May 30, 2025 • 24 mins
Difficult and toxic employees can devastate workplace morale, crush productivity, and drive your best talent out the door. Join John and Greg's conversation as they explore the article: Dealing with Difficult Employees by Michelle McGovern, HR Morning, from March 2023, as she highlights the alarming reality that 70% of employees have quit jobs because of problematic colleagues, with research showing that toxic culture is ten times more likely to cause turnover than compensation issues.
We break down five distinct types of difficult employees you've undoubtedly encountered: the blame-shifting colleague who refuses accountability, the ego-driven know-it-all resistant to feedback, the perpetual victim who sees sabotage everywhere, the bully creating tension through direct or passive-aggressive behaviors, and the productivity-killing slacker always seeking to do less. For each personality type, we provide concrete management strategies with practical dialogue examples to help you navigate these challenging dynamics.
The episode distinguishes between merely difficult employees (who can still be reasoned with) and truly toxic individuals who actively undermine workplace culture. We emphasize the critical importance of swift intervention, thorough documentation, and clear boundary-setting when addressing problematic behaviors. Through real-world examples from our own management experiences—including one particularly dramatic confrontation with a union contract-wielding employee and another near-physical altercation—we illustrate both effective and ineffective approaches to handling workplace toxicity.
Whether you're dealing with subtle passive-aggression or outright hostility, this episode provides a roadmap for addressing difficult behaviors before they infect your entire organization. Our straightforward advice will help you protect team morale while developing the confidence to take necessary action, even when that means making the difficult decision to terminate a toxic employee. Listen for practical strategies you can implement immediately to create a healthier, more productive workplace culture.
Presented by John Wandolowski and Greg Powell
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Well, welcome to our podcast, Success Secrets and
Stories.
I'm your host, john Winooski,and I'm here with my co-host and
friend, greg Powell.
Greg, hey everybody, yeah, sotoday we're going to talk about
managing people.
To be a little bit morespecific, managing difficult
people, and the best definitionof an employee that is difficult
(00:41):
is an individual whose behaviorcreates problems in a workplace
, often negatively impactingproduction, morale and team
dynamics.
These employees can exhibitvarious behavior issues, ranging
from chronic negativity to poorperformance or disruptive
actions, or to lack ofcooperation.
I think the short version wouldbe a pain in the you-know-what
(01:07):
and we all have thoseexperiences, and I think the
most important thing is numberone is to recognize them and
number two, to address it, andthat's what we're going to talk
about a little bit.
So the article is actually reinin your most difficult
employees.
From an HR perspective.
It isn't to fire them theinstant that they've been
identified.
(01:27):
It's to work with them to finda way for them to try to move
beyond some of theircharacteristics.
And the article was written byMichelle Ngoverin from HR
Morning and it was published onMarch 31st 2023.
Rein in your most difficultemployees.
She starts out with thesearen't employees that cause
(01:50):
legal trouble as much asharassment or bias.
They are employees whofrustrate their managers, drive
their co-workers crazy and oftenspark negativity in their work
environment.
They are culture killers.
In fact, 70% of the employeessay that they have quit jobs
because of difficult co-workers,bosses or managers, and more
(02:14):
than 80% of the employees saythat a difficult colleague has
slowed down or completelystopped work.
According to the research byZoom Shift, the most difficult
employees don't just annoyothers.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
They hurt productivity, greg.
So, john, there's five reallyattributes of most difficult
employees and we're going totalk to you about how to handle
them as well.
The first one we call theblamer, right, you remember when
we were talking about NBRbefore the blame game?
Right, it's never the blamer'sfault.
In fact, it's always somebodyelse's fault.
He or she loves to pointfingers, or, often, before
(02:57):
anyone asks what happened, he orshe won't be accountable.
So, from a strategy standpoint,focus on the facts, whether
you're trying to get her to takeresponsibility for an error, be
specific with behaviors, times,places and definitely what are
your expectations.
For instance, you finish theinspection at noon.
(03:18):
The machine broke down at 1210,and the problem was on a part
you inspected.
You missed a checkpoint, andI'd like to review the process
with you now.
Again, very clear about thebehaviors and things that you
don't want repeated.
The second one are the mostdifficult employees.
It's the person with the ego.
In MBR terms, that's theachievement.
(03:40):
This person's full ofthemselves.
They know everything that needsto be known about the job.
The company, operations Justask them, right, often reluctant
to hear feedback and makechanges because, well, hey, they
know everything.
So your strategy should besomething like this Conflict
them on their ideas andinitiatives, those that are
really positive and constructive.
(04:00):
Then maintain your authority,by holding the feet to the fire,
to act on all the ideas.
So right, you got all thesegreat ideas.
Make them happen.
So, for instance, you're ontosomething with your thoughts
about the problems in ourbilling system and suggesting
that we overhaul it.
I'd like to see three proposalsfrom you for the benefits
analysis of each by next Friday.
