June 6, 2025 • 26 mins
Leadership isn't merely about a title or position – it's a deeply personal journey shaped by unique motivations and developed through structured experiences. When asked why they became leaders, most people reveal fascinating stories that blend practical considerations with deeper aspirations to create positive change.
From our hosts' candid reflections, we discover how leadership journeys often begin unexpectedly. John initially pursued management as a reaction against poor treatment, seeking to create more respectful environments for maintenance and facilities staff who were unfairly labeled as "necessary evils." Meanwhile, Greg's sociology background led him to supervision, followed by a detour through sales before finding his true calling in direct leadership. These authentic paths remind us that leadership development rarely follows a straight line.
At the heart of effective leadership growth lies the research-backed 70-20-10 framework developed by the Center for Creative Leadership. This powerful model reveals that 70% of leadership development comes from challenging on-the-job experiences, while 20% derives from developmental relationships like coaching and mentoring. Formal training, contrary to popular belief, accounts for just 10% of leadership growth. Cross-cultural research across China, India, Singapore, and the United States confirms that while learning sources may vary by culture, certain fundamentals remain universal: managing direct reports effectively, developing self-awareness, and executing responsibilities well.
The most successful leaders take charge of their own development by proactively seeking growth opportunities. Whether through cross-training programs, connecting with executives during your first 90 days, or requesting challenging assignments that stretch your capabilities, showing initiative signals your leadership potential. As our hosts emphasize, the first three months in any leadership position are critical – use this time wisely to prove yourself and establish valuable connections.
Ready to accelerate your leadership journey? Grab John's book "Building your Leadership Toolbox" on Amazon or Barnes & Noble, and share your own leadership experiences with us at wando75.jw@gmail.com or gpowell374@gmail.com. We'd love to hear how you're applying these principles in your own leadership path!
Presented by John Wandolowski and Greg Powell
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Well, hello and welcome to our podcast, success
Secrets and Stories.
I'm your host, john Wondoloski,and I'm here with my co-host
and friend, greg Powell Greg heyeverybody.
Yeah.
So today I wanted to kind ofchange it up a little bit with
our podcast and we usually coverthe subjects in terms of
(00:39):
leadership and I thought I'dkind of go more to the root of
the whole idea of why we didthis podcast.
Why do you want to become aleader?
So, just for a second, when Ioriginally went into management,
it was a reaction to how poorlyI was being treated by a
certain company that encouragedme to get into leadership.
(01:01):
They really considered themaintenance department and the
housekeeping department asnecessary evils.
They would actually say thatthe next line was usually that
we were not contributing to thebottom line.
Now, you know this is 2025.
That was a while ago.
In 2025, I think theyunderstand the importance of
(01:22):
facilities and housekeeping andmaintenance departments.
They've grown a little bit interms of how the operations work
, that if those teams aren'tcapable for me, when I was in
the healthcare side, they wouldshut down hospital operations.
So why did I want to become aleader?
(01:44):
Well, one was that reaction tohow I was being treated.
But let's go a little bit moreto a personal perspective and I
think Greg and I want to talkabout that a little bit.
For me, you know, the simplestthings were the ones that come
to mind first.
Better hours I was on a dayshift instead of second shift or
third shift.
That meant something.
Less time working on theweekends.
(02:06):
Technically I didn't have towork on the weekends and I
didn't when I had a choice Lessrisk of injury.
As a mechanic, I was doing roadcalls, I'm doing heavy equipment
, I'm lifting heavy weights andthere are accidents.
They just happen.
That's part of life.
There was better pay and what Ifind interesting, whenever you
(02:29):
get leadership and you're asupervisor, there's going to be
occasions when people are paidovertime and working weekends
that their pay is going to bebetter than yours.
It's all the trade-offs onwhether you thought the first
three things I brought up wereimportant enough to have a paid
difference.
It's a cleaner workingenvironment.
As a mechanic, that was a bigdeal for me, but the two really
(02:51):
were more of the reaction ofwhat really drove me to
leadership.
I wanted to create a betterwork environment and a little
bit more respect for thepositions of maintenance and
facilities and housekeeping andproject teams, that they weren't
an expense, that they wereactually a part of the
organization, and I wanted mycareer in terms of leading
(03:12):
people that I could actuallyprotect, people that were being
picked on.
To be honest, within theorganization, they were
marginalized and I wanted togive them their moment in time
and respect.
Greg, what was the motivationsthat you had to become a leader?
Speaker 1 (03:29):
So, john, when I was in college as a sociology major
or psychology minor, that wasone of the vocations I was told
that that degree would apply to.
So I started applying for jobsas first-line supervisor
different shifts, differentcompanies, different industries
and I got it.
I got that job and it's likefantastic, this is great.
So I did it on one shift andthen I did it on another shift
(03:51):
and somebody came up to me,someone that had influence, a
leader in our organization saidyou know, greg, you'd really be
good at sales.
I see you in our salesorganization and we have an
opening as we speak and it'd bea promotion for you if you got
it so right I'm impressionablemade sense.
He says I can do it, why not?
So I did indeed apply.
I got accepted, went to theclass training, went to the
(04:13):
field training, got moved out toa chicago area from kansas and
probably three, four, maybe sixmonths in I noticed this
probably isn't for me.
Um, there's some really toughparts about sales, like cold
calling and sometimes closingthe deal that I just wasn't
naturally good at and didn'tthink I was going to get
naturally good at it anytimesoon.
(04:33):
So tried it out for about ayear and a half.
Decided at that point, go backto my roots, which was first
line leadership, and so I met MrJohn Wondolowski, and the rest
is history.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
Yeah, those were fun days, but what I thought was
interesting, though, ourexperience with larger
organizations, fortune 500companies.
