November 28, 2025 • 23 mins
Leadership gets real when learning is baked into daily work. We explore how to turn existing systems—incident command drills, compliance training, audits, and planning cycles—into a living leadership lab that strengthens communication, trust, and decision-making without a massive budget. Drawing on deep healthcare experience, we break down how OSHA and FEMA-driven requirements create a common language across nursing, facilities, biomed, and administration, and how unified command with external partners builds clarity under pressure. The result isn’t just readiness for emergencies; it’s a culture where people grow through practice, feedback, and shared wins.
We share concrete ways to spotlight emerging talent: create lead roles, hand off sub-teams during drills, and give rising contributors exposure to executives. That visibility accelerates development, balances technical skill with communication, and builds a durable bench for succession planning. You’ll hear how consistent debriefs shift teams from finger-pointing to learning, why interdepartmental drills formalize collaboration, and how frequent reps become a feedback loop that powers advancement. The same playbook applies beyond hospitals: financial audits and annual reporting mirror incident command with defined roles, documented processes, spokespersons, and cross-functional coordination.
We also map embedded leadership in customer experience programs, crisis communication protocols, and strategic planning. Each provides structured reps for empathy, risk reduction, and narrative clarity. Throughout, we keep the focus simple and practical: treat recurring processes as practice fields, set clear roles, rehearse often, and measure outcomes to prove value. Want to build leaders where you stand? Start with the systems you already run and let culture carry strategy.
Presented by John Wandolowski and Greg Powell
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:13):
Well, hello, and welcome to our podcast, Success,
Secrets, and Stories.
I'm your host, John Wondolowski,and I'm here with my co-host and
friend, Greg Powell.
Greg?
Hey everybody.
And when we put together thispodcast, we wanted to put out a
helping hand and help that nextgeneration and help answer the
(00:35):
question of what does it mean tobe a leader?
Today we want to talk about asubject that I think supports
that concept.
So the term embedded leadershipis an interesting term.
And it really is saying thatthere's something already in
(00:56):
your culture, in your businessculture, that you could use as a
tool for leadership.
And more importantly, you wantto encourage continuous
education.
So looking for ways of utilizinguh leadership and leadership
development should never be aone-time event.
(01:17):
It should be a lifelong mindset.
Now, one of my interestingexperiences in the healthcare
industry was one of the clearestexamples of that mindset.
To shape an environment whereleaders is really trying to look
at development and going beyondwhat is the exception.
Healthcare demands constantadaptations.
(01:41):
And staying relevant requirescontinuous learning across
multiple domains, multipledepartments.
The best example of leadershipstarts with the understanding of
organizational legalrequirements and reporting
requirements.
And if you don't understandthose requirements that are core
to your job, you're probably notgoing to succeed overall.
SPEAKER_00 (02:06):
So I know your background, John, is rooted in
healthcare.
Can you expand on how theenvironment of compliance of
reporting requirements fosters aculture of learning?
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01 (02:18):
There are all kinds of continuous education
requirements within thehealthcare industry and
basically any kind oforganization.
There's OSHA requirements forladder safety and fire safety
and slipfalls that you have todo on a regular basis.
And then there's something alittle bit more involved, like
FEMA, that are doing things thatare associated with emergency
(02:42):
incident command.
And they're both driven asrequirements for your teams to
be trained on to understand therequirements.
But most of all, it's really tocreate the safest work
environment.
And in the hospital environment,it was the most healing
(03:04):
environment that you can create.
Those were all those generationsof what the government agencies
are really trying to accomplish.
And the sad part is a lot ofthat is generated from people
who have done damage or have hadincidents that had to be
addressed.
A lot of these requirements arecoming from that format of where
it has failed.
SPEAKER_00 (03:24):
You know, that sounds like an awful lot to
manage, John.
So let's break it down.
How does continuous educationapply specifically to the idea
of embedding leadership skills?
SPEAKER_01 (03:36):
Let me explain.
Continuous education inleadership isn't just about
formal education, it's aboutmentoring, peer learning,
cultivating curiosity.
Leaders must foster thatcooperation.
And especially in high pressuresituations, they have to be able
(03:58):
to find that common ground andthat common language.
Probably one of the bestexamples I've seen as far as
incident command training iswhere those department silos
start to dissolve into leadersfrom different departments like
nursing and facilities andbiomed and other departments
start to collaborate and createand resolve problems in real
(04:21):
time.
SPEAKER_00 (04:22):
So what you're suggesting is that incident
command should be treated as aregular training activity?
SPEAKER_01 (04:28):
Yes.
And it's a quarterlyrequirement, but I have seen
applications where they practicemonthly to ensure that the team
can demonstrate readiness forincident command.
But it's also a wonderfulopportunity to respond to
pressure and also see how theteam unifies rather than isolate
departments that are struggling.