(04:21):
I think you're kind of gettingthe drift there, right.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
Right, and what's interesting is that the
management sometimes reflect thepeople at the same time.
So, as much as they can bedifficult, I think the next one
is one of those examples.
When I think of management andwho has been in this kind of
category as victim, mbr uses theterm unconscious and the victim
(04:44):
thinks that nothing he has doneor she has done is wrong.
If something goes wrong it'sbecause others have sabotaged
them or often are holdingsomething that they did years
ago against them and thereforehe's not going to have, or she's
going to have, a successful day.
Your strategy is to empathizewithout enabling To help.
(05:07):
If he or she believes that theyare a victim, listen to their
issues, acknowledge theirfeelings, but stop short of
validating them.
Encourage them to take action.
I understand that you're upset.
Chase was picked for thisproject.
You weren't.
It would be a good idea if youoffer help in gathering research
(05:29):
, since the data is your strongpoint.
So part of the challenge withthe unconscious is to engage
them.
The next is the bully, or, asMBR would call it, the
conformist.
Some bullies just are mean, asMBR would call it the conformist
.
Some bullies just are mean.
Others are passive-aggressive.
I think passive-aggressive isthe ones I've run into the most
(05:58):
Are able to push around othersand undermine them Even worse.
Many of them don't necessarilybreak rules.
Instead, their toxicpersonalities put people on edge
and create a state ofunhappiness.
Your strategy Tackle the bullystraight on, because if you
don't, it can turn intoharassment and lawsuits.
Point out the behaviors,incidents and results.
Explain consequences for thebehavior.
(06:20):
For instance, you shouted threetimes during our meeting.
People were upset.
If you shout again, I'm goingto pull you off the team and
note that this is the firststrike.
Offense Two more and you can befired.
So you're not only trying toaddress the problem, you're
talking about consequences.
(06:43):
The last one is the slacker or,as MBR puts it, the
self-protective.
The biggest problem with theslacker is they don't
necessarily care that they areadding no value to your group.
They do the minimum and theylook for reasons to do less.
Your strategy more structure.
Slackers need specific goalsquantities, quality, timing.
(07:10):
Instead of setting goals thatplay to the slacker's strength,
make sure that you're makinggoals that are clear and
apparent.
For instance, sid, I want youto make 11 customer calls by
noon today.
At least half must result in asale.
How will you make it happen.
You're stepping back, you'regiving time, you're giving goals
(07:33):
, you're giving quantities.
You're telling a slacker thething that they don't like
specifics filed under the termsof being performance management.
That's how you have the abilityto try to help that person take
that next step.
Now, former employees that Ihave dealt I've had the
(07:54):
unfortunate opportunity to saythat I've worked with all of
them and I've seen them actuallydestroy organizations and take
on the next step or, if they'rejust ingrained in how they're
(08:15):
doing their jobs, like thepeople that I've dealt with,
like victims, are just going towalk their way into the point of
being fired, and you have tohave the ability to take that
next step.
Start with the premise ofgetting them to work and helping
them to understand change, butat the end of the day, you have
(08:36):
to do the right thing for theorganization.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
Greg.
So, john, early in my career Ihad an opportunity to work with
a slacker All right, and thiswas in a shift situation, shift
operations.
We were on third shift, so notall the departments were working
in the building at nighttime.
This young man was built forcomfort, he was cool, he was
smooth and he was very subtleand he knew how to make a cameo
appearance right with a groupand at his workstation and then
(09:03):
quietly slip away.
I had to be honest, I waspretty much a neophyte as a
supervisor.
Back then, a fellow employeeratted him out and gave me his
location of where he would hide.
So I was waiting for him at hishiding place and I told him.
I looked him right in the eye,I said I'm giving you a verbal
warning because you need to beengaged in this job and you need
to be responsible.
(09:23):
And then I said if this happensagain, you will be terminated.
That scared the mess out of him.
He was never an all-staremployee, but he became reliable
, which is really all I neededfrom him.
So let's talk about toxicemployees.
Yes, there are difficultemployees, but then there's
(09:46):
those toxic employees thatreally can disturb your culture.
So Revealio Labs they're aprovider of workplace
intelligence, analyzed 34million online employee profiles
, as well as company reviews, toidentify US workers who left
their jobs for any particularreason, and the timeline was
between April and September of2021.
And they put down the reasonswhy those folks left.
Toxic corporate culture was thenumber one reason why most
(10:09):
employees left their jobs duringthat time frame.
In contrast, how frequently andpositively employees mentioned
compensation, that ranks 16th inpredicting employee turnover.
A toxic corporate culture wasmore than 10 times as likely as
compensation to predict abusiness attrition rate compared
to its industry peers.
Again, the toxicity is justthat damaging and can be to a
(10:29):
company.
Let's talk about how infectioustoxicity could be, though
there's no doubt that toxicculture can flow from the top
down right.
We can blame it on the CEO, theC-suite, whomever.
It may also originate withinrank and file workers.