They had formal trainingprograms, different approaches,
obviously, differentapplications, but actually
having that training as a partof when I was interviewing and
(05:08):
understanding that that was partof the program, that they would
give me the opportunity tolearn and teach me the craft
that really intrigued me interms of accepting the position.
I don't know, greg, did youhave that same experience of
hearing that at the entry level?
Speaker 1 (05:23):
So I was looking for a good quality company to work
for, and one of the things thiscompany had was training.
They had formal training andsome of the training was in like
a town 20 miles away and therewould be other supervisors like
myself learning some of the samethings at the same time Also
being able to engage, createcommunity.
But it was formalized trainingand it definitely was to my
advantage.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
So you had a subject that you know about and that's
something that you can talkabout.
That was new to me.
That I didn't know was a formalprogram 70-20-10.
Take it away.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
Thanks, sean.
Yeah, the 70-20-10 rule forleadership development.
Now we're going to talk about aCindy McCauley.
She's a PhD who's done a lot ofwork over 30 years at Center
for Creative Leadership.
I was fortunate to be able totake some coursework at CCL in
Colorado and incredibleinformation, incredible learning
, et cetera.
But what is that 70-20-10framework?
(06:16):
What does that mean?
So it's a research-based,time-tested, classic guideline
Again, a guideline because youcan maybe 80%, sometimes maybe
65%, sometimes right fordeveloping managers.
And it emerged over 30 years oflessons of experience.
So it's been research-backed,documented.
So, according to the 70-20-10rule, leaders learn and grow
(06:37):
from three types of experience.
That's what the model lookslike.
All right, 70% leaders learnfrom just challenging
experiences and assignments.
Yes, sometimes with thoseassignments they make mistakes.
They learn from those mistakes.
Sometimes experiences may notbe the most pleasant, but again,
they learn from thoseexperiences.
Now you're saying what about mycoaching and what about my
mentoring?
That's the 20% developmentalrelationship piece.
(06:59):
That's really helpful in the70-20-10 framework.
So that's good.
If you have that now, don'tgive it up.
And then, of course, every oncein a while, you still need some
coursework, some classroomtraining, and that's really
about 10%.
So, before you came into thisthinking, oh, 90% is coursework,
classroom training that wouldprobably not be optimum for you.
(07:19):
So the underlying assumption ofthe 70-20-10 rule is that
leadership can be learned, thatleaders are made, not just
naturally born, and CCL Centerfor Creative Leadership believes
that, today more than ever, amanager's ability and
willingness to learn fromexperience is a foundation for
learning with impact.
So let's just break down thosethree types of experiences
(07:41):
another way the impact that ithas on executive development.
So it's pretty basic.
10% courses right, if yourcompany has a curriculum and
they offer courses on this, thatand the other 10% of what
you're going to learn will getfrom coursework.
20% from other people againcoaching, mentoring, peers,
things that you hear from otherfolks and that you see up close.
(08:02):
That's very helpful.
But on-the-job experienceremember what OTJ we used to
call John Right, right,on-the-job experiences and
challenges.
That's the bang for the buck,that's where you really get the
investment back.
So, john, give us a couple ofyour reactions to training.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
Well, for me, I thought it was kind of
interesting that I didn'tunderstand the 70-20-10, and I
actually experienced it.
So when we were talking aboutthis, the more I talked about it
, the more I realized that theorganizations were actually
following those guidelines andmy career went from
manufacturing to healthcare tohigher ed and a combination of
(08:40):
those.
But you know that you'redealing with a good organization
, an organization that actuallyis growing and is mature.
It is capable.
They have these kind oftraining requirements.
I guess my biggest challenge isas a new employee.
If you're interviewing, that'sthe other piece that you have to
(09:04):
do your homework.
You have to research theorganizations that you think you
want to move to, and this wholething about asking about the
training programs and thespecifics we're going to talk
about a little bit later on themagic word cross training All
those things are important toask on the front end.
Greg, what's your opinion ofthe 70-20-10?
Speaker 1 (09:27):
So I'm a pretty big fan of the 70-20-10.
And if a company offers thatlike you're applying for
organizations and you see thatthey have robust training in
that, I'd say, jump on it.
It absolutely should be part ofyour criteria for selecting an
organization, because that meansthey want to develop you, that
means that they're willing tolook at a multi-pronged approach
to helping you learn and be abetter leader.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
And this article goes on and says basically 70-20-10.
Yep, definitely Withexperience-driven development,
which experience contributes themost in terms of learning and
growth?
Experience is that key specificleadership lessons can be
(10:09):
learned from each of thoseexperiences.
Sometimes it's thatstorytelling that you have
within management of whathappened before, and not so much
that you can never do itdifferently.
But don't relearn a mistake.
That experience has alreadyhappened, we don't need to do it
again.
And it's to help most of allthat experience conversation,
(10:32):
that experience component tomatch your learning needs to the
experience that most likelyprovides that element of
learning.
In terms of their research,they had researched and mapped
out the links of experience tolessons learned.
That was the biggest driver interms of change.
It was experience.
(10:53):
As far as I'm concerned, talkingabout experience and developing
within a 90-day period of time,I think one of the biggest
challenges for people comingliterally from the street and
taking that position is you haveto understand there's a 90-day
period of time to see whetheryou're capable of doing the job.
You can be fired, you can belet go after 90 days if you just
(11:17):
cannot apply yourself to theposition.
Most organizations don't wantto do that, but where I've seen.