(04:49):
That teamwork, that groundworkof leadership, communication,
adaptability starts to bedemonstrated in these kinds of
environments.
SPEAKER_00 (04:56):
So I can see, John, how management would use
incident command to strengthenleadership cooperation, team
building, compliance, alignment.
It makes total sense.
SPEAKER_01 (05:06):
Yeah, exactly.
And with healthcare rapidlychanging with technology and the
regulatory landscape, leadersmust constantly learn to stay
compliant and to be effective.
Incident command drills alsoreinforce interdepartmental
communication and they formalizeit.
And that is something that isboth a practice and a real skill
(05:28):
set that's needed in anemergency.
SPEAKER_00 (05:31):
So how does communication evolve across
different incident commandscenarios?
SPEAKER_01 (05:38):
And we've talked about that whole thing about
communication, how important itis.
And the whole thing of incidentcommand is a wonderful microcosm
of communication.
In some drills, externalagencies like the fire
department are involved.
And they actually create aparallel incident command
structure.
And then you see the example ofhow the hospital handles
(06:01):
incident command and how thefire department handles the
incident command, and then howthey coordinate as independent
resources and create a commongoal and a common approach.
All those things you're lookingfor as far as a leader, you have
a perfect teaching format rightthere in your hands that you
need to exercise with.
(06:22):
You need to try to bring otherpeople into that incident
command environment for them tolearn.
SPEAKER_00 (06:28):
So let's bring it back to that topic of
leadership.
How does this help leadersbecome more adaptive and
learning oriented?
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (06:37):
I guess that's kind of my point.
Incident command is more than adrill, it is really a leadership
lab.
It teaches that learning is acareer-long requirement.
It also builds relationshipsacross departments, giving
leaders a face-to-face and aname to associate it with roles
that they might never otherwiseengage in.
(07:01):
This connection acceleratestrust and collaboration because
they have some history and theyhave common goals that they both
share.
SPEAKER_00 (07:10):
So, John, thanks for explaining it the way you did.
Now I see why you emphasizeincident command.
It's a powerful tool for bothorganizational cohesion and
leadership development.
SPEAKER_01 (07:20):
Yeah, exactly.
And it's no accident that thefrequencies of these exercises
are sometimes tied directly tohow well a leader can
communicate and coordinate withtheir peers.
It's that feedback loop, thatpractice loop of involvement and
making sure that the leads areinvolved in deeper learning.
And the secret here is that ifyou don't do a good job in that
(07:44):
leadership role on incidentcommand, you might have a
limited opportunities foradvancement.
But if you do a great job ofleadership, it's also a
wonderful opportunity to proveto executive management that
you're ready for more.
I've always impressed uponindividuals that I want them to
succeed.
Their opinions and their talentsare what makes a lasting
(08:06):
difference by empowering them tolearn, to take ownership, not
only of their assignment, butthe environment in which they're
working in and influence thesurroundings.
We're cultivating thatleadership skill.
And from the ground up, incidentcommand is actually testing
everyone within thatenvironment.
(08:26):
Those people who actually areinvolved in a real incident
command will start to shinebecause they've learned this
process over time.
SPEAKER_00 (08:38):
And by setting that example, John, I'll bet the rest
of the staff began to adopt theapproach as well.
Is that what you saw?
I did.
SPEAKER_01 (08:46):
And that reinforcement, that idea of
personal responsibility, itoften shifted the conversation
towards staff development afterthe incident command event
happened.
I'd ask what they would need totake that next step, whether it
be technical training orbecoming better tradespeople,
and being able to communicateand express what they are trying
(09:09):
to do in that incident commandrole.
SPEAKER_00 (09:13):
So going through continuous education, you also
shifted the language.
It became more about what did welearn instead of who is a blame.
We've talked before about fingerpointing.
It eliminates that.
But what strikes me is how yourapproach models respect,
especially towards the mechanicor the technician and their
expertise.
(09:33):
The secret seems to be listeningand using that as a tool to
foster an adult learningmindset.
Exactly.
SPEAKER_01 (09:41):
And you put it perfectly.
That really is trying to pushthem to understand leadership in
a small level.
And then they're learning as ateam, and they have that shared
experience and knowledge thatthey've crafted from those
events.
It's that mutual learning, thatmutual trust that starts to
expand and actually grow.
SPEAKER_00 (10:03):
So you've also shared examples of more formal
ways to embed a culture oflearning, like developing SAT
through structured roles.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (10:13):
I've seen organizations actually elevate
support team members andentry-level supervisors on how
effective that they were able tohandle these events.
And what I did is I would takepeople who I thought had
potential and I would let themtake some of the lead in some of
those conversations and givethem a taste of leadership.
(10:35):
Sometimes I would put them incharge of facility subgroups so
that they would be able toreport to me and I could respond
to the executive team.