Employees who are toxic can maketheir colleagues feel
uncomfortable, they can damageproductivity and morale, and
(10:54):
they can lead to other workersbecoming disengaged,
disenchanted and ultimatelyquitting their jobs.
Right, you know how hard it isto get those workers in there.
You don't want to lose them forreasons like that.
So, according to Lisa Sterling,she's the chief people officer
at Perceptix Incorporated.
A provider of employeelistening and people analytics
out of California.
A provider of employeelistening and people analytics
out of California.
A toxic employee is continuallydisruptive, complains about
(11:17):
leadership and does not getalong well with other employees.
Behaviors demonstrated by toxicemployees include things like
this total withdrawal, lack ofengagement, higher frustration
than one might be perceived asnormal, very easily agitated,
very sensitive.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
They don't really have any pride in their work
right and they complain aboutthe organizational leadership.
That's what Sterling had to say.
Yeah, how about the toxicversus the difficult, which is
worthwhile to talk about?
Because there is a difference.
While some employees may betruly toxic, it's important for
leaders to keep in mind thatthere is a distinction between
the two.
It's important for leaders tokeep in mind that there is a
distinction between the two.
For one thing, difficultemployees may be more likely to
hear managers out.
(12:04):
Toxic employees differ fromdifficult employees based on the
notion that difficult employeescan be reasoned with and are
open to conversations regardingtheir affected behavior.
If an employee is remote, itmay be harder to determine
whether they're acting as atoxic manner or as being
difficult.
According to Libby, somebehaviors to watch out for also
(12:27):
include verbally micromanagingothers during group calls and
initiating gossip with otherattendees via the chat.
These actions can be toxic andquickly bring down morale.
As with every work managementleader, they must outline
(12:48):
behavior, performance andcommunication expectations from
the start.
Jennifer Libby, kansas City,missouri-based district manager
for an HR consultant firm,inspiree, echoes that same
sentiment.
Toxic employees can beidentified as individuals who
exhibit behavior possessing ofput-down spirit and continuously
(13:12):
making an effort to disruptmorale.
Toxicity tips.
Managers who know how to handletoxicity or a toxic employee
have the prerogative to solveissues before they get out of
hand are more than likely ableto cultivate peace in the
(13:33):
workplace.
I think that there should be alittle note here.
You have to act on it quickly.
It can't be left to fester.
Here are some of the ways to dothat and again, the point is
address it the behavior, rightaway, regardless of whether the
employee is toxic or difficult,remote or in person.
Managers should take swiftaction to intervene before the
(13:57):
behavior drives down the moraleof the department or the
organization as a whole.
Waiting until they can disruptothers can create far more
problems and cause retentionissues.
With your best, people, documenteverything.
Exclamation point to that.
To protect every party involved, include the company that
they're working for.
(14:17):
Managers should thoroughlydocument what is going on and to
create a record Should actionneed to be taken against the
employee.
It is important and imperativefor leadership and management to
have proper documentation ofthe issue, take steps to
understand and address it andwhat were the disciplinary
(14:41):
actions that were taken.
It's also vital for managers torecord those steps that they
have taken to address theemployee's behavior.
At the same time, listen to theemployee and any issues that
they may have with otheremployees issues that they may
(15:01):
have with other employees.
As Libby puts it that the toxicbehavior has been identified,
it could be helpful to separatethe employees from each other,
which means a different deskarrangement or different shifts.
All the solutions should bedocumented.
She adds that the managershould also detail the services
or the resources they give to atoxic employee and how they did
or didn't change in response.
(15:22):
So, greg, I think you have moretoxicity tips.
Speaker 1 (15:25):
I do, john, thank you .
So the first thing is confrontthe employee directly.
Right, we've been talking alittle bit about that.
Managers should personallyconfront the employee in
question one-on-one, to makesure they give them a chance to
address their toxic behavior.
The behavior could be due toissues with leadership or
individuals in the workplace,private matters outside of work
(15:46):
and the home.
In some instances, the employeemay lack the self-awareness to
see that the harm they're doingby their behavior is really
hurting colleagues.
Libby says when addressingconcerns, foster a space of
honest and open communication.
Libby says when addressingconcerns, foster a space of
honest, open communication.
Now Krasaw suggests thatmanagers set limits and
consequences for the behavior ofthe employee in question.
(16:06):
Companies should also offerhelp via internal mentoring,
external coaching.
We're talking about employeesthat are really valuable right
that you want to salvage.
If the abrasive employee canturn around their interactive
style, fantastic.
If they can't, it's time to go.
So Kara Shortsleeve, co-founderand CEO of the Leadership
Consortium, which produces aleadership development platform
(16:29):
in Massachusetts, says managersshould give the individual
direct and specific feedback andmake your expectations clear.
And you can say things likethis behavior is not acceptable
on our team, just call it out.
And even if an employee bringstremendous value to a company,
they can also cost it a greatdeal.
(16:49):
John, you have an example ofperhaps a difficult employee.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
I do.