That kind of kick in is whenyou take somebody from your
hourly staff and you're tryingto give them that opportunity to
advance, and they have tounderstand that when you do that
that's a little bit trickierbecause technically you can't go
(11:39):
back to your hourly position,you're successful in the
leadership position or you'regone and that is a big leap to
take that step.
So cross-training gives you theability to at least test
yourself to understand the otherdevelopmental growth things
that you need to look into,those kind of elements of what
(11:59):
does it mean to take thatadvancement, greg?
Do you have any insight in that?
Speaker 1 (12:04):
So the same thing, john, when you're an hourly
employee, you're trying to workyour way up into leadership,
you've got to have some skin inthe game.
So it's not hey, I get thispromotion and I get this, maybe
a little cubicle to work out of,and that sort of thing, and it
just goes on and on and on.
Not so much.
You really need to proveyourself in the first 90 days
that you're up to this.
I had mentioned to John anexample I had which was really
(12:25):
sad.
I had to let somebody go thatwas going from hourly trying to
become salary.
They were in that 90-day periodand they were tardy and missed
some days.
I said dude, if you can't behere, how are you going to lead
people and make sure thatthey're there?
So it's not like it's cruel andunusual, but in that 90 days
you're still trying to proveyourself and meet some I
(12:46):
consider minimum standards tocontinue on the leadership
journey, john.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
So she went on in her article and talking about
sources of leadership learningfrom experiences, and what was,
I think, unique from her articleis that she's using research
from China, india, singapore andthe US and from that data they
found something important interms of similarities and
differences.
By the way, leadership islearned from experiences, but
(13:15):
it's from the study of thosefour countries and I think what
really stands out is number onebosses and superiors.
Number two turnarounds.
Number three increases in jobscope or assignment.
Number three increases in jobscope or assignment.
Four horizontal moves.
Five new initiatives.
(13:40):
Those were the ones that reallypushed that learning from
experience.
The other part that wasinteresting is that the sources
of leadership learning fromexperiences are different in
each one of the countries, whichI thought was rather
interesting, and they talkedabout two key elements from each
different part of the map ofthe world.
China, the experiences in termsof learning would be personal
(14:04):
experience and mistakes were thetwo key indicators that would
push that needle of learning.
In India, it's personalexperiences and crossing
cultures.
Singapore, stakeholders,engagement and crises.
And in the United States,mistakes and ethical dilemmas,
(14:26):
and that was the one when I wasgoing over this.
It's like, uh, ethical, ethicaldilemmas are the biggest
challenge in us.
I'm kind of coming from thefrom the point of view that if
you don't understand ethics andyou're in leadership, I have a
hard time understanding how yougot that leadership position in
(14:47):
the first place.
So there, there is discussions,I remember, with a number of
organizations that set thatethical bar so that you
understand SOX and some of theother regulations that we often
have to work with.
But, greg, have you heard thatethical training was that big of
(15:07):
a key for new hires?
Speaker 1 (15:09):
So there are training courses for ethics, just to
remind people about what theirroles are in that.
But it's a non-starter.
I mean, you're either ethicalor you're not.
There's not like a five scale.
I'm a one in ethics, oh, I'm athree in ethics, right?
So let's talk some more aboutsources of leadership learning
from experiences.
Among the leadership lessonslearned from these experiences,
(15:30):
all four countries that Johnmentioned rank these three as
universally important Managingdirect reports, self-awareness
and executing effectively.
Right, Because at some pointyou've got to make the job
happen.
You've got to lead and makethings happen.
To adapt and grow, leaders needto be constantly involved in
new experiences and challengesthat foster learning.
That's the idea here.
(15:50):
Some of these new opportunitieswill come their way through new
jobs, crisis situations,unfortunately, or just
significant changes andchallenges, but it isn't
necessary to change jobs to findpowerful learning experiences
in the workplace.
Let me repeat that it isn'talways necessary to change jobs
to find powerful learningexperiences in the workplace,
(16:11):
and in any job situation,leaders need to seek out and
strengthen relationships withtheir boss, with their mentors,
their peers, and that's going tohelp them contribute to their
own growth and leadership.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
Yeah, and I think when you're talking about
leadership, the universal,important managing direct
reports, self-awarenessSelf-awareness is probably one
of the most important elementsof leadership To know when
you're actually effective andineffective.
The next point is executingeffectively.
(16:45):
I think that's more of a resultrather than a cause, but know
when your message is gettingacross.
And the other element that wasvery important, just to repeat
it you have to seek out leadersand mentors.
You have to be engaged in thatprocess.
You can't expect it to becoming to you.
If it isn't, you need to stepup and ask.
(17:06):
But that's the other part ofbeing a leader.
There's times where you waitfor them to do the information,
but if you're in leadership,especially at a high enough
level, and you're having a gapin terms of training, you need
to ask.
I need more experience with theaccounting department.
I don't understand the details.
(17:26):
Can I spend a little bit oftime?
That's you taking that nextstep to be able to learn, greg.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
Yeah, we talked about this, John, and I agree.
You can't necessarily be anintrovert here.
You've got to show confidence,you've got to stand up tall,
asking for opportunities as ademonstration of how you will be
as a leader as well.
So it's a basic requirement towhat we like to call get engaged
with others in leadership aswell.
Courses of leadership, learningfrom experiences again
(17:54):
continued At Center for CreativeLeadership.
Their work with the 70-20-10framework reveals that the power
of putting experience at thecenter of talent management so
if you can see there's a target,a bullseye that experience is
what you're looking for.
