43. Replenish and Restore: Self-Care and Body Image with Therapist, Kira Denney

Join Jess and Kira, a licensed therapist and founder of Pearl Wellness, to discuss the importance of body image, self-care, and community engagement. This episode delves into Kira's journey from Florida to D.C., her work with human trafficking victims, and her collaborative practice promoting mental health and eating disorder awareness. The episodes emphasize the significance of body image flexibility, the impact of early influences, and the need for self-awareness. They explore various strategies, such as cognitive behavioral therapy, to manage negative body image thoughts and the intentions behind body modifications. Additionally, the series highlights the role of community events, partnerships with organizations like Dancers Beyond Labels, and practical self-care activities tailored to individual needs. The conversation encourages a mindset of resilience, self-compassion, and the art of 'becoming' rather than seeking perfection.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:09):
Hello, friend, and welcome to Sturdy Girl, a
podcast focused on strength, notsize, where you will hear
conversations around flexiblebody image, cultivating
confidence and being a resilienthuman in both body and mind.
Sturdy Girl is the podcastwhere we shift the focus away
from your appearance and on toliving the big, rad life you
deserve.
We have another wonderfulinterview today.

(00:31):
I always hesitate.
I'm like, how do I explain thisguest I have on?
Do we say amazing, wonderful,another sturdy human.
I'm never going to bring a badguest onto the podcast.
I have Kira here today.
She is a therapist, a founderof her own practice, and I
really just want her to take itaway and tell us all about who
she is and what she does.

Speaker 2 (00:51):
Hello, kira, thank you so much for having me.
I'm excited about kind of justthe conversation we're going to
have wherever that leads today.
So, as you mentioned, I am alicensed therapist in Florida,
dc, delaware, massachusetts andMaryland, and so I can kind of
talk about like why I'm licensedin all those states at some
point.
But that is what I do by trade.
So I see specifically, though,individuals with eating

(01:13):
disorders, body image,disordered eating and just like
general mental health, and I dothat in addition to also working
a full-time job.
So the private practice is mylittle baby, but it's like my
pandemic baby.
Essentially, I get to do itwith one of my best friends
who's a registered dietitian, sothat's actually kind of how we
came to be, to build thispractice, and so we see people

(01:34):
basically just up the East coastfor those types of services.

Speaker 1 (01:37):
That's so awesome, the fact that you have partnered
with a dietitian so you havethis well-rounded I'm just
thinking about when you talkabout eating disorders,
disordered eating and that pieceso you have your wealth of
knowledge and then someone whohas, like, the clinical and
science background withnutrition to just make that.
That's amazing.

Speaker 2 (01:57):
Yeah, and we love it and you know we love when we can
share a client.
I think that's great.
But we also recognize thatwe're not going to be the best
fit for everyone.
And so there's definitelymultiple times where I'll be
seeing someone who sees someoneelse that's a dietitian and then
she'll see someone, and youknow they might have an outside
therapist.
But when we can have thosesessions together or those
clients together, rather it'sbeautiful to kind of see that

(02:17):
and also just bounce off ideas,because it's hard, as we all
know, to get in contact withpeople.
And you know, when you havesomeone in-house they can be
like hey, did you see so-and-sotoday?
Okay, what did they say?
And stuff.
So it's just like really niceto have that.

Speaker 1 (02:29):
And when the clients have a team, more or less, it's
that collaboration model.
I mean, just as nerdy as it is,I was just thinking back to
like when I was in dentalhygiene school.
We worked with the entirecollege of health professions
College of Health Professions,and so they taught us, like what
they were trying to build was acollaborative health model of
being able to share thatinformation amongst providers,
and it still doesn't exist overa decade later.

(02:50):
Right, and I'm in dental andthat was everyone else's in
medical side of things, and theywere like, no, that doesn't
necessarily exist, but it wouldbe amazing.
So a lot of the cases that weshared in school, I was like
these people have comprehensivecare, so much more so.
But, ok, so your business isyour little baby, like you
called it.
I love that.
Tell me how it came to be.
Is there a story there?

(03:11):
Like how did you decide?
Like, all right, we're doingthis.

Speaker 2 (03:14):
There's definitely a story there.
I'm originally from Florida andmy business partner is from the
South Lake, mississippi, and weactually only met probably only
like at this point, maybe fouryears ago, but prior to that, I
was living in Florida, went toundergrad in Florida, went to
grad school in Florida and thenI was like I'm sick of Florida,
I need to get out of here, andso I ended up going to DC and

(03:36):
working with actually humantrafficking victims.
So that's also another areathat I really enjoy working with
and advocating for and justlike being able to see that
experience and helpingindividuals once they have kind
of those basic needs met andthat's.
I could go on a tangent aboutthat, so I'll stop there.
So I worked with humantrafficking victims in DC and
then, for a very short period ofmy life, I went out to Indiana

(03:56):
and it's a great state, just wasnot for me.
So I moved back to the EastCoast I want to say in 2020,
right before the pandemic and Igot this job at a treatment
center that was for eatingdisorders and in that job I met
my business partner.
Unfortunately, just due to thepandemic and financials and
things like that, that companyended up dissolving.
And so we were like, well, thatsucks, but eating disorders,

(04:16):
body image, general mentalhealth is not going anywhere.
People need that support.
And while you know we recognizea PHP, iop is a completely
different level of care, thatsupport was still needed at an
outpatient level for people.
And so we were just like, wait,do you want to start a business
?
Should we start a business?
You know, I think about thatlike Spider-Man meme, where
there's, like you know, thethree Spider-Mans are like
pointing at each other and we'rejust like, actually, this is,

(04:41):
this is what built the practiceup.
And I remember we were sittingat my kitchen table and we were
just like, what should we nameit?
You know, we had all kinds oflogistics down and we had all
the okay, we need to you know,get this type of lawyer.
We need to get this account andlike you know we had all that.
We didn't have a name and wewere like naming different
things, I remember with a name.
And then later that week Iremember I was like in my
bathroom I love pearls, I haveactually like a pearl engagement

(05:11):
ring, like I just I love pearls.
And so I was putting on my ringand I was like pearl I don't
know why that just sounds sogood Like pearl wellness.
We wanted the word wellness inour name and all these things
and I said it and I called her.
I was like what do you think ofPearl?
And she's like Pearl what?
And I was like Pearl wellness.
And she's like I love it andlike you, just like collect, and
it was just so beautiful.
And then we were thinking later,as we were kind of thinking of

(05:32):
a business tagline.
Essentially we were like gritand to worth, because a pearl
takes so long in the sand tobuild in that grit.
And so when we think abouttherapy and developing and you
know, if you are havingstruggles with eating disorder,
disordered eating, body image,that doesn't just change over a
night.
It takes this grit from notonly you but from your team to
turn into something you know,beautiful, whatever that is for

(05:54):
you in the ways of like like apearl, and so that's again how
we got to that that name andjust like building that up, and
it kind of just went from there.
We love it so much.
We're able to do we offervirtual services, we do groups,
we also have our own podcast aswell.
But one of the things when webuild our practices, we want it
to be not just direct care but aresource to the community as
well, and so that's why we'reable to do some of the other

(06:16):
things that we've done with it.

Speaker 1 (06:17):
That community piece is so important.
I learned that more and moreand I feel like, especially
where you said this is yourpandemic, baby, the pandemic
taught us how importantcommunity really is.
I love just the process ofnaming a business, because I
changed the name of my coachingbusiness back in 2021.
And it was one of those thingswhere I'd had original name
because it had started from whenI had a photography business a

(06:40):
decade ago and that's where itkind of came from.
And I had this list on my notesapp in my phone and so it was,
like you said, where you're liketable ring light, like you just
like start throwing aroundnouns and different words and
like the list.
I saved this list because itwas just so ridiculous the
things that were on there.
But you just you have to figureout like, no, this isn't what I
want.
Nope, that's not what I want.