I had worked in a facilitiesenvironment and we had a number
of engineers that wereassociated with the boiler room
and the boiler room was a verycomplex version in his shirt
pocket and he was constantlylike pulling this out and
(17:23):
talking to his leads and hissupervisor on a regular basis on
how this complies to the unionrequirements or not, and he and
he treated it like a Bible.
If it wasn't in the unioncontract he wasn't going to do
it and he made the workenvironment just impossible for
people to get along.
Everybody knew that he was Idon't know the term bully,
(17:49):
blamer and slacker all appliedto this guy.
It was unbelievable and peoplewho were in this toxic kind of
environment they put up with itfor years.
I walked in and understood thathis case file in the HR
department was almost two inchesthick.
I mean, when I just started toread a little bit about the
individual, it was like years ofhis behavior that has been
(18:13):
documented but no one took anyaction.
Well, it wasn't too long intohis time that I was working
there at the same time that hestarted to harass one of the
supervisors and he did somethingthat was bizarre to try to
describe, but it was like achest bump and kept on chest
bumping and shouting.
(18:34):
And let's just say that itwasn't the being that close.
Shouting is not a good idea.
Make a long story short.
I pulled him in and I fired himfor being physically abusive to
leadership in terms of strikingleadership.
And he said well, how can thatbe?
I was chest bumping him abouthow he was asking me to do a
(18:58):
task that is not part of ourunion requirement and I stopped
him and I said and this was thepart that was probably
inappropriate but I brought thesame weapon that he used to me
and I read from the unioncontract what it was that was
considered fighting on the joband how he took responsibility.
Since it was only him that wasinitiating the contact, he was
(19:23):
fired on the spot.
He was fired on the spot.
It was the frustration in hisface of realizing that this
contract was his weapon againsteveryone and I took it away from
him and I used it to addresshim.
He was a toxic employee foryears.
It needed to be addressed and Itook care of that early on in
my career, not allowing himmultiple occasions and giving
(19:47):
him another chance and anotherchance.
This was it.
He stepped over the line.
He made one of those kind ofinfractions that there is no
black and there is no gray.
It was black and white.
So firing people who are inthis position that show a
history of doing it needs to bedone, because the effect on the
rest of the team was, as we'vebeen talking about, affecting
(20:10):
everyone, and the comments of ifyou're not going to do anything
with him, we're going to have aharder time dealing with the
rest that are somewhatfrustrated.
It just multiplies.
So, bottom line, you have to doyour job.
Greg, I think you have anotherexample.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
I do, john.
This is one I'm not necessarilyproud of.
I will call it definitely alearning opportunity.
But during one of my firstsupervisory experiences I had an
employee I inherited, despisedall members of management and
had been at the company over 10years and so I was on one shift,
he was on the next shift and hewould come in literally right
before his shift started.
So he had a starting time andhe wasn't going to do anything
early to help with the overlapor whatever.
(20:51):
But as soon as he hit the doorhe's complaining about what my
shift our previous shift haddone wrong and how we had left
the work area in a bad place.
He had a lot of experience.
Scary smart guy.
He could do the job backwards,but he didn't like training
people.
Scary smart guy he could do thejob backwards, but he didn't
like training people.
He definitely didn't likementoring people.
He made it his quest toembarrass and undermine
supervisors.
He just hated supervisors,leaders, managers, and we were
(21:15):
not a union shot.
I was really junior in mysupervisor experience.
Again, I'm not proud of this,but one day I had enough and he
knew what to push and he pushedthem.
I exploded inside but I lungedtowards him and we both had to
be restrained Again.
I'm not proud of this, but I'mtelling you how far it can go,
how tough it can be.
So fortunately no blows wereexchanged.
(21:37):
Cooler has prevailed.
I was given a verbal warning asa supervisor, as I should have
been, and he was as well.
But I quickly recognized thiswas a life lesson.
I took it to heart.
So it's never easy.
There's not always a quick fixsolution, but again, I learned
over time, john.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
So the whole part of management, the reason that we
do this podcast, is to talkabout the things that are
important for you as you look atyour career and what is those
expectations as you look at yourcareer and what is those
expectations, you're not goingto experience the leadership
responsibility without havingthat moment in time where
somebody's going to have to befired.
(22:15):
Looking the other way is onlycompounding the problem.
Address the problem straight onand it's the easiest answer.
No one enjoys firing anyone.
Even the example that Greg wastalking about, where you're
coming to, blows.
The bottom line is they have afamily, you have a family.
It isn't something that shouldbe flippant.
(22:38):
It should be thought out and Ithink that's the biggest
challenge for anyone inleadership understanding that
you've gone to the limit and youneed to take that next action
to terminate.
So I hope that what we'vetalked about has helped you and
it makes some sense in terms ofwhat you need to do to take that
leadership travel that we'vetalked about over these many
(23:01):
podcasts.
So thank you for everyone who'shelped us with the trail.
But if you like what you'veheard, yeah, we have a.