That really didn't cost anythingin terms of special training,
but it was so significant interms of exposure, not only
internally to our team to buildthat trust, but also for the
(10:56):
other department managers andsupervisors to see the skill set
that we had in our owndepartment.
SPEAKER_00 (11:02):
So let's wait a minute here.
You promoted people without amajor budget hit.
How did that work?
SPEAKER_01 (11:08):
Yeah, well, our structures were pretty small,
but when I made the suggestionof finding team leads rather
than just supervisors, weweren't talking about a huge
increase in pay.
And the payoff really was theway I presented it is that we
could reduce overtime, we couldexpand operational coverage, and
(11:29):
most of all, we could enhanceleadership influence.
A lot of what we're looking forin terms of hospitals or any
organization is helping thoseresponsibilities and helping
those key players understandwhat's required of them and kind
of like setting goals for themto achieve.
SPEAKER_00 (11:48):
So I'm going to go out on a limb here, but I think
you probably had to have thoseresults audited just to prove
the value you promised.
SPEAKER_01 (11:55):
Yeah, because people wanted to make sure that it was
worth the money.
And executives would ask melater just how was that being
accomplished?
Um what I really wanted to makesure is that they had clear
takeaways, that there was thisapproach to expanding leadership
responsibilities from thesesmall teams, and how that would
really be a benefit to thehospital 24-7 environment.
(12:20):
What I'm really talking abouthere is building a bench for
future advancement.
And that's something that wasmissing.
And that whole benchconversation is actually
something healthcare is dealingwith now.
Succession planning is critical.
This approach creates leadershipdepth without really excessive
spending.
(12:41):
And it's inspired otherdepartments to do the same thing
because it's really rooted incontinued learning and
continuous teaching.
SPEAKER_00 (12:50):
So, John, way back in the day, I heard the quote
culture eats strategy forbreakfast.
All right.
It's not just what you teach,but it's how you live what you
teach.
Your team lead strategy wentbeyond task completion.
It fostered listening, itfostered cohesion and leadership
from within.
And I imagine those leads had abetter feel for the trades.
(13:11):
So were they bettercommunicators or better
technicians?
SPEAKER_01 (13:15):
Well, that's kind of like the heart of it.
Most leads excel in one of thetwo areas.
Either they're very good atcommunicators or they're very
good technicians, but they'reusually, they don't have both of
those skills, and that's whatyou're trying to develop.
Every lead I have worked withwere always talented within the
(13:35):
business environment.
But they were never given avoice in the old management
structure to actually give theiropinion and be part of the
process.
Watching their eyes and justseeing the effect on their face
when they're sitting at thetable with executive management
getting their first chance togive their views and their
(13:56):
insights to an executive team,it's transformative.
And it's transformative for themand then for you.
Because you've had an actualhand in helping them take that
next step.
Many people that I have helpedadvance also learned that this
(14:17):
is a continual learning processand it's a leadership principle.
SPEAKER_00 (14:22):
So, John, you took the opportunity to provide
modeling for your supervisors,delegating responsibility and
giving them a voice.
Exactly.
SPEAKER_01 (14:30):
And I wanted my managers to have the same
opportunity so that they couldgrow and they would have the
exposure to executivemanagement.
So both the hourly and thesupervisory level are getting
that opportunity to take my rolesomeday.
And if you don't practice whatyou preach, it's never going to
give you that kind of returnthat you're looking for.
SPEAKER_00 (14:54):
So the incident command example and model looks
fantastic.
But what if your organizationdoesn't have something like
incident command?
SPEAKER_01 (15:01):
Yeah, well, I've worked in manufacturing and
higher ed and hospitalorganizations.
They actually all have incidentcommand.
And they have emergencies andthey have defined communication
roles.
Different organizations takeincident command, whether they
practice it, whether theyactually have executive
management involvement.
(15:22):
But sooner or later theyunderstand that there's a risk
involved.
And if they don't have incidentcommand, unfortunately, they
really do need to have somethingin place.
More importantly, executivemanagement has an opportunity to
test teams to see whether theycan handle real life
emergencies.
I can't think of an applicationwhere it wouldn't benefit an
(15:43):
organization to have incidentcommand procedures and
requirements defined.
SPEAKER_00 (15:49):
John, I can see the importance of that.
But any places where folks canfind this information, this
information associated withincident command, if it's
something that they've neverdone before?
SPEAKER_01 (16:00):
Yes, there are.
And really my favorite isincident command.
And incident uh command isactually uh governed by the
National Institute ManagementSystem, which is NIMS, which is
overseen by FEMA, FederalEmergency Management Agency.
And good grief, if you try toget any more acronyms in in the
(16:22):
business world, you're probablyin healthcare.
But if you're looking for theinformation, www.fema.gov is
actually the best place tostart.
And the real key here forIncident Command is hitting the
Incident Command Systems400-level classes.