(07:00):
Okay, this one.
And so my coaching is calledEverwild Performance.
There's a whole like backstoryto that.
But that process because you'relike how am I identifying this
and how can people identify withthis?

Speaker 2 (07:11):
I love it.
I'll tell the story because wewere like you know.
I give that background of likean act in the wild, what a pearl
does and how it develops, andYou're like Ooh, why does this
resonate with me?

Speaker 1 (07:28):
Oh, okay, this is where it's from Exactly.

Speaker 2 (07:30):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (07:30):
I like that.
Do you do like community events, or how does that work?

Speaker 2 (07:34):
Yeah, so we have done that in the past, like we've
actually done speakingengagements in our community.
We partnered, actually, with anincredible organization called
Dancers Beyond Labels, which isthese 16 year old 17 year old,
you know, high school studentsthat basically made this
nonprofit about dancers andeating disorders and body image
and you know, kind of bring anawareness to that.

(07:55):
And I think back to what I wasdoing at 16, it was not
developing a nonprofit, but theyreached out to us once and, oh,
can you kind of partner with usand so we'll do talks for them
in their school.
And so that's been one way thatwe've been able to be a
community resource.
We also wrote a workbook, beable to be like a resource as
well and that's like a bodyimage workbook.
And then we also have done justfor other professionals.
So we've done it for doctors tokind of see what these are

(08:17):
things to look out for, likewe're not asking you to work
with eating disorders or workwith body image.
We're asking you when someonesays this in front of your
presence, that's kind of, oh,maybe you need a little bit more
support here's, you know, aresource for you.
So we love to be able to kindof just be that consultation.
And yeah, we love the community.
There's a lot of greatorganizations that we're a part
of that are kind of also havethat same, you know, mission to

(08:39):
eradicate the stigma aroundbodies and eating and things
like that.

Speaker 1 (08:43):
That's an amazing mission.
That's why Sturdy Girl exists.
Is that shifting of our energyaway from like with body image
right, it's internal.
It's the work on realizing thatwe have worth outside of just
our appearance.
And then, coming from that, Ilove that mission and that you
have gotten so involved in thecommunity, have made yourself a
resource in the medical settingof you're not asking them to

(09:04):
diagnose or treat these people,you're like, hey, no, here's an
extra resource.
So if you hear these people saycertain things that may seem
like red flags or maybe like itmight benefit for you to have
more support and moreconversations around this, here
you go.
That's wonderful.
And speaking in schools that isa goal of mine with Sturdy Girl
and with conversations aroundbuilding self-confidence and
improving body image.
I would love, love to get intomiddle schools.

(09:26):
It's kind of the age range thatI would really love to connect
with, because when kids canlearn those skills earlier,
there's a hell of a lot lessunlearning that they have to do
as adults, which is why a lot ofthe conversations on Sturdy
Girl are about is a lot of thatunlearning process.

Speaker 2 (09:43):
They're such an impressionable age when they're
teenagers.
I remember when we were doing aseries on our Instagram around
a body image.
Some of the stats that wepulled is as young as three.
Girls were worried about theirbody.

Speaker 1 (09:55):
Yeah, and it was something absurd, statistic of
percentage of girls by the ageof five that had clued into body
image.

Speaker 2 (10:01):
Yeah, and so in that, again going back to how we
wanted to be a resource, we thendid a whole series on how
parents can talk to themselves,because, again, their kids are
listening, and things like that,and so just like everyone can
be impacted and affected by itand it's, you know, just even
changing little conversations.
I mean, I do it now with myfriends and families and even,
you know, maybe people Ishouldn't, because I don't know

(10:21):
them too well.
I'll be like, oh, let's be alittle kinder to ourselves.
You don't have to earn thatfood.
I have no problem interjecting.
Sometimes I'm a little bit morespicier depending on if I know
the person.

Speaker 1 (10:29):
But definitely just kind of the subtle things in the
same way that our thoughts.

Speaker 2 (10:42):
You know, if we have negative thoughts that they
impact so much of bombardingyourself with negative messages
or telling yourself thesenegative messages, it's no
wonder that you're going to bein this state of, oh, I don't
deserve this or I shouldn't this, and you know you're in all
that judgment.
And so just even a couple ofsentences here and there, it
will eventually makes a bigdifference.

Speaker 1 (11:01):
Okay, so just to segue from here, I want to hear
your thoughts about body imageas a therapist.
Sturdy Girl really started froma place of body image
conversations.
Indirectly, sturdy Girl camefrom a conversation I had with a
great uncle where my grandmawas trying to show him videos of
me powerlifting and she forcedhim to watch these videos.

(11:21):
I could shove them in his faceand he's looking across the
table at me and he's like well,aren't you just a sturdy girl?
And my reaction initially waslike take offense, because you
know he's actually disgusted.
But instead I was like you'reright, thank you.
And that extrapolated intotelling the story on social
media, which turned into heyguys, we should make some shirts
.
Which turned into sellingalmost 200 shirts in two weeks,

(11:44):
which is absurd.
Like I'm not an influencer byany means and that's just.
It resonated with people enough.
And then, seeing these shirtsin the wild and having every
person that I had a conversationwith that I saw wearing these
shirts came back to somethingabout resilience, something
about body image, somethingabout their confidence in
themselves, and I was likethere's more here.
My husband has a background inadvertising and he spent the

(12:05):
next six months like are wedoing this?
Are we making some of this Likeit's worth talking about?
So working with someone on bodyimage, like there's so much
conversation on social media andin the media about body
positivity or loving ourselves,is that the end goal?
The floor is yours.
Tell me all the things.

Speaker 2 (12:22):
Many people may not like me, but that's not the end
goal.
The end goal is being able toaccept what comes and not have
to submit to it or feel like youhave to change or adapt
yourself.
Right, and so what I mean bythat is we're human.
We can't control every thoughtthat comes into our mind.
Right, we're gonna havenegative body image thoughts.

(12:42):
You're gonna get ready for adinner and you're gonna be like
I don't feel good in what I'mwearing.
That's not bad.
It's what you do with thatthought that's going to matter.
Right, like, let's walk throughthat.
Right, using this dinner, thisgetting ready for a dinner.
You're getting ready.
You're having all thesenegative thoughts.
You have a couple of optionsyou can turn about.

(13:03):
You can call someone there'sall these different things that
you can do or you can choose notto go.
And when you choose not to go,you're now giving power to that
negative thought, because you'reallowing that thought to then
dictate the rest of whateverthat night was going to look
like for you.
Sure, you might go and you mightnot be comfortable, but being
able to be present and justacknowledging like, hey, this

(13:25):
thought's here and I don't haveto do anything with it.
I think that's just really whatit comes down to.
And then we also want to thinkabout with body image.
There's really four aspects ofit.
There's our perceptual bodyimage, and this is the way you
see your body.
Then there's the affective bodyimage, the way you feel about
it.
There's the cognitive how youthink about your body.
And then there's also thatbehavioral, which is the
behaviors that you engage in asa result of your body.

(13:47):
And so when you're thinkingabout those four different
aspects, you can kind of thinkabout like, what kind of thought
am I having right now?
Is this a perceptual thought?
Is this a behavioral thought?
Am I thinking that I need to goto the gym to change X, y and Z
?
Okay, that to do that, that isnot going to be sustainable for
however long you think it'sgoing to be.
It won't.
You're going to slowly snowballinto maybe more behaviors or
even some disordered eating.