It's an approach thatemphasizes the pivotal role of
challenging assignments andattracting, developing and
(18:17):
retaining talent and, at thesame time, highlights how the
power of on-the-job experienceis enhanced when surrounded by
developmental relationships andformal learning opportunities.
So again, it's a model, it's aframework.
It's not just one of the three,it's all three and they do work
together.
In fact, the research from CCLon the 70-20-10 rule shows that
(18:38):
challenging assignments are theprimary source of key learning
experiences in managerialcareers.
Speaker 2 (18:47):
Yeah, and the thing that I found most challenging is
when I was going through thatfirst 90 days and I was actually
talking to other departmentheads.
Unfortunately, you don't havean opportunity to talk to a lot
of the other VPs and executives,but if you're in the 90 days
you have a golden opportunity tobe known by the president of
(19:09):
the organization, by the threevice presidency organization,
and they are usually verygenerous with their time and
really find it engaging andhappy to answer questions.
Be smart about thoseopportunities.
Come there with at least goodquestions.
Don't have a hundred questionsfor the executives but don't
come in with a blank sheet ofpaper and walk in and miss this
(19:33):
opportunity to try to gain someknowledge.
But more so, exposure is yourbiggest key for that training
program and if you're using itright, it's a wonderful step off
to cross-training opportunities.
They learn a little bit aboutyou during that process.
You'd be stunned at how manytimes that comes back.
The other part that I think isinteresting is experience can be
(19:57):
either shadowing someone or itcan be an exchange with a
connection that you have on theshift.
Depending upon how that personpresents and how you receive the
information, you have aninstant contact with somebody
who's training you.
That's possibly a good ally asyou go forward.
That's your first place to workon your skills of leadership
(20:21):
and peer communication Goldentime, and you can't waste those
opportunities, greg.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
You know, John, over the years I've seen some really
good examples of folks that didsome cross-training and really
improved themselves.
They improved themselves, forthe company as well as their own
careers.
We talk about sometimesreinventing yourself, but it's
amazing.
Smart people are smart peopleare smart people.
Curious people are curiouspeople are curious people.
Put in the right environment,they can prosper and and again
(20:52):
make a greater contribution tothe organization.
And it's just the willingness totake that cross-training
opportunity because it is alittle scary, right.
Hey, I got a good job, I'mdoing fine, the pay is good.
Why do I want to change?
Well, you've got to be able toface that question and be
comfortable with saying becauseI want to see how good I can get
, I want to be a more criticalasset to the organization, I
(21:13):
want to expand my horizons, andso a lot of it is attitude and
interest.
But I can tell you so manytimes when people have come in
and said I'm always going to beIT security, human resources,
customer contact only, andthey've made switches that again
enhance their capability andactually help the company out.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
And the last point that was brought up in the
article was the amplifier effectof the 10% coursework and just
to quickly summarize it, it hasto be up to date and it has to
be impactful.
There needs to be a good,well-designed program and
sometimes you'll find out thatyou can influence the training
by saying things that you thinkare missing and helping them to
(21:53):
make that much more of animpactful document, an impactful
period of time of coursework,and a little bit of what her
article was trying to talk aboutis that that is the part to
amplify it, to improve upon it,and I think the other part that
she was trying to talk about isyou're trying to establish a
(22:14):
knowledge base and if you startactually doing the application
and it just comes back to myexperience of learning an
accounting program and when Iwas done with it and I opened up
the program to start, it was adifferent accounting program.
They had actually changed itwithin the last like week, week
and a half, and they didn'tupdate the training program that
(22:38):
I had spent like three hours orfour hours working on.
So making sure that it's, thatit's up to date, that it's
relevant to your assignment, allthose things kind of kick in
and help amplify the effect.
Of course time, all thosethings kind of kick in and help
amplify the effect.
Of course time and the hospitalapplication.
I probably spent more like 20,20, 60 trying to get up to speed
(23:01):
with all the technology theywanted me to learn.
So, yeah, you can see a realcause and effect when you have a
good training program and thatclassroom is really pretty
involved and pretty well plannedout.
Greg, have you had theexperience that side of it in
terms of how 70-20 piece of itactually played out, the
(23:26):
ever-famous trial by fire sideof it?
Speaker 1 (23:28):
So I've been fortunate to be working for
companies that have prettyrobust learning and development
departments and familiarity withCenter for Creative Leadership.
So it's you know I canunderstand where that trial by
fire approach could happen.
But I've just been blessed thatthe companies I work for in
fact one company I work for wassmaller, and then when I came to
the company I said, greg, weneed a training program.
I mean, they asked me for that.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
Oh yeah, there you go .
Speaker 1 (23:50):
Besides, you know, shoring up our benefits in our
comp program and other things iswe need a training program.
So obviously things like the70-20-10 rule are in my mind,
because it's going to involveother folks.
It's not just going to be meand my two-person department.
It's going to require managersto participate and learn how to
(24:12):
coach and mentor and giveassignments and, you know,
monitor assignments.
So I've just been prettyfortunate to work in
organizations that provided somelevel of framework for 70-20-10
.
Speaker 2 (24:17):
Yeah, and the humor I got.
I remember my days of being amechanic.
It was pull your toolbox out ofthe trailer and good luck.
What kind of job you're dealingwith.
That leader could have done alittle bit more to help me out
with the transition.
So I think we kind of covered alittle bit about the training
program and a little bit of yourexpectations as a leader, and
(24:41):
the 70-20-10 is a wonderfulmathematical answer on what you
should be looking at and whatyou should be doing.
If it doesn't exist in theorganization that you work for
right now, you should be workingon trying to develop it,
because it has a wonderfuleffect in terms of keeping
employees and helping employeesgrow.