(16:44):
And yes, there's a level 100, alevel 200, and a level 300.
But what they're really tryingto do is teach you some very
basic components of IncidentCommand, the command and general
structure and roles, to talkabout unified command or
multi-jurisdictional ormulti-agency incidents occur and
(17:08):
how those are handled.
Area command in terms ofstructure and responsibility,
complex incident managementstrategies to try to handle some
of the variables that you'regoing to see, and integral
coordination and communication.
Greg, have you ever heardcommunication more often than
when we talk about what isinvolved in management?
(17:31):
It's like the very basic of anyof these projects in terms of
learning.
Communication is probably themost important.
Now, upon completion, uhparticipants will understand
their role in terms of alarge-scale incident.
How to actually apply the ICSprinciples in terms of complex
(17:55):
applications.
But more importantly, tounderstand that coordinating
effectively with multipleagencies and jurisdictions
really requires to plan, tolead, to cooperate, and also be
part of the process.
(18:16):
It is a great format for peopleto understand.
It's like with my point, it's aleadership lab and it's all
there.
It's that soup that as soon asyou start to mix it, you
actually can use that as a toolof training.
SPEAKER_00 (18:30):
So in my world, specifically in human resources,
I didn't really have anapplication for incident
command.
We participated in biggerincident command situations if
there was a people issue oropportunity.
But can you give an office-basedexample of what would be
relevant here?
SPEAKER_01 (18:46):
Okay.
Yeah.
Uh probably uh moremanufacturing-based would be an
audit.
Whether it be a financial auditor a regulatory audit, they are
a structured leadershiprequirement that falls right
back into that continuouslearning uh side of the
business.
Take uh Sox Oxley compliance,for instance.
(19:07):
Organizations are trainingadministrators to understand the
spreadsheets, report protocol,and handle external
communication to meet the legalstandards.
That's all in incident command.
It's the same thing.
Even something as fundamental aspreparing an annual report
involves embedding leadership.
(19:29):
It's not just accounting, it'scoordinating across departments,
understanding profit and loss,and ensuring that every
contributor knows how their workfits into the bigger picture.
Training audits isn't a one-timeevent.
Teams rehearse the process,assign spokespeople, refine
communication to their auditors'expectations.
(19:51):
It's continuous learning inaction, especially when leaders
use it to reduce risk andimprove transparency.
SPEAKER_00 (19:58):
So, what you're really saying, John, is that
continuous learning applies inalmost any institution.
Exactly.
It's not just about compliance,it's about competency.
SPEAKER_01 (20:09):
Whether you're in healthcare or finance or
education or you're a technicianor you're a leader, you have all
these embedded systems that needand demand support, whether it's
accountability, adaptability, orcooperation, those are all those
skills that leadership has todemonstrate.
So additional examples ofembedded learning opportunities.
(20:31):
One of them is projectmanagement from my construction
days, where you have yourregular reviews and you have
leaders reflecting on the workand how they did it and how they
need to improve.
And these sessions are a cultureof feedback and those
interactive learningopportunities.
(20:52):
Strategic planning cycles whereyou're doing an annual plan.
Sometimes we did asset plans, wedid capital equipment
opportunities and capitalbuilding opportunities.
All those things are trends interms of market and forecasting
and team alignments.
And they're using tools likeS-BAR and MBR concepts that we
(21:15):
were we talked about in the pastas all part of their regular
routine of operations.
SPEAKER_00 (21:20):
So, from my experience, I've seen a few
other applications of embeddedleadership requirements.
So they would be as followscustomer experience initiatives.
Leaders are often tasked withimproving service delivery based
on customer feedback.
This requires empathy,cross-functional coordination,
and continuous improvementtraining.
(21:41):
Another example is crisiscommunications protocols.
In corporate settings, leadersmust be trained to respond to PR
crisis, data breaches, oroperational failures.
These protocols often includesimulations and media training,
which is another form ofembedded learning.
And finally, successionplanning.
Identifying and mentoring futureleaders is a strategic
(22:03):
imperative.
Organizations embed leadershipdevelopment into performance
reviews, stretch assignments,and coaching programs.
So whether it's incident commandin a hospital or audit prep in a
corporate office, the principlesare the same.
Leadership development is mostpowerful when it's embedded into
the fabric of daily operations.
(22:23):
It's not a separate track, it'sthe track.
And when leaders embracelearning as part of their role,
they don't just meetexpectations, they actually
elevate them.
SPEAKER_01 (22:34):
And that's the point of today's podcast.
That really is the essence ofit.
Have a training strategy,understand what's embedded in
your organization that can helpyou complement that leadership
training itself.
So if you like what you'veheard, I've written a book
called Building Your LeadershipToolbox, and we talk about tools
(22:56):
like this.
And it's available on Amazon andBarnes and Noble and other
sites.