(14:08):
There's so many things withthat.
And so just really alsoidentifying what type of body
image thought am I having rightnow, or rather, what type of
body image am I having?
Because the thought one is thecognitive body image.
I think that's just reallyimportant, and body image is a
spectrum.
You're going to wake up one dayfeeling great.
You're like I like this outfit,I like how I did my hair, I
like accessories you have on.
You're walking into the office,you pass some big glass mirror

(14:30):
and you're like, oh gosh, Idon't like how I look.
But that's one split seconddoes not need to determine the
rest of your day, because, forall you know, you may not even
think about your body again thatday, and that's okay too.
You don't have to always bethinking about it.
It can just be like, okay, Iexist, your body's your home.
You know what are you doing inyour home.
That's what really matters.
And how are you taking care ofthat?

Speaker 1 (14:50):
I 100% agree.
It's really interesting to me Iget stuck on just how much body
positivity is talked about andhow much it's oh, it's about
body love and loving yourselvesand all of that love and loving
yourselves and all of that.
I think that for some people,that is maybe where they want to
work towards, but so often theysee that and they want that.
But we're starting in a placeof like they hate themselves,

(15:12):
there's nothing they like aboutthemselves, and so when you talk
about the different parts ofbody image, there's first that
even building awareness aroundour thoughts, Because so many
people don't take the time tohear their thoughts, if that
makes sense.
Right To tune into wow, I trashtalk myself when I look in the
mirror every time.
That's insane.
I never noticed that before.

(15:32):
No wonder I feel like crap whenI get dressed in the morning.
Oh, every time that I go and dothis thing, I have this dinner
tonight and I have all thisanxiety around what I'm wearing,
because every time I getdressed, this is what I say to
myself.
When we start paying attentionto those thoughts and that
awareness is like such a hugeskill in this whole process.

Speaker 2 (15:50):
Yeah, because otherwise, going back to what
you said, right, like there aresome people who maybe do achieve
body positivity, bodyacceptance, body love, finish
that sentence however you wantand that, again, is
individualized to that person.
That's what this comes down tois that it's going to look
different for every singleperson, and it's also not only
is it going to look differentfor every single person, it's
going to look different for eachperson at different points of
their life.

Speaker 1 (16:10):
Because no matter how healthy of a relationship we
have with ourselves.
So, however you want toidentify that level of body
image, what it comes down to isour relationship with ourselves
and how we relate to our body.
You know it's all those pieces.
We're always going to havethose negative thoughts come up.
Like you said, no matter howmuch work we've done.
There's resilience that comesinto play.
And then there's also what weend up relating a lot to on the

(16:33):
podcast is body imageflexibility.
So where you were talking aboutit's how you respond to those
thoughts.
It's the resilience piece ofhow do I respond in the face of
these negative thoughts, thesenegative situations, people
saying things right, thereaction to the thoughts that
come up when you're like, ohshit, that person wore that
outfit way better than me.
What was I thinking?

(16:54):
You know, where are we going totake that?
How do we respond?

Speaker 2 (16:59):
Yeah, and what do you do with that?
And yeah, absolutely.
I mean, it really is about like, what are the actions that
you're taking?
How are you letting it impactbehaviors and experiences?
You know, I think about so manyindividuals that I see when I'm
working with them is, you knowI'll be like, oh, how is so
wrapped up in these not truthfulthoughts?
They're all lies, but theyweren't even able to experience

(17:22):
something.
And so I love, when I work witha client, that that's something
that they tell me early on inthe work they were doing.
And then you know, kind ofthroughout the year or the years
, they're finally going to anevent and they're like I really
enjoyed it.
You know they can tell me aboutthe event and not about how
they were experiencing bodyimage in that moment, and I
think that's the thing is likeprogress is going to look
different for every singleperson of what that looks like
too.

Speaker 1 (17:42):
Absolutely.
So I'm going to relate this toa personal experience, just real
quick, just thinking about thiscontinual work piece of it and
events, that kind of thing.
So in the last few months,because of all the things going
on in my world, movement andexercise, like I am generally a
person I love to run and I loveto lift, they are things that
bring me joy, that reinforceself-efficacy, like they are my

(18:04):
jam, and they have taken abackseat to all the other things
going on and it has been veryhard to accept that.
That is just the season whereI'll set goals for myself of 20
minutes of movement a day.
So we walk the dogs or we havea garage gym, so I'll hop out
and like work with somedumbbells a little bit.
But my body composition haschanged and I was recently in my

(18:25):
sister's wedding.
We wore like spaghetti strapdresses with some cleavage and
half back showing, you know, andmy initial thought when I got
this dress was like my arms havelost all of their muscle tone,
right.
And you're like what am Imaking this mean about myself?
Oh my gosh.
But that spiral was like readyto start.
It was there and I was like youhave arms that are functional.
Are we worried about how theylook?

(18:46):
Really, is this a concern?
They're functional.
You are wearing this dress tosupport your sister's day and it
was such an interesting like tocatch that spiral and, like it
started, it really did of like,oh, you're going to be seeing
people you haven't seen inforever, your ex-boyfriend's
going to be there, like all ofthese things.
What are you going to do withthat?
And so fast forward to theevent itself.
I did not care an ounce aboutmy body.

(19:10):
It was like thosepre-conversations to have had
with myself of catching myselfin that, asking what I'm making
it mean, being thankful for thisfunctionality piece and then
getting dressed.
That day I spent three hours onthe dance floor with my friends
and I got home that night and Iwas like I didn't think about
the appearance of my arms at all.

Speaker 2 (19:27):
Yeah, and I think, the more that you're able to
catch, like you said, it's aboutthat awareness of knowing okay,
when is this spiral happening?
I think so often when peoplearen't aware of that, they've
already spiraled before they caneven be like wait, what
happened here?
So I think that's beautiful,that you were able to just kind
of catch that in that moment andjust be like no, actually this
does not matter.
It's not going to matter to mein 10 years, it's not going to
matter to me in 15.
It's not going to matter to meon that day, like it just isn a

(19:49):
little boost.

Speaker 1 (19:49):
But also, I am very naturally pale skinned and these
dresses were celery green and Ilooked like a Victorian sick
person without it.
So I was like, okay, we need alittle boost, right.
And that was just like thatfeel good piece.

Speaker 2 (20:08):
And you know, that brings up a topic that I think
is sometimes not discussed oftenis, if you do decide to wear
makeup, if you decide to get aspray tan, if you decide to do
any type of body modification,what's the intention behind it?
Right, what is the intention?
I'll be the first to admit thatI would absolutely get a nose
job, and it has literallynothing to do about my body.
It's just like something that Ithink I would want to do.

(20:28):
Right, and it's not about, oh,I don't like myself or it's.
You know, it's maybe a littlebit of an insecurity, but that
doesn't mean I'm going to changemy whole life.
If I can't get one, I can't getone.
But I think it's really aboutwhat's my intentionality behind
this, of doing this in the sameway of going.
You know, when you're talkingabout, like, working out being
very much like a mental healththing, and for listeners it's
like why are you working out?
Are you dreading going?
Are you hating what you'redoing there?

(20:49):
Are you timing yourself?
Is it about numbers?
If it's that, it's not going tobe beneficial for you.
It's really about like my bodycan do this.
I like this.
Also, like your body may change.
It may not change, but it'sabout like are you actively
going to the gym to change yourbody or is your body just
naturally changing becauseyou're just doing more movement
in your life?
And if you can't do a day, areyou OK with that?