I have a book on leadership atamazoncom building your
leadership toolbox.
You're listening to our podcaston whatever format, thank you,
but it's also available on Appleand Google and Spotify and a
(23:22):
whole bunch of other ones.
So tell your friends.
Apple and Google and Spotifyand a whole bunch of other ones,
so tell your friends.
We also talk a lot about DrDurson, his MBR program, and you
can find that information atsuccessgrowthacademycom.
And if you want to get a holdof us, we have a website at
(23:43):
wwwauthorjawcom, and the musichas been brought to you by my
grandson.
So thank you so much forgetting a hold of us.
We still want to hear from you.
You help us with our programs,you help us with our subjects
and our titles, but most of all,we know that we're hitting the
mark and you have found ourpodcast is being helpful, and
that's probably the best part.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
Well, greg thanks, thanks, john, as always.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
Next time yeah.
Well, welcome to our podcast, Success Secrets and
Stories.
I'm your host, john Winooski,and I'm here with my co-host and
friend, greg Powell.
Greg, hey everybody, yeah, sotoday we're going to talk about
managing people.
To be a little bit morespecific, managing difficult
people, and the best definitionof an employee that is difficult
(00:41):
is an individual whose behaviorcreates problems in a workplace
, often negatively impactingproduction, morale and team
dynamics.
These employees can exhibitvarious behavior issues, ranging
from chronic negativity to poorperformance or disruptive
actions, or to lack ofcooperation.
I think the short version wouldbe a pain in the you-know-what
(01:07):
and we all have thoseexperiences, and I think the
most important thing is numberone is to recognize them and
number two, to address it, andthat's what we're going to talk
about a little bit.
So the article is actually reinin your most difficult
employees.
From an HR perspective.
It isn't to fire them theinstant that they've been
identified.
(01:27):
It's to work with them to finda way for them to try to move
beyond some of theircharacteristics.
And the article was written byMichelle Ngoverin from HR
Morning and it was published onMarch 31st 2023.
Rein in your most difficultemployees.
She starts out with thesearen't employees that cause
(01:50):
legal trouble as much asharassment or bias.
They are employees whofrustrate their managers, drive
their co-workers crazy and oftenspark negativity in their work
environment.
They are culture killers.
In fact, 70% of the employeessay that they have quit jobs
because of difficult co-workers,bosses or managers, and more
(02:14):
than 80% of the employees saythat a difficult colleague has
slowed down or completelystopped work.
According to the research byZoom Shift, the most difficult
employees don't just annoyothers.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
They hurt productivity, greg.
So, john, there's five reallyattributes of most difficult
employees and we're going totalk to you about how to handle
them as well.
The first one we call theblamer, right, you remember when
we were talking about NBRbefore the blame game?
Right, it's never the blamer'sfault.
In fact, it's always somebodyelse's fault.
He or she loves to pointfingers, or, often, before
(02:57):
anyone asks what happened, he orshe won't be accountable.
So, from a strategy standpoint,focus on the facts, whether
you're trying to get her to takeresponsibility for an error, be
specific with behaviors, times,places and definitely what are
your expectations.
For instance, you finish theinspection at noon.
(03:18):
The machine broke down at 1210,and the problem was on a part
you inspected.
You missed a checkpoint, andI'd like to review the process
with you now.
Again, very clear about thebehaviors and things that you
don't want repeated.
The second one are the mostdifficult employees.
It's the person with the ego.
In MBR terms, that's theachievement.
(03:40):
This person's full ofthemselves.
They know everything that needsto be known about the job.
The company, operations Justask them, right, often reluctant
to hear feedback and makechanges because, well, hey, they
know everything.
So your strategy should besomething like this Conflict
them on their ideas andinitiatives, those that are
really positive and constructive.
(04:00):
Then maintain your authority,by holding the feet to the fire,
to act on all the ideas.
So right, you got all thesegreat ideas.
Make them happen.
So, for instance, you're ontosomething with your thoughts
about the problems in ourbilling system and suggesting
that we overhaul it.
I'd like to see three proposalsfrom you for the benefits
analysis of each by next Friday.
(04:21):
I think you're kind of gettingthe drift there, right.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
Right, and what's interesting is that the
management sometimes reflect thepeople at the same time.
So, as much as they can bedifficult, I think the next one
is one of those examples.
When I think of management andwho has been in this kind of
category as victim, mbr uses theterm unconscious and the victim
(04:44):
thinks that nothing he has doneor she has done is wrong.
If something goes wrong it'sbecause others have sabotaged
them or often are holdingsomething that they did years
ago against them and thereforehe's not going to have, or she's
going to have, a successful day.
Your strategy is to empathizewithout enabling To help.
(05:07):
If he or she believes that theyare a victim, listen to their
issues, acknowledge theirfeelings, but stop short of
validating them.
Encourage them to take action.
I understand that you're upset.
Chase was picked for thisproject.
You weren't.
It would be a good idea if youoffer help in gathering research
(05:29):
, since the data is your strongpoint.