The podcast is what you've beenlistening to.
Thank you so much.
It's also available on Apple,Google, and Spotify.
A lot of what we talk about isfrom Dr.
Durst and his MBR program.
If you'd like to know more aboutDr.
Durst, you can find out onSuccessGrowth Academy.com.
(23:17):
And if you'd like to contact us,please send me a line.
It's wando seventy five periodjwat gmail.com.
And the music has been broughtto you by my grandson.
So we want to hear from you.
Drop me a line.
Tell me what's going on, whatyou like, and what you would
like to hear about.
(23:38):
It has always helped us tocreate content.
Thanks, Greg.
This was fun.
SPEAKER_00 (23:44):
Thanks, John.
As always.
Next time.
Yeah.
Well, hello, and welcome to our podcast, Success,
Secrets, and Stories.
I'm your host, John Wondolowski,and I'm here with my co-host and
friend, Greg Powell.
Greg?
Hey everybody.
And when we put together thispodcast, we wanted to put out a
helping hand and help that nextgeneration and help answer the
(00:35):
question of what does it mean tobe a leader?
Today we want to talk about asubject that I think supports
that concept.
So the term embedded leadershipis an interesting term.
And it really is saying thatthere's something already in
(00:56):
your culture, in your businessculture, that you could use as a
tool for leadership.
And more importantly, you wantto encourage continuous
education.
So looking for ways of utilizinguh leadership and leadership
development should never be aone-time event.
(01:17):
It should be a lifelong mindset.
Now, one of my interestingexperiences in the healthcare
industry was one of the clearestexamples of that mindset.
To shape an environment whereleaders is really trying to look
at development and going beyondwhat is the exception.
Healthcare demands constantadaptations.
(01:41):
And staying relevant requirescontinuous learning across
multiple domains, multipledepartments.
The best example of leadershipstarts with the understanding of
organizational legalrequirements and reporting
requirements.
And if you don't understandthose requirements that are core
to your job, you're probably notgoing to succeed overall.
SPEAKER_00 (02:06):
So I know your background, John, is rooted in
healthcare.
Can you expand on how theenvironment of compliance of
reporting requirements fosters aculture of learning?
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01 (02:18):
There are all kinds of continuous education
requirements within thehealthcare industry and
basically any kind oforganization.
There's OSHA requirements forladder safety and fire safety
and slipfalls that you have todo on a regular basis.
And then there's something alittle bit more involved, like
FEMA, that are doing things thatare associated with emergency
(02:42):
incident command.
And they're both driven asrequirements for your teams to
be trained on to understand therequirements.
But most of all, it's really tocreate the safest work
environment.
And in the hospital environment,it was the most healing
(03:04):
environment that you can create.
Those were all those generationsof what the government agencies
are really trying to accomplish.
And the sad part is a lot ofthat is generated from people
who have done damage or have hadincidents that had to be
addressed.
A lot of these requirements arecoming from that format of where
it has failed.
SPEAKER_00 (03:24):
You know, that sounds like an awful lot to
manage, John.
So let's break it down.
How does continuous educationapply specifically to the idea
of embedding leadership skills?
SPEAKER_01 (03:36):
Let me explain.
Continuous education inleadership isn't just about
formal education, it's aboutmentoring, peer learning,
cultivating curiosity.
Leaders must foster thatcooperation.
And especially in high pressuresituations, they have to be able
(03:58):
to find that common ground andthat common language.
Probably one of the bestexamples I've seen as far as
incident command training iswhere those department silos
start to dissolve into leadersfrom different departments like
nursing and facilities andbiomed and other departments
start to collaborate and createand resolve problems in real
(04:21):
time.
SPEAKER_00 (04:22):
So what you're suggesting is that incident
command should be treated as aregular training activity?
SPEAKER_01 (04:28):
Yes.
And it's a quarterlyrequirement, but I have seen
applications where they practicemonthly to ensure that the team
can demonstrate readiness forincident command.
But it's also a wonderfulopportunity to respond to
pressure and also see how theteam unifies rather than isolate
departments that are struggling.
(04:49):
That teamwork, that groundworkof leadership, communication,
adaptability starts to bedemonstrated in these kinds of
environments.
SPEAKER_00 (04:56):
So I can see, John, how management would use
incident command to strengthenleadership cooperation, team
building, compliance, alignment.
It makes total sense.
SPEAKER_01 (05:06):
Yeah, exactly.
And with healthcare rapidlychanging with technology and the
regulatory landscape, leadersmust constantly learn to stay
compliant and to be effective.
Incident command drills alsoreinforce interdepartmental
communication and they formalizeit.
And that is something that isboth a practice and a real skill
(05:28):
set that's needed in anemergency.
SPEAKER_00 (05:31):
So how does communication evolve across
different incident commandscenarios?