Speaker 1 (21:11):
Yes, that's so huge.
I struggled with that for along time.
Actually.
It's hard.
That was also such a period oftime of earn your shower, no
days off, never miss a Monday.
That was so prevalent.
I experienced massive runningburnout because of that, because
I spent I don't know how manyyears running six days a week

(21:32):
and following these trainingplans.
That were insane.
And then you burn out becauseyou're not doing it for the
right reasons and you're nottaking care of yourself and yeah
, Exactly.

Speaker 2 (21:41):
And you have all these different people, whether
it's a provider or other people,telling you what you should be
doing.
Wait, what do I want to bedoing?
What am I doing?
And the thing that goes back toyou know, taking care of our
body that's part of body imageis taking care of it and putting
it through duress and stressthrough intense exercise.
If you're not in a sport orsomething like that is expected
of you, and even then I thinkthat's another conversation I

(22:03):
can have you know you shouldn'tbe putting your body through
that Like you should be doingthings because like you want,
want to, and then it's mindfulto you.
And again, if you have to missa couple of days, you should be
OK with that, and that's also abig thing that comes up within
body image and exercise.

Speaker 1 (22:18):
OK, I want to talk self-care, but first just
because you touched on that alittle bit, but first, for
someone who's working on bodyimage, we talked about that
awareness.
We talk about, I'm going to say, challenging your thoughts or a
little bit what you said at thevery beginning, like, when
those thoughts come up, ofasking yourself like, are these
true?
And being able to challenge,like you even changed just a
couple of your thoughts.
Are there any other things thatyou could give for people that

(22:38):
are actively like you know whatI want?
To work on this in a way thatis going to improve my
relationship with self and let'shelp my body image get better.

Speaker 2 (22:50):
I would say one of the biggest things is
identifying what's influencingyour body image.
Get better.
I would say one of the biggestthings is identifying what's
influencing your body image,right, is it the gym?
Is it family members?
Is it social media?
What is it that you canreplenish in a healthy way that
is influencing some of thosethoughts?
And I think that's one of thefirst things, which, again, is
that awareness and bringing thatawareness.
Some other, you know tips wouldbe not being so hard on
yourself if you do have a badbody image day, because again it

(23:11):
is going to happen, but it'swhat you do with it.
Reaching out to a friend, Ithink accountability is a huge
part of being able to heal fromsomething.
It's just letting someone knowlike, hey, I'm struggling with
this.
I'm not asking that you doanything and I might just text
you one day or call you and saylike, hey, I'm having a really
bad body image day and I think,knowing that there's someone
that you can reach out to andit's not just in your head,
because that's the thing right,all the thoughts that you're

(23:31):
having, they're not out loud,they're all in your head.
So if you can say something outloud and it's like just give it
.
I don't want to say give a nameto it or give a voice to it,
but just get it out.
Essentially, just think thatyou're just like screaming it,
whatever it is.
That's to see a therapist thatspecializes in body image and
doing that alongside of someonethat can guide you with, because
there might be, you know, somethings that are going to come up

(23:53):
that are really uncomfortable,really hard, and you know you
don't have to do that alone.
So I would say those are some,some tips and really just like,
do have bad body image before anevent is then asking yourself
after the event like what did Ienjoy about?
It?
Objectively has nothing to dowith your body.
Name the people that were there, write it down.
Write down some of the colorsthat you saw while you were
there.
Write down the smells.
You know we're thinking aboutgrounding in the five senses.

(24:14):
Just jot that down after anevent of just like anything
outside of body image, and Ithink that can be really helpful
to give yourself a reminder.
Wait, these are some thingsthat happen that has nothing to
do with my body and how I feltabout it no-transcript is Well,

(24:57):
I very much could have, becausethose didn't actually affect
anything beyond inside my head.
You're still who you are.
You're still, you know thatthat teacher, that lawyer, that
doctor, that mother, that sister, that brother, like, you're all
of those things.
It does not matter what youlook like or how.
Your body, again, your body isyour home.
All of those things that youare is a part of that home.

Speaker 1 (25:16):
Yep, and I like to think about it too of figuring
out how to make your home a safeplace to be.

Speaker 2 (25:21):
I think that goes back to like what I was saying
like what influence is thatnative body image?
What do you need to kind ofdeclutter so that you can
replenish with things that aregoing to help you flourish?
And again, it's not going tohappen overnight, it's going to
be a slow process, but if youcan find just one thing, that's
like wait, this actually doesimpact my body image a lot.

Speaker 1 (25:38):
I think about it in terms, too, of how did your body
image story get written?
Because there's a lot of thepast influences too of I'm a kid
of the 90s, so when you thinkabout the messages that we got
from the media of what women'sbodies were supposed to look
like and how much that impactedit, how did your parents speak
about their bodies growing up,or your siblings or the people

(25:59):
you went to school with, rightand see okay, can I identify
maybe where some of my beliefshave come from as well?
And then how does that comeinto present day?
What is continuing this belief?
My mom struggled with anorexiafor probably close to 20 years,
and that's what I was raisedaround, and there was a
conversation that she and I hadat some point where she's like I
feel like that maybe you heldthis against me for a long time

(26:22):
and I said, no, it wasrecognizing in my adult life how
much that impacted myrelationship with food, how much
that impacted my relationshipwith my body, because I am not
built like my mom.
I have a very different bodytype, naturally, and so it was
such a struggle when I wouldhear those things like I have to
weigh myself three times a day.
I can't eat that because Ican't gain any more weight.

(26:43):
And so, having those influenceswhen you're this young,
impressionable kid, there was alot that I had to unpack from
that with a therapist this wasall like therapy, thank you, but
there's a lot there.
There's a lot there tounderstanding that you may not
even be aware of, and I thinkthat was for me.
I didn't realize half of thebeliefs that I carried with me
about, about food, about my body, about how I dressed, about how

(27:03):
I carried myself.
It all came back to thoseinfluences growing up.

Speaker 2 (27:07):
Yeah, because it was normalized.
That's all you knew.
And so, yeah, absolutely,you're going to continue that
until it's like, wait until,whether you call it out.
Someone calls it out, likemaybe this isn't the best for
you, and again it goes back tofor you, like everyone is is
different.
Everyone's body type isdifferent, everyone's genetic
makeup is different.
Everyone's just like a bill.
Like everything is so different.
There is not a one size fitsall with anything.

Speaker 1 (27:28):
This is a total aside , but do you utilize journal
prompts at all with clients orwith work on body image?

Speaker 2 (27:34):
Yeah, I do and like one that I really like is who do
you admire that has a healthyrelationship with body and
what's one thing that you wouldlike to take for yourself with
that?
Again, because we don't wantanyone to be like, oh I have to
do exactly what everyone, whatthat person is doing that I
admire.
But what is one thing that youthink that you could maybe try?
So I like that one?
I mean, I think that can bejust really helpful, just free
flowing and just like, kind ofjust sentence completion of just

(27:56):
like my body is.
I think one thing that I reallylike is what are current
behaviors or thoughts that Ihave about my body that I want
to change.
I think that can be reallyhelpful.
It's like as a starting point,because it can be really
overwhelming to be like allright.

Speaker 1 (28:09):
I'm gonna work on body image.
Now what?

Speaker 2 (28:10):
There's so many things you can sell.
It's like, okay, just identifylike an unbulleted list, like
three things that you just wantto see different with yourself.
You know that can be an emotionthat you have about your body.
That can be, you know, athought that you have about your
body.
That can be an action.
There's so many differentthings that you can do with that
Okay.

Speaker 1 (28:26):
Question how do you feel about affirmations?

Speaker 2 (28:29):
I think it goes back to what is the intention of the
affirmation, right?
Some people it doesn't work,and I think that also goes back
to that.
Right, it's not a one size fitsall.
I have clients where I'm like,let's try some affirmations, we
try it.
I'm like that is not going towork for you.
We need to do something moreactionable, something that you,
you know, really just depends.
But I do think it does go back,though, to also like the more
that you're more positive withyourself.