(25:01):
Giving them a good start isalways the key.
So, if you like what you'veheard, I have a book Building
your Leadership Toolbox.
It's available on Amazon andBarnes Noble the podcast is what
you're listening to and also onthe formats of Apple, google
and Spotify.
Thank you.
A lot of our discussionssometimes are based on the MBR
(25:27):
program by Dr Durst and you canfind his information on
successgrowthacademycom and youcan find his information on
successgrowthacademycom.
If you'd like to get a hold ofus, my email address is
wando75.jw at gmailcom and Greg.
Speaker 1 (25:44):
I can be reached at gpowell374 at gmailcom.
Speaker 2 (25:49):
And the music has been brought to you by my
grandson.
So thank you for listening.
We want to hear from you.
Drop us a line and uh, yeah sothanks greg, thanks john, as
always next time yeah.
Well, hello and welcome to our podcast, success
Secrets and Stories.
I'm your host, john Wondoloski,and I'm here with my co-host
and friend, greg Powell Greg heyeverybody.
Yeah.
So today I wanted to kind ofchange it up a little bit with
our podcast and we usually coverthe subjects in terms of
(00:39):
leadership and I thought I'dkind of go more to the root of
the whole idea of why we didthis podcast.
Why do you want to become aleader?
So, just for a second, when Ioriginally went into management,
it was a reaction to how poorlyI was being treated by a
certain company that encouragedme to get into leadership.
(01:01):
They really considered themaintenance department and the
housekeeping department asnecessary evils.
They would actually say thatthe next line was usually that
we were not contributing to thebottom line.
Now, you know this is 2025.
That was a while ago.
In 2025, I think theyunderstand the importance of
(01:22):
facilities and housekeeping andmaintenance departments.
They've grown a little bit interms of how the operations work
, that if those teams aren'tcapable for me, when I was in
the healthcare side, they wouldshut down hospital operations.
So why did I want to become aleader?
(01:44):
Well, one was that reaction tohow I was being treated.
But let's go a little bit moreto a personal perspective and I
think Greg and I want to talkabout that a little bit.
For me, you know, the simplestthings were the ones that come
to mind first.
Better hours I was on a dayshift instead of second shift or
third shift.
That meant something.
Less time working on theweekends.
(02:06):
Technically I didn't have towork on the weekends and I
didn't when I had a choice Lessrisk of injury.
As a mechanic, I was doing roadcalls, I'm doing heavy equipment
, I'm lifting heavy weights andthere are accidents.
They just happen.
That's part of life.
There was better pay and what Ifind interesting, whenever you
(02:29):
get leadership and you're asupervisor, there's going to be
occasions when people are paidovertime and working weekends
that their pay is going to bebetter than yours.
It's all the trade-offs onwhether you thought the first
three things I brought up wereimportant enough to have a paid
difference.
It's a cleaner workingenvironment.
As a mechanic, that was a bigdeal for me, but the two really
(02:51):
were more of the reaction ofwhat really drove me to
leadership.
I wanted to create a betterwork environment and a little
bit more respect for thepositions of maintenance and
facilities and housekeeping andproject teams, that they weren't
an expense, that they wereactually a part of the
organization, and I wanted mycareer in terms of leading
(03:12):
people that I could actuallyprotect, people that were being
picked on.
To be honest, within theorganization, they were
marginalized and I wanted togive them their moment in time
and respect.
Greg, what was the motivationsthat you had to become a leader?
Speaker 1 (03:29):
So, john, when I was in college as a sociology major
or psychology minor, that wasone of the vocations I was told
that that degree would apply to.
So I started applying for jobsas first-line supervisor
different shifts, differentcompanies, different industries
and I got it.
I got that job and it's likefantastic, this is great.
So I did it on one shift andthen I did it on another shift
(03:51):
and somebody came up to me,someone that had influence, a
leader in our organization saidyou know, greg, you'd really be
good at sales.
I see you in our salesorganization and we have an
opening as we speak and it'd bea promotion for you if you got
it so right I'm impressionablemade sense.
He says I can do it, why not?
So I did indeed apply.
I got accepted, went to theclass training, went to the
(04:13):
field training, got moved out toa chicago area from kansas and
probably three, four, maybe sixmonths in I noticed this
probably isn't for me.
Um, there's some really toughparts about sales, like cold
calling and sometimes closingthe deal that I just wasn't
naturally good at and didn'tthink I was going to get
naturally good at it anytimesoon.
(04:33):
So tried it out for about ayear and a half.
Decided at that point, go backto my roots, which was first
line leadership, and so I met MrJohn Wondolowski, and the rest
is history.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
Yeah, those were fun days, but what I thought was
interesting, though, ourexperience with larger
organizations, fortune 500companies.
They had formal trainingprograms, different approaches,
obviously, differentapplications, but actually
having that training as a partof when I was interviewing and
(05:08):
understanding that that was partof the program, that they would
give me the opportunity tolearn and teach me the craft
that really intrigued me interms of accepting the position.
I don't know, greg, did youhave that same experience of
hearing that at the entry level?
Speaker 1 (05:23):
So I was looking for a good quality company to work
for, and one of the things thiscompany had was training.
They had formal training andsome of the training was in like
a town 20 miles away and therewould be other supervisors like
myself learning some of the samethings at the same time Also
being able to engage, createcommunity.
But it was formalized trainingand it definitely was to my
advantage.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
So you had a subject that you know about and that's
something that you can talkabout.
That was new to me.
That I didn't know was a formalprogram 70-20-10.
Take it away.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
Thanks, sean.
Yeah, the 70-20-10 rule forleadership development.