SPEAKER_01 (05:38):
And we've talked about that whole thing about
communication, how important itis.
And the whole thing of incidentcommand is a wonderful microcosm
of communication.
In some drills, externalagencies like the fire
department are involved.
And they actually create aparallel incident command
structure.
And then you see the example ofhow the hospital handles
(06:01):
incident command and how thefire department handles the
incident command, and then howthey coordinate as independent
resources and create a commongoal and a common approach.
All those things you're lookingfor as far as a leader, you have
a perfect teaching format rightthere in your hands that you
need to exercise with.
(06:22):
You need to try to bring otherpeople into that incident
command environment for them tolearn.
SPEAKER_00 (06:28):
So let's bring it back to that topic of
leadership.
How does this help leadersbecome more adaptive and
learning oriented?
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (06:37):
I guess that's kind of my point.
Incident command is more than adrill, it is really a leadership
lab.
It teaches that learning is acareer-long requirement.
It also builds relationshipsacross departments, giving
leaders a face-to-face and aname to associate it with roles
that they might never otherwiseengage in.
(07:01):
This connection acceleratestrust and collaboration because
they have some history and theyhave common goals that they both
share.
SPEAKER_00 (07:10):
So, John, thanks for explaining it the way you did.
Now I see why you emphasizeincident command.
It's a powerful tool for bothorganizational cohesion and
leadership development.
SPEAKER_01 (07:20):
Yeah, exactly.
And it's no accident that thefrequencies of these exercises
are sometimes tied directly tohow well a leader can
communicate and coordinate withtheir peers.
It's that feedback loop, thatpractice loop of involvement and
making sure that the leads areinvolved in deeper learning.
And the secret here is that ifyou don't do a good job in that
(07:44):
leadership role on incidentcommand, you might have a
limited opportunities foradvancement.
But if you do a great job ofleadership, it's also a
wonderful opportunity to proveto executive management that
you're ready for more.
I've always impressed uponindividuals that I want them to
succeed.
Their opinions and their talentsare what makes a lasting
(08:06):
difference by empowering them tolearn, to take ownership, not
only of their assignment, butthe environment in which they're
working in and influence thesurroundings.
We're cultivating thatleadership skill.
And from the ground up, incidentcommand is actually testing
everyone within thatenvironment.
(08:26):
Those people who actually areinvolved in a real incident
command will start to shinebecause they've learned this
process over time.
SPEAKER_00 (08:38):
And by setting that example, John, I'll bet the rest
of the staff began to adopt theapproach as well.
Is that what you saw?
I did.
SPEAKER_01 (08:46):
And that reinforcement, that idea of
personal responsibility, itoften shifted the conversation
towards staff development afterthe incident command event
happened.
I'd ask what they would need totake that next step, whether it
be technical training orbecoming better tradespeople,
and being able to communicateand express what they are trying
(09:09):
to do in that incident commandrole.
SPEAKER_00 (09:13):
So going through continuous education, you also
shifted the language.
It became more about what did welearn instead of who is a blame.
We've talked before about fingerpointing.
It eliminates that.
But what strikes me is how yourapproach models respect,
especially towards the mechanicor the technician and their
expertise.
(09:33):
The secret seems to be listeningand using that as a tool to
foster an adult learningmindset.
Exactly.
SPEAKER_01 (09:41):
And you put it perfectly.
That really is trying to pushthem to understand leadership in
a small level.
And then they're learning as ateam, and they have that shared
experience and knowledge thatthey've crafted from those
events.
It's that mutual learning, thatmutual trust that starts to
expand and actually grow.
SPEAKER_00 (10:03):
So you've also shared examples of more formal
ways to embed a culture oflearning, like developing SAT
through structured roles.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (10:13):
I've seen organizations actually elevate
support team members andentry-level supervisors on how
effective that they were able tohandle these events.
And what I did is I would takepeople who I thought had
potential and I would let themtake some of the lead in some of
those conversations and givethem a taste of leadership.
(10:35):
Sometimes I would put them incharge of facility subgroups so
that they would be able toreport to me and I could respond
to the executive team.
That really didn't cost anythingin terms of special training,
but it was so significant interms of exposure, not only
internally to our team to buildthat trust, but also for the
(10:56):
other department managers andsupervisors to see the skill set
that we had in our owndepartment.
SPEAKER_00 (11:02):
So let's wait a minute here.
You promoted people without amajor budget hit.
How did that work?
SPEAKER_01 (11:08):
Yeah, well, our structures were pretty small,
but when I made the suggestionof finding team leads rather
than just supervisors, weweren't talking about a huge
increase in pay.
And the payoff really was theway I presented it is that we
could reduce overtime, we couldexpand operational coverage, and
(11:29):
most of all, we could enhanceleadership influence.