(28:50):
Whatever that is, it doesn'thave to even be in an
affirmation, it can justliterally just be like be kind
to yourself.
You can just tell yourself,give yourself permission to do
like.
It doesn't have to be.
But I think it's just aboutchanging that, that thought
process.
I think affirmations can begreat, but it can't just be the
only thing that that helps.
You have to also have someactions around it too.
I did some, some affirmationswith with a client today and I

(29:10):
was like okay, so you wrote thatI am strong.
All right, what do you want todo with that?
Knowing that you are strong,how can you be strong today in
your recovery?
And then, from there we wereable to pull?
Oh wait, I'm strong in the factthat I'm going to groups.
I'm strong in the fact that youknow I can do X, y and Z.
I think it doesn't just stop at, like the affirmation, it's
what can you pull from thataffirmation?

(29:31):
You just identify that you'recapable, capable of what You're
capable of recovery.
Okay, you're capable ofdecreasing this behavior.
You just identified you'recreative.
That's awesome.
How can you be creative in this, in this healing journey?
What does that look like?
So I think it's affirmationscan be helpful, but it's not a
one and done, it's not a onesize fits all.

Speaker 1 (29:48):
I kind of smirked when I asked that.
Just because, again, we talkabout body positivity and how it
has gotten taken over on socialmedia and turned into something
totally different from whatactual body positivity research
is right, and then we talk aboutaffirmations and research on
affirmations is yes, it can work, like you're saying, it's not a
one size fits all, but it hasto start with something that you

(30:09):
believe, or something close toa belief, versus like you're
looking in the mirror and you'retelling yourself that you're
fat and ugly and you hateyourself, but then you want to
write this affirmation that saysI'm a gorgeous, bold and
confident person.

Speaker 2 (30:21):
Yeah, which is very all or nothing, which is a very
unhealthy thinking.

Speaker 1 (30:25):
But there's so much of that of people that are like,
oh, I just started like sayingaffirmations to myself in the
mirror and I'm telling myselfall of these things it has to
start from a place of belief andit has to start from a place,
like you said, of theapplication piece, and I was
thinking too, and this wassomething that just occurred to
me.
I was it's been like two weeksago.
I was reading a paper onaffirmations as a practice.

(30:46):
It led me back to just thinkingabout as thoughts come up,
letting them go and not havingto identify with them, and that
piece part of affirmationspractice is you're trying to
bring more of the thoughts thatyou want to have into your brain
with those.
So I love that actionable piecethat you're talking about,
because that's something I'venever considered of like.
Okay, if I believe that I'mstrong, am I talking about?

(31:08):
How am I saying I'm strong?
What am I going to do aboutthat?
I really that's wonderful Ofcourse.

Speaker 2 (31:13):
I think it's a great exercise to do Like again,
because you can say that and youknow there's people are like,
oh, you just say until youbelieve it.
And it's like you can't believesomething unless there's
something actionable with it.

Speaker 1 (31:22):
People talk about the concept of manifestation and
trying to bring things intoreality and you're like, yeah,
but there's action, yeah.

Speaker 2 (31:30):
And you may not even know that you're doing it,
though, too, there is maybe apiece of that where like, yeah,
manifestation, but like, whathave you done?
What have you changed aboutyour mindset?
You know who are you hangingout with.
There are things that you'vedone inadvertently that has led
to that intention for you, youknow.
Just going back to that, too,is another thing when I'm
working with clients is what'sthe intention with your body
image?
Right, when we put goals, we'rethen setting like a deadline of

(31:53):
this has to be done.
If I don't meet this, then youget into that spiral of oh, I
didn't meet it, I'm not goodenough, I feel defeated.
But if you can set an intentionan intention is flexible you
can always change that intention.
All right, so you didn't hitthat thing that you wanted to
hit with your body, with, youknow, improving body image in
three months.
That was just the intention.
Right, let's just bump it outthree more months.
That's totally fine.
And I think when we take awaylike a resolution or a goal and

(32:15):
I can talk again about that allday, about the difference
between goals, resolution andintentions- Do you want to do
like a New Year's episode in acouple of months?

Speaker 1 (32:22):
Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (32:22):
Oh my gosh, I love that stuff.
You really set that, that toneof wait.
Like I can do this.
It doesn't have to be an all ornothing.
I think so many people getstuck in that all or nothing and
in the moment that it doesn'twork, people just stop, it's
okay.
But what about that didn't work?
What was one of the barriers?
You know, maybe set somethingso unrealistic it wasn't going
to be be set.

Speaker 1 (32:41):
I think that that's really worthwhile because that
also speaks to the skill ofreevaluating, readjusting,
pivoting, whatever you want tocall that, because you're
talking about setting goalsversus intentions.
I still talk to clients aboutgoals, but goals from a more
self-compassionate standpoint,of understanding that progress
takes time, and the skill ofbeing able to set benchmarks

(33:04):
within those goals and smallerobjectives, to check in with
yourself, to say is this plan ofaction to reach this goal
working?
What can we change?
What isn't going well?
Do we need to pivot?
Do we need to adjust the goal?
And like coming back to thatbecause it's so interesting
going to the all or nothingthinking it's so easy.
We set that goal, we've got tochase it until it's done, and I

(33:25):
was that person for a very, verylong time and still notice
those tendencies.

Speaker 2 (33:29):
Even when you can learn to appreciate that thought
process, it's a hard thing tounlearn it is One of those
things like when we do that andwe go full force into one goal
or a couple of goals, we'remissing out on all the
experience getting there.
We're missing out on so manyother things that maybe need to
be addressed.
You know that's part of it isthat you really have to take
that pause.
It is okay to pause and it'sokay to go back to that drawing

(33:52):
board and be like wait you knowwhat.

Speaker 1 (33:53):
Actually, I don't even want that.
That's another thing Againwhose intention is it?

Speaker 2 (33:56):
Is it yours or is it this expectation that you feel
like you should have?
And it's also the same thing,going back to what your question
about body positivity, bodylove, and that's okay.
What?

Speaker 1 (34:03):
is it that you?

Speaker 2 (34:15):
want, and I think that's another thing.
When you're exploring bodyimage or trying to figure out,
what does that look like?
Exploring like wait, what is itthat I truly want?
Is this a societal expectationthat you feel like you should
have?

Speaker 1 (34:26):
Okay.
So that intentionality piece isso huge.
This is a conversation to behad of do I want this thing
because I want it, or is itbecause this is what someone
else said?
What society has said?
What do I actually want, like,what's the intention behind this
?
It's interesting to me howthere are certain conversations

(34:46):
that I will have on repeat, andthis is one of them right now is
just that piece of how do Ifigure out what I want.
Sometimes you have to startwith what you don't want and the
intentionality behind oh shoot,this was not actually a goal
for me.
This was to prove this aboutmyself.
Well, what's another way we canwork towards that?
I really enjoy running, just forall kinds of reasons and,

(35:09):
honestly, it started out to makemy body smaller, not going to
lie.
That was where the obsessionstarted and then growing from
there and through experiences, Istarted chasing marathons and a
sub four hour marathon becauseI wanted to be seen as a good
runner or a fast runner, and Iran a handful of road marathons
chasing that goal.
I wanted to Boston qualify.
And then, right about the timeof running burnout was that

(35:32):
realization of I don't care.
I actually don't care aboutrunning a sub eight minute mile
for a marathon.
That has no interest to me orwho I want to be or my goals.
I really love trail running andputzing along and watching the
trees and tripping over treeroots and having a grand time

(35:52):
with dirt underneath my feet.
That is something that I love.
It is not pushing myself to seehow far and fast I can go for
26.2 miles.
That's not a goal and it wasbecause I was so caught up in
all the other runners that I wasassociating with.
I was down the rabbit hole ofStrava and comparison and all of
those things.