So part of the challenge withthe unconscious is to engage
them.
The next is the bully, or, asMBR would call it, the
conformist.
Some bullies just are mean, asMBR would call it the conformist
.
Some bullies just are mean.
Others are passive-aggressive.
I think passive-aggressive isthe ones I've run into the most
(05:58):
Are able to push around othersand undermine them Even worse.
Many of them don't necessarilybreak rules.
Instead, their toxicpersonalities put people on edge
and create a state ofunhappiness.
Your strategy Tackle the bullystraight on, because if you
don't, it can turn intoharassment and lawsuits.
Point out the behaviors,incidents and results.
Explain consequences for thebehavior.
(06:20):
For instance, you shouted threetimes during our meeting.
People were upset.
If you shout again, I'm goingto pull you off the team and
note that this is the firststrike.
Offense Two more and you can befired.
So you're not only trying toaddress the problem, you're
talking about consequences.
(06:43):
The last one is the slacker or,as MBR puts it, the
self-protective.
The biggest problem with theslacker is they don't
necessarily care that they areadding no value to your group.
They do the minimum and theylook for reasons to do less.
Your strategy more structure.
Slackers need specific goalsquantities, quality, timing.
(07:10):
Instead of setting goals thatplay to the slacker's strength,
make sure that you're makinggoals that are clear and
apparent.
For instance, sid, I want youto make 11 customer calls by
noon today.
At least half must result in asale.
How will you make it happen.
You're stepping back, you'regiving time, you're giving goals
(07:33):
, you're giving quantities.
You're telling a slacker thething that they don't like
specifics filed under the termsof being performance management.
That's how you have the abilityto try to help that person take
that next step.
Now, former employees that Ihave dealt I've had the
(07:54):
unfortunate opportunity to saythat I've worked with all of
them and I've seen them actuallydestroy organizations and take
on the next step or, if they'rejust ingrained in how they're
(08:15):
doing their jobs, like thepeople that I've dealt with,
like victims, are just going towalk their way into the point of
being fired, and you have tohave the ability to take that
next step.
Start with the premise ofgetting them to work and helping
them to understand change, butat the end of the day, you have
(08:36):
to do the right thing for theorganization.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
Greg.
So, john, early in my career Ihad an opportunity to work with
a slacker All right, and thiswas in a shift situation, shift
operations.
We were on third shift, so notall the departments were working
in the building at nighttime.
This young man was built forcomfort, he was cool, he was
smooth and he was very subtleand he knew how to make a cameo
appearance right with a groupand at his workstation and then
(09:03):
quietly slip away.
I had to be honest, I waspretty much a neophyte as a
supervisor.
Back then, a fellow employeeratted him out and gave me his
location of where he would hide.
So I was waiting for him at hishiding place and I told him.
I looked him right in the eye,I said I'm giving you a verbal
warning because you need to beengaged in this job and you need
to be responsible.
(09:23):
And then I said if this happensagain, you will be terminated.
That scared the mess out of him.
He was never an all-staremployee, but he became reliable
, which is really all I neededfrom him.
So let's talk about toxicemployees.
Yes, there are difficultemployees, but then there's
(09:46):
those toxic employees thatreally can disturb your culture.
So Revealio Labs they're aprovider of workplace
intelligence, analyzed 34million online employee profiles
, as well as company reviews, toidentify US workers who left
their jobs for any particularreason, and the timeline was
between April and September of2021.
And they put down the reasonswhy those folks left.
Toxic corporate culture was thenumber one reason why most
(10:09):
employees left their jobs duringthat time frame.
In contrast, how frequently andpositively employees mentioned
compensation, that ranks 16th inpredicting employee turnover.
A toxic corporate culture wasmore than 10 times as likely as
compensation to predict abusiness attrition rate compared
to its industry peers.
Again, the toxicity is justthat damaging and can be to a
(10:29):
company.
Let's talk about how infectioustoxicity could be, though
there's no doubt that toxicculture can flow from the top
down right.
We can blame it on the CEO, theC-suite, whomever.
It may also originate withinrank and file workers.
Employees who are toxic can maketheir colleagues feel
uncomfortable, they can damageproductivity and morale, and
(10:54):
they can lead to other workersbecoming disengaged,
disenchanted and ultimatelyquitting their jobs.
Right, you know how hard it isto get those workers in there.
You don't want to lose them forreasons like that.
So, according to Lisa Sterling,she's the chief people officer
at Perceptix Incorporated.
A provider of employeelistening and people analytics
out of California.
A provider of employeelistening and people analytics
out of California.
A toxic employee is continuallydisruptive, complains about
(11:17):
leadership and does not getalong well with other employees.
Behaviors demonstrated by toxicemployees include things like
this total withdrawal, lack ofengagement, higher frustration
than one might be perceived asnormal, very easily agitated,
very sensitive.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
They don't really have any pride in their work
right and they complain aboutthe organizational leadership.
That's what Sterling had to say.