A lot of what we're looking forin terms of hospitals or any
organization is helping thoseresponsibilities and helping
those key players understandwhat's required of them and kind
of like setting goals for themto achieve.
SPEAKER_00 (11:48):
So I'm going to go out on a limb here, but I think
you probably had to have thoseresults audited just to prove
the value you promised.
SPEAKER_01 (11:55):
Yeah, because people wanted to make sure that it was
worth the money.
And executives would ask melater just how was that being
accomplished?
Um what I really wanted to makesure is that they had clear
takeaways, that there was thisapproach to expanding leadership
responsibilities from thesesmall teams, and how that would
really be a benefit to thehospital 24-7 environment.
(12:20):
What I'm really talking abouthere is building a bench for
future advancement.
And that's something that wasmissing.
And that whole benchconversation is actually
something healthcare is dealingwith now.
Succession planning is critical.
This approach creates leadershipdepth without really excessive
spending.
(12:41):
And it's inspired otherdepartments to do the same thing
because it's really rooted incontinued learning and
continuous teaching.
SPEAKER_00 (12:50):
So, John, way back in the day, I heard the quote
culture eats strategy forbreakfast.
All right.
It's not just what you teach,but it's how you live what you
teach.
Your team lead strategy wentbeyond task completion.
It fostered listening, itfostered cohesion and leadership
from within.
And I imagine those leads had abetter feel for the trades.
(13:11):
So were they bettercommunicators or better
technicians?
SPEAKER_01 (13:15):
Well, that's kind of like the heart of it.
Most leads excel in one of thetwo areas.
Either they're very good atcommunicators or they're very
good technicians, but they'reusually, they don't have both of
those skills, and that's whatyou're trying to develop.
Every lead I have worked withwere always talented within the
(13:35):
business environment.
But they were never given avoice in the old management
structure to actually give theiropinion and be part of the
process.
Watching their eyes and justseeing the effect on their face
when they're sitting at thetable with executive management
getting their first chance togive their views and their
(13:56):
insights to an executive team,it's transformative.
And it's transformative for themand then for you.
Because you've had an actualhand in helping them take that
next step.
Many people that I have helpedadvance also learned that this
(14:17):
is a continual learning processand it's a leadership principle.
SPEAKER_00 (14:22):
So, John, you took the opportunity to provide
modeling for your supervisors,delegating responsibility and
giving them a voice.
Exactly.
SPEAKER_01 (14:30):
And I wanted my managers to have the same
opportunity so that they couldgrow and they would have the
exposure to executivemanagement.
So both the hourly and thesupervisory level are getting
that opportunity to take my rolesomeday.
And if you don't practice whatyou preach, it's never going to
give you that kind of returnthat you're looking for.
SPEAKER_00 (14:54):
So the incident command example and model looks
fantastic.
But what if your organizationdoesn't have something like
incident command?
SPEAKER_01 (15:01):
Yeah, well, I've worked in manufacturing and
higher ed and hospitalorganizations.
They actually all have incidentcommand.
And they have emergencies andthey have defined communication
roles.
Different organizations takeincident command, whether they
practice it, whether theyactually have executive
management involvement.
(15:22):
But sooner or later theyunderstand that there's a risk
involved.
And if they don't have incidentcommand, unfortunately, they
really do need to have somethingin place.
More importantly, executivemanagement has an opportunity to
test teams to see whether theycan handle real life
emergencies.
I can't think of an applicationwhere it wouldn't benefit an
(15:43):
organization to have incidentcommand procedures and
requirements defined.
SPEAKER_00 (15:49):
John, I can see the importance of that.
But any places where folks canfind this information, this
information associated withincident command, if it's
something that they've neverdone before?
SPEAKER_01 (16:00):
Yes, there are.
And really my favorite isincident command.
And incident uh command isactually uh governed by the
National Institute ManagementSystem, which is NIMS, which is
overseen by FEMA, FederalEmergency Management Agency.
And good grief, if you try toget any more acronyms in in the
(16:22):
business world, you're probablyin healthcare.
But if you're looking for theinformation, www.fema.gov is
actually the best place tostart.
And the real key here forIncident Command is hitting the
Incident Command Systems400-level classes.
(16:44):
And yes, there's a level 100, alevel 200, and a level 300.
But what they're really tryingto do is teach you some very
basic components of IncidentCommand, the command and general
structure and roles, to talkabout unified command or
multi-jurisdictional ormulti-agency incidents occur and
(17:08):
how those are handled.
Area command in terms ofstructure and responsibility,
complex incident managementstrategies to try to handle some
of the variables that you'regoing to see, and integral
coordination and communication.
Greg, have you ever heardcommunication more often than
when we talk about what isinvolved in management?
(17:31):
It's like the very basic of anyof these projects in terms of
learning.
Communication is probably themost important.
Now, upon completion, uhparticipants will understand
their role in terms of alarge-scale incident.