Speaker 2 (36:11):
I think that's beautiful to be able to find
that you know, to be able to belike wait, I can just do this
with friends.
I can just do this because Iwant to and not because I'm
feeling like I have, like yousaid to me, a certain number.

Speaker 1 (36:21):
It's so interesting because, like, I'm saying this
and I've got conviction andfeeling behind it, but there's
still that was six years agothere is still a part of my
brain that I'm like, oh my God,someone listening to this might
be like well then, how are you arun coach If you don't care
about pace?
Are you going to care about meand my pace?
And it's such an interesting.
It's still there, Even workingthrough that.
It's still a piece of thatwhere I'm like, yeah, absolutely
.

Speaker 2 (36:52):
I can help people run faster.
I know how I't necessarily haveto be consumed by it and I
think that's part of it, and thesame thing with body image,
right, like you, don't have tobe consumed by it.

Speaker 1 (36:59):
And I think that's the beautiful thing about
working on body image is, withthe body image flexibility piece
Like I said we've hadconversations on the podcast
about before is you get to apoint where the goal isn't to be
like, oh I love my body so much, I like look in the mirror and
I can tell myself how beautifulI am, or like this effervescent,
big, encompassing thing.

(37:19):
A lot of times, a healthy bodyimage is not thinking about your
body as much and not spendingas much energy on well, how
might this appear to otherpeople?
How do I look in this?
How does this?
Do I have big enough arms orlegs or whatever Like, instead
of spending that energy on beingpresent, on those relationships
and connections and thosethings that are more important.

Speaker 2 (37:37):
That's how it's measured.

Speaker 1 (37:38):
Agreed.
Okay, my own curiosityperspective, not necessarily for
the podcast.
Is there any type of therapythat you have found to be most
beneficial when you are coaching, when you're in sessions with
clients on body image orimproving their relationship
with themselves?
Is there any modality?

Speaker 2 (37:53):
Not necessarily.
It really just depends on,again, like I approach therapy,
in the way I approach manythings in life, which is no one
size fits all.
I definitely have differentspecialties that I can pull from
, but it's really about like,what does that person need in
that moment?
Right, when I'm thinking aboutsomeone who has a bunch of
negative body image thoughts,I'm like, okay, we can do some
cognitive behavioral therapy.
You really need some reframe.
You need to really see howthat's impacting behaviors.

(38:14):
If I have someone that's justso distressed every time they
have to get ready for whateverit is, let's do some grounding.
That's going to be ourdialectical behavior therapy.
That's what we're going to do.
You know, I have individualsthat are kind of maybe been in
this journey for a while andthey're like, I just kind of
need to reground, and so we'regoing to look at acceptance
therapy of like values.
What are the values that youhave and how is your negative

(38:35):
body image dishonoring the valuethat you want for yourself and
that you have for yourself?
And so really, it just dependson where someone's at in their
journey.
I also have done like exposuretherapy.
Well, you know, I am a virtualpractice, but I'll have my
client FaceTime me.
They're going to the store,we're doing a shopping exposure
together.
I'll have clients who will do amere exposure assignment where

(38:55):
they have to kind of like, lookat their body, talk about it
objectively.
I don't typically do that withpeople that are new to exploring
their body image because it canbe a really I don't want to say
triggering, but it can be avery emotional experience.
It can be a very distractingexperience If you're not in a
place to know.
Okay, if I do get kind of moredysregulated, what do I need to
do?
You know I do worksheets withpeople, journal prompts.
You know there's a bunch ofdifferent modalities and

(39:18):
different techniques andinterventions, but it really is
just about what someone wantsand also recognizing that we
might try 400 different ones,that 401 is the one that's going
to work.

Speaker 1 (39:25):
And sometimes I feel like, too, it's.
It's trying things more thanonce, too, and having that
conversation with clients aswell.
I want to be inside your brain.
Your wealth of knowledge isjust really impressive.
I am most familiar with likeACT, with acceptance and
commitment therapy as it relatesto like body image research.
So, anyways, okay, with bodyimage one piece and we touched

(39:45):
on this way back in thebeginning of the conversation.
We talked about like takingcare of ourselves.
I would really love to talk toyou a little bit about self-care
, because I feel like the termgets such a bad rap of bubble
baths and face masks andmassages and nail appointments
and whatever else.
I wish listeners could see myface right now, but yes, these
are the things that we're likeoh yeah, yeah, that's self-care.

(40:06):
Oh, I know, I'll take it.
Yeah, sure yeah, when that'sself-care oh, I know, I'll take
it.
Yeah, sure, yeah, when that'snot really what it is.
I'm saying that with my nailsdone for my sister's wedding and
I'm I still am like oh, thiswas really fun.

Speaker 2 (40:19):
That goes again.
There's options.
It doesn't just have to be aone size fits all.
There's so many differentthings.
I love talking about self-care.
I actually do a self-care,continuing education for
different providers on how totake care of yourself, not just
as a provider, but what thatactually looks like.
And self-care is whatreplenishes you, what restores
you and what makes you happy.
That is what self-care is.
If you're dreading having to godo your self-care, that's not

(40:40):
self-care.
If you're doing self-carebecause someone told you like,
hey, go get your nails done orgo have a spa day, that's not
self-care.
Spa day is great.
I just had one the other day.
I loved it.
But I'll be honest, I was notrelaxed in that spa day because
I kept thinking, oh my gosh, I'mwaiting for this email to come
through and that was notself-care for me.
Self-care is really about beingintentional with your time and
you know what.
It doesn't have to be alone.

(41:01):
If your self-care is going outwith friends and having a dinner
, that is self-care.
You do not have to do that byyourself.
I think that's what a lot ofpeople think is that they have
to be isolated.
They have to be like okay, I'mtaking my self-care hour.
You can do that.
I think that works for somepeople, but for some people it's
not.
My self-care personally isfootball.
I absolutely love football.
I love watching football.
I love playing football.
And I'll go on a really shorttangent about how I develop my

(41:24):
self-care.
Back in grad school, springsemester, I'm sitting at my
internship and I get an emailfrom my grad school supervisor.
It's like hey, before classstart, I'd love to talk to you.
No one wants that email from agrad school supervisor.
No one wants that.
I was like, oh my gosh, likewhat happened?
Like you know, I'm likethinking every worst case
scenario because anxiety.
And I go and sit across from herand she was so intentional with

(41:45):
the conversation.
She goes how are you doing?
And I was like oh fine,everything's.
You know, things are great.
And she's like I don't believeyou.
And I'm like well, that'sreally bold of you to say you're
just my supervisor at school.
And she's like you're differentthan than fall semester.
And I'm like okay, and she'slike what was different for you
in the fall than than now?

(42:05):
And I was like we're sitting.
You know there had been lifeevents that had happened, but
nothing.
That was like, yes, that's whatit had to be, you know.
And we're sitting in there andthen she finally goes.
She goes, what do you do forself care?
And I didn't have an answer.
And she's like, okay, whatwould you do in the fall
semester that you really lookedforward to or enjoyed?

(42:26):
And I was like Dr Maslow, I wasplaying with my fantasy league
and stuff.
And she goes that that there,that's your self-care.
And to this day it isabsolutely my self-care.
Like I know the shift thathappens.
I've now developed a betterspring and summer self-care now
that I know.
But it was somebody being like,hey, what shifted between your
fall and spring semester schoolin my mid 20s for me to be like,

(42:49):
wait, that is what brings meself-care to the.
I've changed flights to watchfootball games.
I had football playing at mywedding I mean I joke with my
sister who's getting marriednext October and I'm like that's
a Saturday.