Yeah, how about the toxicversus the difficult, which is
worthwhile to talk about?
Because there is a difference.
While some employees may betruly toxic, it's important for
leaders to keep in mind thatthere is a distinction between
the two.
It's important for leaders tokeep in mind that there is a
distinction between the two.
For one thing, difficultemployees may be more likely to
hear managers out.
(12:04):
Toxic employees differ fromdifficult employees based on the
notion that difficult employeescan be reasoned with and are
open to conversations regardingtheir affected behavior.
If an employee is remote, itmay be harder to determine
whether they're acting as atoxic manner or as being
difficult.
According to Libby, somebehaviors to watch out for also
(12:27):
include verbally micromanagingothers during group calls and
initiating gossip with otherattendees via the chat.
These actions can be toxic andquickly bring down morale.
As with every work managementleader, they must outline
(12:48):
behavior, performance andcommunication expectations from
the start.
Jennifer Libby, kansas City,missouri-based district manager
for an HR consultant firm,inspiree, echoes that same
sentiment.
Toxic employees can beidentified as individuals who
exhibit behavior possessing ofput-down spirit and continuously
(13:12):
making an effort to disruptmorale.
Toxicity tips.
Managers who know how to handletoxicity or a toxic employee
have the prerogative to solveissues before they get out of
hand are more than likely ableto cultivate peace in the
(13:33):
workplace.
I think that there should be alittle note here.
You have to act on it quickly.
It can't be left to fester.
Here are some of the ways to dothat and again, the point is
address it the behavior, rightaway, regardless of whether the
employee is toxic or difficult,remote or in person.
Managers should take swiftaction to intervene before the
(13:57):
behavior drives down the moraleof the department or the
organization as a whole.
Waiting until they can disruptothers can create far more
problems and cause retentionissues.
With your best, people, documenteverything.
Exclamation point to that.
To protect every party involved, include the company that
they're working for.
(14:17):
Managers should thoroughlydocument what is going on and to
create a record Should actionneed to be taken against the
employee.
It is important and imperativefor leadership and management to
have proper documentation ofthe issue, take steps to
understand and address it andwhat were the disciplinary
(14:41):
actions that were taken.
It's also vital for managers torecord those steps that they
have taken to address theemployee's behavior.
At the same time, listen to theemployee and any issues that
they may have with otheremployees issues that they may
(15:01):
have with other employees.
As Libby puts it that the toxicbehavior has been identified,
it could be helpful to separatethe employees from each other,
which means a different deskarrangement or different shifts.
All the solutions should bedocumented.
She adds that the managershould also detail the services
or the resources they give to atoxic employee and how they did
or didn't change in response.
(15:22):
So, greg, I think you have moretoxicity tips.
Speaker 1 (15:25):
I do, john, thank you .
So the first thing is confrontthe employee directly.
Right, we've been talking alittle bit about that.
Managers should personallyconfront the employee in
question one-on-one, to makesure they give them a chance to
address their toxic behavior.
The behavior could be due toissues with leadership or
individuals in the workplace,private matters outside of work
(15:46):
and the home.
In some instances, the employeemay lack the self-awareness to
see that the harm they're doingby their behavior is really
hurting colleagues.
Libby says when addressingconcerns, foster a space of
honest and open communication.
Libby says when addressingconcerns, foster a space of
honest, open communication.
Now Krasaw suggests thatmanagers set limits and
consequences for the behavior ofthe employee in question.
(16:06):
Companies should also offerhelp via internal mentoring,
external coaching.
We're talking about employeesthat are really valuable right
that you want to salvage.
If the abrasive employee canturn around their interactive
style, fantastic.
If they can't, it's time to go.
So Kara Shortsleeve, co-founderand CEO of the Leadership
Consortium, which produces aleadership development platform
(16:29):
in Massachusetts, says managersshould give the individual
direct and specific feedback andmake your expectations clear.
And you can say things likethis behavior is not acceptable
on our team, just call it out.
And even if an employee bringstremendous value to a company,
they can also cost it a greatdeal.
(16:49):
John, you have an example ofperhaps a difficult employee.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
I do.
I had worked in a facilitiesenvironment and we had a number
of engineers that wereassociated with the boiler room
and the boiler room was a verycomplex version in his shirt
pocket and he was constantlylike pulling this out and
(17:23):
talking to his leads and hissupervisor on a regular basis on
how this complies to the unionrequirements or not, and he and
he treated it like a Bible.
If it wasn't in the unioncontract he wasn't going to do
it and he made the workenvironment just impossible for
people to get along.
Everybody knew that he was Idon't know the term bully,
(17:49):
blamer and slacker all appliedto this guy.
It was unbelievable and peoplewho were in this toxic kind of
environment they put up with itfor years.
I walked in and understood thathis case file in the HR
department was almost two inchesthick.
I mean, when I just started toread a little bit about the
individual, it was like years ofhis behavior that has been
(18:13):
documented but no one took anyaction.