Now we're going to talk about aCindy McCauley.
She's a PhD who's done a lot ofwork over 30 years at Center
for Creative Leadership.
I was fortunate to be able totake some coursework at CCL in
Colorado and incredibleinformation, incredible learning
, et cetera.
But what is that 70-20-10framework?
(06:16):
What does that mean?
So it's a research-based,time-tested, classic guideline
Again, a guideline because youcan maybe 80%, sometimes maybe
65%, sometimes right fordeveloping managers.
And it emerged over 30 years oflessons of experience.
So it's been research-backed,documented.
So, according to the 70-20-10rule, leaders learn and grow
(06:37):
from three types of experience.
That's what the model lookslike.
All right, 70% leaders learnfrom just challenging
experiences and assignments.
Yes, sometimes with thoseassignments they make mistakes.
They learn from those mistakes.
Sometimes experiences may notbe the most pleasant, but again,
they learn from thoseexperiences.
Now you're saying what about mycoaching and what about my
mentoring?
That's the 20% developmentalrelationship piece.
(06:59):
That's really helpful in the70-20-10 framework.
So that's good.
If you have that now, don'tgive it up.
And then, of course, every oncein a while, you still need some
coursework, some classroomtraining, and that's really
about 10%.
So, before you came into thisthinking, oh, 90% is coursework,
classroom training that wouldprobably not be optimum for you.
(07:19):
So the underlying assumption ofthe 70-20-10 rule is that
leadership can be learned, thatleaders are made, not just
naturally born, and CCL Centerfor Creative Leadership believes
that, today more than ever, amanager's ability and
willingness to learn fromexperience is a foundation for
learning with impact.
So let's just break down thosethree types of experiences
(07:41):
another way the impact that ithas on executive development.
So it's pretty basic.
10% courses right, if yourcompany has a curriculum and
they offer courses on this, thatand the other 10% of what
you're going to learn will getfrom coursework.
20% from other people againcoaching, mentoring, peers,
things that you hear from otherfolks and that you see up close.
(08:02):
That's very helpful.
But on-the-job experienceremember what OTJ we used to
call John Right, right,on-the-job experiences and
challenges.
That's the bang for the buck,that's where you really get the
investment back.
So, john, give us a couple ofyour reactions to training.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
Well, for me, I thought it was kind of
interesting that I didn'tunderstand the 70-20-10, and I
actually experienced it.
So when we were talking aboutthis, the more I talked about it
, the more I realized that theorganizations were actually
following those guidelines andmy career went from
manufacturing to healthcare tohigher ed and a combination of
(08:40):
those.
But you know that you'redealing with a good organization
, an organization that actuallyis growing and is mature.
It is capable.
They have these kind oftraining requirements.
I guess my biggest challenge isas a new employee.
If you're interviewing, that'sthe other piece that you have to
(09:04):
do your homework.
You have to research theorganizations that you think you
want to move to, and this wholething about asking about the
training programs and thespecifics we're going to talk
about a little bit later on themagic word cross training All
those things are important toask on the front end.
Greg, what's your opinion ofthe 70-20-10?
Speaker 1 (09:27):
So I'm a pretty big fan of the 70-20-10.
And if a company offers thatlike you're applying for
organizations and you see thatthey have robust training in
that, I'd say, jump on it.
It absolutely should be part ofyour criteria for selecting an
organization, because that meansthey want to develop you, that
means that they're willing tolook at a multi-pronged approach
to helping you learn and be abetter leader.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
And this article goes on and says basically 70-20-10.
Yep, definitely Withexperience-driven development,
which experience contributes themost in terms of learning and
growth?
Experience is that key specificleadership lessons can be
(10:09):
learned from each of thoseexperiences.
Sometimes it's thatstorytelling that you have
within management of whathappened before, and not so much
that you can never do itdifferently.
But don't relearn a mistake.
That experience has alreadyhappened, we don't need to do it
again.
And it's to help most of allthat experience conversation,
(10:32):
that experience component tomatch your learning needs to the
experience that most likelyprovides that element of
learning.
In terms of their research,they had researched and mapped
out the links of experience tolessons learned.
That was the biggest driver interms of change.
It was experience.
(10:53):
As far as I'm concerned, talkingabout experience and developing
within a 90-day period of time,I think one of the biggest
challenges for people comingliterally from the street and
taking that position is you haveto understand there's a 90-day
period of time to see whetheryou're capable of doing the job.
You can be fired, you can belet go after 90 days if you just
(11:17):
cannot apply yourself to theposition.
Most organizations don't wantto do that, but where I've seen.
That kind of kick in is whenyou take somebody from your
hourly staff and you're tryingto give them that opportunity to
advance, and they have tounderstand that when you do that
that's a little bit trickierbecause technically you can't go
(11:39):
back to your hourly position,you're successful in the
leadership position or you'regone and that is a big leap to
take that step.
So cross-training gives you theability to at least test
yourself to understand the otherdevelopmental growth things
that you need to look into,those kind of elements of what
(11:59):
does it mean to take thatadvancement, greg?
Do you have any insight in that?
Speaker 1 (12:04):
So the same thing, john, when you're an hourly
employee, you're trying to workyour way up into leadership,
you've got to have some skin inthe game.
So it's not hey, I get thispromotion and I get this, maybe
a little cubicle to work out of,and that sort of thing, and it
just goes on and on and on.
Not so much.
You really need to proveyourself in the first 90 days
that you're up to this.
I had mentioned to John anexample I had which was really
(12:25):
sad.
I had to let somebody go thatwas going from hourly trying to
become salary.
They were in that 90-day periodand they were tardy and missed
some days.