Speaker 1 (43:00):
What time is that wedding on Saturday?

Speaker 2 (43:02):
You know football beyond, so, like I, love it, but
it's about finding what bringsyou joy, and that's really what
it comes down to.
I have other things that bringme joy, but I know my self-care
peak is what.
I can just sit and watch acouple of games, and again that
could, for some people can bewatching a show, that can be
cooking, that can be spendingtime with people, and again, I
could talk about self-careforever too.
It's building it into yourroutine.

(43:24):
You can't just do self-carewhen all of a sudden you're like
, oh my God, I need self-care.
You need to build that intoyour practice every single week,
whatever that looks like.

Speaker 1 (43:34):
Preventative maintenance.

Speaker 2 (43:36):
Yes, preventative self-care, I love it.
There's so, so many things thatbuilding a habit, but that's
really what self-care is.
It's what's replenishes you,what restores you and what
brings you joy.

Speaker 1 (43:57):
I need another R word instead of joy and happy, just
so I can have you know the threeR's to replenish and something
Like rejuvenate.
Almost yeah, I'll think on it.
This makes me think about.
There is a book called Playthat is about research on the
importance of play, especiallyas adults, and that's one of
those things where they're likeyour form of play is what you
enjoy.
It's not saying you need todance in your kitchen or go
slide down a slide at aplayground, like as we think of
traditional methods of play.
It is what is helping you bepresent in the moment and

(44:19):
something you enjoy.
That helps nourish andreplenish you.
Like.
That's exactly what play is.
One of the examples I use islike.
We tend to give adults who playvideo games a bad rap.
Oh, you're wasting time, likeyou should be.
Exactly, yes, wasting time.
And it's just so interesting tome because the way that the
whole book is like here are someideas for play.
Here's what the research saysabout play.
It is so important to our healthand well-being.

(44:41):
And so now, when you're like no, no, like this is also how we
define self-care, I'm like evenmore so.
It gives such a differentperspective for people Another
way to, and I'd love to hearyour thoughts on this.
When I've talked aboutself-care in the past and with
clients, we talk about sometimesthat self-care and maybe this
falls more under likeself-compassion too of holding
ourselves accountable for takingcare of ourselves and our

(45:04):
beings, so we were like if itdoesn't bring you joy, it's not
self-care.
But I like to think in terms of.
I've had a number ofconversations recently with moms
and they tend to put all oftheir needs on the back burner.
One of those things isscheduling your regular doctor
visit, scheduling your regulardental visit, things that take
care of you and your long-termhealth and well-being, and
holding yourself accountable totaking care of you.

(45:26):
Would you consider those thingsself-care or is that different?

Speaker 2 (45:35):
Yeah, I, absolutely.
I do to an extent, though right, like I'm not sure.
Many people like to sit on thephone waiting for a receptionist
to be like yes, we have anappointment for you.
I think it's about like knowingthat.
I think what it is is that whenyou can take care of yourself,
you can then engage in thatself-care.
It's a piece of the puzzle.
Again, I can't speak foreveryone.
Personally, I don't thinkdoctor appointments self care,
but for some people it might be.
That might be that moment wherethey get to talk about
themselves.

(45:55):
They get to be like, hey, thisis what's going on.
I feel good after I went andsaw whatever provider.
I needed to see, and that can beyou know self care, but also
recognizing that could also justbe for somebody a piece of that
to be able to fully go andengage in whatever their
self-care is.

Speaker 1 (46:08):
For sure, and just think of that both and piece of.
I love talking aboutself-compassion when it comes to
the coaching I do with runnersand people who strength train
and building their schedules andtime management.
All of that is part of thatself-compassion piece is
recognizing, like, if you'resuper tired from the day are we
having the conversation of, isthe self-compassionate thing to

(46:29):
skip the workout and go to bedearly?
Is a self-compassionate thingto say no?
I have had this conversationwith myself for three weeks and
I have let myself just go to bedearly, but what happens is I
read a book for two hours.
Instead, I am going to go givemy, I'm going to set a timer for
20 minutes, and theself-compassionate thing is to
hold myself accountable to getsome in, because I know this
helps me feel better, like towork towards these goals that

(46:52):
I've set for myself or thesethings, and like it's such an
interesting piece because Ithink that a lot of times,
compassion for people is like oh, that just means it's a free
for all.
I'm off the hook.

Speaker 2 (47:01):
It's a catch all it's the same way, right when people
are like oh, self-care isselfish, it's not.
It's actually you're doingyourself and others a disservice
when you do not take care ofyourself.

Speaker 1 (47:09):
If you haven't learned how to take care of you,
it's hard to take care ofothers, making sure that those
needs are met, or learning whatthose needs are like for you.
You're like, my needs arefootball and it's having that
time for you for the things thatyou enjoy, and that's something
so often that I, especially inthis recent, just insane season,
is recognizing.
Have I done anything for me?
I'm having, like, all thesefamily things going, I've taken

(47:31):
care of mom and I'm taking careof this and I'm taking care of
all these other pieces.
Well, have I done something formyself at all?
Because that is where thosefeelings beginning, feelings of
burnout, came from.
Okay, like relating it back.

Speaker 2 (47:43):
And just recognizing, like, in what life area can you
instill self-care?
Right?
There's financial self-care,there's environmental self-care.
There's so many differentproponents and it goes back to
the way I was talking about bodyimage, about, like, identifying
what's one thing that you canjust start focusing on, start
focusing on just one of thoseaspects.
You can't do it all at one time, but the more that you can do
with that one aspect say, it isfor you financial self-care

(48:06):
right, and you're taking care ofyourself financially, whatever
that looks like for you, debt,job savings, you know, whatever
that looks like.
Okay, you've now been able to dothat.
You have the space and energyto now focus on the self-care
that you want to do around yourwork.
Okay, what about your job?
Is it that you need to put morefocus on self-care?
Cause it's all tied together.
Self-care is.
It is time consuming, but thattime is well spent.

(48:28):
I think that's the thing is,people are like, oh, I don't
have the time.
Okay, you say you don't havethe time, and what are you
spending time on?
That is not replenishing, notrestoring you and that you're
dreading.
And it could be because you'renot just engaging in something
to give yourself that energy togo do whatever those things are.
It may not be that you hatethat thing, it's just you don't
have the space and energy to doit.

Speaker 1 (48:48):
When you're like what are you doing?
That's not replenishing, and Iwas like doom scrolling.

Speaker 2 (48:52):
That's another thing.
Right, the comparison piecethat comes up when we're on
social media.
I have social media, I have noproblem saying that, and social
media can be such a deep hole Ifyou are not in a place mentally
and emotionally to be like wait, I'm confident in myself that
the things that I'm seeing arenot going to impact my next
decision.

Speaker 1 (49:10):
I mean that's absolutely worthwhile, like
saying that in and of itself,because I think for me it's so
interesting.
I love social media for theaspect that it is connected me
to so many wonderful peoplethrough this podcast and
interviews with clients, withother coaches.
I have a handful of friendsthat I met directly through
Instagram that are wonderful.
But, like you said, it's theintention, like this, we're

(49:32):
going to just tie this all rightback around to the beginning of
our conversation about theintention piece.
Are you equipped enough to knowthat, yeah, your next decision
isn't going to be predicated bywhat you see on social media and
you're not going to beinfluenced by the things that
you're scrolling on?
How are you using social media?
Because I think that I'll sayfrom my experience as a podcast
host and creating content, a lotof people have conversations

(49:58):
around working on body image orbad body image days, and they'll
tell you to curate your feed onsocial media and they'll tell
you to watch your social mediatime, and I think it's really
interesting because that'sputting the onus on the social
media and not on yourself andyour response to those things.