How to actually apply the ICSprinciples in terms of complex
(17:55):
applications.
But more importantly, tounderstand that coordinating
effectively with multipleagencies and jurisdictions
really requires to plan, tolead, to cooperate, and also be
part of the process.
(18:16):
It is a great format for peopleto understand.
It's like with my point, it's aleadership lab and it's all
there.
It's that soup that as soon asyou start to mix it, you
actually can use that as a toolof training.
SPEAKER_00 (18:30):
So in my world, specifically in human resources,
I didn't really have anapplication for incident
command.
We participated in biggerincident command situations if
there was a people issue oropportunity.
But can you give an office-basedexample of what would be
relevant here?
SPEAKER_01 (18:46):
Okay.
Yeah.
Uh probably uh moremanufacturing-based would be an
audit.
Whether it be a financial auditor a regulatory audit, they are
a structured leadershiprequirement that falls right
back into that continuouslearning uh side of the
business.
Take uh Sox Oxley compliance,for instance.
(19:07):
Organizations are trainingadministrators to understand the
spreadsheets, report protocol,and handle external
communication to meet the legalstandards.
That's all in incident command.
It's the same thing.
Even something as fundamental aspreparing an annual report
involves embedding leadership.
(19:29):
It's not just accounting, it'scoordinating across departments,
understanding profit and loss,and ensuring that every
contributor knows how their workfits into the bigger picture.
Training audits isn't a one-timeevent.
Teams rehearse the process,assign spokespeople, refine
communication to their auditors'expectations.
(19:51):
It's continuous learning inaction, especially when leaders
use it to reduce risk andimprove transparency.
SPEAKER_00 (19:58):
So, what you're really saying, John, is that
continuous learning applies inalmost any institution.
Exactly.
It's not just about compliance,it's about competency.
SPEAKER_01 (20:09):
Whether you're in healthcare or finance or
education or you're a technicianor you're a leader, you have all
these embedded systems that needand demand support, whether it's
accountability, adaptability, orcooperation, those are all those
skills that leadership has todemonstrate.
So additional examples ofembedded learning opportunities.
(20:31):
One of them is projectmanagement from my construction
days, where you have yourregular reviews and you have
leaders reflecting on the workand how they did it and how they
need to improve.
And these sessions are a cultureof feedback and those
interactive learningopportunities.
(20:52):
Strategic planning cycles whereyou're doing an annual plan.
Sometimes we did asset plans, wedid capital equipment
opportunities and capitalbuilding opportunities.
All those things are trends interms of market and forecasting
and team alignments.
And they're using tools likeS-BAR and MBR concepts that we
(21:15):
were we talked about in the pastas all part of their regular
routine of operations.
SPEAKER_00 (21:20):
So, from my experience, I've seen a few
other applications of embeddedleadership requirements.
So they would be as followscustomer experience initiatives.
Leaders are often tasked withimproving service delivery based
on customer feedback.
This requires empathy,cross-functional coordination,
and continuous improvementtraining.
(21:41):
Another example is crisiscommunications protocols.
In corporate settings, leadersmust be trained to respond to PR
crisis, data breaches, oroperational failures.
These protocols often includesimulations and media training,
which is another form ofembedded learning.
And finally, successionplanning.
Identifying and mentoring futureleaders is a strategic
(22:03):
imperative.
Organizations embed leadershipdevelopment into performance
reviews, stretch assignments,and coaching programs.
So whether it's incident commandin a hospital or audit prep in a
corporate office, the principlesare the same.
Leadership development is mostpowerful when it's embedded into
the fabric of daily operations.
(22:23):
It's not a separate track, it'sthe track.
And when leaders embracelearning as part of their role,
they don't just meetexpectations, they actually
elevate them.
SPEAKER_01 (22:34):
And that's the point of today's podcast.
That really is the essence ofit.
Have a training strategy,understand what's embedded in
your organization that can helpyou complement that leadership
training itself.
So if you like what you'veheard, I've written a book
called Building Your LeadershipToolbox, and we talk about tools
(22:56):
like this.
And it's available on Amazon andBarnes and Noble and other
sites.
The podcast is what you've beenlistening to.
Thank you so much.
It's also available on Apple,Google, and Spotify.
A lot of what we talk about isfrom Dr.
Durst and his MBR program.
If you'd like to know more aboutDr.
Durst, you can find out onSuccessGrowth Academy.com.
(23:17):
And if you'd like to contact us,please send me a line.
It's wando seventy five periodjwat gmail.com.
And the music has been broughtto you by my grandson.
So we want to hear from you.
Drop me a line.
Tell me what's going on, whatyou like, and what you would
like to hear about.
(23:38):
It has always helped us tocreate content.
Thanks, Greg.
This was fun.
SPEAKER_00 (23:44):
Thanks, John.
As always.
Next time.
Yeah.
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