I said dude, if you can't behere, how are you going to lead
people and make sure thatthey're there?
So it's not like it's cruel andunusual, but in that 90 days
you're still trying to proveyourself and meet some I
(12:46):
consider minimum standards tocontinue on the leadership
journey, john.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
So she went on in her article and talking about
sources of leadership learningfrom experiences, and what was,
I think, unique from her articleis that she's using research
from China, india, singapore andthe US and from that data they
found something important interms of similarities and
differences.
By the way, leadership islearned from experiences, but
(13:15):
it's from the study of thosefour countries and I think what
really stands out is number onebosses and superiors.
Number two turnarounds.
Number three increases in jobscope or assignment.
Number three increases in jobscope or assignment.
Four horizontal moves.
Five new initiatives.
(13:40):
Those were the ones that reallypushed that learning from
experience.
The other part that wasinteresting is that the sources
of leadership learning fromexperiences are different in
each one of the countries, whichI thought was rather
interesting, and they talkedabout two key elements from each
different part of the map ofthe world.
China, the experiences in termsof learning would be personal
(14:04):
experience and mistakes were thetwo key indicators that would
push that needle of learning.
In India, it's personalexperiences and crossing
cultures.
Singapore, stakeholders,engagement and crises.
And in the United States,mistakes and ethical dilemmas,
(14:26):
and that was the one when I wasgoing over this.
It's like, uh, ethical, ethicaldilemmas are the biggest
challenge in us.
I'm kind of coming from thefrom the point of view that if
you don't understand ethics andyou're in leadership, I have a
hard time understanding how yougot that leadership position in
(14:47):
the first place.
So there, there is discussions,I remember, with a number of
organizations that set thatethical bar so that you
understand SOX and some of theother regulations that we often
have to work with.
But, greg, have you heard thatethical training was that big of
(15:07):
a key for new hires?
Speaker 1 (15:09):
So there are training courses for ethics, just to
remind people about what theirroles are in that.
But it's a non-starter.
I mean, you're either ethicalor you're not.
There's not like a five scale.
I'm a one in ethics, oh, I'm athree in ethics, right?
So let's talk some more aboutsources of leadership learning
from experiences.
Among the leadership lessonslearned from these experiences,
(15:30):
all four countries that Johnmentioned rank these three as
universally important Managingdirect reports, self-awareness
and executing effectively.
Right, Because at some pointyou've got to make the job
happen.
You've got to lead and makethings happen.
To adapt and grow, leaders needto be constantly involved in
new experiences and challengesthat foster learning.
That's the idea here.
(15:50):
Some of these new opportunitieswill come their way through new
jobs, crisis situations,unfortunately, or just
significant changes andchallenges, but it isn't
necessary to change jobs to findpowerful learning experiences
in the workplace.
Let me repeat that it isn'talways necessary to change jobs
to find powerful learningexperiences in the workplace,
(16:11):
and in any job situation,leaders need to seek out and
strengthen relationships withtheir boss, with their mentors,
their peers, and that's going tohelp them contribute to their
own growth and leadership.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
Yeah, and I think when you're talking about
leadership, the universal,important managing direct
reports, self-awarenessSelf-awareness is probably one
of the most important elementsof leadership To know when
you're actually effective andineffective.
The next point is executingeffectively.
(16:45):
I think that's more of a resultrather than a cause, but know
when your message is gettingacross.
And the other element that wasvery important, just to repeat
it you have to seek out leadersand mentors.
You have to be engaged in thatprocess.
You can't expect it to becoming to you.
If it isn't, you need to stepup and ask.
(17:06):
But that's the other part ofbeing a leader.
There's times where you waitfor them to do the information,
but if you're in leadership,especially at a high enough
level, and you're having a gapin terms of training, you need
to ask.
I need more experience with theaccounting department.
I don't understand the details.
(17:26):
Can I spend a little bit oftime?
That's you taking that nextstep to be able to learn, greg.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
Yeah, we talked about this, John, and I agree.
You can't necessarily be anintrovert here.
You've got to show confidence,you've got to stand up tall,
asking for opportunities as ademonstration of how you will be
as a leader as well.
So it's a basic requirement towhat we like to call get engaged
with others in leadership aswell.
Courses of leadership, learningfrom experiences again
(17:54):
continued At Center for CreativeLeadership.
Their work with the 70-20-10framework reveals that the power
of putting experience at thecenter of talent management so
if you can see there's a target,a bullseye that experience is
what you're looking for.
It's an approach thatemphasizes the pivotal role of
challenging assignments andattracting, developing and
(18:17):
retaining talent and, at thesame time, highlights how the
power of on-the-job experienceis enhanced when surrounded by
developmental relationships andformal learning opportunities.
So again, it's a model, it's aframework.
It's not just one of the three,it's all three and they do work
together.
In fact, the research from CCLon the 70-20-10 rule shows that
(18:38):
challenging assignments are theprimary source of key learning
experiences in managerialcareers.
Speaker 2 (18:47):
Yeah, and the thing that I found most challenging is
when I was going through thatfirst 90 days and I was actually
talking to other departmentheads.
Unfortunately, you don't havean opportunity to talk to a lot
of the other VPs and executives,but if you're in the 90 days
you have a golden opportunity tobe known by the president of
(19:09):
the organization, by the threevice presidency organization,
and they are usually verygenerous with their time and
really find it engaging andhappy to answer questions.
Be smart about thoseopportunities.
Come there with at least goodquestions.
Don't have a hundred questionsfor the executives but don't
come in with a blank sheet ofpaper and walk in and miss this
(19:33):
opportunity to try to gain someknowledge.