Speaker 2 (50:11):
I actually I created a self-assessment about social
media usage and basically it'swhat platform do you use, how do
you feel before you use it, howmuch time are you spending on
it, what thoughts do you have onit?
And then, like a reflectionafter and I actually made ones
that are smaller, where youmonitor that for a week and see
how much it's really interestingwhen you start to really be
again intentional about what'smy usage Wait, do I actually

(50:34):
want to be doing?
This Goes back to like what isit that you want versus what you
think you should be doing, orwhat, yeah, what you really
think you should be doing versuswhat you want to do.

Speaker 1 (50:42):
I love that you created a worksheet.
You give yourself likequalitative and quantitative
data.
To make my nerdy heart so happy.
I love it.
A while ago I did my own, let'ssay, self-experiment and I
replaced where my Instagram appis on my phone with my Kindle
app, and I love to readregardless.
But I wanted to see how often Icaught myself, because then it

(51:03):
was like click, click Instagramand it half the time.
It's mindless, right, and youwant to know like how many times
did I do that?
So I realized I read an extrabook a week in the same amount
of time that I would have beenscrolling, like the amount of
times I grabbed it.
Or you can on iPhones I don'tknow about Androids, but you can
look at stats on how many timesyou clicked on an app, how many
times you opened it.
It was insane.

(51:23):
I don't even want to admit howmany times I opened the app in a
day and just knowing that,that's how many times I picked
up my phone and just thinkthat's the other times you
picked up your phone for thatapp.

Speaker 2 (51:33):
Think about how many other times you probably picked
up your phone for other things.
Right, it's just wild how oftenwe do that.

Speaker 1 (51:38):
Okay, but there's awareness, ta-da.
Now you've brought awareness tothe thing and since then it has
brought so much moreintentionality to me of when I
pick up my phone, what am Igoing to do.
Why did you pick up your phone?
Oh, you're on Instagram.
Did you mean to get onInstagram?
Do you need to scroll?
And I never put my Instagramapp back, by the way.

Speaker 2 (51:58):
And then if someone was, like, well, did you do on
there?
You probably couldn't tell likecontent that you see or that
what you saw, like maybe one ortwo things.

Speaker 1 (52:04):
Maybe I posted or maybe I like made some stories
or I don't know, but 119 was theaverage.
And so once I pulled all thattogether and having that
intentionality I haven't checkedit in a while, but when I did
this it got down to an averageof like 15 times in a day, and
even then, when you think aboutthat, it's like 15 times that
you've picked up your phone.
Anyway, we said tangent.

Speaker 2 (52:24):
Yeah, going back to self-care, I'll just say this
self-care is giving the world abetter version of you instead of
what's left of you.
Again, I don't think there isanything that is best or perfect
, because that, again, is soabsolute and that's a standard
no one will ever meet.
You can't, you cannot do thatin human form.
But what you can do is you canbe better, and you can't be
better unless you take care ofyourself.

Speaker 1 (52:43):
That is wonderful.
I had a conversation earliertoday about the art of becoming
and talking about that kind ofas a concept, and that's exactly
it right.
When we think about ourselvesas becoming, about working on
things, how can we be betterversus perfect or perfecting
something?
I think that that is, if you'reokay with it, a really great
place to end on.
Unless you had anything else toadd on body image or self-care

(53:07):
or any of our other sidetangents, we went on.

Speaker 2 (53:09):
I don't think so, but yeah, this has been such a fun
conversation.

Speaker 1 (53:14):
We obviously have 100 tangents.
We could go on, but in interestof time I do have some fun
small wrap up questions.
Do you have any holidaytraditions?

Speaker 2 (53:24):
Every year I try to go to a corn maze and in the
fall, winter, I try to seefamily.
So I live on the East Coast,north East Coast, but they're
down in Florida, so definitelysee family.
Nothing like really traditional, but I do try to go to a corn
maze at least once a season.

Speaker 1 (53:39):
That's awesome.
Ok, if you had to pick one foodto eat for the rest of your
life, what would it be?
Man, that is, that is hard, youcan pick like a type of food,
genre, genre, exactly.
I was like you can pick cookiesand just have it be general, or
pizza.

Speaker 2 (53:54):
I think like potatoes .
You can do so much withpotatoes.
You can make soups withpotatoes, you can have fries,
you can have like potatoes forbreakfast with like I don't know
.

Speaker 1 (54:02):
I feel like potatoes that was legit, the best answer
I've ever heard, because yearbefore for my birthday, my
friends and I just sent back andforth a bunch of videos that we
found on Instagram aboutthrowing a potato birthday party
, and it was like a mashedpotato cake with French fries
with 27 different forms ofpotatoes.

Speaker 2 (54:19):
No, potatoes are literally I mean, this is gonna
be a really weird like way tobring it back but there is no
one individual like type ofpotato and you can do so much
with it, in the same way that weare not individual and there's
so many different things that wecan be doing.
That is literally why I likepotatoes, because they're so
versatile, and so are we.

Speaker 1 (54:36):
You just brought it all back around.
That was perfect.
Okay, next question what is thenumber one book that you've
recommended or given as a gift?

Speaker 2 (54:44):
The Choice by Dr Edith Egger.
I don't think that's how yousay her last name, but she is a
Holocaust survivor and she talksabout her time in the Holocaust
as a dancer and that's how sheactually survived.
Is that, basically, she wasvalued because she could perform
for, unfortunately, the others,and so her story is absolutely
beautiful.
If anyone can ever pick up acopy, I can never recommend that

(55:05):
book enough because she talksabout taking something so
devastating, so tragic, and turnit into something like she's
like I can't just be a victim inthis and she talks about
victimization and like howthat's so bad for our thinking.
I'm like, okay, this woman whowas in that situation could
write a book and talk about that.
I'm like, all right, I love it.
I think it's an incredible book.

Speaker 1 (55:24):
Thank you, and it's called the Choice.
Second to last question how doyou take your coffee or tea or
morning beverage of choice?

Speaker 2 (55:30):
It really depends on the season.
I know this sounds like soweird.
If it's like a holiday season,it is absolutely a white
peppermint mocha.
If it's the summer, it's justlike a black espresso and then
the rest of the time it's justiced coffee.
But definitely it's justdependent on what's happening
outdoors.

Speaker 1 (55:45):
It's totally a seasonal thing, I agree.
Well, I still haven'ttransitioned over to hot coffee
yet, but I'm an iced coffee allthrough the summer person.

Speaker 2 (55:52):
I mean, I'll have iced coffee at any time of the
year.
If anyone's like, here's aniced coffee, absolutely.

Speaker 1 (55:57):
But OK, last question when can audiences find you and
learn more?

Speaker 2 (56:00):
Yeah, so they can check me out at my website,
prowellnesspracticecom, or onour Instagram,
prowellnesspracticewell.
But yeah, those are kind ofreally the two places that were
pretty active.
And then you also have apodcast.
Yes, I do, it's called Grit andto Worth, and if you got this
far, then you know why that iscalled that.

Speaker 1 (56:19):
Thank you so much for coming on.
Thank you for your wealth ofknowledge and shared experience.
It means the world.
Absolutely Thanks so much forhaving me.

Speaker 2 (56:26):
This is such a great conversation.

Speaker 1 (56:28):
All right, friends.
Thank you so much for listeningto another episode and we will
catch you next Friday.