Well, it wasn't too long intohis time that I was working
there at the same time that hestarted to harass one of the
supervisors and he did somethingthat was bizarre to try to
describe, but it was like achest bump and kept on chest
bumping and shouting.
(18:34):
And let's just say that itwasn't the being that close.
Shouting is not a good idea.
Make a long story short.
I pulled him in and I fired himfor being physically abusive to
leadership in terms of strikingleadership.
And he said well, how can thatbe?
I was chest bumping him abouthow he was asking me to do a
(18:58):
task that is not part of ourunion requirement and I stopped
him and I said and this was thepart that was probably
inappropriate but I brought thesame weapon that he used to me
and I read from the unioncontract what it was that was
considered fighting on the joband how he took responsibility.
Since it was only him that wasinitiating the contact, he was
(19:23):
fired on the spot.
He was fired on the spot.
It was the frustration in hisface of realizing that this
contract was his weapon againsteveryone and I took it away from
him and I used it to addresshim.
He was a toxic employee foryears.
It needed to be addressed and Itook care of that early on in
my career, not allowing himmultiple occasions and giving
(19:47):
him another chance and anotherchance.
This was it.
He stepped over the line.
He made one of those kind ofinfractions that there is no
black and there is no gray.
It was black and white.
So firing people who are inthis position that show a
history of doing it needs to bedone, because the effect on the
rest of the team was, as we'vebeen talking about, affecting
(20:10):
everyone, and the comments of ifyou're not going to do anything
with him, we're going to have aharder time dealing with the
rest that are somewhatfrustrated.
It just multiplies.
So, bottom line, you have to doyour job.
Greg, I think you have anotherexample.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
I do, john.
This is one I'm not necessarilyproud of.
I will call it definitely alearning opportunity.
But during one of my firstsupervisory experiences I had an
employee I inherited, despisedall members of management and
had been at the company over 10years and so I was on one shift,
he was on the next shift and hewould come in literally right
before his shift started.
So he had a starting time andhe wasn't going to do anything
early to help with the overlapor whatever.
(20:51):
But as soon as he hit the doorhe's complaining about what my
shift our previous shift haddone wrong and how we had left
the work area in a bad place.
He had a lot of experience.
Scary smart guy.
He could do the job backwards,but he didn't like training
people.
Scary smart guy he could do thejob backwards, but he didn't
like training people.
He definitely didn't likementoring people.
He made it his quest toembarrass and undermine
supervisors.
He just hated supervisors,leaders, managers, and we were
(21:15):
not a union shot.
I was really junior in mysupervisor experience.
Again, I'm not proud of this,but one day I had enough and he
knew what to push and he pushedthem.
I exploded inside but I lungedtowards him and we both had to
be restrained Again.
I'm not proud of this, but I'mtelling you how far it can go,
how tough it can be.
So fortunately no blows wereexchanged.
(21:37):
Cooler has prevailed.
I was given a verbal warning asa supervisor, as I should have
been, and he was as well.
But I quickly recognized thiswas a life lesson.
I took it to heart.
So it's never easy.
There's not always a quick fixsolution, but again, I learned
over time, john.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
So the whole part of management, the reason that we
do this podcast, is to talkabout the things that are
important for you as you look atyour career and what is those
expectations as you look at yourcareer and what is those
expectations, you're not goingto experience the leadership
responsibility without havingthat moment in time where
somebody's going to have to befired.
(22:15):
Looking the other way is onlycompounding the problem.
Address the problem straight onand it's the easiest answer.
No one enjoys firing anyone.
Even the example that Greg wastalking about, where you're
coming to, blows.
The bottom line is they have afamily, you have a family.
It isn't something that shouldbe flippant.
(22:38):
It should be thought out and Ithink that's the biggest
challenge for anyone inleadership understanding that
you've gone to the limit and youneed to take that next action
to terminate.
So I hope that what we'vetalked about has helped you and
it makes some sense in terms ofwhat you need to do to take that
leadership travel that we'vetalked about over these many
(23:01):
podcasts.
So thank you for everyone who'shelped us with the trail.
But if you like what you'veheard, yeah, we have a.
I have a book on leadership atamazoncom building your
leadership toolbox.
You're listening to our podcaston whatever format, thank you,
but it's also available on Appleand Google and Spotify and a
(23:22):
whole bunch of other ones.
So tell your friends.
Apple and Google and Spotifyand a whole bunch of other ones,
so tell your friends.
We also talk a lot about DrDurson, his MBR program, and you
can find that information atsuccessgrowthacademycom.
And if you want to get a holdof us, we have a website at
(23:43):
wwwauthorjawcom, and the musichas been brought to you by my
grandson.
So thank you so much forgetting a hold of us.
We still want to hear from you.
You help us with our programs,you help us with our subjects
and our titles, but most of all,we know that we're hitting the
mark and you have found ourpodcast is being helpful, and
that's probably the best part.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
Well, greg thanks, thanks, john, as always.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
Next time yeah.
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