But more so, exposure is yourbiggest key for that training
program and if you're using itright, it's a wonderful step off
to cross-training opportunities.
They learn a little bit aboutyou during that process.
You'd be stunned at how manytimes that comes back.
The other part that I think isinteresting is experience can be
(19:57):
either shadowing someone or itcan be an exchange with a
connection that you have on theshift.
Depending upon how that personpresents and how you receive the
information, you have aninstant contact with somebody
who's training you.
That's possibly a good ally asyou go forward.
That's your first place to workon your skills of leadership
(20:21):
and peer communication Goldentime, and you can't waste those
opportunities, greg.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
You know, John, over the years I've seen some really
good examples of folks that didsome cross-training and really
improved themselves.
They improved themselves, forthe company as well as their own
careers.
We talk about sometimesreinventing yourself, but it's
amazing.
Smart people are smart peopleare smart people.
Curious people are curiouspeople are curious people.
Put in the right environment,they can prosper and and again
(20:52):
make a greater contribution tothe organization.
And it's just the willingness totake that cross-training
opportunity because it is alittle scary, right.
Hey, I got a good job, I'mdoing fine, the pay is good.
Why do I want to change?
Well, you've got to be able toface that question and be
comfortable with saying becauseI want to see how good I can get
, I want to be a more criticalasset to the organization, I
(21:13):
want to expand my horizons, andso a lot of it is attitude and
interest.
But I can tell you so manytimes when people have come in
and said I'm always going to beIT security, human resources,
customer contact only, andthey've made switches that again
enhance their capability andactually help the company out.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
And the last point that was brought up in the
article was the amplifier effectof the 10% coursework and just
to quickly summarize it, it hasto be up to date and it has to
be impactful.
There needs to be a good,well-designed program and
sometimes you'll find out thatyou can influence the training
by saying things that you thinkare missing and helping them to
(21:53):
make that much more of animpactful document, an impactful
period of time of coursework,and a little bit of what her
article was trying to talk aboutis that that is the part to
amplify it, to improve upon it,and I think the other part that
she was trying to talk about isyou're trying to establish a
(22:14):
knowledge base and if you startactually doing the application
and it just comes back to myexperience of learning an
accounting program and when Iwas done with it and I opened up
the program to start, it was adifferent accounting program.
They had actually changed itwithin the last like week, week
and a half, and they didn'tupdate the training program that
(22:38):
I had spent like three hours orfour hours working on.
So making sure that it's, thatit's up to date, that it's
relevant to your assignment, allthose things kind of kick in
and help amplify the effect.
Of course time, all thosethings kind of kick in and help
amplify the effect.
Of course time and the hospitalapplication.
I probably spent more like 20,20, 60 trying to get up to speed
(23:01):
with all the technology theywanted me to learn.
So, yeah, you can see a realcause and effect when you have a
good training program and thatclassroom is really pretty
involved and pretty well plannedout.
Greg, have you had theexperience that side of it in
terms of how 70-20 piece of itactually played out, the
(23:26):
ever-famous trial by fire sideof it?
Speaker 1 (23:28):
So I've been fortunate to be working for
companies that have prettyrobust learning and development
departments and familiarity withCenter for Creative Leadership.
So it's you know I canunderstand where that trial by
fire approach could happen.
But I've just been blessed thatthe companies I work for in
fact one company I work for wassmaller, and then when I came to
the company I said, greg, weneed a training program.
I mean, they asked me for that.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
Oh yeah, there you go .
Speaker 1 (23:50):
Besides, you know, shoring up our benefits in our
comp program and other things iswe need a training program.
So obviously things like the70-20-10 rule are in my mind,
because it's going to involveother folks.
It's not just going to be meand my two-person department.
It's going to require managersto participate and learn how to
(24:12):
coach and mentor and giveassignments and, you know,
monitor assignments.
So I've just been prettyfortunate to work in
organizations that provided somelevel of framework for 70-20-10
.
Speaker 2 (24:17):
Yeah, and the humor I got.
I remember my days of being amechanic.
It was pull your toolbox out ofthe trailer and good luck.
What kind of job you're dealingwith.
That leader could have done alittle bit more to help me out
with the transition.
So I think we kind of covered alittle bit about the training
program and a little bit of yourexpectations as a leader, and
(24:41):
the 70-20-10 is a wonderfulmathematical answer on what you
should be looking at and whatyou should be doing.
If it doesn't exist in theorganization that you work for
right now, you should be workingon trying to develop it,
because it has a wonderfuleffect in terms of keeping
employees and helping employeesgrow.
(25:01):
Giving them a good start isalways the key.
So, if you like what you'veheard, I have a book Building
your Leadership Toolbox.
It's available on Amazon andBarnes Noble the podcast is what
you're listening to and also onthe formats of Apple, google
and Spotify.
Thank you.
A lot of our discussionssometimes are based on the MBR
(25:27):
program by Dr Durst and you canfind his information on
successgrowthacademycom and youcan find his information on
successgrowthacademycom.
If you'd like to get a hold ofus, my email address is
wando75.jw at gmailcom and Greg.
Speaker 1 (25:44):
I can be reached at gpowell374 at gmailcom.
Speaker 2 (25:49):
And the music has been brought to you by my
grandson.
So thank you for listening.
We want to hear from you.
Drop us a line and uh, yeah sothanks greg, thanks john, as
always next time yeah.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Ridiculous History
History is beautiful, brutal and, often, ridiculous. Join Ben Bowlin and Noel Brown as they dive into some of the weirdest stories from across the span of human civilization in Ridiculous History, a podcast by iHeartRadio.