainties,
the constant changing the, the, the they're not fixed hours.
It doesn't fit right. And then they kind of feel bad
or they think, oh, something is wrong.
Actually, nothing is wrong. It's just not a fit, right?
It's like, yeah, if you try the wrong size and it doesn't fit,

(01:08:40):
it doesn't fit. There's nothing wrong with you.
There's nothing wrong with it with, with, with, with the
T-shirt, right? It just doesn't fit.
So yeah. And, and I think that's
sometimes important to to remindpeople of.
Yeah, 100%. So my last question to you,
because I'm sure you got some stuff you got to get going to
what do you want to be remembered for when you go on

(01:09:03):
from this earth when you die? Well, I mean, yeah, I, I hope,
I, I hope I, I mean, I have the ambition to have a bit of a
legacy in triathlon. I, I, I hope I like there's, I
hope, yeah. That we, we, we, we can have
made triathlon into a whole moreholistic sport, right?
I think triathlon as a sport is still young, right?

(01:09:23):
It's, it's grown fantastically over 40 years.
But I think As for its maturity,it needs a better balance
between short and long. And, and I hope I kind of kind
of contributed my little piece to the sport by saying, Hey,
we've, we've given short course to add on a shot.
And, and by doing so, we've actually kind of how do you say

(01:09:44):
made the sport more sustainable,right?
Made the sport here to stay because it is balanced, because
it, it offers something for different peoples of interests,
right? So I, I hope, yeah, I, I, I hope
I have contributed to the longevity of the sport that I'm
very passionate about. And then with that and with
that, actually have changed lives, right?

(01:10:06):
That is obviously about the consequence because the sport
will only the sport is there to change lives and to to get
people active, healthy, motivated.
Yeah, give them something. Give them an out or give them an
in, whatever it is, right? Yeah, yeah, I would agree.
I think at the end of the day, yeah, it's really all about who
you know and the lives that you're able to impact for sure.

(01:10:26):
And this, it all comes back downto people less about money
because money cannot do a thing without the people involved for
sure. So yeah, well, Michael, I really
appreciate you taking the time to sit down with me on this
humble podcast to hear your story and all the best to you.
I would love to have you on again in the future, but it will
be really neat to see how thingsshape up for, especially toward

(01:10:50):
the next Olympic Games and see how you guys are able to grow in
North America. If there's ever a race nearby, I
would love to go check it out and give it a shot.
Yeah, we'll, we'll, we'll get one nearby and otherwise you
have to travel a little bit. Yeah.
I might have to cover to Europe at some point.
Yeah, Yeah. Yeah.
Well, thank you so much. Thank you.
Great. For having me, thank you.

(01:11:11):
Thank you so much to Michael forcoming on the podcast today and
allowing me to, as I say, every episode dive into his life.
Really do appreciate it because it is always cool to hear how
people live their lives and do the things that they do.
So Michael left us with, you know, how does he want to be
remembered that he made an impact in the people's lives and
in the sport of triathlon. So I wish all the best to him.

(01:11:34):
And again, thank you so much Michael for being here.
Make sure to check out the show notes for any links in the
description from newsletter to sponsor stuff with Zone 2 or
what else is in there. If you are listening on YouTube,
if you could like comment, subscribe.
Really helps to continue to growthe channel and turn that
notification belt on. If you are listening on Spotify
or Apple Podcasts, you know whatto do there.

(01:11:54):
Comment, review, subscribe, anything you can do.
Really appreciate you guys beinghere and we will catch you in
the next one piece.

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Episode #150 - Michael Dhulst, Co-Founder & CEO of SuperTri

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Episode #150 - Michael Dhulst, Co-Founder & CEO of SuperTri